If someone claims that they are an unlynchable, unkillable, octa-voter, with 4 daykills and 6 doc-protects, then technically lynching that person solely based on his claim would be gaming the mod, but I would be just fine doing that.
I won't protest the vote, but I really don't want him to get speedlynched before at least a few more people actually read the damn thread.
Here are my comments:
I have read through Keeper's defence a couple times and it hasn't really made any sort of impact on me to be certain of his innocence. Although I have defended Keeper previously, I have to say that my opinion has changed as a result of his lacking defence. His first claim of being town and against the mafia was about as underwhelming as it can get. Then he subsequently expanded on his claim, but everything I've read from him is really bland in its nature, and he seems not to be really ardently defending himself, mostly sitting on the fact that he claimed and instantly expecting a change of voting direction. Honestly, I would think that someone near lynching would be taking the initiative to make their own arguments for their defence, rather than just waiting to respond and try to dodge the attacks of others; but maybe that's just me.
Right now I wouldn't have any problem putting in the final vote, however as a few people still have yet to comment I'll wait until tomorrow morning to officially type it in.
Or maybe it's just another gambit to trip up scum. I'd appreciate it if you would stop forcing me to out all of my game strategies. Please?
If you continue to use game strategies that feel odd and suspicious, I'm going to call you on them. Erratic behavior is almost as bad as errant behavior.
For all we know, he could be scum trying to scope out potential power roles.
Take a look at my questions and tell me how they could be construed as fishing.
Quote from AI »
As stated, I invite scrutiny and examination. It's good for the town to stay alert. I would prefer it, however, if my hand were not forced in these situations. Being able to play as I choose is a good thing for the town.
This assumes that you know what you're doing. And that you're town. Slight fearmongering noted.
Also, saying that at times you "make posts that can be interpreted in more than one way" seems scummy to me. The way that I understand that is you are saying that you act scummy on purpose sometimes. That doesn't seem like it would be good for the town at any time, because making yourself more suspicious if you are town is bad because it could result in lynching you. I don't see how the scum would be tricked into revealing themselves from you acting scummy, but that could just be me being new. Nothing seems really scummy, not enough to warrant a vote or even a FoS, but I think it is worth noting.
This is a big hangup for me when it comes to AI: Acting "ambiguous" feels like shifty scum trying to cover his erratic tracks. I don't like it, especially if it's gambit after ploy after gambit.
Response to Point 2: So you, like Cantrip before you, decide to sow the seeds of suspicion against me, but neither of you commits to even an FoS? This itself seems suspicious. Ironically, this is also not worth an FoS, so I'll just be the pot that's as black as the kettle.
Right now my vote is on KoZ, who I still have major concerns with. I've voiced my questions about your behavior. That's enough for now.
EDIT: additional info on flavor: if betrayers are caught, a promotion might be in order and with entailing benefits.
Oh, this feel SCUMMY. I dislike the little "add-in". The edit feels like it's reinforcement of false information, added incentive not to lynch, as it were. On top of that, gaining abilities isn't "additional info on flavor," but is actually gameplay. Vote definitely stands.
The weird thing is that Keeper's claim actually makes sense given what we know.
IMO, he has shifted to "on the scummy side of neutral" after the claim.
? O.o Really. Interesting.
Quote from AI »
Thoughts?
Looking for direction from the town or someone else?
While tunnel vision isn't a scum-tell on its own, it also certainly isn't a good strategy. When combined with an almost blind disregard of relevant scummy behavior, it's downright bad for the town.
I have a hard time believing that SP is town based on his latest posts.
FoS Silent Prophet
I would like to hear what others think on this issue before we end the day so we have more to work with at the start of Day Two.
I don't find his actions as scummy as you seem to, but they're not overly town in any case. Still, I think there are scummier.
I'm inclined to believe 3. 5 doesn't seem all that likely and 4 and 2 I just don't see happening in a basic game. So I'm left with 3 and 1. Beleiving 1 requires me to ignore all his scummy behaviour and to assume that the flavour was just a red herring so I'm going to go with 3.
Agreed. Odd element for a basic game (although each mod will likely do something to keep each game fresh), and he's still acting scummy.
Honestly, though, (and I know this makes my previous statements pretty much pointless) I'm leaning towards 3. The extra 'flavour' doesn't make a lot of sense, and it makes me pause that he added it as an edit, as if he thought "hmm, maybe I should add something extra to help persuade them not to lynch me, cause being just a vanilla townie probably won't do it."
But did it every occur to you that I might have added that to make things clearer on everyone else's part and associating that with careful paraphrasing as to avoid being modkilled can then be the source of what you said earlier?: (see below.)
Why not do it within the same post? Why add it like an afterthought?
Quote from KoZ »
So you're saying that just because I gave a claim that seems to you as 'the most vanilla claim available' and the fact that I gave it at the moment that it's at L-2 (which is a understandable moment to claim), you are still hell-bent on me being scum? And you're saying that without any further explanation?
A little close-minded for a townie, don't you think?
Feels like flailing. It wasn't just "the most vanilla claim available", it was a claim nearly without content. Your initial "claim" gave what everyone essentially projects from the start: I'm town; I hate the scum. Woo. What was that designed to tell us? And you gave it at L-2...after being at that point for multiple days and being requested to do so multiple times. If you were away from the game for awhile, that's understandable. But to come back and post your "claim"...yes, you come off as scummy.
AI still bears watching, but KoZ's "add-on" claim cinches it for me: vote most definitely stands on KoZ.
But while we're at it: AsianInvasion:
1) Why do you say that the claim makes sense given what we know?
2) Why do feel that KoZ's claim makes him less scummy?
1.AsianInvasion: Scummy-to-neutral, not against a lynch. Was first player to serious-vote Keeper, but is not waiting for others to comment on game state.
8.KeeperofZion: Claimed vanilla town. Has not been emotional, nor overly defensive.
You say you're not against a lynch, but then your "description" for KoZ is a subtle defense. I'm getting conflicting vibes here.
Quote from AI »
Also, do you care to comment on what your ideas are for Day Two?
Do you care to comment on why this feels like fishing? If Gamerz (who you don't seem to identify as scummy) has stated that he has suspicions for a subsequent day, but chooses not to clarify them, why would you go digging?
Just a heads-up, I may have to request replacement due to real-life things.
However, even if I end up replaced, I will do my best to get a couple of posts in before then to explain why I didn't comment on KoZ and on other issues. I am sorry that my activity level has been detrimental thus far this game.
If you continue to use game strategies that feel odd and suspicious, I'm going to call you on them. Erratic behavior is almost as bad as errant behavior.
Take a look at my questions and tell me how they could be construed as fishing.
You asked, "Do townies need disclaimers?" As a way of attacking me indirectly. I stated that I would prefer if you didn't try to make me reveal all of my game plans. Players who are overly interested in the game strategies of others could very well be scum scouting for power roles.
This is a big hangup for me when it comes to AI: Acting "ambiguous" feels like shifty scum trying to cover his erratic tracks. I don't like it, especially if it's gambit after ploy after gambit.
Feel free to question me on it if I survive the night and continue to make posts that are ambiguous...unless you want to try to overturn the entire Keeper bandwagon and get me lynched today.
Call. Not even you would be so ballsy.
But while we're at it: AsianInvasion:
1) Why do you say that the claim makes sense given what we know?
2) Why do feel that KoZ's claim makes him less scummy?
Infrared Citizen 56EA426, Neutral Corpse has died.
In the middle of typing this post, I reread Keeper's claim and my own role information. My role info contains nothing about where I work or what I do for a living, just that I'm constantly working. (Yes, I know what I just did.) Also, doesn't working with waste feel like something scum would do? (Garbage and scum being nearly synonymous.)
Based on this line of thinking, I'm ready to hammer Keeper.
Does anyone have any last-minute comments to make?
I guess you might want to hear why I believed otherwise earlier.
We know that Infrared Citizen is probably the vanilla townie role title. (As an interesting note, my alphanumerical designation contains eight characters, rather than seven. I'm not sure if this is relevant, or just an oversight on the Computer's part.)
I assumed that Keeper wasn't scum because scum-Keeper wouldn't realize that he should false-claim his color-clearance when claiming, but in retrospect this is terrible logic.
EWP:
You say you're not against a lynch, but then your "description" for KoZ is a subtle defense. I'm getting conflicting vibes here.
I wasn't against the lynch, but I did want people to wait until more players had checked in. (Yeah, that's probably the twentieth time I've said that.)
Do you care to comment on why this feels like fishing? If Gamerz (who you don't seem to identify as scummy) has stated that he has suspicions for a subsequent day, but chooses not to clarify them, why would you go digging?
If he wanted to share, I would appreciate if he would, especially since he has a pretty good chance of getting NK'd, being one of the more active and logical players in this game.
You'll notice that I didn't pressure him at all, I just told him that I was interested in hearing his thoughts.
Just a heads-up, I may have to request replacement due to real-life things.
However, even if I end up replaced, I will do my best to get a couple of posts in before then to explain why I didn't comment on KoZ and on other issues. I am sorry that my activity level has been detrimental thus far this game.
Sorry to hear that things aren't going well for you.
However, it's interesting to see that you have a reason for not commenting on Keeper's situation.
To repeat, I am seeking last-minute comments before I hammer Keeper.
So now you try to put suspicion on your attackers...
The claim is a pretty null tell for me. It's a vanilla claim and while the flavour seems to match up, it could easily be that you're scum with that flavour. It certainly doesn't excuse all your scummy behaviour and the fact that you're dodging my questions.
Why are you dodging my questions exactly?
I didn't put suspicion on him because he is one of my attackers, but because of his post. That's it, period. And what made you think that I'm dodging your questions? As far as I know, I've been answering them. I've even asked you on what questions you said that i've missed so that I could answer them.
Quote from Gamerz »
Yes, that did occur to me, however, it was the fact that you didn't include it with the original full claim that makes it seem a little suspicious. I mean, why wouldn't you have put it in with the original post to begin with? 'Forgetting' to include it doesn't seem as likely to me.
Try claiming and after posting it, you realize that you forgot to add something in it that you deemed important. Won't you do as I did and add it up with another post? Again, careful paraphrasing was one of the reasons why i forgot to add it. I wanted to make sure that I wouldn't be modkilled because of careless paraphrasing. And while focusing on that, I forgot to add that part since I already posted it.
Quote from bman56 »
I have read through Keeper's defence a couple times and it hasn't really made any sort of impact on me to be certain of his innocence. Although I have defended Keeper previously, I have to say that my opinion has changed as a result of his lacking defence. His first claim of being town and against the mafia was about as underwhelming as it can get. Then he subsequently expanded on his claim, but everything I've read from him is really bland in its nature, and he seems not to be really ardently defending himself, mostly sitting on the fact that he claimed and instantly expecting a change of voting direction. Honestly, I would think that someone near lynching would be taking the initiative to make their own arguments for their defence, rather than just waiting to respond and try to dodge the attacks of others; but maybe that's just me.
Again with the dodging. As I said, I wasn't dodging attacks as you assume that I have been. I was trying to answer all the questions asked to me, clearing up things, especially the fact that most of you think that my actions have been scummy and fail to understand the reasons why I posted as such.
Quote from Cantipmancer »
Oh, this feel SCUMMY. I dislike the little "add-in". The edit feels like it's reinforcement of false information, added incentive not to lynch, as it were. On top of that, gaining abilities isn't "additional info on flavor," but is actually gameplay. Vote definitely stands.
I already gave my argument on this around two times already. Again, try to understand my reasoning and to compare it to yourself if you were in my shoes. Because if you did, you would understand why I added it.
Quote from Cantripmancer »
Feels like flailing. It wasn't just "the most vanilla claim available", it was a claim nearly without content. Your initial "claim" gave what everyone essentially projects from the start: I'm town; I hate the scum. Woo. What was that designed to tell us? And you gave it at L-2...after being at that point for multiple days and being requested to do so multiple times. If you were away from the game for awhile, that's understandable. But to come back and post your "claim"...yes, you come off as scummy.
The reason why I wasn't able to claim after so long that it was being asked for is because of how my life took control over my free time. It was not because I was dodging it, but because I really had no opportunity to do it. You also need to understand that my initial claim was such because it is my first claim ever. I'm sure you were once new to mafia as well, and you had to claim for the first time. Wouldn't you not know how to effectively claim as other, more experienced players expect you to?
Quote from AI »
In the middle of typing this post, I reread Keeper's claim and my own role information. My role info contains nothing about where I work or what I do for a living, just that I'm constantly working. (Yes, I know what I just did.) Also, doesn't working with waste feel like something scum would do? (Garbage and scum being nearly synonymous.)
Your last statement seemed to me as if you were grabbing any accusation you could see in my claim to justify for your thinking that i'm scum. I must ask you, so just because that I happen to work where waste is and the fact that the word garbage is synonymous with scum, it's already certain that I am scum and that you feel that that is already enough reason? For me, this is a weak argument.
I didn't put suspicion on him because he is one of my attackers, but because of his post. That's it, period. And what made you think that I'm dodging your questions? As far as I know, I've been answering them. I've even asked you on what questions you said that i've missed so that I could answer them.
1) You called Gamerz's OCD a scumtell. After you recieved a bunch of flak for it AI asked if you still believed that OCD was a scumtell. You said:
Originally Posted by Keeperofzion Actually, not anymore. Because now it is quite clear to me that when Cantripmancer accused Gamerz of being OCD and thus showing that he is scum, it was because it was only during the random voting stage.
How does what Cantripmancer thinks about the OCD affect what you think of the OCD? Why did you think it was a scumtell originally and then later thought it was not a scumtell?
2) You said that you can see the long posts that AI made as being a scumtell and also as not being a scumtell, yet you decided that AI was scum based on that. How did you reach this conclusion if you also saw a way that he wasn't scum there?
3) (Not in the linked post but in a later one).
If you are a townie why would you ask me to provide reasons that I'm not your scumbuddy? If you are a townie than by definition I can't be your scumbuddy.
You asked, "Do townies need disclaimers?" As a way of attacking me indirectly. I stated that I would prefer if you didn't try to make me reveal all of my game plans. Players who are overly interested in the game strategies of others could very well be scum scouting for power roles.
I still don't see hoe he was really 'fishing' though, at least, anymore than you were trying to 'fish' me. Considering your statement about 'expect a change in playstyle', I think it's natural to want to know what that's about, and doesn't make him seem 'overly' curious at all.
Feel free to question me on it if I survive the night and continue to make posts that are ambiguous...unless you want to try to overturn the entire Keeper bandwagon and get me lynched today.
Call. Not even you would be so ballsy.
And even if you were scum, there wouldn't be much of a point right now. It'd seem more wise to go after someone who is a much more likely candidate.
"Hey guys, I know we're about to lynch Player X, but Player Y is scummy too! Let's try to lynch him tomorrow!"
Why did you state that? I don't see anything wrong with Cantripmancer stating what you responded to there and this response seems very 'OMGUS' to me.
In the middle of typing this post, I reread Keeper's claim and my own role information. My role info contains nothing about where I work or what I do for a living, just that I'm constantly working. (Yes, I know what I just did.) Also, doesn't working with waste feel like something scum would do? (Garbage and scum being nearly synonymous.)
Based on this line of thinking, I'm ready to hammer Keeper.
Does anyone have any last-minute comments to make?
Yeah, that seems like such a reach. Working with waste seems scummy to you? Are you freakin' kidding me?!? This seems like gaming the mod to the extreme.
I guess you might want to hear why I believed otherwise earlier.
We know that Infrared Citizen is probably the vanilla townie role title. (As an interesting note, my alphanumerical designation contains eight characters, rather than seven. I'm not sure if this is relevant, or just an oversight on the Computer's part.)
I assumed that Keeper wasn't scum because scum-Keeper wouldn't realize that he should false-claim his color-clearance when claiming, but in retrospect this is terrible logic.
For all we know, the scum have a colour-clearance as well. So yeah, definitely terrible logic. I just find it hard to believe that it is one you could make.
If someone claims that they are an unlynchable, unkillable, octa-voter, with 4 daykills and 6 doc-protects, then technically lynching that person solely based on his claim would be gaming the mod, but I would be just fine doing that.
I don't know if nom is town or scum. But I'd like to point out this type of behavior is his standard modus operandi.
Court Mafia: Day 1, hatch plan to KILL EVERYONE ELSE IN A SINGLE NIGHT, when the plan only allows him to hit 11 random players, ATTEMPTS TO FIRE ANYHOW (Roleblocked).
In other words....Nom is an impulsive player who doesn't think about planning long-term or listening to others. I wouldn't be surprised if he was town. At all.
Almost everyone has had their opinion on this, and we've mostly reached a consensus with two others also willing to finish the vote. The arguments presented are also beginning to become cyclical, so lets see if we were correct in our reasoning and move on to another day.
The crowd pushes Keeper toward the disintegration chute.
“Who are you?” they cry, “five of us want to know, so tell us!”
After a good long silence, the crowd becomes impatient. Keeper hesitates, and the jeering continues.
“Wait! I'm just an infrared citizen. I work in garbage disposal. Please, don't kill me.” He pauses a moment, then continues, “I just wanted a promotion.”
Everyone turns to one another, and they discuss the possibility for a moment. Then someone cries out, “BURN HIM ANYWAY!” and the group surges, forcing him sideways down the shaft.
After a long pause, a printout descends from the ceiling.
Spectrum analysis reveals disintegrated citizen to be Infrared Citizen 4A452XB. No record of suspected treachery.
Everyone stalks of gloomily. Another loyal citizen lost to the traitorous menace.
It is now night 1. Please have night choices in by midnight on Thursday the thirteenth.
I don't know if nom is town or scum. But I'd like to point out this type of behavior is his standard modus operandi.
Court Mafia: Day 1, hatch plan to KILL EVERYONE ELSE IN A SINGLE NIGHT, when the plan only allows him to hit 11 random players, ATTEMPTS TO FIRE ANYHOW (Roleblocked).
In other words....Nom is an impulsive player who doesn't think about planning long-term or listening to others. I wouldn't be surprised if he was town. At all.
I don't know if nom is town or scum. But I'd like to point out this type of behavior is his standard modus operandi.
Court Mafia: Day 1, hatch plan to KILL EVERYONE ELSE IN A SINGLE NIGHT, when the plan only allows him to hit 11 random players, ATTEMPTS TO FIRE ANYHOW (Roleblocked).
In other words....Nom is an impulsive player who doesn't think about planning long-term or listening to others. I wouldn't be surprised if he was town. At all.
The door bashed down. The walls smashed. Even the cleaning robot did not survive. Sadly, Avatar of Lag could not live without his head.
As everyone surveys the wreckage, someone thinks to count the number gaping in horror. It doesn't take long to realize AsianInvasion is absent. Everyone charges to his room, but he doesn't seem to be there. Upon closer inspection, a thin coating of dust seems to line his bed. It seems to be the only remains.
Avatar of Lag, Infrared Citizen 4E45M93 and AsianInvasion, Infrared Citizen 4E53EAC4, have both been killed. However, it is apparent neither were plotting the computer's downfall.
It is now day 2. With 9 remaining, it is 5 to lynch.
I don't know if nom is town or scum. But I'd like to point out this type of behavior is his standard modus operandi.
Court Mafia: Day 1, hatch plan to KILL EVERYONE ELSE IN A SINGLE NIGHT, when the plan only allows him to hit 11 random players, ATTEMPTS TO FIRE ANYHOW (Roleblocked).
In other words....Nom is an impulsive player who doesn't think about planning long-term or listening to others. I wouldn't be surprised if he was town. At all.
Hmm... I would have thought AI to be scum. Evidently someone else did too.
Re-read time.
Will be interested to hear Ace's reasons on Skander, I had him pegged as town.
Agreed. Welcome, Ace, and I anxiously await your thoughts. Skander's been playing very town, as far as I can tell. Not that that means anything. I figured AI for scum for sure...
That's funny, I was about to say the same about you. I know that you targeted Avatar of Lag last night. And now he's dead. Care to explain that?
Vote Ace
Playing that card so soon?
Really skander.
I did not target anybody last night.
I will go into the reasons for why Skander is scum in the coming days, but just a brief looking at the Day 1 lynch shows him prodding people for support, then backing off in order to allow others to make the mislynch, allowing for a "well, I didn't hammer or the like" later on.
I will go into the reasons for why Skander is scum in the coming days, but just a brief looking at the Day 1 lynch shows him prodding people for support, then backing off in order to allow others to make the mislynch, allowing for a "well, I didn't hammer or the like" later on.
oh, and
Vote Skander
Maybe you should do more than just a brief look at the wagon. I was on that wagon from the begining and never backed away from it - admittedly not exactly a plus but what you're accusing me of doing is totally false.
Maybe you should do more than just a brief look at the wagon. I was on that wagon from the begining and never backed away from it - admittedly not exactly a plus but what you're accusing me of doing is totally false.
Right. So explain the "you targetted AoL last night."
Unless Nom hasn't told me about something S_P had, an item or the like, there's no possible way I could have done anything last night.
You could have squirmed out of this by way of behavioural analysis Skander, but you played your trump card way too early. Now, it's simply unbelievable. Even if I do get lynched and when I turn up town, you'll be next.
Unless Nom hasn't told me about something S_P had, an item or the like, there's no possible way I could have done anything last night.
You could have squirmed out of this by way of behavioural analysis Skander, but you played your trump card way too early. Now, it's simply unbelievable. Even if I do get lynched and when I turn up town, you'll be next.
Throw a mislynch to divert attention from whoever set up the mislynches yesterday. Lynch me, claim cop tomorrow, fake godfather on lynchee, and win with a mislynch?
There are numerous possibilities.
You are scum, good sir. Your lack of content this far (simply denying through "nuh-uh!" is reasoning enough.
Tell me then, if you're not scum, who are my apparent buddies?
First of all...I feel like a fool. The big thing that made me finally decide to throw down my vote on Keeper and put him on L-1 was one word: Redinfra. I didn't notice it the first time I read it, but after reading his claim again, it made me think about why he would put 'Redinfra' and not "Infrared' like I assume most people in the town would be.
My thought was that maybe all the scum were labeled as 'Redinfra' and he didn't realize it. The reason I didn't say anything at the time was because I wondered if any of the other scum realized this and if Keeper was revealed as scum, I could use as a way to identify another scum who reveals his identity as 'Redinfra'.
However, obviously, it ended up being quite simple in that Keeper was doing that as part of his 'paraphrasing'. So of course, it threw me off, because merely re-arranging the letters in one's identity is not 'paraphrasing' at all, and, in fact, seems to me like it would be more of a 'tell' than anything else. I noticed, after he was revealed as town, that he also re-arranged the numbers and letters in his identity as well.
I just feel so foolish for not realizing this at all. I was almost completely convinced that Keeper was scum. And now AI and AoL are dead. I'm guessing there's a vigilante out there. At least I don't have to worry about whether AI is scum or town. I was really on the fence about him. Especially after his reasons for wanting to hammer Keeper.
Also: Ace, do you have any idea why SP was saying this?
However, even if I end up replaced, I will do my best to get a couple of posts in before then to explain why I didn't comment on KoZ and on other issues.
Will do some more re-reading. Just wanted to say how pissed off I am at myself for mis-reading things.
If someone claims that they are an unlynchable, unkillable, octa-voter, with 4 daykills and 6 doc-protects, then technically lynching that person solely based on his claim would be gaming the mod, but I would be just fine doing that.
First of all...I feel like a fool. The big thing that made me finally decide to throw down my vote on Keeper and put him on L-1 was one word: Redinfra. I didn't notice it the first time I read it, but after reading his claim again, it made me think about why he would put 'Redinfra' and not "Infrared' like I assume most people in the town would be.
My thought was that maybe all the scum were labeled as 'Redinfra' and he didn't realize it. The reason I didn't say anything at the time was because I wondered if any of the other scum realized this and if Keeper was revealed as scum, I could use as a way to identify another scum who reveals his identity as 'Redinfra'.
However, obviously, it ended up being quite simple in that Keeper was doing that as part of his 'paraphrasing'. So of course, it threw me off, because merely re-arranging the letters in one's identity is not 'paraphrasing' at all, and, in fact, seems to me like it would be more of a 'tell' than anything else. I noticed, after he was revealed as town, that he also re-arranged the numbers and letters in his identity as well.
Wow I can't believe I didn't notice the "redinfra" thing, that just makes everything so much more confusing. I have to agree here that I believe Keeper probably took the paraphrasing a bit too seriously. Since he was innocent and vanilla from the looks of it, I still can't fathom why he would withhold proper information from the town.
I'll be away until Monday, so look for my next post then.
As for the current clash between Ace and Skander here are my thoughts on each party:
1) Ace
-Can't really say too much here about previous history as Silent Prophet didn't post much of relevance until being replaced
Quote from Ace »
You could have squirmed out of this by way of behavioural analysis Skander, but you played your trump card way too early. Now, it's simply unbelievable.
-I seem to agree with this, as Skadner pushed back very hard on being threatened, indicating a high degree of pressure on his end to react
-Skadner is forcing an essentially "me-or-you" scenario, which is not really townie behaviour especially since we are already down 3 after 1 day and almost in lynch properly or lose scenario (I believe we lose if we lose 3 more town over the next day + night without killing a mafia)
Quote from Ace »
Throw a mislynch to divert attention from whoever set up the mislynches yesterday. Lynch me, claim cop tomorrow, fake godfather on lynchee, and win with a mislynch?
- Don't really understand the bolded part (my bolding; not original) above
-I'm very interested in hearing your (Ace's) arguments about Skander's behaviour over the previous day, as this will probably be a tipping factor one-way or another here.
2) Skander
-Seemed pretty townie early the previous day, probably need to reread the stuff regarding the progress of the lynch
- Could you please give us some more information regarding your ability at least
Quote from Skander »
What do you think?
-This comes across as really angry/arrogant, possible scum tell
-Can't really find anything else of Skander's quote worthy in this current exchange, just the ability claim
Throw a mislynch to divert attention from whoever set up the mislynches yesterday. Lynch me, claim cop tomorrow, fake godfather on lynchee, and win with a mislynch?
There are numerous possibilities.
I'm not claiming cop though.
You are scum, good sir. Your lack of content this far (simply denying through "nuh-uh!" is reasoning enough.
Tell me then, if you're not scum, who are my apparent buddies?
What do you mean lack of content?
As for your scumbuddies I don't have the slightest clue - I'll have to reread D1.
-I seem to agree with this, as Skadner pushed back very hard on being threatened, indicating a high degree of pressure on his end to react
-Skadner is forcing an essentially "me-or-you" scenario, which is not really townie behaviour especially since we are already down 3 after 1 day and almost in lynch properly or lose scenario (I believe we lose if we lose 3 more town over the next day + night without killing a mafia)
All Ace said was that I'm scum - no reasoning or anything to back it up; why would I feel pressured to react? Additionally this has no bearing since my claim is independent of him accusing me of scum.
Both you and Ace are assuming I felt pressured enough by a random comment that I'm scum to fake-claim information against Ace. This especially doesn't make sense since there was no case against me - why would I fake a claim where I could easily get out of the analysis (indeed Ace's first attempt at throwing something was very poorly put together) The risk/reward doesn't line up here.
- Could you please give us some more information regarding your ability at least
It's pretty obvious what I'm claiming if you read what I said. Still I'd rather not straight out claim it unless I have to.
-I seem to agree with this, as Skadner pushed back very hard on being threatened, indicating a high degree of pressure on his end to react
As Skander already said, if you're talking about Skander's original post in response to Ace, I don't really see it as 'pushing back hard upon being threatened'. It was Skander's first post since night, it was his first chance to present new evidence.
-Skadner is forcing an essentially "me-or-you" scenario, which is not really townie behaviour especially since we are already down 3 after 1 day and almost in lynch properly or lose scenario (I believe we lose if we lose 3 more town over the next day + night without killing a mafia)
Actually, the funny thing is, it didn't really turn me vs you until Ace said he didn't do anything last night. As it was, Ace could've claimed vigilante, saying he thought that AoL was his pick to most likely be scum. But since Ace claims he didn't do anything, now it's definitely turned into a 'me vs. you' situation.
Also, I don't see how a 'me vs. you' situation is 'not really townie behaviour'. When someone makes a cop claim, doesn't that usually devolve into a 'me vs. you' situation?
2) Skander
-Seemed pretty townie early the previous day, probably need to reread the stuff regarding the progress of the lynch
I agree. Reading through, I get the feeling almost entirely that Skander is town. The wagon accusation that Ace says doesn't seem to ring true, and regardless, I think the problem with using Keeper's wagon as a way of pinning someone is that...we were all on that wagon. I think the only person who said anything of the like that Keeper wasn't scum was AI, and, well, he's dead now.
I'm inclined to vote Ace because I don't find any reason to not believe Skander's accusation on him. I want to hear Ace's breakdown on what happened day 1 first, though.
If someone claims that they are an unlynchable, unkillable, octa-voter, with 4 daykills and 6 doc-protects, then technically lynching that person solely based on his claim would be gaming the mod, but I would be just fine doing that.
First off, sorry for not posting much recently. I've been a little busy over in the custom cards section trying to fulfill my duties as head organizer on the MCC this month, and things...got away from me.
Wow I can't believe I didn't notice the "redinfra" thing, that just makes everything so much more confusing. I have to agree here that I believe Keeper probably took the paraphrasing a bit too seriously. Since he was innocent and vanilla from the looks of it, I still can't fathom why he would withhold proper information from the town.
I sorta get the feeling that he just didn't know what was expected. Our failure, I suppose, in not giving him all the info he needed to do it "right".
Both you and Ace are assuming I felt pressured enough by a random comment that I'm scum to fake-claim information against Ace. This especially doesn't make sense since there was no case against me - why would I fake a claim where I could easily get out of the analysis (indeed Ace's first attempt at throwing something was very poorly put together) The risk/reward doesn't line up here.
Agreed. After all the townieness you advanced D1, I'm very surprised that Ace would go after you. His analysis is going to need to be pretty stellar to convince me to go after you. I find it much more likely that he's scum attempting a gambit, but choosing the wrong target (not knowing that someone was watching his scum action). Regardless, we now know that one of you is lying, and that's a good place to start.
However, if we use the standard 9-3 town-scum ratio, we're at 6-3. A mislynch will more than likely result in D3 starting with 4 town, 3 scum, which is not a groovy place to be. I definitely await Ace's analysis.
I don't know if nom is town or scum. But I'd like to point out this type of behavior is his standard modus operandi.
Court Mafia: Day 1, hatch plan to KILL EVERYONE ELSE IN A SINGLE NIGHT, when the plan only allows him to hit 11 random players, ATTEMPTS TO FIRE ANYHOW (Roleblocked).
In other words....Nom is an impulsive player who doesn't think about planning long-term or listening to others. I wouldn't be surprised if he was town. At all.
So far, it seems like Ace is more likely to be scum than Skander. Most of Ace's reasoning for saying that Skander was scum is his reaction to being accused of being scum. He said that he has some better reasoning that he will post later, but I'm wondering why he hasn't posted it yet.
Sorry guys. I'm still here. I also would like to see what Ace has to say about Day 1. Seems like a risky thing to do for both parties involved. Ace just saying outright that Skander is Scum, and then Skander very defensively saying that Ace targeted AoL last night. Maybe Ace is claiming Cop?
So I heard u like PBPA?
U can haz PBPA!
#10 – Random Vote. Irrelevant
#19 – Clarifies what the random stage is. Again, irrelevant.
#32 – Skander pushes for reasoning over S_P’s defensiveness; he also questions both AI and Keeperofzion on their plays.
#34 – At first glance this post seems harmless; however, glancing back at the first line, it seems that Skander is setting himself up to tackle anyone who attempts to stay in a random-phase mindset without moving onto what he terms “serious play”; at yet, his next line is that random = ok, serious = better; but didn’t he just say that random=bad? Interesting how he flips on this so quickly.
#38 – Note that Skander has no content, and simply asks questions at this point. Why? What evidence do you have? Seems to be what Skander asks.
#41 – Skander says he doesn’t want to make hasty conclusions. Trying for public approval?
#55 – Skander is fair enough in his reasoning here.
#57 – Huh?
#59 – Attempts to confirm keeper’s vote on gamerz.
#62 – The question of why keeper dropped a vote for a random vote and a FoS is discussed.
#70 – Skander seems to back off a bit.
#73 – Skander attempts to discern whether SP voted AI to kick-start the game, or was an actual vote. I think that it’s quite obvious it was a random vote.
#75 – “I thought it was obvious”. Actually, from the posts so far, it’s far from obvious. He’s attempted to reason out some voting patterns, but at no point has he said anything remotely like “SP is scum. This is why: XXX”. Skander has simply said that his vote was strange, but not inherently scummy in nature.
#78 – Skander backs off after S_P makes a post regarding his vote.
#92 – Pushes Keeper to Lynch -2, and calls for a claim. States that the wagon is fast, but good. Can it be both? Seems like a way to distance one’s self from a lynch claim without giving a definitive stance. States that gamerz is town.
#94 – Whoops – Skander is called out by A_I and attempts to justify his vote by saying that he’s sure it will allow for discussion. Wait – couldn’t this have been accomplished by…talking? Note that there is no unvote at this point.
#97 – Defines why Lynch -2 is claim time. Contradicts himself by saying that usually there is a general interest in the lynch happening, but the post before he has stated that the other 5 townies hadn’t responded to the issue. How is that a general interest?
#107 – Long post here. “Basically you started with the premise that me and KoZ are scumbuddies and then looked in every post to support this strategy. That is bad analysing behaviour.” I find this line interesting. Skander attempts to invalidate a complete argument against him by smearing it as “something you looked for, rather than analysed”.
#115 – Skander says that there is a general preparation for a Day 2 mislynch with scumbuddy talk. This is reaching, and a clear attempt to deflect attention to a non-existant issue.
#125 – Dismisses the KoZ/Skander scumbuddies theories as bad speculation. Does not answer *why*, but simply wipes it away.
#135 – Contentless post about inactives.
#141 – Discusses KoZ being the doc or not. Seems to slightly push a claim from KoZ by saying he’ll be lynched anyway.
#142 – Irrelevant link to another game (Batman Mafia)
#144 – Irrelevant post. Says who’s new, and who is not.
#145 – Irrelevant post.
#147 – Calls KoZ out for lurking again.
#152 – Nothing, again.
#161 – Says that Gamerz can look through the thread and find scummy posts by KoZ if he’s looking for them, simply because he *is* looking for them. This is flawed logic – posts should be scummy by nature, not by assumption. Of note: Skander is unsure on Freshman4ever. Says that he will look over at his posts later.
#163 – Oh wow – Skander actually does do a PBPA on Freshman. Freshman is apparently town. I’m not sure if I agree here, but I’m willing to put Freshman on my list of town, for now.
#179 - Feels that AI’s tone is different, but doesn’t mean much. A possible plant to refer to back later when wagoning AI?
#181 – Mentions how KoZ’s claim, if not a power role, will result in his lynching. Is this really a town attitude? Seems like a scum saying that he wants him lynched no matter what (barring a power role claim)
#196 – Pushes on KoZ (which, honestly, is justified at this point)
#203 – KoZ claims. Skander is not moved. Surprised? I’m not. It seems clear that Skander has wanted KoZ dead for a while. Interesting also is his reaction to the S_P/AI discussion.
#205 – Pseudo-Gaming the mod. Justified in commenting that it is unusual, but fencesits on whether it is scummy or not.
#207 – Good to see that a PBPA is only warranted if one is bored.
#212 – Ah! The juicy part! In his first sentence, Skander says he would rather see the lynch proceed without discussion, but then contradicts himself by saying he would like more comments on the lynch.
#215 – Attacks KoZ again. Is putting suspiscion on your attackers *really* that scummy? It’s a little far-fetched to assume that, and seems a knee-jerk reaction from Skander.
#225 – Asks some more questions, reiterating the case on KoZ.
#238 – Ah, Skander’s true failing. He essentially claims tracker here, and apparently it is I who visited Avatar of Lag, and (it is implied) that I killed him (Either as Vig or Scum) – Skander fails to consider that it may be a Vig kill.
#240 – Brilliant. As the PBPA analysis states, he was on the wagon for the majority of Day 1, however I wouldn’t consider it an adamant wagon. Rather, I would consider #141 & #181 amongst others as evidence that Skander has pushed the lynch, but allowed for an out should it turn sour.
#242 – “Assume makes an ass out of u & me’. Skander fails to consider alternatives to the situation – consider, if you will, if there really was a tracker in the game, that a watcher may also exist. Or a cop. Or another role which targets, but does not kill. Consider a vigilante existing. But no, SKander does not. He goes straight for the throat, assuming that his “ability” saw me target AoL, and therefore I must have killed him, and therefore I must be scum. This is an absurd assumption, and should highlight how very naïve Skander truly is if he wishes the town to believe him.
#244 – Oh joy – a contentless post out of spite. Skander could have sought to protect his good-name if he were town, but no – he decides to play the sarcasm game.
#246 – Yawn. Again, could have argued, but rather decided to see what scenarios I could come up with. Perhaps he thought he could use a few of them to get out of the hole he dug himself into with his tracker claim
#250 – No, Skander isn’t claiming Cop. He’s claiming Tracker, and a horrid claim at that. Skander says that he had no reason to react, and yet – he did. He reacted quite angrily, and called me out via his tracker claim. He says it doesn’t make sense to claim – but it does. A scum could get a mislynch, then use the gaming the mod angle to play the town. Or perhaps the scum have a good idea on who is cop now, and simply need another night to off him. Again, multiple scenarios which may or may not be useful without mod information
My “Skander is scum” post was essentially fuelled over a brief reading of Skander’s posts in the late Day 2, and how they seemed to truly lack analysis beyond posing questions and pushing KoZ with little care for others (barring the one PBPA he did, which he did to ‘confirm’ a townie – something which scum would be itching to do to solidify their townie positions in the town’s minds). Skander’s reaction was quite amusing – his playing of the tracker claim-card was his mistake. I did not target AoL last night, nor did S_P. Skander is talking out of his butt, and should I be lynched, he will be next up for the noose.
I have some ideas on who his buddies may be, but I would like to gauge some more reactions from this current situation before divulging my suspicions.
#34 – At first glance this post seems harmless; however, glancing back at the first line, it seems that Skander is setting himself up to tackle anyone who attempts to stay in a random-phase mindset without moving onto what he terms “serious play”; at yet, his next line is that random = ok, serious = better; but didn’t he just say that random=bad? Interesting how he flips on this so quickly.
He did not at any time say 'random=bad'. This entire post is in response to AI's talk about random posts being good. Skander is merely clarifying that, yes random=good, but serious=better. Where in there does he say that 'random=bad'?
#38 – Note that Skander has no content, and simply asks questions at this point. Why? What evidence do you have? Seems to be what Skander asks.
And what's wrong with that? Asking questions seems to me to be a great way to go scum-hunting.
#41 – Skander says he doesn’t want to make hasty conclusions. Trying for public approval?
Maybe, but what he said was in response to me trying to clarify something that Toastboy said. It would make sense to allow Toastboy to clarify himself as opposed to go on speculation from another player.
#73 – Skander attempts to discern whether SP voted AI to kick-start the game, or was an actual vote. I think that it’s quite obvious it was a random vote.
Are you kidding?!?! It was obvious? Heck, no! Especially considering that SP said that he was going to skip the random phase. Not to mention that he admits later that it wasn't random. We are reading through the same game here, aren't we?
#75 – “I thought it was obvious”. Actually, from the posts so far, it’s far from obvious. He’s attempted to reason out some voting patterns, but at no point has he said anything remotely like “SP is scum. This is why: XXX”. Skander has simply said that his vote was strange, but not inherently scummy in nature.
I don't think that post was meant to say, 'why aren't you people realizing that I'm suspicious of SP?' but more to the point that, 'yes, I'm suspicious of SP, but where am I suspicious of AI?'
#92 – Pushes Keeper to Lynch -2, and calls for a claim. States that the wagon is fast, but good. Can it be both? Seems like a way to distance one’s self from a lynch claim without giving a definitive stance. States that gamerz is town.
Also stated in that post that Keeper was presented with 2 options, AI is scum or AI is town and then voted AI. Sounds like a good reason to finally vote for him. He was right, the wagon was fast, but it was well-deserved. I'm really upset that we ended up lynching a townie, but with the way he was playing, he had it coming.
#94 – Whoops – Skander is called out by A_I and attempts to justify his vote by saying that he’s sure it will allow for discussion. Wait – couldn’t this have been accomplished by…talking? Note that there is no unvote at this point.
He didn't need to unvote. AI had just done that.
#97 – Defines why Lynch -2 is claim time. Contradicts himself by saying that usually there is a general interest in the lynch happening, but the post before he has stated that the other 5 townies hadn’t responded to the issue. How is that a general interest?
I'd say that having 5 people voting for you means that, yes, there is a 'general interest' in a lynch.
#107 – Long post here. “Basically you started with the premise that me and KoZ are scumbuddies and then looked in every post to support this strategy. That is bad analysing behaviour.” I find this line interesting. Skander attempts to invalidate a complete argument against him by smearing it as “something you looked for, rather than analysed”.
And I'd claim that you're doing the exact same thing on Skander right now. Although, with you, I think the problem also seems to be that you're only reading Skander's posts and not considering what he's responding to or how the game has gone up to that point.
#115 – Skander says that there is a general preparation for a Day 2 mislynch with scumbuddy talk. This is reaching, and a clear attempt to deflect attention to a non-existant issue.
Possible, but, honestly, I have no idea what he's even trying to say here.
#141 – Discusses KoZ being the doc or not. Seems to slightly push a claim from KoZ by saying he’ll be lynched anyway.
Which I had basically said the post before.
#161 – Says that Gamerz can look through the thread and find scummy posts by KoZ if he’s looking for them, simply because he *is* looking for them. This is flawed logic – posts should be scummy by nature, not by assumption. Of note: Skander is unsure on Freshman4ever. Says that he will look over at his posts later.
That is exactly Skander's point! He was advising me that looking at posts under the assumption that the person is scum is not a good way to go about analyzing. As I said before, it's something that you seem to be doing in this PBPA on Skander.
#179 - Feels that AI’s tone is different, but doesn’t mean much. A possible plant to refer to back later when wagoning AI?
Sure, but that's a null-tell more than anything else really. How is it scummy to want to note a difference in tone? Or at least, how is it more scummy than town?
#181 – Mentions how KoZ’s claim, if not a power role, will result in his lynching. Is this really a town attitude? Seems like a scum saying that he wants him lynched no matter what (barring a power role claim)
'Will likely' result in his lynching is what he stated. Which was true. I was thinking the exact same thing.
#203 – KoZ claims. Skander is not moved. Surprised? I’m not. It seems clear that Skander has wanted KoZ dead for a while. Interesting also is his reaction to the S_P/AI discussion.
And I'm still intrigued to know why SP was doing that. I asked before, and I'll ask again...do you know why SP wasn't saying anything about the KoZ lynch? For that matter, do you know why he was attacking AI so much? Especially knowing now that AI is town?
#212 – Ah! The juicy part! In his first sentence, Skander says he would rather see the lynch proceed without discussion, but then contradicts himself by saying he would like more comments on the lynch.
I can see why you'd think this suspicious, but I think this feels more like he's frustrated with the lack of posting (of which I am too), and is trying to get people to talk more. I must say that at that point, I was also getting very impatient waiting for people to comment.
#215 – Attacks KoZ again. Is putting suspiscion on your attackers *really* that scummy? It’s a little far-fetched to assume that, and seems a knee-jerk reaction from Skander.
Well...if you read it again, he didn't actually say that it's scummy, although, that does seem to be implied. And I'd say it's a reach to call it 'knee-jerk' considering that KoZ wasn't even attacking Skander there.
#238 – Ah, Skander’s true failing. He essentially claims tracker here, and apparently it is I who visited Avatar of Lag, and (it is implied) that I killed him (Either as Vig or Scum) – Skander fails to consider that it may be a Vig kill.
I do have to qusetion him on that. Skander, why is it that you assumed that Ace was scum, and not a Vigilante?
#240 – Brilliant. As the PBPA analysis states, he was on the wagon for the majority of Day 1, however I wouldn’t consider it an adamant wagon. Rather, I would consider #141 & #181 amongst others as evidence that Skander has pushed the lynch, but allowed for an out should it turn sour.
I'm not sure what you mean by #141 or #181 showing that he gave himself an out. Of course KoZ claiming a power role would give him an 'out'!! I think you're really reaching here.
#242 – “Assume makes an ass out of u & me’. Skander fails to consider alternatives to the situation – consider, if you will, if there really was a tracker in the game, that a watcher may also exist. Or a cop. Or another role which targets, but does not kill. Consider a vigilante existing. But no, SKander does not. He goes straight for the throat, assuming that his “ability” saw me target AoL, and therefore I must have killed him, and therefore I must be scum. This is an absurd assumption, and should highlight how very naïve Skander truly is if he wishes the town to believe him.
Well, at that point in time, it's pretty obvious that, if Skander is being honest about tracking you, then you are scum. Considering that you said you didn't target anyone, there really can't be any other explanation. However, if that's why he voted you in the first place, then I'd have to question why.
#244 – Oh joy – a contentless post out of spite. Skander could have sought to protect his good-name if he were town, but no – he decides to play the sarcasm game.
#246 – Yawn. Again, could have argued, but rather decided to see what scenarios I could come up with. Perhaps he thought he could use a few of them to get out of the hole he dug himself into with his tracker claim
#250 – No, Skander isn’t claiming Cop. He’s claiming Tracker, and a horrid claim at that. Skander says that he had no reason to react, and yet – he did. He reacted quite angrily, and called me out via his tracker claim. He says it doesn’t make sense to claim – but it does. A scum could get a mislynch, then use the gaming the mod angle to play the town. Or perhaps the scum have a good idea on who is cop now, and simply need another night to off him. Again, multiple scenarios which may or may not be useful without mod information.
Yeah, I'd have to say this is where Skander loses me a little, although, I can still see it as a pissed off townie who's frustrated.
Honestly, the way you've done this PBPA hasn't helped your case much, if at all. The way you've analyzed Skander's posts with a seeming 'assumed guilt' factor gives me off a vibe of 'scum who's trying to look for reasons to nail a townie'. I realize that it may be because you've come in the middle of the game, and haven't had all this time to analyze exactly how things have been going. At least as much as the rest of us.
My “Skander is scum” post was essentially fuelled over a brief reading of Skander’s posts in the late Day 2, and how they seemed to truly lack analysis beyond posing questions and pushing KoZ with little care for others (barring the one PBPA he did, which he did to ‘confirm’ a townie – something which scum would be itching to do to solidify their townie positions in the town’s minds). Skander’s reaction was quite amusing – his playing of the tracker claim-card was his mistake. I did not target AoL last night, nor did S_P. Skander is talking out of his butt, and should I be lynched, he will be next up for the noose.
I have some ideas on who his buddies may be, but I would like to gauge some more reactions from this current situation before divulging my suspicions.
I would definitely like some more information out of you on the game. Suich as answering my questions about SP's previous behaviour. Same with Skander and why he automatically assumed that Ace was scum.
If someone claims that they are an unlynchable, unkillable, octa-voter, with 4 daykills and 6 doc-protects, then technically lynching that person solely based on his claim would be gaming the mod, but I would be just fine doing that.
I do have to qusetion him on that. Skander, why is it that you assumed that Ace was scum, and not a Vigilante?
I think that it is because Avatar of Lag didn't seem like scum. Why would a vigilante want to target him over somebody who was acting much scummier, like Freshman or AI?
I think that it is because Avatar of Lag didn't seem like scum. Why would a vigilante want to target him over somebody who was acting much scummier, like Freshman or AI?
That's a good point. I'd say it's a pretty safe assumption that AI would have been the Vig kill with AoL being the scum kill. The question at that point though is. Why would the scum kill AoL?
If someone claims that they are an unlynchable, unkillable, octa-voter, with 4 daykills and 6 doc-protects, then technically lynching that person solely based on his claim would be gaming the mod, but I would be just fine doing that.
I'm back a day early, and I'm surprised to see that the thread hasn't gone yet to another page, we really need some input from everyone else about what they think.
That's a good point. I'd say it's a pretty safe assumption that AI would have been the Vig kill with AoL being the scum kill. The question at that point though is. Why would the scum kill AoL?
Have to agree with above statement, unless the vig was given extra info or has gone trigger happy AI was the probable vig kill.
#34 – At first glance this post seems harmless; however, glancing back at the first line, it seems that Skander is setting himself up to tackle anyone who attempts to stay in a random-phase mindset without moving onto what he terms “serious play”; at yet, his next line is that random = ok, serious = better; but didn’t he just say that random=bad? Interesting how he flips on this so quickly.
I'll let you answer this very simple question: Where did I say that random=bad?
I agree with this but serious posts are more beneficial ordinarily - in other words I'm fine with letting the random phase play its course since there is information to be gleaned if you look hard enough but once we've moved on to the serious stage why constantly urge others to remain in the random? The serious stage provides plenty of information, more than the random stage. This is why I asked
Random posts are fine for anaylzing but serious is better.
#38 – Note that Skander has no content, and simply asks questions at this point. Why? What evidence do you have? Seems to be what Skander asks.
And that is bad how? Questions lead to answers which leads to scum.
#41 – Skander says he doesn’t want to make hasty conclusions. Trying for public approval?
Like Gamerz said, the point was that I wanted to hear the answer from the original poster not from someone else who was just speculating.
#57 – Huh?
What is the question here? I quoted myself to bring this point to KoZ's attention, since he had posted and not replied to it.
#73 – Skander attempts to discern whether SP voted AI to kick-start the game, or was an actual vote. I think that it’s quite obvious it was a random vote.
Wow, you lost me here. So when SP later clarifies that in fact was not a random vote do you also disagree with him? It was anything from obvious and I was in fact correct in assuming that it was not a random vote.
#75 – “I thought it was obvious”. Actually, from the posts so far, it’s far from obvious. He’s attempted to reason out some voting patterns, but at no point has he said anything remotely like “SP is scum. This is why: XXX”. Skander has simply said that his vote was strange, but not inherently scummy in nature.
I had been pressing SP for answers while I had not been pressuring AI. You are correct that I did not say anywhere that I thought SP was scum - since at the time I wasn't sure - however I did find him acting scummy and so I was pressuring him.
#92 – Pushes Keeper to Lynch -2, and calls for a claim. States that the wagon is fast, but good. Can it be both? Seems like a way to distance one’s self from a lynch claim without giving a definitive stance. States that gamerz is town.
And why can't it be both? I saw obvious scum in KoZ and so the fast wagon didn't bother me. Also a fast wagon isn't a definite sign of a mislynch; it could be that the person was playing so scummily that everyone realized it or it could even be that his buddies realized he's going to be lynched and so offered no resistance. Over here I weighed the options and decided that the fast wagon wasn't enough of a deterrent to ignore KoZ's masively scummy behaviour.
#94 – Whoops – Skander is called out by A_I and attempts to justify his vote by saying that he’s sure it will allow for discussion. Wait – couldn’t this have been accomplished by…talking? Note that there is no unvote at this point.
As gamerz pointed out there was no unvote needed because AI had done so. It could have been accomplished by talking but my point was that the vote would still allow for talk.
#97 – Defines why Lynch -2 is claim time. Contradicts himself by saying that usually there is a general interest in the lynch happening, but the post before he has stated that the other 5 townies hadn’t responded to the issue. How is that a general interest?
How is that not general interest? We had consecutive people vote KoZ. Wouldn't you call that general interest?
#107 – Long post here. “Basically you started with the premise that me and KoZ are scumbuddies and then looked in every post to support this strategy. That is bad analysing behaviour.” I find this line interesting. Skander attempts to invalidate a complete argument against him by smearing it as “something you looked for, rather than analysed”.
Ouch. Complete misrep here. I responded to every point of AI's, showing how it was wrong. After that, I pointed out the conclusion I came to. I didn't wipe away AI's arguments with that line - I had already done that through simple reasoning.
#115 – Skander says that there is a general preparation for a Day 2 mislynch with scumbuddy talk. This is reaching, and a clear attempt to deflect attention to a non-existant issue.
Perhaps I overreacted slightly, but both AI and freshman were talking as if I was KoZ's buddy at that point. It was not a non-existent issue. What would I be deflecting attention away from?
#125 – Dismisses the KoZ/Skander scumbuddies theories as bad speculation. Does not answer *why*, but simply wipes it away.
Burden of proof was not on me. AI had shown why he thought I was KoZ's buddy - I countered his arguments. It was incumbent on freshman and AI to show how I was KoZ's buddy.
#141 – Discusses KoZ being the doc or not. Seems to slightly push a claim from KoZ by saying he’ll be lynched anyway.
Which was completely true.
#161 – Says that Gamerz can look through the thread and find scummy posts by KoZ if he’s looking for them, simply because he *is* looking for them. This is flawed logic – posts should be scummy by nature, not by assumption. Of note: Skander is unsure on Freshman4ever. Says that he will look over at his posts later.
Thank you for attacking me by repeating exactly what I said in that post. Are you even bothering to read them?
#163 – Oh wow – Skander actually does do a PBPA on Freshman. Freshman is apparently town. I’m not sure if I agree here, but I’m willing to put Freshman on my list of town, for now.
Snarkiness is unnecessary.
#179 - Feels that AI’s tone is different, but doesn’t mean much. A possible plant to refer to back later when wagoning AI?
Misrep and reaching. Somebody had pointed that Ai's tone felt different and attacked him for it. I pointed out that although I saw how you could think the tone felt different it was not a reason to attack him.
#181 – Mentions how KoZ’s claim, if not a power role, will result in his lynching. Is this really a town attitude? Seems like a scum saying that he wants him lynched no matter what (barring a power role claim)
Misrep. I said likely lynched - if there was extreme flavour reason to believe he was telling the truth and town when he claimed then he wouldn't be lynched.
#203 – KoZ claims. Skander is not moved. Surprised? I’m not. It seems clear that Skander has wanted KoZ dead for a while. Interesting also is his reaction to the S_P/AI discussion.
What compelling reasons did KoZ give me to unvote? If anything his claim made him more scummy than before (what with the edit-post to tack on a part of his claim) and he was ignoring my questions.
#207 – Good to see that a PBPA is only warranted if one is bored.
Sarcasm totally unwarranted here. I had addressed almost every post by KoZ by that point - a PBPA would just consist of me copypasting my responses to his posts, nothing new added to the case just making it clearer for others to read, so no I would not have done something like that unless I was bored.
#212 – Ah! The juicy part! In his first sentence, Skander says he would rather see the lynch proceed without discussion, but then contradicts himself by saying he would like more comments on the lynch.
Again a misrep. I said that I don't feel the need to wait for the "whole town", however I did want more people to post before lynching KoZ. Whole town weighing in =/= more players weighing in.
#215 – Attacks KoZ again. Is putting suspiscion on your attackers *really* that scummy? It’s a little far-fetched to assume that, and seems a knee-jerk reaction from Skander.
A knee-jerk reaction to what? Besides, I never said it was *that* scummy, however instead of defending himself he chose to attack his attackers.
#238 – Ah, Skander’s true failing. He essentially claims tracker here, and apparently it is I who visited Avatar of Lag, and (it is implied) that I killed him (Either as Vig or Scum) – Skander fails to consider that it may be a Vig kill.
It was an educated guess. If vig killed AoL and scum killed AI then we have two actions that were dumb. It makes much more sense that the vig would go after the scummier target (AI) and scum would not kill someone under a lot of suspicion (again, AI).
#240 – Brilliant. As the PBPA analysis states, he was on the wagon for the majority of Day 1, however I wouldn’t consider it an adamant wagon. Rather, I would consider #141 & #181 amongst others as evidence that Skander has pushed the lynch, but allowed for an out should it turn sour.
Can you reach any further? Allowing myself an out? How about proper consideration for a power role.
#242 – “Assume makes an ass out of u & me’. Skander fails to consider alternatives to the situation – consider, if you will, if there really was a tracker in the game, that a watcher may also exist. Or a cop. Or another role which targets, but does not kill. Consider a vigilante existing. But no, SKander does not. He goes straight for the throat, assuming that his “ability” saw me target AoL, and therefore I must have killed him, and therefore I must be scum. This is an absurd assumption, and should highlight how very naïve Skander truly is if he wishes the town to believe him.
Really? Who's assuming now? I never said that I was a Tracker. If I was a Watcher then I would know that you were the only one that targeted AoL last night and all your accusations are completely moot. So you are doing the exact same thing that you accused me of doing - failing to consider alternatives. If oversight makes me scum then what does that make you?
Regardless, you are correct: I am claiming Tracker. No, I did not know for sure that you were the only one to target AoL, but your predecessor's scummy behaviour was enough to make me jump to the conclusion that you killed AoL. A conclusion you confirmed when you said you didn't target anyone.
#244 – Oh joy – a contentless post out of spite. Skander could have sought to protect his good-name if he were town, but no – he decides to play the sarcasm game.
Protect my good name from what? Should I have done this:
You: "Skander is scum."
Me: "No I'm not."
You gave one argument against me which I easily blew out of the water (which is pretty much on par with the arguments you give in your PBPA), there was no arguing to be done.
#246 – Yawn. Again, could have argued, but rather decided to see what scenarios I could come up with. Perhaps he thought he could use a few of them to get out of the hole he dug himself into with his tracker claim
Again, could have argued what?
#250 – No, Skander isn’t claiming Cop. He’s claiming Tracker, and a horrid claim at that. Skander says that he had no reason to react, and yet – he did. He reacted quite angrily, and called me out via his tracker claim. He says it doesn’t make sense to claim – but it does. A scum could get a mislynch, then use the gaming the mod angle to play the town. Or perhaps the scum have a good idea on who is cop now, and simply need another night to off him. Again, multiple scenarios which may or may not be useful without mod information
What reason did I have to react? How did I react?
What gaming the mod angle? If I got you lynched off my claim and you turned to be town how could I wiggle my way out of that?
If I was scum and knew who the cop was, why didn't I off him last night?
Every "scenario" you've provided as motivation for me claiming Tracker as scum just doesn't make any sense. Keep trying though.
My “Skander is scum” post was essentially fuelled over a brief reading of Skander’s posts in the late Day 2, and how they seemed to truly lack analysis beyond posing questions and pushing KoZ with little care for others (barring the one PBPA he did, which he did to ‘confirm’ a townie – something which scum would be itching to do to solidify their townie positions in the town’s minds). Skander’s reaction was quite amusing – his playing of the tracker claim-card was his mistake. I did not target AoL last night, nor did S_P. Skander is talking out of his butt, and should I be lynched, he will be next up for the noose.
I have some ideas on who his buddies may be, but I would like to gauge some more reactions from this current situation before divulging my suspicions.
Basically your PBPA on me is utter garbage. Most of the points in there are misreps. Sometimes it feels as if you haven't even read the thread - just looked at my posts and figured a way to spin them as scummy.
Regardless, you are correct: I am claiming Tracker. No, I did not know for sure that you were the only one to target AoL, but your predecessor's scummy behaviour was enough to make me jump to the conclusion that you killed AoL.
oooo. I'll wait for other people's responses to this, but I think I'm on Skander's side on this confrontation.
Hmm, fence sitting quite a lot here. I get the feeling that you may know one of the parties involved is scum and yet you are reserving judgement to see which way to barn.
I agree that I was fence sitting here, mainly because there was nothing too substantial to either argument at this point, other than opposing statements, that one or the other is scum. Ace had yet to do his PBPA and Skander did not say much more than "I tracked you to AoL's house". Without the further information I asked for (and which was given), there would be no way to make a proper decision, in my mind, on which argument was false.
That's a good point. I'd say it's a pretty safe assumption that AI would have been the Vig kill with AoL being the scum kill. The question at that point though is. Why would the scum kill AoL?
I concur that AI is likely a vig target. As to why AoL...well, when I was scum, we talked about choosing odd targets to confuse the town. I wouldn't be surprised to see this aimed at throwing us off the trail that way. But any attempts to identify the purpose (point blame at someone who was suspicious of AoL, pseudo-clear someone who had defended AoL, etc.) are WIFOM.
Ace's response isn't doing it for me. His snarky lolcatz lead-in feels nervous and forced, and his PBPA is lacking. Skander felt solid town to me from the word "go"; if he says that he tracked Ace, I believe him. And if Ace denied performing any action last night, and Skander did track him, then Ace is lying, be he vig or be he scum. Basic tenet of the game: lynch all liars.
I don't know if nom is town or scum. But I'd like to point out this type of behavior is his standard modus operandi.
Court Mafia: Day 1, hatch plan to KILL EVERYONE ELSE IN A SINGLE NIGHT, when the plan only allows him to hit 11 random players, ATTEMPTS TO FIRE ANYHOW (Roleblocked).
In other words....Nom is an impulsive player who doesn't think about planning long-term or listening to others. I wouldn't be surprised if he was town. At all.
Hmm... I think was gaming the mod a little too much for you and Gamerz. Did you honestly believe that this made him scum?
Honestly, that was the tipping point. I'm pretty sure that, even if I hadn't noticed it, that I would have still voted for him anyways, but just the oddity of it, and not being able to come up with much of any other reason, made me quite confident (along with everything else) that he was scum.
I think this is a fairly poor PBPA. Most of it isn't actually analysis, and Skander's defence was made well. However, I do find it hard to believe that Ace would act in such a way if he was scum, particularly his confidence with the PBPA, which would mean Skander is scum, which I also find hard to believe. Hmm...
And that's what's bugging me about this whole thing too. If Ace is scum, then why didn't he claim Vig at that point? It seems like it would be a better strategy with many more 'outs' to it. Although, I guess, the problem with claiming vig is that Ace would have to explain why he went after AoL. And that looks like a really big hole to dig oneself out of.
Also, I don't see why a scum wouldn't be confident with their PBPA. What better way to look townie?
Skander's response to Ace's PBPA feels very townie to me. He is defending the attacks on himself reasonably without attacking Ace on anything unless it seems warranted. Contrast this with Ace's PBPA where a majority of his attacks on Skander seem to be either reaching for somethign, or a complete misinterpretation of the facts. It seems to have been hastily done as if he needed something to back up his original vote.
To sum that up, Ace's attacks seem to be made from someone on the ropes desperate to smear their opposition, while Skander's response seems to be made from someone who is confident that the town will see through his opponent's attacks and make the right choice based on the facts.
If someone claims that they are an unlynchable, unkillable, octa-voter, with 4 daykills and 6 doc-protects, then technically lynching that person solely based on his claim would be gaming the mod, but I would be just fine doing that.
Honestly, that was the tipping point. I'm pretty sure that, even if I hadn't noticed it, that I would have still voted for him anyways, but just the oddity of it, and not being able to come up with much of any other reason, made me quite confident (along with everything else) that he was scum.
And that's what's bugging me about this whole thing too. If Ace is scum, then why didn't he claim Vig at that point? It seems like it would be a better strategy with many more 'outs' to it. Although, I guess, the problem with claiming vig is that Ace would have to explain why he went after AoL. And that looks like a really big hole to dig oneself out of.
Also, I don't see why a scum wouldn't be confident with their PBPA. What better way to look townie?
Skander's response to Ace's PBPA feels very townie to me. He is defending the attacks on himself reasonably without attacking Ace on anything unless it seems warranted. Contrast this with Ace's PBPA where a majority of his attacks on Skander seem to be either reaching for somethign, or a complete misinterpretation of the facts. It seems to have been hastily done as if he needed something to back up his original vote.
To sum that up, Ace's attacks seem to be made from someone on the ropes desperate to smear their opposition, while Skander's response seems to be made from someone who is confident that the town will see through his opponent's attacks and make the right choice based on the facts.
Vote Ace
Will reply to most of my posts when I grab some free time in the next day or two. It will happen, but not as quick as some might like.
I would like to say however, that surely I would have chosen a better avenue to both attack Skander, and give myself an out to the tracker claim. Any self-respecting scum would claim cop or the like in this situation, possibly even another targetting ability such as watcher, notlead a case on another player.
I will admit that my PBPA was bias, but then again, it was done with the perspective that Skander is scum. This is bias, but true - and I shall respond to Skander's responses to my PBPA (believe me, it's not one of my better (nor impartial) PBPAs).
Skander may look like town to many of you, but should I be lynched and when I flip town, you are to lynch him.
I don't believe Skander's claim for a few reasons: He expressed very little suspicion of Sp the day before, so why track him?
Because he was the only person on my radar besides for KoZ most of D1. True, I didn't express much suspicion on him but I didn't express suspicion about anyone else. He was my number 2 scum after KoZ. If you read D1 that much should be clear.
A tracker is the easiest power role to fake IMO, as it gives no definite result and with the least possible number of people. The way Ace said 'Skander is scum' before saying he hadn't really reread made it sound like he had some confirmation, which may have lead Skander to panic. If he had honestly thought Sp was scum the day before, he didn't need to claim first thing D1. In fact, outing himself would have beena fairly bad thing to do early D2.
How likely do you think a lynch on Ace would have been? Sure SP was lurking D1 and did a couple of scummy things but people would brush those off to RL issues. Also he had just gotten replaced which generally starts people on a clean slate since they can't answer why their predecessor did the scummy things they did.
EBWODP: Also you just dismiss Ace's PBPA as "poorly constructed" when it is so much more than that. There is so much misrepresentation and twisting facts; it is not the PBPA of a townie trying to prove that I'm scum - it's the PBPA of a scum trying to get me lynched before he gets lynched.
Assuming that Keeper gets lynched it depends on whether he turns up scum or not. Whoever gets NK'ed could also have a bearing on it as well.
Here are my comments:
I have read through Keeper's defence a couple times and it hasn't really made any sort of impact on me to be certain of his innocence. Although I have defended Keeper previously, I have to say that my opinion has changed as a result of his lacking defence. His first claim of being town and against the mafia was about as underwhelming as it can get. Then he subsequently expanded on his claim, but everything I've read from him is really bland in its nature, and he seems not to be really ardently defending himself, mostly sitting on the fact that he claimed and instantly expecting a change of voting direction. Honestly, I would think that someone near lynching would be taking the initiative to make their own arguments for their defence, rather than just waiting to respond and try to dodge the attacks of others; but maybe that's just me.
Right now I wouldn't have any problem putting in the final vote, however as a few people still have yet to comment I'll wait until tomorrow morning to officially type it in.
Take a look at my questions and tell me how they could be construed as fishing.
This assumes that you know what you're doing. And that you're town. Slight fearmongering noted.
This is a big hangup for me when it comes to AI: Acting "ambiguous" feels like shifty scum trying to cover his erratic tracks. I don't like it, especially if it's gambit after ploy after gambit.
Right now my vote is on KoZ, who I still have major concerns with. I've voiced my questions about your behavior. That's enough for now.
Oh, this feel SCUMMY. I dislike the little "add-in". The edit feels like it's reinforcement of false information, added incentive not to lynch, as it were. On top of that, gaining abilities isn't "additional info on flavor," but is actually gameplay. Vote definitely stands.
? O.o Really. Interesting.
Looking for direction from the town or someone else?
Good note.
I don't find his actions as scummy as you seem to, but they're not overly town in any case. Still, I think there are scummier.
Agreed. Odd element for a basic game (although each mod will likely do something to keep each game fresh), and he's still acting scummy.
Yup, that's exactly what I thought.
Why not do it within the same post? Why add it like an afterthought?
Feels like flailing. It wasn't just "the most vanilla claim available", it was a claim nearly without content. Your initial "claim" gave what everyone essentially projects from the start: I'm town; I hate the scum. Woo. What was that designed to tell us? And you gave it at L-2...after being at that point for multiple days and being requested to do so multiple times. If you were away from the game for awhile, that's understandable. But to come back and post your "claim"...yes, you come off as scummy.
AI still bears watching, but KoZ's "add-on" claim cinches it for me: vote most definitely stands on KoZ.
But while we're at it: AsianInvasion:
1) Why do you say that the claim makes sense given what we know?
2) Why do feel that KoZ's claim makes him less scummy?
EWP:
You say you're not against a lynch, but then your "description" for KoZ is a subtle defense. I'm getting conflicting vibes here.
Do you care to comment on why this feels like fishing? If Gamerz (who you don't seem to identify as scummy) has stated that he has suspicions for a subsequent day, but chooses not to clarify them, why would you go digging?
However, even if I end up replaced, I will do my best to get a couple of posts in before then to explain why I didn't comment on KoZ and on other issues. I am sorry that my activity level has been detrimental thus far this game.
Official Deschanel Stalker of The Called
Fair enough. I'll keep that in mind.
You asked, "Do townies need disclaimers?" As a way of attacking me indirectly. I stated that I would prefer if you didn't try to make me reveal all of my game plans. Players who are overly interested in the game strategies of others could very well be scum scouting for power roles.
Insult noted, and unnecessary.
Ad hom from a townie? Hmm...
Feel free to question me on it if I survive the night and continue to make posts that are ambiguous...unless you want to try to overturn the entire Keeper bandwagon and get me lynched today.
Call. Not even you would be so ballsy.
"Hey guys, I know we're about to lynch Player X, but Player Y is scummy too! Let's try to lynch him tomorrow!"
Interesting how? Scummy interesting, or just interesting interesting? Your vague comments are not conducive to a relevant discussion.
This assumes that there are other experienced mafioso. And that I'm scum. More-than-slight reach noted.
In the middle of typing this post, I reread Keeper's claim and my own role information. My role info contains nothing about where I work or what I do for a living, just that I'm constantly working. (Yes, I know what I just did.) Also, doesn't working with waste feel like something scum would do? (Garbage and scum being nearly synonymous.)
Based on this line of thinking, I'm ready to hammer Keeper.
Does anyone have any last-minute comments to make?
I guess you might want to hear why I believed otherwise earlier.
We know that Infrared Citizen is probably the vanilla townie role title. (As an interesting note, my alphanumerical designation contains eight characters, rather than seven. I'm not sure if this is relevant, or just an oversight on the Computer's part.)
I assumed that Keeper wasn't scum because scum-Keeper wouldn't realize that he should false-claim his color-clearance when claiming, but in retrospect this is terrible logic.
I wasn't against the lynch, but I did want people to wait until more players had checked in. (Yeah, that's probably the twentieth time I've said that.)
If he wanted to share, I would appreciate if he would, especially since he has a pretty good chance of getting NK'd, being one of the more active and logical players in this game.
You'll notice that I didn't pressure him at all, I just told him that I was interested in hearing his thoughts.
Sorry to hear that things aren't going well for you.
However, it's interesting to see that you have a reason for not commenting on Keeper's situation.
To repeat, I am seeking last-minute comments before I hammer Keeper.
I didn't put suspicion on him because he is one of my attackers, but because of his post. That's it, period. And what made you think that I'm dodging your questions? As far as I know, I've been answering them. I've even asked you on what questions you said that i've missed so that I could answer them.
Try claiming and after posting it, you realize that you forgot to add something in it that you deemed important. Won't you do as I did and add it up with another post? Again, careful paraphrasing was one of the reasons why i forgot to add it. I wanted to make sure that I wouldn't be modkilled because of careless paraphrasing. And while focusing on that, I forgot to add that part since I already posted it.
Again with the dodging. As I said, I wasn't dodging attacks as you assume that I have been. I was trying to answer all the questions asked to me, clearing up things, especially the fact that most of you think that my actions have been scummy and fail to understand the reasons why I posted as such.
I already gave my argument on this around two times already. Again, try to understand my reasoning and to compare it to yourself if you were in my shoes. Because if you did, you would understand why I added it.
The reason why I wasn't able to claim after so long that it was being asked for is because of how my life took control over my free time. It was not because I was dodging it, but because I really had no opportunity to do it. You also need to understand that my initial claim was such because it is my first claim ever. I'm sure you were once new to mafia as well, and you had to claim for the first time. Wouldn't you not know how to effectively claim as other, more experienced players expect you to?
Your last statement seemed to me as if you were grabbing any accusation you could see in my claim to justify for your thinking that i'm scum. I must ask you, so just because that I happen to work where waste is and the fact that the word garbage is synonymous with scum, it's already certain that I am scum and that you feel that that is already enough reason? For me, this is a weak argument.
Seriously? I already linked to the questions. But I guess I'll do it again. http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=4134553&postcount=107
I'll spell them out here as well:
1) You called Gamerz's OCD a scumtell. After you recieved a bunch of flak for it AI asked if you still believed that OCD was a scumtell. You said:
How does what Cantripmancer thinks about the OCD affect what you think of the OCD? Why did you think it was a scumtell originally and then later thought it was not a scumtell?
2) You said that you can see the long posts that AI made as being a scumtell and also as not being a scumtell, yet you decided that AI was scum based on that. How did you reach this conclusion if you also saw a way that he wasn't scum there?
3) (Not in the linked post but in a later one).
If you are a townie why would you ask me to provide reasons that I'm not your scumbuddy? If you are a townie than by definition I can't be your scumbuddy.
I still don't see hoe he was really 'fishing' though, at least, anymore than you were trying to 'fish' me. Considering your statement about 'expect a change in playstyle', I think it's natural to want to know what that's about, and doesn't make him seem 'overly' curious at all.
And even if you were scum, there wouldn't be much of a point right now. It'd seem more wise to go after someone who is a much more likely candidate.
Why did you state that? I don't see anything wrong with Cantripmancer stating what you responded to there and this response seems very 'OMGUS' to me.
Yeah, that seems like such a reach. Working with waste seems scummy to you? Are you freakin' kidding me?!? This seems like gaming the mod to the extreme.
For all we know, the scum have a colour-clearance as well. So yeah, definitely terrible logic. I just find it hard to believe that it is one you could make.
KeeperofZion: 6 (Gigas 1, Cantripmancer,Skander, Toastboy, Freshman4Ever, Gamerz)
Freshman4Ever: 1 (mystic1110)
With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch.
Also, a prod is going out on Mystic1110, and I will find the requested replacement for Silent Prophet.
Almost everyone has had their opinion on this, and we've mostly reached a consensus with two others also willing to finish the vote. The arguments presented are also beginning to become cyclical, so lets see if we were correct in our reasoning and move on to another day.
“Who are you?” they cry, “five of us want to know, so tell us!”
After a good long silence, the crowd becomes impatient. Keeper hesitates, and the jeering continues.
“Wait! I'm just an infrared citizen. I work in garbage disposal. Please, don't kill me.” He pauses a moment, then continues, “I just wanted a promotion.”
Everyone turns to one another, and they discuss the possibility for a moment. Then someone cries out, “BURN HIM ANYWAY!” and the group surges, forcing him sideways down the shaft.
After a long pause, a printout descends from the ceiling.
Spectrum analysis reveals disintegrated citizen to be Infrared Citizen 4A452XB. No record of suspected treachery.
Everyone stalks of gloomily. Another loyal citizen lost to the traitorous menace.
It is now night 1. Please have night choices in by midnight on Thursday the thirteenth.
The door bashed down. The walls smashed. Even the cleaning robot did not survive. Sadly, Avatar of Lag could not live without his head.
As everyone surveys the wreckage, someone thinks to count the number gaping in horror. It doesn't take long to realize AsianInvasion is absent. Everyone charges to his room, but he doesn't seem to be there. Upon closer inspection, a thin coating of dust seems to line his bed. It seems to be the only remains.
Avatar of Lag, Infrared Citizen 4E45M93 and AsianInvasion, Infrared Citizen 4E53EAC4, have both been killed. However, it is apparent neither were plotting the computer's downfall.
It is now day 2.
With 9 remaining, it is 5 to lynch.
(I'm proud to take one for the town! :link:)
Rereading now (as I am also rereading another game. Real life ftl!)
Also, skander is scum.
Thanks.
oh well.
Agreed. Welcome, Ace, and I anxiously await your thoughts. Skander's been playing very town, as far as I can tell. Not that that means anything. I figured AI for scum for sure...
That's funny, I was about to say the same about you. I know that you targeted Avatar of Lag last night. And now he's dead. Care to explain that?
Vote Ace
Playing that card so soon?
Really skander.
I did not target anybody last night.
I will go into the reasons for why Skander is scum in the coming days, but just a brief looking at the Day 1 lynch shows him prodding people for support, then backing off in order to allow others to make the mislynch, allowing for a "well, I didn't hammer or the like" later on.
oh, and
Vote Skander
Maybe you should do more than just a brief look at the wagon. I was on that wagon from the begining and never backed away from it - admittedly not exactly a plus but what you're accusing me of doing is totally false.
Right. So explain the "you targetted AoL last night."
Go on.
You targeted AoL last night... he is dead. Conclusion: You are scum and killed him.
Or a guess?
What do you think?
I think you're speaking out of your ass.
Unless Nom hasn't told me about something S_P had, an item or the like, there's no possible way I could have done anything last night.
You could have squirmed out of this by way of behavioural analysis Skander, but you played your trump card way too early. Now, it's simply unbelievable. Even if I do get lynched and when I turn up town, you'll be next.
Nicely played sir. Nicely played.
Explain why I would do this as scum.
Throw a mislynch to divert attention from whoever set up the mislynches yesterday. Lynch me, claim cop tomorrow, fake godfather on lynchee, and win with a mislynch?
There are numerous possibilities.
You are scum, good sir. Your lack of content this far (simply denying through "nuh-uh!" is reasoning enough.
Tell me then, if you're not scum, who are my apparent buddies?
My thought was that maybe all the scum were labeled as 'Redinfra' and he didn't realize it. The reason I didn't say anything at the time was because I wondered if any of the other scum realized this and if Keeper was revealed as scum, I could use as a way to identify another scum who reveals his identity as 'Redinfra'.
However, obviously, it ended up being quite simple in that Keeper was doing that as part of his 'paraphrasing'. So of course, it threw me off, because merely re-arranging the letters in one's identity is not 'paraphrasing' at all, and, in fact, seems to me like it would be more of a 'tell' than anything else. I noticed, after he was revealed as town, that he also re-arranged the numbers and letters in his identity as well.
I just feel so foolish for not realizing this at all. I was almost completely convinced that Keeper was scum. And now AI and AoL are dead. I'm guessing there's a vigilante out there. At least I don't have to worry about whether AI is scum or town. I was really on the fence about him. Especially after his reasons for wanting to hammer Keeper.
Also: Ace, do you have any idea why SP was saying this?
Will do some more re-reading. Just wanted to say how pissed off I am at myself for mis-reading things.
Wow I can't believe I didn't notice the "redinfra" thing, that just makes everything so much more confusing. I have to agree here that I believe Keeper probably took the paraphrasing a bit too seriously. Since he was innocent and vanilla from the looks of it, I still can't fathom why he would withhold proper information from the town.
I'll be away until Monday, so look for my next post then.
As for the current clash between Ace and Skander here are my thoughts on each party:
1) Ace
-Can't really say too much here about previous history as Silent Prophet didn't post much of relevance until being replaced
-I seem to agree with this, as Skadner pushed back very hard on being threatened, indicating a high degree of pressure on his end to react
-Skadner is forcing an essentially "me-or-you" scenario, which is not really townie behaviour especially since we are already down 3 after 1 day and almost in lynch properly or lose scenario (I believe we lose if we lose 3 more town over the next day + night without killing a mafia)
- Don't really understand the bolded part (my bolding; not original) above
-I'm very interested in hearing your (Ace's) arguments about Skander's behaviour over the previous day, as this will probably be a tipping factor one-way or another here.
2) Skander
-Seemed pretty townie early the previous day, probably need to reread the stuff regarding the progress of the lynch
- Could you please give us some more information regarding your ability at least
-This comes across as really angry/arrogant, possible scum tell
-Can't really find anything else of Skander's quote worthy in this current exchange, just the ability claim
I'm not claiming cop though.
What do you mean lack of content?
As for your scumbuddies I don't have the slightest clue - I'll have to reread D1.
All Ace said was that I'm scum - no reasoning or anything to back it up; why would I feel pressured to react? Additionally this has no bearing since my claim is independent of him accusing me of scum.
Both you and Ace are assuming I felt pressured enough by a random comment that I'm scum to fake-claim information against Ace. This especially doesn't make sense since there was no case against me - why would I fake a claim where I could easily get out of the analysis (indeed Ace's first attempt at throwing something was very poorly put together) The risk/reward doesn't line up here.
It's pretty obvious what I'm claiming if you read what I said. Still I'd rather not straight out claim it unless I have to.
As Skander already said, if you're talking about Skander's original post in response to Ace, I don't really see it as 'pushing back hard upon being threatened'. It was Skander's first post since night, it was his first chance to present new evidence.
Actually, the funny thing is, it didn't really turn me vs you until Ace said he didn't do anything last night. As it was, Ace could've claimed vigilante, saying he thought that AoL was his pick to most likely be scum. But since Ace claims he didn't do anything, now it's definitely turned into a 'me vs. you' situation.
Also, I don't see how a 'me vs. you' situation is 'not really townie behaviour'. When someone makes a cop claim, doesn't that usually devolve into a 'me vs. you' situation?
I agree. Reading through, I get the feeling almost entirely that Skander is town. The wagon accusation that Ace says doesn't seem to ring true, and regardless, I think the problem with using Keeper's wagon as a way of pinning someone is that...we were all on that wagon. I think the only person who said anything of the like that Keeper wasn't scum was AI, and, well, he's dead now.
I'm inclined to vote Ace because I don't find any reason to not believe Skander's accusation on him. I want to hear Ace's breakdown on what happened day 1 first, though.
I sorta get the feeling that he just didn't know what was expected. Our failure, I suppose, in not giving him all the info he needed to do it "right".
Agreed. After all the townieness you advanced D1, I'm very surprised that Ace would go after you. His analysis is going to need to be pretty stellar to convince me to go after you. I find it much more likely that he's scum attempting a gambit, but choosing the wrong target (not knowing that someone was watching his scum action). Regardless, we now know that one of you is lying, and that's a good place to start.
However, if we use the standard 9-3 town-scum ratio, we're at 6-3. A mislynch will more than likely result in D3 starting with 4 town, 3 scum, which is not a groovy place to be. I definitely await Ace's analysis.
If mystic 1110 doesn't post by this time tomorrow, he will be replaced.
Go Town!
And thus do empires and settlements fall
U can haz PBPA!
#10 – Random Vote. Irrelevant
#19 – Clarifies what the random stage is. Again, irrelevant.
#32 – Skander pushes for reasoning over S_P’s defensiveness; he also questions both AI and Keeperofzion on their plays.
#34 – At first glance this post seems harmless; however, glancing back at the first line, it seems that Skander is setting himself up to tackle anyone who attempts to stay in a random-phase mindset without moving onto what he terms “serious play”; at yet, his next line is that random = ok, serious = better; but didn’t he just say that random=bad? Interesting how he flips on this so quickly.
#38 – Note that Skander has no content, and simply asks questions at this point. Why? What evidence do you have? Seems to be what Skander asks.
#41 – Skander says he doesn’t want to make hasty conclusions. Trying for public approval?
#55 – Skander is fair enough in his reasoning here.
#57 – Huh?
#59 – Attempts to confirm keeper’s vote on gamerz.
#62 – The question of why keeper dropped a vote for a random vote and a FoS is discussed.
#70 – Skander seems to back off a bit.
#73 – Skander attempts to discern whether SP voted AI to kick-start the game, or was an actual vote. I think that it’s quite obvious it was a random vote.
#75 – “I thought it was obvious”. Actually, from the posts so far, it’s far from obvious. He’s attempted to reason out some voting patterns, but at no point has he said anything remotely like “SP is scum. This is why: XXX”. Skander has simply said that his vote was strange, but not inherently scummy in nature.
#78 – Skander backs off after S_P makes a post regarding his vote.
#92 – Pushes Keeper to Lynch -2, and calls for a claim. States that the wagon is fast, but good. Can it be both? Seems like a way to distance one’s self from a lynch claim without giving a definitive stance. States that gamerz is town.
#94 – Whoops – Skander is called out by A_I and attempts to justify his vote by saying that he’s sure it will allow for discussion. Wait – couldn’t this have been accomplished by…talking? Note that there is no unvote at this point.
#97 – Defines why Lynch -2 is claim time. Contradicts himself by saying that usually there is a general interest in the lynch happening, but the post before he has stated that the other 5 townies hadn’t responded to the issue. How is that a general interest?
#107 – Long post here. “Basically you started with the premise that me and KoZ are scumbuddies and then looked in every post to support this strategy. That is bad analysing behaviour.” I find this line interesting. Skander attempts to invalidate a complete argument against him by smearing it as “something you looked for, rather than analysed”.
#115 – Skander says that there is a general preparation for a Day 2 mislynch with scumbuddy talk. This is reaching, and a clear attempt to deflect attention to a non-existant issue.
#125 – Dismisses the KoZ/Skander scumbuddies theories as bad speculation. Does not answer *why*, but simply wipes it away.
#135 – Contentless post about inactives.
#141 – Discusses KoZ being the doc or not. Seems to slightly push a claim from KoZ by saying he’ll be lynched anyway.
#142 – Irrelevant link to another game (Batman Mafia)
#144 – Irrelevant post. Says who’s new, and who is not.
#145 – Irrelevant post.
#147 – Calls KoZ out for lurking again.
#152 – Nothing, again.
#161 – Says that Gamerz can look through the thread and find scummy posts by KoZ if he’s looking for them, simply because he *is* looking for them. This is flawed logic – posts should be scummy by nature, not by assumption. Of note: Skander is unsure on Freshman4ever. Says that he will look over at his posts later.
#163 – Oh wow – Skander actually does do a PBPA on Freshman. Freshman is apparently town. I’m not sure if I agree here, but I’m willing to put Freshman on my list of town, for now.
#179 - Feels that AI’s tone is different, but doesn’t mean much. A possible plant to refer to back later when wagoning AI?
#181 – Mentions how KoZ’s claim, if not a power role, will result in his lynching. Is this really a town attitude? Seems like a scum saying that he wants him lynched no matter what (barring a power role claim)
#196 – Pushes on KoZ (which, honestly, is justified at this point)
#203 – KoZ claims. Skander is not moved. Surprised? I’m not. It seems clear that Skander has wanted KoZ dead for a while. Interesting also is his reaction to the S_P/AI discussion.
#205 – Pseudo-Gaming the mod. Justified in commenting that it is unusual, but fencesits on whether it is scummy or not.
#207 – Good to see that a PBPA is only warranted if one is bored.
#212 – Ah! The juicy part! In his first sentence, Skander says he would rather see the lynch proceed without discussion, but then contradicts himself by saying he would like more comments on the lynch.
#215 – Attacks KoZ again. Is putting suspiscion on your attackers *really* that scummy? It’s a little far-fetched to assume that, and seems a knee-jerk reaction from Skander.
#225 – Asks some more questions, reiterating the case on KoZ.
#238 – Ah, Skander’s true failing. He essentially claims tracker here, and apparently it is I who visited Avatar of Lag, and (it is implied) that I killed him (Either as Vig or Scum) – Skander fails to consider that it may be a Vig kill.
#240 – Brilliant. As the PBPA analysis states, he was on the wagon for the majority of Day 1, however I wouldn’t consider it an adamant wagon. Rather, I would consider #141 & #181 amongst others as evidence that Skander has pushed the lynch, but allowed for an out should it turn sour.
#242 – “Assume makes an ass out of u & me’. Skander fails to consider alternatives to the situation – consider, if you will, if there really was a tracker in the game, that a watcher may also exist. Or a cop. Or another role which targets, but does not kill. Consider a vigilante existing. But no, SKander does not. He goes straight for the throat, assuming that his “ability” saw me target AoL, and therefore I must have killed him, and therefore I must be scum. This is an absurd assumption, and should highlight how very naïve Skander truly is if he wishes the town to believe him.
#244 – Oh joy – a contentless post out of spite. Skander could have sought to protect his good-name if he were town, but no – he decides to play the sarcasm game.
#246 – Yawn. Again, could have argued, but rather decided to see what scenarios I could come up with. Perhaps he thought he could use a few of them to get out of the hole he dug himself into with his tracker claim
#250 – No, Skander isn’t claiming Cop. He’s claiming Tracker, and a horrid claim at that. Skander says that he had no reason to react, and yet – he did. He reacted quite angrily, and called me out via his tracker claim. He says it doesn’t make sense to claim – but it does. A scum could get a mislynch, then use the gaming the mod angle to play the town. Or perhaps the scum have a good idea on who is cop now, and simply need another night to off him. Again, multiple scenarios which may or may not be useful without mod information
My “Skander is scum” post was essentially fuelled over a brief reading of Skander’s posts in the late Day 2, and how they seemed to truly lack analysis beyond posing questions and pushing KoZ with little care for others (barring the one PBPA he did, which he did to ‘confirm’ a townie – something which scum would be itching to do to solidify their townie positions in the town’s minds). Skander’s reaction was quite amusing – his playing of the tracker claim-card was his mistake. I did not target AoL last night, nor did S_P. Skander is talking out of his butt, and should I be lynched, he will be next up for the noose.
I have some ideas on who his buddies may be, but I would like to gauge some more reactions from this current situation before divulging my suspicions.
Yay! Stuff to analyze!
He did not at any time say 'random=bad'. This entire post is in response to AI's talk about random posts being good. Skander is merely clarifying that, yes random=good, but serious=better. Where in there does he say that 'random=bad'?
And what's wrong with that? Asking questions seems to me to be a great way to go scum-hunting.
Maybe, but what he said was in response to me trying to clarify something that Toastboy said. It would make sense to allow Toastboy to clarify himself as opposed to go on speculation from another player.
Are you kidding?!?! It was obvious? Heck, no! Especially considering that SP said that he was going to skip the random phase. Not to mention that he admits later that it wasn't random. We are reading through the same game here, aren't we?
I don't think that post was meant to say, 'why aren't you people realizing that I'm suspicious of SP?' but more to the point that, 'yes, I'm suspicious of SP, but where am I suspicious of AI?'
Also stated in that post that Keeper was presented with 2 options, AI is scum or AI is town and then voted AI. Sounds like a good reason to finally vote for him. He was right, the wagon was fast, but it was well-deserved. I'm really upset that we ended up lynching a townie, but with the way he was playing, he had it coming.
He didn't need to unvote. AI had just done that.
I'd say that having 5 people voting for you means that, yes, there is a 'general interest' in a lynch.
And I'd claim that you're doing the exact same thing on Skander right now. Although, with you, I think the problem also seems to be that you're only reading Skander's posts and not considering what he's responding to or how the game has gone up to that point.
Possible, but, honestly, I have no idea what he's even trying to say here.
Which I had basically said the post before.
That is exactly Skander's point! He was advising me that looking at posts under the assumption that the person is scum is not a good way to go about analyzing. As I said before, it's something that you seem to be doing in this PBPA on Skander.
Sure, but that's a null-tell more than anything else really. How is it scummy to want to note a difference in tone? Or at least, how is it more scummy than town?
'Will likely' result in his lynching is what he stated. Which was true. I was thinking the exact same thing.
And I'm still intrigued to know why SP was doing that. I asked before, and I'll ask again...do you know why SP wasn't saying anything about the KoZ lynch? For that matter, do you know why he was attacking AI so much? Especially knowing now that AI is town?
I can see why you'd think this suspicious, but I think this feels more like he's frustrated with the lack of posting (of which I am too), and is trying to get people to talk more. I must say that at that point, I was also getting very impatient waiting for people to comment.
Well...if you read it again, he didn't actually say that it's scummy, although, that does seem to be implied. And I'd say it's a reach to call it 'knee-jerk' considering that KoZ wasn't even attacking Skander there.
I do have to qusetion him on that. Skander, why is it that you assumed that Ace was scum, and not a Vigilante?
I'm not sure what you mean by #141 or #181 showing that he gave himself an out. Of course KoZ claiming a power role would give him an 'out'!! I think you're really reaching here.
Well, at that point in time, it's pretty obvious that, if Skander is being honest about tracking you, then you are scum. Considering that you said you didn't target anyone, there really can't be any other explanation. However, if that's why he voted you in the first place, then I'd have to question why.
Yeah, I'd have to say this is where Skander loses me a little, although, I can still see it as a pissed off townie who's frustrated.
Honestly, the way you've done this PBPA hasn't helped your case much, if at all. The way you've analyzed Skander's posts with a seeming 'assumed guilt' factor gives me off a vibe of 'scum who's trying to look for reasons to nail a townie'. I realize that it may be because you've come in the middle of the game, and haven't had all this time to analyze exactly how things have been going. At least as much as the rest of us.
I would definitely like some more information out of you on the game. Suich as answering my questions about SP's previous behaviour. Same with Skander and why he automatically assumed that Ace was scum.
I think that it is because Avatar of Lag didn't seem like scum. Why would a vigilante want to target him over somebody who was acting much scummier, like Freshman or AI?
That's a good point. I'd say it's a pretty safe assumption that AI would have been the Vig kill with AoL being the scum kill. The question at that point though is. Why would the scum kill AoL?
Have to agree with above statement, unless the vig was given extra info or has gone trigger happy AI was the probable vig kill.
I'll let you answer this very simple question: Where did I say that random=bad?
Here's the post for general reference.
And that is bad how? Questions lead to answers which leads to scum.
Like Gamerz said, the point was that I wanted to hear the answer from the original poster not from someone else who was just speculating.
What is the question here? I quoted myself to bring this point to KoZ's attention, since he had posted and not replied to it.
Wow, you lost me here. So when SP later clarifies that in fact was not a random vote do you also disagree with him? It was anything from obvious and I was in fact correct in assuming that it was not a random vote.
I had been pressing SP for answers while I had not been pressuring AI. You are correct that I did not say anywhere that I thought SP was scum - since at the time I wasn't sure - however I did find him acting scummy and so I was pressuring him.
And why can't it be both? I saw obvious scum in KoZ and so the fast wagon didn't bother me. Also a fast wagon isn't a definite sign of a mislynch; it could be that the person was playing so scummily that everyone realized it or it could even be that his buddies realized he's going to be lynched and so offered no resistance. Over here I weighed the options and decided that the fast wagon wasn't enough of a deterrent to ignore KoZ's masively scummy behaviour.
As gamerz pointed out there was no unvote needed because AI had done so. It could have been accomplished by talking but my point was that the vote would still allow for talk.
How is that not general interest? We had consecutive people vote KoZ. Wouldn't you call that general interest?
Ouch. Complete misrep here. I responded to every point of AI's, showing how it was wrong. After that, I pointed out the conclusion I came to. I didn't wipe away AI's arguments with that line - I had already done that through simple reasoning.
Perhaps I overreacted slightly, but both AI and freshman were talking as if I was KoZ's buddy at that point. It was not a non-existent issue. What would I be deflecting attention away from?
Burden of proof was not on me. AI had shown why he thought I was KoZ's buddy - I countered his arguments. It was incumbent on freshman and AI to show how I was KoZ's buddy.
Which was completely true.
Thank you for attacking me by repeating exactly what I said in that post. Are you even bothering to read them?
Snarkiness is unnecessary.
Misrep and reaching. Somebody had pointed that Ai's tone felt different and attacked him for it. I pointed out that although I saw how you could think the tone felt different it was not a reason to attack him.
Misrep. I said likely lynched - if there was extreme flavour reason to believe he was telling the truth and town when he claimed then he wouldn't be lynched.
What compelling reasons did KoZ give me to unvote? If anything his claim made him more scummy than before (what with the edit-post to tack on a part of his claim) and he was ignoring my questions.
Sarcasm totally unwarranted here. I had addressed almost every post by KoZ by that point - a PBPA would just consist of me copypasting my responses to his posts, nothing new added to the case just making it clearer for others to read, so no I would not have done something like that unless I was bored.
Again a misrep. I said that I don't feel the need to wait for the "whole town", however I did want more people to post before lynching KoZ. Whole town weighing in =/= more players weighing in.
A knee-jerk reaction to what? Besides, I never said it was *that* scummy, however instead of defending himself he chose to attack his attackers.
It was an educated guess. If vig killed AoL and scum killed AI then we have two actions that were dumb. It makes much more sense that the vig would go after the scummier target (AI) and scum would not kill someone under a lot of suspicion (again, AI).
Can you reach any further? Allowing myself an out? How about proper consideration for a power role.
Really? Who's assuming now? I never said that I was a Tracker. If I was a Watcher then I would know that you were the only one that targeted AoL last night and all your accusations are completely moot. So you are doing the exact same thing that you accused me of doing - failing to consider alternatives. If oversight makes me scum then what does that make you?
Regardless, you are correct: I am claiming Tracker. No, I did not know for sure that you were the only one to target AoL, but your predecessor's scummy behaviour was enough to make me jump to the conclusion that you killed AoL. A conclusion you confirmed when you said you didn't target anyone.
Protect my good name from what? Should I have done this:
You: "Skander is scum."
Me: "No I'm not."
You gave one argument against me which I easily blew out of the water (which is pretty much on par with the arguments you give in your PBPA), there was no arguing to be done.
Again, could have argued what? What reason did I have to react? How did I react?
What gaming the mod angle? If I got you lynched off my claim and you turned to be town how could I wiggle my way out of that?
If I was scum and knew who the cop was, why didn't I off him last night?
Every "scenario" you've provided as motivation for me claiming Tracker as scum just doesn't make any sense. Keep trying though.
Basically your PBPA on me is utter garbage. Most of the points in there are misreps. Sometimes it feels as if you haven't even read the thread - just looked at my posts and figured a way to spin them as scummy.
oooo. I'll wait for other people's responses to this, but I think I'm on Skander's side on this confrontation.
I agree that I was fence sitting here, mainly because there was nothing too substantial to either argument at this point, other than opposing statements, that one or the other is scum. Ace had yet to do his PBPA and Skander did not say much more than "I tracked you to AoL's house". Without the further information I asked for (and which was given), there would be no way to make a proper decision, in my mind, on which argument was false.
I concur that AI is likely a vig target. As to why AoL...well, when I was scum, we talked about choosing odd targets to confuse the town. I wouldn't be surprised to see this aimed at throwing us off the trail that way. But any attempts to identify the purpose (point blame at someone who was suspicious of AoL, pseudo-clear someone who had defended AoL, etc.) are WIFOM.
Ace's response isn't doing it for me. His snarky lolcatz lead-in feels nervous and forced, and his PBPA is lacking. Skander felt solid town to me from the word "go"; if he says that he tracked Ace, I believe him. And if Ace denied performing any action last night, and Skander did track him, then Ace is lying, be he vig or be he scum. Basic tenet of the game: lynch all liars.
Vote: Ace
Skander: 1(Ace)
Ace: 2(Skander, Cantripmancer)
Honestly, that was the tipping point. I'm pretty sure that, even if I hadn't noticed it, that I would have still voted for him anyways, but just the oddity of it, and not being able to come up with much of any other reason, made me quite confident (along with everything else) that he was scum.
And that's what's bugging me about this whole thing too. If Ace is scum, then why didn't he claim Vig at that point? It seems like it would be a better strategy with many more 'outs' to it. Although, I guess, the problem with claiming vig is that Ace would have to explain why he went after AoL. And that looks like a really big hole to dig oneself out of.
Also, I don't see why a scum wouldn't be confident with their PBPA. What better way to look townie?
Skander's response to Ace's PBPA feels very townie to me. He is defending the attacks on himself reasonably without attacking Ace on anything unless it seems warranted. Contrast this with Ace's PBPA where a majority of his attacks on Skander seem to be either reaching for somethign, or a complete misinterpretation of the facts. It seems to have been hastily done as if he needed something to back up his original vote.
To sum that up, Ace's attacks seem to be made from someone on the ropes desperate to smear their opposition, while Skander's response seems to be made from someone who is confident that the town will see through his opponent's attacks and make the right choice based on the facts.
Vote Ace
Will reply to most of my posts when I grab some free time in the next day or two. It will happen, but not as quick as some might like.
I would like to say however, that surely I would have chosen a better avenue to both attack Skander, and give myself an out to the tracker claim. Any self-respecting scum would claim cop or the like in this situation, possibly even another targetting ability such as watcher, notlead a case on another player.
I will admit that my PBPA was bias, but then again, it was done with the perspective that Skander is scum. This is bias, but true - and I shall respond to Skander's responses to my PBPA (believe me, it's not one of my better (nor impartial) PBPAs).
Skander may look like town to many of you, but should I be lynched and when I flip town, you are to lynch him.
More to come as time allows.
Because he was the only person on my radar besides for KoZ most of D1. True, I didn't express much suspicion on him but I didn't express suspicion about anyone else. He was my number 2 scum after KoZ. If you read D1 that much should be clear.
How likely do you think a lynch on Ace would have been? Sure SP was lurking D1 and did a couple of scummy things but people would brush those off to RL issues. Also he had just gotten replaced which generally starts people on a clean slate since they can't answer why their predecessor did the scummy things they did.