(Remember that time when kpaca said, "Let's not be silly, boys and girls. Toastboy is definitely town." and he eventually looked very scummy-despite being town? This is kind of like that, only kpaca tends to exaggerate by stating that his hunches are 100% teh right.)
Why are my posts so confusing? No-one has been able to tell me so far...
I think it has to do with the fact that some of your posts have weird punctuation usage and you sometimes misspell, omit, or merge words together. When you don't EBWOP either, people are just lost.
Cantrip is right, though. You also have some moments of great clarity and can see situations from just the right perspective. However, it's usually the "WTF?" posts that people remember more readily.
I wouldn't look too much into it. L-3 is far from lynching range, and it would take some level of stupidity for all three (that being the likely number) scum to kill me from there.
I'm much more interested in why Silent Prophet thinks I'm scum. If his reasoning is legitimate, I'll focus on someone else, but for now, he's the only player whose posts have been more scummy than neutral.
I wouldn't look too much into it. L-3 is far from lynching range, and it would take some level of stupidity for all three (that being the likely number) scum to kill me from there.
I'm not worried about a mislynch happening - I don't think it's really possible to happen like that, I was curious as to what motivation someone would have to put you to that number for no reason. And I'm glad I looked into it because his answer led me to a more important question (that you caught onto as well): If he was serious voting you then why did he drop it for a random vote and downgrade it to a FoS?
lHmm. I'm thinking the random phase is pretty much gone eh?
Darn, I was hoping to have more fun. Not that one can't have some fun in the serious stage. I like to try to lighten the mood...especially when things get heated.
Anywho, onto some notations.
I'm still waiting to hear something from SP. I'm not really suspicious of him or anything at the moment, I'm just curious to hear what he has to say about what's gone on so far. Especially since some of what has happened was triggered by the discourse between him and AI. At least he should be happy that we seem to be finished with the random stage.
Reading back too, I am also beginning to wonder why Toastboy noted Skander's laying of suspicion on SP, but mentioned nothing about AI, who was the first to lay the suspicion. I can see why he'd say Giga's vote is good, though; it came a little later, after the random stage seemed to be over.
As far as AI is concerned...you laid suspicion on SP for saying that he was skipping the random stage mentioning that he was trying to 'confuse' the town. And yet, you did the same thing, making a 'not random' post during, not just the random stage, but the early part of the random stage, before most people had even posted. If anything, that was pretty confusing, cause now I have to wrap my head around this whole mess of "You started it! No you did! Neener neener!" and "Wait, was it actually random or not?" You state that it was not random, yet the wording made it seem like it was said in jest.
And I will go on the record to say that the whole SP/AI thing could be a ploy. Probably not, but, you never really know. Then again, you could probably say that about a lot of things that go on. Sometimes I really don't understand how this game can end up evolving past a long WIFOM circle.
Also...Keeper...the heck? I'm all for random voting, but I think that it probably works if your random 'reason' is original. Otherwise you're just confusing people as to whether your vote is actually random or not.
If someone claims that they are an unlynchable, unkillable, octa-voter, with 4 daykills and 6 doc-protects, then technically lynching that person solely based on his claim would be gaming the mod, but I would be just fine doing that.
To summarize: Random voting is fine, but mixing serious and random votes/attacks is a recipe for disaster. Scumdars should be beeping.
well actually i was just paying attention while catching up with the previous posts. and i agree with Cantripmancer that OCD is scummy, so i don't think that it is random at all.
As far as AI is concerned...you laid suspicion on SP for saying that he was skipping the random stage mentioning that he was trying to 'confuse' the town. And yet, you did the same thing, making a 'not random' post during, not just the random stage, but the early part of the random stage, before most people had even posted. If anything, that was pretty confusing, cause now I have to wrap my head around this whole mess of "You started it! No you did! Neener neener!" and "Wait, was it actually random or not?" You state that it was not random, yet the wording made it seem like it was said in jest.
I can see why that would be confusing. I suppose the best way to put it would be to say that while we were still in the random phase, I wanted to do some nonrandom things that people would be able to check back upon later, because relevant things happened that I did not want to let slide. In a way, I was forced to be nonrandom when I really wanted to just be goofy. As for the tone of voice, I talk strangely at times. Get used to it.
And I will go on the record to say that the whole SP/AI thing could be a ploy. Probably not, but, you never really know. Then again, you could probably say that about a lot of things that go on. Sometimes I really don't understand how this game can end up evolving past a long WIFOM circle.
I'm glad someone around here is willing to take a risk. Definitely townish play.
As for how to avoid WIFOM, I try to base my conclusions not on what I think people would do in certain situations, but what they have done and what they say they will do, then look at the motivations behind those words.
I can't get into your mind, but I can do almost as well by reading your intentions.
well actually i was just paying attention while catching up with the previous posts. and i agree with Cantripmancer that OCD is scummy, so i don't think that it is random at all.
Disagree. I am very meticulous when it comes to posting, and will almost always EBWOP if I see any kind of error in my posts. This is not at all a scum-tell.
Disagree. I am very meticulous when it comes to posting, and will almost always EBWOP if I see any kind of error in my posts. This is not at all a scum-tell.
well that's just an opinion. vote stands, though. until of course something changes my mind.
You have voted Gamrerz and FoSed AI? Both are serious? Please explain your reasoning.
This 'my vote can change!' seems overly defensive and artificial.
Of course it can change. i voted for Gamerz because of his peculiar attitude the last posts that he made. forst was the OCD thing that I agree with Cantripmancer since i've noticed before that those who are sort of confused as to what they're gonna do next or something like that end up scum. On the other hand, my FoS on AI is because of the weirdness of the long posts he is making. It shows that he wants to be in control and in-the-know of what's happening, thus making it quite suspicious.
KoZ: Hmmm. Saying that the vote on gamerz throws me off. I obviously don't have the earlier point anymore. I will say that the vote is bad though. You can call it a matter of opinion or whatever but being meticilous about points has nothing to do with alignment.
Toastboy: Well if you claim the AI thing was an oversight then I guess that's all. I disagree with the gigas1 point but I see where where you're coming from.
Of course it can change. i voted for Gamerz because of his peculiar attitude the last posts that he made. forst was the OCD thing that I agree with Cantripmancer since i've noticed before that those who are sort of confused as to what they're gonna do next or something like that end up scum. On the other hand, my FoS on AI is because of the weirdness of the long posts he is making. It shows that he wants to be in control and in-the-know of what's happening, thus making it quite suspicious.
So wait...you voted me because I templated my post poorly and then said that I wished I could edit it to make it look nicer? Because I'm pretty sure that that was what Cantripmancer jokingly was referring to when he voted me for that reason. I'm pretty sure it was just a random vote with a silly reason given. Then again, I can't really say for him.
You, on the other hand, are very adamant about seriously voting me for that reason. Which gives me pause, because, to me, it hints that you are either scum trying to start a bandwagon (although, honestly, I would weep if one got rolling on me because of that particular reason), or just trying to confuse everyone in general, or maybe a townie trying to use a gambit of "Hey, I'll vote someone for a really crappy reason and see how people react". Or perhaps I'm missing something else altogether?
As far as AI goes, I can sort of see why you'd FoS for that. It's hard to tell if what he's doing is because he's scum and wants to be in control and to help direct people towards others who are not scum...or if he's just townie and trying to helpful because...well...he's townie, that's what townies should do. I'm leaning towards townie, because I'm thinking that scum wouldn't try to expose themselves that much and I like the reason he stated for why his initial posts seemed a little confusing. Thanks for clearing that up AI.
If someone claims that they are an unlynchable, unkillable, octa-voter, with 4 daykills and 6 doc-protects, then technically lynching that person solely based on his claim would be gaming the mod, but I would be just fine doing that.
In this instance, there is no real basis to the claim, since my initial attitude toward Silent Prophet has nothing to do with this game, or Mafia at all for that matter, but rather because he's a member of the Called (as stated), a MTGS Clan that has in the past been at odds with the reigning Clan of the Year, the Izzet (:link:).
Only because the Izzet cheated in one of the contests.:teach:
Oh, and another reason to vote Silent Prophet: By refusing to participate in the random stage, he does not leave a voting record. This is actually a scum-tell, albeit a very, very weak one.
in the "random stage." I asked him if it was serious or not, and his reply was this:
Also, that is not a random post, but most people will probably ignore it because it was made during the random phase.
To me, the random stage ends when people start posting serious things. The fact that he was making serious posts and still encouraging the continuation of the random phase made me feel as if he was going to use the random phase as a mask for future posts. If people ignore the first serious post in the random phase, then surely they'll ignore any scummy ones he would make as well.
That being said, we have finally broken out of the random phase and have a few leads to follow due to reactions/actions in regards to my/AI's posts. I will post a rundown of who I believe to be the most solid leads after my niece's neurologist appointment.
Unvote
The vote has served it's purpose. It got people talking in a non-random manner.
First you say the vote was because AI was being serious but still encourarging random. But then you unvote saying that the vote served it's purpose getting people to be serious.
Was it meant as a kick-start to the game or as a real vote against AI?
Sorry for not being involved in this game, im busy till sunday, after that i can start posting much more regulatory. Again Sorry.
Till then let me give some of my current viewpoints as i read through the thread:
1) poor random stage we hardly knew you. So Unvote
2) How is OCD scummy?
3) Zion's vote on Gamerz for OCD, just feels scummy all over.
4) 4 votes on AI in the random stage, thats all it was just Random.
5) SP vs AI, so far it seams like they a both townies that are really trying hard to scum hunt each other, while the scum stand off to the side edging it on.
6) IRL mafia is much more random, and fun. Yet the arguements are dumber "OMG you blinked, SCUM!!!"
7) I have a scummy feeling about skander, who is basically playing neutral in the SP vs AI posts, while laying suspiscion on both. Could be a scum fueling the flames.
8) Hope everything is alright with your Niece SP.
9) The Random stage this time was really confusing, we have now multiple posts that are huge (thanks AI + Gamerz :-/), when i do get back into the game on sunday, ill read them in debth, but i also doubt anything viable is contained within them. Reason being is at the moment is hard to seperate random fun from tells, and any 'real' arguement atm will just disolve into WIFOM.
7) I have a scummy feeling about skander, who is basically playing neutral in the SP vs AI posts, while laying suspiscion on both. Could be a scum fueling the flames.
I thought it was obvious I'm suspicious of SP. Where am I laying suspicion on AI?
I don't know if nom is town or scum. But I'd like to point out this type of behavior is his standard modus operandi.
Court Mafia: Day 1, hatch plan to KILL EVERYONE ELSE IN A SINGLE NIGHT, when the plan only allows him to hit 11 random players, ATTEMPTS TO FIRE ANYHOW (Roleblocked).
In other words....Nom is an impulsive player who doesn't think about planning long-term or listening to others. I wouldn't be surprised if he was town. At all.
First you say the vote was because AI was being serious but still encourarging random. But then you unvote saying that the vote served it's purpose getting people to be serious.
Was it meant as a kick-start to the game or as a real vote against AI?
I was suspicious of AI for encouragin random and being serious at the same time; all that does is encourage confusion, which is bad for the town.
I ordinarily would have just marked it down as a suspicious post and moved on, but I wanted to see how many people would try use my vote as an excuse to vote with no reasoning. If I believed in FoSes, that is all the stronger my suspicion was, if that.
My vote allowed two things to happen; it showed that I am somewhat suspicious of AI, and it allowed some people to make some small mistakes, in my opinion. We have more to go on now than if I had never voted.
I was suspicious of AI for encouragin random and being serious at the same time; all that does is encourage confusion, which is bad for the town.
I ordinarily would have just marked it down as a suspicious post and moved on, but I wanted to see how many people would try use my vote as an excuse to vote with no reasoning. If I believed in FoSes, that is all the stronger my suspicion was, if that.
My vote allowed two things to happen; it showed that I am somewhat suspicious of AI, and it allowed some people to make some small mistakes, in my opinion. We have more to go on now than if I had never voted.
I will be out of town for the long weekend, so you can expect to see my next post on Tuesday (hence the unvote).
Just a comment before I go:
FoS: Gigas I've seen two posts from you (admittedly one was in the random phase so I can't really say that is evidence), but both have been a vote + half a line of simplistic reasoning. Some original content or insight would be appreciated.
Of course it can change. i voted for Gamerz because of his peculiar attitude the last posts that he made. forst was the OCD thing that I agree with Cantripmancer since i've noticed before that those who are sort of confused as to what they're gonna do next or something like that end up scum. On the other hand, my FoS on AI is because of the weirdness of the long posts he is making. It shows that he wants to be in control and in-the-know of what's happening, thus making it quite suspicious.
That seems very vague. I'm not at all liking your rationale for the vote and FoS. Cantripmancer was obviously joking, but opportunistic scum instinctively jump on what they consider wounded prey. Too bad Gamerz didn't crumble under the pressure. Considering information-gathering is about as townish as you could get - the scum already know who the townies are - now we're left with you looking scummy without an adequate explanation as to why you're basing an attack on a flippant joke and why my "weird," "long" posts deserve an FoS.
AI posted this:in the "random stage." I asked him if it was serious or not, and his reply was this:
To me, the random stage ends when people start posting serious things. The fact that he was making serious posts and still encouraging the continuation of the random phase made me feel as if he was going to use the random phase as a mask for future posts. If people ignore the first serious post in the random phase, then surely they'll ignore any scummy ones he would make as well.
It would take some stupid townies for theoretical scum-AI to get away with that. I do trust that there are some competent players in this group?
In all seriousness, that line of reasoning falls apart when you realize that nothing in Mafia falls through the cracks. Even if one person skips over something significant, someone else will invariably mention it. I'll try to not make scummy plays/get mislynched/screw over the town, if that would make you feel better.
I was suspicious of AI for encouragin random and being serious at the same time; all that does is encourage confusion, which is bad for the town.
I ordinarily would have just marked it down as a suspicious post and moved on, but I wanted to see how many people would try use my vote as an excuse to vote with no reasoning. If I believed in FoSes, that is all the stronger my suspicion was, if that.
My vote allowed two things to happen; it showed that I am somewhat suspicious of AI, and it allowed some people to make some small mistakes, in my opinion. We have more to go on now than if I had never voted.
Your suspicions are semi-warranted. Though the beginning of this game probably threw a few people off guard, I don't think people will be as confused from here on out, now that our respective gambits have played their course, revealing our true target.
I'm pretty sure you're not scum.
keeper is the one who I'll be focusing on for the foreseeable future.
It would take some stupid townies for theoretical scum-AI to get away with that. I do trust that there are some competent players in this group?
In all seriousness, that line of reasoning falls apart when you realize that nothing in Mafia falls through the cracks. Even if one person skips over something significant, someone else will invariably mention it. I'll try to not make scummy plays/get mislynched/screw over the town, if that would make you feel better.
The thing is...I'm not sure if that's entirely true. I'm pretty sure there are some things that can fall through the cracks. Seeing as this is my first time playing, I'm entirely sure of any good examples, but my intuition leads me to believe that people will make mistakes in the game and miss things sometimes. Especially seeing as this is a basic game and there are some 'newbs' who wouldn't spot things that others might.
That's really been my biggest fear entering this game...that I'm going to miss 'tells' or, more importantly, misread tells in the game. Granted, like you said, that's what the more experienced players are there for, but then again, those same experienced people could also be scum, and know what not to do, or how to hide things.
Quite frankly, I just don't trust anyone, so please don't mind if there's advice that you veterans spew out that I don't necessarily agree with. It's not that I don't think you know what you're talking about...it's that I just don't necessarily trust you.
If someone claims that they are an unlynchable, unkillable, octa-voter, with 4 daykills and 6 doc-protects, then technically lynching that person solely based on his claim would be gaming the mod, but I would be just fine doing that.
Also, I'd like to take this opportunity to rant against those who complain about long posts. Seriously? That's a complaint? If anything, I'd complain about people not saying enough, really. All we have to go on here is what we say, so the more we say and explain ourselves, the better, imo.
Then again, I'm one of those people who can go onto long diatribes, so I might be slightly biased in my opinion on that subject. I just like to go into detail about what I mean to clear up any misunderstandings that people might have about what I have to say. So, if you're not sure what I mean by something, then just ask; I'll gladly try to explain (assuming that you have no problem with what could be a long response ).
If someone claims that they are an unlynchable, unkillable, octa-voter, with 4 daykills and 6 doc-protects, then technically lynching that person solely based on his claim would be gaming the mod, but I would be just fine doing that.
I'd like to hear from Freshman about what he thinks on what's been written lately. Looking back, he's been the only person who hasn't posted in over 24 hours...other than those who have given us a reason for being away, that is.
If someone claims that they are an unlynchable, unkillable, octa-voter, with 4 daykills and 6 doc-protects, then technically lynching that person solely based on his claim would be gaming the mod, but I would be just fine doing that.
It's a bit of generalization. It's not impossible that a scum-tell would go unnoticed, but that's why dedicated townies go back and do several rereads until they are reasonably sure that they know who the scum are.
It would also be very odd if every mafioso in this game is an experienced Mafia player, though also not impossible.
I'd like to hear from Freshman about what he thinks on what's been written lately. Looking back, he's been the only person who hasn't posted in over 24 hours...other than those who have given us a reason for being away, that is.
I think the conflict between AI and SP has pretty much gotten over itself. Suspicion about the "scumbuddies" from earlier is pretty much gone.
Keeper is the one I have my eyes on now. Some awkward posts that don't make too much sense.
FoS: Gigas I've seen two posts from you (admittedly one was in the random phase so I can't really say that is evidence), but both have been a vote + half a line of simplistic reasoning. Some original content or insight would be appreciated.
Yeah, sorry about that. I know I should have posted this earlier, but I'm on a trip. The simplistic reasoning would be because I am apparently not too good at this game.
Unvote
Vote KeeperofZion
Because, as far as I know, OMGUS votes don't usually happen outside the random phase because they don't really seem to help the town. And his other reason of voting because of long posts again doesn't make sense.
My eyes as of now are on AI but some others are still on the peripheral.
well actually i was just paying attention while catching up with the previous posts. and i agree with Cantripmancer that OCD is scummy, so i don't think that it is random at all.
O.o Seriously? You're seriously attacking someone for wanting to edit their typos? And no, my vote was NOT serious. It was OMGUS for Gamerz's spaghetti slur. OCD was a convenient silliness.
I can see why that would be confusing. I suppose the best way to put it would be to say that while we were still in the random phase, I wanted to do some nonrandom things that people would be able to check back upon later, because relevant things happened that I did not want to let slide. In a way, I was forced to be nonrandom when I really wanted to just be goofy.
This feels...almost contrived. Believable, but a little constructed, maybe.
Quote from AI »
I'm glad someone around here is willing to take a risk. Definitely townish play.
Um, what? How is he taking a risk? He "goes on record" and then leaves himself not just one, but TWO outs.
I ordinarily would have just marked it down as a suspicious post and moved on, but I wanted to see how many people would try use my vote as an excuse to vote with no reasoning. If I believed in FoSes, that is all the stronger my suspicion was, if that.
My vote allowed two things to happen; it showed that I am somewhat suspicious of AI, and it allowed some people to make some small mistakes, in my opinion. We have more to go on now than if I had never voted.
I'm not sure I believe this "I saw an opportunity for a ploy and took it; it might not have caught scum, but at least people are talking." Of course your vote highlighted suspicion of AI...that's what a vote does. What mistakes do you feel people have made?
That's really been my biggest fear entering this game...that I'm going to miss 'tells' or, more importantly, misread tells in the game. Granted, like you said, that's what the more experienced players are there for, but then again, those same experienced people could also be scum, and know what not to do, or how to hide things.
Don't worry about it too much; go with your gut, especially this first game, and then let the outcomes start to shape your play in the future.
Quote from Gamerz »
Quite frankly, I just don't trust anyone, so please don't mind if there's advice that you veterans spew out that I don't necessarily agree with. It's not that I don't think you know what you're talking about...it's that I just don't necessarily trust you.I find this a very healthy attitude. But don't close yourself off completely. I have a longstanding (4 games-worth) attitude of being distrustful of the "vets".
If by "OMGUS," you were referring to your own vote, that would be accurate. My reasons for voting you are apparent and logical, which are not trademarks of an OMGUS vote. Your reasons...not so much.
This feels...almost contrived. Believable, but a little constructed, maybe.
I called SP out for what looked like a scummy move. I didn't think it was a very scummy move, but it was all I had to work with at the time. I also wanted to see if he would flip out under pressure, which he didn't, but he did react more strongly than I expected.
I didn't want to end the random phase then, since it's selfish to prevent others from having the fun of dicking around at the start of a new thread.
I'm not sure how I can be more clear on that.
Um, what? How is he taking a risk? He "goes on record" and then leaves himself not just one, but TWO outs.
I called him out, and he didn't back down. His "outs" feel more like a new townie trying to explain his gut feelings in a way that makes sense to other players. It's the posting style more than the face-value content that makes me lean toward town in his case.
Um, what? How is he taking a risk? He "goes on record" and then leaves himself not just one, but TWO outs.
And I'd have to agree with you, actually. I don't think it was that much of a risk at all. My suspicion about any SP/AI ploy was (and still is) minimal, but as I recently stated, I don't necessarily trust anyone, and I wanted to go 'on the record' to state that a ploy could be true. Not really a risk at all. Heck, you could theoretically say that saying anything at all is 'risky', but that doesn't really stop anyone from posting.
Don't worry about it too much; go with your gut, especially this first game, and then let the outcomes start to shape your play in the future.
There is one piece of advice I think I'll be taking. I think I'm worrying too much about making the wrong choices this game in deciding who is scum, when I should just go with my gut...and if I'm wrong, then I'll learn from the choices I made and use what I've learned to help make better choices next time.
On that note, I've been wondering about Keeper. The reasons he's had for voting for or being suspicious of people have been really lame and, as others have stated, seemed pretty scummy. My gut says that he seems so obviously scummy. But I keep second-guessing myself on whether to vote for him or not, because...well...it almost seems too obvious.
I keep wondering if he's really scum, or if there's some other reason for him doing what he's been doing. Perhaps a gambit to see what others say about him and if they say anything 'scummy' in response to what he's stated. But even taking that into account, I'd vote for him anyways because I'm not really worried about falling into a trap.
Then there's the thought that maybe he's just a newb townie (is this your first game Keeper?) who doesn't know what he's doing. But it would seem more likely that, if this is his first game, what he's doing seems more like newb scum who's looking for excuses to vote for people. Especially with the excuses he's using. Voting me for wanting my posts to seem more clean and clear, and AI for his long posts...both of those things are things I would want the town to be doing...making things clear so there's less confusion (making things confusing seems like it would make it easier for scum to paint townies in a bad light) and long posts are good for getting our opinions out, which is what we need in order to see what people think, making it easier to see people's motivations and reasons for doing things, and gives more opportunity for the scum to mess up and say something wrong.
In conclusion, I think I'm gonna go with my gut and
If someone claims that they are an unlynchable, unkillable, octa-voter, with 4 daykills and 6 doc-protects, then technically lynching that person solely based on his claim would be gaming the mod, but I would be just fine doing that.
O.o Seriously? You're seriously attacking someone for wanting to edit their typos? And no, my vote was NOT serious. It was OMGUS for Gamerz's spaghetti slur. OCD was a convenient silliness.
Seriously? Oh well. I guess i was mistaken then.
Quote from Gamerz »
Then there's the thought that maybe he's just a newb townie (is this your first game Keeper?) who doesn't know what he's doing. But it would seem more likely that, if this is his first game, what he's doing seems more like newb scum who's looking for excuses to vote for people. Especially with the excuses he's using. Voting me for wanting my posts to seem more clean and clear, and AI for his long posts...both of those things are things I would want the town to be doing...making things clear so there's less confusion (making things confusing seems like it would make it easier for scum to paint townies in a bad light) and long posts are good for getting our opinions out, which is what we need in order to see what people think, making it easier to see people's motivations and reasons for doing things, and gives more opportunity for the scum to mess up and say something wrong
Yes, this would technically be my first. And actually, you may be a bit right about me being a newb as well. About AI, I just felt suspicious since posting really long shows he wants to remain in control of what's happening here. And that shows only two things; a townie who really wants to take the lead, or scum who wants to make sure that everything is in control in their favor.
Yes, this would technically be my first. And actually, you may be a bit right about me being a newb as well. About AI, I just felt suspicious since posting really long shows he wants to remain in control of what's happening here. And that shows only two things; a townie who really wants to take the lead, or scum who wants to make sure that everything is in control in their favor.
Sooo. You anaylyze the situation and two options present themselves: AI as scum or AI as town. And therefore you vote AI...
The wagon seems a little fast but well deserved.
Vote Keeper of Zion
That's L-2. Claim time.
In other news, I'm fairly certain Gamerz is town. What number game is this for you Gamerz?
FoS Skander for forcing a claim before half of the players in this game even had a chance to comment on the wagon.
While keeper's play is scummy, I think you're going way too fast. I don't think townies should try to get other townies to claim purely for informational purposes, since this gives the scum more information as to who might have a power role. Your play right now is distinctly anti-town, despite how good your intentions may be.
Unvote FoS keeperofzion
...not because he's less scummy than before, but because I want other people to give their input before he claims.
AI: Perhaps I was a tad hasty but you know where this is going. We already have mystic's feelings about KoZ ( he said the vote on Gamerz for OCD felt scummy) and I doubt KoZ's recent behaviour will do much to change that. You have to assume that the remaining 5 players will ALL not want to lynch KoZ (not happening) in order to call my move anti-town. I do agree however that more talk is good, I just think you're being overly cautious.
hmmm. I'm not sure what to think about the jumping on Keeper's back. I def. think he's the obvious choice but I'm not sure I want to jump on it yet. I don't want to be wrong.
Forgive me for asking but...why is L-2 automatically proclaimed as 'claim time'? From reading other games, I can see this seems to almost be a given, as if it's tradition or something, but I'm uncertain as to how it came about to be that way.
In other news, I'm fairly certain Gamerz is town. What number game is this for you Gamerz?
This is my first game. I did a mostly full read-through of the last few basic games, as well as reading some of the articles that are in the stickies in this forum though. Mostly ones about strategies and ways of being able to differentiate between a scum and townie. I'll probably end up forming my own strategies and such, but they gave me a good starting point on forming them.
If someone claims that they are an unlynchable, unkillable, octa-voter, with 4 daykills and 6 doc-protects, then technically lynching that person solely based on his claim would be gaming the mod, but I would be just fine doing that.
Forgive me for asking but...why is L-2 automatically proclaimed as 'claim time'? From reading other games, I can see this seems to almost be a given, as if it's tradition or something, but I'm uncertain as to how it came about to be that way.
L-2 is taken to be a point where there is enough interest in the lynch that it will probably happen shortly. L-3 is far away from a lynch (especially in a mini) and L-1 is just overkill. Waiting until L-1 is also considered a little risky (as someone may hammer at that point with an excuse that they didn't notice the vote count).
Some people do take the L-2 as very significant though which is just silly. I've seen people heading toward a lynch say "OK I'll claim for you guys but first push me to L-2", which is pretty pointless since it really isn't the number that makes the difference but rather the general interest in seeing the lynch happen.
L-2 is taken to be a point where there is enough interest in the lynch that it will probably happen shortly. L-3 is far away from a lynch (especially in a mini) and L-1 is just overkill. Waiting until L-1 is also considered a little risky (as someone may hammer at that point with an excuse that they didn't notice the vote count).
Some people do take the L-2 as very significant though which is just silly. I've seen people heading toward a lynch say "OK I'll claim for you guys but first push me to L-2", which is pretty pointless since it really isn't the number that makes the difference but rather the general interest in seeing the lynch happen.
Mmm, that makes sense. I think it was just the way you worded it that made it sound like "Ok, he's at L-2, claim or else".
As far as keeper being at L-2 and claiming and such, I'm thinking that AI has a good point in that we should wait for others to weigh in on the situation. Not just for the reason of hearing if other people have thoughts on whether to proceed to an actual lynch or not, but so that, if we do go to a lynch, that we might have some more to go on. If we lynch really quickly, we have more of a chance of going into day 2 without much of a clue as to which direction to head next.
If someone claims that they are an unlynchable, unkillable, octa-voter, with 4 daykills and 6 doc-protects, then technically lynching that person solely based on his claim would be gaming the mod, but I would be just fine doing that.
AI: Perhaps I was a tad hasty but you know where this is going. We already have mystic's feelings about KoZ ( he said the vote on Gamerz for OCD felt scummy) and I doubt KoZ's recent behaviour will do much to change that. You have to assume that the remaining 5 players will ALL not want to lynch KoZ (not happening) in order to call my move anti-town. I do agree however that more talk is good, I just think you're being overly cautious.
As of now, I just want to make sure that I was wrong in thinking that Cantripmancer was serious. As I said before, this is technically my first game. I am even hardly familiar with what Random voting stage was before. But eventually it cleared itself up and that's why i don't vote because of those reasons anymore.
Quote from Gamerz »
As far as keeper being at L-2 and claiming and such, I'm thinking that AI has a good point in that we should wait for others to weigh in on the situation. Not just for the reason of hearing if other people have thoughts on whether to proceed to an actual lynch or not, but so that, if we do go to a lynch, that we might have some more to go on. If we lynch really quickly, we have more of a chance of going into day 2 without much of a clue as to which direction to head next.
Wait, I'm still confused. I get the L-2 part, but what does it mean if someone's claiming?
in other news, unvote. I need more time to think about which direction i'm going to take and, as what someone else had said, listen to what my gut is saying; which is to not be hasty and to think more.
Mmm, that makes sense. I think it was just the way you worded it that made it sound like "Ok, he's at L-2, claim or else".
Well, that was the general gist of it. If he were still at L-2 and did not claim now, it would be considered extremely scummy, and he would have to do something drastic in order to not get autolynched.
As far as keeper being at L-2 and claiming and such, I'm thinking that AI has a good point in that we should wait for others to weigh in on the situation. Not just for the reason of hearing if other people have thoughts on whether to proceed to an actual lynch or not, but so that, if we do go to a lynch, that we might have some more to go on. If we lynch really quickly, we have more of a chance of going into day 2 without much of a clue as to which direction to head next.
You are 100% correct. Rushing into night only helps the scum (since day is the only period during which townies can communicate) which is another reason Skander's play is particularly troubling.
This is about the time to consider whether Skander and keeper may be scumbuddies and if Skander is "bussing" keeper to make himself appear more like a townie.
As of now, I just want to make sure that I was wrong in thinking that Cantripmancer was serious. As I said before, this is technically my first game. I am even hardly familiar with what Random voting stage was before. But eventually it cleared itself up and that's why i don't vote because of those reasons anymore.
OK? Playing the "n00b card" does not usually work, and will often bite you in the ass.
in other news, unvote. I need more time to think about which direction i'm going to take and, as what someone else had said, listen to what my gut is saying; which is to not be hasty and to think more.
Actually, what you need is to try to explain your actions in a satisfactory manner.
Namely:
Do you still think "being OCD" is a scum-tell?
Do you still think long posts are a scum-tell? If so, why are they a stronger scum-tell than "being OCD?"
Why did Gamerz's "OCD" and my long posts justify votes?
We're also waiting on several others to give their opinions. Let's try not to force Keeper to claim until everyone has a chance to be appraised, mmmk?
Since no one posted yesterday, I'll go ahead and analyze the Skander-Keeper interactions for possible scumbuddying. Warning: There is more WIFOM in this post than I'd care for, but nothing here is an absolute statement. Consider it thinking out loud.
This is about the time to consider whether Skander and keeper may be scumbuddies and if Skander is "bussing" keeper to make himself appear more like a townie.
KeeperofZion: Why did you push AI up to a fourth vote?
This is a perfectly neutral question where one would expect some kind of accusatory, or at the very least, confused tone of voice. It also feels like Skander is coaching Keeper. ("Don't do that, Keeper!")
I'm not worried about a mislynch happening - I don't think it's really possible to happen like that, I was curious as to what motivation someone would have to put you to that number for no reason. And I'm glad I looked into it because his answer led me to a more important question (that you caught onto as well): If he was serious voting you then why did he drop it for a random vote and downgrade it to a FoS?
Indirect coaching? This post feels more town than scum, though, but that may only be because he is talking to me and not to Keeper.
well actually i was just paying attention while catching up with the previous posts. and i agree with Cantripmancer that OCD is scummy, so i don't think that it is random at all.
Confirmation that his vote on Gamerz was real. It's really quite odd that the whole joke was taken so seriously, but that isn't a scumtell in and of itself, IMO. It's more of a n00b-tell.
KoZ: Hmmm. Saying that the vote on gamerz throws me off. I obviously don't have the earlier point anymore. I will say that the vote is bad though. You can call it a matter of opinion or whatever but being meticilous about points has nothing to do with alignment.
This is a pretty neutral post, but could be interpreted as more coaching.
Interestingly enough, this sentence is what I consider the most likely reason for Skander to be scum.
For one, Skander's reaction is that of disgust/tiredness rather than an "Aha!" of a townie catching scum. He has abandoned his neutral tone of voice in favor of one filled with disdain. To me, this feels like a scumbuddy giving up and preparing to bus.
The post Skander quoted was Keeper's vote against me based on faulty logic, which Skander realized was probably enough to get Keeper lynched.
Lastly, he has stopped giving advice, which is a complete reversal from his previous posts consisted of what looked like coaching.
AI: Perhaps I was a tad hasty but you know where this is going. We already have mystic's feelings about KoZ ( he said the vote on Gamerz for OCD felt scummy) and I doubt KoZ's recent behaviour will do much to change that. You have to assume that the remaining 5 players will ALL not want to lynch KoZ (not happening) in order to call my move anti-town. I do agree however that more talk is good, I just think you're being overly cautious.
Skander tries to rationalize the rapid claim by stating that I am overly cautious when he is ignoring the opinions of all the other players in the game. Scum-Skander would want to bus doomed Keeper as well as rush into night, and kill two birds with one scummy stone.
in other news, unvote. I need more time to think about which direction i'm going to take and, as what someone else had said, listen to what my gut is saying; which is to not be hasty and to think more.
Keeper seems confused as to what he should do now that he's being bussed by a scumbuddy. Since this is his first game, he might not realize that it's a legitimate scum strategy.
This is likely just a stall for time, regardless of Skander's identity, to postpone the lynch. (Which I tend to agree with, since a lot of people are still unaware of the current state of affairs in this game.)
OK? Playing the "n00b card" does not usually work, and will often bite you in the ass.
How so?
Quote from AsianInvasion »
Do you still think "being OCD" is a scum-tell?
Actually, not anymore. Because now it is quite clear to me that when Cantripmancer accused Gamerz of being OCD and thus showing that he is scum, it was because it was only during the random voting stage.
Quote from AsianInvasion »
Do you still think long posts are a scum-tell? If so, why are they a stronger scum-tell than "being OCD?"
Yes and no. Mainly because there is a part of me saying that this is a scumtell since one would want to make sure that the flow of the discussions remains stable and in control. On the other hand, it may not be a scumtell because one would simply want to remain informed of what happens in the game.
Quote from AsianInvasion »
Why did Gamerz's "OCD" and my long posts justify votes?
Gamerz's OCD does not justify my vote anymore since it is already clear to me that the accusation was made during random stage. Your long posts at that time that I voted for you seemed to be more on the scumtell side.
Okay, now that I have answered your questions, what lead you to think that Skander and I are scumbuddies?
On another note, the one thing he did that made me curious was when he suddenly jumped on the wagon and showed strong assurance that it was "well deserved", necessary and justified.
Newb town is town. Vote: KeeperofZion
That's claim time.
Why is Freshman4Ever a newb town in your eyes compared to Keeper is not?
Keeper is playing scummy, but could be newb town; And Freshman is being neutral in every post, his only commital post is jumping on the keeper wagon:
Thats also scummy play, i want to know why one is 'newb town' and the other isn't?
Other opinions for the time being:
Skander doesn't seem scummy at all...Idk how AI read the quotes, but to me it didn't sound like coaching it sounded more stern...am i making sense? Like in my head it was like a Cop or figure of authority telling a kid what to do, not like elder brother helping his little one.
Gamerz is town.
You don't explain your reasoning again:
why were the long posts scummy?
Quote from Keeperofzion »
Yes and no. Mainly because there is a part of me saying that this is a scumtell since one would want to make sure that the flow of the discussions remains stable and in control. On the other hand, it may not be a scumtell because one would simply want to remain informed of what happens in the game.
This. ^^
The basis of your attack on me is the fact that you say that i make things off-hand and my indecisions and unwillingness to offend anyone. And I don't see how they are scumtells. Do these things really matter?
I was not throwing things off-hand. Rather, i was simply letting others know of any other opinions or thoughts i may have.
And your accused unwillingness to offend anyone is simply an assurance on my part to think things over before I attack someone so that my actions would be reasonable and justified.
Another point you have in your accusation is the fact that I still didn't answer why long posts seemed scummy to me, which I did answer after it was asked.
Since no one posted yesterday, I'll go ahead and analyze the Skander-Keeper interactions for possible scumbuddying. Warning: There is more WIFOM in this post than I'd care for, but nothing here is an absolute statement. Consider it thinking out loud.
Good disclaimer since most of the analysis is reaching.
[spoiler=Relevant Posts]
This is a perfectly neutral question where one would expect some kind of accusatory, or at the very least, confused tone of voice. It also feels like Skander is coaching Keeper. ("Don't do that, Keeper!")[/quote]
This is not all that an important of a question. There is nothing that I am accusing Keeper of, yet anyway. The question is just making sure that my assumptions are correct. If Keeper answers that it was random voting, then that's it and the questions are dropped. But Keeper didn't answer that.
He repeats the question, again in a neutral tone of voice, not at all frustrated or suspicious that Keeper did not answer the first time.
See above.
Keeper's non-explanation, delivered in an offhand kind of way, as if his "suspicions" weren't very strong.
Yet another neutral question that still feels like coaching. ("Don't do that either!")
Again, a lead-in to possible further questioning or possible dropping the questioning.
Indirect coaching? This post feels more town than scum, though, but that may only be because he is talking to me and not to Keeper.
How could this be coaching?
Confirmation that his vote on Gamerz was real. It's really quite odd that the whole joke was taken so seriously, but that isn't a scumtell in and of itself, IMO. It's more of a n00b-tell.
This is a pretty neutral post, but could be interpreted as more coaching.
Only if you're looking to do that. Seriously, what am I coaching him to do there?
Interestingly enough, this sentence is what I consider the most likely reason for Skander to be scum.
For one, Skander's reaction is that of disgust/tiredness rather than an "Aha!" of a townie catching scum. He has abandoned his neutral tone of voice in favor of one filled with disdain. To me, this feels like a scumbuddy giving up and preparing to bus.
The post Skander quoted was Keeper's vote against me based on faulty logic, which Skander realized was probably enough to get Keeper lynched.
Lastly, he has stopped giving advice, which is a complete reversal from his previous posts consisted of what looked like coaching.
Ugh, seemed the easiest way to sommunicate my feelings about the post. I never stopped giving advice since I never started.
Skander appears ready to get Keeper speed-lynched, and in the process make himself out to be the helpful townie.
I already explained this.
Basically you started with the premise that me and KoZ are scumbuddies and then looked in every post to support this strategy. That is bad analysing behaviour.
Actually, not anymore. Because now it is quite clear to me that when Cantripmancer accused Gamerz of being OCD and thus showing that he is scum, it was because it was only during the random voting stage.
But when you followed Cantripmancer's lead, you either straight out barned him without understanding his point (in which case it makes sense why you dropped it when you realized he wasn't serious, but that makes things really bad for you) or you agreed with what you thought was his reasoning, in which case you should still think that reasoning makes sense even though you realized that wasn't Cantrip's point.
Yes and no. Mainly because there is a part of me saying that this is a scumtell since one would want to make sure that the flow of the discussions remains stable and in control. On the other hand, it may not be a scumtell because one would simply want to remain informed of what happens in the game.
This reasoning still makes no sense. You admit that you can see both towniness and scumminess in the long posts which should make them a null-tell but instead you decided that they mean AI is scum.
Also you didn't answer AI's question as to if it's scummier than you thought OCD was.
Gamerz's OCD does not justify my vote anymore since it is already clear to me that the accusation was made during random stage. Your long posts at that time that I voted for you seemed to be more on the scumtell side.
See above.
On another note, the one thing he did that made me curious was when he suddenly jumped on the wagon and showed strong assurance that it was "well deserved", necessary and justified.
Curious is a little neutral. Are you trying to smear me without calling me scummy? Either way, what was curious about it?
AI: Perhaps I was a tad hasty but you know where this is going. We already have mystic's feelings about KoZ ( he said the vote on Gamerz for OCD felt scummy) and I doubt KoZ's recent behaviour will do much to change that. You have to assume that the remaining 5 players will ALL not want to lynch KoZ (not happening) in order to call my move anti-town. I do agree however that more talk is good, I just think you're being overly cautious.
If I were to follow Cyan's lead, I'd say that KoZ's wagon was way too fast for KoZ to be scum. However, I don't think that scummy activity can be easily dismissed. But KoZ does seem to be new at this, and when I started, I shared his distrust of authority (still do), so I can understand that newb position. Unfortunately, allowing the noob card to dismiss elements leads to newb scum getting away with things. I still feel that KoZ's actions have been scummy enough to lynch him, but I'm not sure that him claiming will do much good, based on his newness. In other words: need more input.
Yes and no. Mainly because there is a part of me saying that this is a scumtell since one would want to make sure that the flow of the discussions remains stable and in control. On the other hand, it may not be a scumtell because one would simply want to remain informed of what happens in the game.
In general, the more information a person puts out there, the harder it is for that person to hide later. So a person posting a lot (as long as there's content) is likely either town or really confident scum. I don't read AI as confident scum, so I think I'm leaning town on AI.
Quote from KoZ »
On another note, the one thing he did that made me curious was when he suddenly jumped on the wagon and showed strong assurance that it was "well deserved", necessary and justified.
This is something that you're going to have to get used to or face the consequences (which are usually "getting lynched"). A lot of the more experienced players tend to make statements, often without significant "evidence", and allow the game to play out from there. If you call them on it or ask them why, you get fingered as acting suspicious or fishing. My current strategy is to try very hard to investigate a statement made by a more experienced player to determine where that player's coming from before calling foul (or even agreeing with it).
I think he's on L-2 because he was at L-2, then AI unvoted, then Toastboy voted him. But don't quote me on that without checking yourself. We don't need a mislynch by mistake.
Quote from Mystic »
Skander doesn't seem scummy at all...Idk how AI read the quotes, but to me it didn't sound like coaching it sounded more stern...am i making sense? Like in my head it was like a Cop or figure of authority telling a kid what to do, not like elder brother helping his little one.
I concur that Skander doesn't seem scummy, but neither do I share Skander's belief that AI started with the conclusion and reached to find evidence to back that conclusion up. I can see AI's pov several times in his breakdown...I just don't think it's as scummy as AI does. Especially in a basic game where experienced players may feel like taking on an educator's role.
The basis of your attack on me is the fact that you say that i make things off-hand and my indecisions and unwillingness to offend anyone. And I don't see how they are scumtells. Do these things really matter?
Everything matters. They're scumtells because scum, especially new scum, have to search for reasons to paint townies as scummy. Good scum find tiny discrepancies that they can build upon, counting on emotion and rebuttal to cause the target to make bigger mistakes, eventually ending in a mislynch. But newb scum often latch onto things that seem scummy if you haven't played a lot, but the majority of players recognize those things as not scummy. Your OCD-OCD and dislike of walls'o'text are two such elements. We all regret the lack of being able to go back and edit our typos and (especially) our dumb posts, and as the game progresses, walls'o'text become the norm as people start analyzing and PBPAing. I can see your pov on them, but all in all, they're not scummy pieces.
Quote from KoZ »
I was not throwing things off-hand. Rather, i was simply letting others know of any other opinions or thoughts i may have.
Simply putting your thoughts out there can be dangerous, especially if you accompany them with FoSes or votes. It's best to back your thoughts up with reasons, hopefully good ones.
Quote from KoZ »
And your accused unwillingness to offend anyone is simply an assurance on my part to think things over before I attack someone so that my actions would be reasonable and justified.
If that's the case, why would you so easily vote Gamerz over OCD or AI over walls'o'text? Your vote is a powerful tool; using it usually means that you believe in a person's guilt (random stage notwithstanding).
However, that read was just what I got from one post, so Freshman, could you please give a list of 3 peple who are scummiest to you?
I would love to.
If I had to guess right now, I would guess KoZ, Skander, and SP. KoZ for most of the reasons already stated. Skander pretty much solely on what AI said. A lot of his viewpoints make sense to me and I could see that being true. SP only because after his debacle with AI, he pretty much went silent. Leaving me to believe he wants to try and lay low.
KoZ is the only one I'd be ok voting for at this point, however. We still haven't heard enough from everybody else (Avatar of Lag, bman, gigas, cantrip, and mystic) imo to make a confirmed case against anybody else.
All purely speculation.
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Still stands.
So then the gamerz vote is serious?
And thus do empires and settlements fall
Elaborate.
(Remember that time when kpaca said, "Let's not be silly, boys and girls. Toastboy is definitely town." and he eventually looked very scummy-despite being town? This is kind of like that, only kpaca tends to exaggerate by stating that his hunches are 100% teh right.)
I think it has to do with the fact that some of your posts have weird punctuation usage and you sometimes misspell, omit, or merge words together. When you don't EBWOP either, people are just lost.
Cantrip is right, though. You also have some moments of great clarity and can see situations from just the right perspective. However, it's usually the "WTF?" posts that people remember more readily.
So you have a random vote but a serious FoS?
All right...?
I wouldn't look too much into it. L-3 is far from lynching range, and it would take some level of stupidity for all three (that being the likely number) scum to kill me from there.
I'm much more interested in why Silent Prophet thinks I'm scum. If his reasoning is legitimate, I'll focus on someone else, but for now, he's the only player whose posts have been more scummy than neutral.
I'm not worried about a mislynch happening - I don't think it's really possible to happen like that, I was curious as to what motivation someone would have to put you to that number for no reason. And I'm glad I looked into it because his answer led me to a more important question (that you caught onto as well): If he was serious voting you then why did he drop it for a random vote and downgrade it to a FoS?
Darn, I was hoping to have more fun. Not that one can't have some fun in the serious stage. I like to try to lighten the mood...especially when things get heated.
Anywho, onto some notations.
I'm still waiting to hear something from SP. I'm not really suspicious of him or anything at the moment, I'm just curious to hear what he has to say about what's gone on so far. Especially since some of what has happened was triggered by the discourse between him and AI. At least he should be happy that we seem to be finished with the random stage.
Reading back too, I am also beginning to wonder why Toastboy noted Skander's laying of suspicion on SP, but mentioned nothing about AI, who was the first to lay the suspicion. I can see why he'd say Giga's vote is good, though; it came a little later, after the random stage seemed to be over.
As far as AI is concerned...you laid suspicion on SP for saying that he was skipping the random stage mentioning that he was trying to 'confuse' the town. And yet, you did the same thing, making a 'not random' post during, not just the random stage, but the early part of the random stage, before most people had even posted. If anything, that was pretty confusing, cause now I have to wrap my head around this whole mess of "You started it! No you did! Neener neener!" and "Wait, was it actually random or not?" You state that it was not random, yet the wording made it seem like it was said in jest.
And I will go on the record to say that the whole SP/AI thing could be a ploy. Probably not, but, you never really know. Then again, you could probably say that about a lot of things that go on. Sometimes I really don't understand how this game can end up evolving past a long WIFOM circle.
Also...Keeper...the heck? I'm all for random voting, but I think that it probably works if your random 'reason' is original. Otherwise you're just confusing people as to whether your vote is actually random or not.
And, seeing as how the random stage is over:
Unvote
yeah, it is.
well actually i was just paying attention while catching up with the previous posts. and i agree with Cantripmancer that OCD is scummy, so i don't think that it is random at all.
I can see why that would be confusing. I suppose the best way to put it would be to say that while we were still in the random phase, I wanted to do some nonrandom things that people would be able to check back upon later, because relevant things happened that I did not want to let slide. In a way, I was forced to be nonrandom when I really wanted to just be goofy. As for the tone of voice, I talk strangely at times. Get used to it.
I'm glad someone around here is willing to take a risk. Definitely townish play.
As for how to avoid WIFOM, I try to base my conclusions not on what I think people would do in certain situations, but what they have done and what they say they will do, then look at the motivations behind those words.
I can't get into your mind, but I can do almost as well by reading your intentions.
Disagree.
I am very meticulous when it comes to posting, and will almost always EBWOP if I see any kind of error in my posts. This is not at all a scum-tell.
well that's just an opinion. vote stands, though. until of course something changes my mind.
Of course it can change. i voted for Gamerz because of his peculiar attitude the last posts that he made. forst was the OCD thing that I agree with Cantripmancer since i've noticed before that those who are sort of confused as to what they're gonna do next or something like that end up scum. On the other hand, my FoS on AI is because of the weirdness of the long posts he is making. It shows that he wants to be in control and in-the-know of what's happening, thus making it quite suspicious.
Toastboy: Well if you claim the AI thing was an oversight then I guess that's all. I disagree with the gigas1 point but I see where where you're coming from.
Still waiting on SP.
So wait...you voted me because I templated my post poorly and then said that I wished I could edit it to make it look nicer? Because I'm pretty sure that that was what Cantripmancer jokingly was referring to when he voted me for that reason. I'm pretty sure it was just a random vote with a silly reason given. Then again, I can't really say for him.
You, on the other hand, are very adamant about seriously voting me for that reason. Which gives me pause, because, to me, it hints that you are either scum trying to start a bandwagon (although, honestly, I would weep if one got rolling on me because of that particular reason), or just trying to confuse everyone in general, or maybe a townie trying to use a gambit of "Hey, I'll vote someone for a really crappy reason and see how people react". Or perhaps I'm missing something else altogether?
As far as AI goes, I can sort of see why you'd FoS for that. It's hard to tell if what he's doing is because he's scum and wants to be in control and to help direct people towards others who are not scum...or if he's just townie and trying to helpful because...well...he's townie, that's what townies should do. I'm leaning towards townie, because I'm thinking that scum wouldn't try to expose themselves that much and I like the reason he stated for why his initial posts seemed a little confusing. Thanks for clearing that up AI.
What correction of scummy behavior occurred?:eyebrow:
Only because the Izzet cheated in one of the contests.:teach:
AI posted this: in the "random stage." I asked him if it was serious or not, and his reply was this:
To me, the random stage ends when people start posting serious things. The fact that he was making serious posts and still encouraging the continuation of the random phase made me feel as if he was going to use the random phase as a mask for future posts. If people ignore the first serious post in the random phase, then surely they'll ignore any scummy ones he would make as well.
That being said, we have finally broken out of the random phase and have a few leads to follow due to reactions/actions in regards to my/AI's posts. I will post a rundown of who I believe to be the most solid leads after my niece's neurologist appointment.
Unvote
The vote has served it's purpose. It got people talking in a non-random manner.
Official Deschanel Stalker of The Called
First you say the vote was because AI was being serious but still encourarging random. But then you unvote saying that the vote served it's purpose getting people to be serious.
Was it meant as a kick-start to the game or as a real vote against AI?
Till then let me give some of my current viewpoints as i read through the thread:
1) poor random stage we hardly knew you. So Unvote
2) How is OCD scummy?
3) Zion's vote on Gamerz for OCD, just feels scummy all over.
4) 4 votes on AI in the random stage, thats all it was just Random.
5) SP vs AI, so far it seams like they a both townies that are really trying hard to scum hunt each other, while the scum stand off to the side edging it on.
6) IRL mafia is much more random, and fun. Yet the arguements are dumber "OMG you blinked, SCUM!!!"
7) I have a scummy feeling about skander, who is basically playing neutral in the SP vs AI posts, while laying suspiscion on both. Could be a scum fueling the flames.
8) Hope everything is alright with your Niece SP.
9) The Random stage this time was really confusing, we have now multiple posts that are huge (thanks AI + Gamerz :-/), when i do get back into the game on sunday, ill read them in debth, but i also doubt anything viable is contained within them. Reason being is at the moment is hard to seperate random fun from tells, and any 'real' arguement atm will just disolve into WIFOM.
I thought it was obvious I'm suspicious of SP. Where am I laying suspicion on AI?
AsianInvasion: 1 (bman65)
Silent Prophet: 2 (AsianInvasion, Gigas 1)
Gamerz: 1 (Cantripmancer, Keeper of Zion)
I was suspicious of AI for encouragin random and being serious at the same time; all that does is encourage confusion, which is bad for the town.
I ordinarily would have just marked it down as a suspicious post and moved on, but I wanted to see how many people would try use my vote as an excuse to vote with no reasoning. If I believed in FoSes, that is all the stronger my suspicion was, if that.
My vote allowed two things to happen; it showed that I am somewhat suspicious of AI, and it allowed some people to make some small mistakes, in my opinion. We have more to go on now than if I had never voted.
Official Deschanel Stalker of The Called
All right, that clears things up.
I will be out of town for the long weekend, so you can expect to see my next post on Tuesday (hence the unvote).
Just a comment before I go:
FoS: Gigas I've seen two posts from you (admittedly one was in the random phase so I can't really say that is evidence), but both have been a vote + half a line of simplistic reasoning. Some original content or insight would be appreciated.
That seems very vague. I'm not at all liking your rationale for the vote and FoS. Cantripmancer was obviously joking, but opportunistic scum instinctively jump on what they consider wounded prey. Too bad Gamerz didn't crumble under the pressure. Considering information-gathering is about as townish as you could get - the scum already know who the townies are - now we're left with you looking scummy without an adequate explanation as to why you're basing an attack on a flippant joke and why my "weird," "long" posts deserve an FoS.
Unvote
Vote: Keeperofzion
You proceeded to vote only after being pressured into it.
Whatever helps you sleep at night.
It would take some stupid townies for theoretical scum-AI to get away with that. I do trust that there are some competent players in this group?
In all seriousness, that line of reasoning falls apart when you realize that nothing in Mafia falls through the cracks. Even if one person skips over something significant, someone else will invariably mention it. I'll try to not make scummy plays/get mislynched/screw over the town, if that would make you feel better.
Your suspicions are semi-warranted. Though the beginning of this game probably threw a few people off guard, I don't think people will be as confused from here on out, now that our respective gambits have played their course, revealing our true target.
I'm pretty sure you're not scum.
keeper is the one who I'll be focusing on for the foreseeable future.
The thing is...I'm not sure if that's entirely true. I'm pretty sure there are some things that can fall through the cracks. Seeing as this is my first time playing, I'm entirely sure of any good examples, but my intuition leads me to believe that people will make mistakes in the game and miss things sometimes. Especially seeing as this is a basic game and there are some 'newbs' who wouldn't spot things that others might.
That's really been my biggest fear entering this game...that I'm going to miss 'tells' or, more importantly, misread tells in the game. Granted, like you said, that's what the more experienced players are there for, but then again, those same experienced people could also be scum, and know what not to do, or how to hide things.
Quite frankly, I just don't trust anyone, so please don't mind if there's advice that you veterans spew out that I don't necessarily agree with. It's not that I don't think you know what you're talking about...it's that I just don't necessarily trust you.
Then again, I'm one of those people who can go onto long diatribes, so I might be slightly biased in my opinion on that subject. I just like to go into detail about what I mean to clear up any misunderstandings that people might have about what I have to say. So, if you're not sure what I mean by something, then just ask; I'll gladly try to explain (assuming that you have no problem with what could be a long response ).
I'd like to hear from Freshman about what he thinks on what's been written lately. Looking back, he's been the only person who hasn't posted in over 24 hours...other than those who have given us a reason for being away, that is.
It would also be very odd if every mafioso in this game is an experienced Mafia player, though also not impossible.
I think the conflict between AI and SP has pretty much gotten over itself. Suspicion about the "scumbuddies" from earlier is pretty much gone.
Keeper is the one I have my eyes on now. Some awkward posts that don't make too much sense.
Again with the long posts which seem pretty suspicious for me. Oh and OMGUS. unvote, Vote: AsianInvasion
My eyes as of now are on AI but some others are still on the peripheral.
Yeah, sorry about that. I know I should have posted this earlier, but I'm on a trip. The simplistic reasoning would be because I am apparently not too good at this game.
Unvote
Vote KeeperofZion
Because, as far as I know, OMGUS votes don't usually happen outside the random phase because they don't really seem to help the town. And his other reason of voting because of long posts again doesn't make sense.
What others are still in the peripheral?
This feels...almost contrived. Believable, but a little constructed, maybe.
Um, what? How is he taking a risk? He "goes on record" and then leaves himself not just one, but TWO outs.
Agreed.
I'm not sure I believe this "I saw an opportunity for a ploy and took it; it might not have caught scum, but at least people are talking." Of course your vote highlighted suspicion of AI...that's what a vote does. What mistakes do you feel people have made?
Don't worry about it too much; go with your gut, especially this first game, and then let the outcomes start to shape your play in the future.
Quite frankly, I just don't trust anyone, so please don't mind if there's advice that you veterans spew out that I don't necessarily agree with. It's not that I don't think you know what you're talking about...it's that I just don't necessarily trust you.I find this a very healthy attitude. But don't close yourself off completely. I have a longstanding (4 games-worth) attitude of being distrustful of the "vets".
Oh, scuuuuuumy. "You! Over there! You're lamenting your typos! Scum!!! ... Oh, wait. You! You're posting a lot! Scummmm!!!"
Unvote. Vote: Keeperofzion
Long, contentless posts would be un-townish. Long posts with relevant content are townish, especially when they are thorough and coherent.
If by "OMGUS," you were referring to your own vote, that would be accurate. My reasons for voting you are apparent and logical, which are not trademarks of an OMGUS vote. Your reasons...not so much.
What Gigas said. Don't sow the seeds of mistrust when it's almost time to reap.
I called SP out for what looked like a scummy move. I didn't think it was a very scummy move, but it was all I had to work with at the time. I also wanted to see if he would flip out under pressure, which he didn't, but he did react more strongly than I expected.
I didn't want to end the random phase then, since it's selfish to prevent others from having the fun of dicking around at the start of a new thread.
I'm not sure how I can be more clear on that.
I called him out, and he didn't back down. His "outs" feel more like a new townie trying to explain his gut feelings in a way that makes sense to other players. It's the posting style more than the face-value content that makes me lean toward town in his case.
FoS Cantripmancer for his eagerness to get on the keeper bandwagon.
And I'd have to agree with you, actually. I don't think it was that much of a risk at all. My suspicion about any SP/AI ploy was (and still is) minimal, but as I recently stated, I don't necessarily trust anyone, and I wanted to go 'on the record' to state that a ploy could be true. Not really a risk at all. Heck, you could theoretically say that saying anything at all is 'risky', but that doesn't really stop anyone from posting.
There is one piece of advice I think I'll be taking. I think I'm worrying too much about making the wrong choices this game in deciding who is scum, when I should just go with my gut...and if I'm wrong, then I'll learn from the choices I made and use what I've learned to help make better choices next time.
On that note, I've been wondering about Keeper. The reasons he's had for voting for or being suspicious of people have been really lame and, as others have stated, seemed pretty scummy. My gut says that he seems so obviously scummy. But I keep second-guessing myself on whether to vote for him or not, because...well...it almost seems too obvious.
I keep wondering if he's really scum, or if there's some other reason for him doing what he's been doing. Perhaps a gambit to see what others say about him and if they say anything 'scummy' in response to what he's stated. But even taking that into account, I'd vote for him anyways because I'm not really worried about falling into a trap.
Then there's the thought that maybe he's just a newb townie (is this your first game Keeper?) who doesn't know what he's doing. But it would seem more likely that, if this is his first game, what he's doing seems more like newb scum who's looking for excuses to vote for people. Especially with the excuses he's using. Voting me for wanting my posts to seem more clean and clear, and AI for his long posts...both of those things are things I would want the town to be doing...making things clear so there's less confusion (making things confusing seems like it would make it easier for scum to paint townies in a bad light) and long posts are good for getting our opinions out, which is what we need in order to see what people think, making it easier to see people's motivations and reasons for doing things, and gives more opportunity for the scum to mess up and say something wrong.
In conclusion, I think I'm gonna go with my gut and
Vote Keeperofzion
Seriously? Oh well. I guess i was mistaken then.
Yes, this would technically be my first. And actually, you may be a bit right about me being a newb as well. About AI, I just felt suspicious since posting really long shows he wants to remain in control of what's happening here. And that shows only two things; a townie who really wants to take the lead, or scum who wants to make sure that everything is in control in their favor.
Ugh.
Sooo. You anaylyze the situation and two options present themselves: AI as scum or AI as town. And therefore you vote AI...
The wagon seems a little fast but well deserved.
Vote Keeper of Zion
That's L-2. Claim time.
In other news, I'm fairly certain Gamerz is town. What number game is this for you Gamerz?
I have to agree, the logic here doesn't make any sense.
FoS Skander for forcing a claim before half of the players in this game even had a chance to comment on the wagon.
While keeper's play is scummy, I think you're going way too fast. I don't think townies should try to get other townies to claim purely for informational purposes, since this gives the scum more information as to who might have a power role. Your play right now is distinctly anti-town, despite how good your intentions may be.
Unvote
FoS keeperofzion
...not because he's less scummy than before, but because I want other people to give their input before he claims.
Gamerz is obvtown. I believe this is his first game of Mafia.
Forgive me for asking but...why is L-2 automatically proclaimed as 'claim time'? From reading other games, I can see this seems to almost be a given, as if it's tradition or something, but I'm uncertain as to how it came about to be that way.
This is my first game. I did a mostly full read-through of the last few basic games, as well as reading some of the articles that are in the stickies in this forum though. Mostly ones about strategies and ways of being able to differentiate between a scum and townie. I'll probably end up forming my own strategies and such, but they gave me a good starting point on forming them.
L-2 is taken to be a point where there is enough interest in the lynch that it will probably happen shortly. L-3 is far away from a lynch (especially in a mini) and L-1 is just overkill. Waiting until L-1 is also considered a little risky (as someone may hammer at that point with an excuse that they didn't notice the vote count).
Some people do take the L-2 as very significant though which is just silly. I've seen people heading toward a lynch say "OK I'll claim for you guys but first push me to L-2", which is pretty pointless since it really isn't the number that makes the difference but rather the general interest in seeing the lynch happen.
Mmm, that makes sense. I think it was just the way you worded it that made it sound like "Ok, he's at L-2, claim or else".
As far as keeper being at L-2 and claiming and such, I'm thinking that AI has a good point in that we should wait for others to weigh in on the situation. Not just for the reason of hearing if other people have thoughts on whether to proceed to an actual lynch or not, but so that, if we do go to a lynch, that we might have some more to go on. If we lynch really quickly, we have more of a chance of going into day 2 without much of a clue as to which direction to head next.
As of now, I just want to make sure that I was wrong in thinking that Cantripmancer was serious. As I said before, this is technically my first game. I am even hardly familiar with what Random voting stage was before. But eventually it cleared itself up and that's why i don't vote because of those reasons anymore.
Wait, I'm still confused. I get the L-2 part, but what does it mean if someone's claiming?
in other news, unvote. I need more time to think about which direction i'm going to take and, as what someone else had said, listen to what my gut is saying; which is to not be hasty and to think more.
Well, that was the general gist of it. If he were still at L-2 and did not claim now, it would be considered extremely scummy, and he would have to do something drastic in order to not get autolynched.
You are 100% correct. Rushing into night only helps the scum (since day is the only period during which townies can communicate) which is another reason Skander's play is particularly troubling.
This is about the time to consider whether Skander and keeper may be scumbuddies and if Skander is "bussing" keeper to make himself appear more like a townie.
OK? Playing the "n00b card" does not usually work, and will often bite you in the ass.
You basically tell us who you are.
Actually, what you need is to try to explain your actions in a satisfactory manner.
Namely:
Do you still think "being OCD" is a scum-tell?
Do you still think long posts are a scum-tell? If so, why are they a stronger scum-tell than "being OCD?"
Why did Gamerz's "OCD" and my long posts justify votes?
We're also waiting on several others to give their opinions. Let's try not to force Keeper to claim until everyone has a chance to be appraised, mmmk?
This is a perfectly neutral question where one would expect some kind of accusatory, or at the very least, confused tone of voice. It also feels like Skander is coaching Keeper. ("Don't do that, Keeper!")
He repeats the question, again in a neutral tone of voice, not at all frustrated or suspicious that Keeper did not answer the first time.
Keeper's non-explanation, delivered in an offhand kind of way, as if his "suspicions" weren't very strong.
Yet another neutral question that still feels like coaching. ("Don't do that either!")
Indirect coaching? This post feels more town than scum, though, but that may only be because he is talking to me and not to Keeper.
Confirmation that his vote on Gamerz was real. It's really quite odd that the whole joke was taken so seriously, but that isn't a scumtell in and of itself, IMO. It's more of a n00b-tell.
This is a pretty neutral post, but could be interpreted as more coaching.
Interestingly enough, this sentence is what I consider the most likely reason for Skander to be scum.
For one, Skander's reaction is that of disgust/tiredness rather than an "Aha!" of a townie catching scum. He has abandoned his neutral tone of voice in favor of one filled with disdain. To me, this feels like a scumbuddy giving up and preparing to bus.
The post Skander quoted was Keeper's vote against me based on faulty logic, which Skander realized was probably enough to get Keeper lynched.
Lastly, he has stopped giving advice, which is a complete reversal from his previous posts consisted of what looked like coaching.
Skander appears ready to get Keeper speed-lynched, and in the process make himself out to be the helpful townie.
Skander tries to rationalize the rapid claim by stating that I am overly cautious when he is ignoring the opinions of all the other players in the game. Scum-Skander would want to bus doomed Keeper as well as rush into night, and kill two birds with one scummy stone.
Keeper seems confused as to what he should do now that he's being bussed by a scumbuddy. Since this is his first game, he might not realize that it's a legitimate scum strategy.
This is likely just a stall for time, regardless of Skander's identity, to postpone the lynch. (Which I tend to agree with, since a lot of people are still unaware of the current state of affairs in this game.)
How so?
Actually, not anymore. Because now it is quite clear to me that when Cantripmancer accused Gamerz of being OCD and thus showing that he is scum, it was because it was only during the random voting stage.
Yes and no. Mainly because there is a part of me saying that this is a scumtell since one would want to make sure that the flow of the discussions remains stable and in control. On the other hand, it may not be a scumtell because one would simply want to remain informed of what happens in the game.
Gamerz's OCD does not justify my vote anymore since it is already clear to me that the accusation was made during random stage. Your long posts at that time that I voted for you seemed to be more on the scumtell side.
Okay, now that I have answered your questions, what lead you to think that Skander and I are scumbuddies?
On another note, the one thing he did that made me curious was when he suddenly jumped on the wagon and showed strong assurance that it was "well deserved", necessary and justified.
Why is Freshman4Ever a newb town in your eyes compared to Keeper is not?
Keeper is playing scummy, but could be newb town; And Freshman is being neutral in every post, his only commital post is jumping on the keeper wagon:
Thats also scummy play, i want to know why one is 'newb town' and the other isn't?
Other opinions for the time being:
Skander doesn't seem scummy at all...Idk how AI read the quotes, but to me it didn't sound like coaching it sounded more stern...am i making sense? Like in my head it was like a Cop or figure of authority telling a kid what to do, not like elder brother helping his little one.
Gamerz is town.
This. ^^
The basis of your attack on me is the fact that you say that i make things off-hand and my indecisions and unwillingness to offend anyone. And I don't see how they are scumtells. Do these things really matter?
I was not throwing things off-hand. Rather, i was simply letting others know of any other opinions or thoughts i may have.
And your accused unwillingness to offend anyone is simply an assurance on my part to think things over before I attack someone so that my actions would be reasonable and justified.
Another point you have in your accusation is the fact that I still didn't answer why long posts seemed scummy to me, which I did answer after it was asked.
Good disclaimer since most of the analysis is reaching.
[spoiler=Relevant Posts]
This is a perfectly neutral question where one would expect some kind of accusatory, or at the very least, confused tone of voice. It also feels like Skander is coaching Keeper. ("Don't do that, Keeper!")[/quote]
This is not all that an important of a question. There is nothing that I am accusing Keeper of, yet anyway. The question is just making sure that my assumptions are correct. If Keeper answers that it was random voting, then that's it and the questions are dropped. But Keeper didn't answer that.
See above.
Again, a lead-in to possible further questioning or possible dropping the questioning.
How could this be coaching?
Only if you're looking to do that. Seriously, what am I coaching him to do there?
Ugh, seemed the easiest way to sommunicate my feelings about the post. I never stopped giving advice since I never started.
I already explained this.
Basically you started with the premise that me and KoZ are scumbuddies and then looked in every post to support this strategy. That is bad analysing behaviour.
But when you followed Cantripmancer's lead, you either straight out barned him without understanding his point (in which case it makes sense why you dropped it when you realized he wasn't serious, but that makes things really bad for you) or you agreed with what you thought was his reasoning, in which case you should still think that reasoning makes sense even though you realized that wasn't Cantrip's point.
This reasoning still makes no sense. You admit that you can see both towniness and scumminess in the long posts which should make them a null-tell but instead you decided that they mean AI is scum.
Also you didn't answer AI's question as to if it's scummier than you thought OCD was.
See above.
Curious is a little neutral. Are you trying to smear me without calling me scummy? Either way, what was curious about it?
In general, the more information a person puts out there, the harder it is for that person to hide later. So a person posting a lot (as long as there's content) is likely either town or really confident scum. I don't read AI as confident scum, so I think I'm leaning town on AI.
This is something that you're going to have to get used to or face the consequences (which are usually "getting lynched"). A lot of the more experienced players tend to make statements, often without significant "evidence", and allow the game to play out from there. If you call them on it or ask them why, you get fingered as acting suspicious or fishing. My current strategy is to try very hard to investigate a statement made by a more experienced player to determine where that player's coming from before calling foul (or even agreeing with it).
I think he's on L-2 because he was at L-2, then AI unvoted, then Toastboy voted him. But don't quote me on that without checking yourself. We don't need a mislynch by mistake.
I concur that Skander doesn't seem scummy, but neither do I share Skander's belief that AI started with the conclusion and reached to find evidence to back that conclusion up. I can see AI's pov several times in his breakdown...I just don't think it's as scummy as AI does. Especially in a basic game where experienced players may feel like taking on an educator's role.
Everything matters. They're scumtells because scum, especially new scum, have to search for reasons to paint townies as scummy. Good scum find tiny discrepancies that they can build upon, counting on emotion and rebuttal to cause the target to make bigger mistakes, eventually ending in a mislynch. But newb scum often latch onto things that seem scummy if you haven't played a lot, but the majority of players recognize those things as not scummy. Your OCD-OCD and dislike of walls'o'text are two such elements. We all regret the lack of being able to go back and edit our typos and (especially) our dumb posts, and as the game progresses, walls'o'text become the norm as people start analyzing and PBPAing. I can see your pov on them, but all in all, they're not scummy pieces.
Simply putting your thoughts out there can be dangerous, especially if you accompany them with FoSes or votes. It's best to back your thoughts up with reasons, hopefully good ones.
If that's the case, why would you so easily vote Gamerz over OCD or AI over walls'o'text? Your vote is a powerful tool; using it usually means that you believe in a person's guilt (random stage notwithstanding).
I would love to.
If I had to guess right now, I would guess KoZ, Skander, and SP. KoZ for most of the reasons already stated. Skander pretty much solely on what AI said. A lot of his viewpoints make sense to me and I could see that being true. SP only because after his debacle with AI, he pretty much went silent. Leaving me to believe he wants to try and lay low.
KoZ is the only one I'd be ok voting for at this point, however. We still haven't heard enough from everybody else (Avatar of Lag, bman, gigas, cantrip, and mystic) imo to make a confirmed case against anybody else.
All purely speculation.