This assertion seems reasonable, though it completely ignores the possibility of him being neutral (which I indeed suggested yesterday toward the end). His behavior does not feel like "useless town" to me. It doesn't feel town at all. I am quite confident that he is not on our side.
You're attacking a player based on the theory he's an anti-town neutral? Without even any evidence of such a player in this game yet?
That's just a poor way to hunt scum.
(Also if an SK or CL was a sidekick, usually the flavor of their role would indicate why a sidekick was doing this....i doubt they'd have the impression that the whole group is sidekicks).
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
You're attacking a player based on the theory he's an anti-town neutral? Without even any evidence of such a player in this game yet?
No, I'm attacking a player based on his villainous actions. The suggestion that he is neutral stems largely from his interactions with Cyan's wagon.
(Also if an SK or CL was a sidekick, usually the flavor of their role would indicate why a sidekick was doing this....i doubt they'd have the impression that the whole group is sidekicks).
Even if it were true that we were all sidekicks, what would that accomplish? What gain would it be for the town to know this? It's useless speculation, and serves only to give the appearance of participation. And trying to appear to be participating while actually not is anti-town behavior.
You are correct that I'm making some suppositions - for instance, that the scum will need to lie instead of telling the truth when making their soft-claim. It is possible that the order of the soft-claim doesn't matter. But the fact remains that if it makes a difference what the claim order is, the scum would certainly rather have more information than less while making their claim, which means in turn that they would rather claim later.
And I am saying the order of the soft claims won't make any difference unless the mafia can deduce anything important from the soft claims, which I am saying it's impossible judging from the nature of it. What you have, as you admitted, are suppositions, which in turn doesn't make your point any more valid than mine.
Because of this, I do think that those who claimed later are more likely to be scum. It isn't a big thing - I'm not recommending that we limit our lynches to the last five on the list or anything - but I'm going to keep it in mind. Cyan was the second-last to claim, but in his case, the fact that his soft-claim overlaps that of CropCircles overrides the mild scumminess of claiming late.
I am saying the claim order cannot be used to determine scumminess or likeliness of lynch. You are saying the claim order could be indicative of something, but no way of utilizing it?
Finally, I don't see how you can argue against my statement that Cyan should have made his soft-claim before anyone else did. I'll concede the point that it would be too much trouble to force a strict order for everyone to make their soft-claim in. But Cyan was regarded by many as being scummy, as indicated by him being the vote leader. As it was, he was able to make his soft-claim after having seen them from almost everyone else, instead of before. If you thought he was scummier than everyone else, I don't know why you don't consider this harmful to the town.
My points support my position that Cyan's claiming order means nil to his case/condemnation/clearance. Therefore, it means I don't agree with your statement. Now, what makes your statement more valid than mine, outside of role info? Because the only way I can see you believing your own statement is correct is that you know for a fact the scums could utilize the soft claims for their own nefarious purposes.
I did give an opinion, but I didn't know how well it would match reality. So I presented it in a way that encouraged others to comment on the topic as well. I'm really not sure what else to say here - presenting opinions and asking questions are usually both townie things. Why are you attacking me for doing both at once?
If you follow the line of our argument, you'll note I was only attacking you (on this point) for "asking questions". And that is a misnomer in itself. I am saying as a townie, you wouldn't feel the need to clarify the validity of your opinion on Cubus' rolename. That is a scum mentality. A town mentality would be to just... state your opinion. Period.
This has gotten rather far afield of my initial point. Let me recap.
On the 12th, you made this post saying that you supported a push against Cyan, but that you thought we should soft-claim before pushing Cyan into doing a claim of any kind. As I've said above, I disagree with that logic - I think that the guy who is currently believed scummy should be made to give information first, instead of being allowed to choose his moment. At least partially as a result of the soft-claim distracting people, the Cyan wagon dissipated, and you never followed up on Cyan (or on Some One, the other person you said you'd support a push on) until after I started his wagon back up, six days later.
Let me recap. I don't agree with your point on soft claim. I would have done the same (the call on soft claim initiation) before the completion of any other wagon and not just Cyan's. Cyan (or Some One) was a player I was only interested in a pressure on, meaning I was far more interested in seeing his reactions.
For this to really be damaging to you, Cyan would have to be a scum-buddy, since otherwise there's no reason for you to try to distract attention from him when you did. But if Cyan turns up scum, you jump up to the head of my list of people to go after next.
Cyan turned up scum. Now's your call to pursue me, as you have been laying the brickwork for that attack over the course of several posts anyway. This reminds me of a post Ande made yesterday, on how you were setting up people to damn/clear based on Cyan's future revealed alignment without really making a stance on him the time you made that post.
Even if it were true that we were all sidekicks, what would that accomplish? What gain would it be for the town to know this? It's useless speculation, and serves only to give the appearance of participation. And trying to appear to be participating while actually not is anti-town behavior.
Errr, im sure that you've played a few games here and are well aware that setup speculation is not an uncommon thing for town players to do. Even when it's useless or wrong. It's certainly not a scum tell.
Moreover, you ignore the point in that you seem to be saying that he DIDNT believe the whole town was sidekicks, but just was guessing that based on the speculation on Cubus' role. Cmon.
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
What made me think he was making a case? It was there. I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Roja didn't have to draw a conclusion from the facts for it to be a case, which seems to be your premise.
Next time you want an answer, restating the question would be cool.
Is it? I just remembered making 4 large posts, addressing multiple people, and then decided to just one day go through said 4 large posts, and taking notes of who was purposefully ignoring me in the hope that I would forget I even addressed them in the first place.
I am not sure really. I have been asking the same question of Loran several times now, and even quoting said question twice, and each time he ignored me. It seemed as if he was afraid of answering me? But then said question looked harmless. Why the fear? He must have missed it... again. I suppose I should give up now, or just take that as a strike against him. Maybe restating a question isn't really effective. Maybe I should just back it up with a vote next time? Must be due to the Bold font effect or something that catches the eyes pretty quick.
Sorry, I digressed there a bit. Yeah, that was the question.
I would like to give the doctor (or roleblocker or whatever) a :thumbsup::trophy::cookie: for successfully protecting the correct person, keep up the good work!
What do you make of the fact that he claimed the same letters as someone else for his falseclaim? Does that not indicate fake claims, or you just think he got lucky with a gambit?
DYH knows I'm not scum. If he thought I was scum, there's no way that he was going to get on the Numegil wagon immediately after I did, unless he thought I was trying to bus a scumbuddy, and he would have made that abundtantly clear.
2. I doubt DYH is on the same team as Cyan. When a scum buddy buses you, you don't outright say "He knows I am town" no matter how casual for agreeing with you.
Wow, talk about a scummy post trying to justify getting onto a wagon when he knows someone will come up town. Especially coming from someone that was nowhere to be seen until my wagon esentially became a foregone conclusion. Give me a break.
A)I never 'flailed'. I made the same arguments all day, and no one listened.
B)I like the part where you say that you think my wagon has on substance, and that my claim is a big point for me, and then mike a minor addendum of 'but he flailed a little bit' and 'conclude' that you're ready to vote me. Get real.
Unvote, Vote Spotofprey
If you guys don't realize that this post is nothing but a scum trying to look good preemptively when he lynches a townie, then, I don't know what to tell you.
3. I doubt SoP is on the same team as Cyan. This late in the stage of your wagon, you don't attack your own scum buddy for not supporting your own lynch. If your scum buddy decided not to bus you, you sure as hell was not going to call attention on him.
3. I doubt SoP is on the same team as Cyan. This late in the stage of your wagon, you don't attack your own scum buddy for not supporting your own lynch. If your scum buddy decided not to bus you, you sure as hell was not going to call attention on him.
Late distancing attempt? I'm not sure I agree with that statement, but I definitely see the possibility.
Anyways, I looked back at Someone. Despite the fact that I disliked his case on Numegil, I don't expect Cyan to respond to the case with "/barn, Vote" if Someone were his buddy. That will be sufficient to stay my vote for now.
The implications of learning Cyan's rolename could also apply to the town status of Tilde, who said yesterday that everyone was a comic book superhero (obviously a false conclusion). Cyan wasn't.
In some way yes...but it's a bit less so here than infinis...infinis' speculation came about naturally, whereas tilde seemed to be looking for ways to attack infinis. In other words, i could see a scum Tilde making up the comic book thing to keep on attacking infinis. Remember that Tilde kept up attacking infinis on this point even after CC said it was invalid.
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Anyhow, my accuracy is suffering greatly. Still suspect TMT and DYH personally, but lets go with Vote SpotofPrey....he was #3 on my list before and Cyan's bit at the end smelled like distancing.
Distancing on what? Cyan didn't even really acknowledge SoP's existence before that post. In order to distance, there must be some sort of interactions beforehand. And if it was distancing, it's pretty much one-sided.
271 also feels wrong like he's making up points against DYH to support his fence sitting, while seemingly trying to stay on DYH's good side.
How does that correspond with your personal belief that DYH is scum? Why would a scumbuddy Some One trying to stay on a sumbuddy DYH's good side within the thread itself?
Hmmm, tough call. Screw it, Unvote, Vote SomeOne. Spotofprey has struck me as scummy, and the distancing by Cyan at the end is fishy as all hell, but i can jump back on him when he posts more.
You are not very confident in your own scumlist, yes? You keep repeating these few names you believed are scums, but you never really do anything about them (making cases, digging up behavioral tells, clarifying intentions, etc.) but instead you follow along other people's scumlist?
Infinis is soooo town. Completely useless town to be sure. But his curiosity about the setup and the theory he conjectured indicates he truly is a sidekick and thought everyone was sidekicks, something that seems improbable if he was mafia (Bad Horse is not a sidekick).
How does that correspond with your personal belief that DYH is scum? Why would a scumbuddy Some One trying to stay on a sumbuddy DYH's good side within the thread itself?
I don't ever make assumptions about player x being scum when i'm pursuing player y. DYH has rang out as scummy to me, yes. But for me to assume that another unknown player was scum would seriously hinder me finding out any tells.
You are not very confident in your own scumlist, yes? You keep repeating these few names you believed are scums, but you never really do anything about them (making cases, digging up behavioral tells, clarifying intentions, etc.) but instead you follow along other people's scumlist?
I've posted my reasons for the TMT vote. No one seemed to agree, but i still think they're valid....but no one else does so i'll move on till more evidence comes available. Same with spotofprey, who in fact has been lurking awfully, but nothing's he's posted as struck me as positive.
Some One though struck me as scummy in my first read through. Post 356 believe it or not was the thing keeping me from voting him at the time or putting him in my scumlist...it strikes me as genuine wondering about what we're missing about the setup as opposed to his non-genuine other posts. Still, i have like 5 or so -s on his posts and only that one +.
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Why do you disagree with the other things people have been saying?
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
It's not "disagreeing", it's voicing my opinion. Something about Infinis just rubbed me the wrong way yesterday and I'm staying with that gut feeling today.
TMT apparently got the same read or something:
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Refreshed from his sleep, TMT joins the morning assembly. A bowl of excessively sugary cereal would be nice, but there's no time for that. There's only time for justice! With super-human strength, TMT bounds to the top of a nearby bookshelf. He stands boldly with his hands on his hips, and prepares to levy his accusations at the next evildoer on the list.
The fiend known as Infinis must go!
He has contributed nothing aside from trying to promote setup speculation (dwelling on Ged's "falseclaims are hard enough" comment) and doing setup speculation himself (theories about rolename themes, hints that he's cooking up a second theory). About the only opinions he's given are a single response to the soft-claim question and a few (imo terrible) responses about Cyan's wagon. He's made a couple of half-hearted jabs at Tilde and Jql, but hasn't done any real scum hunting at all. The only comment he's made toward that end was suggesting that most of the scum were on Cyan's wagon since no one had hammered him.
Infinis has avoided participating aside from some weak speculation, weak jabs at a couple of players, and major waffling regarding Cyan's wagon. His behavior is not heroic, and he must be dealt with. The villain must pay!
TMT fixes Infinis with an intense stare. Gadgets were sufficient for the first day, but now it's time to show these people his real power! Suddenly, a pair of bright red voterrion beams shoot from his eyes, striking the scoundrel square in the chest.
vote Infinis
So I guess I should ask: "Why do you and DYH think that we're wrong?"
I've obviously got a bunch of stuff to address here, but will lead off by saying that I was roleblocked last night. I'm a little unhappy with how that reflects on me when combined with the lack of a kill last night, but there it is.
(which incidentally, RR trying to take credit yesterday for the Cyan wagon coming back is part of my huge reason of suspicion on him - post 574, response to CC).
I also mention it in post 596, in my discussions with Dagger. I'm not saying that I'm the only one who was involved - the groundwork had been laid by others, yourself included. But take a look back at the discussion from that time. A little after the softclaim concluded with Abandon Hope, DYH unvoted from Cyan stating his opinion that he couldn't get Cyan lynched. TMT and ~Tilde~ switched to other targets as well, and the Cyan wagon was officially over, with only andelijah maintaining a vote. That was where things were when I posted my analysis of the Cyan wagon. A direct result of my post was increased focus on Cyan and more people posting opinions of him, and that is what eventually led to his lynch.
I want all of you to think about this logically. Assume that I was Cyan's scumbuddy. Do you really believe that I'd have tried to divert attention away from myself by posting "Hey dudes, you never finished the lynch on this guy"? I will admit that there wasn't much else that I was finding to talk about, but there is no way that I would have tried to generate discussion on Cyan in that circumstance. The potential downside would have just been too high.
And I am saying the order of the soft claims won't make any difference unless the mafia can deduce anything important from the soft claims, which I am saying it's impossible judging from the nature of it. What you have, as you admitted, are suppositions, which in turn doesn't make your point any more valid than mine.
If they're making their claims near the end, they can deduce which of the fakeclaims that they made up are safe! Suppose that we'd had one more player than we actually do - call him Placeholder. Placeholder is scum, and has not been provided a fakeclaim. He can use wikipedia or his own knowledge to fabricate a possible fakeclaim, but if he makes his letter claim near the start, he might find that his letter / gender / source claim overlaps with someone else's. That raises the possibility that he'll end up being counterclaimed if he has to come out with a full fake-claim later on.
On the other hand, suppose that Placeholder claims at the very end, after Abandon Hope. He is then able to look over the provided claims and see that his intended claim - B / Male / Other - has already been taken by two people. He then uses a backup claim of K / Male / Other and relaxes, knowing that nobody is going to counterclaim him.
This isn't rocket science. You thought Cyan was scummy. Once you know you want a claim from someone who's acting scummy, you don't give them more information first - you get them to claim first, before moving on to other people. This line of logic doesn't require me to have special knowledge - it just requires me to think about it.
If you follow the line of our argument, you'll note I was only attacking you (on this point) for "asking questions". And that is a misnomer in itself. I am saying as a townie, you wouldn't feel the need to clarify the validity of your opinion on Cubus' rolename. That is a scum mentality. A town mentality would be to just... state your opinion. Period.
We seem to be just going around in circles on this one. I gave my opinion, and invited others to do so as well. I was curious if others viewed the situation in the same manner that I did.
Try this: what motivation do you think I had for posting the quote from Rorschach that I did in that post? Can you think of a situation where scum would do that? How about townie?
Cyan turned up scum. Now's your call to pursue me, as you have been laying the brickwork for that attack over the course of several posts anyway. This reminds me of a post Ande made yesterday, on how you were setting up people to damn/clear based on Cyan's future revealed alignment without really making a stance on him the time you made that post.
I'm certainly very interested. I was waiting to see which bodies were going to turn up before doing my full reread of you, but now that we're back in day, I should have a position post ready either tomorrow or Monday. I am definitely suspicious, though.
I dislike naked votes. I dislike them even more when they are on me.
Cubus, please provide some explanation for your vote. I understand from your post 688 that you are after me partly because of my opposition to the softclaims. What puts me ahead of the other people on your list? And why, if you're still suspicious of DYH, were you willing to barn him to figure out where to place your vote?
I don't ever make assumptions about player x being scum when i'm pursuing player y. DYH has rang out as scummy to me, yes. But for me to assume that another unknown player was scum would seriously hinder me finding out any tells.
That seems like an awful way to look at things. I've lost games in the past because I focused too much on one player and ignored connections between others.
That seems like an awful way to look at things. I've lost games in the past because I focused too much on one player and ignored connections between others.
Focus on connections between certainties. Not uncertainties. If player x is dead scum, we can look at connections. If player y is alive but scummy, looking at connections to other living players is getting ahead of ourselves and is dangerous.
I've never had this be a problem. Lost games? REALLY? That's an exaggeration, it would seem.
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Focus on connections between certainties. Not uncertainties. If player x is dead scum, we can look at connections. If player y is alive but scummy, looking at connections to other living players is getting ahead of ourselves and is dangerous.
I've never had this be a problem. Lost games? REALLY? That's an exaggeration, it would seem.
Well, games might be an exaggeration. I can definitely recall one game where I got so focused on one player that I thought was scum that I didn't realize that there was no way he could be co-scum with the other people I was suspicious of. If I'd spent a bit more time thinking big picture on that one we might not have mislynched FTL.
Well, games might be an exaggeration. I can definitely recall one game where I got so focused on one player that I thought was scum that I didn't realize that there was no way he could be co-scum with the other people I was suspicious of. If I'd spent a bit more time thinking big picture on that one we might not have mislynched FTL.
really, that's a matter of late game, when a person can't be scum since there's obviously more than one scum left.....but obviously this is not the case here.
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
And since I have some free time, let's discuss something:
Against softclaims:
Cyan
Some One
Jqlgirl
Abandon Hope
Tilde
roja
RobRoy
Infinis
These are the list of players I have noted that initially resisted the idea of soft claims. Some have shifted their mind since then, but I have always believed initial reactions are important indication of a person's mindset. Did I miss or erroneously add anyone?
So a person known for long analytical posts makes this kind of mistake, after stating he had time to read. Also nice cover at the end.
No one corrected Dagger so it was just an innocent mistake...
I believe Infinis was pro softclaims. I'd also maybe make a note of SoP somewhere, if we're discussing softclaim opinions. He supported them going ahead, but didn't actually give an opinion on them, unless I missed it
...
I guess someone did correct Dagger. And now Cubus resurrects this mistake. So either both Dagger and Cubus missed my pro soft claim stance AND ced's correction OR they are trying ever so subtly to start a wagon on a townie. Lucky for me Cubus is giving me "a pass today".
I'm amused that [Shalako], of all people, are talking about terrible reasoning. "Hey, PF's RVS daykill must be serious, therefore I should shoot him to prove that I have a daykill!"
It's not "disagreeing", it's voicing my opinion. Something about Infinis just rubbed me the wrong way yesterday and I'm staying with that gut feeling today.
TMT apparently got the same read or something:
[/b]
So I guess I should ask: "Why do you and DYH think that we're wrong?"
Ah with evidence in hand, no nightkill and Cyan's death, you are voting me because "I rubbed you the wrong way?"
You know what rubbed me the wrong way your continued foolishness when faced with contrary evidence. Wikipedia is not the be all and end all of resources. I could understand a Day 1 jumping off point sure, but to carry into day is weak. loran has made a strong enough case for my innocence, and yet you do not respond to it in any meaningful way. [B]@loran[/B] Thanks for the "He's so useless, he must be town" defense.
[B]@TMT[/B] How did I waffle? I waffled on my own theory! Did I jump on and off a wagon? Did I say Cyan was scum and that I'm going to vote him and not do so? Please show me the waffling.
My scum list:
Dagger
Cubus
Tilde
Roja
TMT feels like mistaken town, possibly scum, but right now I'm on the fence about him
As to my second theory. I believe that we are all heroes from TV, Movies and the Web. Bad horse, indeed. (Nathan Fillion is great in that)
This will make the name claims harder. Elastigirl was a good false claim, but I wonder if anyone else will be as skilled at coming up with more name claims as we go along. The setup is important.
Roja's PM mistake shenangians just feels like hiding in plain sight. Because Captain Marvel and Thunderbolt are the only two characters I know of that are in two different companies.
I'm amused that [Shalako], of all people, are talking about terrible reasoning. "Hey, PF's RVS daykill must be serious, therefore I should shoot him to prove that I have a daykill!"
I also mention it in post 596, in my discussions with Dagger. I'm not saying that I'm the only one who was involved - the groundwork had been laid by others, yourself included. But take a look back at the discussion from that time. A little after the softclaim concluded with Abandon Hope, DYH unvoted from Cyan stating his opinion that he couldn't get Cyan lynched. TMT and ~Tilde~ switched to other targets as well, and the Cyan wagon was officially over, with only andelijah maintaining a vote. That was where things were when I posted my analysis of the Cyan wagon. A direct result of my post was increased focus on Cyan and more people posting opinions of him, and that is what eventually led to his lynch.
I want all of you to think about this logically. Assume that I was Cyan's scumbuddy. Do you really believe that I'd have tried to divert attention away from myself by posting "Hey dudes, you never finished the lynch on this guy"? I will admit that there wasn't much else that I was finding to talk about, but there is no way that I would have tried to generate discussion on Cyan in that circumstance. The potential downside would have just been too high.
My recollection of your analysis post was more "waffle" and less "let's look at Cyan". Having re-read it (#446), I think you're making a valid argument in your defense, although to my credit there was plenty of non-committal verbiage in it. Fact is, you did twice allude to Cyan's sudden drop from the radar and pointed that A) it was odd since he hadn't produced any additional defense, and B) that was disturbing that he was no longer a topic of conversation.
Still rubbing me slightly the wrong way is the lack of a vote to support that notion. For now, I'm going to review for a new suspect.
My recollection of your analysis post was more "waffle" and less "let's look at Cyan". Having re-read it (#446), I think you're making a valid argument in your defense, although to my credit there was plenty of non-committal verbiage in it. Fact is, you did twice allude to Cyan's sudden drop from the radar and pointed that A) it was odd since he hadn't produced any additional defense, and B) that was disturbing that he was no longer a topic of conversation.
Still rubbing me slightly the wrong way is the lack of a vote to support that notion. For now, I'm going to review for a new suspect.
Unvote
Certainly hope you can find someone to place you're vote on.
Infinis challenges our hero, lashing back with a challenge to prove the accusations. But TMT is not intimidated so easily, and quickly strikes back with a counter-attack!
@TMT How did I waffle? I waffled on my own theory! Did I jump on and off a wagon? Did I say Cyan was scum and that I'm going to vote him and not do so? Please show me the waffling.
Perhaps waffling is not the right term, though posting "I don't think meta is a good reason to lynch" followed by "not enough town evidence to spare him" to "still not enough evidence for me to vote him" could reasonably be called waffling. Call it fence-sitting if you prefer, it still looks terrible.
As to my second theory. I believe that we are all heroes from TV, Movies and the Web. Bad horse, indeed. (Nathan Fillion is great in that)
Again with the useless and wrong theories. Cubus's claimed character is sourced in a graphic novel (though a film has been made, yes). And my character is sourced in none of those things. Aside from plain-sight lurking, what exactly are you trying to accomplish with these useless theories?
Again with the useless and wrong theories. Cubus's claimed character is sourced in a graphic novel (though a film has been made, yes). And my character is sourced in none of those things. Aside from plain-sight lurking, what exactly are you trying to accomplish with these useless theories?
For what it's worth, my character also doesn't quite fit into this either.
Any "theory" about what roles could or could not be in the game is gaming the mod and completely useless. If someone comes out with a rolename that seems completely unlikely, we can examine the situation then, based on the circumstances. It's pretty rare for a mod to pick some kind of theme, like "sidekicks," and just arbitrarily make all the roles in the game follow that trend.
Infinis challenges our hero, lashing back with a challenge to prove the accusations. But TMT is not intimidated so easily, and quickly strikes back with a counter-attack!
Perhaps waffling is not the right term, though posting "I don't think meta is a good reason to lynch" followed by "not enough town evidence to spare him" to "still not enough evidence for me to vote him" could reasonably be called waffling. Call it fence-sitting if you prefer, it still looks terrible.
Again with the useless and wrong theories. Cubus's claimed character is sourced in a graphic novel (though a film has been made, yes). And my character is sourced in none of those things. Aside from plain-sight lurking, what exactly are you trying to accomplish with these useless theories?
Comic book based character that was compiled into a graphic novel. What makes Cubus' claim true? I'm not saying he lied, but again it can't be taken as fact.
My theory isn't useless if we discern a theme or motif, then any claims that are off can be telling later in the game.
Fine if you want to slice hairs, comic heros not from comic books. Why would there be so many others if this was not the case? Why just splash a couple of DC and Marvel characters?
If you disagree with the theory so be it, but to accuse me of plain sight lurking when I'm trying to see if we will have leverage against scum in the later game is just being belligerent for a "hero".
I actually didn't bother to read all of day 1 to get everyone's stances, so I just copied Dagger's list. I saw Andelijah's correction, but I missed ced's. Boo hoo.
Laziness I guess I'll buy it. TMT replaces Cubus on my scumlist.
I'm amused that [Shalako], of all people, are talking about terrible reasoning. "Hey, PF's RVS daykill must be serious, therefore I should shoot him to prove that I have a daykill!"
If you disagree with the theory so be it, but to accuse me of plain sight lurking when I'm trying to see if we will have leverage against scum in the later game is just being belligerent for a "hero".
Such theories are just as likely to mislynch town for having a nonconforming role as they are scum. Since you don't know the setup, speculating on it is quite useless.
Laziness I guess I'll buy it. TMT replaces Cubus on my scumlist.
1) Why do you need to have 4 people on your scumlist? Why not simply remove Cubus?
2) Why is Dagger still there? (also known as, "why didn't you read my point?")
Such theories are just as likely to mislynch town for having a nonconforming role as they are scum. Since you don't know the setup, speculating on it is quite useless.
1) Why do you need to have 4 people on your scumlist? Why not simply remove Cubus?
2) Why is Dagger still there? (also known as, "why didn't you read my point?")
1) Why not have four? I was debating TMT's play and accusations against him and his last post struck me as scummy. Cubus said he was being lazy and I accepted it for what it's worth
2) I explained Dagger. He makes huge analytical posts and misreps me. To find the post on my take on softclaims was easy enough for me to do and Dagger is considered the better player than me so logically he has an agenda in adding me to the list of antisoftclaim people
Lastly I thought I had in fact corrected him with the post you mention but I reread it and you are correct I did not. However, it was addressed later by ced so I thought it was fine at that point. Unfortunately that wrong post is now being referenced as the be all end all list. Dagger as town and creator of the list should have reposted it with the correct information since he did ask and cover himself with the last line.
Am I getting to close to one of scumbuddies Ande? You keep hammering on the theory, why not let others decide if my theory is worthwhile? Are you fearful town will catch you later on with a falseclaim?
I'm amused that [Shalako], of all people, are talking about terrible reasoning. "Hey, PF's RVS daykill must be serious, therefore I should shoot him to prove that I have a daykill!"
I'm not a real fan of Abandon Hope. I'm not trying to flame or make a personal attack, but you post like an angry-drunk version of Chamber. It really doesn't help anyone and wastes time when people need to ask for a follow up.
But you did. And I'm not the mature sensible sort of individual who says "I'm just gonna focus on catching scum." I'd be happy to take this personally.
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Classic. Why exactly isn't he the doc? Cause that's all that's stopping me.
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Is it? I just remembered making 4 large posts, addressing multiple people, and then decided to just one day go through said 4 large posts, and taking notes of who was purposefully ignoring me in the hope that I would forget I even addressed them in the first place.
I am not sure really. I have been asking the same question of Loran several times now, and even quoting said question twice, and each time he ignored me. It seemed as if he was afraid of answering me? But then said question looked harmless. Why the fear? He must have missed it... again. I suppose I should give up now, or just take that as a strike against him. Maybe restating a question isn't really effective. Maybe I should just back it up with a vote next time? Must be due to the Bold font effect or something that catches the eyes pretty quick.
Sorry, I digressed there a bit. Yeah, that was the question.
Wow, way to spin out of control there. I'm sorry the whole world isn't solely focused on answering your questions. And if your question to Loran is as irrelevant as the one you asked me, who could blame him? But how would I know, you didn't restate the question. Again.
@Infinis: Oh, absolutely. He's got a secret agenda!
I am not sure really. I have been asking the same question of Loran several times now, and even quoting said question twice, and each time he ignored me. It seemed as if he was afraid of answering me? But then said question looked harmless. Why the fear? He must have missed it... again. I suppose I should give up now, or just take that as a strike against him. Maybe restating a question isn't really effective. Maybe I should just back it up with a vote next time? Must be due to the Bold font effect or something that catches the eyes pretty quick.
Missed this earlier, exactly what question are you...talking about? Mind you i may have missed something, your posts have constantly been large recaps that its easy to miss something, but i do remember responding to you in your last post...so i'm not sure what question you have been repeating...like you claim.
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There's nothing wrong with four, its just that I was surprised by your need to replace Cubus. It makes it seem like you have a quota of suspicion.
I was debating TMT's play and accusations against him
...
and his last post struck me as scummy.
Be more specific on both counts.
2) I explained Dagger. He makes huge analytical posts and misreps me.
You are making a rather big deal out of nothing. Dagger made a mistake. ced corrected him. I don't think Dagger has pushed you on the subject... ever. Where is the problem?
Lastly I thought I had in fact corrected him with the post you mention but I reread it and you are correct I did not. However, it was addressed later by ced so I thought it was fine at that point. Unfortunately that wrong post is now being referenced as the be all end all list.
It's not like you're going to be speedlynched because you were on the list - simply referencing your actual reaction will be sufficient if asked.
Am I getting to close to one of scumbuddies Ande?
Your scum list consists of:
1) The people who voted you, might suspect you, or have looked at you funny at one point in the game.
2) Er, see 1?
So even if I were scum, I would not be worried about you catching any of my buddies.
You keep hammering on the theory, why not let others decide if my theory is worthwhile?
The sample size for your theory yesterday was 1. Today it is 2 (unless you're going to admit to being scum, in which case it could be around 5). Any theory you make today is going to be worthless. It's like a math teacher giving you two points that satisfy a function he has thought up in his head, and then having you try and solve for the function. It is not possible. Ever.
And while there are certainly less than infinite solutions to this setup, there are still a large number and the chances of you guessing the exact theme Ged had in mind, if there even was one, is small.
Comic book based character that was compiled into a graphic novel. What makes Cubus' claim true? I'm not saying he lied, but again it can't be taken as fact.
My theory isn't useless if we discern a theme or motif, then any claims that are off can be telling later in the game.
Fine if you want to slice hairs, comic heros not from comic books. Why would there be so many others if this was not the case? Why just splash a couple of DC and Marvel characters?
If you disagree with the theory so be it, but to accuse me of plain sight lurking when I'm trying to see if we will have leverage against scum in the later game is just being belligerent for a "hero".
Multiple problems here. First, Cubus claiming like he did (early) means that he's almost certainly Rorschach - I don't see him gaining an advantage of any kind otherwise. I'm not going to doubt his claim without a good reason. Secondly, the fact that you're having to split hairs as much as you are to phrase this probably means that we can't use it for anything, lest it turn out that we split a hair the wrong way. We can't use it as a basis for anything unless we can trust it.
Finally, even if it were true - what's the point? How is it possibly useful to us? I don't see this line of speculation being anything that we can use now; I also don't see it being useful at any point down the road. I'm not holding the speculation against you, but you need to move on to other things.
Hmm. Was there any flavor on the roleblock you can discuss? It might give a clue as to the character who did it.
Something else that makes me suspicious. How would knowing the character who provided the block help us? How exactly would you narrow it down? I don't see any way that we could find the blocker based solely on flavour today.
How would knowing the character who provided the block help us? How exactly would you narrow it down? I don't see any way that we could find the blocker based solely on flavour today.
Well, how about this for a hypothetical example. Let's say you were tied up last night with rope. That would indicate a character like "Wonder Woman" might be responsible. If anything the flavor of the roleblock might help identify the character who did the roleblock.
Well, how about this for a hypothetical example. Let's say you were tied up last night with rope. That would indicate a character like "Wonder Woman" might be responsible. If anything the flavor of the roleblock might help identify the character who did the roleblock.
And if the scum is aware of whether his roleblock method will be revealed or not, he might look for an alternate claim that matches his subclaim.
I'd prefer this info not come out.
Speaking of claims, yo DYH! You initially proposed a 2 step claim. Step 2 was a nameclaim today. Why not go forward? I'm someone doubting they'll reveal much on town abilities here and if the scum really did fear these things...
well?
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
And if the scum is aware of whether his roleblock method will be revealed or not, he might look for an alternate claim that matches his subclaim.
Ok, fair enough.
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Step 2 was a nameclaim today. Why not go forward? I'm someone doubting they'll reveal much on town abilities here and if the scum really did fear these things...
Cyan had a falseclaim as scum, it's not unreasonable to think that the other scum used falseclaims on the day 1 softclaim. A nameclaim might point out which townies have what abilities while the scum stay safely "disguised" as it were.
Cyan had a falseclaim as scum, it's not unreasonable to think that the other scum used falseclaims on the day 1 softclaim. A nameclaim might point out which townies have what abilities while the scum stay safely "disguised" as it were.
Errr, You think elastigirl was definitely a mod-given false claim? How can you be so sure?
And in this game, where everyone is a certain type of character, you really think rolenames will be giveaways?
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
You think elastigirl was definitely a mod-given false claim? How can you be so sure?
Nice misrep there. I'm just pointing out that Cyan falseclaimed and that the other scum could have come up with falseclaims as well. I don't recall mentioning any "mod-given false claim" in that post.
EBWODP: As for whether or not rolenames might be giveaways? Look at Cubus' Rorschach claim. I'd be terribly surprised if he turns out to be vanilla anything.
EBWODP: As for whether or not rolenames might be giveaways? Look at Cubus' Rorschach claim. I'd be terribly surprised if he turns out to be vanilla anything.
And yet, he could be (Rorschach has no powers or special gadgets and could easily be vanilla in this sort of company). Or he could be any variety of roles.
This is hardly an example of a giveaway.
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Exactly. Rorschach could be anything: SK, Paranoid Cop, Town Watcher, Vigilante, you name it. But, because of that potential role-capability, probably the last thing I would categorize him as is "vanilla".
Yes, that's gaming the mod somewhat, but the game is still early. With the possibility that scum either came up with, or were given falseclaims, I think waiting an extra day for nameclaiming might be a good idea.
Yes, that's gaming the mod somewhat, but the game is still early. With the possibility that scum either came up with, or were given falseclaims, I think waiting an extra day for nameclaiming might be a good idea.
Only one extra day?
What good do you think this will do?
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
I have a role name that is sort of like Cubus' with respect to the "can be almost anything" deal. Thus, if the rest of the town is like that, I see no harm in nameclaiming, especially if the scum weren't given false-claims that "can be almost anything." Take Elasticgirl, for example, she's definitely a character who has less possibilities for a role than Rorschach.
You're attacking a player based on the theory he's an anti-town neutral? Without even any evidence of such a player in this game yet?
That's just a poor way to hunt scum.
(Also if an SK or CL was a sidekick, usually the flavor of their role would indicate why a sidekick was doing this....i doubt they'd have the impression that the whole group is sidekicks).
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
No, I'm attacking a player based on his villainous actions. The suggestion that he is neutral stems largely from his interactions with Cyan's wagon.
Even if it were true that we were all sidekicks, what would that accomplish? What gain would it be for the town to know this? It's useless speculation, and serves only to give the appearance of participation. And trying to appear to be participating while actually not is anti-town behavior.
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Simpsons Mafia (Newbie) - Vanilla Mafia - Win
The Fiasco Corporation - Town Reporter - Loss
Doomsday Mafia - Mafia Roleblocker - Win
Battle Royale Mafia - Serial Daykiller - Loss
Danger City Mafia - Vanilla Town - Win
And I am saying the order of the soft claims won't make any difference unless the mafia can deduce anything important from the soft claims, which I am saying it's impossible judging from the nature of it. What you have, as you admitted, are suppositions, which in turn doesn't make your point any more valid than mine.
I am saying the claim order cannot be used to determine scumminess or likeliness of lynch. You are saying the claim order could be indicative of something, but no way of utilizing it?
My points support my position that Cyan's claiming order means nil to his case/condemnation/clearance. Therefore, it means I don't agree with your statement. Now, what makes your statement more valid than mine, outside of role info? Because the only way I can see you believing your own statement is correct is that you know for a fact the scums could utilize the soft claims for their own nefarious purposes.
If you follow the line of our argument, you'll note I was only attacking you (on this point) for "asking questions". And that is a misnomer in itself. I am saying as a townie, you wouldn't feel the need to clarify the validity of your opinion on Cubus' rolename. That is a scum mentality. A town mentality would be to just... state your opinion. Period.
Let me recap. I don't agree with your point on soft claim. I would have done the same (the call on soft claim initiation) before the completion of any other wagon and not just Cyan's. Cyan (or Some One) was a player I was only interested in a pressure on, meaning I was far more interested in seeing his reactions.
Cyan turned up scum. Now's your call to pursue me, as you have been laying the brickwork for that attack over the course of several posts anyway. This reminds me of a post Ande made yesterday, on how you were setting up people to damn/clear based on Cyan's future revealed alignment without really making a stance on him the time you made that post.
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Errr, im sure that you've played a few games here and are well aware that setup speculation is not an uncommon thing for town players to do. Even when it's useless or wrong. It's certainly not a scum tell.
Moreover, you ignore the point in that you seem to be saying that he DIDNT believe the whole town was sidekicks, but just was guessing that based on the speculation on Cubus' role. Cmon.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Infinis - 1 (The Mad Tapper)
JqlGirl - 2 (ced295, Some One)
RobRoy - 1 (DYH)
Some One - 2 (CropCircles, loran16)
Rule 2, people. Rule 2.
With 17 alive, it's 9 to lynch.
Might I suggest RobRoy?
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Is it? I just remembered making 4 large posts, addressing multiple people, and then decided to just one day go through said 4 large posts, and taking notes of who was purposefully ignoring me in the hope that I would forget I even addressed them in the first place.
I am not sure really. I have been asking the same question of Loran several times now, and even quoting said question twice, and each time he ignored me. It seemed as if he was afraid of answering me? But then said question looked harmless. Why the fear? He must have missed it... again. I suppose I should give up now, or just take that as a strike against him. Maybe restating a question isn't really effective. Maybe I should just back it up with a vote next time? Must be due to the Bold font effect or something that catches the eyes pretty quick.
Sorry, I digressed there a bit. Yeah, that was the question.
Also, caught up to yesterday's lynch scene.
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Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
In light of what Loran and I have discussed, you really think this is the best place for your vote?
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
After reading this again, it might not be clear. I'm suggesting RobRoy as someone not to give a pass to. That should be obvious from my vote, though.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Oh, no, I'm 100% safe from a lynch, don't worry about that.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Guess I have some rereading to do.
What do you make of the fact that he claimed the same letters as someone else for his falseclaim? Does that not indicate fake claims, or you just think he got lucky with a gambit?
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1. There are little info to be gained. Most of his posts deal with his own defense and meta arguments of his play.
2. I doubt DYH is on the same team as Cyan. When a scum buddy buses you, you don't outright say "He knows I am town" no matter how casual for agreeing with you.
3. I doubt SoP is on the same team as Cyan. This late in the stage of your wagon, you don't attack your own scum buddy for not supporting your own lynch. If your scum buddy decided not to bus you, you sure as hell was not going to call attention on him.
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Late distancing attempt? I'm not sure I agree with that statement, but I definitely see the possibility.
Anyways, I looked back at Someone. Despite the fact that I disliked his case on Numegil, I don't expect Cyan to respond to the case with "/barn, Vote" if Someone were his buddy. That will be sufficient to stay my vote for now.
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In some way yes...but it's a bit less so here than infinis...infinis' speculation came about naturally, whereas tilde seemed to be looking for ways to attack infinis. In other words, i could see a scum Tilde making up the comic book thing to keep on attacking infinis. Remember that Tilde kept up attacking infinis on this point even after CC said it was invalid.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Distancing on what? Cyan didn't even really acknowledge SoP's existence before that post. In order to distance, there must be some sort of interactions beforehand. And if it was distancing, it's pretty much one-sided.
Remind me what is DTF again. -_-...
How does that correspond with your personal belief that DYH is scum? Why would a scumbuddy Some One trying to stay on a sumbuddy DYH's good side within the thread itself?
You are not very confident in your own scumlist, yes? You keep repeating these few names you believed are scums, but you never really do anything about them (making cases, digging up behavioral tells, clarifying intentions, etc.) but instead you follow along other people's scumlist?
Good point here.
Where? And why would you be interested to know this anyway if you see CC as town (or not)?
Making that a null tell?
Good point. I was thinking false claim actually.
Oh?
Yeah, well, it's for my own note.
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* Dagger faints.
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I don't ever make assumptions about player x being scum when i'm pursuing player y. DYH has rang out as scummy to me, yes. But for me to assume that another unknown player was scum would seriously hinder me finding out any tells.
I've posted my reasons for the TMT vote. No one seemed to agree, but i still think they're valid....but no one else does so i'll move on till more evidence comes available. Same with spotofprey, who in fact has been lurking awfully, but nothing's he's posted as struck me as positive.
Some One though struck me as scummy in my first read through. Post 356 believe it or not was the thing keeping me from voting him at the time or putting him in my scumlist...it strikes me as genuine wondering about what we're missing about the setup as opposed to his non-genuine other posts. Still, i have like 5 or so -s on his posts and only that one +.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
I feel comfortable with it right now.
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
Why do you disagree with the other things people have been saying?
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
TMT apparently got the same read or something:
So I guess I should ask: "Why do you and DYH think that we're wrong?"
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
I also mention it in post 596, in my discussions with Dagger. I'm not saying that I'm the only one who was involved - the groundwork had been laid by others, yourself included. But take a look back at the discussion from that time. A little after the softclaim concluded with Abandon Hope, DYH unvoted from Cyan stating his opinion that he couldn't get Cyan lynched. TMT and ~Tilde~ switched to other targets as well, and the Cyan wagon was officially over, with only andelijah maintaining a vote. That was where things were when I posted my analysis of the Cyan wagon. A direct result of my post was increased focus on Cyan and more people posting opinions of him, and that is what eventually led to his lynch.
I want all of you to think about this logically. Assume that I was Cyan's scumbuddy. Do you really believe that I'd have tried to divert attention away from myself by posting "Hey dudes, you never finished the lynch on this guy"? I will admit that there wasn't much else that I was finding to talk about, but there is no way that I would have tried to generate discussion on Cyan in that circumstance. The potential downside would have just been too high.
If they're making their claims near the end, they can deduce which of the fakeclaims that they made up are safe! Suppose that we'd had one more player than we actually do - call him Placeholder. Placeholder is scum, and has not been provided a fakeclaim. He can use wikipedia or his own knowledge to fabricate a possible fakeclaim, but if he makes his letter claim near the start, he might find that his letter / gender / source claim overlaps with someone else's. That raises the possibility that he'll end up being counterclaimed if he has to come out with a full fake-claim later on.
On the other hand, suppose that Placeholder claims at the very end, after Abandon Hope. He is then able to look over the provided claims and see that his intended claim - B / Male / Other - has already been taken by two people. He then uses a backup claim of K / Male / Other and relaxes, knowing that nobody is going to counterclaim him.
This isn't rocket science. You thought Cyan was scummy. Once you know you want a claim from someone who's acting scummy, you don't give them more information first - you get them to claim first, before moving on to other people. This line of logic doesn't require me to have special knowledge - it just requires me to think about it.
We seem to be just going around in circles on this one. I gave my opinion, and invited others to do so as well. I was curious if others viewed the situation in the same manner that I did.
Try this: what motivation do you think I had for posting the quote from Rorschach that I did in that post? Can you think of a situation where scum would do that? How about townie?
I'm certainly very interested. I was waiting to see which bodies were going to turn up before doing my full reread of you, but now that we're back in day, I should have a position post ready either tomorrow or Monday. I am definitely suspicious, though.
I dislike naked votes. I dislike them even more when they are on me.
Cubus, please provide some explanation for your vote. I understand from your post 688 that you are after me partly because of my opposition to the softclaims. What puts me ahead of the other people on your list? And why, if you're still suspicious of DYH, were you willing to barn him to figure out where to place your vote?
That seems like an awful way to look at things. I've lost games in the past because I focused too much on one player and ignored connections between others.
Focus on connections between certainties. Not uncertainties. If player x is dead scum, we can look at connections. If player y is alive but scummy, looking at connections to other living players is getting ahead of ourselves and is dangerous.
I've never had this be a problem. Lost games? REALLY? That's an exaggeration, it would seem.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Well, games might be an exaggeration. I can definitely recall one game where I got so focused on one player that I thought was scum that I didn't realize that there was no way he could be co-scum with the other people I was suspicious of. If I'd spent a bit more time thinking big picture on that one we might not have mislynched FTL.
really, that's a matter of late game, when a person can't be scum since there's obviously more than one scum left.....but obviously this is not the case here.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
So a person known for long analytical posts makes this kind of mistake, after stating he had time to read. Also nice cover at the end.
No one corrected Dagger so it was just an innocent mistake...
I guess someone did correct Dagger. And now Cubus resurrects this mistake. So either both Dagger and Cubus missed my pro soft claim stance AND ced's correction OR they are trying ever so subtly to start a wagon on a townie. Lucky for me Cubus is giving me "a pass today".
FoS Cubus
FoS Dagger
12-11? I'm losing track
Ah with evidence in hand, no nightkill and Cyan's death, you are voting me because "I rubbed you the wrong way?"
You know what rubbed me the wrong way your continued foolishness when faced with contrary evidence. Wikipedia is not the be all and end all of resources. I could understand a Day 1 jumping off point sure, but to carry into day is weak. loran has made a strong enough case for my innocence, and yet you do not respond to it in any meaningful way. [B]@loran[/B] Thanks for the "He's so useless, he must be town" defense.
[B]@TMT[/B] How did I waffle? I waffled on my own theory! Did I jump on and off a wagon? Did I say Cyan was scum and that I'm going to vote him and not do so? Please show me the waffling.
My scum list:
Dagger
Cubus
Tilde
Roja
TMT feels like mistaken town, possibly scum, but right now I'm on the fence about him
As to my second theory. I believe that we are all heroes from TV, Movies and the Web. Bad horse, indeed. (Nathan Fillion is great in that)
This will make the name claims harder. Elastigirl was a good false claim, but I wonder if anyone else will be as skilled at coming up with more name claims as we go along. The setup is important.
Roja's PM mistake shenangians just feels like hiding in plain sight. Because Captain Marvel and Thunderbolt are the only two characters I know of that are in two different companies.
12-11? I'm losing track
Salvation Mafia Clan
Mafia Stats
last updated 03/23/11
My recollection of your analysis post was more "waffle" and less "let's look at Cyan". Having re-read it (#446), I think you're making a valid argument in your defense, although to my credit there was plenty of non-committal verbiage in it. Fact is, you did twice allude to Cyan's sudden drop from the radar and pointed that A) it was odd since he hadn't produced any additional defense, and B) that was disturbing that he was no longer a topic of conversation.
Still rubbing me slightly the wrong way is the lack of a vote to support that notion. For now, I'm going to review for a new suspect.
Unvote
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
[The Family]
Perhaps waffling is not the right term, though posting "I don't think meta is a good reason to lynch" followed by "not enough town evidence to spare him" to "still not enough evidence for me to vote him" could reasonably be called waffling. Call it fence-sitting if you prefer, it still looks terrible.
Again with the useless and wrong theories. Cubus's claimed character is sourced in a graphic novel (though a film has been made, yes). And my character is sourced in none of those things. Aside from plain-sight lurking, what exactly are you trying to accomplish with these useless theories?
Record: 3-2
Simpsons Mafia (Newbie) - Vanilla Mafia - Win
The Fiasco Corporation - Town Reporter - Loss
Doomsday Mafia - Mafia Roleblocker - Win
Battle Royale Mafia - Serial Daykiller - Loss
Danger City Mafia - Vanilla Town - Win
Any "theory" about what roles could or could not be in the game is gaming the mod and completely useless. If someone comes out with a rolename that seems completely unlikely, we can examine the situation then, based on the circumstances. It's pretty rare for a mod to pick some kind of theme, like "sidekicks," and just arbitrarily make all the roles in the game follow that trend.
[The Family]
Comic book based character that was compiled into a graphic novel. What makes Cubus' claim true? I'm not saying he lied, but again it can't be taken as fact.
My theory isn't useless if we discern a theme or motif, then any claims that are off can be telling later in the game.
Fine if you want to slice hairs, comic heros not from comic books. Why would there be so many others if this was not the case? Why just splash a couple of DC and Marvel characters?
If you disagree with the theory so be it, but to accuse me of plain sight lurking when I'm trying to see if we will have leverage against scum in the later game is just being belligerent for a "hero".
Laziness I guess I'll buy it. TMT replaces Cubus on my scumlist.
12-11? I'm losing track
1) Why do you need to have 4 people on your scumlist? Why not simply remove Cubus?
2) Why is Dagger still there? (also known as, "why didn't you read my point?")
Salvation Mafia Clan
Mafia Stats
last updated 03/23/11
Hmm. Was there any flavor on the roleblock you can discuss? It might give a clue as to the character who did it.
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
1) Why not have four? I was debating TMT's play and accusations against him and his last post struck me as scummy. Cubus said he was being lazy and I accepted it for what it's worth
2) I explained Dagger. He makes huge analytical posts and misreps me. To find the post on my take on softclaims was easy enough for me to do and Dagger is considered the better player than me so logically he has an agenda in adding me to the list of antisoftclaim people
Lastly I thought I had in fact corrected him with the post you mention but I reread it and you are correct I did not. However, it was addressed later by ced so I thought it was fine at that point. Unfortunately that wrong post is now being referenced as the be all end all list. Dagger as town and creator of the list should have reposted it with the correct information since he did ask and cover himself with the last line.
Am I getting to close to one of scumbuddies Ande? You keep hammering on the theory, why not let others decide if my theory is worthwhile? Are you fearful town will catch you later on with a falseclaim?
12-11? I'm losing track
@Infinis: Oh, absolutely. He's got a secret agenda!
Missed this earlier, exactly what question are you...talking about? Mind you i may have missed something, your posts have constantly been large recaps that its easy to miss something, but i do remember responding to you in your last post...so i'm not sure what question you have been repeating...like you claim.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Be more specific on both counts.
You are making a rather big deal out of nothing. Dagger made a mistake. ced corrected him. I don't think Dagger has pushed you on the subject... ever. Where is the problem?
It's not like you're going to be speedlynched because you were on the list - simply referencing your actual reaction will be sufficient if asked.
Your scum list consists of:
1) The people who voted you, might suspect you, or have looked at you funny at one point in the game.
2) Er, see 1?
So even if I were scum, I would not be worried about you catching any of my buddies.
The sample size for your theory yesterday was 1. Today it is 2 (unless you're going to admit to being scum, in which case it could be around 5). Any theory you make today is going to be worthless. It's like a math teacher giving you two points that satisfy a function he has thought up in his head, and then having you try and solve for the function. It is not possible. Ever.
And while there are certainly less than infinite solutions to this setup, there are still a large number and the chances of you guessing the exact theme Ged had in mind, if there even was one, is small.
Salvation Mafia Clan
Mafia Stats
last updated 03/23/11
Multiple problems here. First, Cubus claiming like he did (early) means that he's almost certainly Rorschach - I don't see him gaining an advantage of any kind otherwise. I'm not going to doubt his claim without a good reason. Secondly, the fact that you're having to split hairs as much as you are to phrase this probably means that we can't use it for anything, lest it turn out that we split a hair the wrong way. We can't use it as a basis for anything unless we can trust it.
Finally, even if it were true - what's the point? How is it possibly useful to us? I don't see this line of speculation being anything that we can use now; I also don't see it being useful at any point down the road. I'm not holding the speculation against you, but you need to move on to other things.
Something else that makes me suspicious. How would knowing the character who provided the block help us? How exactly would you narrow it down? I don't see any way that we could find the blocker based solely on flavour today.
Well, how about this for a hypothetical example. Let's say you were tied up last night with rope. That would indicate a character like "Wonder Woman" might be responsible. If anything the flavor of the roleblock might help identify the character who did the roleblock.
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
And if the scum is aware of whether his roleblock method will be revealed or not, he might look for an alternate claim that matches his subclaim.
I'd prefer this info not come out.
Speaking of claims, yo DYH! You initially proposed a 2 step claim. Step 2 was a nameclaim today. Why not go forward? I'm someone doubting they'll reveal much on town abilities here and if the scum really did fear these things...
well?
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Ok, fair enough.
Cyan had a falseclaim as scum, it's not unreasonable to think that the other scum used falseclaims on the day 1 softclaim. A nameclaim might point out which townies have what abilities while the scum stay safely "disguised" as it were.
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
Errr, You think elastigirl was definitely a mod-given false claim? How can you be so sure?
And in this game, where everyone is a certain type of character, you really think rolenames will be giveaways?
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Nice misrep there. I'm just pointing out that Cyan falseclaimed and that the other scum could have come up with falseclaims as well. I don't recall mentioning any "mod-given false claim" in that post.
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
EBWODP: As for whether or not rolenames might be giveaways? Look at Cubus' Rorschach claim. I'd be terribly surprised if he turns out to be vanilla anything.
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
And yet, he could be (Rorschach has no powers or special gadgets and could easily be vanilla in this sort of company). Or he could be any variety of roles.
This is hardly an example of a giveaway.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Exactly. Rorschach could be anything: SK, Paranoid Cop, Town Watcher, Vigilante, you name it. But, because of that potential role-capability, probably the last thing I would categorize him as is "vanilla".
Yes, that's gaming the mod somewhat, but the game is still early. With the possibility that scum either came up with, or were given falseclaims, I think waiting an extra day for nameclaiming might be a good idea.
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
Only one extra day?
What good do you think this will do?
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity