This is a point of disagreement, then. Suppose you are scum. Would you rather have to lock in your soft-claim before or after knowing the soft-claims of the members of the town? The obvious answer is after - I think it's unlikely that every member of the scum would have a false-claim, so (if their names are obviously scummy) some of them are going to have to just make stuff up. You'd rather know that you can claim safely than have to sit there wondering if the claim you've made up is going to conflict with someone else. Now, I'll grant that there are other names out there; the downside to the scum claiming early is fairly low. But it is a downside, and arguing otherwise is being deliberately blind.
You are not getting it. Let's suppose the situation you hypothesized is true and you know it to be true. How would you then eliminate the WIFOM nature of the order of the soft claims? Would you be able to say okay, these are the last quarter of players to softclaim, therefore they're more likely to be scums? If they want to false claim, the malleable nature of the soft claim itself is subjected to multiple possible role names. You simply cannot deduce anything from them without additional or outside sources of information. And these information don't exist during Day 1 or outside of role PMs. It doesn't really matter who claims first. On the low probability of that benefit, how then could you order the claiming so that the scums would claim first? That's nearly impossible. Or are you arguing that Cyan should claim first because you knew for certain he is scum? I don't. Soft claims potentially limit the scums' claim range and might nab some of them. But screaming certain order to the soft claims and harping on either extreme of its advantages/disadvantages might seem the right thing to do, but it doesn't really offer anything substantial.
I gave my position on the topic while also inviting others to comment. I did both. I don't see why you have a problem with this.
I only have problem with the "inviting others to comment" part. Let me state the question again: Why did you feel the need to ask others to comment, when you could have just directly state your opinion on Cubus' rolename as a townie?Clarifying your motivation in doing that would help my read of you.
Did you read what you quoted before responding to it? I acknowledged in there that you'd given positions. I was bemoaning the fact that you weren't giving us your opinions on Cyan, either before or after I raised him as an issue again. You know - the guy you said initially was scum?
The guy I initially said I would be interested in a push on. I never mentioned Cyan was scum then. I said I agreed with the metagame on him when you asked me for my rationale in listing out his name. Now I really believed him to be scum based on his reactions to the pressure against him.
RobRoy: In your post about the Cyan wagon, you mention that you would have joined the Cyan wagon, had you had certain information from Battle Royale mafia at the time. You also say that your current opinion of Cyan isn't worth a vote. Has anything changed between the time when the Cyan wagon was in full swing, and now to make your opinion of Cyan change, or is this all related to the size of the wagon?
@Cyan: Why not addressed this or asked SO for clarification?
And I think Cyan can swing after the less responsive players have checked in. If they haven't, it's obvious they are hoping to not post anything till after night has been reached.
And I think Cyan can swing after the less responsive players have checked in. If they haven't, it's obvious they are hoping to not post anything till after night has been reached.
I would like to wait for Roja who said he would post something of value soon, but do we want to wait until wednesday for Cubus (and perhaps others) to post? Generally, how much should discussion go on for, and when is it time to say enough is enough and the day's lynch is happening (assuming the discussion hasn't been stalled out)?
And since I have some free time, let's discuss something:
Against softclaims:
Cyan
Some One
Jqlgirl
Abandon Hope
Tilde
roja
RobRoy
Infinis
These are the list of players I have noted that initially resisted the idea of soft claims. Some have shifted their mind since then, but I have always believed initial reactions are important indication of a person's mindset. Did I miss or erroneously add anyone?
...
Some notes:
1. Jql needs to respond to me.
2. Roja needs to respond to me.
3. Infinis needs to respond to me.
I feel that meta-game analysis is not a reason for a lynch.
I looked at Cyan's claim and thought it sounded rational. Elastic Girl can avoid and evade dangers with her elastic body.
It was brought up that false claims being handed out is rare, this sits on the fence between meta-gaming and gaming the mod.
I think Cyan bears looking into after Night 1. The argument then arises if not Cyan then who? It seems several players are parsing arguments down where I've lost track of the original accusations. This, for me, is the case with Cyan. What is the basis of suspicion about him other than meta-game arguments?
I have my doubts about Tilde and Roja. But Woe is Me aside, either of them can pull the OMGUS argument and partially nullify my argument. But Roja's "PM mistake" smacks of a scum gambit. And Tilde's crap-logic about my soft claim is so absurd I wonder why he even said it, if not scum trying to start a wagon.
To end on a positive instead of accusatory note, my sidekicks theory is strengthened by Cyan's claim. Also as several pointed out, in regards to Rorsharch, he could be anything including a sidekick.
I'm amused that [Shalako], of all people, are talking about terrible reasoning. "Hey, PF's RVS daykill must be serious, therefore I should shoot him to prove that I have a daykill!"
I would like to wait for Roja who said he would post something of value soon, but do we want to wait until wednesday for Cubus (and perhaps others) to post? Generally, how much should discussion go on for, and when is it time to say enough is enough and the day's lynch is happening (assuming the discussion hasn't been stalled out)?
On that note, SoP hasn't posted in a week.
Well, when the rate of posting in a thread is slowing down a lot, obviously it's time to make a lynch. Until then, no hurry. Having a person slated to be lynched doesn't mean one can't do additional scum-hunting.
Besides, the scums cannot lurk too much. No response after a modprod means a modkill which will obviously only harm their own teams. By hook or by crook, they'll need to post in the thread sooner or later, where we can pick them out one by one.
I'm amused that [Shalako], of all people, are talking about terrible reasoning. "Hey, PF's RVS daykill must be serious, therefore I should shoot him to prove that I have a daykill!"
I think Cyan bears looking into after Night 1. The argument then arises if not Cyan then who? It seems several players are parsing arguments down where I've lost track of the original accusations. This, for me, is the case with Cyan. What is the basis of suspicion about him other than meta-game arguments?
What could happen in Night 1 that potentially will change the wagon? Confirmation on Cyan's ability? Why else would any other player be a good lynch for Day 1, and not Cyan?
Also, metagame aside, what's your opinion on Cyan's posts and reactions to the pressure on him thus far in this game?
It is overwhelmingly obvious to me that Elastigirl is a town role, and it's ridiculous that people want to play Devil's Advocate about it. There is no 'knowing better' on Day 1. This whole thing is ridiculous, you don't just go into a themed game, assuming that flavor is not going to be relevant.
And, on the same note, the mod does not go into a themed game and assume that, since flavor is relevant, people won't try to break it. There will be safeguards of some sort - either flavorful inaccuracies, false claims, or obvious town roles missing (although not likely to be the last one in this case).
Another question - if it is your name that clears you and your role is irrelevant, why not just nameclaim first? Especially since you apparently thought everyone would unvote at the sight of your name.
If I say "yes," will you stop arguing? Or is the only answer you will accept "no"?
Are you arguing with my analysis at all? I tossed some analysis into the pool, knowing that it wasn't of immediate use. Are you trying to say that I shouldn't have made that post?
Pretty much. Tomorrow it probably won't even be useful, surely a lot has changed since your original reads of the wagon.
Do you believe that me making that post was not a townie action?
It certainly could be a townie action - someone who is trying to reintegrate themselves with the game, catch up and make a post, no matter how inconclusive. It could also be a scum action - making a post that makes no enemies while still appearing to contribute.
The only thing I can think of is that you're trying to discredit the analysis by attacking me. Why else are you making a fuss about this?
Surely you're more imaginative than that. It can't possibly be that I suspect you, or that I feel interrogation will give me a better read of you than inconclusive posts.
Some read off my mind (because I'm going to sleep zzz):
GR: I went from leaning town to leaning neutral to leaning-town-but-not-quite-town-because-I-was-leaning-neutral on him.
loran: I went from leaning town to leaning uncertain, because of his reaction to Cyan's wagon, to leaning scum because of his reread list. But maybe I overreact? ~wavering -_- wavering~ I cannot believe I can have such a different wavelength of a read than loran? Is it because he have a different mindset? ~~~>_>
SO: I think his actions during the soft claims sparked off my initial interest in him (can't remember which specific ones, need to reread that part). And I have yet to remove his name because I haven't seen any townish indication thus far from him. Did anyone read him differently?
@Ande: Thanks. Added you in.
Also, I am quite quite certain, based on behavior alone (and pending new information), that ced95, CC, DYH, TMT, and Ande are town.
Also, I am quite quite certain, based on behavior alone (and pending new information), that ced95, CC, DYH, TMT, and Ande are town.
Wow. I agree with you on the bolded player, lean toward the same way with the italicized players (Though i'm more confident on CC than ande...something about ande's play the last 2 games has really thrown me off, especially the sarcasm and questions. It's like a massive playstyle switch if i recall ande correct, but i'm still reading him town. Anyhow...). And way Different on the other 2, as you know.
And for the record, i feel far more sure on the players on the Definitely town side of my list above than i do about the scum players, considering my accuracy of late. Still, TMT is sooo scum.
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Wow. I agree with you on the bolded player, lean toward the same way with the italicized players (Though i'm more confident on CC than ande...something about ande's play the last 2 games has really thrown me off, especially the sarcasm and questions. It's like a massive playstyle switch if i recall ande correct, but i'm still reading him town. Anyhow...). And way Different on the other 2, as you know.
And for the record, i feel far more sure on the players on the Definitely town side of my list above than i do about the scum players, considering my accuracy of late. Still, TMT is sooo scum.
I don't really see accuracy has to do with anything. If anything, it provides a convenient excuse to use -_-".
Anyway, I think Ande's play is more cautious and less pursuing as a scum, IIRC.
Andelijah has recently taken to using short, direct questions as his playstyle. It's good as an ambivalent style because he can either be a probing townie analyst or a looking-interested-but-not-really scum.
I can't keep myself from typing that much, or I'd adapt it myself.
Andelijah has recently taken to using short, direct questions as his playstyle. It's good as an ambivalent style because he can either be a probing townie analyst or a looking-interested-but-not-really scum.
I can't keep myself from typing that much, or I'd adapt it myself.
Is it? I remembered being supremely irritated with Ande keep hounding my tail in HP Mafia to the extend I was pushing for him to be NKed Night 1.
You are not getting it. Let's suppose the situation you hypothesized is true and you know it to be true. How would you then eliminate the WIFOM nature of the order of the soft claims? Would you be able to say okay, these are the last quarter of players to softclaim, therefore they're more likely to be scums? If they want to false claim, the malleable nature of the soft claim itself is subjected to multiple possible role names. You simply cannot deduce anything from them without additional or outside sources of information. And these information don't exist during Day 1 or outside of role PMs. It doesn't really matter who claims first. On the low probability of that benefit, how then could you order the claiming so that the scums would claim first? That's nearly impossible. Or are you arguing that Cyan should claim first because you knew for certain he is scum? I don't. Soft claims potentially limit the scums' claim range and might nab some of them. But screaming certain order to the soft claims and harping on either extreme of its advantages/disadvantages might seem the right thing to do, but it doesn't really offer anything substantial.
That's a lot of words. I'll try to clarify - let me know if I misunderstand anything.
You are correct that I'm making some suppositions - for instance, that the scum will need to lie instead of telling the truth when making their soft-claim. It is possible that the order of the soft-claim doesn't matter. But the fact remains that if it makes a difference what the claim order is, the scum would certainly rather have more information than less while making their claim, which means in turn that they would rather claim later.
I had, in fact, asked for a claim order to be decided on before getting soft-claims done, for exactly this reason. It's true that deciding on an order for that early on in the game is problematic, and I'm not sure how to best go about doing it. Any solution that doesn't involve someone who can be absolutely trusted is suspect, and I'm not sure how to get around that.
Because of this, I do think that those who claimed later are more likely to be scum. It isn't a big thing - I'm not recommending that we limit our lynches to the last five on the list or anything - but I'm going to keep it in mind. Cyan was the second-last to claim, but in his case, the fact that his soft-claim overlaps that of CropCircles overrides the mild scumminess of claiming late.
Finally, I don't see how you can argue against my statement that Cyan should have made his soft-claim before anyone else did. I'll concede the point that it would be too much trouble to force a strict order for everyone to make their soft-claim in. But Cyan was regarded by many as being scummy, as indicated by him being the vote leader. As it was, he was able to make his soft-claim after having seen them from almost everyone else, instead of before. If you thought he was scummier than everyone else, I don't know why you don't consider this harmful to the town.
I only have problem with the "inviting others to comment" part. Let me state the question again: Why did you feel the need to ask others to comment, when you could have just directly state your opinion on Cubus' rolename as a townie?Clarifying your motivation in doing that would help my read of you.
I did give an opinion, but I didn't know how well it would match reality. So I presented it in a way that encouraged others to comment on the topic as well. I'm really not sure what else to say here - presenting opinions and asking questions are usually both townie things. Why are you attacking me for doing both at once?
The guy I initially said I would be interested in a push on. I never mentioned Cyan was scum then. I said I agreed with the metagame on him when you asked me for my rationale in listing out his name. Now I really believed him to be scum based on his reactions to the pressure against him.
This has gotten rather far afield of my initial point. Let me recap.
On the 12th, you made this post saying that you supported a push against Cyan, but that you thought we should soft-claim before pushing Cyan into doing a claim of any kind. As I've said above, I disagree with that logic - I think that the guy who is currently believed scummy should be made to give information first, instead of being allowed to choose his moment. At least partially as a result of the soft-claim distracting people, the Cyan wagon dissipated, and you never followed up on Cyan (or on Some One, the other person you said you'd support a push on) until after I started his wagon back up, six days later.
For this to really be damaging to you, Cyan would have to be a scum-buddy, since otherwise there's no reason for you to try to distract attention from him when you did. But if Cyan turns up scum, you jump up to the head of my list of people to go after next.
I gave opinions on Cyan from before his claim here - I considered that answer enough to that question. I still need to do a reread of Cyan to see how I feel about him after the claim.
It certainly could be a townie action - someone who is trying to reintegrate themselves with the game, catch up and make a post, no matter how inconclusive. It could also be a scum action - making a post that makes no enemies while still appearing to contribute.
Surely you're more imaginative than that. It can't possibly be that I suspect you, or that I feel interrogation will give me a better read of you than inconclusive posts.
Right, well - I don't feel that this conversation is actually helping anyone. After looking back at it, I think I was a little aggressive in my initial responses to you, which probably fueled this particular debate past the point of usefulness. Let me know if there are any specific questions you want me to answer that I haven't already - otherwise I'm just going to move on to other things.
Wow. I agree with you on the bolded player, lean toward the same way with the italicized players
While it's fairly obvious who you mean from your later comments, let me just state for the record that you can't see added italics in a quoted section.
(Though i'm more confident on CC than ande...something about ande's play the last 2 games has really thrown me off, especially the sarcasm and questions. It's like a massive playstyle switch if i recall ande correct, but i'm still reading him town. Anyhow...).
I think the largest shift (at least the largest conscious one) is that I'm trying to enjoy my games more. Instead of going back through the threads and making cases (when I actually had time in High School), I've basically just been posting what I feel like when I feel like it. I think this also comes as a subconscious choice because I've been dying fairly early in several games, and so investing a lot of time in rereads isn't really worth it.
The result is generally shorter posts (or at least lots of short points in response to a larger post), and that I'm more antagonistic.
Speaking of which:
Quote from Rob Roy »
Right, well - I don't feel that this conversation is actually helping anyone. After looking back at it, I think I was a little aggressive in my initial responses to you, which probably fueled this particular debate past the point of usefulness. Let me know if there are any specific questions you want me to answer that I haven't already - otherwise I'm just going to move on to other things.
While it's fairly obvious who you mean from your later comments, let me just state for the record that you can't see added italics in a quoted section.
<----Fail.
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
What could happen in Night 1 that potentially will change the wagon? Confirmation on Cyan's ability? Why else would any other player be a good lynch for Day 1, and not Cyan?
Actually if anything, that hurts the town, as it would potentially negate a useful town ability by wasting it on Cyan just to confirm his stated ability. It would do nothing to verify his townieness and come Day 2, we'd have to go through the rigamarole of lynching Cyan again, though this time around the day would likely be very short and we wouldn't get any info from it.
Cyan's a valid lynch for today, we can take our time if we want but barring a player jumping up and down saying "I'm Scum! Kill Me!", putting Cyan on the chopping block is probably how this day will end.
Quote from Dagger »
And since I have some free time, let's discuss something:
Against softclaims:
Cyan
Some One
Jqlgirl
Abandon Hope
Tilde
roja
RobRoy
Infinis
These are the list of players I have noted that initially resisted the idea of soft claims. Some have shifted their mind since then, but I have always believed initial reactions are important indication of a person's mindset.
Quote from Me, post #345 »
It seems a majority have decided to go along with the soft claim. I don't like it, but I'll go ahead and humor DYH. I'll even compile a list of claims so far.
As I said, I wasn't thrilled with the soft claim, but the information was already out there. There was no longer a reason for me to be opposed to it. If the scum could gain advantage from it, they would have.
OK a lot of good stuff posted here with some bad stuff.
First Numegil comming up as town shouldn't be that much of a suprise however CC nailed it on the exact quoting. And if I am correct SomeOne, Cyan, DYH and Jqlgirl were all voting for him (And in that order too.) Mental noted. Onto the posts:
The problem I have is that the only thing to 'talk about', at this point, is my wagon and what I don't like about it. And that never works out well for anyone.
Just because you don't want to talk about it dosen't mean there wasen't anything going on.
Whatever, I'll just claim so we can move on. Maybe then you guys will believe what I was saying all along.
I am Elastigirl. My flexibility allows me to be untargetable.
So an ability where we cannot confirm you with any actions.. yay us?
Huh? FoS JqlGirl
You slammed the Cyan case as "weak" in 433. You analyzed and leaned town on him in 335. Now, all of a sudden, you're considering voting for him, entirely based on his claim?
Also, the last sentence reads quite like a get-out clause.
/bard Ced here. I feel Jqlgirl's reasoning for numegil was very weak at best. WHY NOT ask for a prod?
You made a conclusion on Cyan's playstyle as a scum but then added in a disclaimer? Doesn't that made your conclusion WIFOM?
Yes based on the info I collect (and just that info) Cyan is clearly scum. CLEARLY. However I was taking into the effect of the "what if's" I mean could someone who plays as scum really post the same way twice? (WIFOM I know but it made my head scratch.)
And i'll post what I have on DYH here as well using the same mesurements:
DYH’s contribution of Mafia Games
This game: Game started 02/06/09 - 02/10/09 Posted a whopping 37 times! DYH is ??
Prehistoric Mafia DYH replaced in on 08/12/2008 – 08/16/2008 (Day 2) Posted 10 posts DYH was town. (Ironically nailing Cyan from the start.)
Harry Potter Maifa Game started 03/27/08 – 03/31/2008 Posted only 4 times. DYH was Mafia.
“Beserk” Mafia DYH replaced in on 08/07/2008 – 08/11/2008 (Day 1) Posted 5 times. DYH was Town.
Doomsday Mafia Game started 08/20/2008 – 08/24/2008 DYH Posted Once. DYH was Town.
Smalltown Mafia Game started 09/20/2008 – 09/24/2008 DYH posted 3 times. DYH was Scum.
I really have no idea how to make of this.. DYH is showing activity that in my findings (remember first page only) that is really inconsistant for him being both town OR mafia..
1) Cyan is townie, and Elastigirl.
2) Cyan is scum and was provided Elastigirl as a false-claim.
3) Cyan is co-scum with CropCircles, and they have two claims set up for that letter combination. CC also claimed near the end, so this could have been done deliberately.
Several differences:
1) He was SK - which allowed him to hunt scum. He is probable mafia in this game.
2) He was unkillable - which allowed him to hunt scum.
3) He was uninvestigatable - which allowed him to act as aggressive as he wanted.
4) He was unlynchable - you get the point.
This is good stuff. I know I didn't think of all of this. (And your number three is dead on, and yet he didn't/hasen't)
I don't like the fact he failed to address one of the points I brought up that you agreed with, along with another point I had.
On that note, does any further discussion need to occur before we see him swing?
He hasen't answered you, but you are still willing to see him hang before so? That is if anyone else says "Yea we don't need Cyan to answer"..? I dont like this.
As for Cyan, it seems he really is only interested in talking when the topic is about him. There have been several topics here he COULD have responded too (bulldogishly even) and hasen't. (And when he did it was on Numegil of all people who was modkilled..)
Even though my findings of DYH are nothing to really make heads or tails of his actions. Cyan's actions are continuiosly quite and not what I remember Cyan of playing (esp in the beginning of games where we have played).
VOTE CYAN
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Just a quick note, Roja: I replaced into Doomsday on Day 2. I think I made a joke about someone not confirming before the game started, though, in the thread.
Just a quick note, Roja: I replaced into Doomsday on Day 2. I think I made a joke about someone not confirming before the game started, though, in the thread.
Oh really, Sorry was only looking at the beginning. I'll correct it.
~~
See that was real quick:
Prehistoric Scum Cyan went with the flow.
FF7 SK Cyan was biting the hell out of people (Starting with his THIRD post.)
Not everything adds up with Cyan.
VOTE CYAN
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Check out Hollywood 2, while you're at it. He doesn't have that many posts, it'll be a quick read.
And as has been mentioned in this thread, he was a replacement in that game, so you don't get any sense of his normal start-of-game posting from it. You were in that game as well, so you know this - why are you bringing this up again?
Well, anyway - my thoughts on Cyan now. It's indisputable that he's been posting far less than he normally has. This has been compounded by the fact that he has apparently been reading along with the thread, since he's posted in fairly short order when he was called out for it, but he never mended his ways to provide content until the wagon boiled up. I also think that ced395 made a good point here that Cyan never told us that he was making a decision to alter his playstyle until well after he was under suspicion for it. All of this means that I have no reason to want him to stay alive, especially since we will never really have more information about him than we do now - I don't doubt that he's actually untargetable, so I don't see any point in verifying that aspect of his role.
The only thing keeping this from being an outright endorsement of his death is the rest of the wagon. There are several people on it that I have doubts about, most recently CropCircles. Abandon Hope has been posting minimally and goatrevolt appears to have taken a job that pays him to be wishy-washy. However, there are also several people I'm dubious about who aren't on the wagon (JqlGirl, loran16) so that balances out. I'd like to (at a minimum) give spotofprey time for his promised post; give a little more time after that for additional information and last-minute posts, and then I'd be okay seeing Cyan swing.
How can you have had two companies listed in your role PM?
...where have you been? He later clarified his PM was incorrect and that he was actually Marvel.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
...where have you been? He later clarified his PM was incorrect and that he was actually Marvel.
Yes, I know that. But right here he said that he had the wrong company in his initial PM, and it was based on that that he claimed both DC and Other. Does this mean that his role PM said both DC and Other? How can that be? That's why I want clarification.
Same here. I may have already mentioned it, but in my two completed games with andelijah, in both of which he was town, I got a very slight scum vibe from his posts, for reasons I didn't know. Here, I'm not getting them. I'm not sure what it means.
You're getting used to my play.
I believe that Roja was talking about alignment.
I'm well aware - but you can't hold untargetability against someone (unless you want to claim its exclusively a scum ability, which I would disagree with) just because you can't verify their alignment because of it.
@ Roja - he failed to answer it the first time I brought that point up along with another point. Then, DYH brought up that same point and Cyan didn't address it. Then, I made the post in regards to the fact he hasn't addressed the points at all, and currently, he STILL has yet to do so.
On that note, believe I stated before I would feel comfortable with a vote on Cyan, but certainly don't want to end the day prematurely when there is no deadline and the discussion is continuing at a steady pace.
I don't agree with your current scum choices (assuming they match your ones from a few pages back), but I would note that you correctly identified the mafia team right at the start of day 2 in fairytale mafia.
I'd like to point out that a blind mule should've been able to do that.....the game was broken, but some smart saving plays from Kraj and armlx. And i did completely whiff on DV in that same game. Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! I'm soooooo good!
(TMT is still scum btw).
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
To end on a positive instead of accusatory note, my sidekicks theory is strengthened by Cyan's claim. Also as several pointed out, in regards to Rorsharch, he could be anything including a sidekick.
Your sidekick theory is wrong.
--------
I'm still interested in seeing Cyan hang. And I'm not a believer in the philosophy that longer days are strictly better for the town. If we're extending the day to specifically hear from certain people, that's fine. If we're doing it simply because there's no deadline, so there's no rush, then I'd suggest we stop. Not all discussion is helpful, and excessively long days can just muddy the water.
Quick clarification on my softclaim position: I was opposed to it initially, but knew it couldn't do too much harm, probably, and thus when most people ended up in favour, I went along with it. I hope that makes sense.
Just how you initially thought on Cyan was that he was town, and then when more and more people started expression opinions to the contrary, you changed your mind?
Almost certainly. Just like Grimclaw and Xyre were in Seinfeld mafia.
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
No, I considered changing my opinion because of his odd claim, but then realized that I still didn't see enough evidence to support lynching him, so I decided not to vote him.
So who do you support the lynch of instead? Do you think anyone else at this point has more evidence to support their lynch than Cyan?
Elaborating will kill the joke (I actually just went back and noticed like 4 players in the mafia community that still play here might actually remember seinfeld....so it was rather poor. DYH is one of them though, so he might get it.) You'd have to look at my play, their play and days 2 and 3 (Xyre and grim respectively) to understand it.
It's funny to me. And maybe DYH.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Honestly, I don't have a top suspect, but I don't think that Cyan is the right choice at the moment. And of course, this is why we only need a majority of votes and not a unanimous decision. I don't support Cyan's lynch given the current evidence. Period.
Whether or not I have another suspect in mind has no bearing on this fact, nor should it.
This comes off as extremely defensive aka suspicious. You don't advocate the lynch of Cyan because there is "not enough evidence" at the same time you don't advocate any other player's lynch or feel there has been enough evidence gathered to build a case against another player. This is especially suspicious considering the fact that if you legitimately thought Cyan was town, wouldn't you find some of his attackers suspicious (such as DYH, for example)?
What made me think he was making a case? It was there. I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Roja didn't have to draw a conclusion from the facts for it to be a case, which seems to be your premise.
Next time you want an answer, restating the question would be cool.
Sorry to disappoint, Loran, but I really don't remember much from Seinfeld other than you were Jerry Seinfeld and that we killed CC after he replaced in and had read the entire thread at night and never got to make a post.
Cyan was here and didn't bother to say anything further in his defense. That should tell you all you need to know about this lynch. He's not offered any opinion on who is scum - other than his attackers, of course - and he's ensuring he doesn't slip up with anything else at this point. It's time for him to die.
What could happen in Night 1 that potentially will change the wagon? Confirmation on Cyan's ability? Why else would any other player be a good lynch for Day 1, and not Cyan?
Also, metagame aside, what's your opinion on Cyan's posts and reactions to the pressure on him thus far in this game?
Cyan played how I would've played it if I was untargetable. Basically he was trying to avoid the very situation we have now. His unagressive play, which it was, set off the alarms of many of you, before his claim.
Cyan also stated that discussing his own wagon wouldn't get him anywhere. He was right since his wagon only got stronger the more explanations he provided.
His argument Elastagirl is obviously town is bad logic. As has been pointed out, we do not know if false claims have been provided, we don't know if anyone can be deemed obvious town or scum based on a name claim.
Cyan tried to point out alternate suspects, DYH IIRC, but momentum had taken hold of his wagon.
At this point we would have to start nearly from scratch if anyone but Cyan is lynched. I don't think there is enough "Cyan is town evidence" to warrant sparing him. Fence sitting aside I think he was railroaded by meta-game analyis and based purely on his in game play he hasn't earned my vote yet.
On a seperate note, I was not anti-soft-claim.
@goatrevolt I think most of us can see by now my side kick theory is dead. I was just reviewing the facts and realized I was forcing the facts to fit the theory. Especially now when a much better theory is now germinating in my mind.
I'm amused that [Shalako], of all people, are talking about terrible reasoning. "Hey, PF's RVS daykill must be serious, therefore I should shoot him to prove that I have a daykill!"
At this point we would have to start nearly from scratch if anyone but Cyan is lynched. I don't think there is enough "Cyan is town evidence" to warrant sparing him. Fence sitting aside I think he was railroaded by meta-game analyis and based purely on his in game play he hasn't earned my vote yet.
TMT scans Infinis's post with his trusty townometer. The needle buries itself in the "This post is terrible" range. Quickly, he grabs another FoSium grenade.
There's not enough "'Cyan is town evidence' to warrant sparing him", but he hasn't earned your vote? If you were town, you would be more concerned with evidence that he's scum than you would evidence that he's town. A true hero would never just let someone swing because they haven't proven themselves to be town. Then again, if you were his scumbuddy I would expect less wishy-washy and more bus. My heroic instincts tell me something is terribly wrong with your fence-riding here. I read two possible things from this post:
1) Cyan is town, you are scum or neutral, you don't want to fight the mislynch, but you want to be able to say "look, I refused to vote the townie!".
2) Cyan is scum, you are neutral, you don't want to risk bandwagoning on a townie, but you also don't want to risk having avoided a wagon on a scum.
I think 2) is more likely, since I still believe Cyan to be scum, but either way I think you're a good place to start tomorrow. Take this!
TMT scans Infinis's post with his trusty townometer. The needle buries itself in the "This post is terrible" range. Quickly, he grabs another FoSium grenade.
There's not enough "'Cyan is town evidence' to warrant sparing him", but he hasn't earned your vote? If you were town, you would be more concerned with evidence that he's scum than you would evidence that he's town. A true hero would never just let someone swing because they haven't proven themselves to be town. Then again, if you were his scumbuddy I would expect less wishy-washy and more bus. My heroic instincts tell me something is terribly wrong with your fence-riding here. I read two possible things from this post:
1) Cyan is town, you are scum or neutral, you don't want to fight the mislynch, but you want to be able to say "look, I refused to vote the townie!".
2) Cyan is scum, you are neutral, you don't want to risk bandwagoning on a townie, but you also don't want to risk having avoided a wagon on a scum.
I think 2) is more likely, since I still believe Cyan to be scum, but either way I think you're a good place to start tomorrow. Take this!
FoS Infinis
ARE YOU SPACEMAN SPIFF???
I CAN DIE HAPPY IF YOU ARE SPACEMAN SPIFF :link::link::link::link::link::link:
I was against the Cyan wagon at the start - it really didn't seem to have much substance, and most of the "evidence" came from DYH and Cyan trying to one up each other and show who was the big man in the game. Cyan's claim is a big point for him, as it is both flavorful and testable. But the resulting pressure forced Cyan to flail a little bit (I hate the term "flail", but it fits here), and I'm convinced now. I would vote, but a couple people said they wanted to wait for a couple of people (including me) to check in, so I'm going to give them that opportunity.
Other random observations-
I'm not sure what RobRoy is getting heat for - soft claim procedure semantics? Doesn't seem like something to get all fired up for.
I appreciate andelijah's posting style - it may be less transparent, but it is a hell of a lot easier to read and follow than the Paragraph Crusades that some people tend to enjoy.
I'm not that surprised by the modkill - Ged said he was taking participation seriously, and letting in a replacement after that firm of a stance would invalidate the entire reasoning for it in the first place.
I'm not a real fan of Abandon Hope. I'm not trying to flame or make a personal attack, but you post like an angry-drunk version of Chamber. It really doesn't help anyone and wastes time when people need to ask for a follow up.
I'm not that surprised by so many "other" claims. My own role is someone I've never heard of, and never heard of the source material.
Sorry again to Ged and everyone for losing track of time. DYH vs. Cyan sucked me in and I lost all sense of time.
I wasn't against the soft claim idea. It usually stirs up discussion (not the claims themselves, but someone saying something stupid regarding them) and I feel they give very little advantage to the scum.
I was against the Cyan wagon at the start - it really didn't seem to have much substance, and most of the "evidence" came from DYH and Cyan trying to one up each other and show who was the big man in the game. Cyan's claim is a big point for him, as it is both flavorful and testable. But the resulting pressure forced Cyan to flail a little bit (I hate the term "flail", but it fits here), and I'm convinced now. I would vote, but a couple people said they wanted to wait for a couple of people (including me) to check in, so I'm going to give them that opportunity.
Other random observations-
I'm not sure what RobRoy is getting heat for - soft claim procedure semantics? Doesn't seem like something to get all fired up for.
I appreciate andelijah's posting style - it may be less transparent, but it is a hell of a lot easier to read and follow than the Paragraph Crusades that some people tend to enjoy.
I'm not that surprised by the modkill - Ged said he was taking participation seriously, and letting in a replacement after that firm of a stance would invalidate the entire reasoning for it in the first place.
I'm not a real fan of Abandon Hope. I'm not trying to flame or make a personal attack, but you post like an angry-drunk version of Chamber. It really doesn't help anyone and wastes time when people need to ask for a follow up.
I'm not that surprised by so many "other" claims. My own role is someone I've never heard of, and never heard of the source material.
Sorry again to Ged and everyone for losing track of time. DYH vs. Cyan sucked me in and I lost all sense of time.
Wow, talk about a scummy post trying to justify getting onto a wagon when he knows someone will come up town. Especially coming from someone that was nowhere to be seen until my wagon esentially became a foregone conclusion. Give me a break.
A)I never 'flailed'. I made the same arguments all day, and no one listened.
B)I like the part where you say that you think my wagon has on substance, and that my claim is a big point for me, and then mike a minor addendum of 'but he flailed a little bit' and 'conclude' that you're ready to vote me. Get real.
Unvote, Vote Spotofprey
If you guys don't realize that this post is nothing but a scum trying to look good preemptively when he lynches a townie, then, I don't know what to tell you.
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You are not getting it. Let's suppose the situation you hypothesized is true and you know it to be true. How would you then eliminate the WIFOM nature of the order of the soft claims? Would you be able to say okay, these are the last quarter of players to softclaim, therefore they're more likely to be scums? If they want to false claim, the malleable nature of the soft claim itself is subjected to multiple possible role names. You simply cannot deduce anything from them without additional or outside sources of information. And these information don't exist during Day 1 or outside of role PMs. It doesn't really matter who claims first. On the low probability of that benefit, how then could you order the claiming so that the scums would claim first? That's nearly impossible. Or are you arguing that Cyan should claim first because you knew for certain he is scum? I don't. Soft claims potentially limit the scums' claim range and might nab some of them. But screaming certain order to the soft claims and harping on either extreme of its advantages/disadvantages might seem the right thing to do, but it doesn't really offer anything substantial.
I only have problem with the "inviting others to comment" part. Let me state the question again: Why did you feel the need to ask others to comment, when you could have just directly state your opinion on Cubus' rolename as a townie? Clarifying your motivation in doing that would help my read of you.
The guy I initially said I would be interested in a push on. I never mentioned Cyan was scum then. I said I agreed with the metagame on him when you asked me for my rationale in listing out his name. Now I really believed him to be scum based on his reactions to the pressure against him.
I think this covers Ande's reasoning, IMO. If I'm wrong, correct me.
@loran: You missed this?
@RR: Answer this then?
@Cyan: Why not addressed this or asked SO for clarification?
Some notes:
1. Jql needs to respond to me.
2. Roja needs to respond to me.
3. Infinis needs to respond to me.
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
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And I think Cyan can swing after the less responsive players have checked in. If they haven't, it's obvious they are hoping to not post anything till after night has been reached.
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
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I would like to wait for Roja who said he would post something of value soon, but do we want to wait until wednesday for Cubus (and perhaps others) to post? Generally, how much should discussion go on for, and when is it time to say enough is enough and the day's lynch is happening (assuming the discussion hasn't been stalled out)?
On that note, SoP hasn't posted in a week.
Against softclaims:
Cyan
Some One
Jqlgirl
Abandon Hope
Tilde
roja
RobRoy
Infinis
These are the list of players I have noted that initially resisted the idea of soft claims. Some have shifted their mind since then, but I have always believed initial reactions are important indication of a person's mindset. Did I miss or erroneously add anyone?
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I feel that meta-game analysis is not a reason for a lynch.
I looked at Cyan's claim and thought it sounded rational. Elastic Girl can avoid and evade dangers with her elastic body.
It was brought up that false claims being handed out is rare, this sits on the fence between meta-gaming and gaming the mod.
I think Cyan bears looking into after Night 1. The argument then arises if not Cyan then who? It seems several players are parsing arguments down where I've lost track of the original accusations. This, for me, is the case with Cyan. What is the basis of suspicion about him other than meta-game arguments?
I have my doubts about Tilde and Roja. But Woe is Me aside, either of them can pull the OMGUS argument and partially nullify my argument. But Roja's "PM mistake" smacks of a scum gambit. And Tilde's crap-logic about my soft claim is so absurd I wonder why he even said it, if not scum trying to start a wagon.
To end on a positive instead of accusatory note, my sidekicks theory is strengthened by Cyan's claim. Also as several pointed out, in regards to Rorsharch, he could be anything including a sidekick.
Where does this get us, not very far yet...
12-11? I'm losing track
Well, when the rate of posting in a thread is slowing down a lot, obviously it's time to make a lynch. Until then, no hurry. Having a person slated to be lynched doesn't mean one can't do additional scum-hunting.
Besides, the scums cannot lurk too much. No response after a modprod means a modkill which will obviously only harm their own teams. By hook or by crook, they'll need to post in the thread sooner or later, where we can pick them out one by one.
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
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12-11? I'm losing track
What could happen in Night 1 that potentially will change the wagon? Confirmation on Cyan's ability? Why else would any other player be a good lynch for Day 1, and not Cyan?
Also, metagame aside, what's your opinion on Cyan's posts and reactions to the pressure on him thus far in this game?
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
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Another question - if it is your name that clears you and your role is irrelevant, why not just nameclaim first? Especially since you apparently thought everyone would unvote at the sight of your name.
If I say "yes," will you stop arguing? Or is the only answer you will accept "no"?
Pretty much. Tomorrow it probably won't even be useful, surely a lot has changed since your original reads of the wagon.
It certainly could be a townie action - someone who is trying to reintegrate themselves with the game, catch up and make a post, no matter how inconclusive. It could also be a scum action - making a post that makes no enemies while still appearing to contribute.
Surely you're more imaginative than that. It can't possibly be that I suspect you, or that I feel interrogation will give me a better read of you than inconclusive posts.
Salvation Mafia Clan
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GR: I went from leaning town to leaning neutral to leaning-town-but-not-quite-town-because-I-was-leaning-neutral on him.
loran: I went from leaning town to leaning uncertain, because of his reaction to Cyan's wagon, to leaning scum because of his reread list. But maybe I overreact? ~wavering -_- wavering~ I cannot believe I can have such a different wavelength of a read than loran? Is it because he have a different mindset? ~~~>_>
SO: I think his actions during the soft claims sparked off my initial interest in him (can't remember which specific ones, need to reread that part). And I have yet to remove his name because I haven't seen any townish indication thus far from him. Did anyone read him differently?
@Ande: Thanks. Added you in.
Also, I am quite quite certain, based on behavior alone (and pending new information), that ced95, CC, DYH, TMT, and Ande are town.
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
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Wow. I agree with you on the bolded player, lean toward the same way with the italicized players (Though i'm more confident on CC than ande...something about ande's play the last 2 games has really thrown me off, especially the sarcasm and questions. It's like a massive playstyle switch if i recall ande correct, but i'm still reading him town. Anyhow...). And way Different on the other 2, as you know.
And for the record, i feel far more sure on the players on the Definitely town side of my list above than i do about the scum players, considering my accuracy of late. Still, TMT is sooo scum.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
I don't really see accuracy has to do with anything. If anything, it provides a convenient excuse to use -_-".
Anyway, I think Ande's play is more cautious and less pursuing as a scum, IIRC.
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
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I can't keep myself from typing that much, or I'd adapt it myself.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Is it? I remembered being supremely irritated with Ande keep hounding my tail in HP Mafia to the extend I was pushing for him to be NKed Night 1.
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That's a lot of words. I'll try to clarify - let me know if I misunderstand anything.
You are correct that I'm making some suppositions - for instance, that the scum will need to lie instead of telling the truth when making their soft-claim. It is possible that the order of the soft-claim doesn't matter. But the fact remains that if it makes a difference what the claim order is, the scum would certainly rather have more information than less while making their claim, which means in turn that they would rather claim later.
I had, in fact, asked for a claim order to be decided on before getting soft-claims done, for exactly this reason. It's true that deciding on an order for that early on in the game is problematic, and I'm not sure how to best go about doing it. Any solution that doesn't involve someone who can be absolutely trusted is suspect, and I'm not sure how to get around that.
Because of this, I do think that those who claimed later are more likely to be scum. It isn't a big thing - I'm not recommending that we limit our lynches to the last five on the list or anything - but I'm going to keep it in mind. Cyan was the second-last to claim, but in his case, the fact that his soft-claim overlaps that of CropCircles overrides the mild scumminess of claiming late.
Finally, I don't see how you can argue against my statement that Cyan should have made his soft-claim before anyone else did. I'll concede the point that it would be too much trouble to force a strict order for everyone to make their soft-claim in. But Cyan was regarded by many as being scummy, as indicated by him being the vote leader. As it was, he was able to make his soft-claim after having seen them from almost everyone else, instead of before. If you thought he was scummier than everyone else, I don't know why you don't consider this harmful to the town.
I did give an opinion, but I didn't know how well it would match reality. So I presented it in a way that encouraged others to comment on the topic as well. I'm really not sure what else to say here - presenting opinions and asking questions are usually both townie things. Why are you attacking me for doing both at once?
This has gotten rather far afield of my initial point. Let me recap.
On the 12th, you made this post saying that you supported a push against Cyan, but that you thought we should soft-claim before pushing Cyan into doing a claim of any kind. As I've said above, I disagree with that logic - I think that the guy who is currently believed scummy should be made to give information first, instead of being allowed to choose his moment. At least partially as a result of the soft-claim distracting people, the Cyan wagon dissipated, and you never followed up on Cyan (or on Some One, the other person you said you'd support a push on) until after I started his wagon back up, six days later.
For this to really be damaging to you, Cyan would have to be a scum-buddy, since otherwise there's no reason for you to try to distract attention from him when you did. But if Cyan turns up scum, you jump up to the head of my list of people to go after next.
I gave opinions on Cyan from before his claim here - I considered that answer enough to that question. I still need to do a reread of Cyan to see how I feel about him after the claim.
Right, well - I don't feel that this conversation is actually helping anyone. After looking back at it, I think I was a little aggressive in my initial responses to you, which probably fueled this particular debate past the point of usefulness. Let me know if there are any specific questions you want me to answer that I haven't already - otherwise I'm just going to move on to other things.
While it's fairly obvious who you mean from your later comments, let me just state for the record that you can't see added italics in a quoted section.
The result is generally shorter posts (or at least lots of short points in response to a larger post), and that I'm more antagonistic.
Speaking of which:
Sounds good.
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<----Fail.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Actually if anything, that hurts the town, as it would potentially negate a useful town ability by wasting it on Cyan just to confirm his stated ability. It would do nothing to verify his townieness and come Day 2, we'd have to go through the rigamarole of lynching Cyan again, though this time around the day would likely be very short and we wouldn't get any info from it.
Cyan's a valid lynch for today, we can take our time if we want but barring a player jumping up and down saying "I'm Scum! Kill Me!", putting Cyan on the chopping block is probably how this day will end.
As I said, I wasn't thrilled with the soft claim, but the information was already out there. There was no longer a reason for me to be opposed to it. If the scum could gain advantage from it, they would have.
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
I'm at work now so I can't post now, but I will get back to it tonight.
First Numegil comming up as town shouldn't be that much of a suprise however CC nailed it on the exact quoting. And if I am correct SomeOne, Cyan, DYH and Jqlgirl were all voting for him (And in that order too.) Mental noted. Onto the posts:
This is a good point i'll have to look back and confirm, but I remember Cyan always had something to say about something.
Just because you don't want to talk about it dosen't mean there wasen't anything going on.
So an ability where we cannot confirm you with any actions.. yay us?
/bard Ced here. I feel Jqlgirl's reasoning for numegil was very weak at best. WHY NOT ask for a prod?
Yes based on the info I collect (and just that info) Cyan is clearly scum. CLEARLY. However I was taking into the effect of the "what if's" I mean could someone who plays as scum really post the same way twice? (WIFOM I know but it made my head scratch.)
And i'll post what I have on DYH here as well using the same mesurements:
DYH’s contribution of Mafia Games
This game:
Game started 02/06/09 - 02/10/09
Posted a whopping 37 times!
DYH is ??
Prehistoric Mafia
DYH replaced in on 08/12/2008 – 08/16/2008 (Day 2)
Posted 10 posts
DYH was town. (Ironically nailing Cyan from the start.)
Harry Potter Maifa
Game started 03/27/08 – 03/31/2008
Posted only 4 times.
DYH was Mafia.
“Beserk” Mafia
DYH replaced in on 08/07/2008 – 08/11/2008 (Day 1)
Posted 5 times.
DYH was Town.
Doomsday Mafia
Game started 08/20/2008 – 08/24/2008
DYH Posted Once.
DYH was Town.
Smalltown Mafia
Game started 09/20/2008 – 09/24/2008
DYH posted 3 times.
DYH was Scum.
I really have no idea how to make of this.. DYH is showing activity that in my findings (remember first page only) that is really inconsistant for him being both town OR mafia..
My name has nothing to do with the misunderstanding, it was in my actual role PM. The wrong company I belonged too was in my PM.
I don't like your number 3 here. It's all WIFOM.
This is good stuff. I know I didn't think of all of this. (And your number three is dead on, and yet he didn't/hasen't)
He hasen't answered you, but you are still willing to see him hang before so? That is if anyone else says "Yea we don't need Cyan to answer"..? I dont like this.
Aww carnival, how I miss the caribou. (however you spell it)
Answered.
Why me?
~~~~
As for Cyan, it seems he really is only interested in talking when the topic is about him. There have been several topics here he COULD have responded too (bulldogishly even) and hasen't. (And when he did it was on Numegil of all people who was modkilled..)
Even though my findings of DYH are nothing to really make heads or tails of his actions. Cyan's actions are continuiosly quite and not what I remember Cyan of playing (esp in the beginning of games where we have played).
VOTE CYAN
Frigging word ><
I want to re-read 2 games real quick (prehistoic and FF7) consider this my vote for Cyan.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
CropCircles - 1 (Dagger)
Cyan - 8 (andelijah, Abandon Hope, The Mad Tapper, DYH, goatrevolt, CropCircles, ~Tilde~, ced395)
DYH - 1 (Cubus)
The Mad Tapper - 1 (loran16)
With 18 alive it's 10 to lynch.
Oh really, Sorry was only looking at the beginning. I'll correct it.
~~
See that was real quick:
Prehistoric Scum Cyan went with the flow.
FF7 SK Cyan was biting the hell out of people (Starting with his THIRD post.)
Not everything adds up with Cyan.
VOTE CYAN
SCUM
Cyan
JqlGirl
Cubus
RobRoy
loran16
SERIAL KILLER
andelijah
TOWNFOLK
~Tilde~
Abandon Hope
ced395
Dagger
DYH
goatrevolt
Infinis
Roja
Some One
spotofprey
The Mad Tapper
~insert hidden player~
MOD GIMMICK
CropCircles
^
^
^
^
^
^
Will explain tomorrow.
[The Family]
Salvation Mafia Clan
Mafia Stats
last updated 03/23/11
Huh?
How can you have had two companies listed in your role PM?
The flag under his name says he's in Cuba. I doubt there were caibou involved.
And as has been mentioned in this thread, he was a replacement in that game, so you don't get any sense of his normal start-of-game posting from it. You were in that game as well, so you know this - why are you bringing this up again?
Well, anyway - my thoughts on Cyan now. It's indisputable that he's been posting far less than he normally has. This has been compounded by the fact that he has apparently been reading along with the thread, since he's posted in fairly short order when he was called out for it, but he never mended his ways to provide content until the wagon boiled up. I also think that ced395 made a good point here that Cyan never told us that he was making a decision to alter his playstyle until well after he was under suspicion for it. All of this means that I have no reason to want him to stay alive, especially since we will never really have more information about him than we do now - I don't doubt that he's actually untargetable, so I don't see any point in verifying that aspect of his role.
The only thing keeping this from being an outright endorsement of his death is the rest of the wagon. There are several people on it that I have doubts about, most recently CropCircles. Abandon Hope has been posting minimally and goatrevolt appears to have taken a job that pays him to be wishy-washy. However, there are also several people I'm dubious about who aren't on the wagon (JqlGirl, loran16) so that balances out. I'd like to (at a minimum) give spotofprey time for his promised post; give a little more time after that for additional information and last-minute posts, and then I'd be okay seeing Cyan swing.
...where have you been? He later clarified his PM was incorrect and that he was actually Marvel.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Yes, I know that. But right here he said that he had the wrong company in his initial PM, and it was based on that that he claimed both DC and Other. Does this mean that his role PM said both DC and Other? How can that be? That's why I want clarification.
I'm well aware - but you can't hold untargetability against someone (unless you want to claim its exclusively a scum ability, which I would disagree with) just because you can't verify their alignment because of it.
Salvation Mafia Clan
Mafia Stats
last updated 03/23/11
On that note, believe I stated before I would feel comfortable with a vote on Cyan, but certainly don't want to end the day prematurely when there is no deadline and the discussion is continuing at a steady pace.
I'd like to point out that a blind mule should've been able to do that.....the game was broken, but some smart saving plays from Kraj and armlx. And i did completely whiff on DV in that same game. Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! I'm soooooo good!
(TMT is still scum btw).
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Um...what? Back this up. Considering your stances as of late, this is quite the hypocritical (and also unsupported) accusation.
Not likely.
Your sidekick theory is wrong.
--------
I'm still interested in seeing Cyan hang. And I'm not a believer in the philosophy that longer days are strictly better for the town. If we're extending the day to specifically hear from certain people, that's fine. If we're doing it simply because there's no deadline, so there's no rush, then I'd suggest we stop. Not all discussion is helpful, and excessively long days can just muddy the water.
Just how you initially thought on Cyan was that he was town, and then when more and more people started expression opinions to the contrary, you changed your mind?
Almost certainly. Just like Grimclaw and Xyre were in Seinfeld mafia.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
...and that loran guy too, right?
No. You Fail. Way to Miss the Joke.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
So who do you support the lynch of instead? Do you think anyone else at this point has more evidence to support their lynch than Cyan?
Salvation Mafia Clan
Mafia Stats
last updated 03/23/11
Elaborating will kill the joke (I actually just went back and noticed like 4 players in the mafia community that still play here might actually remember seinfeld....so it was rather poor. DYH is one of them though, so he might get it.) You'd have to look at my play, their play and days 2 and 3 (Xyre and grim respectively) to understand it.
It's funny to me. And maybe DYH.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
This comes off as extremely defensive aka suspicious. You don't advocate the lynch of Cyan because there is "not enough evidence" at the same time you don't advocate any other player's lynch or feel there has been enough evidence gathered to build a case against another player. This is especially suspicious considering the fact that if you legitimately thought Cyan was town, wouldn't you find some of his attackers suspicious (such as DYH, for example)?
What made me think he was making a case? It was there. I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Roja didn't have to draw a conclusion from the facts for it to be a case, which seems to be your premise.
Next time you want an answer, restating the question would be cool.
Cyan was here and didn't bother to say anything further in his defense. That should tell you all you need to know about this lynch. He's not offered any opinion on who is scum - other than his attackers, of course - and he's ensuring he doesn't slip up with anything else at this point. It's time for him to die.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Cyan played how I would've played it if I was untargetable. Basically he was trying to avoid the very situation we have now. His unagressive play, which it was, set off the alarms of many of you, before his claim.
Cyan also stated that discussing his own wagon wouldn't get him anywhere. He was right since his wagon only got stronger the more explanations he provided.
His argument Elastagirl is obviously town is bad logic. As has been pointed out, we do not know if false claims have been provided, we don't know if anyone can be deemed obvious town or scum based on a name claim.
Cyan tried to point out alternate suspects, DYH IIRC, but momentum had taken hold of his wagon.
At this point we would have to start nearly from scratch if anyone but Cyan is lynched. I don't think there is enough "Cyan is town evidence" to warrant sparing him. Fence sitting aside I think he was railroaded by meta-game analyis and based purely on his in game play he hasn't earned my vote yet.
On a seperate note, I was not anti-soft-claim.
@goatrevolt I think most of us can see by now my side kick theory is dead. I was just reviewing the facts and realized I was forcing the facts to fit the theory. Especially now when a much better theory is now germinating in my mind.
12-11? I'm losing track
TMT scans Infinis's post with his trusty townometer. The needle buries itself in the "This post is terrible" range. Quickly, he grabs another FoSium grenade.
There's not enough "'Cyan is town evidence' to warrant sparing him", but he hasn't earned your vote? If you were town, you would be more concerned with evidence that he's scum than you would evidence that he's town. A true hero would never just let someone swing because they haven't proven themselves to be town. Then again, if you were his scumbuddy I would expect less wishy-washy and more bus. My heroic instincts tell me something is terribly wrong with your fence-riding here. I read two possible things from this post:
1) Cyan is town, you are scum or neutral, you don't want to fight the mislynch, but you want to be able to say "look, I refused to vote the townie!".
2) Cyan is scum, you are neutral, you don't want to risk bandwagoning on a townie, but you also don't want to risk having avoided a wagon on a scum.
I think 2) is more likely, since I still believe Cyan to be scum, but either way I think you're a good place to start tomorrow. Take this!
FoS Infinis
Record: 3-2
Simpsons Mafia (Newbie) - Vanilla Mafia - Win
The Fiasco Corporation - Town Reporter - Loss
Doomsday Mafia - Mafia Roleblocker - Win
Battle Royale Mafia - Serial Daykiller - Loss
Danger City Mafia - Vanilla Town - Win
I CAN DIE HAPPY IF YOU ARE SPACEMAN SPIFF :link::link::link::link::link::link:
[The Family]
Other random observations-
I'm not sure what RobRoy is getting heat for - soft claim procedure semantics? Doesn't seem like something to get all fired up for.
I appreciate andelijah's posting style - it may be less transparent, but it is a hell of a lot easier to read and follow than the Paragraph Crusades that some people tend to enjoy.
I'm not that surprised by the modkill - Ged said he was taking participation seriously, and letting in a replacement after that firm of a stance would invalidate the entire reasoning for it in the first place.
I'm not a real fan of Abandon Hope. I'm not trying to flame or make a personal attack, but you post like an angry-drunk version of Chamber. It really doesn't help anyone and wastes time when people need to ask for a follow up.
I'm not that surprised by so many "other" claims. My own role is someone I've never heard of, and never heard of the source material.
Sorry again to Ged and everyone for losing track of time. DYH vs. Cyan sucked me in and I lost all sense of time.
Roja:
I wasn't against the soft claim idea. It usually stirs up discussion (not the claims themselves, but someone saying something stupid regarding them) and I feel they give very little advantage to the scum.
Wow, talk about a scummy post trying to justify getting onto a wagon when he knows someone will come up town. Especially coming from someone that was nowhere to be seen until my wagon esentially became a foregone conclusion. Give me a break.
A)I never 'flailed'. I made the same arguments all day, and no one listened.
B)I like the part where you say that you think my wagon has on substance, and that my claim is a big point for me, and then mike a minor addendum of 'but he flailed a little bit' and 'conclude' that you're ready to vote me. Get real.
Unvote, Vote Spotofprey
If you guys don't realize that this post is nothing but a scum trying to look good preemptively when he lynches a townie, then, I don't know what to tell you.