MTG Salvation

Quote from ~Tilde~

Fact: Ged provided us each of us a link regarding our character in our PM's.
Supposition based on that - Each of us likely have some sort of Wikipedia entry.

Fact: Infinis publicly theorized that we were all sidekicks, presumably solely based on his role PM and what he thought Cubus' role was.
Supposition based on that - All the information given so far (the opening scene, Cubus' claim of Rorschach, my own role) has indicated that we are all characters from comic books/graphic novels and the like, therefore if Infinis is a sidekick, most likely he would be on that list of comic book sidekicks. The two listed don't fit his soft claim, and I personally can't think of one that would.

Result is that something about Infinis is wrong in my opinion and that's vote-worthy.

Fact:

So essentially, you're just choosing to ignore evidence that doesn't fit your theory?

Quote from Infinis

You stated that "I got" Cubus to claim, which to me implies I coerced or forced him in someway. A total misrepresentation of what went on.

Infinis you DID get Cubus to claim.. Granted you were not hounding him for info however the end result is Cubus's identiy revealed. (I like the word identity, it fits with the theme of this game..)

You didn't coerce him, you did get him to eventually say who he was.

And who did I move on to? I don't recall posting my thoughts about anyone else except in response to your misrepresentation of what went on between Cubus and me.

Your statement here:

Quote from Infinis

Unvote, because I forgot to. And we shall see about the pronoun game.

Implys to me that you are focusing on whether or not Jqlgirl was wrong about her claim. This was right after you "dropped" your theory. And you are right you really haven't posted your thoughts on anyone else.. care to?

I did not talk of disguises you brought it up seemingly out of nowhere. A wrong PM could be possible but I thought it quite strange you made such a commotion about it without clearing it quietly with the mod and then announcing there could be PM errors. It's a perfect defense for someone later in the game,

Like I said in my prior post, Ced's comment seemed to be overlooked and I wanted to bring attention to it.

Once again i'll say my PM was wrong, when I filled out the info about myself it was correct with my PM however that was wrong. What would you have me do in this case? Once I noticed it was wrong, I PMed the host, warned others that there could be something wrong with their pms and when I got confirmation I posted it here. What else was I to do?

For Example "Oh did I claim Z/Male/Other, well I'm the Zebra which is definitely a DC hero. Must be another mod error like what happened to Roja. Sorry I didn't notice sooner."

If it was another error it was another error, however waiting until NOW to say something I would question it.

Quote from JqlGirl

And honestly, if Numegil is town and he was to be lynched, I'd rather lose an inactive town player like him than an active one like Cyan (if he's town) or yourself (if you're town).

Reguardless of what they are? Not all town are treated equaliy.

Quote from Cyan

What do you want from me? I still don't really feel like there is anything to talk about. RobRoy was being discussed for awhile, but as I said, I think he's just misguided, not scum.

Well what do you wanna talk about then? If we arn't on the right topic that is..

Quote from andelijah

How many comic book companies are there?

Here. Have fun. Very few of those would have published things that most people know about, but I've read comics from at least a dozen of those.

Quote from andelijah

I'm actually nitpicking the entire post, but the one line allows a more direct response. You come back making a post discussing Cyan's wagon that has no useful analysis without knowing Cyan's alignment (you specifically depend several factors on Cyan's alignment). You have no arguments on other players in the abstract, nor do you seem to have an actual opinion on Cyan. Essentially, you made several points that won't matter until, at the soonest, tomorrow. And that's if Cyan turns up dead, which you don't seem to be pushing for.

Is it just me, or is this you being annoyed that I played the game? I provided opinions and analysis. I told you where I stood on things. I'm sorry that I didn't go and attack someone, but based on the analysis I did I wasn't convinced that anyone was worth going after yet, and I'm not going to attack someone for no reason.

At this point, two of the three people that I'd asked for followup from have posted. Once Dagger weighs in I'll have more to say.

Quote from ~Tilde~

Fact:

Leaving aside the fact that ~ trails off in the middle of his post, the post just seems poorly rooted. I don't doubt that (real or fake) Infinis can produce a name of a sidekick for his claim if needed - it would be an act of utter stupidity to make the posts he has otherwise. And if I assume that then ~'s argument is left with... nothing.

Quote from Roja

Infinis you DID get Cubus to claim.. Granted you were not hounding him for info however the end result is Cubus's identiy revealed. (I like the word identity, it fits with the theme of this game..)

You didn't coerce him, you did get him to eventually say who he was.

That doesn't really seem fair. Infinis was fishing, yes - he was trying to obliquely get a name from someone else. However, he was trying to get one from anyone else - anyone other than Cubus. I don't think he should be to blame for Cubus giving his name. But feel free to attack him for the fishing.

Quote from Cubus

FWIW: I probably would've claimed my name before the end of today anyway.

Is that "For what it's worth?"

And why?

During my research on DYH I did stumble on one more game with Cyan in it. (I am really only looking for games on the front page.)

It is only worth posting as it dosen't fit the mold of the other info I provided.

The game is Battle Royal Mafia
Game started 01/09/2009 – 01/12/2009 (4 days)
Cyan posted 15 times
Cyan was Scum in this game and died night 1.

Quote from loran16

Incidentally, I'm just finishing my recap and saw this again. Ande did you ever reread Numegil's post? Thoughts on it?

Yes, and none, really. It's either a scum saying "I refuse to participate" or a townie saying he has no idea what's going on. I personally find the second more likely.

Quote from RobRoy

Here. Have fun. Very few of those would have published things that most people know about, but I've read comics from at least a dozen of those.

I did not realize there were so many, but CropCircles more or less hit the point I was trying to make.

Is it just me, or is this you being annoyed that I played the game? I provided opinions and analysis. I told you where I stood on things.

You told me where you stood on every player depending on one other player's alignment. And you did not comment on that player - which means you provided information of where you will stand tomorrow if Cyan is dead, but otherwise almost nothing.

Dark Horse, Valiant, Image...ahh the memories of not even trying to get laid. Hey I was happy and blissfully ignorant...

@Roja I said I was going to look into the pronoun troubles that were spoken of. I do recall there was mod action in the matter so I thought it bore further review. I did not say fos JqlGirl or anything about her play. I wanted to see for myself what went on. I did not go after anyone after "backing off" Cubus.

@Tilde Really? That's what you've come up with? Attacking me with the same logic that I built my theory upon? And on top of that we don't know that Cubus is Rorschach, no one counterclaimed him, but it's a null tell since as has been pointed out, there are many possibilities that fit with the soft claims. I have no reason to doubt or believe Cubus' claim.

MOD, Can we get a prod on Goatrevolt? He hasn't posted in 6 days. Grazi.

Step step step. The sound of footsteps echoes through the hall, interrupted only by the faint sound of voices in argument. Step. Step. The debate dims as the steps move deeper into the mansion, and each perfectly polished black shoe lands with a greater sound. Paintings of the rich and powerful line the walls of this beautiful mahogony tunnel that dims in the distance. Step. His arms cradle the flower-filled vase like a babe; he is delicate yet firm, like a grandfather. On he goes, until his steps are a deafening roar against the background of an abyssal nothing.

Alfred turns. There's the sound of a door opening.

Step.

...

It falls, tips. Turns to its side and flips. Water drips from the top. A few petals drift up and away from it as the vase

*CRRRSSH*tinkletinkle*

shatters.

...

"Excuse me ladies and gentlemen." Alfred has returned, and there's no trace of the hidden smile he usually carries with him. "I've found... someone."

The hall doesn't sound so loud with this many people walking down it. It's somehow less heavy. But there's no mistaking the sense of dread and worry that weighs on the group as they march to the vase's room. A maid steps out of a doorway with the broken pieces of the vase JqlGirl had tried to steal earlier, and the room inside is revealed. In the corner lies the slumped body of Numegil with a peaceful smile on his face. He's dead and with no apparent cause of death. Maybe it was all just too much for him, or perhaps this was a case of death by irony...

Numegil, AKA Bluntman (townie), has been modkilled for inactivity.

Back to business, heroes. Just because one of you gave up hope doesn't mean you all should.

As a side note, Goatrevolt has been prodded.

Cropcircles, now that nume is dead, can you explain what you were going to talk about regarding numegil? You said you'd wait utnil numegil responded before talking, but that you had some reason why you didn't agree with a wagon on him.

Quote from ced395

RobRoy: In your post about the Cyan wagon, you mention that you would have joined the Cyan wagon, had you had certain information from Battle Royale mafia at the time. You also say that your current opinion of Cyan isn't worth a vote. Has anything changed between the time when the Cyan wagon was in full swing, and now to make your opinion of Cyan change, or is this all related to the size of the wagon?

Quote from andelijah

You told me where you stood on every player depending on one other player's alignment. And you did not comment on that player - which means you provided information of where you will stand tomorrow if Cyan is dead, but otherwise almost nothing.

Quote from RobRoy

At this point, two of the three people that I'd asked for followup from have posted. Once Dagger weighs in I'll have more to say.

.

Robroy, earlier in the game you mentioned there was a misetings game where there was confusion over claiming. Can you link me to that game?

Now that our excellent diversion has turned up town, can we go back to Cyan? That would be spectacular.

TOWN:
AH
ced395
Cubus
loran16
Infinis

PROBABLY TOWN;
Roja
Andelijah



LEANING TOWN :
Cyan
JqlGirl
CropCircles

MIDDLE OF THE ROAD:
Dagger
Goatrevolt
RobRoy
Some One
~Tilde~

LEANING SCUM (from least scummy to most):
DYH
Spotofprey

SCUM:
The Mad Tapper


VOTE THE MAD TAPPER Reasoning coming shortly.

It is unfortunate that Numegil was just a noob who wasn't replaced (he hadn't posted on the site since the 13th, so it's not like he was active elsewhere), but what interests me the most at the moment is that DYH and Cyan both voted for Numegil. I'm not really sure what this means, and I want to re-read their votes to try to decipher the mystery as to how both of their votes managed to get on Numegil simultaneously.

Incidentally ignore my least scummy to most scummy bit, it came from an earlier version of the list when i had 2 other players in the leaning scum category.

Quote from Some One

It is unfortunate that Numegil was just a noob who wasn't replaced (he hadn't posted on the site since the 13th, so it's not like he was active elsewhere), but what interests me the most at the moment is that DYH and Cyan both voted for Numegil. I'm not really sure what this means, and I want to re-read their votes to try to decipher the mystery as to how both of their votes managed to get on Numegil simultaneously.

EBWODP: Some One, how many times did you have to edit this post before you posted it? In other words, how many times did you write something, delete it and rephrase yourself before coming up with the above paragraph. An estimate would be fine, but try to be exact.

Quote from Andelijah »

Now that our excellent diversion has turned up town, can we go back to Cyan? That would be spectacular.

Based on Cyan's behavior (or rather, lack thereof) thus far in game, I'd be tempted to agree with you. But when I look at that post and sound it out in my head, I get the definite impression that you're trying to force the issue.

Quote from Some One

It is unfortunate that Numegil was just a noob who wasn't replaced (he hadn't posted on the site since the 13th, so it's not like he was active elsewhere), but what interests me the most at the moment is that DYH and Cyan both voted for Numegil. I'm not really sure what this means, and I want to re-read their votes to try to decipher the mystery as to how both of their votes managed to get on Numegil simultaneously.

I would love to know why you only care about this after Numegil came up town. Or why you want to look back at them instead of your own case.

Quote from ~Tilde~

Based on Cyan's behavior (or rather, lack thereof) thus far in game, I'd be tempted to agree with you. But when I look at that post and sound it out in my head, I get the definite impression that you're trying to force the issue.

Yea, well if I don't people start voting for others, like Numegil.

@Loran - I have no idea, quite frankly, but the point is that I wanted to take the following:


...and analyze it to the best of my ability.

Jql is consistant with her approach throughout, although I am not sure if her vote to "get Numegil to speak" is done with the best of intentions. She said things such as "I always come of as scummy" and "No, I am not excusing myself from scum-hunting, just saying that I really don't have much of a sense for what to look for on Day 1 yet. Mafia is a hard game at the best of times, and Day 1 isn't the best of times, though it does offer the most forgiveness if the town makes a mistake. All I'm saying here is that I'm not prepared to jump onto someone's D1 lynch without some decent arguments against them, most because I've been on the wrong end of a day 1 lynch twice as a townie, and it's not a fun experience." I would put Jql as "leaning scum" and really want to keep an eye on her because an "Akid-style" player who has the need to make that information known during the beginning stages of the game worries me. For example, she says she has been lynched incorrectly on day one, at the same time she admits she plays what can be seen as scummy, but how come she hasn't changed her behavior? Why does she consistently act scummy, especially when she knows it? Perhaps, she is actually scum and plans to hide behind this "style" she has created for herself but built the facade slightly incorrectly by being open about it.

DYH and Cyan both seem opportunistic in their approaches to voting for Numegil. DYH is more opportunistic at the same time he is less opportunistic because while he FoSes Numegil several posts before voting for him, he is the 3rd person after Cyan to be voting for him. I use the word "opportunistic" because DYH FoSes Numegil, then discusses how although he feels Cyan is scum, and is sick of arguing with him, and then votes for Numegil after Cyan has already voted for him. However, it makes some sense; DYH thought Cyan was scum, and probably found Cyan's jump on Numegil to be opportunistic because he just had a vote on Dagger. One thing I do want to know is if DYH thought Cyan was bussing Numegil. We now know that Cyan was certainly not bussing Numegil, and I can guess Cyan and DYH also read Numegil as noob scum. As a result of both of them probably reading Numegil as noob scum, their actions seem justified from a townie's perspective. However, they (we) were wrong, but it seems that's more of Numegil's fault than anyone else's.

On the contrary, looking at it from a perspective where they are NOT both town, it could also be possible Cyan is scum and jumped on the opportunity to vote for easiest target (hence an opportunistic vote) and DYH as town, felt Cyan was bussing Numegil. DYH, as scum, in addition to scum Cyan, would have just picked the easiest townie to masterfully turn the focus to, and thus, end the conflict between DYH and Cyan. However, if Cyan is town and DYH is scum, DYH could have planned the "give up on Cyan" by putting some pressure on Numegil and formatting his subsequent posts just correctly whereby he would be justified in his approach for dropping his case on Cyan and jumping on Numegil's wagon. It is certainly a bold move for DYH to make, and could make sense. Sadly, everything seems as though it makes sense.

My head hurts from delving into all this logic, and I don't know how much of it really is anything of value or use, but from it, I was able to conclude that pursuing Cyan and DYH for their behavior in regards to Numegil does not seem as though it would be successful because anything is certainly possible as far as their allignments are concerned. Of the three, I am more inclined to believe Jql is scum, as opposed to Cyan and DYH, because of her odd style and unique approach to presenting herself, and will therefore be re-reading more of her in order to come to a more conclusive result.

@ Andelijah - I made the case that Numegil seemed like noob scum with his post and not one person spoke out against that. I can clearly see I was wrong, however, it took his dead body to tell me I was wrong, and not another player. Did you feel Numegil was not noob scum? If so, why have you elected to say so now as opposed to before?

Quote from Some One

@Loran - I have no idea, quite frankly, but the point is that I wanted to take the following:

Not an answer. Guess how many times. Pick a Number.

Quote from Numegil »

I haven't been participating much because I personally really don't like day one, since we're forced to go with very minimal evidence which could just as likely be someone's mistakes as someone's scumtells. The fact that I've never played with anyone in this game previously certainly doesn't help me figure things out either. When we end up getting close to a lynch, I'll cast my vote for someone if I feel that the arguments against them outbalance the arguments of their defense, however I probably will not be pointing any needless fingers up until then. I do, however, fully support this whole soft-claim business since it gives us a potential (however small) chance to catch scum later, with very very low potential risk to the town. Free information is good.

Quote from numegil »

I don't want to vote for anyone right now (unvote), since I don't feel like there's enough evidence against anyone at the moment. If a bandwagon begins to form against someone, however, I will be happy to join to increase the pressure on them as long as there's a 1-2 vote distance away from them being lynched.

The first post is from this game, the one he was voted for.

The second was from NES Mafia, where he was town.

It is clearly his actual outlook on the game, and a non-tell.

Quote from Some One

@ Andelijah - I made the case that Numegil seemed like noob scum with his post and not one person spoke out against that. I can clearly see I was wrong, however, it took his dead body to tell me I was wrong, and not another player. Did you feel Numegil was not noob scum? If so, why have you elected to say so now as opposed to before?

I did say so before. My problem with you is you're taking a mistake both you and Cyan and DYH made, and are attempting to look back only at the other two. If the vote did not stand out to you before, why should it do so now?

Quote from loran16

Not an answer. Guess how many times. Pick a Number.

I would say I edited 4 parts of the sentence in attempts to make it say what I wanted it to say, but in actuality, I can see it was to no avail.

Quote from CropCircles

It is clearly his actual outlook on the game, and a non-tell.

It's a null-tell, but it still came off scummy as heck. Admittedly, I probably shouldn't have pegged him as scum for saying what he said, but certainly it wasn't wrong to pressure him for having that viewpoint.

Quote from andelijah

I did say so before.

Hmm, reading is in fact, the tech.

My problem with you is you're taking a mistake both you and Cyan and DYH made, and are attempting to look back only at the other two.

Should I look back at myself? I can say I had him pegged as noob scum, and I was wrong. It's time for me to move on, and the first thing I did was analyze the three other players' reactions to the wagon.

If the vote did not stand out to you before, why should it do so now?

What do you mean by "the vote." Are you referring to the players on Numegil's bandwagon? Well, one of the main things is we now know his allignment and can eliminate any scenarios of bussing involved in any player's decision to have voted Numegil. As a result, I would like DYH to answer the question, "Did you think Cyan was bussing Numegil?" It's entirely possible DYH just voted for Numegil in order to pressure him and see where it would go, and didn't actually suspect Numegil of being scum.

If your question is in fact "Why am I caring about those who voted Numegil now as opposed to before?" the answer would be because I like the flow of taking care of one thing at a time. If Numegil was going to respond to the pressure and accusations, I would have liked to have seen that before I started looking at the players and the wagon because it is not like the wagon spiralled out of control and it is not like I felt the players on the wagon were on the wagon because of any unreasonable circumstances.

Yeah, lets force the issue. The Numegil result hasn't made Cyan look any better.

A shout from the other side of the room startles our intrepid hero. loran16 is pointing menacingly, accusingly. TMT opens his mouth to object, only to find that loran16 has suddenly brushed off the previous post, turning his attention elsewhere. Our hero scratches his head, wondering what prompted the sudden outburst. Perhaps time will tell.

The plot thickens a little farther to the left, where pressure mounts on RobRoy to answer the questions that have been leveled at him. He remains stoic, however, indicating that he will elucidate further once the mysterious figure known as Dagger has returned. Who is this Dagger character, and what secret does he hold that has RobRoy so concerned? Our hero is left to wonder, and to wish he had grabbed one more cookie before he left the kitchen.

The mysterious figure known as Dagger would be back after he has finished giving his presentation tomorrow and flew back to his hometown.

Quote from Cubus

Why does Numegil's death put Cyan in a bad light, but not DYH? I'm getting the feeling no one's even wanting to actually take a look at his posts.

I think what AH was saying was that Cyan simply doesn't look better with his unvote, vote of dagger, unvote, vote of Numegil. Not saying he looks worse, or more scummy, but just that his reaction to this wagon is null in determining whether Cyan could be town or scum.

Give it up, Cubus. There's a good reason no one's bothering to look at my posts, and it's because I'm so ridiculously blatantly freaking town it's not even funny. And I'm not even remotely kidding.

Yes, I intended to do nothing more than pressure Numegil into actually contributing. I'm pretty sure I said as much and that I would've been voting RR once he (Numegil) actually came and posted something.

However,

Unvote, Vote: Cyan

It appears that I've garnered some additional support from the initial wagon, and there may be enough out there to get to claim range which absolutely should happen. Lynching scum Cyan day one is going to be fantastic.

Parents coming into town today; limited activity through Sunday, but back to normal next week.

@Cubus, DYH is certainly worth looking into (See his position on my list). Something is off here, w/regards to him. ironically however, the reason people wont consider him is the same reason that DYH keeps complaining we wouldn't lynch Cyan day 1....some sort of intimidation factor due to the usual high level play DYH is known for.


TheMadTapper (For the confused, ITP=In Third Person)

#5- Random Vote JqlGirl
#17- Joke back at JqlGirl
50- Talking 3rd person, Jokes with Ande+Tilde.
55- TMT jokingly votes CC for “math”
92-MJ in 3rd person.
99-MJ
125- Responds to Roja’s 119 with some joking.
185- In third person says Someone contradicts himself and votes Some One (-..voting for poor logic)
209-In third person, expresses confusion over AH’s post (and jokes about it too I think)
247-In Third person (ITP from now on), usually opposed to mass claims, but this one doesn’t pose any potential problems for the town. TMT voices his support for the soft claim.
280- ITP, Cyan has been tame and submissive unlike previous town Cyan games TMT has cross-referenced. Votes Cyan.
307- Re: Roja, ITP, claims Roja is fishing.
337- First Person, explains to roja misunderstanding about thinking that Roja had been fishing earlier. Claims to have looked at Doomsday and Fiasco. Explains why he thinks Cyan still seems off from town Cyan. Is wary of TMT but doesn’t see anything worth pressuring at this time.
340- Claims Male/Other/S
381- Re: AH, “Your two sentences explained why you thought it would not help, oh apocalyptic one. But even if flavor and alignment are asynchronous, that is not the only purpose a sub-claim would server. What reason do you have to believe that the town has made an error? Or are you merely feigning indignation to disguise your attempt to thwart our efforts in saving Danger City?”
384- Corrects a typo in 381.
405-ITP thinks Jql is too eager to explain away her vote on the most recent wagon, votes Jqlgirl.
429- ITP wonders why theres all this speculation about Cubus’ rolename.
463- ITP, Claims Cyan continues to post in a non-aggressive fashion, only displaying aggression when responding to accusations of non-aggresssion. Claims Jqlgirl is bandwagoning. Claims Tilde is continuing to attack on bad info. Votes Cyan. (--!, this is a really cruddy post. Cyan has been really aggressive on Dagger, was on Numegil…what do you mean non-aggression? Also, while he commits to a vote, he still brings up two other targets and they’re cruddy easy ones. Very little effort went into this post in terms of actual reading in the thread (Even misidentifies infinis as Roja))

Post 463 is really the thing that puts him as scum in my eyes. The accusation against Cyan is beyond lazy and for the most part untrue at that point (Cyan's past 4 posts at that point were a vote of Dagger, a vote of Numegil, a correction at Tilde and a thought on RR). Only the post on RR could possible be construed as a nonaggressive post really, and it seems rather obvious to me that TMT just recycled the old accusation in order to vote Cyan again. He also includes Tilde and Jql in the same post, and while im not sure of their alignments, it seems like he's keeping his options open on likely lynch targets, as both players are well...so bad in their play i wouldn't be surprised if a wagon followed them at any time (particularly jql).

Plus his other votes in this game have been poor as well (an early one of SomeOne for the DYH vote, a vote of Jql, etc) It just looks like he's trying to get a lynch on easy targets, made up an excuse to rejoin the cyan wagon and is sort of hiding behind is 3rd person "PR" (Which is bunk considering he slips in and out of it.)

Quote from loran16

Robroy, earlier in the game you mentioned there was a misetings game where there was confusion over claiming. Can you link me to that game?

The game is here. WARNING: contains NSFMTGSalvation language, as profanity on MT was basically encouraged rather than discouraged. Read at your own risk.

Quote from Dagger

The mysterious figure known as Dagger would be back after he has finished giving his presentation tomorrow and flew back to his hometown.

Sigh. Well, I wanted to get comments from Dagger on Cyan before I made mine, but I'm not going to wait until Sunday.

Cyan is certainly acting differently than normal. This has persisted well past the point when it was first raised by DYH, and despite him acknowledging the issue. At the point that I made my analysis post on his wagon, I was still undecided on what to make of this, for reasons that I gave there. Since then there have been two things that make me more suspicious of Cyan. One I already addressed: BR ending, and the revelation that his posting habits there were him acting as a townie and not a mafioso. Secondly, his post since I spoke up:

Quote from Cyan

What do you want from me? I still don't really feel like there is anything to talk about. RobRoy was being discussed for awhile, but as I said, I think he's just misguided, not scum.

I dislike the fact that Cyan is still being very quiet. I dislike the fact that he's reading enough to know that he's under scrutiny and is still not making an effort to contribute. I dislike the fact that he can't find anything to talk about or anyone to attack - not normally a failing of his. I'm not yet convinced that he's scum, but I think he has a better chance of being scum than anyone else in the game right now, so:

vote: Cyan.

I've also found several things to dislike about Dagger: the fact that he posted yesterday morning in BR without posting here, despite the fact that I'd asked him for information; the fact that he never followed up on Cyan or Some One; the way he's ducking out on giving his positions here. The only saving grace here is that he was posting opinions barely ten minutes before I made my analysis post, so it is conceivable that he'd posted and figured he was covered for a couple days. The timing in that case is unfortunate. I really wish we could get him in the thread right now, but for now I'll just FOS: Dagger and cast meaningful glances his way.

Quote from ced395

Loran: Why do you think that Cyan's posts that you mentioned in your case were examples of aggression? The Numegil vote is just wagoning, and the Tilde comment is such a null tell for any other purpose that I can't see how it can possibly be used as a town point for Cyan.

Cyan voted Numegil 2nd. Calling that "just wagoning" is a bit premature...while he didn't come up with the original vote (Some One did), calling it wagoning is a bit inaccurate.

Moreover the goatrevolt-daggervote was standard Cyan imo. He often will christen someone with a label of "soobvtownie" (or the like) and then react rather aggressively toward any votes toward those persons. AFAIK, he does this as town and as scum.

(The Tilde bit is standard Cyan.....see Hat mafia....Cyan will always town/scum correct idiocy/Tilde, even if no voting is involved).

The point is, in between the posts of TMT he's accused Cyan of going nonaggressive again, when its not true unless you call his jumping at dagger and nume to be passive. That's pushing it.

Quote from Some One

Should I look back at myself? I can say I had him pegged as noob scum, and I was wrong. It's time for me to move on, and the first thing I did was analyze the three other players' reactions to the wagon.

If you had him pegged as scum, why can't they have as well? The first thing I do after being wrong isn't usually to look back at the people who agreed with me.

What do you mean by "the vote."

It was supposed to be plural, sorry. "the votes" - DYH's and Cyan's.

Quote from Cubus

Why does Numegil's death put Cyan in a bad light, but not DYH? I'm getting the feeling no one's even wanting to actually take a look at his posts.

The difference is that it is on par with most of Cyan's posts while one of the worst of DYH's. Yes I'm curious why DYH would agree with his top suspect so suddenly, but given the rest of his content, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for now.

Prod received. I'm going to start catching up now, but I might have to head out in about 20 minutes, so I can't guarantee a post.

Quote from ced395

It's quite clear that Cyan approached the vote with a wagoning mentality, thus my conclusion.

*eyebrow*. You're stretching. His post there shows the following, 1. He doesn't know how many votes besides SO are on Numegil (a small positive, scum are more likely to check first imo,) and that he likes the reasoning against some one.

Sure he didnt go "NUME IS OBVIOUS SCUM! LYNCH NOW!", but i fail to see how agreeing that someone is worth a vote is necessarily wagoning...when there's no wagon.

. That could possibly be interpreted as scum Cyan thinking "Ok, we've (Cyan/DYH) stopped this quote war, so I'll move into the playstyle I'm accused of not following"

Wait, so now we have a catch 22 here....if Cyan goes into standard Cyan playstyle, he's trying to get away from the meta argument, if he doesn't he's scum for meta reasons.

This is a bad argument in any sense or form. You want to say that Cyan didn't follow his usual town playstyle fine. Maybe i might buy it (I don't but that's beside the point). But this? (For the record, You can make this sort of argument with votes......if you accuse player x of voting PLAYER Y for awful reasons on purpose scummily and then he unvotes suspiciously without acknowledging his original vote was scummy, fine maybe. And even that's going into catch 22 territory again.)

Besides, TMT is claiming that Cyan is being nonaggressive when not called on it, which is not the case with Dagger/Cyan's confrontation.

TMT's argument is bad because it doesn't fit. The two actions Nume and Goat aren't him being unaggressive. Aside from that, the only passive Cyan thing is not posting, which is a terrible tell (RL things are unmeasurable in forums). TMT's argument is just him parroting an earlier claim as an excuse to vote Cyan, when it doesn't even apply.

Quote from Dagger

1. You elaborated on AH's post in #212. That peaked my interest because I have never seen a player explaining the rationale behind another player's post before unprovoked and out-of-the-blue as you did. Furthermore, in that explanation you did not add in your own opinions as I would have expected of anyone elaborating on someone's else post. I interpreted it as you were trying to seem "active" but then it made no sense since you were already quite active.

I don't see why this is really scummy at all. Clarifying someone's post so people understand it is the mark of scum? The only thing I could possibly see as scummy about this is what you said: posts like this can be used to "look active." However, look at the rest of that post. This was me clarifying his stance because people didn't get it amidst a larger post where I'm discussing other topics. And I don't quite believe your statement that you've never seen someone clarify another post before.

On the most basest level, I clarified it because people didn't understand it and I did. On a slightly higher level, I clarified it because I agreed with the point AH was making, and wanted to make it clear so it would be addressed.

Quote from Dagger

2. You were suspicious of DYH "barning" you. Originally, I chalked you up as town based on that because I have seen inexperienced players who are less certain of themselves wondering aloud why would more experienced players keep agreeing with or supporting them unless said experienced players are scums. But then said paranoia I usually attributed to newer players, and the last time I checked, you are not an inexperienced player. I interpreted it as you were conscious of being in the spotlight or fear being given the credit of the soft claims.

If I was worried about being in the spotlight, I wouldn't have brought it up in the first place. How do you think me attacking DYH over that could have possibly resulted in me dropping out of the spotlight? Me making a big deal of DYH barning me just pushes me into the spotlight.

You're essentially suspicious of me for the same reasons I was suspicious of DYH, which is ironic. I attacked DYH because I felt he was unnecessarily throwing my name in the hat with him, possibly for the two reasons I suggested earlier. Furthermore, I recall DYH barning me in HP mafia on a couple of occasions, and it struck me as a similar situation. Him bringing up my name didn't seem natural.

Quote from Dagger

3. You were wavering between Cyan and DYH. You stated uncertainty on both and then provided reasons either could be scum. It felt like you didn't want to commit or to go against either one of them. You gave off a neutral vibe in your opinions on them. I interpreted it as you wanted to give an opinion on the arguments but didn't want to lean one way or the other.

Neutrality as a stance in an argument doesn't really imply neutrality in alignment. I gave an opinion on the arguments. If I wanted to pick a side, I simply would have. Again, what do you think I was trying to gain by being neutral here? I figured someone would probably attack me for not picking a side, it's not like I was attempting to remain unnoticed by this move. What would be my motivation for remaining neutral?

Quote from DYH

I don't have any problem pushing at Numegil, either, as I pretty much blasted his ridiculous post earlier. I hate the fact we typically end up shoving newer players around on Day One, but his lack of contribution is pretty awful.

RobRoy is another one who ruffled my feathers on the re-read, mainly because it feels like he's speaking peripherally about topics, something I referenced earlier as well.

Vote: Numegil

You just finished mentioning how your vote was still on Cyan and you were still interested in his case. In roughly 20 posts, you are now voting for the suspect Cyan is voting for? What changed?

Quote from Andelijah »

You are drawing comparisons with only one possible conclusion (two if you count the null hypothesis). There are no counter-comparisons, nor, as you say, should the comparisons themselves be conclusive. What is your purpose in posting them?

To make my opinion known. Would you have rather me sat on the sidelines and said nothing?

Quote from DYH »

Once Numegil joins the party, my vote will likely be moving to RR

I got the impression you were voting for Numegil based on the "blasting" of his previous ridiculous post. Why would him joining the party absolve your suspicion enough to swap to RR?

Regarding Rorshach: He could be anything. Trying to speculate what role relates to Rorshach is bound to lead to failure.

Quote from ~Tilde~

Fact: Ged provided us each of us a link regarding our character in our PM's.
Supposition based on that - Each of us likely have some sort of Wikipedia entry.

Fact: Infinis publicly theorized that we were all sidekicks, presumably solely based on his role PM and what he thought Cubus' role was.
Supposition based on that - All the information given so far (the opening scene, Cubus' claim of Rorschach, my own role) has indicated that we are all characters from comic books/graphic novels and the like, therefore if Infinis is a sidekick, most likely he would be on that list of comic book sidekicks. The two listed don't fit his soft claim, and I personally can't think of one that would.

Result is that something about Infinis is wrong in my opinion and that's vote-worthy.

Fact:

This is not a solid theory by any stretch of the imagination.

Quote from Cyan

What do you want from me? I still don't really feel like there is anything to talk about. RobRoy was being discussed for awhile, but as I said, I think he's just misguided, not scum.

My recollection of townie Cyan is that he creates things to talk about. What's keeping you from generating discussion?

More to come later tonight.

See once again, here's the thing, and it's the same bull as was made at me in Fairy Tale.

Is Cyan's passivity early normal? Certainly not. Does that make him scum? I don't think you can tell from that....something is off, yes, but in his SCUM games i remember him being aggressive as hell. DYH brought up ONE scum game (Prehistoric). That's a weak meta argument at best.

Different does not equal scummy. And there's been no arguments for Cyan as scum that rely on actual scummy behavior. Just meta. Which is weak as hell.

Quote from loran16

See once again, here's the thing, and it's the same bull as was made at me in Fairy Tale.

Is Cyan's passivity early normal? Certainly not. Does that make him scum? I don't think you can tell from that....something is off, yes, but in his SCUM games i remember him being aggressive as hell. DYH brought up ONE scum game (Prehistoric). That's a weak meta argument at best.

Different does not equal scummy. And there's been no arguments for Cyan as scum that rely on actual scummy behavior. Just meta. Which is weak as hell.

Was this directed at me? I'm going to assume so because it followed my post, and you had already defended Cyan in the post directly above.

Why did my question to Cyan spark this kind of response?

Quote from goatrevolt

Was this directed at me? I'm going to assume so because it followed my post, and you had already defended Cyan in the post directly above.

Why did my question to Cyan spark this kind of response?

Its partly spurred by your talk about your "recollection of townie Cyan is that he creates things to talk about".

Also spurred by Ced's bit earlier and everyone's attacks on Cyan throughout the game. But reading your comment prompted the post.

Quote from loran16

Wait, so now we have a catch 22 here....if Cyan goes into standard Cyan playstyle, he's trying to get away from the meta argument, if he doesn't he's scum for meta reasons.

But... he hasn't. He is still not contributing to the game.

Quote from goatrevolt

To make my opinion known. Would you have rather me sat on the sidelines and said nothing?

If your opinion is that you don't have an opinion (or, even worse, "Here are reasons they are/could be scummy, but I don't think they are scum"), then yes.

Quote from loran16

See once again, here's the thing, and it's the same bull as was made at me in Fairy Tale.

No, there you were being weird. Here he is being scummy.

Is Cyan's passivity early normal? Certainly not. Does that make him scum? I don't think you can tell from that....something is off, yes, but in his SCUM games i remember him being aggressive as hell. DYH brought up ONE scum game (Prehistoric). That's a weak meta argument at best.

Warhammer as well. And I don't think its just a meta argument anymore.

Quote from Some One

It's a null-tell, but it still came off scummy as heck. Admittedly, I probably shouldn't have pegged him as scum for saying what he said, but certainly it wasn't wrong to pressure him for having that viewpoint.

So what makes it wrong for DYH and Cyan to have pressured him?

Quote from DYH

Yes, I intended to do nothing more than pressure Numegil into actually contributing. I'm pretty sure I said as much and that I would've been voting RR once he (Numegil) actually came and posted something.

However,

Unvote, Vote: Cyan

It appears that I've garnered some additional support from the initial wagon, and there may be enough out there to get to claim range which absolutely should happen. Lynching scum Cyan day one is going to be fantastic.

So why didn't you follow up with RobRoy? And why would RR have been your next target over Cyan in the first place?

I disagree with Loran on TMT. I haven't had a problem with any of his posts this game.

Quote from Loran »

Aside from that, the only passive Cyan thing is not posting, which is a terrible tell (RL things are unmeasurable in forums).

He's been posting actively in other games.

Unvote, Vote Cyan

Loran, I think you're correct in that too much weight is being placed on meta. Looking at this game alone, though, I think Cyan is more likely to be scum. I don't buy his explanation that there hasn't been anything to discuss so he's hanging back. There's plenty to discuss, and there's no reason he can't generate discussion himself. His couple of instances of aggression seemed forced, rather than natural, as evidenced by the lack of follow through. He didn't try to convince us that Numegil was scum. He backed off Dagger really early.

Quote from andelijah

But... he hasn't. He is still not contributing to the game.

No, there you were being weird. Here he is being scummy.

Warhammer as well. And I don't think its just a meta argument anymore.

It is a meta argument. Any argument that relies on the player's behavior in comparison to other games, rather than the player's behavior in the game that we're playing is a meta argument. And 2 games even, (though i haven't read Warhammer so i won't bother debating it), is a heavy small sample size compared to the large amount of scum games Cyan has under his belt.

@GR, i disagree on your opinion of Cyan on the numegil vote. Agree on the Dagger vote, though, but Numegil came up really fast after that iirc.

Quote from andelijah

If your opinion is that you don't have an opinion (or, even worse, "Here are reasons they are/could be scummy, but I don't think they are scum"), then yes.

But I did have an opinion. And I did think they had been scummy, but not enough to place a vote. I never said I didn't think they were scum. I said that I wasn't convinced of it. There wasn't enough evidence there.

I mean, what do you want me to say. I'm sorry for not making a post that lives up to your standards of excellence? Making my opinion known is not scummy, and it's better for me to make my opinion known than sit back and say nothing, as you would apparently prefer.

Quote from loran16

It is a meta argument. Any argument that relies on the player's behavior in comparison to other games, rather than the player's behavior in the game that we're playing is a meta argument. And 2 games even, (though i haven't read Warhammer so i won't bother debating it), is a heavy small sample size compared to the large amount of scum games Cyan has under his belt.

They're the more/most recent ones - and even without the meta argument, Cyan's play this game has been severely lacking.

Quote from goatrevolt

I mean, what do you want me to say.

You could save me a lot of hassle and just claim scum.

I'm sorry for not making a post that lives up to your standards of excellence? Making my opinion known is not scummy, and it's better for me to make my opinion known than sit back and say nothing, as you would apparently prefer.

Making your opinion known is not scummy in general, only when your opinion itself is scummy. You apparently like it though, and so we're just going around in circles about it.

Quote from andelijah

You could save me a lot of hassle and just claim scum.

But then I'd be lying.

Quote from andelijah

Making your opinion known is not scummy in general, only when your opinion itself is scummy. You apparently like it though, and so we're just going around in circles about it.

I tried to point out that we were just going around in circles a long time ago. Andelijah's accusation above is absolutely absurd (alliteration...*****es). I'm apparently supposed to realize that my opinion is scummy (based on what criteria?) and then decide to not post it. The only way my opinion would be scummy is if I'm scum. And if I'm scum, and I know my opinion is "Scummy" then I wouldnt post it. So what are you trying to argue? Should I have posted something like this: "Hey guys, I have an opinion on the Cyan/DYH scuffle, but I know someone is going to think my opinion is scummy, so I'm not going to post it."

In essence: I'm only supposed to post my opinion if it's not scummy. My opinion is only scummy if it implies that I'm scum. The only way I would think my opinion is scummy is if I were actually scum.

So yeah, I'm going to keep posting my opinions, regardless of whether or not they meet the Andelijah scale of valid opinions.

Yeeaaahh, loran, the thing is, Cyan's attempts at aggression this game do seem very half-assed. Which suggests he is now trying to play like townie Cyan, but I'm not buying it.

Unvote, Vote Cyan

What's the vote count?

EBWODP: We're at L-3

Quote from CropCircles

Yeeaaahh, loran, the thing is, Cyan's attempts at aggression this game do seem very half-assed. Which suggests he is now trying to play like townie Cyan, but I'm not buying it.

Unvote, Vote Cyan

What's the vote count?

Really CC? No more doubts about DYH all of a sudden?

@GR: Because the Cyan wagon had picked up new members. I've been quite frank about this all along - I believe Cyan is scum. I did not think I was going to get enough support to get him to claim range today, but that looks to have changed. Secondly, RR's questions to CC struck me as rather townie, so I'm feeling a little better about him at the moment. As far as the vote on Numegil is concerned, I seriously had just tired of the initial Cyan quote-war; it was becoming more work than fun. I was trying to prod the inactives into action. That's in the same post I quoted before, I believe.

Quote from loran16 »

Really CC? No more doubts about DYH all of a sudden?

Leading the witness, your honor. (i.e. man, that's a scummy way to phrase that)

Quote from loran16

Really CC? No more doubts about DYH all of a sudden?

Nice misrep.

First of all, no, not "all of a sudden." What I said earlier was that I had doubts, did a re-read, and came to no conclusion either way. In other words, I have neither any particular faith or doubt in DYH. I'm fairly neutral on him at the moment, and that isn't "all of a sudden" at all.

Second, what does DYH have to do with it anyway? The arguement is sound. Even if DYH was scum, it's entirely possible he was bussing. DYH's alignment is, in my eyes, completely independent of Cyan's.