Hmm. I looked for some more games where I wasn't very active initially as town, but I couldn't find any really. And CP is right, I was more active early in Doomsday than I remembered.
So, you got me.I didn't post alot at the beginning of this game. Around post 150, people were STILL talking about Superbad, and there really was no important conversation going on. Then in the span of less than a day where I didn't bother to check the thread, the amount of posts doubled. Your accusation of me lurking here is simply off-base. And, as I have already said, I'm not feeling particularly confident in my mafia ability at this moment.
Obviously saying "you got me" is some sort of concession, but it seemed more like a concession in regards to his very early activity in DD mafia as opposed to "I am scum, lynch me."
Okay, sort of caught up (while in class, of course....).
Thoughts: I don't see Cyan as scum. Do I find his crisis of confidence and humility to be typical Cyan? not really. But it's really not something i can see being faked by scumCyan or talked about by scumCyan. Scumcyan should know that acting his usual way toward this game would be optimum, and would be more antagonistic here like in Post 265. But post 275 IS out of character here and there's really no reason for Cyan to go out of character to defend himself. It serves no purpose except to make DYH's case that he's more acting out of character and thus is not town (which is a flawed argument again, but thats beside the point).
Im not sure who i want to vote instead at the moment, though ced's FOS of some one feels pretty awful. I need to go back more.
Still, if Cyan is scum, I'll eat my Duke-Rolling Stones T-Shirt. And i like that shirt.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Mafia MVP Harry Potter Mafia!
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
If we are pushing Cyan to claim range, I suggest we discuss first on whether we are going to initiate the soft claims plan before the claim threshold is reached. I am in favor of it.
Thus far, Cyan and Some One are the two players that really catch my attention. I'm in favor of a push in either direction.
Speaking of scumtells, you're evidencing some of your own here. You are *much* more aggressive in the early game as scum than as town.
Certain players (as scums) tend to post much more aggressively in retaliation to people calling them out as scums, after trying to slide under the radar harmlessly for a certain period of time. I believe DYH is one such player (Wuffles is one other player that comes to mind). What is your opinion on this?
@Ced: It's pretty simple. In that game, people started acting scummy early, so I called them on it early. There wasn't much 'conviction' in that post because it was a minor point of suspicion.
IIRC, usually a minor point of suspicion would set you off already in your aggressive pursuit, isn't it?
Your point started off strong but completely falls apart for me. I don't see how DYH and Loran going back and forth indicates that they are scumbuddies - its not like they were lobbing softballs to each other.
And in your opinion, which of Cyan's points are strong?
I'll also note, DYH, that in the post where you initially vote me, you plainly state that you're only doing it to get me posting. But really, I think you're just using it as a smokescreen to cover the fact that you were trying to bail out of discussing the soft-claim anymore. You never 'move on' from your arguments as town. I think you just felt overexposed; and didn't want to argue further. You did the same thing with Loran. Like I said already, you are simply not aggressive, not early game at least, as town. But you are as scum, like in the games I already stated.
This point came out of nowhere, and reeked of flailing.
I guess you didn't read the part where I talked about "good points" I felt they both had. For 2 of the best players to have what, at this time, seem to be legitimate tells for the other, I don't doubt the possibility of a scumbuddy war.
Oh, I assumed your previous statement on this was a sarcastic one. I can see now it wasn't. You are proposing the possibility that both of them are scum mates? Based on what Loran and subsequently I, said?
With 19 alive, it's 10 to lynch. Numegil has been prodded. Players (especially those with fewer posts than the mod) are reminded that posting once every 2 days is the accepted minimum posting rate.
Ok I need to re-read and look back on things. (Both on this game and on other games and with Cyan, DYH and games WITH Cyan AND DYH.)
UNVOTE for now.
And I agree with Dagger, if there is any soft claim to be made there should be something set up soon. I don't think there would be much to gain, however I am willing to participate with a subclaim. I guess company, sex, first inital is a good start..
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks goes out to DarkNightCavalier and XenoNinja
@Roja: If I was 'giving up and admitting guilt' with that post, I probably wouldn't have bothered with..all of the rest of the post.
'You got me' is a phrase I use sarcastically sometimes, when I'm 'conceding' something that doesn't actually matter. Which is exactly the case here.
@DYH:
Just so we're clear, I'm still in full-support of the soft-claim. I've said as much multiple times, and indicated that I'm not changing my mind unless someone can show me how it's going to hurt. I don't think there's any way I could "lessen my role" in this - I've got about 20 posts on that issue alone today, I believe. As I stated to Cyan, my arguments for the soft-claim are there - I just felt you did a better job with the explanation as to why it's beneficial.
Nice job not acknowledging the fact that multiple examples where provided where you do this AS SCUM, but not AS TOWN, and instead just trying to talk about the soft-claim again. You did the exact same thing, to me, in Greenwood. Too bad for you I was actually scum there and could just NK you, so I didn't need to get into one of these fights with you about it.
I love the fact that, *again*, if you find something that I have done ONCE as scum, it's some voteworthy tell. But when people point out that you're doing the same things that you do as scum..oh then it doesn't count. Way to be consistent.
The proof is there, like I already said. Multiple examples have been provided.
As for Cyan admitting my case is valid, he can't argue the point I made against him because I'm right. He's finally said as much. The question you need to ask yourself now is: Is this how scum Cyan plays?
Oh, you appear to be confused. I am absolutely *not* admitting that your case is valid. It isn't. I 'admitted' that you're correct that I A)usually post alot, B)didn't post alot early in Prehistoric and C)didn't post alot early here. But that's not a case, sorry. Something is not a 'tell' if it's happened one other time ever out of a ton of instances(I've been scum alot).
As for 'is that how scum Cyan plays', I'd say you are defeating your own argument now. In the multitude of games where I was scum, you found ONE INSTANCE where my behavior was similar to this one. One. That pretty emphatically shows that it was an abberation, and thus, you have no case here whatsoever.
Cyan's whole advantage as a town player is that he's very polarizing - he gets in people's faces, he antagonizes them to the point of utter frustration sometimes, but what it does is draw massive reactions. If he's not out doing that, he's not playing his town game. It's really quite simple.
I do the same thing when I'm scum. Are you just never going to acknowledge all of the examples that disprove your theory here? I had not yet had the CHANCE to do so yet here. I latch onto people, not general conversations. Whenever discussions regarding mass-claiming etc. come up, my reaction is always the same; to be resolutely opposed. Just like I was in this game. And you're understating my opposition, because I already said the same thing that I'm saying now, and nothing else really needed to be said. I didn't find much to be suspicious of(other than you, and I've already explained why I didn't point it out immediately) in the people discussing it, so, there was no one to go after. But there is you. I have acted towards you, in this game, the same way that I act towards you in every game. We had this exact conversation in TFC(you know, another game where I was town and you were scum).
More than just that, though, is the subject he was specifically avoiding - one he's tried to turn back on me. Soft-claims. Rather than have to commit an opinion on the subject, I imagine he was hoping it would blow over quickly enough he wouldn't have to cement himself into a position. When he was called out for it, he made a pretty general "I don't like soft-claims".
Have you ever seen town Cyan be so passive about a hot topic? I haven't.
This is almost entirely fabrication. I am typically passive about 'hot topics'. Go find some other times where people wanted a mass-claim and I was opposed to it. My reaction is always the same in simple opposition. And I committed my opinion. I was opposed, and I still am. There's not much more to say on it.
Certain players (as scums) tend to post much more aggressively in retaliation to people calling them out as scums, after trying to slide under the radar harmlessly for a certain period of time. I believe DYH is one such player (Wuffles is one other player that comes to mind). What is your opinion on this?
I disagree with this. DYH is simply more aggressive on the whole as scum, not just 'in retaliation'.
IIRC, usually a minor point of suspicion would set you off already in your aggressive pursuit, isn't it?
While this is somewhat true, it is NEVER true in the case of DYH. DYH and I have played a ridiculous # of games together. I know what works against him and what doesn't. Pointing out things to him that you are minorly suspicious of makes him pay alot more attention, and makes it harder to catch him. You have to really let him hang himself. I've had this argument w/ him multiple times(go read TFC, for example). This is particularly relevant early in the game because DYH has a tremendous tendency to bus a scum buddy early.
Oh, I assumed your previous statement on this was a sarcastic one. I can see now it wasn't. You are proposing the possibility that both of them are scum mates? Based on what Loran and subsequently I, said?
Yes, I see it as a possibility, but am uncertain of how probable. I would like to parouse a couple games they played in attempt to decipher the mystery. Thus far, I only looked through FFVII where Cyan seemed pretty active early on, so at this time, I don't know what his inactivity early on would be representative of.
That's not really relevant, because that post was a response to DYH's questions. Why did you try and bring it in?
Because you called me out for fence-sitting and I supported my uncertainty with the reasons I previously cited.
This feels like a backtrack on your previous statement of suspicion. Here, you're saying that them being scumbuddies is merely an option, whilst here: you're saying that they're "probably scum buddies", which I'm interpreting as quite a different level of suspicion.
Because the "probably" relied on a prediction that currently seems false. The battle between DYH and Cyan has neither been longer nor epicer than the battle between DYH and Loran. That doesn't mean it won't turn out to be as long or as epic, but thus far, it hasn't.
Nice job not acknowledging the fact that multiple examples where provided where you do this AS SCUM, but not AS TOWN, and instead just trying to talk about the soft-claim again. You did the exact same thing, to me, in Greenwood. Too bad for you I was actually scum there and could just NK you, so I didn't need to get into one of these fights with you about it.
I'm confused, as it reads now I see "this looks exactly like a game where I was scum and you were town"... which I believe is the point he's making.
Oh, you appear to be confused. I am absolutely *not* admitting that your case is valid. It isn't. I 'admitted' that you're correct that I A)usually post alot, B)didn't post alot early in Prehistoric and C)didn't post alot early here.
Or in Warhammer - I think the point is that it is a recent trend.
This is almost entirely fabrication. I am typically passive about 'hot topics'. Go find some other times where people wanted a mass-claim and I was opposed to it. My reaction is always the same in simple opposition. And I committed my opinion. I was opposed, and I still am. There's not much more to say on it.
You didn't respond while the discussion was going on, but after it.
I'm confused, as it reads now I see "this looks exactly like a game where I was scum and you were town"... which I believe is the point he's making.
DYH was scum in Greenwood.
My alignment in that game is not relevant for this point, as I am providing trends in DYH's behavior, to conclude with how, in this game, he is clearly acting like he typically does as scum. He did the same thing in TFC. And HP, like Goat said. And Court Mafia. Etcetera. In Prehistoric, where he was town, he acted completely differently. You, of all people, ought to know that one.
Or in Warhammer - I think the point is that it is a recent trend.
I had plenty of posts in WH2K, I just didn't say much in them. That is not the accusation that is being made here. Besides, I was scum in Battle Royale and acted like my normal self. And in FF7. So no, there is no 'trend'.
You didn't respond while the discussion was going on, but after it.
This might be a relevant point if I posted and just went along with the majority. But being opposed to the idea is clearly the minority opinion here, unfortunately..so I can't really see what point you are trying to make here.
Why? Is there something wrong with me saying that there have been good points from either side and then backing it up?
Frankly, I'm not convinced either are scum. I think DYH has exhibited signs that I associate with his scum play, but at this point in time I don't think it's really all that conclusive. Cyan, likewise, has been playing more like how I've seen him as scum, but again not really conclusive.
I'd like both you and Dagger to explain why you are suspicious of my stance here.
Should this somehow make your argument more certain to be true?
No. Why would you even ask this? I think my argument speaks for itself.
Also, there's no room in the custom title for the closing parenthesis.....stupid custom title character limit.
Of note btw is that i mostly withdraw my bit about ced's post. I still think it's misguided, but i forgot he made an action earlier that i think is pretty likely to be town.
Time to look back.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Mafia MVP Harry Potter Mafia!
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
I was going to call Roja out on that ridiculous vote. But I see that's been done. A lot.
Quote from goatrevolt »
Frankly, I'm not convinced either are scum. I think DYH has exhibited signs that I associate with his scum play, but at this point in time I don't think it's really all that conclusive. Cyan, likewise, has been playing more like how I've seen him as scum, but again not really conclusive.
At this point in the game nothing is conclusive. So do some weighing and get off the fence. I find this sort of spectating very suspicious.
At this point in the game nothing is conclusive. So do some weighing and get off the fence. I find this sort of spectating very suspicious.
I've weighed in on the discussion. I've provided my opinions and backed them up. Nowhere in the Book of How a Townie Aught to Play does it say I have to choose either Cyan or DYH here.
After TMT finishes his work, he sets off to join the rest of the town. No sooner than he closes the secret passage, he hears footsteps coming down the hall. It's Roja! And he appears to be looking for our intrepid hero. Thinking fast, he ducks behind a decorative bush and waits for Roja to pass. He pulls out his trusty pencil and notepad and jots a small note next to Roja's name:
No. Why would you even ask this? I think my argument speaks for itself.
If the argument spoke for itself you wouldn't have to make ultimatums, especially out of game ones that we can't (and shouldn't be able to) make you follow up on.
I'm confused, as it reads now I see "this looks exactly like a game where I was scum and you were scum as well but I didn't know that at the time"... which I believe is the point he's making.
Fixed, and the conclusion is the same. At least partially.
My alignment in that game is not relevant for this point, as I am providing trends in DYH's behavior, to conclude with how, in this game, he is clearly acting like he typically does as scum. He did the same thing in TFC. And HP, like Goat said. And Court Mafia. Etcetera. In Prehistoric, where he was town, he acted completely differently. You, of all people, ought to know that one.
I'd have to reread Harry Potter to try and remember why I thought DYH was scum there, but having never even voted him other than that game (I think), I'm not sure why I should know his scum behavior.
I had plenty of posts in WH2K, I just didn't say much in them. That is not the accusation that is being made here.
I'm not so sure of that, but I'm not really in the mood for counting.
Besides, I was scum in Battle Royale and acted like my normal self.
Didn't read that thoroughly. But it didn't work too well, did it?
And in FF7. So no, there is no 'trend'.
Unlynchable/Un-NKable SK vs. Mafia. Let's not count that one.
This might be a relevant point if I posted and just went along with the majority. But being opposed to the idea is clearly the minority opinion here, unfortunately..so I can't really see what point you are trying to make here.
You didn't want to voice your opinion at all, but were asked directly?
If the argument spoke for itself you wouldn't have to make ultimatums, especially out of game ones that we can't (and shouldn't be able to) make you follow up on.
Ultimatum is the wrong word. It'd be an ultimatum if i was trying to use that to convince people of something. I was just adding emphasis on my certainty there.
(And no, i actually really like that shirt. You couldn't actually make me follow up on that statement.)
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Mafia MVP Harry Potter Mafia!
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Because it gives you opportunity to leap on either without further notice, but no promise to do so in case the push never happens.
Not really. The only way I'd leap on either Cyan or DYH is if more conclusive evidence is presented to sway me. I've already stated I don't find the evidence presented conclusive in either direction. If I hop on the wagon without any reasons to change my mind, you can nail me for voting based on what I've called inconclusive evidence.
I've weighed in on the discussion. I've provided my opinions and backed them up. Nowhere in the Book of How a Townie Aught to Play does it say I have to choose either Cyan or DYH here.
Just to be clear. The issue is not that you won't pick somebody to vote. The issue is that you'll say: "Hey I associate his play with scumminess." But you won't actually back it up, and you won't return it with a really good reason we should be going your way (RobRoy). You're lukewarm and it reeks of scum. If DYH were only slightly less relevant it'd be you.
Not really. The only way I'd leap on either Cyan or DYH is if more conclusive evidence is presented to sway me. I've already stated I don't find the evidence presented conclusive in either direction. If I hop on the wagon without any reasons to change my mind, you can nail me for voting based on what I've called inconclusive evidence.
Voting you for super fence sitting is so much easier though - I wouldn't even have to wait.
Did you read post 303? You responded to it, so I assume you have. How was that not "a read on the players?"
Overall my opinion of you is this:
You are concerned with appearing neutral in this conflict,
You want to a) pressure both or b) pressure one and appear to be pressuring the other
@Andelijah: It doesn't even seem like we're having the same conversation. I'm trying to provide you examples as to why DYH is acting like he always does as scum, while also answering the questions that are directed to me.
Nice job not acknowledging the fact that multiple examples where provided where you do this AS SCUM, but not AS TOWN, and instead just trying to talk about the soft-claim again. You did the exact same thing, to me, in Greenwood. Too bad for you I was actually scum there and could just NK you, so I didn't need to get into one of these fights with you about it.
The context you've quoted there wasn't even directed at you. It was a response to Goatrevolt on the idea I was trying to get away from my stance about the soft-claim; a stance you had also made. I'm showing you both that I have not. Furthermore, what "multiple examples where I do this as scum" are you even talking about? Doing "what", exactly? I don't even know what you're referencing in this argument. Maybe this?
Quote from Cyan »
You did pretty much nothing to 'nail me'(Try to remember that I took the main person attacking me down with me, and manueved my other scumbuddy into winning anyway, despite losing 2 mafia in the first 3 days). Andelijah did all of the work, and you were happy to credit it all to him in THAT game thread(anyone can go look, it's easy to find). Now you're trying to make it look like you actually had to do something. Just like you're doing with GR here. Just like you've done in OTHER games where you were scum, like TFC, and Greenwood.
Your ego is so absolutely out of control you've completely forgotten the reality of that game.
I was well on my way to talking my way out of all of this until DYH replaced in and ruined it. Nothing ruins a strategy like replacements.
Clearly, I did nothing. It's a short read, let folks have at it. I did plenty on my own, Andelijah just identified the major tell; I provided additional texture.
And are you seriously trying to argue that I did not lay out the advantages of the soft-claim, but simply barned GR? You're dead wrong, it's in the thread. And before he explained it. The conversation with Some One, IIRC.
So, back to the point, these are your "multitude of examples"? When did I do this in TFC and Greenwood, exactly? I'd like examples, because A) I want to ensure you're arguing that I barn people, and B) I don't recall that being the case at all.
Quote from Cyan »
I love the fact that, *again*, if you find something that I have done ONCE as scum, it's some voteworthy tell. But when people point out that you're doing the same things that you do as scum..oh then it doesn't count. Way to be consistent.
No, I've only bothered to discount your examples because they've been wrong. The other examples folks have provided are speculation based on my propensity for bussing scum buddies day one. I cannot argue that point; I've done it quite a bit.
You, on the other hand, are reaching to attach behaviors that don't fit the mold.
Quote from Cyan »
The proof is there, like I already said. Multiple examples have been provided.
Really? Because I'm still waiting for a valid one.
Quote from Cyan »
Oh, you appear to be confused. I am absolutely *not* admitting that your case is valid. It isn't. I 'admitted' that you're correct that I A)usually post alot, B)didn't post alot early in Prehistoric and C)didn't post alot early here. But that's not a case, sorry. Something is not a 'tell' if it's happened one other time ever out of a ton of instances(I've been scum alot).
Riddle me this, Cyan? Where did Andelijah's and my attack come from in Prehistoric? It was based on your prior scum play. So, obviously it's happened more than once.
From that very game:
Quote from DYH »
Nothing comical about it; you post less content when you're scum.
How about that.
Quote from Cyan »
As for 'is that how scum Cyan plays', I'd say you are defeating your own argument now. In the multitude of games where I was scum, you found ONE INSTANCE where my behavior was similar to this one. One. That pretty emphatically shows that it was an abberation, and thus, you have no case here whatsoever.
Wrong. I have a giant case that six other people have joined. I have displayed how this behavior of yours matches not only Prehistoric and earlier scum play, but equally as important does not match your town play.
Quote from Cyan »
I do the same thing when I'm scum. Are you just never going to acknowledge all of the examples that disprove your theory here? I had not yet had the CHANCE to do so yet here. I latch onto people, not general conversations. Whenever discussions regarding mass-claiming etc. come up, my reaction is always the same; to be resolutely opposed. Just like I was in this game. And you're understating my opposition, because I already said the same thing that I'm saying now, and nothing else really needed to be said. I didn't find much to be suspicious of(other than you, and I've already explained why I didn't point it out immediately) in the people discussing it, so, there was no one to go after. But there is you. I have acted towards you, in this game, the same way that I act towards you in every game. We had this exact conversation in TFC(you know, another game where I was town and you were scum).
Oh, please. I was a dead man walking in TFC and I knew it. That's why I pulled the stunt with Jerubbaal that I did. That situation is so drastically different from where we are today, it just displays the amount of reaching you're doing here. No, the last time we really had an argument of this magnitude was actually in DotA where we were both town. Only difference is there you were suspicious because of a shady claim, not because of your behavior.
Quote from Cyan »
This is almost entirely fabrication. I am typically passive about 'hot topics'. Go find some other times where people wanted a mass-claim and I was opposed to it. My reaction is always the same in simple opposition. And I committed my opinion. I was opposed, and I still am. There's not much more to say on it.
Except you never bothered to say it. Or anything useful, for that matter, until I called you on it.
Quote from Cyan »
While this is somewhat true, it is NEVER true in the case of DYH. DYH and I have played a ridiculous # of games together. I know what works against him and what doesn't. Pointing out things to him that you are minorly suspicious of makes him pay alot more attention, and makes it harder to catch him. You have to really let him hang himself. I've had this argument w/ him multiple times(go read TFC, for example). This is particularly relevant early in the game because DYH has a tremendous tendency to bus a scum buddy early.
No, you just think you do. You've been wrong about me as much, if not more, than you've been right. The same holds true for me about you.
....I still Disagree Cyan should claim. I don't think you're really looking at this clearly DYH (whether intentionally or otherwise) and really think you and your 6 other voters should step back before forcing a claim out of Cyan.
And for my amusement: N/DC/Male
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Mafia MVP Harry Potter Mafia!
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Just to be clear. The issue is not that you won't pick somebody to vote. The issue is that you'll say: "Hey I associate his play with scumminess." But you won't actually back it up, and you won't return it with a really good reason we should be going your way (RobRoy). You're lukewarm and it reeks of scum. If DYH were only slightly less relevant it'd be you.
Based on you saying there is no issue with me not picking someone to vote, then I have to assume by "back it up" in the 2nd part you are talking about providing reasoning behind my stances. I have done that. Although, I must admit, when I read "back it up" it seems like you are saying "plop down a vote", despite you also saying it's not suspicious that I haven't voted. Mind clarifying?
As for RobRoy, I thought I had a good reason for voting him, but now I'm not so sure. Originally I voted him because of his suggestion about "we might lose a few power roles, but we might also catch scum!" Recently, his stance seemed contradictory on the soft-claim, but now he's claiming he never actually wanted to do a full name claim, he just wanted to get discussion on it for the purpose of analysis. I don't know whether to believe that or not. I need to look through and see whether that makes sense based on his play.
Andelijah: I'm not concerned with appearing neutral. I simply am not convinced that either Cyan or DYH are scum. Both cases are based on meta, and while I think meta has it's place I don't think it's the end-all. People change their meta all the time. Regardless, I think your conclusions are reasonable.
@Andelijah: It doesn't even seem like we're having the same conversation. I'm trying to provide you examples as to why DYH is acting like he always does as scum, while also answering the questions that are directed to me.
You are responding with..yeah I'm not sure what.
At least the second half the part that is directed at you should be understandable.
Andelijah: I'm not concerned with appearing neutral. I simply am not convinced that either Cyan or DYH are scum. Both cases are based on meta, and while I think meta has it's place I don't think it's the end-all. People change their meta all the time. Regardless, I think your conclusions are reasonable.
If you aren't convinced either Cyan or DYH are scum, you could... say so. Instead you gave arguments why both could be playing like their scum play (if you're not sure either is scum, why make the two points against them?) and never actually provide a read of them in your initial post.
Yes you gave your opinion in 303, but its 277 that you need to be defending here.
I haven't been participating much because I personally really don't like day one, since we're forced to go with very minimal evidence which could just as likely be someone's mistakes as someone's scumtells. The fact that I've never played with anyone in this game previously certainly doesn't help me figure things out either. When we end up getting close to a lynch, I'll cast my vote for someone if I feel that the arguments against them outbalance the arguments of their defense, however I probably will not be pointing any needless fingers up until then. I do, however, fully support this whole soft-claim business since it gives us a potential (however small) chance to catch scum later, with very very low potential risk to the town. Free information is good.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Don't click here!
(\__/)
(='.'=)This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
(")_(")signature to help him gain world domination!
After TMT finishes his work, he sets off to join the rest of the town. No sooner than he closes the secret passage, he hears footsteps coming down the hall. It's Roja! And he appears to be looking for our intrepid hero. Thinking fast, he ducks behind a decorative bush and waits for Roja to pass. He pulls out his trusty pencil and notepad and jots a small note next to Roja's name:
You don't wish to directly talk to me? I was asking as I hoping to find out which other game or what you were looking at to which you got your conclusion.
*shrug*
Might as well do the soft-claim thing. I just hope the scum can't use it against us somehow. H/Other/Male
Care to add anything on the ongoing topic?
Hey everyone please check your PM, as I just noticed something with mine and I have a message in with Ged about it. (Something dosen't apper to be correct in my PM and once I get a reply i'll post my soft claim. As this affects the soft claim.)
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks goes out to DarkNightCavalier and XenoNinja
....I still Disagree Cyan should claim. I don't think you're really looking at this clearly DYH (whether intentionally or otherwise) and really think you and your 6 other voters should step back before forcing a claim out of Cyan.
And for my amusement: N/DC/Male
What do you think I'm "not looking at clearly" here, Loran? It's pretty cut and dry, to me. Townie Cyan comes out of the gate firing and participating. Scum Cyan does not. Cyan did not come out of the gate strongly in this game. In fact, he was intentionally avoiding this thread while the issue of soft-claims was being debated. So, when asked why, he offers the lame "nothing to talk about" excuse he used in Prehistoric. Pardon me for believing I'm thinking just clearly, thank you very much.
I haven't been participating much because I personally really don't like day one, since we're forced to go with very minimal evidence which could just as likely be someone's mistakes as someone's scumtells. The fact that I've never played with anyone in this game previously certainly doesn't help me figure things out either. When we end up getting close to a lynch, I'll cast my vote for someone if I feel that the arguments against them outbalance the arguments of their defense, however I probably will not be pointing any needless fingers up until then. I do, however, fully support this whole soft-claim business since it gives us a potential (however small) chance to catch scum later, with very very low potential risk to the town. Free information is good.
So, basically what you're saying here is that we can count on you to be completely useless other than a majority lynch vote if you decide to pile on someone later because you won't be making any effort today to make a case? Instead, you'll just continue to lurk at a ridiculous rate and offer an opinion on the soft-claim after its fate has already been decided. Fabulous.
I think DYH's looking worse than Cyan, who I have no scum read on at all. Roja's probably my second lynch candidate.
You know, I'd really like to know how some of you can sit here and state you have "no scum read" on Cyan after what's been presented in this thread. It is truly mind-boggling. Seriously, you and Loran both - I'd love an explanation.
I'm also curious as to why you feel that way about Roja; I've already researched him (it's in the thread) and I fully disagree with you there, too.
Whoa. Was the soft-claim issue decided? I seem to recall that there were still a number of people who were opposed - no concensus. Also, if you're suspicious of Cyan, why wouldn't you want him claiming first? Finally, he's still at L-3 right now - if he isn't getting to L-2, why would he claim?
Whoa. Was the soft-claim issue decided? I seem to recall that there were still a number of people who were opposed - no concensus. Also, if you're suspicious of Cyan, why wouldn't you want him claiming first? Finally, he's still at L-3 right now - if he isn't getting to L-2, why would he claim?
I think you'll find if you go back through the thread, the number of people supporting, or at least okay with, a soft-claim is higher than those stating opposition. We've already had a couple people give their soft-claim. It's time to get going, this has dragged on long enough.
He's actually at -4 atm, because Roja unvoted for now. Yes, he needs to get to -2 so he has to claim. I expect that should happen given the strength of the case against him. But it's not really fair of me to ask him to claim before following through with the plan I've supported since the idea was proposed.
[quote=JqlGirl;/comments/10606430]About the ongoing bickerfest between Cyan and DYH and GR and others?
I really don't see any solid evidence that anyone involved in it is scum. (Goatrevolt)
I agree with what Numegil had to say about not liking day 1 votes due to a lack of information. However, that said, I am following along and will pipe in if I feel there's anything pertinent to say. (Numegil)
Wow. There sure are a lot of Other claims. (Cubus) So this soft-claim is looking to be pretty useless, though I guess it forces scum into a straightjacket for later on.[/quote]
Polly want a cracker?
You just parrotted three other people in one post, with the only original comment coming at the end, which is a basic summation of why we do soft-claims to begin with, yet downplaying it's usefulness.
About the ongoing bickerfest between Cyan and DYH and GR and others?
I really don't see any solid evidence that anyone involved in it is scum. (Goatrevolt)
I agree with what Numegil had to say about not liking day 1 votes due to a lack of information. However, that said, I am following along and will pipe in if I feel there's anything pertinent to say. (Numegil)
Wow. There sure are a lot of Other claims. (Cubus) So this soft-claim is looking to be pretty useless, though I guess it forces scum into a straightjacket for later on.
Polly want a cracker?
You just parrotted three other people in one post, with the only original comment coming at the end, which is a basic summation of why we do soft-claims to begin with, yet downplaying its usefulness.
I think you'll find if you go back through the thread, the number of people supporting, or at least okay with, a soft-claim is higher than those stating opposition. We've already had a couple people give their soft-claim. It's time to get going, this has dragged on long enough.
He's actually at -4 atm, because Roja unvoted for now. Yes, he needs to get to -2 so he has to claim. I expect that should happen given the strength of the case against him. But it's not really fair of me to ask him to claim before following through with the plan I've supported since the idea was proposed.
Right, well - I can see that. Here's the next issue, though: if this plan is going forward, I don't want people to just be putting forward their false-claims in the order they rumble into the thread in. Then the scum just claim at the end. We should have had an order set before anyone claimed, but I don't know who I trust enough at this point to set that order.
Right, well - I can see that. Here's the next issue, though: if this plan is going forward, I don't want people to just be putting forward their false-claims in the order they rumble into the thread in. Then the scum just claim at the end. We should have had an order set before anyone claimed, but I don't know who I trust enough at this point to set that order.
I suggested post count earlier; I think that'd be an excellent way to do it.
Hey, at least I'm saying something. Unlike a lot of players who are lurking and not even trying to contribute.
What I meant by my 'useless' statement is that it provides us with nothing we can work with right now, though it will ultimately be useful down the road. This, however, doesn't solve the issue of having to vote based on ghosts and vapours on Day 1 and having a high chance of lynching a townie who's just playing scummy (like I have been victim to in several games.)
I only count three people under the mod-line. I've already ripped on Numegil, and it'd be nice to hear from Infinis. Spot, while not posting much, made a decent post in his last contribution. Is there anyone else in particular you're referencing with "a lot"?
I'm going to reference some work that Andelijah did in a previous game here; the town's hit rate for Day One on MTGS is pretty darned good. The reason scummy-playing townies do get mislynched is, well because they're playing scummy, and the reason that perception is there, I'm willing to bet, is because they're not making an effort to do scum-hunting, but rather concerned with their own image and staying alive.
Hey, at least I'm saying something. Unlike a lot of players who are lurking and not even trying to contribute.
What I meant by my 'useless' statement is that it provides us with nothing we can work with right now, though it will ultimately be useful down the road.
This was the exact reason I wanted to hear something from you. By not saying anything relavent to me is that you are just trying to appear active and UTR.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks goes out to DarkNightCavalier and XenoNinja
Yes you gave your opinion in 303, but its 277 that you need to be defending here.
303 gives further explanation to 277. You keep harping on the idea that I didn't provide my explicit take on DYH/Cyan in 277. I provided that in 303. I can't "defend" against your complaints with 277 in any other way than just saying that I explained it in a later post.
As for RobRoy:
Post 135: Doesn't see the point to softclaiming Marvel/DC/Other. Proposes discussion on a full name claim.
Post 155: Again, suggests that the Marvel/DC/Other claim isn't going to do any good, and again pushes the idea of discussion regarding a full name claim.
Post 233: Again, against Marvel/DC/Other claiming.
Post 258: Ok, now he suggests that the Marvel/DC/Other claim is more likely to help than hurt. What in the last 25 posts changed your mind? Browsing through those 25 posts, it appears most of the discussion was centered around Cyan, DYH, and the tussle between DYH/Loran. This sudden reversal is suspect.
Post 288: He states he never wanted a full claim day 1, he just wanted it discussed to get reactions. I have a hard time believing this. Two times (135, 155) he pushes the discussion of a full name claim. Who pushes for something they are against for the purpose of getting reactions? If you thought it was a bad idea, I'm doubtful you would bring it up for discussion. What good was going to come from discussion of a bad idea?
I'm keeping my vote on Robroy. His stances regarding soft claims have been suspect. There's the sudden reversal on the benefit of softclaiming. Then there's trying to start discussion on full name claiming, an idea he didn't want. Add to that a distinct lack of opinions regarding players: didn't comment on DYH/Cyan until pushed by DYH, told Roja his vote was bad but gave no indication on alignment, etc.
You don't wish to directly talk to me? I was asking as I hoping to find out which other game or what you were looking at to which you got your conclusion.
A simple misunderstanding, my strange-faced associate. I thought, clearly in a state of delirium, that you were implying my file comment was about my role. My files on Cyan include Fiasco Corp and Doomsday, though I've had occasion to glance over other files on this site. And I find that I agree with DYH that Cyan's town play tends to not include any submissive comments, which is something he has displayed in this game. From what I recall of Cyan's town play, he is abrasive and aggressive even when he's not directly attacking players, which has not thus far seemed to be the case.
I am a little wary of the cootie-ridden JqlGirl, but even as town she does tend to come off as suspicious from what I remember of her in the last game I played with her. Aside from her nefarious Dayquil plot, I don't see anything warranting pressure at this time.
I'm still chewing over the mod statement that false claiming will be hard enough. I think there's something we're missing about the setup.
The arguments have been back and forth over the merits of the soft claim. I do believe that some people maybe mistaken on the Other claim, since Marvel and DC have consumed many smaller companies, while leaving their nameplates intact. If no one is mistaken, then I might be developing a theory.
So loran is the only one claiming DC/Marvel and not Other? DYH, jqlGirl, GR, Ande, Num, ced...that's with a quick scan.
I'm amused that [Shalako], of all people, are talking about terrible reasoning. "Hey, PF's RVS daykill must be serious, therefore I should shoot him to prove that I have a daykill!"
Hey everyone please check your PM, as I just noticed something with mine and I have a message in with Ged about it. (Something dosen't apper to be correct in my PM and once I get a reply i'll post my soft claim. As this affects the soft claim.)
OK Ged has gotten back to me, and it's exactly what I thought. My PM had an error with it.
This means that the following statement is INCORRECT. :
Name starts with a P, I am a male, and I am an Other. I'm also not surprised by so many Others, considering the obscureness and origin of my source material.
Goatrevolt had a nice little issue-track of RobRoy. Also add in his most recent post on the last page that he thought the soft claim issue was still being decided. Reluctance to get the ball rolling? FOS Robroy
DYH vs Cyan...ugh. I've never had luck reading either in the past, and both are good enough players that I think they can project whatever persona or style into the thread they want to. DYH's assumptions are sound, but they seem trumped up. Cyan's explanations make perfect sense, and share many feelings that I do about certain phases in the game. They don't really have an invalid argument going on, but I feel that if this had happened on Day 3 or 4 we would have a LOT more evidence to go on, which may not end up lining up with the explanations.
And loran - hope you've gotten over your pain from Wednesday
And loran - hope you've gotten over your pain from Wednesday
BURN!
In other news, I'm through 130 posts atm of my recap. Should be finished today. Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
(And spot, we were just luring them into a false sense of security for the acc tourny)
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Mafia MVP Harry Potter Mafia!
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
303 gives further explanation to 277. You keep harping on the idea that I didn't provide my explicit take on DYH/Cyan in 277. I provided that in 303. I can't "defend" against your complaints with 277 in any other way than just saying that I explained it in a later post.
A) You asked why I made the comment I did. 303 was not posted when I whined at you for it (nor when Dagger did, he made mention of it first)
B) Your (lack of) conclusion in 303 is not what I got out of 277. If you are not convinced either are scum, you have no reason to make arguments against both of them.
As for the softclaim going/no order: its better for the sake of speed. As I said before, orders cause backups, and further debate (I would estimate 1/2 for, 1/4 meh, and 1/4 against, but maybe that's just because most of the against just sat silently for most of the conversation) - neither of which really need to happen while the game is progressing so nicely.
Lastly, I will be away for the weekend. Don't spam up the thread without me.
A) You asked why I made the comment I did. 303 was not posted when I whined at you for it (nor when Dagger did, he made mention of it first)
B) Your (lack of) conclusion in 303 is not what I got out of 277. If you are not convinced either are scum, you have no reason to make arguments against both of them.
A) Yes, I understand why you originally attacked me. I gave you a response to that in 303. We're just going in circles at this point. You saying "you need to defend against 277." Me saying "I did in 303." You saying, "yeah, but I didn't attack you for 303, I attacked you for 277." Me, "Yes, I realize that, that's why I answered that attack in 303."
B) Your italicized section is truly wrong. Unless I'm convinced someone is scum I can't attack them? Um, what? How do you become convinced someone is scum? It just kind of magically happens, then you are free to attack? Pointing out suspicious facets of someone's play and having them respond to those accusations is how you determine whether or not someone is scum. Example: I wasn't convinced Roja was scum, but I was suspicious of his cautious manner in regards to his random vote. I pressured him on that, and have come to the conclusion that I don't think he's scum.
It seems a majority have decided to go along with the soft claim. I don't like it, but I'll go ahead and humor DYH. I'll even compile a list of claims so far.
~Tilde~ : S / Male / Other
Abandon Hope :
andelijah : Y / Male / Other
ced395 : B / Male / Other
CropCircles :
Cubus : R / Male / DC (states that his rolename is obvious)
Cyan :
Dagger :
DYH : I / Male / Other
goatrevolt : D / Male / Other
Infinis : F / Male / Other
JqlGirl : H / Male / Other
loran16 : N / Male / DC
Numegil : B / Male / Other
RobRoy :
Roja : T / Male / Marvel (possible same name character confusion?)
Some One :
spotofprey : P / Male / Other
The Mad Tapper : S / Male / Other
~Tilde~ : S / Male / Other
Abandon Hope :
andelijah : Y / Male / Other
ced395 : B / Male / Other
CropCircles :
Cubus : R / Male / DC (states that his rolename is obvious)
Cyan :
Dagger :
DYH : I / Male / Other
goatrevolt : D / Male / Other
Infinis : F / Male / Other
JqlGirl : H / Male / Other
loran16 : N / Male / DC
Numegil : B / Male / Other
RobRoy :
Roja : T / Male / Marvel
Some One : S / Male / DC
spotofprey : P / Male / Other
The Mad Tapper : S / Male / Other
B) Your italicized section is truly wrong. Unless I'm convinced someone is scum I can't attack them?
Yes. You can ask questions, probe, draw comparisons, but until you think they are scum there is no reason to attack them. Attacks are used to convince other people that they are scum. If you're not sure yourself, then what is the point in convincing others?
Your post essentially says certain aspects of their play this game exemplify some of their previous scum play (and your HP reference should add that you were a neutral - of note you had similar goals that game). The purpose of this post can only be to convince other's of their scumminess, but apparently not yourself.
Post 233: Again, against Marvel/DC/Other claiming.
Post 258: Ok, now he suggests that the Marvel/DC/Other claim is more likely to help than hurt. What in the last 25 posts changed your mind? Browsing through those 25 posts, it appears most of the discussion was centered around Cyan, DYH, and the tussle between DYH/Loran. This sudden reversal is suspect.
As mentioned in post 233, I has having problems accessing the site, and was mostly just checking in. Later on I was able to do a full reread and found myself swayed by the argument that the Marvel/DC/Other claim was unlikely to cause harm and might help. I think someone put forward the argument that if something had a 3% chance of helping and a 1% chance of hurting, we should go for it. That seemed reasonable.
Post 288: He states he never wanted a full claim day 1, he just wanted it discussed to get reactions. I have a hard time believing this. Two times (135, 155) he pushes the discussion of a full name claim. Who pushes for something they are against for the purpose of getting reactions? If you thought it was a bad idea, I'm doubtful you would bring it up for discussion. What good was going to come from discussion of a bad idea?
You can learn a lot from discussions of bad ideas. I'd been thinking about the nameclaims as a result of an earlier game that I spectated on 'Tings, so I decided to try and make sure that we were leaving the DATBF phase with that discussion. I never though it was a terribly good idea, though, as you can tell from my wording. Take another look, and keep these points in mind: I wanted discussion on the topic; I did not think it was a good idea. Is there anything in my posts that contradicts either of those points?
Add to that a distinct lack of opinions regarding players: didn't comment on DYH/Cyan until pushed by DYH, told Roja his vote was bad but gave no indication on alignment, etc.
I explained why I was keeping quiet on DYH/Cyan, and Roja's vote is something that I could see being done either by scum or townie. It was noteworthy, but not by itself something that made me want to attack him.
The arguments have been back and forth over the merits of the soft claim. I do believe that some people maybe mistaken on the Other claim, since Marvel and DC have consumed many smaller companies, while leaving their nameplates intact. If no one is mistaken, then I might be developing a theory.
So loran is the only one claiming DC/Marvel and not Other? DYH, jqlGirl, GR, Ande, Num, ced...that's with a quick scan.
Cubus as well, and now Roja, although I'm really curious what that mistake might be. I would suggest that anyone who isn't 100% positive check wikipedia to be sure.
With the number of people who've softclaimed, and with some being suspicious of me, I'll claim here: Male/Other/D.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
[The Family]
Obviously saying "you got me" is some sort of concession, but it seemed more like a concession in regards to his very early activity in DD mafia as opposed to "I am scum, lynch me."
Thoughts: I don't see Cyan as scum. Do I find his crisis of confidence and humility to be typical Cyan? not really. But it's really not something i can see being faked by scumCyan or talked about by scumCyan. Scumcyan should know that acting his usual way toward this game would be optimum, and would be more antagonistic here like in Post 265. But post 275 IS out of character here and there's really no reason for Cyan to go out of character to defend himself. It serves no purpose except to make DYH's case that he's more acting out of character and thus is not town (which is a flawed argument again, but thats beside the point).
Im not sure who i want to vote instead at the moment, though ced's FOS of some one feels pretty awful. I need to go back more.
Still, if Cyan is scum, I'll eat my Duke-Rolling Stones T-Shirt. And i like that shirt.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Thus far, Cyan and Some One are the two players that really catch my attention. I'm in favor of a push in either direction.
Certain players (as scums) tend to post much more aggressively in retaliation to people calling them out as scums, after trying to slide under the radar harmlessly for a certain period of time. I believe DYH is one such player (Wuffles is one other player that comes to mind). What is your opinion on this?
IIRC, usually a minor point of suspicion would set you off already in your aggressive pursuit, isn't it?
And in your opinion, which of Cyan's points are strong?
This point came out of nowhere, and reeked of flailing.
I think your stance in this game is pretty interesting thus far. Are you perhaps a neutral?
Oh, I assumed your previous statement on this was a sarcastic one. I can see now it wasn't. You are proposing the possibility that both of them are scum mates? Based on what Loran and subsequently I, said?
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
CropCircles - 1 (Dagger)
Cubus - 1 (RobRoy)
Cyan - 7 (DYH, andelijah, ced395, CropCircles, ~Tilde~, The Mad Tapper, Roja)
DYH - 3 (Abandon Hope, Cubus, Cyan)
JqlGirl - 1 (infinis)
RobRoy - 1 (goatrevolt)
With 19 alive, it's 10 to lynch. Numegil has been prodded. Players (especially those with fewer posts than the mod) are reminded that posting once every 2 days is the accepted minimum posting rate.
UNVOTE for now.
And I agree with Dagger, if there is any soft claim to be made there should be something set up soon. I don't think there would be much to gain, however I am willing to participate with a subclaim. I guess company, sex, first inital is a good start..
@Roja: If I was 'giving up and admitting guilt' with that post, I probably wouldn't have bothered with..all of the rest of the post.
'You got me' is a phrase I use sarcastically sometimes, when I'm 'conceding' something that doesn't actually matter. Which is exactly the case here.
@DYH:
Nice job not acknowledging the fact that multiple examples where provided where you do this AS SCUM, but not AS TOWN, and instead just trying to talk about the soft-claim again. You did the exact same thing, to me, in Greenwood. Too bad for you I was actually scum there and could just NK you, so I didn't need to get into one of these fights with you about it.
I love the fact that, *again*, if you find something that I have done ONCE as scum, it's some voteworthy tell. But when people point out that you're doing the same things that you do as scum..oh then it doesn't count. Way to be consistent.
The proof is there, like I already said. Multiple examples have been provided.
Oh, you appear to be confused. I am absolutely *not* admitting that your case is valid. It isn't. I 'admitted' that you're correct that I A)usually post alot, B)didn't post alot early in Prehistoric and C)didn't post alot early here. But that's not a case, sorry. Something is not a 'tell' if it's happened one other time ever out of a ton of instances(I've been scum alot).
As for 'is that how scum Cyan plays', I'd say you are defeating your own argument now. In the multitude of games where I was scum, you found ONE INSTANCE where my behavior was similar to this one. One. That pretty emphatically shows that it was an abberation, and thus, you have no case here whatsoever.
I do the same thing when I'm scum. Are you just never going to acknowledge all of the examples that disprove your theory here? I had not yet had the CHANCE to do so yet here. I latch onto people, not general conversations. Whenever discussions regarding mass-claiming etc. come up, my reaction is always the same; to be resolutely opposed. Just like I was in this game. And you're understating my opposition, because I already said the same thing that I'm saying now, and nothing else really needed to be said. I didn't find much to be suspicious of(other than you, and I've already explained why I didn't point it out immediately) in the people discussing it, so, there was no one to go after. But there is you. I have acted towards you, in this game, the same way that I act towards you in every game. We had this exact conversation in TFC(you know, another game where I was town and you were scum).
This is almost entirely fabrication. I am typically passive about 'hot topics'. Go find some other times where people wanted a mass-claim and I was opposed to it. My reaction is always the same in simple opposition. And I committed my opinion. I was opposed, and I still am. There's not much more to say on it.
I disagree with this. DYH is simply more aggressive on the whole as scum, not just 'in retaliation'.
While this is somewhat true, it is NEVER true in the case of DYH. DYH and I have played a ridiculous # of games together. I know what works against him and what doesn't. Pointing out things to him that you are minorly suspicious of makes him pay alot more attention, and makes it harder to catch him. You have to really let him hang himself. I've had this argument w/ him multiple times(go read TFC, for example). This is particularly relevant early in the game because DYH has a tremendous tendency to bus a scum buddy early.
Nope. Interesting in what way?
Yes, I see it as a possibility, but am uncertain of how probable. I would like to parouse a couple games they played in attempt to decipher the mystery. Thus far, I only looked through FFVII where Cyan seemed pretty active early on, so at this time, I don't know what his inactivity early on would be representative of.
Because you called me out for fence-sitting and I supported my uncertainty with the reasons I previously cited.
Because the "probably" relied on a prediction that currently seems false. The battle between DYH and Cyan has neither been longer nor epicer than the battle between DYH and Loran. That doesn't mean it won't turn out to be as long or as epic, but thus far, it hasn't.
Should this somehow make your argument more certain to be true?
I'm confused, as it reads now I see "this looks exactly like a game where I was scum and you were town"... which I believe is the point he's making.
Or in Warhammer - I think the point is that it is a recent trend.
You didn't respond while the discussion was going on, but after it.
Salvation Mafia Clan
Mafia Stats
last updated 03/23/11
My alignment in that game is not relevant for this point, as I am providing trends in DYH's behavior, to conclude with how, in this game, he is clearly acting like he typically does as scum. He did the same thing in TFC. And HP, like Goat said. And Court Mafia. Etcetera. In Prehistoric, where he was town, he acted completely differently. You, of all people, ought to know that one.
I had plenty of posts in WH2K, I just didn't say much in them. That is not the accusation that is being made here. Besides, I was scum in Battle Royale and acted like my normal self. And in FF7. So no, there is no 'trend'.
This might be a relevant point if I posted and just went along with the majority. But being opposed to the idea is clearly the minority opinion here, unfortunately..so I can't really see what point you are trying to make here.
Why? Is there something wrong with me saying that there have been good points from either side and then backing it up?
Frankly, I'm not convinced either are scum. I think DYH has exhibited signs that I associate with his scum play, but at this point in time I don't think it's really all that conclusive. Cyan, likewise, has been playing more like how I've seen him as scum, but again not really conclusive.
I'd like both you and Dagger to explain why you are suspicious of my stance here.
No. Why would you even ask this? I think my argument speaks for itself.
Also, there's no room in the custom title for the closing parenthesis.....stupid custom title character limit.
Of note btw is that i mostly withdraw my bit about ced's post. I still think it's misguided, but i forgot he made an action earlier that i think is pretty likely to be town.
Time to look back.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
At this point in the game nothing is conclusive. So do some weighing and get off the fence. I find this sort of spectating very suspicious.
I've weighed in on the discussion. I've provided my opinions and backed them up. Nowhere in the Book of How a Townie Aught to Play does it say I have to choose either Cyan or DYH here.
After TMT finishes his work, he sets off to join the rest of the town. No sooner than he closes the secret passage, he hears footsteps coming down the hall. It's Roja! And he appears to be looking for our intrepid hero. Thinking fast, he ducks behind a decorative bush and waits for Roja to pass. He pulls out his trusty pencil and notepad and jots a small note next to Roja's name:
Record: 3-2
Simpsons Mafia (Newbie) - Vanilla Mafia - Win
The Fiasco Corporation - Town Reporter - Loss
Doomsday Mafia - Mafia Roleblocker - Win
Battle Royale Mafia - Serial Daykiller - Loss
Danger City Mafia - Vanilla Town - Win
Basically, you don't give any read on the players (ie "I think both DYH and Cyan are leaning scum"), but rather a read on the argument itself.
If the argument spoke for itself you wouldn't have to make ultimatums, especially out of game ones that we can't (and shouldn't be able to) make you follow up on.
Fixed, and the conclusion is the same. At least partially.
I'd have to reread Harry Potter to try and remember why I thought DYH was scum there, but having never even voted him other than that game (I think), I'm not sure why I should know his scum behavior.
I'm not so sure of that, but I'm not really in the mood for counting.
Didn't read that thoroughly. But it didn't work too well, did it?
Unlynchable/Un-NKable SK vs. Mafia. Let's not count that one.
You didn't want to voice your opinion at all, but were asked directly?
Salvation Mafia Clan
Mafia Stats
last updated 03/23/11
Ultimatum is the wrong word. It'd be an ultimatum if i was trying to use that to convince people of something. I was just adding emphasis on my certainty there.
(And no, i actually really like that shirt. You couldn't actually make me follow up on that statement.)
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
spotofprey
Goatrevolt
Cubus
Cyan
~insert hidden player~
Serial Killer
andelijah
TOWN
~Tilde~
Abandon Hope
ced395
Dagger
Infinis
JqlGirl
loran16
DYH
Roja
Some One
The Mad Tapper
Numegil
RobRoy
Hmmm...
[The Family]
Not really. The only way I'd leap on either Cyan or DYH is if more conclusive evidence is presented to sway me. I've already stated I don't find the evidence presented conclusive in either direction. If I hop on the wagon without any reasons to change my mind, you can nail me for voting based on what I've called inconclusive evidence.
Did you read post 303? You responded to it, so I assume you have. How was that not "a read on the players?"
Er, scratch that.
Ask you nicely?
Voting you for super fence sitting is so much easier though - I wouldn't even have to wait.
No, I was responding to you post the page before, the one with the quote I disliked. And your stance reads something like "both of them are scummy, here are some points against them, but I'm not sure and its not really conclusive" (despite being decent points - I guess not.)
Overall my opinion of you is this:
You are concerned with appearing neutral in this conflict,
You want to a) pressure both or b) pressure one and appear to be pressuring the other
Salvation Mafia Clan
Mafia Stats
last updated 03/23/11
You are responding with..yeah I'm not sure what.
The context you've quoted there wasn't even directed at you. It was a response to Goatrevolt on the idea I was trying to get away from my stance about the soft-claim; a stance you had also made. I'm showing you both that I have not. Furthermore, what "multiple examples where I do this as scum" are you even talking about? Doing "what", exactly? I don't even know what you're referencing in this argument. Maybe this?
Your ego is so absolutely out of control you've completely forgotten the reality of that game.
Clearly, I did nothing. It's a short read, let folks have at it. I did plenty on my own, Andelijah just identified the major tell; I provided additional texture.
And are you seriously trying to argue that I did not lay out the advantages of the soft-claim, but simply barned GR? You're dead wrong, it's in the thread. And before he explained it. The conversation with Some One, IIRC.
So, back to the point, these are your "multitude of examples"? When did I do this in TFC and Greenwood, exactly? I'd like examples, because A) I want to ensure you're arguing that I barn people, and B) I don't recall that being the case at all.
No, I've only bothered to discount your examples because they've been wrong. The other examples folks have provided are speculation based on my propensity for bussing scum buddies day one. I cannot argue that point; I've done it quite a bit.
You, on the other hand, are reaching to attach behaviors that don't fit the mold.
Really? Because I'm still waiting for a valid one.
Riddle me this, Cyan? Where did Andelijah's and my attack come from in Prehistoric? It was based on your prior scum play. So, obviously it's happened more than once.
From that very game:
How about that.
Wrong. I have a giant case that six other people have joined. I have displayed how this behavior of yours matches not only Prehistoric and earlier scum play, but equally as important does not match your town play.
Oh, please. I was a dead man walking in TFC and I knew it. That's why I pulled the stunt with Jerubbaal that I did. That situation is so drastically different from where we are today, it just displays the amount of reaching you're doing here. No, the last time we really had an argument of this magnitude was actually in DotA where we were both town. Only difference is there you were suspicious because of a shady claim, not because of your behavior.
Except you never bothered to say it. Or anything useful, for that matter, until I called you on it.
No, you just think you do. You've been wrong about me as much, if not more, than you've been right. The same holds true for me about you.
* * * * *
Before Cyan claims we should do the soft-claim.
I/Other/Male
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
And for my amusement: N/DC/Male
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Based on you saying there is no issue with me not picking someone to vote, then I have to assume by "back it up" in the 2nd part you are talking about providing reasoning behind my stances. I have done that. Although, I must admit, when I read "back it up" it seems like you are saying "plop down a vote", despite you also saying it's not suspicious that I haven't voted. Mind clarifying?
As for RobRoy, I thought I had a good reason for voting him, but now I'm not so sure. Originally I voted him because of his suggestion about "we might lose a few power roles, but we might also catch scum!" Recently, his stance seemed contradictory on the soft-claim, but now he's claiming he never actually wanted to do a full name claim, he just wanted to get discussion on it for the purpose of analysis. I don't know whether to believe that or not. I need to look through and see whether that makes sense based on his play.
Andelijah: I'm not concerned with appearing neutral. I simply am not convinced that either Cyan or DYH are scum. Both cases are based on meta, and while I think meta has it's place I don't think it's the end-all. People change their meta all the time. Regardless, I think your conclusions are reasonable.
If you aren't convinced either Cyan or DYH are scum, you could... say so. Instead you gave arguments why both could be playing like their scum play (if you're not sure either is scum, why make the two points against them?) and never actually provide a read of them in your initial post.
Yes you gave your opinion in 303, but its 277 that you need to be defending here.
Salvation Mafia Clan
Mafia Stats
last updated 03/23/11
I haven't been participating much because I personally really don't like day one, since we're forced to go with very minimal evidence which could just as likely be someone's mistakes as someone's scumtells. The fact that I've never played with anyone in this game previously certainly doesn't help me figure things out either. When we end up getting close to a lynch, I'll cast my vote for someone if I feel that the arguments against them outbalance the arguments of their defense, however I probably will not be pointing any needless fingers up until then. I do, however, fully support this whole soft-claim business since it gives us a potential (however small) chance to catch scum later, with very very low potential risk to the town. Free information is good.
(\__/)
(='.'=)This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
(")_(")signature to help him gain world domination!
You don't wish to directly talk to me? I was asking as I hoping to find out which other game or what you were looking at to which you got your conclusion.
Care to add anything on the ongoing topic?
Hey everyone please check your PM, as I just noticed something with mine and I have a message in with Ged about it. (Something dosen't apper to be correct in my PM and once I get a reply i'll post my soft claim. As this affects the soft claim.)
What do you think I'm "not looking at clearly" here, Loran? It's pretty cut and dry, to me. Townie Cyan comes out of the gate firing and participating. Scum Cyan does not. Cyan did not come out of the gate strongly in this game. In fact, he was intentionally avoiding this thread while the issue of soft-claims was being debated. So, when asked why, he offers the lame "nothing to talk about" excuse he used in Prehistoric. Pardon me for believing I'm thinking just clearly, thank you very much.
So, basically what you're saying here is that we can count on you to be completely useless other than a majority lynch vote if you decide to pile on someone later because you won't be making any effort today to make a case? Instead, you'll just continue to lurk at a ridiculous rate and offer an opinion on the soft-claim after its fate has already been decided. Fabulous.
If I had two votes, I'd be voting you, too.
FoS: Numegil
You know, I'd really like to know how some of you can sit here and state you have "no scum read" on Cyan after what's been presented in this thread. It is truly mind-boggling. Seriously, you and Loran both - I'd love an explanation.
I'm also curious as to why you feel that way about Roja; I've already researched him (it's in the thread) and I fully disagree with you there, too.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Whoa. Was the soft-claim issue decided? I seem to recall that there were still a number of people who were opposed - no concensus. Also, if you're suspicious of Cyan, why wouldn't you want him claiming first? Finally, he's still at L-3 right now - if he isn't getting to L-2, why would he claim?
I think you'll find if you go back through the thread, the number of people supporting, or at least okay with, a soft-claim is higher than those stating opposition. We've already had a couple people give their soft-claim. It's time to get going, this has dragged on long enough.
He's actually at -4 atm, because Roja unvoted for now. Yes, he needs to get to -2 so he has to claim. I expect that should happen given the strength of the case against him. But it's not really fair of me to ask him to claim before following through with the plan I've supported since the idea was proposed.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
I really don't see any solid evidence that anyone involved in it is scum. (Goatrevolt)
I agree with what Numegil had to say about not liking day 1 votes due to a lack of information. However, that said, I am following along and will pipe in if I feel there's anything pertinent to say. (Numegil)
Wow. There sure are a lot of Other claims. (Cubus) So this soft-claim is looking to be pretty useless, though I guess it forces scum into a straightjacket for later on.[/quote]
Polly want a cracker?
You just parrotted three other people in one post, with the only original comment coming at the end, which is a basic summation of why we do soft-claims to begin with, yet downplaying it's usefulness.
Why is that?
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Polly want a cracker?
You just parrotted three other people in one post, with the only original comment coming at the end, which is a basic summation of why we do soft-claims to begin with, yet downplaying its usefulness.
Why is that?
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Right, well - I can see that. Here's the next issue, though: if this plan is going forward, I don't want people to just be putting forward their false-claims in the order they rumble into the thread in. Then the scum just claim at the end. We should have had an order set before anyone claimed, but I don't know who I trust enough at this point to set that order.
I suggested post count earlier; I think that'd be an excellent way to do it.
I only count three people under the mod-line. I've already ripped on Numegil, and it'd be nice to hear from Infinis. Spot, while not posting much, made a decent post in his last contribution. Is there anyone else in particular you're referencing with "a lot"?
I'm going to reference some work that Andelijah did in a previous game here; the town's hit rate for Day One on MTGS is pretty darned good. The reason scummy-playing townies do get mislynched is, well because they're playing scummy, and the reason that perception is there, I'm willing to bet, is because they're not making an effort to do scum-hunting, but rather concerned with their own image and staying alive.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
This was the exact reason I wanted to hear something from you. By not saying anything relavent to me is that you are just trying to appear active and UTR.
303 gives further explanation to 277. You keep harping on the idea that I didn't provide my explicit take on DYH/Cyan in 277. I provided that in 303. I can't "defend" against your complaints with 277 in any other way than just saying that I explained it in a later post.
As for RobRoy:
Post 135: Doesn't see the point to softclaiming Marvel/DC/Other. Proposes discussion on a full name claim.
Post 155: Again, suggests that the Marvel/DC/Other claim isn't going to do any good, and again pushes the idea of discussion regarding a full name claim.
Post 233: Again, against Marvel/DC/Other claiming.
Post 258: Ok, now he suggests that the Marvel/DC/Other claim is more likely to help than hurt. What in the last 25 posts changed your mind? Browsing through those 25 posts, it appears most of the discussion was centered around Cyan, DYH, and the tussle between DYH/Loran. This sudden reversal is suspect.
Post 288: He states he never wanted a full claim day 1, he just wanted it discussed to get reactions. I have a hard time believing this. Two times (135, 155) he pushes the discussion of a full name claim. Who pushes for something they are against for the purpose of getting reactions? If you thought it was a bad idea, I'm doubtful you would bring it up for discussion. What good was going to come from discussion of a bad idea?
I'm keeping my vote on Robroy. His stances regarding soft claims have been suspect. There's the sudden reversal on the benefit of softclaiming. Then there's trying to start discussion on full name claiming, an idea he didn't want. Add to that a distinct lack of opinions regarding players: didn't comment on DYH/Cyan until pushed by DYH, told Roja his vote was bad but gave no indication on alignment, etc.
A simple misunderstanding, my strange-faced associate. I thought, clearly in a state of delirium, that you were implying my file comment was about my role. My files on Cyan include Fiasco Corp and Doomsday, though I've had occasion to glance over other files on this site. And I find that I agree with DYH that Cyan's town play tends to not include any submissive comments, which is something he has displayed in this game. From what I recall of Cyan's town play, he is abrasive and aggressive even when he's not directly attacking players, which has not thus far seemed to be the case.
I am a little wary of the cootie-ridden JqlGirl, but even as town she does tend to come off as suspicious from what I remember of her in the last game I played with her. Aside from her nefarious Dayquil plot, I don't see anything warranting pressure at this time.
Record: 3-2
Simpsons Mafia (Newbie) - Vanilla Mafia - Win
The Fiasco Corporation - Town Reporter - Loss
Doomsday Mafia - Mafia Roleblocker - Win
Battle Royale Mafia - Serial Daykiller - Loss
Danger City Mafia - Vanilla Town - Win
I'm still chewing over the mod statement that false claiming will be hard enough. I think there's something we're missing about the setup.
The arguments have been back and forth over the merits of the soft claim. I do believe that some people maybe mistaken on the Other claim, since Marvel and DC have consumed many smaller companies, while leaving their nameplates intact. If no one is mistaken, then I might be developing a theory.
So loran is the only one claiming DC/Marvel and not Other? DYH, jqlGirl, GR, Ande, Num, ced...that's with a quick scan.
12-11? I'm losing track
OK Ged has gotten back to me, and it's exactly what I thought. My PM had an error with it.
This means that the following statement is INCORRECT. :
This is my subclaim.
T / MARVEL / Male
Record: 3-2
Simpsons Mafia (Newbie) - Vanilla Mafia - Win
The Fiasco Corporation - Town Reporter - Loss
Doomsday Mafia - Mafia Roleblocker - Win
Battle Royale Mafia - Serial Daykiller - Loss
Danger City Mafia - Vanilla Town - Win
Goatrevolt had a nice little issue-track of RobRoy. Also add in his most recent post on the last page that he thought the soft claim issue was still being decided. Reluctance to get the ball rolling? FOS Robroy
DYH vs Cyan...ugh. I've never had luck reading either in the past, and both are good enough players that I think they can project whatever persona or style into the thread they want to. DYH's assumptions are sound, but they seem trumped up. Cyan's explanations make perfect sense, and share many feelings that I do about certain phases in the game. They don't really have an invalid argument going on, but I feel that if this had happened on Day 3 or 4 we would have a LOT more evidence to go on, which may not end up lining up with the explanations.
And loran - hope you've gotten over your pain from Wednesday
BURN!
In other news, I'm through 130 posts atm of my recap. Should be finished today. Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
(And spot, we were just luring them into a false sense of security for the acc tourny)
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
B) Your (lack of) conclusion in 303 is not what I got out of 277. If you are not convinced either are scum, you have no reason to make arguments against both of them.
As for the softclaim going/no order: its better for the sake of speed. As I said before, orders cause backups, and further debate (I would estimate 1/2 for, 1/4 meh, and 1/4 against, but maybe that's just because most of the against just sat silently for most of the conversation) - neither of which really need to happen while the game is progressing so nicely.
Lastly, I will be away for the weekend. Don't spam up the thread without me.
Salvation Mafia Clan
Mafia Stats
last updated 03/23/11
A) Yes, I understand why you originally attacked me. I gave you a response to that in 303. We're just going in circles at this point. You saying "you need to defend against 277." Me saying "I did in 303." You saying, "yeah, but I didn't attack you for 303, I attacked you for 277." Me, "Yes, I realize that, that's why I answered that attack in 303."
B) Your italicized section is truly wrong. Unless I'm convinced someone is scum I can't attack them? Um, what? How do you become convinced someone is scum? It just kind of magically happens, then you are free to attack? Pointing out suspicious facets of someone's play and having them respond to those accusations is how you determine whether or not someone is scum. Example: I wasn't convinced Roja was scum, but I was suspicious of his cautious manner in regards to his random vote. I pressured him on that, and have come to the conclusion that I don't think he's scum.
~Tilde~ : S / Male / Other
Abandon Hope :
andelijah : Y / Male / Other
ced395 : B / Male / Other
CropCircles :
Cubus : R / Male / DC (states that his rolename is obvious)
Cyan :
Dagger :
DYH : I / Male / Other
goatrevolt : D / Male / Other
Infinis : F / Male / Other
JqlGirl : H / Male / Other
loran16 : N / Male / DC
Numegil : B / Male / Other
RobRoy :
Roja : T / Male / Marvel (possible same name character confusion?)
Some One :
spotofprey : P / Male / Other
The Mad Tapper : S / Male / Other
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
~Tilde~ : S / Male / Other
Abandon Hope :
andelijah : Y / Male / Other
ced395 : B / Male / Other
CropCircles :
Cubus : R / Male / DC (states that his rolename is obvious)
Cyan :
Dagger :
DYH : I / Male / Other
goatrevolt : D / Male / Other
Infinis : F / Male / Other
JqlGirl : H / Male / Other
loran16 : N / Male / DC
Numegil : B / Male / Other
RobRoy :
Roja : T / Male / Marvel
Some One : S / Male / DC
spotofprey : P / Male / Other
The Mad Tapper : S / Male / Other
Seriously, Ged is horrendously gender-bias
Your post essentially says certain aspects of their play this game exemplify some of their previous scum play (and your HP reference should add that you were a neutral - of note you had similar goals that game). The purpose of this post can only be to convince other's of their scumminess, but apparently not yourself.
Salvation Mafia Clan
Mafia Stats
last updated 03/23/11
As mentioned in post 233, I has having problems accessing the site, and was mostly just checking in. Later on I was able to do a full reread and found myself swayed by the argument that the Marvel/DC/Other claim was unlikely to cause harm and might help. I think someone put forward the argument that if something had a 3% chance of helping and a 1% chance of hurting, we should go for it. That seemed reasonable.
You can learn a lot from discussions of bad ideas. I'd been thinking about the nameclaims as a result of an earlier game that I spectated on 'Tings, so I decided to try and make sure that we were leaving the DATBF phase with that discussion. I never though it was a terribly good idea, though, as you can tell from my wording. Take another look, and keep these points in mind: I wanted discussion on the topic; I did not think it was a good idea. Is there anything in my posts that contradicts either of those points?
I explained why I was keeping quiet on DYH/Cyan, and Roja's vote is something that I could see being done either by scum or townie. It was noteworthy, but not by itself something that made me want to attack him.
Cubus as well, and now Roja, although I'm really curious what that mistake might be. I would suggest that anyone who isn't 100% positive check wikipedia to be sure.
With the number of people who've softclaimed, and with some being suspicious of me, I'll claim here: Male/Other/D.