De-railing the thread into mafia theory discussion more than anything.
Oh well, a few things:
You realize you're arguing against basic principles of math, right? If I give you 1000 possible claims and divide it into several groups, the number of claims is clearly smaller. There is no way this is not possible - there are not infinite superheros, even if there are quite a few.
If there are 1000 possible claims in a group and we divide it into 5 for each person, we are having no impact whatsoever. And it's not like there's any way to cleanly divide people via subclaim. This is not a straight comics game, DC vs Marvel, which is already really really weak as a subclaim, is not going to work, and the addition of others makes such a subclaim useless. Same with gender, and any other subclaim i can think of.
Got a subclaim type I'm missing?
Perhaps you're minorly annoyed as scum when claiming comes up - I am more than minorly annoyed.
Fine. Different temperments i guess.
You must be playing with different people than I am, honestly; I'm not seeing that at all. I'm seeing the exact progression I described above.
1. Someone does something scummy.
2. Discussion/votes.
3. They full-claim.
4. They get lynched or they don't.
I see this progression early. In later games, when the inevitable mass claim or forced claim (due to role actions) happens, the game dissolves into 3. then 3.5 Discussion of the likelihood of certain claims and then 4. Lynch.
#s 1. and # 2. get disregarded when claims get out there. In the early game that's usually not a problem, but a name claim would accelerate us past that point.
I'd be quite suspicious of people drawing up cases otherwise, frankly. By inserting subclaim information pre-emptively, #3 becomes harder to fake; not a method to attack people by - unless there's a gaping discrepency (Krobelus, anyone?).
#3 gets barely harder to fake, if faking is necessary. A Krobelus comparison is baloney for the same reason as an erestor comparison, COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SCOPES. You keep comparing apples to oranges here.
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Conceding the point on scope - it certainly matters in the likelihood scum will screw up from a soft-claim; however, that possibility does still exist so I see no reason not to take it, and I'm unaware of any risk to the town from it. As for name-claiming, I'd still prefer to do that once we have some behavioral evidence under our belts to best determine a claim order.
As for the degeneration of the late game, there should be plenty of behavioral evidence to fall back on at that point and if people aren't using it in conjunction with - as opposed to in lieu of - the claim evidence, they're making a huge mistake.
That was a semi-serious jab at him voting Jqlgirl just because I was pressuring him for not doing so. I asked him that question to see how he would react to it, and get an idea of whether or not he was just try to appease me for the purpose of getting me to unvote, or what.
Apparently there was widespread confusion, because I was never suggesting I thought he had a voting restriction, but people seemed to imply that I was testing the limits of one. I simply wanted to know if he would vote a player just because I asked him to and why he would do or not do that.
At any rate, I think Roja's answers have been pretty satisfactory for now.
In FFVII mafia, when Roja was a bodyguard who could sacrifice himself to resurrect two others (if I read that correctly) - Roja seemed to have played very cautiously, and was very reluctant to cast a vote; the same sort of reluctance he showed here. In post 312 there, he mentions not wanting to throw a vote out, when it was beyond the random phase, and here it's a similar situation.
That being said, in this game of 19 people, with somewhere around 14-15 town...and hundreds and hundreds of superheroes, even softclaiming first letter of name, gender, and DC/Marvel/Other can still leave the scum with an ample amount of choices. Thus, some sort of soft claim may not hurt the town, but I don't think it will exactly help either because the probability is so incredibly small that a scum will claim the same role as a townie. I say a soft claim *may not* hurt the town as opposed to *will not* hurt the town because if a scum soft claims a person with X characteristics, and no one else soft claims a person with X characteristics, he knows he is home free to claim the person he wants to claim. However, after several days (game days) of play when a mass claim list, or role claim list, is organized, a scum without knowledge of others' soft claims may find himself in a worse situation because he has no knowledge of the roles other players have.
Conclusively, I would say lay off the soft claim because it will help the scum find routes to which characters are free to claim, and which characters cannot be claimed.
DYH's failure to see the negative impact this could cause, and subsequent vote of Loran, is going to cause me to Unvote, Vote DYH. I understand his logic regarding how it narrows the field/options/choices/etc. and yadda, yadda, yadda, but it appears to be all crap because this soft claim can REALLY help the scum and can REALLY hurt the town. Nothing like having your team know they are totally home free on day 1, huh?
The fearless TMT finds himself a little wary of SO after that last post. SO points out that the sub-claim would not likely limit our adversaries enough to be worthwhile, yet then goes on to vote DYH based on him ignoring that sub-claims would help them know their limits. It seems suspicious that he says the odds of scum picking an already-taken name are slim by default, yet faults DYH based on the idea that sub-claims could make a meaningful difference in the scum picking safe false-claims.
I'm way to confused by someone's last post....actually. Care to explain your logic?
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@SO: I voted Loran because he made a waffly post; he even admitted as much. He and I have since cleared our difference of opinion on the matter (or at least I think we have), and we're just not on the same side of the fence. Now, if you'd like to explain to me exactly how you think a soft-claim, which the scum would have to partake in as well, is going to help them narrow the field of what to claim as opposed to what they can't, I'm all ears. Your last post made little-to-no-sense.
Also, if you're going to do a background check on Roja, it would behoove you to do the same for me. I think you'll get startling results when you look for soft-claim promotion from me.
SO points out that the sub-claim would not likely limit our adversaries enough to be worthwhile
Correct, and could potentially help them more than hurt them.
Yet then goes on to vote DYH based on him ignoring that sub-claims would help them know their limits.
Correct, they could get an idea of what claim would be open, and have a name picked out they know no one else would have.
It seems suspicious that he says the odds of scum picking an already-taken name are slim by default
Do disagree in this regard? Are there not hundreds of superheroes? Are there not only about 15 town in this game?
yet faults DYH based on the idea that sub-claims could make a meaningful difference in the scum picking safe false-claims.
I see the point you are making. However, the point I am making is the probability of a scum getting caught without the soft-claim is much larger than a scum getting caught with the soft claim. If the scum already know on day one they can sucessfully claim a particular person, then they are home free to claim that person. However, on day X, when a scum has to claim, and the only roles he knows are those of people who died, he may get caught red-handed. Scum will not get caught red-handed in a soft-claim because the roles are just too endless for that to happen.
unvote, vote Some One
Take that, evil-doer!
Look, I'm just saying this soft-claim business may not be nearly as good as it seems. I will do it if the town feels it should be done, but find the manner in which DYH presented the idea to be coming more from an individual with a scum mindset as opposed to a town mindset.
Quote from Loran »
I'm way to confused by someone's last post....actually. Care to explain your logic?
Picking a given company, gender, and first letter, one will almost always find more than one superhero listed, and sometimes, in the case of more popular letters, numerous amounts of people. The logic is as follows: with a soft-claim, scum will be able to know who is free to claim their role, and who needs to exercise caution in doing so. As a result, many scum will escape this vice unscathed. I suppose, if they ran into some trouble, they could even kill the townie player causing conflict and then create a WIFOM scenario the town could get bogged down in. Thus, soft-claiming is a double edged sword because it can easily prevent scum from getting caught red-handed in the future at the same time it locks them into a claim, but this claim they are locked into may or may not actually harm them in any way, shape, or form.
Picking a given company, gender, and first letter, one will almost always find more than one superhero listed, and sometimes, in the case of more popular letters, numerous amounts of people. The logic is as follows: with a soft-claim, scum will be able to know who is free to claim their role, and who needs to exercise caution in doing so.
Errr, i think you have this backwards. I'd imagine the scum would come up with at least2 or 3 claims that say *in the first letter* claim for example...have the first letter they are claiming and/or will claim a letter that has a large amount of possible heroes with that first letter.
Besides, this assumes once again that the scum have incriminating names,which is unknown.
As a result, many scum will escape this vice unscathed. I suppose, if they ran into some trouble, they could even kill the townie player causing conflict and then create a WIFOM scenario the town could get bogged down in.
If this is why they're doing kills, we're probably solid.
Thus, soft-claiming is a double edged sword because it can easily prevent scum from getting caught red-handed in the future at the same time it locks them into a claim, but this claim they are locked into may or may not actually harm them in any way, shape, or form.
The harm you specify is minor at best.
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Correct, and could potentially help them more than hurt them.
Correct, they could get an idea of what claim would be open, and have a name picked out they know no one else would have.
Do disagree in this regard? Are there not hundreds of superheroes? Are there not only about 15 town in this game?
I see the point you are making. However, the point I am making is the probability of a scum getting caught without the soft-claim is much larger than a scum getting caught with the soft claim. If the scum already know on day one they can sucessfully claim a particular person, then they are home free to claim that person. However, on day X, when a scum has to claim, and the only roles he knows are those of people who died, he may get caught red-handed. Scum will not get caught red-handed in a soft-claim because the roles are just too endless for that to happen.
By that same logic - "there are hundreds of superheros and 15 townies" - what are the odds they'll dumb-luck into a counter-claim without a soft-claim and dead bodies, ability uses, etc.?
Almost zero.
The point you're missing is the impact it has on the scum psyche. First of all, they can't all sit around and wait to sub-claim last. You're downplaying this part of the equation altogether - they do have to participate. Secondly, they have to play the game in the mindset of the role they've decided to lock themselves into - which can cause problems when considering night actions (fear of watcher/tracker/etc.). Lastly, it forces them to make choices right now - potentially without communication.
Quote from Some One »
Look, I'm just saying this soft-claim business may not be nearly as good as it seems. I will do it if the town feels it should be done, but find the manner in which DYH presented the idea to be coming more from an individual with a scum mindset as opposed to a town mindset.
Huh, that's funny, I didn't know I presented the idea. I thought Cubus did. But yes, I'm in full support. Explain to me exactly what the "town" mindset you have in mind is, eh?
Quote from Some One »
Picking a given company, gender, and first letter, one will almost always find more than one superhero listed, and sometimes, in the case of more popular letters, numerous amounts of people. The logic is as follows: with a soft-claim, scum will be able to know who is free to claim their role, and who needs to exercise caution in doing so. As a result, many scum will escape this vice unscathed. I suppose, if they ran into some trouble, they could even kill the townie player causing conflict and then create a WIFOM scenario the town could get bogged down in. Thus, soft-claiming is a double edged sword because it can easily prevent scum from getting caught red-handed in the future at the same time it locks them into a claim, but this claim they are locked into may or may not actually harm them in any way, shape, or form.
Again - see my point about running into an open counter-claim. This whole scenario you've presented is, well, ridiculously unlikely.
Oh, and to boot, if they're "exercising caution" when claiming, they're probably adjusting on the fly, which would be a good thing. Easier to spot liars that way.
@SO: I voted Loran because he made a waffly post; he even admitted as much. He and I have since cleared our difference of opinion on the matter (or at least I think we have).
Fair enough.
We're just not on the same side of the fence. Now, if you'd like to explain to me exactly how you think a soft-claim, which the scum would have to partake in as well, is going to help them narrow the field of what to claim as opposed to what they can't, I'm all ears. Your last post made little-to-no-sense.
Let's say, hypothetically, I am claiming to be a Male, Marvel Character whose first name starts with C. Do you realize how many of them there are? Not 1, not 2, not 5, not 10, but 14.
How about a Female, DC character whose first name starts with T? There are 7 of those.
In both cases, if no one else claims the same characteristics, the scum now knows he is home free. However, at a point in the future, if a scum finds himself atop the mass-claim list, without a soft-claim, he has no knowledge whatsoever of what is and is not safe to claim. As a result, he could potentially choose an already chosen role, and the one scum that does this is the one scum that makes holding off on the soft-claim worthwhile.
Maybe I am just not saying it correctly, not verbalizing it how I want to, because it makes a tremendous amount of sense to me. I will gladly run a fake soft-claim, where several people pick arbitrary superheroes, or just characteristics for that matter, to soft-claim (not their own person/characteristics) in attempt to potentially demonstrate what I am trying to say.
Also, if you're going to do a background check on Roja, it would behoove you to do the same for me. I think you'll get startling results when you look for soft-claim promotion from me.
This seems like an interesting comment for you to make because in this game, with everything I am saying, it seems to me, at the very least, that soft-claiming could be detrimental to the town.
@ DYH - in these other games, were there 1000s of possible roles? Did soft-claims narrow down people to perhaps one of 5, 10, or sometimes 20+ possibilities, or was it much slimmer odds?
To answer your last question, it's irrelevant. I don't care how many claims it narrows it down to as long as it does. As long as it forces the hand of the scum into staking a claim to a role and running with it, we have the advantage. Particularly if what they claim doesn't make any sense in the later stages of the game. Just randomly, assume if right now you're scum and you felt safe about "Freeze-man" or something, and there hasn't been any evidence of frost abilities - guess who's screwed? Or is going to have to desperately try to at least find a Male, F, "Acme" Comic character that can fit the bill of what you want to claim. Now, to Loran's point, the scope makes it easier to find said replacement, but the fact that you'd have to make a modification might cause something you've said previously to not connect.
So, what if the scum finds himself locked into that Female, T, DC you mentioned? Now they're committed to playing Russian Roulette with 7 possibilities rather than 100s. You've actually made the point for me.
You're also missing the point of why I suggested you look back, but that's not important. It'll be quite obvious to those in the know that I'm town.
By that same logic - "there are hundreds of superheros and 15 townies" - what are the odds they'll dumb-luck into a counter-claim without a soft-claim and dead bodies, ability uses, etc.?
Almost zero.
Hmm, I see your point.
The point you're missing is the impact it has on the scum psyche. First of all, they can't all sit around and wait to sub-claim last. You're downplaying this part of the equation altogether - they do have to participate.
Do you want to establish an order to this sub-claiming?
Secondly, they have to play the game in the mindset of the role they've decided to lock themselves into - which can cause problems when considering night actions (fear of watcher/tracker/etc.). Lastly, it forces them to make choices right now - potentially without communication.
Thank you for helping me understand where you are coming from. However, how would we go about deciding an order?
Huh, that's funny, I didn't know I presented the idea. I thought Cubus did. But yes, I'm in full support. Explain to me exactly what the "town" mindset you have in mind is, eh?
I was looking at it from the perspective that you are scum, and are advocating this to ensure your team will be as prepared as possible for the future by discounting the effectiveness of the "mass-claim" because you will already have had your roles claimed. However, getting caught in a mass-claim is probably less likely than even having two people soft-claim the same characteristics of just company-first letter or letter-gender.
Again - see my point about running into an open counter-claim. This whole scenario you've presented is, well, ridiculously unlikely.
It certainly appears you are not the scum I thought you were trying to parade the town into doing something that actually would cause more harm to them than good. Unvote - as you said in the case of Loran, I am content.
From an order standpoint, I'd probably advocate lowest post-count to highest, but I'll volunteer to go first, I don't care. I've found that scum tend to be back in lurk-mode again around these parts.
From a name-claim standpoint, as I mentioned earlier, I'd like to have some behavioral analysis under our belts before we took that route.
@ DYH - we keep sarnathing each other because our brains are working faster than we are posting. Anyway, I fully realized the key to this soft-claim is locking the scum into a role early, and in that regard, catching them when things don't seem to add up for whatever reasons that are currently unforseen.
"Please explain what the town mindset for this argument would have been?" since you seem to think my position is that of a scum one.
From an order standpoint, I'd probably advocate lowest post-count to highest, but I'll volunteer to go first, I don't care. I've found that scum tend to be back in lurk-mode again around these parts.
Makes sense. It corresponds excellently that we aren't trying necessarily to get scum to claim the same role as a townie, moreso, we just want to lock the scum in.
From a name-claim standpoint, as I mentioned earlier, I'd like to have some behavioral analysis under our belts before we took that route.
Certainly, the order will be established at a later date, given the circumstances at the time.
Yeah, a scum would indeed have to be pretty stupid to get nailed on the sub-claim itself, it's the manner of keeping up with it and making it fit in that becomes difficult. Although I did witness two of my scum partners completely blow gender claims in Anime Mafia on MTGNews, and they weren't stupid - just careless.
I'm fine with subclaiming. Even if the claims themselves never come up again, there are almost always new leads that stem from the discussions of whether to claim or not.
Wow, the amount of discussion pages nearly doubled in the last 24 hours. First off, unvote my useless random vote. Second off, I wouldn't mind any sort of a claim that reaches consensus among most of us, since that would tend to spur many new leads (which can additionally be referenced later in the game).
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I would like to ask those of you breaking rule [2] to go back and reread the first post. Or rather read it, since I assume your breaking the rules because you didn't read them a first time ;). Thank you.
I would like to ask those of you breaking rule [2] to go back and reread the first post. Or rather read it, since I assume your breaking the rules because you didn't read them a first time ;). Thank you.
This is different that the previous unreasonable suggestion stated reasonably to get more specific in subclaims as days progress. It's enough.
errr, i don't follow. Mind explaining this? It doesn't seem to be english.
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
TMT quickly runs AH's post through his trusty super-deciperer-thingy. He waits anxiously for the answer... OH NO! Smoke is coming out! It looks like this one won't be so easy to crack.
I see the point you are making. However, the point I am making is the probability of a scum getting caught without the soft-claim is much larger than a scum getting caught with the soft claim. If the scum already know on day one they can sucessfully claim a particular person, then they are home free to claim that person. However, on day X, when a scum has to claim, and the only roles he knows are those of people who died, he may get caught red-handed. Scum will not get caught red-handed in a soft-claim because the roles are just too endless for that to happen.
Actually, the opposite of what you claim is true. Forcing scum to commit to a soft claim early limits them. By soft claiming early, they have now selected a specific type of characters they are allowed to claim. Later on in the game, they might screw up and claim something that doesn't fit with their softclaim, and we can lynch them. Perhaps they are softclaiming with the specific intention of claiming a certain character. Maybe by day 4, they will realize that they can't claim that anymore, either because someone already has it, or it wouldn't make sense. Now they are scrambling for a new claim and their options are limited.
However, without the softclaim, they have free reign to do whatever. Maybe scum have a specific name claim in mind on day 1, but on day 4 they realize it's not going to work. They can easily just switch to a different name and nobody is the wiser, because they haven't given any information. Having already softclaimed, though, they will be limited in their choices.
Granted, there's a decent chance it won't help the town at all, however it has the potential to be a benefit, and I can't think of any harm to doing so, except in obscure scenarios. Potential benefit, very unlikely downsides. Seems worth it.
----
@AH's post. I understand what he's saying. He's making a statement about how DYH's stance has changed from what it originally was. DYH originally wanted a "DC/marvel/neither claim followed by a later name claim on day 2" and now is advocating a "DC/marvel/neither claim along with first letter and gender all right now."
AH also makes a valid point about the math bit, however the current state of the soft claiming suitably narrows it down enough to where it will actually make a noticable difference.
---
I think post count is a good order for softclaims, although I'm not sure how much order really matters at all.
PPE: Jqlgirl, we're not mass claiming. The only thing we're claiming is the first letter of your character name, the gender, and whether it is a DC/Marvel/neither brand of superhero.
Action: Work my way down into the Batcave and run that post of AH's through the Bat-Computer
Hmm, cozy.
Quote from Abandon Hope »
This is different that the previous unreasonable suggestion stated reasonably to get more specific in subclaims as days progress. It's enough.
<ping> : Translation - DYH has changed his motivation from a gradual series of minor claims in an effort to trap scum into a straight-on partial claim, which the scum would likely be able to sneak through.
Action: Work my way down into the Batcave and run that post of AH's through the Bat-Computer
Hmm, cozy.
<ping> : Translation - DYH has changed his motivation from a gradual series of minor claims in an effort to trap scum into a straight-on partial claim, which the scum would likely be able to sneak through.
Vote DYH
Errr, a. how do you know thats what he means, (i can't get that reading from AH's statement) and b. how exactly do you believe DYH has done what you're voting him for?
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Action: Work my way down into the Batcave and run that post of AH's through the Bat-Computer
Hmm, cozy.
<ping> : Translation - DYH has changed his motivation from a gradual series of minor claims in an effort to trap scum into a straight-on partial claim, which the scum would likely be able to sneak through.
Vote DYH
BS.
I'd like you (and AH, for that matter) to go point to where I endorsed the first letter, Source, and gender claim; not just referencing it back to Some One who's understanding of it was such. As it were, I endorse soft-claims on the whole, yes, but you are both putting words in my mouth. I did not change the motivation to such - my stance has always been 1st day soft claim, later name claim.
I'd also like you to explain - in counterpoint to what GR and I have already explained - how you think the scum would be able to "sneak through".
Any time you're able to lock scum into a narrower range of claims is a win for the town.
There were a couple mini games a year or so ago where the gender/type claims were effective. Anime mafia on News comes to mind (mafia flubbed gender claims), Sorryguy's Shakespeare-themed game does as well (the name is escaping me).
Games where claims work are games with limited number of characters. Not to say that the scum can't screw up in this game, but I find it just as likely as the scum breaking one or two of the claims.
However, if we do claim, I rather get it over with as fast as possible - ie claiming now and not forcing an order. Especially least posts > most is likely to take 2 pages to get halfway done with the claim.
That's the way I interpreted that statement. AH would have to answer you for that question. I still agree with AH though, DYH changed his reasons for how he wanted to do the mass claim and that's a scummy response.
There are 2 great weapons in the Town's arsenal. A No-kill night 0 and a Day 1 massclaim. A well designed game avoids the first and makes sure the second one doesn't give the town an overwhelming advantage. I think Ged designed this game well, therefore I'm opposed on general principle toward a mass claim day 1, partial or otherwise.
Ya know, I've been in games before where we had no idea of the set-up and actively decided against a day 1 soft claim, only to later realize what a huge help it would be once it was too late to do it effectively.
And I will say that I am 100% for the First Letter, Sorce, Gender claim.
From an order standpoint, I'd probably advocate lowest post-count to highest, but I'll volunteer to go first, I don't care.
Quote from ced395 »
I think we should follow this sort of order in general though (i.e, make a list, and any of the bottom 5-ish unclaimed at any point makes the softclaim).
If there is a majority of people who decide to go along with this soft claim, the instigator of the idea most certainly should go first. I still think it's a bad idea.
EWP: Ok, I just checked my role PM and found something interesting. The flavor in my PM hints that the scum have "disguises". I'm not sure whether that's meant to mean anything, but it's worth considering when approaching nameclaims.
This worrys me.
If the scum have "disguises" and we mass soft claim, wouldn't we only get fake info from scum? We give them more info about us then we receive from them. If the scum are going to have info to fall back on what good will come out of it?
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I'd like you (and AH, for that matter) to go point to where I endorsed the first letter, Source, and gender claim; not just referencing it back to Some One who's understanding of it was such. As it were, I endorse soft-claims on the whole, yes, but you are both putting words in my mouth. I did not change the motivation to such - my stance has always been 1st day soft claim, later name claim.
I'd also like you to explain - in counterpoint to what GR and I have already explained - how you think the scum would be able to "sneak through".
Ok...
Why have you made the assumptions here that this (from PM flavor) information is reliable and that the scum have given safeclaims?
On the side of caution this should be something that should be looked at/discussed before everyone sub claiming. Why else would you have told us in the first place?
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I am trying to be helpful in whatever they were thinking, I think I would have been heckled more if I didn't vote when requested too.
The exchange between who? I dont understand who you are talking about.
I think the point being leveled against you by DYH, GR, etc. was that you were too conscious of yourself, not that you couldn't vote. So when you voted just to prove that you could, it really baffled me.
I don't find myself agreeing with Loran on his opinion on softclaims.
(I would personally go with "Yes, why not" on subclaims, and "Indifferent, maybe slightly leaning no" on nameclaims). However, I disagree with DYH voting Loran for this.
EWP: Ok, I just checked my role PM and found something interesting. The flavor in my PM hints that the scum have "disguises". I'm not sure whether that's meant to mean anything, but it's worth considering when approaching nameclaims.
You unvoted without responding to my answer for your question? Why?
@AH's post. I understand what he's saying. He's making a statement about how DYH's stance has changed from what it originally was. DYH originally wanted a "DC/marvel/neither claim followed by a later name claim on day 2" and now is advocating a "DC/marvel/neither claim along with first letter and gender all right now."
AH also makes a valid point about the math bit, however the current state of the soft claiming suitably narrows it down enough to where it will actually make a noticable difference.
I understand this part of your post and the rationale of it. What I don't understand is the reason you made said post in the first place? This felt entirely like a preemptive defense of AH, since you are quoting him attacking DYH and then saying the rationale behind those attacks are valid?
If the scum have "disguises" and we mass soft claim, wouldn't we only get fake info from scum? We give them more info about us then we receive from them. If the scum are going to have info to fall back on what good will come out of it?
What info do you think we are giving them? As was mentioned, there are multiple possibilities for each soft claim.
I'd also like you to explain - in counterpoint to what GR and I have already explained - how you think the scum would be able to "sneak through".
RobRoy answered this back in post #135, just after the company soft-claim was proposed.
Quote from RobRoy »
There are enough superheros out there that claiming one of these three doesn't interfere with the ability of the scum to fake-claim, but it does give information out to those who know more about the setup.
Quote from DYH, post #138 »
I would advocate the following given the suggestions above:
soft-claim today; name-claim tomorrow once we can establish some level of a claim order based on play.
You endorse a logical, progressive claim strategy in an effort to try and trap scum, even though it’s fairly obvious that such a tactic will likely not limit the mafia’s ability to falseclaim.
Quote from DYH, post #141 »
That's why I want to lock them into subset claims today, then the names tomorrow.
Again, promoting something that seems unlikely to help the town.
Quote from ced395, post #181 »
The flavor in my PM hints that the scum have "disguises". I'm not sure whether that's meant to mean anything, but it's worth considering when approaching nameclaims.
I read this as the scum having mod-provided falseclaims, which is somewhat justified by the mod in the first post:
Quote from Mod »
On another note, DO NOT CLAIM THE QUOTE OR EXTERNAL LINK IN YOUR PM. (The quote is found just below you're character's name.) We can all spread our fanboy love after the game is over; in the mean time false claiming is hard enough as it is.
Quote from DYH, post #182 »
As for name-claiming, I'd still prefer to do that once we have some behavioral evidence under our belts to best determine a claim order.
What “behavioral evidence”? All the post-random phase discussion today has been “yes we should soft claim” and “no, it’s bad idea.” In my opinion, behavioral evidence is better obtained, day 1 anyway, by pressuring a player into a claim, then evaluating that player’s responses, not by tapdancing around like this and hoping someone trips up 2 or 3 days down the road.
Quote from DYH »
I did not change the motivation to such - my stance has always been 1st day soft claim, later name claim.
Almost as if you felt safe and secure in giving out that information? Yeah, you're scum, with a mod-provided falseclaim and you're casually fishing for info under the guise of a pro-town tactic. Vote stands.
What info do you think we are giving them? As was mentioned, there are muliple possibilities for each soft claim.
Using the logic that townies wont lie, and scum will reveal only info from their "disguise" what can we learn?
The scum would have a little bit on everyone that isn't scum. Like you said there are a multiple possibites however we would be narrowing everyone to a letter or whatever is decided, however it is just info the scum would gather. Maybe something later for them to use but who knows for sure.
The town gets this same info WITH the additive bonus of knowing that some of this info being fed to them are lies made from the scum. It could cause the focus of the town onto things that are wasted. Everyone would be "locked" into a claim but with the scum having false claims it dosen't matter.
What would the scum get with the info? Anything given to them as they would have nothing to lose/give up for it.
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I don't think a Marvel/DC/Other claim will actually do any good. It doesn't narrow things down at all. Giving enough information that we lock people into claims would probably give away more information than we're comfortable with.
Also, on the topic of claiming single letters: how is it determined? Are we using real names, or titles? If titles, how would someone like The Incredible Hulk be shown?
RobRoy answered this back in post #135, just after the company soft-claim was proposed.
You endorse a logical, progressive claim strategy in an effort to try and trap scum, even though it’s fairly obvious that such a tactic will likely not limit the mafia’s ability to falseclaim.
Again, promoting something that seems unlikely to help the town.
Again - I'm still waiting for you to show how it won't be beneficial to the town when both Goatrevolt and I have explained how it will; you can argue it until you're blue in the face, but soft-claims do limit the false-claiming ability of the scum. You're flat-out wrong.
Quote from Tilde »
What “behavioral evidence”? All the post-random phase discussion today has been “yes we should soft claim” and “no, it’s bad idea.” In my opinion, behavioral evidence is better obtained, day 1 anyway, by pressuring a player into a claim, then evaluating that player’s responses, not by tapdancing around like this and hoping someone trips up 2 or 3 days down the road.
Considering I was advocating a day 2 name-claim, the behavioral evidence in question would stem from the Day One lynch and all other conversation as well as the results of Night One.
Do you not think the latter part of this paragraph is bound to happen anyway? It's not as if we're not still going to play regular mafia post-softlclaim.
Quote from Tilde »
Almost as if you felt safe and secure in giving out that information? Yeah, you're scum, with a mod-provided falseclaim and you're casually fishing for info under the guise of a pro-town tactic. Vote stands.
You're entitled to your opinion, however wrong it might be. You've still not shown how what I've suggested is going to in any way hurt the town.
I loled at Cubus' vote. Seriously man, DYH's standard argument with a scum partner lasts at least a few more posts, involves a much more heated argument, and the person he argues with is in fact his SCUM PARTNER.
Given that i'm not his scum partner, it's not looking like scum DYH there.
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Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
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If there are 1000 possible claims in a group and we divide it into 5 for each person, we are having no impact whatsoever. And it's not like there's any way to cleanly divide people via subclaim. This is not a straight comics game, DC vs Marvel, which is already really really weak as a subclaim, is not going to work, and the addition of others makes such a subclaim useless. Same with gender, and any other subclaim i can think of.
Got a subclaim type I'm missing?
Fine. Different temperments i guess.
I see this progression early. In later games, when the inevitable mass claim or forced claim (due to role actions) happens, the game dissolves into 3. then 3.5 Discussion of the likelihood of certain claims and then 4. Lynch.
#s 1. and # 2. get disregarded when claims get out there. In the early game that's usually not a problem, but a name claim would accelerate us past that point.
#3 gets barely harder to fake, if faking is necessary. A Krobelus comparison is baloney for the same reason as an erestor comparison, COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SCOPES. You keep comparing apples to oranges here.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
As for the degeneration of the late game, there should be plenty of behavioral evidence to fall back on at that point and if people aren't using it in conjunction with - as opposed to in lieu of - the claim evidence, they're making a huge mistake.
Unvote; I'm content.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
That was a semi-serious jab at him voting Jqlgirl just because I was pressuring him for not doing so. I asked him that question to see how he would react to it, and get an idea of whether or not he was just try to appease me for the purpose of getting me to unvote, or what.
Apparently there was widespread confusion, because I was never suggesting I thought he had a voting restriction, but people seemed to imply that I was testing the limits of one. I simply wanted to know if he would vote a player just because I asked him to and why he would do or not do that.
At any rate, I think Roja's answers have been pretty satisfactory for now.
Unvote, Vote Robroy
That being said, in this game of 19 people, with somewhere around 14-15 town...and hundreds and hundreds of superheroes, even softclaiming first letter of name, gender, and DC/Marvel/Other can still leave the scum with an ample amount of choices. Thus, some sort of soft claim may not hurt the town, but I don't think it will exactly help either because the probability is so incredibly small that a scum will claim the same role as a townie. I say a soft claim *may not* hurt the town as opposed to *will not* hurt the town because if a scum soft claims a person with X characteristics, and no one else soft claims a person with X characteristics, he knows he is home free to claim the person he wants to claim. However, after several days (game days) of play when a mass claim list, or role claim list, is organized, a scum without knowledge of others' soft claims may find himself in a worse situation because he has no knowledge of the roles other players have.
Conclusively, I would say lay off the soft claim because it will help the scum find routes to which characters are free to claim, and which characters cannot be claimed.
DYH's failure to see the negative impact this could cause, and subsequent vote of Loran, is going to cause me to Unvote, Vote DYH. I understand his logic regarding how it narrows the field/options/choices/etc. and yadda, yadda, yadda, but it appears to be all crap because this soft claim can REALLY help the scum and can REALLY hurt the town. Nothing like having your team know they are totally home free on day 1, huh?
unvote, vote Some One
Take that, evil-doer!
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Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Also, if you're going to do a background check on Roja, it would behoove you to do the same for me. I think you'll get startling results when you look for soft-claim promotion from me.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Correct, and could potentially help them more than hurt them.
Correct, they could get an idea of what claim would be open, and have a name picked out they know no one else would have.
Do disagree in this regard? Are there not hundreds of superheroes? Are there not only about 15 town in this game?
I see the point you are making. However, the point I am making is the probability of a scum getting caught without the soft-claim is much larger than a scum getting caught with the soft claim. If the scum already know on day one they can sucessfully claim a particular person, then they are home free to claim that person. However, on day X, when a scum has to claim, and the only roles he knows are those of people who died, he may get caught red-handed. Scum will not get caught red-handed in a soft-claim because the roles are just too endless for that to happen.
Look, I'm just saying this soft-claim business may not be nearly as good as it seems. I will do it if the town feels it should be done, but find the manner in which DYH presented the idea to be coming more from an individual with a scum mindset as opposed to a town mindset.
Picking a given company, gender, and first letter, one will almost always find more than one superhero listed, and sometimes, in the case of more popular letters, numerous amounts of people. The logic is as follows: with a soft-claim, scum will be able to know who is free to claim their role, and who needs to exercise caution in doing so. As a result, many scum will escape this vice unscathed. I suppose, if they ran into some trouble, they could even kill the townie player causing conflict and then create a WIFOM scenario the town could get bogged down in. Thus, soft-claiming is a double edged sword because it can easily prevent scum from getting caught red-handed in the future at the same time it locks them into a claim, but this claim they are locked into may or may not actually harm them in any way, shape, or form.
More coming in another post.
Errr, i think you have this backwards. I'd imagine the scum would come up with at least2 or 3 claims that say *in the first letter* claim for example...have the first letter they are claiming and/or will claim a letter that has a large amount of possible heroes with that first letter.
Besides, this assumes once again that the scum have incriminating names,which is unknown.
If this is why they're doing kills, we're probably solid.
The harm you specify is minor at best.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
By that same logic - "there are hundreds of superheros and 15 townies" - what are the odds they'll dumb-luck into a counter-claim without a soft-claim and dead bodies, ability uses, etc.?
Almost zero.
The point you're missing is the impact it has on the scum psyche. First of all, they can't all sit around and wait to sub-claim last. You're downplaying this part of the equation altogether - they do have to participate. Secondly, they have to play the game in the mindset of the role they've decided to lock themselves into - which can cause problems when considering night actions (fear of watcher/tracker/etc.). Lastly, it forces them to make choices right now - potentially without communication.
Huh, that's funny, I didn't know I presented the idea. I thought Cubus did. But yes, I'm in full support. Explain to me exactly what the "town" mindset you have in mind is, eh?
Again - see my point about running into an open counter-claim. This whole scenario you've presented is, well, ridiculously unlikely.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Fair enough.
Let's say, hypothetically, I am claiming to be a Male, Marvel Character whose first name starts with C. Do you realize how many of them there are? Not 1, not 2, not 5, not 10, but 14.
How about a Female, DC character whose first name starts with T? There are 7 of those.
In both cases, if no one else claims the same characteristics, the scum now knows he is home free. However, at a point in the future, if a scum finds himself atop the mass-claim list, without a soft-claim, he has no knowledge whatsoever of what is and is not safe to claim. As a result, he could potentially choose an already chosen role, and the one scum that does this is the one scum that makes holding off on the soft-claim worthwhile.
Maybe I am just not saying it correctly, not verbalizing it how I want to, because it makes a tremendous amount of sense to me. I will gladly run a fake soft-claim, where several people pick arbitrary superheroes, or just characteristics for that matter, to soft-claim (not their own person/characteristics) in attempt to potentially demonstrate what I am trying to say.
This seems like an interesting comment for you to make because in this game, with everything I am saying, it seems to me, at the very least, that soft-claiming could be detrimental to the town.
@ DYH - in these other games, were there 1000s of possible roles? Did soft-claims narrow down people to perhaps one of 5, 10, or sometimes 20+ possibilities, or was it much slimmer odds?
So, what if the scum finds himself locked into that Female, T, DC you mentioned? Now they're committed to playing Russian Roulette with 7 possibilities rather than 100s. You've actually made the point for me.
You're also missing the point of why I suggested you look back, but that's not important. It'll be quite obvious to those in the know that I'm town.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
"Please explain what the town mindset for this argument would have been?" since you seem to think my position is that of a scum one.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Hmm, I see your point.
Do you want to establish an order to this sub-claiming?
Thank you for helping me understand where you are coming from. However, how would we go about deciding an order?
I was looking at it from the perspective that you are scum, and are advocating this to ensure your team will be as prepared as possible for the future by discounting the effectiveness of the "mass-claim" because you will already have had your roles claimed. However, getting caught in a mass-claim is probably less likely than even having two people soft-claim the same characteristics of just company-first letter or letter-gender.
It certainly appears you are not the scum I thought you were trying to parade the town into doing something that actually would cause more harm to them than good. Unvote - as you said in the case of Loran, I am content.
From a name-claim standpoint, as I mentioned earlier, I'd like to have some behavioral analysis under our belts before we took that route.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
I believe I answered this in my last post.
Makes sense. It corresponds excellently that we aren't trying necessarily to get scum to claim the same role as a townie, moreso, we just want to lock the scum in.
Certainly, the order will be established at a later date, given the circumstances at the time.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
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(='.'=)This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
(")_(")signature to help him gain world domination!
andelijah - 1 (Roja)
CropCircles - 1 (Dagger)
Cubus - 2 (RobRoy, Cubus)
DYH - 1 (Some One)
JqlGirl - 1 (infinis)
RobRoy - 1 (goatrevolt)
Some One - 2 (Abandon Hope, The Mad Tapper)
The Mad Tapper - 2 (andelijah, CropCircles)
I would like to ask those of you breaking rule [2] to go back and reread the first post. Or rather read it, since I assume your breaking the rules because you didn't read them a first time ;). Thank you.
...yeah.
[The Family]
Everybody group sex, group sex, group sex...
Ya dog!
Naw dog!
Ya dog!
Vote: DYH
Also: On math. Just cause something changes, doesn't mean that change is relevant.
No on any subclaim. An ocean in half is still an ocean, and I'm uncomfortable of talk of taking leads from subclaims. That's nonsense.
Can you please decipher the enigma that encompasses this line? I've read it 6 times and I am as lost as Cyan is when it comes to drink choices.
errr, i don't follow. Mind explaining this? It doesn't seem to be english.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Record: 3-2
Simpsons Mafia (Newbie) - Vanilla Mafia - Win
The Fiasco Corporation - Town Reporter - Loss
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Danger City Mafia - Vanilla Town - Win
Looks like you've lined up to be the second volunteer for the soft-claim.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Actually, the opposite of what you claim is true. Forcing scum to commit to a soft claim early limits them. By soft claiming early, they have now selected a specific type of characters they are allowed to claim. Later on in the game, they might screw up and claim something that doesn't fit with their softclaim, and we can lynch them. Perhaps they are softclaiming with the specific intention of claiming a certain character. Maybe by day 4, they will realize that they can't claim that anymore, either because someone already has it, or it wouldn't make sense. Now they are scrambling for a new claim and their options are limited.
However, without the softclaim, they have free reign to do whatever. Maybe scum have a specific name claim in mind on day 1, but on day 4 they realize it's not going to work. They can easily just switch to a different name and nobody is the wiser, because they haven't given any information. Having already softclaimed, though, they will be limited in their choices.
Granted, there's a decent chance it won't help the town at all, however it has the potential to be a benefit, and I can't think of any harm to doing so, except in obscure scenarios. Potential benefit, very unlikely downsides. Seems worth it.
----
@AH's post. I understand what he's saying. He's making a statement about how DYH's stance has changed from what it originally was. DYH originally wanted a "DC/marvel/neither claim followed by a later name claim on day 2" and now is advocating a "DC/marvel/neither claim along with first letter and gender all right now."
AH also makes a valid point about the math bit, however the current state of the soft claiming suitably narrows it down enough to where it will actually make a noticable difference.
---
I think post count is a good order for softclaims, although I'm not sure how much order really matters at all.
PPE: Jqlgirl, we're not mass claiming. The only thing we're claiming is the first letter of your character name, the gender, and whether it is a DC/Marvel/neither brand of superhero.
Hmm, cozy.
<ping> : Translation - DYH has changed his motivation from a gradual series of minor claims in an effort to trap scum into a straight-on partial claim, which the scum would likely be able to sneak through.
Vote DYH
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
Errr, a. how do you know thats what he means, (i can't get that reading from AH's statement) and b. how exactly do you believe DYH has done what you're voting him for?
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
BS.
I'd like you (and AH, for that matter) to go point to where I endorsed the first letter, Source, and gender claim; not just referencing it back to Some One who's understanding of it was such. As it were, I endorse soft-claims on the whole, yes, but you are both putting words in my mouth. I did not change the motivation to such - my stance has always been 1st day soft claim, later name claim.
I'd also like you to explain - in counterpoint to what GR and I have already explained - how you think the scum would be able to "sneak through".
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
However, if we do claim, I rather get it over with as fast as possible - ie claiming now and not forcing an order. Especially least posts > most is likely to take 2 pages to get halfway done with the claim.
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That's the way I interpreted that statement. AH would have to answer you for that question. I still agree with AH though, DYH changed his reasons for how he wanted to do the mass claim and that's a scummy response.
There are 2 great weapons in the Town's arsenal. A No-kill night 0 and a Day 1 massclaim. A well designed game avoids the first and makes sure the second one doesn't give the town an overwhelming advantage. I think Ged designed this game well, therefore I'm opposed on general principle toward a mass claim day 1, partial or otherwise.
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
And I will say that I am 100% for the First Letter, Sorce, Gender claim.
[The Family]
If there is a majority of people who decide to go along with this soft claim, the instigator of the idea most certainly should go first. I still think it's a bad idea.
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
After that, idc, post order is fine, although I realize that could be precieved as self serving.
SCUM:
spotofprey
Numegil
RobRoy
Goatrevolt
Cubus
Serial Killer
andelijah
TOWN
~Tilde~
Abandon Hope
ced395
Dagger
Infinis
JqlGirl
loran16
Cyan
DYH
Roja
Some One
The Mad Tapper
~insert hidden player~
MOD GIMMICK
CropCircles
[The Family]
This worrys me.
If the scum have "disguises" and we mass soft claim, wouldn't we only get fake info from scum? We give them more info about us then we receive from them. If the scum are going to have info to fall back on what good will come out of it?
unvote
Still waiting.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
On the side of caution this should be something that should be looked at/discussed before everyone sub claiming. Why else would you have told us in the first place?
I think the point being leveled against you by DYH, GR, etc. was that you were too conscious of yourself, not that you couldn't vote. So when you voted just to prove that you could, it really baffled me.
In case of?
You unvoted without responding to my answer for your question? Why?
How about second or third letter, for additional pressure on the scums? I am fine with said method of softclaims.
I understand this part of your post and the rationale of it. What I don't understand is the reason you made said post in the first place? This felt entirely like a preemptive defense of AH, since you are quoting him attacking DYH and then saying the rationale behind those attacks are valid?
What info do you think we are giving them? As was mentioned, there are multiple possibilities for each soft claim.
I don't get that feeling from them. Rationale?
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RobRoy answered this back in post #135, just after the company soft-claim was proposed.
You endorse a logical, progressive claim strategy in an effort to try and trap scum, even though it’s fairly obvious that such a tactic will likely not limit the mafia’s ability to falseclaim.
Again, promoting something that seems unlikely to help the town.
I read this as the scum having mod-provided falseclaims, which is somewhat justified by the mod in the first post:
What “behavioral evidence”? All the post-random phase discussion today has been “yes we should soft claim” and “no, it’s bad idea.” In my opinion, behavioral evidence is better obtained, day 1 anyway, by pressuring a player into a claim, then evaluating that player’s responses, not by tapdancing around like this and hoping someone trips up 2 or 3 days down the road.
Almost as if you felt safe and secure in giving out that information? Yeah, you're scum, with a mod-provided falseclaim and you're casually fishing for info under the guise of a pro-town tactic. Vote stands.
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
Using the logic that townies wont lie, and scum will reveal only info from their "disguise" what can we learn?
The scum would have a little bit on everyone that isn't scum. Like you said there are a multiple possibites however we would be narrowing everyone to a letter or whatever is decided, however it is just info the scum would gather. Maybe something later for them to use but who knows for sure.
The town gets this same info WITH the additive bonus of knowing that some of this info being fed to them are lies made from the scum. It could cause the focus of the town onto things that are wasted. Everyone would be "locked" into a claim but with the scum having false claims it dosen't matter.
What would the scum get with the info? Anything given to them as they would have nothing to lose/give up for it.
I don't think a Marvel/DC/Other claim will actually do any good. It doesn't narrow things down at all. Giving enough information that we lock people into claims would probably give away more information than we're comfortable with.
Also, on the topic of claiming single letters: how is it determined? Are we using real names, or titles? If titles, how would someone like The Incredible Hulk be shown?
Again - I'm still waiting for you to show how it won't be beneficial to the town when both Goatrevolt and I have explained how it will; you can argue it until you're blue in the face, but soft-claims do limit the false-claiming ability of the scum. You're flat-out wrong.
Considering I was advocating a day 2 name-claim, the behavioral evidence in question would stem from the Day One lynch and all other conversation as well as the results of Night One.
Do you not think the latter part of this paragraph is bound to happen anyway? It's not as if we're not still going to play regular mafia post-softlclaim.
You're entitled to your opinion, however wrong it might be. You've still not shown how what I've suggested is going to in any way hurt the town.
That's a difficult sell since I'm not scum.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Given that i'm not his scum partner, it's not looking like scum DYH there.
GTHC, GTH (ES!)
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity