ok, lots happening here. srsly, I leave you for 2 days and this is what happens?
1st, HOw did EP get off so easily? It appears to me that it was due to a vanilla claim and gaming the mod, which doesn't strike me as exceptionally good reasoning.
Claiming using information from my PM != Gaming the mod.
Next, EP started faliling a bit before getting hold of something on Lamp, which although is suspicious, not as much as he makes out in my books.
It's not flailing to say LD looks scummy followed by a pbpa. If you are referring to the Keyof Destiny vote, that was before LD posted.
None of that is flailing, it was just moving along with the new information.
It seems to me that after Kpaca voted Callaway, and everybody seemed to latch onto him as he's an experienced player.... still suspicious. Anyone considered the possibilty of saving a scumbuddy?[/quote[
He's the one that forced the claim. Being responsible for a scumbuddy to claim is a bad idea, especially if you know the scum that will claim is inexpirienced.
[quote]More scumminess from EP:
apart from a brief conversation between them , what would lead you to being so suspicious? Think you're overreacting a bit there. and, you seem to be 'deeply suspicious' of LD anyways, and this just strikes me as trying to divert attention elsewheres.
It's not the conversation, it's the point that kpaca brought up about not questioning him on it. That is the link, not the actual words thmeselves.
If you're not positive, why are you voting? a claim at this stage will do very little, unless you are going to game the mod which is never a good idea.#
Because it's useless to split the town apart at this stage. LD is still my #1 for scum, but Callaway's post was scumy. Also, his appearence online without any post at all is a scum tell as well, though it's a lot less of a scum tell if he isn't within claiming territory.
However, I do find the evidence on Callway pretty incriminating, particularly the not posting when he was on...
If he does turn up scum, I think my suspicion on EP and Kpaca will be very much diminshed, but I'll keep my vote for now: I want to hear what he has to say and still find the aforementioned scummier, they just seem to be bandwagoning him.
Obviously if he's town the reverse will happen =]
I'd hope you wouldn't switch your vote right now bringing him wihtin hammering range.
Aside form that, saying if Callaway is town kpaca and I must be scum is an extreme link. Our fates are not that closely tied to each other.
Lastly, anyone else noticed Ace being scummy?
No.
#138 Unvoting to prevent a lynch of someone pretty scummy, that simply slowed the game down.
If by advocating removing me from L-1, then that is not a scummy action. Putting anyone at L-1 without a claim is a bad idea as discussed several times in the past few pages. It shows an overeagerness to lynch, which is not pro-town.
Also, I put his post into perspective in answering Cantripmancer. He's not saying I'm not scum (in fact he said I still look scummy at this point in the game), he's just syaing a rushed lynch is pointless right now as well. It didn't slow down the game at all, especially considering the last few pages of discussion after my claim.
for now, as I want to see what happens with Callaway, then if we get to find out what EP really is.
I see...
Again, the link between Callaway being scum and me being town or vice-versa is nonexistant. I'm not the one pegging him as the best choice for scum, I'm unfamiliar with scumhunting in that mannor and I had to read two sepparate threads to see kpaca's point, and I'm simply applying anough pressure for a claim which can only help him if he's town.
1) I think I understand, but will somebody please define "gaming the mod".
2) Toastboy, please identify where you see E_P gaming the mod.
3) In no way is E_P off the hook, just off the immediate hook. I agree that lynching either E_P or Callaway will probably give us plenty of information at this point, but I think that E_P under fire acted better than Callaway under fire.
I do find it interesting that E_P delayed his claim until his votecount was official...could the 2-hour delay be an effort to buy time to devise a believable false claim?
First off, I want to quote a post from Cantripmancer a few pages back:
Quote from Cantripmancer »
3) The next question comes from Callaway's behavior, which may not be the best example of what should be done, but is it considered bad form (or bad strategy) to put someone at L-1 (within "hammering" range -- is that a banhammer-reference?) before the group has a chance to discuss things because at L-1 a scum can lock in the lynch of a townie with a very fast post (or a town can jump on the bandwagon and lynch before proper discussion has been made)? It sounds like the person who contributes the vote to go from L-1 to L-0 immediately assumes a significant level of suspicion, so being scum and locking in a lynch feels fairly dangerous.
This perfectly explains why I didn't vote E_P earlier on: From what I've seen, hammering someone (or putting them at L-1) tends to be seen as scummy the next day.
The reason I did not claim earlier (around 10:30, I believe) was that I was about 2 or 3 pages behind at that point - I just now finished reading the whole discussion about me. Anyways, my claim is:
Hoggmeiser
Butler to the recently deceased king, robbed his castle while he was away and took all his most valuable stuff. After Laharl comes back, he was not happy, but spared your life, making you very loyal to him.
Vanilla townie
Is that enough?
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This perfectly explains why I didn't vote E_P earlier on: From what I've seen, hammering someone (or putting them at L-1) tends to be seen as scummy the next day.
That is enough for me to be pretty sure your scum.
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This perfectly explains why I didn't vote E_P earlier on: From what I've seen, hammering someone (or putting them at L-1) tends to be seen as scummy the next day.
On top of being a terrible reason not to vote (townies don't need to be as "safe"), you're defending a scummy action itself.
If you think somone deserves a lynch, then vote them. As you still have not voted for me post claim, you are clearly scum.
I think the claim is false. So does Guardman and EP. What do you think?
I am not sure if I believe EP's claim, but he is scumhunting pretty hard.
Callaways claim fits flavorfully with the game and mafia game, but his behavior seems scummy.
So I have no idea. I am inclined to vote Callaway because of behavior though.
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Mafia Stats:
2/3 Loss(#28 Town Disgaea,)
1/3 Wins(#29 Chess replacement, #1 Town GCF)
Well the problem is that we don't know for sure yet if the roles (ie. Scum and Townie) are flavor related or not. Lynching EP would be the best way to find that out since flavorwise Hoggmeiser could be either scum or townie pretty easily.
But in that same vain while EP acts somewhat like scum, Callaway seems very much like scum. Which is why I am voting for the more likely scum at the moment.
I agree with kpaca there isn't much more to discuss, unless someone can come up with a good reason Callaway shouldn't be lynched.
Well the problem is that we don't know for sure yet if the roles (ie. Scum and Townie) are flavor related or not. Lynching EP would be the best way to find that out since flavorwise Hoggmeiser could be either scum or townie pretty easily.
But in that same vain while EP acts somewhat like scum, Callaway seems very much like scum. Which is why I am voting for the more likely scum at the moment.
I agree with kpaca there isn't much more to discuss, unless someone can come up with a good reason Callaway shouldn't be lynched.
Other than Hoggmeiser is an ally after being evil, I can't think of anything.
My vein of thought is that if Callaway comes up Townie, then EP should be scum. I can't come up with anything other than that right now. So,
Vote: Callaway
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Mafia Stats:
2/3 Loss(#28 Town Disgaea,)
1/3 Wins(#29 Chess replacement, #1 Town GCF)
In the shadows cast by the flickering torchlight, the group glares suspiciously at Callaway. His large, brutish form certainly does him no favors in attempting to dissuade your suspicions.
"Hey you," says Guardman. "I saw you licking your lips just now. You planning on eating us, or something?"
"Is that so?" says Ace, squinting at a small object clenched in one of Callaway's fists. "Why, then, are you clutching a jar of basil?" Callaway lets out another nervous snort and reflexively tenses his hand. With a loud cracking noise, a cloud of spice emerges from his fist and settles all over him.
A few seconds pass in silence, and then there comes the loud noise of indrawn breath. Callaway's nostrils flare, and a small trail of spittle emerges from his mouth.
"Excuse me for a moment, please," he says as he shuffles off into the darkness.
As the group peers into the shadows with horrified looks on their faces, the room is filled with the sound of loud chewing, punctuated alternately with screams of agony and of ecstasy. Once the noise ceases, Emo_Pinata ventures forward with a torch only to see a set of pork-like ribs, picked utterly clean.
In a feat both disgusting and logic-defying, Callaway (Hoggmeiser, Greedy Demon) appears to have eaten himself.
It is now Night 1. All night actions are due within 72 hours of this post.
There is no dawn, to speak of, in the Netherworld. Certainly, there is a brief time during which it ceases to be night and becomes day instead, a time at which cockatrices across the Netherworld make a cacophonous racket, but it is hard to liken it to the majestic quality assigned to the event by humans.
At this particular sort-of-dawn, the Overlord's ten remaining subjects gather once again the audience chamber, to go about the messy business of succession. Ten, indeed, and not eleven - for there has been mischief on the previous night. Near the chamber's main window, the group happens across the body of Ace, lying face down on the ground with a comically large arrow through his throat.
A closer look at his features reveals an elegant face, and yet one that seems just vaguely ridiculous in some intangible way. Unfortunately for the good ones among the group (good, of course, being a relative term in this case), this strange, silly man also possessed a keen insight.
Ace (Mid-Boss, Comic Relief "Rival"), the Town Cop, has been killed.
The survivors fall silent for a moment of reverence.
"I call his stuff," adds Guardman.
It is now Day 2. With 10 players alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
The more I have read LD's post the more I like him for scum. Here's the two posts explaining his vote:
1) Flavor on me nameclaiming the final boss of Disgaea as town:
Quote:
Originally Posted by LampDwellr Being a bad guy would usually make a person more likely to be mafia in a highly flavored setup like this one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LampDwellr EBWOP: Vote Emo Pinata.
I'm guessing he didn't know?
It's hard to argue that he was not thinking this line of logic when voting. This is his response ot me asking him why he changed his mind about flavor:
Quote:
Originally Posted by LampDwellr What I said there was not mutually exclusive. Tending to ignore stuff and having actual issues with the stuff that's there--whatever that may be--can happen at the same time. In this case they are.
Complete and utter WIFOM.
Now I wouldn't go after him for using WIFOM logic, but there is just too many other posts in this game alone about how much LampDwellr hates considering flavor in games:
Example 1: Telling Guardman not to become Seppel
Quote:
Originally Posted by LampDwellr For what it's worth, posting in the third person can look like you're trying to play this as a flavor game rather than a "game" game. It is precisely the latter. Stop vorthosing or risk becoming the new Seppel.
Example 2: Telling Callaway to avoid considering flavor (14 minutes before voting for flavor reasons)
Quote:
Originally Posted by LampDwellr If they wanted the claim to be a good one, then there's a good chance they would. I tend to ignore flavor-related info when it is provided in claims because it could be real or fake.
I will say that this game is the sort that is likely to have the names and flavor actually match up with alignment, because there is a clear flavor to Disgaea.
These two are far apart and typical of LD's point of view. It seems odd that he would vote citing flavor reasons when he didn't believe in them to begin with. That leads to his second line of reasoning (the "real" reason he voted for me)
2) Voting for me for hating the massclaim idea:
Quote:
Originally Posted by LampDwellr Triple posting is TECH!
Sorry.
I'm voting you because I h8 your version of the massclaim plan and your defenses relating to it.
Now this is a reasonable reason that is cited by anyone else on the wagon. I have a mjor problem in this saying this:
Example 1: Liking the sound of a mass claim at the time it was brought up
Quote:
Originally Posted by LampDwellr A better proposal would be for you to go first and then for us to die roll every time to see who will go next. Then people can't make fake claims based on who is yet to go.
I'm not saying I support this, but that seems like a workable way to put some scum under pressure.
Are you arguing for a full claim including name and abilities? What if it were just name? What if it were just abilities?
He is now standing on the fence about the masslcaim, but shows support to the idea. It was followed up later with:
Quote:
Originally Posted by LampDwellr I actually didn't hate the idea of mass claiming but mass claiming power-role only (with the laughable "townie" piece included) is either horribly misguided or someone with a little experience trying to direct the town in an awful direction.
Not liking the way you're handling this, Emo.
Again, he then confirms that he doesn't hate the idea of a massclaim, but not the power role version. While these two seem innocent, it's a weak reason to actually vote post claim under different logic to hide the "real logic. The timing, reasoning, and actual vote are all vastly mistimed and placed which does not make much sense here.
For what it's worth here's my current scumlist:
LampDwellr
Guardman (Look at the conversation between lamp and Guardman right before voting for me. It looks like a group talking to each other.)
Timlock Smash (I don't like the barned in lurking vote, but it's not much to go on.)
Calloway (kpaca makes sense, and LD offered a weak defense for him.)
I also have a list of who I think is the most likely town:
Cantripmancer (Obvious newb ala Taylor)
kpaca (Honestly spending his efforts scumhunting)
lostandthedamned (Same as Cantripmancer, but to a lesser degree)
I'm not satisfied with LD tossing out some weak WIFOM to defend his
vote.
Of course, my new scum list is:
LampDwellr
Guardman
I'm not so hot on Timlock Smash as I was, but LampDwellr and Guardman are still extremely high.
Hmm... EP put together a pretty good composite of the claim against Lampdwellr. He is definitely rising in suspicion, but I am not at that point yet, since I still have other FoS as well.
Anyways new suspected scum list:
Lampdwellr: Current most likely scum at this point
Emo Pinata: For starting the mass claim
Metal Pipe: Because Sephiroth Owa seemed scummy and didn't post, so all we have to off of is that first posts really.
Suspected Townie:
Guardman - obviously
That is all currently.
kpaca was downgraded because he was wrong with Callaway, and even though he provided convincing evidence. He has been taken off of my suspected townie list right now.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if one more townie bites the dust, isn't there a good chance that the mafia win? If there's 3/10 mafia, and 3/7 townies bite the dust by end of Day 2, then the mafia nightkill a townie and mafia = town = mafia win, correct? Soooo, lynching a townie today is sorta a bad thing (unless a power role makes a save of some sort...).
As Toastboy states, E_P was a strong candidate until Kpaca appeared on the scene, and since Kpaca was a replacement, I could very easily see E_P and ??? flailing as mafia. Suddenly Kpaca shows up on the scene and slamhammers the focus to Callaway, who turns out to be innocent (well...as innocent as any of these characters seem to be). Seems pretty fishy. Points against this theory: Kpaca initially put E_P at L-2, which is a pretty risky position to put your fellow scum in (granted, he unvoted 4 hours later...but still seems risky). And both Kpaca and E_P have been actively involved in discussion and (apparent) scumhunting.
LampDwellr certainly has acted scummy...but so was Callaway. Right now logic says to go with LampDwellr, but my gut says to go with my instinct (my first suspicion: E_P, and potentially Kpaca). Unfortunately, as mentioned above, one more townlynch and we can probably hang up the hat on this one...gotta play this very carefully...
FoS: LampDwellr, or (Emo_Pinata and Kpaca)
(I agree that the link between E_P and Kpaca isn't solidly defined, but it certainly was unfortunate for the two of you that your "sure thing" mafia pick turned out town...or maybe not so unfortunate, if you really are mafia.)
Okay, so I did my read through, the most obviously scummy things to me are:
E_P's pushing for a D1 Mass claim. I haven't played much mafia, but what's the point of letting scum know who we are?
Kpaca's 2nd post explanation-less vote, which was outside of the random phase, which he only later defends with "There was a scummy post on the very first page."
Timlock Post 111 "I concur, do you concur?"
LampDwellr's let's-game-the-mod flavor arguments. I don't know anything about Disgaea, (in fact I've never seen that word outside this thread) but I do not like throwing around suspicion based on role. You seem to be GREAT at getting heat on yourself, but let's try not to
Kpaca's argument that FoS is scummy and voting is town. Especially at L-2, voting is something I personally don't do unless I'm fairly certain. I would expect no different from another player.
talking about how your suspicious of someone but then not being willing to commit yourself totally to a vote ... is a phenomanal scum tell.
I disagree. Voting ends games, whereas FoS allows the day to continue with more discussion.
Lets go into hypothetical mode here. If Callaway hammered (or pushed to L-1), and E_P was town, Callaway would be suspicious. Because Callaway DIDN'T Hammer (or push to L-1) he was suspicious. What was the right move? Maybe you'll have to explain this to me, maybe I'm just being dense, but this seems like WIFOM. "He didn't vote, so he wasn't a part of the lynch. But isn't that what he WANTS us to think?"
Kpaca initiated the bandwagon that would eventually end with Callaway dying, at the same time as ending the bandwagon on E_P.
I'm very nervous of you as you're something of a mafia celebrity, here at least, and a verified shoe-eater. With Ace's death you're now clearly the best player in the game, and you've already shown off your ability to push the town in the direction you want them to go. You also seem to have a policy of "Everyone must always be voting" which I am strongly against.
I am SUSPICIOUS of you, therefore i will point my FINGER OF SUSPISCION: KPaca
I am not SURE, so I will not vote.
Is this, under your logic, scummy?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if one more townie bites the dust, isn't there a good chance that the mafia win? If there's 3/10 mafia, and 3/7 townies bite the dust by end of Day 2, then the mafia nightkill a townie and mafia = town = mafia win, correct? Soooo, lynching a townie today is sorta a bad thing (unless a power role makes a save of some sort...).
Yes that would be bad, that's why Day 2 will be long with a lot of trading of barbs. I'm not advocating to speedily lynch anyone, and LD definately needs to post a rebuttle before we get a large number of votes on him.
As Toastboy states, E_P was a strong candidate until Kpaca appeared on the scene, and since Kpaca was a replacement, I could very easily see E_P and ??? flailing as mafia. Suddenly Kpaca shows up on the scene and slamhammers the focus to Callaway, who turns out to be innocent (well...as innocent as any of these characters seem to be). Seems pretty fishy. Points against this theory: Kpaca initially put E_P at L-2, which is a pretty risky position to put your fellow scum in (granted, he unvoted 4 hours later...but still seems risky). And both Kpaca and E_P have been actively involved in discussion and (apparent) scumhunting.
I feel that kpaca appearing on the scene didn't have a strong effect on me moving from nearly lynched. I claimed, there was a breif discussion and several people came out looking scummy. kpaca chose to go after Callaway ended with a self hammer, which I'm not a fan of. He should have elaborated more on what he wanted at a claim, and I can see how his second to last post seems like a confession.
I think that you raise two things:
1) The majority of the town is not involved enough in the game. We had the 7 needed to lynch Callaway, but there is a low level of participation from most people.
2) The town is easily swayed. People need to be going with their "gut" more in this game, and need to be sticking to who they feel is scum. It doesn't help that kpaca is both the most expirienced player, but a very charismatic player.
Also, the town has an example of a bad claim, and what not to do under pressure with Calloway. It is highly unlikely that they will be as scummy under pressure. That means: clearly express your thoughts and do not lurk.
That being said, it was extremely lucky that the scum got Ace. He's got expirience, and he was rational. He also showed no clear reason to think he was a power role at all.
LampDwellr certainly has acted scummy...but so was Callaway. Right now logic says to go with LampDwellr, but my gut says to go with my instinct (my first suspicion: E_P, and potentially Kpaca). Unfortunately, as mentioned above, one more townlynch and we can probably hang up the hat on this one...gotta play this very carefully...
I encourage to take your time, but LD has been in several games besides this one and at this point is more experienced than me. That is why kpaca questioned several moves that he made in Day 1. I just want to point out how dissimilar the cases are.
1) The majority of the town is not involved enough in the game. We had the 7 needed to lynch Callaway, but there is a low level of participation from most people.
2) The town is easily swayed. People need to be going with their "gut" more in this game, and need to be sticking to who they feel is scum. It doesn't help that kpaca is both the most expirienced player, but a very charismatic player.
Definately agree with you on that first point, and am fully aware that I am part of the problem. Unfortunately, I'm not really confident in trusting my "gut" yet at this game. That being said I think I'm going to hold off on posting about any suspicions until I can read up on some mafia theory and re-read this thread, as trying to post just to stay active has already gotten me in some trouble.
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If you disagree that Callaway showed a scum tell, I implore you to read other games.
I don't agree or disagree. If I believe someone is suspicious, but am not sure enough about it to put that player at risk of lynch, should i remain silent?
Also I don't understand the part of your logic that me being the most recognizable player left in this game is suspicious. Care to explain that?
I don't believe that's what I said. I said I was nervous of you for it, as you are the most experienced player in a newb game. Most of the rest of us are in our first or second games. You have the experience to back it up, and in my read through I saw that once you started posting, everyone dropped their own beliefs and went, "ooh, kpaca, shiny" and barned you the whole way home.
I don't agree or disagree. If I believe someone is suspicious, but am not sure enough about it to put that player at risk of lynch, should i remain silent?
I don't believe that's what I said. I said I was nervous of you for it, as you are the most experienced player in a newb game. Most of the rest of us are in our first or second games. You have the experience to back it up, and in my read through I saw that once you started posting, everyone dropped their own beliefs and went, "ooh, kpaca, shiny" and barned you the whole way home.
I am SUSPICIOUS of you, therefore i will point my FINGER OF SUSPISCION: KPaca
I am not SURE, so I will not vote.
Is this, under your logic, scummy?
Also:
This leads me to believe you really don't understand what I was saying at all anyway. I don't find all FOS's scummy, but when there is a formed wagon, and you state your case against the player who is being wagonned, then you FOS him instead of voting, it is a scum tell,.
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I disagree that stating suspicion without voting is scummy. I don't agree or disagree that Callaway may have made a scum tell. If you think there is something special about this case, I'll listen, but I don't see it. If there is a wagon against someone, and I have suspicion of them but DON'T want to see them quicklynched, I DON'T vote. See my actions in newb #24 Day 1.
2. MetalPipe has succeeded in looking very scummy twice in about 3 posts. That's got to be some kind of record.
3. I'm not completely sure to be honest why everyone is buying Emo Pinata's attack on me and accepting his argument that I'm "full of contradictions." I'll probably have a long post later this evening or tomorrow that answers most or all of EP's arguments, which (let's remember) were initially made in order to deflect a wagon off of himself. Note that as soon as he found a different town patsy (Callaway) he was all for getting him lynched too. Reread the thread. EP was at about L-2, searching for a scapegoat, and I'm surprised that most of you seem to be going along with his argument against me given that game state.
But again, a more formal response is coming later, so don't post stuff like "Lamp came back and didn't even really answer EP" until at least Wednesday, okay? It's going to take some time to address everything out there.
Seph's first post was scummy, and you've basically come in here, made some ridiculous scummy posts, contradicted your self, and then spun a circle of backtracking. Good day sir!
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@kpaca - Assuming that the lynch of callaway was his fault through him exhibiting a classic scumtell rather than yours through picking up on it, why did your posting style change so much between the start of day 2 and you examination of metalpipe. Why are you only articualte and persusive when you have a definite target? Why the short oneline posts when before you where posting at length?
What brought on the change?
First off I have gained noteriety for one line posts, they are my norm. I often post one liners and do things many find counterintuitive because I gauge reactions and base future moves off of them. I don't like to give people my entire thought process unless asked really. In the case of Callaway I can in and picked up on a good scum tell, at which point it was time to run with it, which is why I upgraded my posts to larger quality. If you notice my first real post in the game was a short one where I voted and FOS'd two people without much of a reason.
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@Emo_pinata - As your claim looks better and better in light of the other revealed roles, are your targets still based only on your original analysis? What other supporting evidence can you provide, especially on your suspicions over Guardman as I think the case against him is less clear cut.
I think there was a definate scum buddy talk between Guardman and LampDwellr implying that Lamp should vote for me at the time. I also think that it's what left LampDwellr giving flavor as the reason he voted, and then forcing himself to rebuke it later because it was clearly not normal for him. That's all. I thought Guardman was supiciously jumpy at the beginning of the game, and that the conversation between LampDwellr and Guardman was scum day talk.
@The town:
I also think that LampDwellr gave the lamest reasoning against me ever. It was clear WIFOM, and the logic of "He was looking for anyone" is not true. During my claim I posted that Keyof Destiny and Timlock Smash looked scummy, and I think even Timlock Smash can point out the reasoning. I then switched my vote after several rereads of the thread. I only switched to Calloway in order to get him to claim. He then acted scummy and ended up self hammering on Day 1. I maintained LampDwellr being scum the entire time.
I wait for his more elaborate post, hopefully without the WIFOM since that's the only argument he's had for my position.
MetalPipe seems like he's always neutral. I think the attitude of remaining neutral often is a bad policy, because it is a scum tell. That aside, I also see that he fell under suspicion many times in the game I've seen him in for his neutrality. I don't buy him being scum as of yet, but I will say I disagree with his philosophy.
Claiming using information from my PM != Gaming the mod.
It's not flailing to say LD looks scummy followed by a pbpa. If you are referring to the Keyof Destiny vote, that was before LD posted.
None of that is flailing, it was just moving along with the new information.
It's not the conversation, it's the point that kpaca brought up about not questioning him on it. That is the link, not the actual words thmeselves.
Because it's useless to split the town apart at this stage. LD is still my #1 for scum, but Callaway's post was scumy. Also, his appearence online without any post at all is a scum tell as well, though it's a lot less of a scum tell if he isn't within claiming territory.
I'd hope you wouldn't switch your vote right now bringing him wihtin hammering range.
Aside form that, saying if Callaway is town kpaca and I must be scum is an extreme link. Our fates are not that closely tied to each other.
No.
If by advocating removing me from L-1, then that is not a scummy action. Putting anyone at L-1 without a claim is a bad idea as discussed several times in the past few pages. It shows an overeagerness to lynch, which is not pro-town.
Also, I put his post into perspective in answering Cantripmancer. He's not saying I'm not scum (in fact he said I still look scummy at this point in the game), he's just syaing a rushed lynch is pointless right now as well. It didn't slow down the game at all, especially considering the last few pages of discussion after my claim.
I see...
Again, the link between Callaway being scum and me being town or vice-versa is nonexistant. I'm not the one pegging him as the best choice for scum, I'm unfamiliar with scumhunting in that mannor and I had to read two sepparate threads to see kpaca's point, and I'm simply applying anough pressure for a claim which can only help him if he's town.
2) Toastboy, please identify where you see E_P gaming the mod.
3) In no way is E_P off the hook, just off the immediate hook. I agree that lynching either E_P or Callaway will probably give us plenty of information at this point, but I think that E_P under fire acted better than Callaway under fire.
I do find it interesting that E_P delayed his claim until his votecount was official...could the 2-hour delay be an effort to buy time to devise a believable false claim?
This perfectly explains why I didn't vote E_P earlier on: From what I've seen, hammering someone (or putting them at L-1) tends to be seen as scummy the next day.
The reason I did not claim earlier (around 10:30, I believe) was that I was about 2 or 3 pages behind at that point - I just now finished reading the whole discussion about me. Anyways, my claim is:
Hoggmeiser
Butler to the recently deceased king, robbed his castle while he was away and took all his most valuable stuff. After Laharl comes back, he was not happy, but spared your life, making you very loyal to him.
Vanilla townie
Is that enough?
Signature from Nakamura and Heroes of the Planes Studios.
MAFIA STATS
Scum
Basic 17 (Afterlife) - lose
Basic 15 (Coffeehouse) - win
Duel Monsters - lose
Manipulator - lose
Town
Anita Blake - lose
Basic 17 (Demonata) - lose
Canada - ongoing
Ongoing
Basic 24
That is enough for me to be pretty sure your scum.
3 Emo_Pinata - Toastboy, Timlock Smash, Lampdwellr
1 Ace - Sephiroth Owa
3 Not Voting - Callaway, Cantripmancer, KeyofDestiny
With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch.
Also, like kpaca, I do not accept Callaway's reasoning for not putting EP at L-1.
So far he still seems very much like scum to me.
I agree. However, I don't want a lynch without more discussion:-/.
It also feels like he's trying to deflect towards me with the whole L-1 sentence.
Mafia Stats:
2/3 Loss(#28 Town Disgaea,)
1/3 Wins(#29 Chess replacement, #1 Town GCF)
Signature from Nakamura and Heroes of the Planes Studios.
MAFIA STATS
Scum
Basic 17 (Afterlife) - lose
Basic 15 (Coffeehouse) - win
Duel Monsters - lose
Manipulator - lose
Town
Anita Blake - lose
Basic 17 (Demonata) - lose
Canada - ongoing
Ongoing
Basic 24
Feel free to explain the rest of the claims laid against you too.
Because I had already unvoted and he was back at L-2 when you FoS'd.
Mafia Stats:
2/3 Loss(#28 Town Disgaea,)
1/3 Wins(#29 Chess replacement, #1 Town GCF)
On top of being a terrible reason not to vote (townies don't need to be as "safe"), you're defending a scummy action itself.
If you think somone deserves a lynch, then vote them. As you still have not voted for me post claim, you are clearly scum.
More of a response to the claim mainly. What do people think about the name claim. We've had a bad guy and a bad guy turned good Disgaea game wise.
Mafia Stats:
2/3 Loss(#28 Town Disgaea,)
1/3 Wins(#29 Chess replacement, #1 Town GCF)
I am not sure if I believe EP's claim, but he is scumhunting pretty hard.
Callaways claim fits flavorfully with the game and mafia game, but his behavior seems scummy.
So I have no idea. I am inclined to vote Callaway because of behavior though.
Mafia Stats:
2/3 Loss(#28 Town Disgaea,)
1/3 Wins(#29 Chess replacement, #1 Town GCF)
But in that same vain while EP acts somewhat like scum, Callaway seems very much like scum. Which is why I am voting for the more likely scum at the moment.
I agree with kpaca there isn't much more to discuss, unless someone can come up with a good reason Callaway shouldn't be lynched.
Other than Hoggmeiser is an ally after being evil, I can't think of anything.
My vein of thought is that if Callaway comes up Townie, then EP should be scum. I can't come up with anything other than that right now. So,
Vote: Callaway
Mafia Stats:
2/3 Loss(#28 Town Disgaea,)
1/3 Wins(#29 Chess replacement, #1 Town GCF)
Also we should not play anything in this game based on flavor. Gaming the mod=BAD!
So.... do we have enough not lurking people to hammer.
I was thinking this, but I can't come up with why EP would be scum if Callaway comes up scum, other than name claim and mass claim at beginning.
Mafia Stats:
2/3 Loss(#28 Town Disgaea,)
1/3 Wins(#29 Chess replacement, #1 Town GCF)
Since I'm probably gonna be lynched anyways, here's a quick question:
How does what I did seem scummy? Is it because I FoS'ed after I stated that I was suspicious of E_P, instead of voting him?
Just want to know, so I don't screw up and get lynched if I play in another game.
Signature from Nakamura and Heroes of the Planes Studios.
MAFIA STATS
Scum
Basic 17 (Afterlife) - lose
Basic 15 (Coffeehouse) - win
Duel Monsters - lose
Manipulator - lose
Town
Anita Blake - lose
Basic 17 (Demonata) - lose
Canada - ongoing
Ongoing
Basic 24
Now if you would kindly hammer yourself, we'd all appreciate it.
Vote: Callaway
Signature from Nakamura and Heroes of the Planes Studios.
MAFIA STATS
Scum
Basic 17 (Afterlife) - lose
Basic 15 (Coffeehouse) - win
Duel Monsters - lose
Manipulator - lose
Town
Anita Blake - lose
Basic 17 (Demonata) - lose
Canada - ongoing
Ongoing
Basic 24
7 Callaway - kpaca, Guardman, lostandthedamned, Ace, Emo_Pinata, KeyofDestiny, Callaway
3 Emo_Pinata - Toastboy, Timlock Smash, Lampdwellr
1 Ace - Sephiroth Owa
1 Not Voting - Cantripmancer
In the shadows cast by the flickering torchlight, the group glares suspiciously at Callaway. His large, brutish form certainly does him no favors in attempting to dissuade your suspicions.
"Hey you," says Guardman. "I saw you licking your lips just now. You planning on eating us, or something?"
"Wh-wh-what?" squeals Callaway. "That's... that's," *snort* "preposterous!"
"Is that so?" says Ace, squinting at a small object clenched in one of Callaway's fists. "Why, then, are you clutching a jar of basil?" Callaway lets out another nervous snort and reflexively tenses his hand. With a loud cracking noise, a cloud of spice emerges from his fist and settles all over him.
A few seconds pass in silence, and then there comes the loud noise of indrawn breath. Callaway's nostrils flare, and a small trail of spittle emerges from his mouth.
"Excuse me for a moment, please," he says as he shuffles off into the darkness.
As the group peers into the shadows with horrified looks on their faces, the room is filled with the sound of loud chewing, punctuated alternately with screams of agony and of ecstasy. Once the noise ceases, Emo_Pinata ventures forward with a torch only to see a set of pork-like ribs, picked utterly clean.
In a feat both disgusting and logic-defying, Callaway (Hoggmeiser, Greedy Demon) appears to have eaten himself.
It is now Night 1. All night actions are due within 72 hours of this post.
There is no dawn, to speak of, in the Netherworld. Certainly, there is a brief time during which it ceases to be night and becomes day instead, a time at which cockatrices across the Netherworld make a cacophonous racket, but it is hard to liken it to the majestic quality assigned to the event by humans.
At this particular sort-of-dawn, the Overlord's ten remaining subjects gather once again the audience chamber, to go about the messy business of succession. Ten, indeed, and not eleven - for there has been mischief on the previous night. Near the chamber's main window, the group happens across the body of Ace, lying face down on the ground with a comically large arrow through his throat.
A closer look at his features reveals an elegant face, and yet one that seems just vaguely ridiculous in some intangible way. Unfortunately for the good ones among the group (good, of course, being a relative term in this case), this strange, silly man also possessed a keen insight.
Ace (Mid-Boss, Comic Relief "Rival"), the Town Cop, has been killed.
The survivors fall silent for a moment of reverence.
"I call his stuff," adds Guardman.
It is now Day 2. With 10 players alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
vote LD
For the reasons I outlined on Day 1. I think he his still the best lead for scum.
This sucks. This is my 2nd game of mafia, and for the 2nd time in a row, D1 Town hammers himself, N1 Scum nab a power role.
Also: I hate firefox for eating the big post I just made. I'll be back with some analysis after I make dinner.
You've succeeded...
Of course, my new scum list is:
LampDwellr
Guardman
I'm not so hot on Timlock Smash as I was, but LampDwellr and Guardman are still extremely high.
Hmm... EP put together a pretty good composite of the claim against Lampdwellr. He is definitely rising in suspicion, but I am not at that point yet, since I still have other FoS as well.
Anyways new suspected scum list:
Lampdwellr: Current most likely scum at this point
Emo Pinata: For starting the mass claim
Metal Pipe: Because Sephiroth Owa seemed scummy and didn't post, so all we have to off of is that first posts really.
Suspected Townie:
Guardman - obviously
That is all currently.
kpaca was downgraded because he was wrong with Callaway, and even though he provided convincing evidence. He has been taken off of my suspected townie list right now.
As Toastboy states, E_P was a strong candidate until Kpaca appeared on the scene, and since Kpaca was a replacement, I could very easily see E_P and ??? flailing as mafia. Suddenly Kpaca shows up on the scene and slamhammers the focus to Callaway, who turns out to be innocent (well...as innocent as any of these characters seem to be). Seems pretty fishy. Points against this theory: Kpaca initially put E_P at L-2, which is a pretty risky position to put your fellow scum in (granted, he unvoted 4 hours later...but still seems risky). And both Kpaca and E_P have been actively involved in discussion and (apparent) scumhunting.
LampDwellr certainly has acted scummy...but so was Callaway. Right now logic says to go with LampDwellr, but my gut says to go with my instinct (my first suspicion: E_P, and potentially Kpaca). Unfortunately, as mentioned above, one more townlynch and we can probably hang up the hat on this one...gotta play this very carefully...
FoS: LampDwellr, or (Emo_Pinata and Kpaca)
(I agree that the link between E_P and Kpaca isn't solidly defined, but it certainly was unfortunate for the two of you that your "sure thing" mafia pick turned out town...or maybe not so unfortunate, if you really are mafia.)
E_P's pushing for a D1 Mass claim. I haven't played much mafia, but what's the point of letting scum know who we are?
Kpaca's 2nd post explanation-less vote, which was outside of the random phase, which he only later defends with "There was a scummy post on the very first page."
Timlock Post 111 "I concur, do you concur?"
LampDwellr's let's-game-the-mod flavor arguments. I don't know anything about Disgaea, (in fact I've never seen that word outside this thread) but I do not like throwing around suspicion based on role. You seem to be GREAT at getting heat on yourself, but let's try not to
Kpaca's argument that FoS is scummy and voting is town. Especially at L-2, voting is something I personally don't do unless I'm fairly certain. I would expect no different from another player.
I disagree. Voting ends games, whereas FoS allows the day to continue with more discussion.
Lets go into hypothetical mode here. If Callaway hammered (or pushed to L-1), and E_P was town, Callaway would be suspicious. Because Callaway DIDN'T Hammer (or push to L-1) he was suspicious. What was the right move? Maybe you'll have to explain this to me, maybe I'm just being dense, but this seems like WIFOM. "He didn't vote, so he wasn't a part of the lynch. But isn't that what he WANTS us to think?"
Kpaca initiated the bandwagon that would eventually end with Callaway dying, at the same time as ending the bandwagon on E_P.
I'm very nervous of you as you're something of a mafia celebrity, here at least, and a verified shoe-eater. With Ace's death you're now clearly the best player in the game, and you've already shown off your ability to push the town in the direction you want them to go. You also seem to have a policy of "Everyone must always be voting" which I am strongly against.
I am SUSPICIOUS of you, therefore i will point my FINGER OF SUSPISCION: KPaca
I am not SURE, so I will not vote.
Is this, under your logic, scummy?
"You seem to be GREAT at getting heat on yourself, but let's try not to call people names this time"
Also I don't understand the part of your logic that me being the most recognizable player left in this game is suspicious. Care to explain that?
@CantripMancer: Your theory that we are linked is WIFOM.
Yes that would be bad, that's why Day 2 will be long with a lot of trading of barbs. I'm not advocating to speedily lynch anyone, and LD definately needs to post a rebuttle before we get a large number of votes on him.
I feel that kpaca appearing on the scene didn't have a strong effect on me moving from nearly lynched. I claimed, there was a breif discussion and several people came out looking scummy. kpaca chose to go after Callaway ended with a self hammer, which I'm not a fan of. He should have elaborated more on what he wanted at a claim, and I can see how his second to last post seems like a confession.
I think that you raise two things:
1) The majority of the town is not involved enough in the game. We had the 7 needed to lynch Callaway, but there is a low level of participation from most people.
2) The town is easily swayed. People need to be going with their "gut" more in this game, and need to be sticking to who they feel is scum. It doesn't help that kpaca is both the most expirienced player, but a very charismatic player.
Also, the town has an example of a bad claim, and what not to do under pressure with Calloway. It is highly unlikely that they will be as scummy under pressure. That means: clearly express your thoughts and do not lurk.
That being said, it was extremely lucky that the scum got Ace. He's got expirience, and he was rational. He also showed no clear reason to think he was a power role at all.
I encourage to take your time, but LD has been in several games besides this one and at this point is more experienced than me. That is why kpaca questioned several moves that he made in Day 1. I just want to point out how dissimilar the cases are.
'nathed by a one liner....
Definately agree with you on that first point, and am fully aware that I am part of the problem. Unfortunately, I'm not really confident in trusting my "gut" yet at this game. That being said I think I'm going to hold off on posting about any suspicions until I can read up on some mafia theory and re-read this thread, as trying to post just to stay active has already gotten me in some trouble.
I don't agree or disagree. If I believe someone is suspicious, but am not sure enough about it to put that player at risk of lynch, should i remain silent?
I don't believe that's what I said. I said I was nervous of you for it, as you are the most experienced player in a newb game. Most of the rest of us are in our first or second games. You have the experience to back it up, and in my read through I saw that once you started posting, everyone dropped their own beliefs and went, "ooh, kpaca, shiny" and barned you the whole way home.
In the previous post you said this....
Yeah....
Also:
This leads me to believe you really don't understand what I was saying at all anyway. I don't find all FOS's scummy, but when there is a formed wagon, and you state your case against the player who is being wagonned, then you FOS him instead of voting, it is a scum tell,.
1. Can Toastboy vote twice?
2. MetalPipe has succeeded in looking very scummy twice in about 3 posts. That's got to be some kind of record.
3. I'm not completely sure to be honest why everyone is buying Emo Pinata's attack on me and accepting his argument that I'm "full of contradictions." I'll probably have a long post later this evening or tomorrow that answers most or all of EP's arguments, which (let's remember) were initially made in order to deflect a wagon off of himself. Note that as soon as he found a different town patsy (Callaway) he was all for getting him lynched too. Reread the thread. EP was at about L-2, searching for a scapegoat, and I'm surprised that most of you seem to be going along with his argument against me given that game state.
But again, a more formal response is coming later, so don't post stuff like "Lamp came back and didn't even really answer EP" until at least Wednesday, okay? It's going to take some time to address everything out there.
Seph's first post was scummy, and you've basically come in here, made some ridiculous scummy posts, contradicted your self, and then spun a circle of backtracking. Good day sir!
First off I have gained noteriety for one line posts, they are my norm. I often post one liners and do things many find counterintuitive because I gauge reactions and base future moves off of them. I don't like to give people my entire thought process unless asked really. In the case of Callaway I can in and picked up on a good scum tell, at which point it was time to run with it, which is why I upgraded my posts to larger quality. If you notice my first real post in the game was a short one where I voted and FOS'd two people without much of a reason.
I think there was a definate scum buddy talk between Guardman and LampDwellr implying that Lamp should vote for me at the time. I also think that it's what left LampDwellr giving flavor as the reason he voted, and then forcing himself to rebuke it later because it was clearly not normal for him. That's all. I thought Guardman was supiciously jumpy at the beginning of the game, and that the conversation between LampDwellr and Guardman was scum day talk.
@The town:
I also think that LampDwellr gave the lamest reasoning against me ever. It was clear WIFOM, and the logic of "He was looking for anyone" is not true. During my claim I posted that Keyof Destiny and Timlock Smash looked scummy, and I think even Timlock Smash can point out the reasoning. I then switched my vote after several rereads of the thread. I only switched to Calloway in order to get him to claim. He then acted scummy and ended up self hammering on Day 1. I maintained LampDwellr being scum the entire time.
I wait for his more elaborate post, hopefully without the WIFOM since that's the only argument he's had for my position.
MetalPipe seems like he's always neutral. I think the attitude of remaining neutral often is a bad policy, because it is a scum tell. That aside, I also see that he fell under suspicion many times in the game I've seen him in for his neutrality. I don't buy him being scum as of yet, but I will say I disagree with his philosophy.