Sweet, it worked. For the record the time turner was an item that had a day ability which granted the user an extra vote. If used however, it randomly was given to another player.
Now, does anyone have any word of what precisely the shield hat is?
I looked in Kraj's post and saw no mention of EITHER of these items...
@ Loran - How do you know what the time turner is?
I received it, not AI. It was the night i gained the Galleons as well. Since I couldn't use the galleons while i had it, I passed it to AI...only to get another horcrux (the ****ing firebolt.)
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I received it, not AI. It was the night i gained the Galleons as well. Since I couldn't use the galleons while i had it, I passed it to AI...only to get another horcrux (the ****ing firebolt.)
What night was this? Was this before/after you said you and AI were masons? AI - what did you then do with it?
What night was this? Was this before/after you said you and AI were masons? AI - what did you then do with it?
.....................Are you forgetting everything about this game every night or something? SERIOUSLY.
Me and AI hinted at being masons day 1 (through cryptos and my defense of him.) I think it became common knowledge day 2.
We received it after this became public knowledge (Last night i got rid of the firebolt, the night before i passed him the time turner, the night before i received the time turner and galleons)
And the freaking thing remained unused for obvious reasons until it was destroyed. Seriously sir, are you paying any attention? IF you have alzheimers or something take notes.
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Beyond that, I'd say that since no one has come forward with any information about the Marauder's Map that means it's in the hands of the scum (or completely made up, but I still doubt that).
I doubt it's made up. It's possible Dagger started with it and still has it and is just lying about targeting Jobie with it. It's also possible he's town, did use it, and it got passed to scum who have kept it under wraps. Those seem like the two most likely scenarios.
That means there are three items in the hands of the scum for YuanTi and Loran to try and nab with the Sacks, which I emphatically suggest they do. Chimp should choose a target for the Sword since that can also identify scum in a similar fashion.
Tonight we should hopefully actually get legitimately useful night result information.
Do we want Loran/Chimp/Raf to publicly declare targets or not? I can see benefits to either line of thinking.
Calling out targets:
Pro - We don't get a situation where all 3 choose the same target, which would be wasteful.
Pro - We'll have full information on who targeted who for unraveling tomorrow even if one of the 3 is NKed.
Con - Scum have full information about what people are going to be doing at night, and can make the plays that best benefit them.
Despite the con being giving scum a chance to make the play to best benefit them, I'm leaning towards having everyone call out separate targets myself. I think the best play the scum could make in this situation would still be better for us than the worst case scenario if we don't call out targets, which is the situation where we learn nothing useful. I would also like to arrange it such that the most pro-town players are targeting those most suspected. This way we set up a scenario such that if there is a dispute or counterclaim we don't have to employ guesswork in determining if it's scummy player A or scummy player B lying. Instead it would be more like Townie player A against scummy player B making it easier to determine who is lying/telling the truth.
Chimp
Loran
Raf
is my ranking from towniest -> scummiest of those with known relevant night abilities. My only suggestion would be that if I am a chosen investigation target, I would prefer RafK not be the one to do it, because people consider both of us scummy, essentially creating the scummy A vs. scummy B. scenario I wish to avoid. I would be fine with Loran or Chimp targeting me.
One issue I can see is this: Let's say Loran targets RafK with his sack of galleons and RafK targets Some One. Which happens first? How does that interaction pan out? It may be best to avoid that scenario if at all possible.
I think planning whom targets whom is a bad idea and is more likely to help the scum than us.
Why?
The best case scenario by calling out targets isn't as high as the possible best case when nobody calls anything out, but you also eliminate horrible worst case scenarios where everyone targets the same person, etc and we learn nothing.
Say Chimp uses the sword and destroys the sorting cap but gets night killed. It's a complete waste. Now let's say Chimp calls out his target and uses the Sword and we see a destroyed sorting cap. Even if they NK Chimp, we would have that information. Sure, we give the scum some leeway in manipulating night results, but there is only so much they can do. If nobody calls anything out, they can still manipulate night actions, but we'll have no base point to judge it off of.
If we didn't have to worry about NKs, then perhaps not calling out targets would be best, but NKs can really screw things over. Getting targeting information out ahead of time > NKs, because we still get information from dead players.
Umm, I've uncovered some of what I believe is pretty damning evidence within my role PM. It connects a particular person with a particular item.
Here's the jist:
This person physically had the item.
This person discussed exactly when they use the item, but not exactly how, nor what it does.
This has inspired me to want to get the item because I could probably make good use of it.
Now, does this mean that person probably started the game with it in their possesion?
The best case scenario by calling out targets isn't as high as the possible best case when nobody calls anything out, but you also eliminate horrible worst case scenarios where everyone targets the same person, etc and we learn nothing.
Say Chimp uses the sword and destroys the sorting cap but gets night killed. It's a complete waste. Now let's say Chimp calls out his target and uses the Sword and we see a destroyed sorting cap. Even if they NK Chimp, we would have that information. Sure, we give the scum some leeway in manipulating night results, but there is only so much they can do. If nobody calls anything out, they can still manipulate night actions, but we'll have no base point to judge it off of.
If we didn't have to worry about NKs, then perhaps not calling out targets would be best, but NKs can really screw things over. Getting targeting information out ahead of time > NKs, because we still get information from dead players.
Basically you're banking on the chance that we target someone the scum can't do anything about. The chances of that are quite small. Last night Chimp passed the Elder Wand to AI before the Sword took effect. That means if we announce a townie as the Sword target the scum can simply pass an incriminating item to that player; if we announce a scum target who has an incriminating item they can simply pass it away. Announcing the target completely nullifies the scum-catching potential.
The Galleon sacks are a different story since they swap before any other item actions occur, however they have the weakness that if the targeted player has an inciminating item and a non-incriminating item they will simply give up the non-incriminating item. I wouldn't be totally opposed to claiming those targets ahead of time so they don't double up provided that it is understood Chimp may choose to use the sword on one of those targets as well.
Umm, I've uncovered some of what I believe is pretty damning evidence within my role PM. It connects a particular person with a particular item.
Here's the jist:
This person physically had the item.
This person discussed exactly when they use the item, but not exactly how, nor what it does.
This has inspired me to want to get the item because I could probably make good use of it.
Now, does this mean that person probably started the game with it in their possesion?
Without seeing the exact text of your PM (obviously do not post it) and the nuances of the wording it's a little scary to draw a conclusion based on it. But from what you describe I agree with your interpretation; I think I know exactly who and what you're talking about and I'm willing to take the risk on lynching that player.
Unvote
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1 - Minerva McGonagall is head of Gryffindor House. There's no house of McGonagall. I am proposing that you made 2 crypto-claims, secretly in your own time, that could both apply in the future. It should read, Minerva McGonagall, head of House of Gryiffindor....etc....etc.....
Note on this - I found this out on the web, and have read none of the books. If a house of McGonagall exists, please enlighten me - it doesn't show up when I looked on the internet.
2 - You almost definitely started the game with the time turner, not the completely made up marauder's map. Based on my PM, it is evident that you certainly have great knowledge of the item, and with my PM and what Loran says it is, it is pretty evident that scum would start with this item, not town. I can go into the whole reasoning why scum would start with it as opposed to town, but I don't know if I can get that specific with the revealing of the information in my PM.
I do applaud you for your efforts, Dagger, certainly gave us all a run for our money. I am happy, however, that I caught my first scum.
One thing, I could have waited for you to talk about the item first, but that never would have happened, and then you would just deny it then as you are going to now, so might as well get to the point.
That's exactly what I expected to hear. I think the crypto thing is a non-point; his wording is just a roundabout way of writing his name without putting the two letters together. But your PM info alone is enough to lynch Dagger. If he's scum, the strength of his crypto is unnerving.
Vote: Dagger
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1 - Minerva McGonagall is head of Gryffindor House. There's no house of McGonagall. I am proposing that you made 2 crypto-claims, secretly in your own time, that could both apply in the future. It should read, Minerva McGonagall, head of House of Gryiffindor....etc....etc.....
...
I've read the books, and I'm sure that most of the people in the game have as well. I'm pretty pissed that I didn't catch this...
Alright, a couple of questions answered: I do know what a shield hat is and I'd rather not say its exact functionality because there are others currently in existence and knowing the way they work could help the mafia.
The evidence on Dagger seems pretty damning and I'll be voting him once we have our night plan in order.
Also, it is probably relevant that I currently possess a shield hat and without going into details, it is safe to follow through with a plan that requires me surviving the night.
The remaining scum are GR and Rafaelk, unless Loran/AI are up to no good, but I doubt that at this point.
You can see the consistancies with GR supporting Dagger's arguments throughout, and essentially barning him. I'll make my case against you, GR, tomorrow. RafaelK has seemed to be acting much more like a person replacing scum than a person replacing town.
Also - ty to the person who passed me what you passed me, I'm pretty sure I know who you are, and I also know what I am going to do with it tonight.
EBWODP - and that fits really well with GRs defense of CPE and attack of SoP. It makes him look really town for defending a townie, and identifying the fact that CPEs play was more town-like than scum-like, while at the same time, with the lynch of SoP, would make him simply look like a wrong townie. Meanwhile, he is the scum and they are both town.
Someone, while the crypto thing is pretty weird...explain why on earth if dagger started with the time turner would he give it to someone? It was passed to me by someone (no one's made a double vote this game afaik). How does that make sense?
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
2 - You almost definitely started the game with the time turner, not the completely made up marauder's map. Based on my PM, it is evident that you certainly have great knowledge of the item, and with my PM and what Loran says it is, it is pretty evident that scum would start with this item, not town. I can go into the whole reasoning why scum would start with it as opposed to town, but I don't know if I can get that specific with the revealing of the information in my PM.
Also you're going to have to explain this better. The crypto bit is meh, it sounds like a typo...it's kind of impossible to game cryptos imo. But i don't think i'll take your word for something like this without more explanation.
Reminds me of AH in magic mafia. Especially since you've been fuddling around making useless questions the last 3 days.
(PS: I will be fasting starting tonight and observing Yom Kippur, activity will be none during this period. Don't lynch anyone until Friday or Saturday because of this. Thanks)
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
If you want to dispute the information I have provided in my PM as to why, with everything I said, Dagger would NOT have started with it, you are certainly more than welcome to attempt to do so.
Anyway, there's several reasons he would pass it as opposed to use it. If he used it, and it passed randomly, it could wind up as a horcrux for his scum buddy. Overall, it isn't quite as powerful as it is made to seem in my role PM. Therefore, he'd rather pass a horcrux to a known townie than the alternative of using a rather weak item and horcruxing a scum buddy into being unable to use his abilities/items that night.
Furthermore, I am quite sure that he passed it probably passed it away fairly early, in other words, someone else probably had it or used it before you, but after him.
Someone, while the crypto thing is pretty weird...explain why on earth if dagger started with the time turner would he give it to someone? It was passed to me by someone (no one's made a double vote this game afaik). How does that make sense?
Seems obvious to me: it's a horcrux, and you had just received an item that can catch scum the night before.
(PS: I will be fasting starting tonight and observing Yom Kippur, activity will be none during this period. Don't lynch anyone until Friday or Saturday because of this. Thanks)
In that case,
Unvote
Regarding spot's claim, so far we've had four claims of item movement: the firebolt, the Sword, the Elder Wand, and an unknown item passed to Some One. I also know of an item being passed, which makes 5. Does anyone have any others?
Also you're going to have to explain this better. The crypto bit is meh, it sounds like a typo...it's kind of impossible to game cryptos imo. But i don't think i'll take your word for something like this without more explanation.
Reminds me of AH in magic mafia. Especially since you've been fuddling around making useless questions the last 3 days.
(PS: I will be fasting starting tonight and observing Yom Kippur, activity will be none during this period. Don't lynch anyone until Friday or Saturday because of this. Thanks)
Let's spell this out. Here's the just of things:
I am a student of Professor McGonagall. I spent weeks working on the ONE polyjuice potion I started the game with. My Professor discussed that in times where she was very busy, she used something called a Time Turner. I don't know exactly what it does, but with the amount of work I receive in school, and all that I hope to accomplish in Hogwarts, I feel like I certainly could put the time turner to great use, as I am a very busy individual.
The remaining scum are GR and Rafaelk, unless Loran/AI are up to no good, but I doubt that at this point.
Loran/AI are town. Chimp is town. I feel confident you are town. RafK is almost certainly scum. I can prove that I am not scum tomorrow when I claim. If the game doesn't end when Dagger/RafK are dead, then Kraj would be the last scum.
You can see the consistancies with GR supporting Dagger's arguments throughout, and essentially barning him. I'll make my case against you, GR, tomorrow. RafaelK has seemed to be acting much more like a person replacing scum than a person replacing town.
This is actually laughable. I was the one making the push towards lynching Dagger. I backed off because I thought Kraj made solid arguments and my read of day 1 made it seem like Dagger wasn't scum with Ged. Prior to that, I was the one pushing we lynch Dagger, starting from the day we lynched DYH.
Furthermore, barning? Far from it. Provide examples. In fact, I've probably been the person least barning Dagger (outside of spot). If you look through my posts, you'll see that I'm one of the only people who doesn't consider the marauder's map a town tell for Dagger.
Ironically enough, I was getting town vibes from spot today, which is why I hadn't voted him yet.
EBWODP - and that fits really well with GRs defense of CPE and attack of SoP. It makes him look really town for defending a townie, and identifying the fact that CPEs play was more town-like than scum-like, while at the same time, with the lynch of SoP, would make him simply look like a wrong townie. Meanwhile, he is the scum and they are both town.
No. How does a townie react in this situation? Assume for a second that I'm town, then ask yourself how I would play in this scenario? Do my actions make sense from town? You're using "confirmation bias". In other words, you've already assumed that I'm scum, and now are going back and showing how my actions could fit if I am scum. What you should do is go back through and see if my actions make me likely to be scum, rather than start from the conclusion that I'm scum and try to justify how my actions fit that persona.
You've put me in a completely lose-lose situation. Yesterday, you were accusing me of being a scum buddy to CPE. I gave reasons why we shouldn't lynch CPE, which were ignored and brushed aside as me being CPE's scum buddy. When it turns out I was right, you change the scenario around to now suggest that I was just scum defending a townie. No matter how I act, you can accuse me of either trying to engineer a townie mislynch, defending a townie to look good, or busing a scum buddy. You've left no option for how a townie can play.
Your entire argument here is based around the situation that I've engineered to make myself look like "a wrong townie" when the more simple explanation is that I simply am a wrong townie.
----
Quote from "loran" »
Someone, while the crypto thing is pretty weird...explain why on earth if dagger started with the time turner would he give it to someone? It was passed to me by someone (no one's made a double vote this game afaik). How does that make sense?
To keep you from using the sack of galleons.
I suggest we don't lynch Dagger quite yet. I was starting up a PBPA on both him and Spot, and would like to finish those first.
1 - Minerva McGonagall is head of Gryffindor House. There's no house of McGonagall. I am proposing that you made 2 crypto-claims, secretly in your own time, that could both apply in the future. It should read, Minerva McGonagall, head of House of Gryiffindor....etc....etc.....
Note on this - I found this out on the web, and have read none of the books. If a house of McGonagall exists, please enlighten me - it doesn't show up when I looked on the internet.
In certain fantasy lore and stories, when you use the term House or Clan as part of your name, it signifies a familial connection or family name. "House McGonagall" means "of the McGonagall". I have read through all the 7 books, albeit only once and never bother rereading since. Why the heck would I forget something so bloody common as that? I was worried that if I put two M's together right in front of my crypto, it would be bloody obvious to whoever seeking to break my crypto that I am Minerva McGonagall, which was why I put a spacer in between.
2 - You almost definitely started the game with the time turner, not the completely made up marauder's map. Based on my PM, it is evident that you certainly have great knowledge of the item, and with my PM and what Loran says it is, it is pretty evident that scum would start with this item, not town. I can go into the whole reasoning why scum would start with it as opposed to town, but I don't know if I can get that specific with the revealing of the information in my PM.
I do applaud you for your efforts, Dagger, certainly gave us all a run for our money. I am happy, however, that I caught my first scum.
One thing, I could have waited for you to talk about the item first, but that never would have happened, and then you would just deny it then as you are going to now, so might as well get to the point.
I started the game with the bloody map, not the time turner. What the hell was I doing crypto-ing an item (the Map) in my crypto, that was almost certainly going to be in the game and running the risk of an item counterclaim if said item popped up later? Remember we crypto-ed right in the beginning of Day 1 before anything else happened.
You inferred from your PM (if there really was said information there in the first place and not just something completely made up) that I possessed knowledge on a Time Turner and therefore I must start with one. Well, let me inform you. I did not start with a Time Turner, despite what your flavor may indicate to you. If I did, why not just crypto-ed it instead in my crypto-claim?
You are assuming 1. I start with a Time Turner and 2. Scums start with Time Turner. You are using two erroneous assumptions in support of each other, both of which has no actual basis and said, look it's perfectly logical, and since they supported each other, they must be true.
I am a student of Professor McGonagall. I spent weeks working on the ONE polyjuice potion I started the game with. My Professor discussed that in times where she was very busy, she used something called a Time Turner. I don't know exactly what it does, but with the amount of work I receive in school, and all that I hope to accomplish in Hogwarts, I feel like I certainly could put the time turner to great use, as I am a very busy individual.
Ugh. That's not nearly as solid as I had expected. I can see where you might interpret that to mean McGonagall started the game with the Time Turner, but I don't think it is conclusive at all.
Loran/AI are town. Chimp is town. I feel confident you are town. RafK is almost certainly scum. I can prove that I am not scum tomorrow when I claim. If the game doesn't end when Dagger/RafK are dead, then Kraj would be the last scum.
Stuff like this is what puts you as my #2 scum pick, GR. You name two lynch targets, then say after they are dead then someone else is scum. That's a classic scum tactic of encouraging lynches as process of elimination instead of behavior. Calling Raf almost certain scum is laughable, then you name Dagger as if it is a foregone conclusion, and then follow up by naming me as the last possible scum, which is utterly retarded. Not to mention you claim you can prove yourself to be town tomorrow. Why don't you do that right now?
Vote: GoatRevolt
I want you to claim. You're the only player other than Chimp, who I trust, who has yet to full claim and you've slid far enough down my townie ranking that I don't think you deserve a pass any longer.
I think Dagger's reaction is reasonable. It's true that it doesn't make much sense for him to false crypto the Marauder's Map when he started with another item that is not inherently scummy.
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Stuff like this is what puts you as my #2 scum pick, GR. You name two lynch targets, then say after they are dead then someone else is scum. That's a classic scum tactic of encouraging lynches as process of elimination instead of behavior. Calling Raf almost certain scum is laughable, then you name Dagger as if it is a foregone conclusion, and then follow up by naming me as the last possible scum, which is utterly retarded. Not to mention you claim you can prove yourself to be town tomorrow. Why don't you do that right now?
I'll think about claiming. I had a couple of reasons for wanting to hold off until tomorrow, but it may not really make a difference, and one of them was more for anticipation/fun factor anyway. Obviously I'll claim if more people want it, but I'll consider it anyway.
Secondly, nobody has presented a case against me, or any reasons why I should be lynched outside of process of elimination. Some One's case, for example, starts from the assumption that I'm scum, and works backwards. I'm guessing that initial assumption that I'm scum is based off of process of elimination. If you want me to be lynched, then present a case that doesn't involve process of elimination as reason to lynch me, otherwise nobody has any right calling me out on that point. I encourage you to read through my posts. There are plenty of places I have been pro-town that have been ignored/overlooked. Even yesterday, my defense of CPE was pro-town, but that has apparently led to an even greater level of suspicion on me.
I named you as scum only if the game doesn't end with Rafk and Dagger/Spot. From my perspective, that is not a ridiculous assumption at all, and I don't see why this has you so up in arms. I don't see how this is scummy at all, and it's absolutely no different than what you or anyone else has been doing. You have me as your number 2 suspect, which I assume means that after lynching your number one suspect that you will suspect me as scum. It's a completely identical scenario to what you think is scummy about what I said, you're only overreacting because you are the named player.
Kraj: I want to lynch spot, and after that Goatrevolt
Goat: I want to lynch Dagger/Rafk and after that Kraj.
Show me the difference or why yours is townie and mine is scummy. Perhaps the difference is that I'm "setting up lynches" whereas you merely "have a scum list." If so, that difference is purely semantics, as both are exactly the same.
I think Rafk is scum in any scenario, and lynching the scum of Dagger/Spot will be game ending. 4 scum, 1 sk. Not terribly unreasonable, and to me it's more likely than Kraj or Some One being scum. Only if the game doesn't end would I consider Kraj scum, as I find Some One more townie than him.
@ Dagger - It still doesn't quite sit well with me. I know there have been previous conflicts between you and spot, but he said he has read the books as well, and said he is pissed that he didn't catch that. Now, if he is scum, it seems logical for him to just miss that. On the other hand, if he is town, it becomes interesting.
Also, you used MM in the middle of the post like it was no big deal. Out of some of the people who decoded, such as CPE, and what I was able to decipher out of FLs, neither player so blatantly went. *INSERT NAME*...
I just find it awkward out of everything you could have done, you chose something that is very sly overall. You could have been more typical, saying something like, "IATHOGDSPCMMM" or "I am the head of gryffindor house, some people call me minerva mcgonagall...." IN which case, your name could be ANYTHING. Overall, I just don't like the spacer you used, especially after seeing what other, non-scum, individuals have done.
I know analyzing the precise way for which you formulated your crypto is getting this next to no where, but Minerva of House McGonagall has yet to make sense to me, a non-reader, and Spot, a reader. If anyone else could shine some light on this topic, that'd be great.
Anyway, @ Dagger, who did you investigate with your ability night 5 and 6? Furthermore, can you elaborate on your vanillafication? Also, when you say item inventory starts with marauder's map - can you clarify that, add the needed punctuation?
@ Others, if someone can provide some information regarding whether they started with an item that makes sense for their character or not, that would be great. (I.e - I started with a potion that I used at a point during the series)
Also, in the books, in reference to the time turner, Professor McGonagall gave it to me at some point. I'm just finding it weird that it was referenced in my PM yet the person of that character in game has no knowledge of anything about it, clearly something I expected, as it is already known where my gut lies.
Also, in the books, in reference to the time turner, Professor McGonagall gave it to me at some point. I'm just finding it weird that it was referenced in my PM yet the person of that character in game has no knowledge of anything about it, clearly something I expected, as it is already known where my gut lies.
This is the difference between FLAVOR and actual role information. What you have most likely constitutes flavor.
For the record, while i still favor spot over goat/dagger, I'd like to call for a mass full claim at this point.
There's no reason at this point, when almost everything is known, for anything to be kept secret.
That means all items, all abilities, all names and cryptos. It's beyond stupid at this point for 99% of everything to be revealed here and 1%, including 1% about one unknown player, to be unknown.
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
I have broken my crypto for like several game days now, and no one has called me on it. And then spot suddenly popped up after your exclamation saying, "oh damn, that name thing certainly is convincing, no?" and then proceeded to vote me while utterly ignoring your other more important non-tacked on point. How can you believe him to be town after that utterly fake stunt?
IIRC, Kraj has read the books as well and even he said the wording is a roundabout way to write my name without putting the two words together.
Also, I deemed the MM in the middle of my crypto to be no big deal, precisely because it's in the middle of my crypto. It's not at the front nor the back where I deemed scums would most likely focus on in order to break the name. I have made several cryptos in my games here on this site and I usually use different way each time to lock them up. In addition, I don't see how you can compare each individual's method of locking their crypto-claim.
My crypto was very direct. How can spacing two words slightly apart in a relevant way be considered "sly"? If anything, the crypto you proposed for me is more sneaky in that it adds multiple irrelevant words to allow modifications.
I am a fan of fictions. Of the top of my head, I can give Dune, in which I believed there were three main Houses, and the stories revolving around them.
Night 5, I targeted Spot and came up with no item. Night 6, I targeted GR but was blocked. There was some battle with an unknown assailant, after which I was defeated and tortured with Cruciatus for long periods of time. That was the flavor given to me in which I lost my ability.
Your request of clarification with regards to those words is that they are split, "item inventory" was part of my ability while "starts with marauder's map" was my starting item.
Also, off the top of my head, I can give you that Diggy as Tonks started with the Sorting Hat, also of no flavor relevance to his role.
The only explanation I can offer with regards to your role PM (if it is true), is that Time Turner is a specific item related to your character and thus you were given extended flavor elaboration about it.
I'd like to call for a mass full claim at this point.
There's no reason at this point, when almost everything is known, for anything to be kept secret.
Fair enough.
SIWICTOSGAHLTLNUFID
111 Characters (not including spaces or punctuation), 19 Words.
Starting Item was Invisibility Cloak, Tracker. One shot Governor ability. Higher Lynch Threshold. Last Name Umbridge, First is Dolores.
In addition, I missed an ability when making my crypto that allows me to choose 3 players to make a lynch, also 1 shot.
Essentially, it takes 2/3 majority to lynch me. Once per game I can use my first ability to make someone lynch immune for a day (including myself). Also, once per game I can use my 2nd ability to select 3 people to choose the lynch. All votes are reset, and only those 3 people can vote. I can't use both abilities the same day.
I started with the Invisibility Cloak, but it was stolen at the end of day 1. I haven't performed any actions or seen any items since then, although I was roleblocked twice by armlx.
We can test my lynch threshold today if you want. I'd prefer to save my other abilities (well at least the 3 people choose lynch one) for a time when it would be useful.
With 9 players, it should be 6 to lynch me. If you pile on 4 votes, I'll place the 5th. I'd like to be cautious in doing this, though.
@ Loran - I'm worse, BELIEVE ME...but I like a mass claim of EVERYTHING.
@ Dagger - So, let's find this missing map. I don't have it, you don't have it. Spot doesn't have it, Kraj doesn't have it. Chimp/Loran/AI don't have it...
That leaves RafK and Goat. Therefore, assuming you are telling the truth about everything, one of those 2, at least, must be scum. In all honesty, I want to keep both you and Spot around a little longer and lynch the person that comes up scum no matter how the cake is sliced.
Unvote, Vote GoatRevolt - Umm, 4 mafia, 1 sk, SERIOUSLY? There could be 3 mafia, 1 sk in a game half the size. I don't think a townie, in attempt to defend himself, says that the game could end with the lynch of a mere 2 more people, when only 3 scum have been caught (1 SK). And that if it isn't and you are still alive, we should move to Kraj, a strongly believed townie. I guess it's really the only way to defend yourself aside from saying we can't use the process of elimination...
Dagger is correct that there is no precedent that he has to start with the Time Twister. I thought Some One knew Dagger started with the item, but if it's just a hunch off of flavor, then it's not a solid accusation. Items seem to be fairly randomly distributed to start off.
I still want to make my PBPA on both Dagger and Spot before committing to a vote.
Umm, 4 mafia, 1 sk, SERIOUSLY? There could be 3 mafia, 1 sk in a game half the size. I don't think a townie, in attempt to defend himself, says that the game could end with the lynch of a mere 2 more people, when only 3 scum have been caught (1 SK). And that if it isn't and you are still alive, we should move to Kraj, a strongly believed townie. I guess it's really the only way to defend yourself aside from saying we can't use the process of elimination...
Honestly, this is pretty much a null point. We lynch 2 scum, if the game is still going on, then we can re-evaluate. Kraj is about the only person I could see as scum at that point, from my perspective. Also strongly believed townie is meaningless really. Can you even give me the main reason people consider Kraj town? Do you know?
I think the game could end with 2 more dead scum, quite frankly. There were only 4 scum in Hats Mafia, I see no reason why there has to be more here. The only way I can justify additional scum is if someone I currently believe to be town is scum (kraj), thus I think it's more likely to be that there simply are not more scum.
That leaves RafK and Goat. Therefore, assuming you are telling the truth about everything, one of those 2, at least, must be scum. In all honesty, I want to keep both you and Spot around a little longer and lynch the person that comes up scum no matter how the cake is sliced
Actually, it's possible the map is in Dagger or Spot's hands. With item movement, it's certainly possible that Dagger investigated spot, saw he had no items, and then scum could shift a bunch of items to spot. Dagger could also be lying, and still have the map.
Also, Loran can feel free to target me with the sack of galleons. We know RafK has at least 1 item in his inventory, possibly more, thus using the sack on him would be fairly meaningless. RafK could just give Loran his sack of galleons and pretend he has no other items.
I have no items, which would have been verified by Dagger last night. I'm somewhat suspicious of this fact, actually, considering it was not in scum interests to confirm me as itemless at all, and thus the vanillification claim is...suspect.
Anyway, Loran can target me with the sack tonight if he wishes. Either he will get no items from me, or he will get a sack of galleons if RafK targets me with his sack and it happens before Loran's sack of galleons.
Quote from Some One »
Umm, a point was brought up a while ago that the only way he could be scum is something like the masons were scum.
Fairly close. He gave a potion to armlx, which armlx used to prevent getting hit by a curse. Either he's scum, gave a potion to armlx and then had the scum curse him in an effort to verify himself, or he's town. The latter seems more likely.
Quote from Some One »
Also, a more recent point was made that when someone seems to be acting VERY pro-town, chances are they are in actuality, town.
Indeed, it is generally so.
One possibility we haven't really considered is that Dagger/Spot are both scum. It's worth looking into if nothing else.
I have no items, which would have been verified by Dagger last night. I'm somewhat suspicious of this fact, actually, considering it was not in scum interests to confirm me as itemless at all, and thus the vanillification claim is...suspect..
Actually, no, I consider that a point of suspicion on Dagger.
What I mean is this. We're at the point where there are a number of scummy items which would basically prove someone is scum if they were caught with them, such as the Sorting Cap or Marauder's Map. Players verified to not have these items are subsequently seen as more town (though not confirmed by any stretch). Looking at the game from a scum perspective, I'm one of the best mislynch options they have. Most everyone else is confirmed town or highly likely to be town.
Therefore, it doesn't help the scum out to point out that I'm itemless, thus making me a less attractive lynch. Dagger, if scum, was at a point where he had already investigated RafK and Spot. His next logical target for his ability was myself, and he wouldn't want to confirm that I was itemless. Another plausible scenario is that Dagger committed the scum kill while RafK used the sword on AI, and thus Dagger didn't actually investigate me. Rather than take a guess on what items I would have or not have, it was simply easier to claim to get vanillified.
In other words, I'm suspicious of the convenience of this claim.
The remaining scum are GR and Rafaelk, unless Loran/AI are up to no good, but I doubt that at this point.
You can see the consistancies with GR supporting Dagger's arguments throughout, and essentially barning him. I'll make my case against you, GR, tomorrow. RafaelK has seemed to be acting much more like a person replacing scum than a person replacing town.
All I've seen from you in the last page or so has been a bunch of breathless and incomprehensible statements, followed by a post which boils down to "my PM says Dagger is scum but I can't tell you why". And then trying to say "if Dagger is scum, these other two people are scum just because".
And then when prodded by loran, you have produced something very underwhelming.
Quote from Some One »
If you want to dispute the information I have provided in my PM as to why, with everything I said, Dagger would NOT have started with it, you are certainly more than welcome to attempt to do so.
Quote from Some One »
I am a student of Professor McGonagall. I spent weeks working on the ONE polyjuice potion I started the game with. My Professor discussed that in times where she was very busy, she used something called a Time Turner. I don't know exactly what it does, but with the amount of work I receive in school, and all that I hope to accomplish in Hogwarts, I feel like I certainly could put the time turner to great use, as I am a very busy individual.
This doesn't imply that McGonagall started with the time turner, any more than Harry Potter started with invisibility cloak.
Incidentally, do you believe McGonagall exists and started with the time turner, or that Dagger invented the crypto? Because you seem to be in conflict, there.
EWP: Dagger has incidentally said pretty much exactly what I expected regarding the crypto claim point, too, right down to the reason for doing it.
Oh, and Kraj: why did you so immediately back Some One's push sight unseen?
Oh, and spot immediately trying to latch onto this is a pretty strong sign I'm right about him. People insisted on lynching cpe instead of spot yesterday. Can we not let spot go again today?
Oh, and spot immediately trying to latch onto this is a pretty strong sign I'm right about him. People insisted on lynching cpe instead of spot yesterday. Can we not let spot go again today?
Some One said he had role PM information about someone. He appears to have overstated the strength of that information. Unvote
For the record, while i still favor spot over goat/dagger, I'd like to call for a mass full claim at this point.
There's no reason at this point, when almost everything is known, for anything to be kept secret.
That means all items, all abilities, all names and cryptos. It's beyond stupid at this point for 99% of everything to be revealed here and 1%, including 1% about one unknown player, to be unknown.
I agree with this. I've resisted claiming absolutely everything because I'd rather the scum not know exactly what I can do, but at this point I don't think there's much left to be gained by sticking to that. My crypto:
My Role Is Horace E. F. Slughorn, A Jack Of All Trades Variant. Each Night I Can Make A Potion. If I Start The Night With A Potion I May Target A Player With It. Once I Do It Is Used Up But I Can Make It Again The Following Night. The Potions I Can Make Are: Polyjuice Potion, Felix Felicis, Wolfsbane, And Babbling Beverage. I Also Start With Veritaserum But I Can’t Make More Of It. I Can Only Make Felix Felicis Once.
Night 1 I made Felix Felicis.
Night 2 I targeted Big Time with Veritaserum. It was an investigation ability. I chose him because I was suspicious of his mirror role and the fact that there were little differences, such as the fact that I seemed to know more about what wolfsbane does than he did. Most importantly I was suspicious about his claim of Unctious Unction granting night talk, considering it literally means Poisonous Poison. You may recall I mentioned a couple times knowing for a fact the game has flavor inconsistencies. I was referring to the fact that I got a guilty result on Big Time; he lied under the influence of veritaserum.
Night 3 I made Polyjuice Potion and passed it to DYH.
Night 4 I targeted armlx with Felix Felicis, had no items to pass.
Night 5 I made Polyjuice potion and passed it.
Night 6 I made Polyjuice potion and passed it.
Considering PP appears to be the only investigative power left to the town (unless Chimp has an investigative ability), I'd rather those who have it be allowed to keep quiet about it unless it is necessary to do otherwise.
Other than my potion-making, the only contact I've had with items is armlx passed me the Ressurection Stone, and it's not nearly as useful as he thought because he did not read the instructions correctly: the question that can be asked must be a "Yes/No" question. The best use I could come up with was asking Diggy if he protected a certain player the night he died, but at best that would confirm a player and at worst tell us bubkas, whereas making polyjuice potion has the potential to catch scum, so that's what I did.
111 Characters (not including spaces or punctuation), 19 Words.
Starting Item was Invisibility Cloak, Tracker. One shot Governor ability. Higher Lynch Threshold. Last Name Umbridge, First is Dolores.
In addition, I missed an ability when making my crypto that allows me to choose 3 players to make a lynch, also 1 shot.
Essentially, it takes 2/3 majority to lynch me. Once per game I can use my first ability to make someone lynch immune for a day (including myself). Also, once per game I can use my 2nd ability to select 3 people to choose the lynch. All votes are reset, and only those 3 people can vote. I can't use both abilities the same day.
I started with the Invisibility Cloak, but it was stolen at the end of day 1. I haven't performed any actions or seen any items since then, although I was roleblocked twice by armlx.
We can test my lynch threshold today if you want. I'd prefer to save my other abilities (well at least the 3 people choose lynch one) for a time when it would be useful.
With 9 players, it should be 6 to lynch me. If you pile on 4 votes, I'll place the 5th. I'd like to be cautious in doing this, though.
Frankly, this looks to me like the type of claim designed to convince a town not to lynch you rather than a real role. It is also pretty ridiculous that you simply didn't notice you had a one-shot ability to hand the lynch power to three people, which also is a rather broken ability.
I would probably support a spot lynch today, but I think I'm happy with where my vote is.
Fairly close. He gave a potion to armlx, which armlx used to prevent getting hit by a curse. Either he's scum, gave a potion to armlx and then had the scum curse him in an effort to verify himself, or he's town. The latter seems more likely.
For one thing, the former is the same stupid logic DYH tried to smear me with. The ability to doc protect & pardon a player the next day is insanely powerful in the hands of the scum. Whatever the Imperius curse does, it sounds rather nasty to me. The idea of the scum wasting the ability to pardon a player and an imperius curse just to clear one of them is utterly retarded, especially with so many other players essentially cleared at the time.
For another, your facts are wrong. I didn't give armlx the potion, I targeted him with it.
Finally, even if you ignore that, and if you ignore my interactions with the two lynched scum, there is still the fact that I have given polyjuice potion to three players so far this game. DYH, which makes no sense as scum since there is no reason for scum to not simply use information abilities themselves, and two other players who are currently accepted as very likely town. Not only is it absurd that I have done all this just to clear myself, but it also proves I have never performed a night kill since every single night action of mine is accounted for.
In other words, GR is attacking me because there is no one else, not because it makes the tiniest bit of sense that I'm scum.
Oh, and Kraj: why did you so immediately back Some One's push sight unseen?
Partly because I believed his PM was more conclusive that it was, and partly because I didn't see any harm in putting a little pressure on Dagger by backing SomeOne's accusation with a vote to see how he'd react.
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The Golden Rule of forums: If you're going to be rude, be right. If you might be wrong, be polite.
Well, at least for me, that claim goes a long way toward clearing Kraj.
I think he can safely be put aside for now then.
I support a spot lynch unless something changes. I don't like his eagerness to jump on and off of wagons as fleetingly as he has. Not at all.
-Alpha
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Quote from TheFooFish »
Lies! -I'm Buffy Summers, town tracker. I used my ability on you and saw that you didn't use any abilities before the game started. My flavor is I was sucked through a mysterious space-time portal and I'm here to kill all the vampires, and my tracking ability is a combination of my Slayer and Native American skills.
I just want to delve into something we haven't really discussed in quite some time -
What is the chance that the masons are scum? What pro-town actions have they taken that would indicate they are town?
Ya know, if everything is on the table - with recent claims by Dagger and Kraj, I feel the masons should throw everything out there that has not previously been said, as well.
Frankly, this looks to me like the type of claim designed to convince a town not to lynch you rather than a real role. It is also pretty ridiculous that you simply didn't notice you had a one-shot ability to hand the lynch power to three people, which also is a rather broken ability.
A few points.
1. You don't believe my role, yet everything I have claimed (2/3 lynch majority, 1-shot governor, choosing 3 people for the lynch) are all testable. If I am unable to perform any of the 3 above then by all means you should lynch me.
2. Yes, I missed that ability when making my crypto. That was a really busy time in my life with school and other things, and I simply overlooked it. "A convenient excuse" you may say, but if you look back at day 1, I lurked almost the entire first half.
Quote from Kraj »
For one thing, the former is the same stupid logic DYH tried to smear me with. The ability to doc protect & pardon a player the next day is insanely powerful in the hands of the scum. Whatever the Imperius curse does, it sounds rather nasty to me. The idea of the scum wasting the ability to pardon a player and an imperius curse just to clear one of them is utterly retarded, especially with so many other players essentially cleared at the time.
Which is why if you read my post you'll note that I said that the latter makes more sense, i.e. that you are town. You're taking things I say out of context and ignoring other things I say. Look at the big picture.
You're really overreacting here. I'm not calling for your lynch, I don't even think you're scum. I only proposed a what if scenario 2-3 lynches down the road.
Quote from Kraj »
For another, your facts are wrong. I didn't give armlx the potion, I targeted him with it.
Eh, yeah, I had the details wrong.
Quote from Kraj »
Finally, even if you ignore that, and if you ignore my interactions with the two lynched scum, there is still the fact that I have given polyjuice potion to three players so far this game. DYH, which makes no sense as scum since there is no reason for scum to not simply use information abilities themselves, and two other players who are currently accepted as very likely town. Not only is it absurd that I have done all this just to clear myself, but it also proves I have never performed a night kill since every single night action of mine is accounted for.
I didn't have this information, thus you trying to hold me accountable for what I couldn't have known is ridiculous. Yes, I would agree it makes very little sense that you are scum after knowing this. Before, it's not out of the realm of possibilities.
Quote from Kraj »
In other words, GR is attacking me because there is no one else, not because it makes the tiniest bit of sense that I'm scum.
1. I'm not attacking you. I mentioned you offhand as a long-shot possibility far down the road.
2. You're pretty much absolutely correct. I only mentioned you because you are the only one who would make sense as scum in that specific what-if scenario. Please explain how that is scummy at all.
3. I'll agree, it doesn't make much sense that you're scum after your full claim. Again, I didn't have that information at all prior to your claim, so I wasn't able to make judgments like "Kraj couldn't have made a NK" and "Kraj has been giving out investigations to townies."
Kraj, you're suspicious of me entirely because your name was on a list. When I said DYH was scum and I thought Dagger made sense as a scum buddy, Dagger was the only one who raised an objection to it. If you're strictly opposed to the principle of players calling out who they think is scum for future lynches, then why didn't you get on my case for doing that?
My entire point is that what I did wasn't scummy at all. Everyone in this game has been making lists of who they think is scum and orders they want to lynch players. Some One earlier today mentioned that he wanted to lynch Dagger and then he would come after me tomorrow. Why isn't that scummy? It's exactly the same principle you are attacking me for. The only difference is that your name is not at the end of the list. Go back and look at my original statement. I never said you were scum. I only said that if upon lynching two scum, the game isn't over, you would be my top pick for who is scum. That's a lot of what ifs, and if you look at it entirely from my perspective, a perfectly reasonable assumption to make.
Quote from Some One »
What is the chance that the masons are scum? What pro-town actions have they taken that would indicate they are town?
I'm going to say like a 0.1% chance they are scum. If you go back and look through my posts yesterday, I gave reasons to suggest them being town.
I'll ask again, what are the chances that both Dagger and Spot are scum? I'm not really seeing anything to suggest it couldn't be true, and I'm worried that we're setting up a false dichotomy where if one is lynched, the other gets a free pass.
Your Mod. has just made a screw up of epic proportions. This may result in a player needing to be replaced through no fault of his own. I am trying to think it through.
I am very sorry about this.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
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but there's certainly something else in there....
GET ARMLX BACK RIGHT NOW HOLY [EMAIL="!@#$"]!@#$[/EMAIL]......
No, in all seriousness, Kraj, I think we may have a breakthrough, and I need to ask Armlx when he received one of the items he did receive.
Essentially, one thing I must do is UNVOTE. I believe I may have found some scum.
I just need to analyze the history of one of the items Armlx has.
@ Loran - How do you know what the time turner is?
Now, does anyone have any word of what precisely the shield hat is?
I looked in Kraj's post and saw no mention of EITHER of these items...
Hmmmm....
I received it, not AI. It was the night i gained the Galleons as well. Since I couldn't use the galleons while i had it, I passed it to AI...only to get another horcrux (the ****ing firebolt.)
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
What night was this? Was this before/after you said you and AI were masons? AI - what did you then do with it?
.....................Are you forgetting everything about this game every night or something? SERIOUSLY.
Me and AI hinted at being masons day 1 (through cryptos and my defense of him.) I think it became common knowledge day 2.
We received it after this became public knowledge (Last night i got rid of the firebolt, the night before i passed him the time turner, the night before i received the time turner and galleons)
And the freaking thing remained unused for obvious reasons until it was destroyed. Seriously sir, are you paying any attention? IF you have alzheimers or something take notes.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
I doubt it's made up. It's possible Dagger started with it and still has it and is just lying about targeting Jobie with it. It's also possible he's town, did use it, and it got passed to scum who have kept it under wraps. Those seem like the two most likely scenarios.
Tonight we should hopefully actually get legitimately useful night result information.
Do we want Loran/Chimp/Raf to publicly declare targets or not? I can see benefits to either line of thinking.
Calling out targets:
Pro - We don't get a situation where all 3 choose the same target, which would be wasteful.
Pro - We'll have full information on who targeted who for unraveling tomorrow even if one of the 3 is NKed.
Con - Scum have full information about what people are going to be doing at night, and can make the plays that best benefit them.
Despite the con being giving scum a chance to make the play to best benefit them, I'm leaning towards having everyone call out separate targets myself. I think the best play the scum could make in this situation would still be better for us than the worst case scenario if we don't call out targets, which is the situation where we learn nothing useful. I would also like to arrange it such that the most pro-town players are targeting those most suspected. This way we set up a scenario such that if there is a dispute or counterclaim we don't have to employ guesswork in determining if it's scummy player A or scummy player B lying. Instead it would be more like Townie player A against scummy player B making it easier to determine who is lying/telling the truth.
Chimp
Loran
Raf
is my ranking from towniest -> scummiest of those with known relevant night abilities. My only suggestion would be that if I am a chosen investigation target, I would prefer RafK not be the one to do it, because people consider both of us scummy, essentially creating the scummy A vs. scummy B. scenario I wish to avoid. I would be fine with Loran or Chimp targeting me.
One issue I can see is this: Let's say Loran targets RafK with his sack of galleons and RafK targets Some One. Which happens first? How does that interaction pan out? It may be best to avoid that scenario if at all possible.
I know you passed the firebolt night 6, and the TT night 5 for em to get destroyed, and you are saying you got the TT night 4, right?
So, who else wants to share what they know about the time turner?
I think planning whom targets whom is a bad idea and is more likely to help the scum than us.
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
Why?
The best case scenario by calling out targets isn't as high as the possible best case when nobody calls anything out, but you also eliminate horrible worst case scenarios where everyone targets the same person, etc and we learn nothing.
Say Chimp uses the sword and destroys the sorting cap but gets night killed. It's a complete waste. Now let's say Chimp calls out his target and uses the Sword and we see a destroyed sorting cap. Even if they NK Chimp, we would have that information. Sure, we give the scum some leeway in manipulating night results, but there is only so much they can do. If nobody calls anything out, they can still manipulate night actions, but we'll have no base point to judge it off of.
If we didn't have to worry about NKs, then perhaps not calling out targets would be best, but NKs can really screw things over. Getting targeting information out ahead of time > NKs, because we still get information from dead players.
Here's the jist:
This person physically had the item.
This person discussed exactly when they use the item, but not exactly how, nor what it does.
This has inspired me to want to get the item because I could probably make good use of it.
Now, does this mean that person probably started the game with it in their possesion?
Basically you're banking on the chance that we target someone the scum can't do anything about. The chances of that are quite small. Last night Chimp passed the Elder Wand to AI before the Sword took effect. That means if we announce a townie as the Sword target the scum can simply pass an incriminating item to that player; if we announce a scum target who has an incriminating item they can simply pass it away. Announcing the target completely nullifies the scum-catching potential.
The Galleon sacks are a different story since they swap before any other item actions occur, however they have the weakness that if the targeted player has an inciminating item and a non-incriminating item they will simply give up the non-incriminating item. I wouldn't be totally opposed to claiming those targets ahead of time so they don't double up provided that it is understood Chimp may choose to use the sword on one of those targets as well.
Without seeing the exact text of your PM (obviously do not post it) and the nuances of the wording it's a little scary to draw a conclusion based on it. But from what you describe I agree with your interpretation; I think I know exactly who and what you're talking about and I'm willing to take the risk on lynching that player.
Unvote
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
Vote Dagger
2 Reasons
1 - Minerva McGonagall is head of Gryffindor House. There's no house of McGonagall. I am proposing that you made 2 crypto-claims, secretly in your own time, that could both apply in the future. It should read, Minerva McGonagall, head of House of Gryiffindor....etc....etc.....
Note on this - I found this out on the web, and have read none of the books. If a house of McGonagall exists, please enlighten me - it doesn't show up when I looked on the internet.
2 - You almost definitely started the game with the time turner, not the completely made up marauder's map. Based on my PM, it is evident that you certainly have great knowledge of the item, and with my PM and what Loran says it is, it is pretty evident that scum would start with this item, not town. I can go into the whole reasoning why scum would start with it as opposed to town, but I don't know if I can get that specific with the revealing of the information in my PM.
I do applaud you for your efforts, Dagger, certainly gave us all a run for our money. I am happy, however, that I caught my first scum.
One thing, I could have waited for you to talk about the item first, but that never would have happened, and then you would just deny it then as you are going to now, so might as well get to the point.
Vote: Dagger
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
...
I've read the books, and I'm sure that most of the people in the game have as well. I'm pretty pissed that I didn't catch this...
The evidence on Dagger seems pretty damning and I'll be voting him once we have our night plan in order.
Also, it is probably relevant that I currently possess a shield hat and without going into details, it is safe to follow through with a plan that requires me surviving the night.
3CB and 4CB5CB!You can see the consistancies with GR supporting Dagger's arguments throughout, and essentially barning him. I'll make my case against you, GR, tomorrow. RafaelK has seemed to be acting much more like a person replacing scum than a person replacing town.
Also - ty to the person who passed me what you passed me, I'm pretty sure I know who you are, and I also know what I am going to do with it tonight.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Also you're going to have to explain this better. The crypto bit is meh, it sounds like a typo...it's kind of impossible to game cryptos imo. But i don't think i'll take your word for something like this without more explanation.
Reminds me of AH in magic mafia. Especially since you've been fuddling around making useless questions the last 3 days.
(PS: I will be fasting starting tonight and observing Yom Kippur, activity will be none during this period. Don't lynch anyone until Friday or Saturday because of this. Thanks)
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
If you want to dispute the information I have provided in my PM as to why, with everything I said, Dagger would NOT have started with it, you are certainly more than welcome to attempt to do so.
Anyway, there's several reasons he would pass it as opposed to use it. If he used it, and it passed randomly, it could wind up as a horcrux for his scum buddy. Overall, it isn't quite as powerful as it is made to seem in my role PM. Therefore, he'd rather pass a horcrux to a known townie than the alternative of using a rather weak item and horcruxing a scum buddy into being unable to use his abilities/items that night.
Furthermore, I am quite sure that he passed it probably passed it away fairly early, in other words, someone else probably had it or used it before you, but after him.
Seems obvious to me: it's a horcrux, and you had just received an item that can catch scum the night before.
In that case,
Unvote
Regarding spot's claim, so far we've had four claims of item movement: the firebolt, the Sword, the Elder Wand, and an unknown item passed to Some One. I also know of an item being passed, which makes 5. Does anyone have any others?
As far as I know.
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
Let's spell this out. Here's the just of things:
I am a student of Professor McGonagall. I spent weeks working on the ONE polyjuice potion I started the game with. My Professor discussed that in times where she was very busy, she used something called a Time Turner. I don't know exactly what it does, but with the amount of work I receive in school, and all that I hope to accomplish in Hogwarts, I feel like I certainly could put the time turner to great use, as I am a very busy individual.
Loran/AI are town. Chimp is town. I feel confident you are town. RafK is almost certainly scum. I can prove that I am not scum tomorrow when I claim. If the game doesn't end when Dagger/RafK are dead, then Kraj would be the last scum.
This is actually laughable. I was the one making the push towards lynching Dagger. I backed off because I thought Kraj made solid arguments and my read of day 1 made it seem like Dagger wasn't scum with Ged. Prior to that, I was the one pushing we lynch Dagger, starting from the day we lynched DYH.
Furthermore, barning? Far from it. Provide examples. In fact, I've probably been the person least barning Dagger (outside of spot). If you look through my posts, you'll see that I'm one of the only people who doesn't consider the marauder's map a town tell for Dagger.
Ironically enough, I was getting town vibes from spot today, which is why I hadn't voted him yet.
No. How does a townie react in this situation? Assume for a second that I'm town, then ask yourself how I would play in this scenario? Do my actions make sense from town? You're using "confirmation bias". In other words, you've already assumed that I'm scum, and now are going back and showing how my actions could fit if I am scum. What you should do is go back through and see if my actions make me likely to be scum, rather than start from the conclusion that I'm scum and try to justify how my actions fit that persona.
You've put me in a completely lose-lose situation. Yesterday, you were accusing me of being a scum buddy to CPE. I gave reasons why we shouldn't lynch CPE, which were ignored and brushed aside as me being CPE's scum buddy. When it turns out I was right, you change the scenario around to now suggest that I was just scum defending a townie. No matter how I act, you can accuse me of either trying to engineer a townie mislynch, defending a townie to look good, or busing a scum buddy. You've left no option for how a townie can play.
Your entire argument here is based around the situation that I've engineered to make myself look like "a wrong townie" when the more simple explanation is that I simply am a wrong townie.
----
To keep you from using the sack of galleons.
I suggest we don't lynch Dagger quite yet. I was starting up a PBPA on both him and Spot, and would like to finish those first.
In certain fantasy lore and stories, when you use the term House or Clan as part of your name, it signifies a familial connection or family name. "House McGonagall" means "of the McGonagall". I have read through all the 7 books, albeit only once and never bother rereading since. Why the heck would I forget something so bloody common as that? I was worried that if I put two M's together right in front of my crypto, it would be bloody obvious to whoever seeking to break my crypto that I am Minerva McGonagall, which was why I put a spacer in between.
I started the game with the bloody map, not the time turner. What the hell was I doing crypto-ing an item (the Map) in my crypto, that was almost certainly going to be in the game and running the risk of an item counterclaim if said item popped up later? Remember we crypto-ed right in the beginning of Day 1 before anything else happened.
You inferred from your PM (if there really was said information there in the first place and not just something completely made up) that I possessed knowledge on a Time Turner and therefore I must start with one. Well, let me inform you. I did not start with a Time Turner, despite what your flavor may indicate to you. If I did, why not just crypto-ed it instead in my crypto-claim?
You are assuming 1. I start with a Time Turner and 2. Scums start with Time Turner. You are using two erroneous assumptions in support of each other, both of which has no actual basis and said, look it's perfectly logical, and since they supported each other, they must be true.
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
Ugh. That's not nearly as solid as I had expected. I can see where you might interpret that to mean McGonagall started the game with the Time Turner, but I don't think it is conclusive at all.
Stuff like this is what puts you as my #2 scum pick, GR. You name two lynch targets, then say after they are dead then someone else is scum. That's a classic scum tactic of encouraging lynches as process of elimination instead of behavior. Calling Raf almost certain scum is laughable, then you name Dagger as if it is a foregone conclusion, and then follow up by naming me as the last possible scum, which is utterly retarded. Not to mention you claim you can prove yourself to be town tomorrow. Why don't you do that right now?
Vote: GoatRevolt
I want you to claim. You're the only player other than Chimp, who I trust, who has yet to full claim and you've slid far enough down my townie ranking that I don't think you deserve a pass any longer.
I think Dagger's reaction is reasonable. It's true that it doesn't make much sense for him to false crypto the Marauder's Map when he started with another item that is not inherently scummy.
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
I'll think about claiming. I had a couple of reasons for wanting to hold off until tomorrow, but it may not really make a difference, and one of them was more for anticipation/fun factor anyway. Obviously I'll claim if more people want it, but I'll consider it anyway.
Secondly, nobody has presented a case against me, or any reasons why I should be lynched outside of process of elimination. Some One's case, for example, starts from the assumption that I'm scum, and works backwards. I'm guessing that initial assumption that I'm scum is based off of process of elimination. If you want me to be lynched, then present a case that doesn't involve process of elimination as reason to lynch me, otherwise nobody has any right calling me out on that point. I encourage you to read through my posts. There are plenty of places I have been pro-town that have been ignored/overlooked. Even yesterday, my defense of CPE was pro-town, but that has apparently led to an even greater level of suspicion on me.
I named you as scum only if the game doesn't end with Rafk and Dagger/Spot. From my perspective, that is not a ridiculous assumption at all, and I don't see why this has you so up in arms. I don't see how this is scummy at all, and it's absolutely no different than what you or anyone else has been doing. You have me as your number 2 suspect, which I assume means that after lynching your number one suspect that you will suspect me as scum. It's a completely identical scenario to what you think is scummy about what I said, you're only overreacting because you are the named player.
Kraj: I want to lynch spot, and after that Goatrevolt
Goat: I want to lynch Dagger/Rafk and after that Kraj.
Show me the difference or why yours is townie and mine is scummy. Perhaps the difference is that I'm "setting up lynches" whereas you merely "have a scum list." If so, that difference is purely semantics, as both are exactly the same.
I think Rafk is scum in any scenario, and lynching the scum of Dagger/Spot will be game ending. 4 scum, 1 sk. Not terribly unreasonable, and to me it's more likely than Kraj or Some One being scum. Only if the game doesn't end would I consider Kraj scum, as I find Some One more townie than him.
Also, you used MM in the middle of the post like it was no big deal. Out of some of the people who decoded, such as CPE, and what I was able to decipher out of FLs, neither player so blatantly went. *INSERT NAME*...
I just find it awkward out of everything you could have done, you chose something that is very sly overall. You could have been more typical, saying something like, "IATHOGDSPCMMM" or "I am the head of gryffindor house, some people call me minerva mcgonagall...." IN which case, your name could be ANYTHING. Overall, I just don't like the spacer you used, especially after seeing what other, non-scum, individuals have done.
I know analyzing the precise way for which you formulated your crypto is getting this next to no where, but Minerva of House McGonagall has yet to make sense to me, a non-reader, and Spot, a reader. If anyone else could shine some light on this topic, that'd be great.
Anyway, @ Dagger, who did you investigate with your ability night 5 and 6? Furthermore, can you elaborate on your vanillafication? Also, when you say item inventory starts with marauder's map - can you clarify that, add the needed punctuation?
@ Others, if someone can provide some information regarding whether they started with an item that makes sense for their character or not, that would be great. (I.e - I started with a potion that I used at a point during the series)
Also, in the books, in reference to the time turner, Professor McGonagall gave it to me at some point. I'm just finding it weird that it was referenced in my PM yet the person of that character in game has no knowledge of anything about it, clearly something I expected, as it is already known where my gut lies.
This is the difference between FLAVOR and actual role information. What you have most likely constitutes flavor.
For the record, while i still favor spot over goat/dagger, I'd like to call for a mass full claim at this point.
There's no reason at this point, when almost everything is known, for anything to be kept secret.
That means all items, all abilities, all names and cryptos. It's beyond stupid at this point for 99% of everything to be revealed here and 1%, including 1% about one unknown player, to be unknown.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
I have broken my crypto for like several game days now, and no one has called me on it. And then spot suddenly popped up after your exclamation saying, "oh damn, that name thing certainly is convincing, no?" and then proceeded to vote me while utterly ignoring your other more important non-tacked on point. How can you believe him to be town after that utterly fake stunt?
IIRC, Kraj has read the books as well and even he said the wording is a roundabout way to write my name without putting the two words together.
Also, I deemed the MM in the middle of my crypto to be no big deal, precisely because it's in the middle of my crypto. It's not at the front nor the back where I deemed scums would most likely focus on in order to break the name. I have made several cryptos in my games here on this site and I usually use different way each time to lock them up. In addition, I don't see how you can compare each individual's method of locking their crypto-claim.
My crypto was very direct. How can spacing two words slightly apart in a relevant way be considered "sly"? If anything, the crypto you proposed for me is more sneaky in that it adds multiple irrelevant words to allow modifications.
I am a fan of fictions. Of the top of my head, I can give Dune, in which I believed there were three main Houses, and the stories revolving around them.
Night 5, I targeted Spot and came up with no item. Night 6, I targeted GR but was blocked. There was some battle with an unknown assailant, after which I was defeated and tortured with Cruciatus for long periods of time. That was the flavor given to me in which I lost my ability.
Your request of clarification with regards to those words is that they are split, "item inventory" was part of my ability while "starts with marauder's map" was my starting item.
Also, off the top of my head, I can give you that Diggy as Tonks started with the Sorting Hat, also of no flavor relevance to his role.
The only explanation I can offer with regards to your role PM (if it is true), is that Time Turner is a specific item related to your character and thus you were given extended flavor elaboration about it.
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
Fair enough.
SIWICTOSGAHLTLNUFID
111 Characters (not including spaces or punctuation), 19 Words.
Starting Item was Invisibility Cloak, Tracker. One shot Governor ability. Higher Lynch Threshold. Last Name Umbridge, First is Dolores.
In addition, I missed an ability when making my crypto that allows me to choose 3 players to make a lynch, also 1 shot.
Essentially, it takes 2/3 majority to lynch me. Once per game I can use my first ability to make someone lynch immune for a day (including myself). Also, once per game I can use my 2nd ability to select 3 people to choose the lynch. All votes are reset, and only those 3 people can vote. I can't use both abilities the same day.
I started with the Invisibility Cloak, but it was stolen at the end of day 1. I haven't performed any actions or seen any items since then, although I was roleblocked twice by armlx.
We can test my lynch threshold today if you want. I'd prefer to save my other abilities (well at least the 3 people choose lynch one) for a time when it would be useful.
With 9 players, it should be 6 to lynch me. If you pile on 4 votes, I'll place the 5th. I'd like to be cautious in doing this, though.
@ Dagger - So, let's find this missing map. I don't have it, you don't have it. Spot doesn't have it, Kraj doesn't have it. Chimp/Loran/AI don't have it...
That leaves RafK and Goat. Therefore, assuming you are telling the truth about everything, one of those 2, at least, must be scum. In all honesty, I want to keep both you and Spot around a little longer and lynch the person that comes up scum no matter how the cake is sliced.
Unvote, Vote GoatRevolt - Umm, 4 mafia, 1 sk, SERIOUSLY? There could be 3 mafia, 1 sk in a game half the size. I don't think a townie, in attempt to defend himself, says that the game could end with the lynch of a mere 2 more people, when only 3 scum have been caught (1 SK). And that if it isn't and you are still alive, we should move to Kraj, a strongly believed townie. I guess it's really the only way to defend yourself aside from saying we can't use the process of elimination...
O and BTW - @ Goat - claim now.
I still want to make my PBPA on both Dagger and Spot before committing to a vote.
RafK.
Honestly, this is pretty much a null point. We lynch 2 scum, if the game is still going on, then we can re-evaluate. Kraj is about the only person I could see as scum at that point, from my perspective. Also strongly believed townie is meaningless really. Can you even give me the main reason people consider Kraj town? Do you know?
I think the game could end with 2 more dead scum, quite frankly. There were only 4 scum in Hats Mafia, I see no reason why there has to be more here. The only way I can justify additional scum is if someone I currently believe to be town is scum (kraj), thus I think it's more likely to be that there simply are not more scum.
IDK why, but I really want to believe you...
Hence, I want RafK to claim.
Umm, a point was brought up a while ago that the only way he could be scum is something like the masons were scum.
Also, a more recent point was made that when someone seems to be acting VERY pro-town, chances are they are in actuality, town.
Actually, it's possible the map is in Dagger or Spot's hands. With item movement, it's certainly possible that Dagger investigated spot, saw he had no items, and then scum could shift a bunch of items to spot. Dagger could also be lying, and still have the map.
Also, Loran can feel free to target me with the sack of galleons. We know RafK has at least 1 item in his inventory, possibly more, thus using the sack on him would be fairly meaningless. RafK could just give Loran his sack of galleons and pretend he has no other items.
I have no items, which would have been verified by Dagger last night. I'm somewhat suspicious of this fact, actually, considering it was not in scum interests to confirm me as itemless at all, and thus the vanillification claim is...suspect.
Anyway, Loran can target me with the sack tonight if he wishes. Either he will get no items from me, or he will get a sack of galleons if RafK targets me with his sack and it happens before Loran's sack of galleons.
Fairly close. He gave a potion to armlx, which armlx used to prevent getting hit by a curse. Either he's scum, gave a potion to armlx and then had the scum curse him in an effort to verify himself, or he's town. The latter seems more likely.
Indeed, it is generally so.
One possibility we haven't really considered is that Dagger/Spot are both scum. It's worth looking into if nothing else.
Clarify?
What's suspect and what are you suspicious of?
Like, you see Dagger as town?
Actually, no, I consider that a point of suspicion on Dagger.
What I mean is this. We're at the point where there are a number of scummy items which would basically prove someone is scum if they were caught with them, such as the Sorting Cap or Marauder's Map. Players verified to not have these items are subsequently seen as more town (though not confirmed by any stretch). Looking at the game from a scum perspective, I'm one of the best mislynch options they have. Most everyone else is confirmed town or highly likely to be town.
Therefore, it doesn't help the scum out to point out that I'm itemless, thus making me a less attractive lynch. Dagger, if scum, was at a point where he had already investigated RafK and Spot. His next logical target for his ability was myself, and he wouldn't want to confirm that I was itemless. Another plausible scenario is that Dagger committed the scum kill while RafK used the sword on AI, and thus Dagger didn't actually investigate me. Rather than take a guess on what items I would have or not have, it was simply easier to claim to get vanillified.
In other words, I'm suspicious of the convenience of this claim.
All I've seen from you in the last page or so has been a bunch of breathless and incomprehensible statements, followed by a post which boils down to "my PM says Dagger is scum but I can't tell you why". And then trying to say "if Dagger is scum, these other two people are scum just because".
And then when prodded by loran, you have produced something very underwhelming.
This doesn't imply that McGonagall started with the time turner, any more than Harry Potter started with invisibility cloak.
Incidentally, do you believe McGonagall exists and started with the time turner, or that Dagger invented the crypto? Because you seem to be in conflict, there.
EWP: Dagger has incidentally said pretty much exactly what I expected regarding the crypto claim point, too, right down to the reason for doing it.
Oh, and Kraj: why did you so immediately back Some One's push sight unseen?
Oh, and spot immediately trying to latch onto this is a pretty strong sign I'm right about him. People insisted on lynching cpe instead of spot yesterday. Can we not let spot go again today?
Go pay attention. I have nothing left to claim, it's all out.
Some One said he had role PM information about someone. He appears to have overstated the strength of that information. Unvote
I agree with this. I've resisted claiming absolutely everything because I'd rather the scum not know exactly what I can do, but at this point I don't think there's much left to be gained by sticking to that. My crypto:
MRIHEFSAJOATVENICMAPIISTNWAPIMTAPWIOIDIIUUBICMIATF NTPICMAPPFFWABBIASWVBICMMOIICOMFFO
84 Words, 337 characters without spaces
My Role Is Horace E. F. Slughorn, A Jack Of All Trades Variant. Each Night I Can Make A Potion. If I Start The Night With A Potion I May Target A Player With It. Once I Do It Is Used Up But I Can Make It Again The Following Night. The Potions I Can Make Are: Polyjuice Potion, Felix Felicis, Wolfsbane, And Babbling Beverage. I Also Start With Veritaserum But I Can’t Make More Of It. I Can Only Make Felix Felicis Once.
Night 1 I made Felix Felicis.
Night 2 I targeted Big Time with Veritaserum. It was an investigation ability. I chose him because I was suspicious of his mirror role and the fact that there were little differences, such as the fact that I seemed to know more about what wolfsbane does than he did. Most importantly I was suspicious about his claim of Unctious Unction granting night talk, considering it literally means Poisonous Poison. You may recall I mentioned a couple times knowing for a fact the game has flavor inconsistencies. I was referring to the fact that I got a guilty result on Big Time; he lied under the influence of veritaserum.
Night 3 I made Polyjuice Potion and passed it to DYH.
Night 4 I targeted armlx with Felix Felicis, had no items to pass.
Night 5 I made Polyjuice potion and passed it.
Night 6 I made Polyjuice potion and passed it.
Considering PP appears to be the only investigative power left to the town (unless Chimp has an investigative ability), I'd rather those who have it be allowed to keep quiet about it unless it is necessary to do otherwise.
Other than my potion-making, the only contact I've had with items is armlx passed me the Ressurection Stone, and it's not nearly as useful as he thought because he did not read the instructions correctly: the question that can be asked must be a "Yes/No" question. The best use I could come up with was asking Diggy if he protected a certain player the night he died, but at best that would confirm a player and at worst tell us bubkas, whereas making polyjuice potion has the potential to catch scum, so that's what I did.
Frankly, this looks to me like the type of claim designed to convince a town not to lynch you rather than a real role. It is also pretty ridiculous that you simply didn't notice you had a one-shot ability to hand the lynch power to three people, which also is a rather broken ability.
I would probably support a spot lynch today, but I think I'm happy with where my vote is.
For one thing, the former is the same stupid logic DYH tried to smear me with. The ability to doc protect & pardon a player the next day is insanely powerful in the hands of the scum. Whatever the Imperius curse does, it sounds rather nasty to me. The idea of the scum wasting the ability to pardon a player and an imperius curse just to clear one of them is utterly retarded, especially with so many other players essentially cleared at the time.
For another, your facts are wrong. I didn't give armlx the potion, I targeted him with it.
Finally, even if you ignore that, and if you ignore my interactions with the two lynched scum, there is still the fact that I have given polyjuice potion to three players so far this game. DYH, which makes no sense as scum since there is no reason for scum to not simply use information abilities themselves, and two other players who are currently accepted as very likely town. Not only is it absurd that I have done all this just to clear myself, but it also proves I have never performed a night kill since every single night action of mine is accounted for.
In other words, GR is attacking me because there is no one else, not because it makes the tiniest bit of sense that I'm scum.
Partly because I believed his PM was more conclusive that it was, and partly because I didn't see any harm in putting a little pressure on Dagger by backing SomeOne's accusation with a vote to see how he'd react.
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
I think he can safely be put aside for now then.
I support a spot lynch unless something changes. I don't like his eagerness to jump on and off of wagons as fleetingly as he has. Not at all.
-Alpha
What is the chance that the masons are scum? What pro-town actions have they taken that would indicate they are town?
Ya know, if everything is on the table - with recent claims by Dagger and Kraj, I feel the masons should throw everything out there that has not previously been said, as well.
A few points.
1. You don't believe my role, yet everything I have claimed (2/3 lynch majority, 1-shot governor, choosing 3 people for the lynch) are all testable. If I am unable to perform any of the 3 above then by all means you should lynch me.
2. Yes, I missed that ability when making my crypto. That was a really busy time in my life with school and other things, and I simply overlooked it. "A convenient excuse" you may say, but if you look back at day 1, I lurked almost the entire first half.
Which is why if you read my post you'll note that I said that the latter makes more sense, i.e. that you are town. You're taking things I say out of context and ignoring other things I say. Look at the big picture.
You're really overreacting here. I'm not calling for your lynch, I don't even think you're scum. I only proposed a what if scenario 2-3 lynches down the road.
Eh, yeah, I had the details wrong.
I didn't have this information, thus you trying to hold me accountable for what I couldn't have known is ridiculous. Yes, I would agree it makes very little sense that you are scum after knowing this. Before, it's not out of the realm of possibilities.
1. I'm not attacking you. I mentioned you offhand as a long-shot possibility far down the road.
2. You're pretty much absolutely correct. I only mentioned you because you are the only one who would make sense as scum in that specific what-if scenario. Please explain how that is scummy at all.
3. I'll agree, it doesn't make much sense that you're scum after your full claim. Again, I didn't have that information at all prior to your claim, so I wasn't able to make judgments like "Kraj couldn't have made a NK" and "Kraj has been giving out investigations to townies."
Kraj, you're suspicious of me entirely because your name was on a list. When I said DYH was scum and I thought Dagger made sense as a scum buddy, Dagger was the only one who raised an objection to it. If you're strictly opposed to the principle of players calling out who they think is scum for future lynches, then why didn't you get on my case for doing that?
My entire point is that what I did wasn't scummy at all. Everyone in this game has been making lists of who they think is scum and orders they want to lynch players. Some One earlier today mentioned that he wanted to lynch Dagger and then he would come after me tomorrow. Why isn't that scummy? It's exactly the same principle you are attacking me for. The only difference is that your name is not at the end of the list. Go back and look at my original statement. I never said you were scum. I only said that if upon lynching two scum, the game isn't over, you would be my top pick for who is scum. That's a lot of what ifs, and if you look at it entirely from my perspective, a perfectly reasonable assumption to make.
I'm going to say like a 0.1% chance they are scum. If you go back and look through my posts yesterday, I gave reasons to suggest them being town.
I'll ask again, what are the chances that both Dagger and Spot are scum? I'm not really seeing anything to suggest it couldn't be true, and I'm worried that we're setting up a false dichotomy where if one is lynched, the other gets a free pass.
I am very sorry about this.