Lastly, if Stormblind is scum, I'll be shocked. He's posting far too much and far too aggressively for that. Not to mention the speed at which this wagon took off.
If he truly is the SK, that would explain the speed factor. Possibly the change in playstyle as well.
PPE: Just got a reply to my PM from Abbey. My claim was sufficient to do whatever it does. Unfortunately, I was not given a clear explanation what that is, only a substantial amount of flavor that could be interpreted in any number of ways.
At any rate, maintaining my claim for the remainder of the game should be enough to maintain whatever was done, so I needn't repeat or revise on subsequent days as far as I'm aware.
Was I scum hunting? Yeah. Absolutly. I accused him of doing scummy things first. I followed that up by saying that, hay, even if you are a townie, this is terrible logic.
Already covering your bases for if Stormblind gets lynched and turns up town?
Also, this caught my eye:
Quote from ZasZ »
On the quote: When you are townie - even when you are vanilla - you defend yourself; you don't play the "town interest" gambit that early. Especially not with an ambigious role claim like that - you hinted at something different from townie vanilla more than once and even during your claim - now you re between getting lynched for being stubborn, for being clever or being a liar. Good job! I'll think about SB, when I have a count on the votes, but this is almost looking worth it.
=> I don't see why we wouldn't lynch SB today with such an behviour ATM. Vote pending.
@WoD: you are currently analyzing flavour - I think you don't want to do so. Either SB tells us what he knows or not, but don't wrap up claims for the player we're looking at. It's not like the claim wasn't bad enough.
@SB: When you are town you'll feel my wrath in the post-game. Me :2mana::symw::symw: you!
@Whoever criticised Grak for saying he'd lynch SB regardless of alignment: When a player doesn't take part in the discussion in the proper way that play must be punished - otherwise scum could adept that play; so even when SB comes up town we will have a benefit - players are encouraged to participate - giving scum more chances to slip up.
SB plays against the interest of the town.
You seem pretty confident that SB's coming up town yet want to lynch him.
Furthermore, this last piece of logic is absolutely horrible. Oh, well even if we lynch non-participating townies at least that will scare the lurker scum into posting - that'll do it! You know not all scum lurk, right? And not everyone who lurks is scum. Swiss cheese logic.
If I had two votes, I'd put my other one back on you. I need to resolve the Grak issue first.
His behavior. The fact that he claimed 'Vanilla for now', without feeling the need to clarify(particularly so because he claimed early, in order to 'save time', but didn't claim in any way that made sense).
I honestly don't have any reason to believe i am anything BUT vanilla except for the way that my PM is worded. It seems off for some reason, and i cant place my finger on it. That's another reason im moderately fine with a Stormblind lynch, this is a specialty, and im a vanilla. Meaning, there's probably something else going on that im not aware of with my role.
@Stormblind: If you're letting yourself get lynched just because you don't like the personalities of some players that have deigned to play in this game, please don't. I know how you feel, but, you signed up for the game, and made a commitment to play. It's not fair to whichever team your or, or to AG, for you to essentially give up. If this isn't the case, then feel free to disregard this message. But something tells me that I'm right.
I'm not giving up, HONESTLY, its that i know from a "cost-benefit" analysis, im probably the least painful of a lynch that would happen for the town, other then a scum lynch. I will fight to stay alive, im not giving up, but at the same time i expect to die because vanilla's on day one always do.
Quote from vamp »
DYH already commented on it, but since I have the post queued up, I agree 100% in calling BS that you're asking for reasons when you don't give any for your own actions. At least Chamber never asked people why. How about staying consistant?
I was joking around since everyone kept yelling at me that analysis and reasoning are good.
Quote from Zasz »
SB just takes a stance and gets stubborn on it; I despise this attitude. It's often a hint at players being to lazy to make their own case or that don't want to get connected with a case and let townies make the dirty work
Actually, if you'll check my record, i tend to not make cases because when i tend to believe someones scummy, its for stupid minor things that ARENT really scum tells. But at the same time, ask most mods whose games ive been in and my gut reactions do well. I tend to trust my gut because... well... suffice to say, i love Vig roles. At this point, there's very little in way of reasoning for my dislike of Jsexton, there's that one minor tell, which grak blew up way bigger then he should have. And if you look at any other game ive played in with you, you'll notice i tend to vote for someone i find scummy, but continue to contribute to the remainder of the discussions and vote along town wishes when the need arises. Votes are the primary way to analyze someone, and i like it to be known precisely where my suspicions lie.
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[19:59] greymon90210: Hey StormBlind how tall are you? "I'm six money *****, don't forget it"
"The Critics always said that we'd only have a black president when pigs flu"...
@Grak: You're doing another thing that hasn't been addressed yet. You say DYH said "You're doing A." You then defend yourself and then you say he said, "Ha! you're doing B." What's the difference between saying, "You said you'd lynch someone regardless of alignment because of their alignment." and "You said you'd lynch a townie with horrible behavior." The difference is solely the wording the way I see it, and either way those statements are scummy. You happen to be quoted with saying the latter. Unvote, Vote: Grakthis
Funny, I never said I'd lynch a townie with horrible behavior.
I also never said I'd lynch someone regardless of alignment.
So, since I never said either of those two things....
Please, find me the quote where i said I'd lynch a townie with horrible behavior. Because I can show you one where I directly say the opposite.
I read plenty far enough to know that Bugman was dead right about you, and you continued to argue the point until you were blue in the face and didn't have a whole lot of agreement on your side after the game was over.
Ah, so what you're saying is... after I was dead, and I no longer had anything to hide, you saw me tell you that arguing semantics is not a scum tell.
And yet, your'e still accusing me of it? So you're saying that AFTER THE GAME i was still lying? So you're actually attacking me PERSONALLY now? You're saying that after the game was over, and I had no incentive to lie to anyone, I was still lying to Bugman? Is that what you're saying?
Quote from DYH »
BS - you flat-out got caught. You can't say "I'm Grakthis, this is how I argue" and expect people to just accept that.
How many non-mafia threads do I have to find you where I argued semantics before you shut up? Seriously. Give me a number and I will find you that many. I highly doubt you will name a number that is larger than I can find quickly and easily.
Word usage is significant. There is a massive difference between "Grak wants to lynch a disruptive townie" and "Grak wants to lynch a player who is either scum or a disruptive townie." MASSIVE difference.
Quote from DYH »
By the way, if you go back and read my original post, you'll see that I've accused you of exactly what you think I've "changed" my story to all along. I said your comment better fit JSex's accusation directed at SB than his did. Go back, read it. It's there in print. I don't find comments about lynching disruptive townies even remotely related to scum hunting.
More misleading comments. You pretend the only thing I was discussing was the possibility of mislynching a disruptive townie. You completely ignore where I was pushing the lynch on a SCUMMY PLAYER.
Me: "We should lynch X because he's scummy, plus, there's the bonus that if he's not, he's not a useful townie."
DYH: "Stop trying to lynch townies just because they are not useful."
Me: "Right... did you miss the whole first half of that sentance or are you ignoring it intentionally?"
if you want to rewind and decide EXACTLY what it is you're accusing me of, we can start this discussion over.
Quote from DYH »
Lastly, if Stormblind is scum, I'll be shocked. He's posting far too much and far too aggressively for that. Not to mention the speed at which this wagon took off.
Really? Because wagons on scum never take off quickly? Amazing how selective your memory is.... because in the very game you are quoting, Marles was scum and his bandwagon took off like a rocket.
Funny.... you remember everything else about Online mafia. How come you don't remember that?
Yeah, actually, this early, I think that's enough for a Vote: StormBlind.
He's jumping on JSexton on some really terrible points and JSexton's low postcount is probably giving SB the illusion that JSexton is a nub and easy pickins. He's horrendously wrong.
I consider the line about "This seems INCREDIBLY similar to the whole, "Its rare to lynch a scum day one, so lets lynch whoever!" Which is generally a really strong scum tell, soo..." to be not only misleading, but intentionally so. This is blatantly misrepresenting what Jsexton said.
It's not exactly "OMG HE'S SCUM!" but it's a pretty good tell for this early in the game.
Sorry for the tripple post, but this needs to be tacked onto the end.
this is my first post regarding stormbind. MY INTITIAL VOTE FOR HIM AND ACCUSATION CAME LONG BEFORE I SAID A WORD ABOUT HIM BEING A BAD TOWNIE.
Order of events:
1) I say Stormbind is scummy.
2) Stormind says things that demonstrate bad play.
3) I say "that is bad play. Even if you're a townie, you're hurting us."
4) DYH accuses me of wanting to lynch bad townies.
Does anyone else see the problem with the accusation DYH is making? I voted for Stormbind long before any conversation about Stormbind being a bad townie become relevant.
If not, I will happily lynch you just to get you out of the game. Seriously. A distruptive townie is everybit as bad as scum. Either play mafia, or ask to be replaced.
I read this as saying you want to lynch someone whether they're a townie or not.
I don't give a **** if you voted him before you made this statement. The statement is scummy either way.
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Mafia Stats (10-22 Overall) Random Mafia 2 Town MVP '08 MTGS Fantasy Football Overall Champion Best Non-SK Neutral Performance (Individual)
Looks like Jobie certainly called you out on that one.
Vote Grakthis. In Matrix Mafia, which just finished, Grakthis was town. His behavior in that game was *markedly* different than in this game. Draw your own conclusions. I know what mine is.
I've read through what he said, and he's basically the same thing I am - StormBlind has not been playing in a pro-town manner, and thus is a good candidate for a lynch. Either he is scum (non-town) or he is town; if he is town, then he is actively hurting the town by doing the scum's job for them, which is distracting the town and creating an easy wagon on a townie. I gave him the benefit of the doubt early on, but I changed my mind after the exchange with jerubbaal.
SB is experienced enough that he should know that vanilla townies shouldn't be trying to draw wagons and then basically giving up. He *says* he's not giving up, but he's not really showing it. As Grak has said, he's basically stated that he's not going to play Mafia - he attacks someone for being "confrontational," and he dismisses accusations against him by claiming it's just his playstyle. Which, actually, I believe is false - I've never seen SB play this way either as town or scum in the past (though I've never seen him play SK or vanilla town).
In addition, SB's claim and post #206 are both non-townish. 1) He says he's claiming to avoid wasting time, but indicates that he's hiding information with his "at current" clause. 2) His #206
Nope, i fully expect to die today, and thats alright. A Currently-vanilla lynch is fine for a day 1, but do try to take a look at the people pushing against me tomorrow
does not suggest he's playing in the town's interest. If he were actually townie, he would not be resigning himself to being lynched, and he would know that his wagon is almost useless for information because he's made it equally easy for both town and scum to join it.
Since either SB is nontown or he's town but playing in a way that hurts the town, his lynch has positive expected value. It's that simple.
I still believe SB needs to fully disclose his role though, rather than vaguely hint at things.
@Az, yeah, I'm quite fine with my claim and the result of it. I'm really glad that this issue didn't blow up into a mislynch. I'll admit I was really worried about my claim after you claimed first, but I think we've addressed the issue fine. I've only done standard-ish games before, where LAL is pretty much a hard and fast rule, and I wanted to make very sure that my claim was not creating an unnecessary conflict. Seems like weird things like this are not so uncommon in these specialty games.
In 239, seems like Jobie is really catching Grak in a big renig. I'll wait for a response from Grak to throw my vote on, but it's looking like a much stronger case than SB right now. ATM both seem rather scummy to me.
MTGS stats (won/played)
As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
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Also, I've been puzzling a lot about this Big Brother role, and this is one of those cases where the flavor is obscenely obvious. Big Brother, as a character or individual personality, does not exist. The claim is entirely a function of a role or roles. I really, really think that Abbey's intention in this instance is to create a situation where a counter claim occurs (it will, and we'll get to that in a minute) so that he can create a conflict and make things interesting. I do believe this is called "railroading." He's trying to guide this game along a certain course of conflict, and those of us revolving around this Big Brother claim have to figure out how to work the system he's laid out to the advantage of the town.
I think there's more to it than that, even. We need to be extremely cautious and skeptical. I'd lay a wager that a minimum of one person claiming Big Brother at some point in this game is scum. Deciding which that is will be tricky.
Quote from Grakthis »
I am calling BS right now. There is no possible way Abbey made Hannibal Lector vanilla. Hannibal is too popular and too cultish in his popularity to be vanilla. The only way Abbey makes Lector vanilla is if there is a twist later in the game.
More flavor assumptions, Grak? I got two words for you: Doctor. Dre. Remember that? Remember how utterly wrong you were?
That said, it wouldn't surprise me if Lecter was a SK. It also wouldn't surprise me if he was town (in this game) and I'm not voting SB based on the name claim.
Quote from Azrael »
Lastly, if Stormblind is scum, I'll be shocked. He's posting far too much and far too aggressively for that. Not to mention the speed at which this wagon took off.
This surprises me, coming from you. Scum are aggressive all the time, moreso if they feel comfortable with their claim. I don't get how you're willing to write off his illogic, refusal to address points, and outright lies. And the speed of his wagon? Are you implying that scum has piled on already? Because there aren't all that many votes on SB, and if you think the scum comprises a significant number of them, then we've darn enar wrapped up the whole team, I should think.
Quote from stormblind »
I'm not giving up, HONESTLY, its that i know from a "cost-benefit" analysis, im probably the least painful of a lynch that would happen for the town, other then a scum lynch. I will fight to stay alive, im not giving up, but at the same time i expect to die because vanilla's on day one always do.
Huh. Didn't you already accuse me of saying "townies die day one, who cares?" And yet, here you are.
Quote from SB »
At this point, there's very little in way of reasoning for my dislike of Jsexton, there's that one minor tell, which grak blew up way bigger then he should have.
Interesting. I already addressed why that so-called tell is a complete misrep of what I said, but you ignored that, and continue to call it a scumtell. Why don't you want to debate me?
vote: StormBlind I didn't initially get a scum vibe from you, just bad logic. But the way you've handled yourself since then convinced me.
Almost forgot: While I disagree with some of the semantic nitpicking that Grak is doing, it's something he does as scum and as town. It's a total null tell for him. He's reading about neutral to me at the moment, which is pretty common day one.
@Grak: I'm saying your ego gets the better of you sometimes. You were clearly fishing to discover if I was counter-claiming doc or not in Online. No amount of semantics can get around that. This isn't about you going to find me 45 examples of you arguing semantics - don't care.
You're still horribly missing the point. I didn't even start out with an "accusation" per se, other than to ask JSexton why he blew up over StormBlind's comment yet didn't make any comment about yours which I felt was more applicable to "not scum hunting".
This, however, is worth noting:
Quote from Grakthis »
Order of events:
1) I say Stormbind is scummy.
2) Stormind says things that demonstrate bad play.
3) I say "that is bad play. Even if you're a townie, you're hurting us."
4) DYH accuses me of wanting to lynch bad townies.
Point 2 is not a reason to want someone lynched.
I like how you just made #3 say something remarkably different than what you actually said. No mention of oh, you know, pushing the idea you'd lynch SB just to get him out of the game - the entire basis of my question to JSexton.
Which follows in turn, that #4 is not what I'm "accusing" you of. I "accused" you of putting the idea out there it's acceptable to lynch someone because they're 'disruptive', which isn't the same as "scum hunting".
Quote from Grakthis »
Word usage is significant. There is a massive difference between "Grak wants to lynch a disruptive townie" and "Grak wants to lynch a player who is either scum or a disruptive townie." MASSIVE difference.
Perhaps you should try saying what you mean next time, eh?
Quote from Grakthis »
If not, I will happily lynch you just to get you out of the game. Seriously. A distruptive townie is everybit as bad as scum. Either play mafia, or ask to be replaced.
You can't honestly read that and tell me that it means what you're implying above. "A disruptive townie is everybit as bad as scum" equates the two, and makes it immaterial which he is (town or scum).
Lastly, I notice you haven't bothered responding to this:
Quote from Azrael »
If that had been what you were doing, sure. But the way you phrased it, that was NOT the idea that was originally carried in your post. The original idea was: "Stormblind bad, isn't helping, ergo: ok to lynch".
The idea that as a townie, he was of lesser worth, and therefore not as vital to keep alive, was not a subtext of the original post. It was a revision you tacked on, afterwards, and it seems as though you're defending your current position either out of stubborn pride, or in an attempt to cover up a tell. Which is it?
At the moment, SB is definitely the highest priority for the town, but I agree with DYH that Grak could be a valid line of inquiry. The best that could be said for him that it was what he was actually thinking along those lines at the time, and that his argument came out poorly phrased. But even then, he should never have attempted to play it off as what he actually said, which the record plainly shows to be deceptive.
Why is that? Think you can handle me or Jobie, but Azrael's a bit out of your league? Or did he just hit the nail on the head?
You're simply being dodgy now.
@JSex: You attributed a quote to Azrael that actually came from me. (the one about the speed of SB's wagon, etc.)
I think there's more to it than that, even. We need to be extremely cautious and skeptical. I'd lay a wager that a minimum of one person claiming Big Brother at some point in this game is scum. Deciding which that is will be tricky.
I'm not entirely positive. I'll certainly acknowledge that it's quite possible, but this type of gambit seems, from a design perspective, to be designed to create conflict. Crafting a situation where multiple people are likely to claim the same role seems likely to create a degree of confusion and argument. I'm actually really proud of the way we dealt with the situation. I'm inclined to believe that Az is town as well, as creating a role conflict between a scum and a townie first day would almost be too good for the town. As long as the town isn't at lylo, every either-you-or-me-are-scum conflict is entirely upside, as even if the townie gets lynched, it's a free scum lynch the next day. I don't think that Abbey would create a situation that would be that advantageous for the town on the first day. Deliberately provoking a scum/townie conflict on the first day would seem like an irresponsible scenario, certainly favoring the town. I would certainly be more suspicious of other people claiming Big Brother down the road, though, so I'll agree with you on that part.
That being said, I have no special knowledge regarding Azrael's particular role and whether it is pro- or anti-town, but the speculation above leads me to believe that it is probably pro-town. It is, however, purely speculation, and the whole Big Brother situation is very open to interpretation. I have only my very small piece of the puzzle to consider and the hints dropped by Az, and it's actually very difficult to discuss my piece without violating my role and incurring certain penalties.
Because this particular part of the puzzle involves me in this way, I'm curious what thread this Sparticus incident occurred in. I'd like to do some reading to more fully understand what has been done along these lines before to maybe get some insight into the situation. If someone could put up a link, I'd greatly appreciate it.
MTGS stats (won/played)
As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
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This surprises me, coming from you. Scum are aggressive all the time, moreso if they feel comfortable with their claim. I don't get how you're willing to write off his illogic, refusal to address points, and outright lies. And the speed of his wagon? Are you implying that scum has piled on already? Because there aren't all that many votes on SB, and if you think the scum comprises a significant number of them, then we've darn enar wrapped up the whole team, I should think.
Yeah, but SB isn't. Historically, he lurks in the shadows when he's scum. I just don't like the way this whole case came about. You list him third on a scum list, he gives a flame-ridden response with a questionable reason to vote, and then Grak sinks in with teeth bared and a bunch of people randomly pile on.
Illogical arguments are not necessarily the hallmarks of scum, however, I'd like to be directed to where he outright lied and refused to answer points, because I don't recall seeing either. He's got a couple point-by-point responses that I remember off the top of my head.
Cubus, you actually have a very good breakdown of the argument, IMO. As for "regardless of alignment", yes the inference there is "town or scum", but was obviously not meant to take into account a verified townie. Considering the conversation revolved around SB, I though that would be obvious, but touche - I should say exactly what I mean, too.
I can also see your point of disagreeing with me that what Grak was doing was not scum hunting. He did present a vote on him before making that statement, but the implication I get is that he'd be content removing SB because of his playstyle and be okay with that however he turned up. He was just a "disruption" anyway.
In looking back, FB also said something similar to this, too. Did I miss a memo where it suddenly became acceptable to think that if we lynch a townie day one it's okay because they weren't helping anyhow?
StormBlind: I'd still like an answer to this question. If you claim to be a vanilla townie, why did you make that statement in the first place? It implies you're either neutral or a role that has a good reason to keep a low profile, but vanilla townie is none of those two.
For utter Clarification, my pm states that due to my Current jailing by the FBI, the only thing i can do at the moment is state my opinions via the FBI.
That, due To my jailing, i am vanilla.
---------------------
Eh, i have 2 play styles, i either play outspokenly, or i sit back and don't do anything. I appear to be outspoken here. And my comment was referring more to Vigs/Cop's who can get their will done regardless of townie stubbornness, and as such are more independent. This was to counter the point grak made, where, if you're a vig, you dont really need to convince anyone about anything, you just gotta fire the gun.
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[19:59] greymon90210: Hey StormBlind how tall are you? "I'm six money *****, don't forget it"
"The Critics always said that we'd only have a black president when pigs flu"...
EBWODP: And also, i would argue that vanilla have a REALLY good reason to stay low profile, since 90% of the time, without cop verification, they're gunna die since vanilla is such a fertile scum hiding spot. But, from there you enter WIFOM and semantics soo ill leave it at that.
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[19:59] greymon90210: Hey StormBlind how tall are you? "I'm six money *****, don't forget it"
"The Critics always said that we'd only have a black president when pigs flu"...
In looking back, FB also said something similar to this, too. Did I miss a memo where it suddenly became acceptable to think that if we lynch a townie day one it's okay because they weren't helping anyhow?
Maybe you missed the point? Right now, SB is *at best* a harmful townie - not unhelpful, harmful. When you consider the probability that he's scum with that, then it makes for a positive lynch. We're not doing ourselves any favors by letting him live if he's going to continue playing the way he is.
Note that I'm not necessarily saying we need to lynch SB right now. We still have a lot of time for the day, and if someone comes up as a more likely scum, then I am in favor lynching that person. But SB has already earned himself candidacy for today's default lynch, since it has positive expected value.
Unless you have particular reason to believe that SB is town?
I guess I'm just not seeing the major problem with StormBlind's "play", here. What exactly makes that harmful? Maybe that's what I'm missing here, because aside from copping a bit of an attitude (of which others are guilty of as well), I don't know how that makes him less valuable than anyone else.
No, I don't have any particular reason other than what's posted in this thread and my personal experiences with him to believe that StormBlind is town.
EBWODP: Cause, without a Night 0, and so forth, i highly doubt anyone has information on me except via role information (i.e. The FBI). So... that seems a bit fishy to me...
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[19:59] greymon90210: Hey StormBlind how tall are you? "I'm six money *****, don't forget it"
"The Critics always said that we'd only have a black president when pigs flu"...
At first I didn't really see what was *that* bad about SB's play, but I agree it's markedly different from another game I played with him. he was town then, and his behavior seems off.
Unvote (if voting), vote SB
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Okay, I'm going to be doing some research and sorting through some theories. Meanwhile, can we get an official vote count, Abbey? I'd like to see exactly who is voting whom at the moment.
DYH: If you're a vanilla townie, it's not in the town's best interest for you to be playing in a manner that will almost guarantee an easy wagon to form on you. And certain things SB has said has suggested that he's been playing this way intentionally. If you think that's not harmful to the town, then I guess we just have some different philosophies about this game.
Yeah, but SB isn't. Historically, he lurks in the shadows when he's scum. I just don't like the way this whole case came about. You list him third on a scum list, he gives a flame-ridden response with a questionable reason to vote, and then Grak sinks in with teeth bared and a bunch of people randomly pile on.
Okay. I'd argue that if his behavior is that dramatically different when scum, then he'd be well-advised to change up his playstyle. Maybe that's already happening.
Quote from DYH »
Illogical arguments are not necessarily the hallmarks of scum, however, I'd like to be directed to where he outright lied and refused to answer points, because I don't recall seeing either. He's got a couple point-by-point responses that I remember off the top of my head.
He's ignored every post I made since voting me. Things he lied about: He claimed that I said I didn't care if townies got lynched. He claimed that he's posted as much or more ITT than I have. I pointed out both of those, and he blew right past them.
I am not feeling the case against Grak at all. I think that part of it is fuelled by some players not liking his aggressive paying styles. Which is ironic since that is one of the major points being made against him, that he does not like SB playing style.
I can also see your point of disagreeing with me that what Grak was doing was not scum hunting. He did present a vote on him before making that statement, but the implication I get is that he'd be content removing SB because of his playstyle and be okay with that however he turned up. He was just a "disruption" anyway.
So, are we going to lynch him based on an implication that he would be content to lynch SB because of his playing style and be ok with however he turned up? This is Day 1, how is that scummy? It’s not like he said that he would be ok with lynching a known townie just because he did not like his playing style. We stand to learn a fair amount from a SB lynch, as much or more then most any other player in the game.
As for the charge that Grak is playing differently then he has in other games, Again, I say so what? There are many player who do this deliberately, myself included, in order to not be able to be profiled easily as either town or mafia.
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Alright, after reading some points, I am guilty of Hyperbole.
Let me make my actual opinions clear, and then people can decide whatever they want based on what they think I said.
1) Lynching scum is by far and away the most important thing
2) Lynching someone you BELEIVE to be a townie just because they are doing somethign detramental is a terrible strategy (you can see my stance on this from day 1 of Matrix mafia when peopel dsicussing lynching the masons due to their drawbacks)
3) Lynching someone you believe to be scum who is ALSO doing something detrimental is a double bonus. It's the cake + icing.
I do not consider playing badly AS BAD as being scum. I do consider someone playing badly to be as DISRUPTIVE as scum who are actively lying to the town.
But let me ask the following: when am I more likely to carefully choose my words so that they say exactly what I mean? When I am a townie or when I am scum?
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But let me ask the following: when am I more likely to carefully choose my words so that they say exactly what I mean? When I am a townie or when I am scum?
Weak. Very, very weak.
Suspicion stands, but until I reevaluate, SB is on a higher level for me. DYH, I might be persuaded later once I give this more thought; right now my greater suspicion of SB is based on his claim being much weaker, but we don't have a point of comparison for Grak, yet.
Ask and you shall receive: Vote Count
~Tilde~: Niv, DragonDart
Grakthis: DYH, Jobie
Azrael: ~Tilde~
cp: ZasZ
~Tilde~: Pod
ZasZ: Kraj
Stormblind: Grakthis, fadeblue, cp, WoD, jerubbaal, Vampyr, Azrael, JSexton, charm_master
Pod: Cyan, Niv
JSexton: Stormblind
Grakthis: DYH, Jobie, Cyan
Not Voting:
It apears Niv is voting both ~ and pod. Niv should be voting pod, However, Unvote due to the lak of real basis to my vote
I find Graks recent comentst scummy, but not voteworhty. Still not seing the scum in SB, and IU think his wagon reaks of opertunisim. I might get around to a game reread if i have time, outher wise i am foloing much more closley again ;-)
I haven’t had as much time to dedicate to mafia over the weekend as I would have liked, and the time I had was spent just reading what was said and not being able to contribute much (not a bad thing, more talk=better chance for a town win).
I’m sorry.
Anyway here’s my opinion on the key events that have transpired.
Wagon on Stormblind:
I think the wagon is merited, the first (real) wagon day one is usually due to play style reads or small gut feelings so the wagon is in no way bad. What scares me is the speed of the growth of the wagon with little to no reasoning to back it up. Not much more than a ‘sounds good with me vote’. With the giant red-herring the soft-claim has caused reasons behind votes would be nice.
DYH-Grak confrontation.
In my opinion Grak was scum hunting and was being zealous about it. DYH became suspicious due to his ‘you are scum, and disruptive so VOTE’ argument and the argument issued. (Thanks Cubus for helping us see what was gong on better). Personally I get townie reads from both.
Stormblind claims:
To be Hannible that’s in jail and thus currently vanilla. Question: Where you thrown in jail duirng the course of the game (via PM) or were you jailed in your role pm?
Just wondering as Azreal seems to have tried to activate something by claiming Big Brother and Zas has already been suspected of activating an ability on the sly. If everyone's a bad guy than jailing someone could easily be an ability.
I did some research on the claims so far, though I have not found any particular reason to think there's a connection between any of them, unfortunately. I'll go ahead and put this out there for anyone who thinks they can derive useful info from it.
Cyan - The White Witch (either from The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe or from The Magician's Nephew) by C.S. Lewis in either 1950 or 1955 - defeated and killed
Azrael, jerubbaal, Vampyr - Big Brother (most likely from 1984) by George Orwell in 1949 - not defeated
carrion pigeons - Magua, from The Last of the Mohicans by James Fenimore Cooper in 1826 - defeated and killed
charm master - The Raven from The Raven (one assumes) by Edgar Allan Poe in 1845 - not defeated
Dragon Dart - Circe, from The Odyssey by Homer between 600-800BC, fully translated into English for the first time, 1903 - defeated
StormBlind - Hannibal Lecter, from Red Dragon by Thomas Harris in 1981 - defeated?
HAWEYE7 - Newt Hoenikker, from Cat's Cradle (one of the few with no other possibilities) by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. in 1963 - is he a villain? I have not read this.
Wuffles II - Satan, from Paradise Lost by John Milton in 1667 - defeated, but he's actually the protagonist
Wrath of Dog - Old Man of the Sea (I am not able to find reference to a specific book called "The Seven Voyages of Sinbad the Sailor") - defeated
Kraj - IT from A Wrinkle in Time by Madeleine L'Engle in 1962 - defeated
Niv - Winston Niles Rumfoord from The Sirens of Titan by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. in 1959 - not the antagonist, so hard to say that he was defeated or not
Jobie - Gérard de Villefort from The Count of Monte Cristo by Alexander Dumas in 1844 - defeated and killed, but only seems to be the antagonist at the beginning of the novel
Some notes on these claims:
Kurt Vonnegut is the only author repeated among claims.
Circe and The Old Man of the Sea are the only characters without claim to a specific book written in the past two centuries.
With the possible (but unlikely) exception of the White Witch if she's from the later book, Satan is the only character derived from an earlier known character with the same name.
Only Magua, Winston Rumfoord and Newt Hoenikker can be said not to have been repeated by other authors in other books. The Sirens of Titan and Paradise Lost are the only books for which I can find no corresponding movie.
Anyway, I don't see the Grak wagon going much of anywhere. Grak has given his views on the subject of unhelpful townies before, and his opinion clearly hasn't changed much. fade's reaction to SB seems much more out of character, but again, I can't actually fault him for it.
I am still all for this wagon, as I think the person whose response to it is most suspect is SB's himself.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Well, Newt Hoenikker is actually not a villain; you could even characterize him as an innocent victim, in a way. Also, I don't think Rumfoord in The Sirens of Titan is a villain either (not sure since I haven't actually read it). Vonnegut never really had "villains" in any of his novels (at least not the ones I've read).
Well, Rumfoord was certainly guilty of bahavior that made life for the protagonist very unpleasant. Whether or not that makes him a villain, I don't know.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
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If he truly is the SK, that would explain the speed factor. Possibly the change in playstyle as well.
PPE: Just got a reply to my PM from Abbey. My claim was sufficient to do whatever it does. Unfortunately, I was not given a clear explanation what that is, only a substantial amount of flavor that could be interpreted in any number of ways.
At any rate, maintaining my claim for the remainder of the game should be enough to maintain whatever was done, so I needn't repeat or revise on subsequent days as far as I'm aware.
Already covering your bases for if Stormblind gets lynched and turns up town?
Also, this caught my eye:
You seem pretty confident that SB's coming up town yet want to lynch him.
Furthermore, this last piece of logic is absolutely horrible. Oh, well even if we lynch non-participating townies at least that will scare the lurker scum into posting - that'll do it! You know not all scum lurk, right? And not everyone who lurks is scum. Swiss cheese logic.
If I had two votes, I'd put my other one back on you. I need to resolve the Grak issue first.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Accidentally cut this out from my post to ZasZ:
We lynch scummy play, not poor play. Lynches aren't used to "teach people a lesson" on how to play, they should be used to find scum.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
I'm not giving up, HONESTLY, its that i know from a "cost-benefit" analysis, im probably the least painful of a lynch that would happen for the town, other then a scum lynch. I will fight to stay alive, im not giving up, but at the same time i expect to die because vanilla's on day one always do.
I was joking around since everyone kept yelling at me that analysis and reasoning are good.
Actually, if you'll check my record, i tend to not make cases because when i tend to believe someones scummy, its for stupid minor things that ARENT really scum tells. But at the same time, ask most mods whose games ive been in and my gut reactions do well. I tend to trust my gut because... well... suffice to say, i love Vig roles. At this point, there's very little in way of reasoning for my dislike of Jsexton, there's that one minor tell, which grak blew up way bigger then he should have. And if you look at any other game ive played in with you, you'll notice i tend to vote for someone i find scummy, but continue to contribute to the remainder of the discussions and vote along town wishes when the need arises. Votes are the primary way to analyze someone, and i like it to be known precisely where my suspicions lie. I honestly don't have any reason to believe i am anything BUT vanilla except for the way that my PM is worded. It seems off for some reason, and i cant place my finger on it. That's another reason im moderately fine with a Stormblind lynch, this is a specialty, and im a vanilla. Meaning, there's probably something else going on that im not aware of with my role.
Funny, I never said I'd lynch a townie with horrible behavior.
I also never said I'd lynch someone regardless of alignment.
So, since I never said either of those two things....
Please, find me the quote where i said I'd lynch a townie with horrible behavior. Because I can show you one where I directly say the opposite.
Ah, so what you're saying is... after I was dead, and I no longer had anything to hide, you saw me tell you that arguing semantics is not a scum tell.
And yet, your'e still accusing me of it? So you're saying that AFTER THE GAME i was still lying? So you're actually attacking me PERSONALLY now? You're saying that after the game was over, and I had no incentive to lie to anyone, I was still lying to Bugman? Is that what you're saying?
How many non-mafia threads do I have to find you where I argued semantics before you shut up? Seriously. Give me a number and I will find you that many. I highly doubt you will name a number that is larger than I can find quickly and easily.
Word usage is significant. There is a massive difference between "Grak wants to lynch a disruptive townie" and "Grak wants to lynch a player who is either scum or a disruptive townie." MASSIVE difference.
More misleading comments. You pretend the only thing I was discussing was the possibility of mislynching a disruptive townie. You completely ignore where I was pushing the lynch on a SCUMMY PLAYER.
Me: "We should lynch X because he's scummy, plus, there's the bonus that if he's not, he's not a useful townie."
DYH: "Stop trying to lynch townies just because they are not useful."
Me: "Right... did you miss the whole first half of that sentance or are you ignoring it intentionally?"
if you want to rewind and decide EXACTLY what it is you're accusing me of, we can start this discussion over.
Really? Because wagons on scum never take off quickly? Amazing how selective your memory is.... because in the very game you are quoting, Marles was scum and his bandwagon took off like a rocket.
Funny.... you remember everything else about Online mafia. How come you don't remember that?
Sorry for the tripple post, but this needs to be tacked onto the end.
this is my first post regarding stormbind. MY INTITIAL VOTE FOR HIM AND ACCUSATION CAME LONG BEFORE I SAID A WORD ABOUT HIM BEING A BAD TOWNIE.
Order of events:
1) I say Stormbind is scummy.
2) Stormind says things that demonstrate bad play.
3) I say "that is bad play. Even if you're a townie, you're hurting us."
4) DYH accuses me of wanting to lynch bad townies.
Does anyone else see the problem with the accusation DYH is making? I voted for Stormbind long before any conversation about Stormbind being a bad townie become relevant.
I read this as saying you want to lynch someone whether they're a townie or not.
I don't give a **** if you voted him before you made this statement. The statement is scummy either way.
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Vote Grakthis. In Matrix Mafia, which just finished, Grakthis was town. His behavior in that game was *markedly* different than in this game. Draw your own conclusions. I know what mine is.
I've read through what he said, and he's basically the same thing I am - StormBlind has not been playing in a pro-town manner, and thus is a good candidate for a lynch. Either he is scum (non-town) or he is town; if he is town, then he is actively hurting the town by doing the scum's job for them, which is distracting the town and creating an easy wagon on a townie. I gave him the benefit of the doubt early on, but I changed my mind after the exchange with jerubbaal.
SB is experienced enough that he should know that vanilla townies shouldn't be trying to draw wagons and then basically giving up. He *says* he's not giving up, but he's not really showing it. As Grak has said, he's basically stated that he's not going to play Mafia - he attacks someone for being "confrontational," and he dismisses accusations against him by claiming it's just his playstyle. Which, actually, I believe is false - I've never seen SB play this way either as town or scum in the past (though I've never seen him play SK or vanilla town).
In addition, SB's claim and post #206 are both non-townish. 1) He says he's claiming to avoid wasting time, but indicates that he's hiding information with his "at current" clause. 2) His #206
does not suggest he's playing in the town's interest. If he were actually townie, he would not be resigning himself to being lynched, and he would know that his wagon is almost useless for information because he's made it equally easy for both town and scum to join it.
Since either SB is nontown or he's town but playing in a way that hurts the town, his lynch has positive expected value. It's that simple.
I still believe SB needs to fully disclose his role though, rather than vaguely hint at things.
In 239, seems like Jobie is really catching Grak in a big renig. I'll wait for a response from Grak to throw my vote on, but it's looking like a much stronger case than SB right now. ATM both seem rather scummy to me.
MTGS stats (won/played)
As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
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I think there's more to it than that, even. We need to be extremely cautious and skeptical. I'd lay a wager that a minimum of one person claiming Big Brother at some point in this game is scum. Deciding which that is will be tricky.
More flavor assumptions, Grak? I got two words for you: Doctor. Dre. Remember that? Remember how utterly wrong you were?
That said, it wouldn't surprise me if Lecter was a SK. It also wouldn't surprise me if he was town (in this game) and I'm not voting SB based on the name claim.
This surprises me, coming from you. Scum are aggressive all the time, moreso if they feel comfortable with their claim. I don't get how you're willing to write off his illogic, refusal to address points, and outright lies. And the speed of his wagon? Are you implying that scum has piled on already? Because there aren't all that many votes on SB, and if you think the scum comprises a significant number of them, then we've darn enar wrapped up the whole team, I should think.
Huh. Didn't you already accuse me of saying "townies die day one, who cares?" And yet, here you are.
Interesting. I already addressed why that so-called tell is a complete misrep of what I said, but you ignored that, and continue to call it a scumtell. Why don't you want to debate me?
vote: StormBlind I didn't initially get a scum vibe from you, just bad logic. But the way you've handled yourself since then convinced me.
You're still horribly missing the point. I didn't even start out with an "accusation" per se, other than to ask JSexton why he blew up over StormBlind's comment yet didn't make any comment about yours which I felt was more applicable to "not scum hunting".
This, however, is worth noting:
Point 2 is not a reason to want someone lynched.
I like how you just made #3 say something remarkably different than what you actually said. No mention of oh, you know, pushing the idea you'd lynch SB just to get him out of the game - the entire basis of my question to JSexton.
Which follows in turn, that #4 is not what I'm "accusing" you of. I "accused" you of putting the idea out there it's acceptable to lynch someone because they're 'disruptive', which isn't the same as "scum hunting".
Perhaps you should try saying what you mean next time, eh?
You can't honestly read that and tell me that it means what you're implying above. "A disruptive townie is everybit as bad as scum" equates the two, and makes it immaterial which he is (town or scum).
Lastly, I notice you haven't bothered responding to this:
Why is that? Think you can handle me or Jobie, but Azrael's a bit out of your league? Or did he just hit the nail on the head?
You're simply being dodgy now.
@JSex: You attributed a quote to Azrael that actually came from me. (the one about the speed of SB's wagon, etc.)
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Hell. So I did. Well, it applies to you just as much.
I'm not entirely positive. I'll certainly acknowledge that it's quite possible, but this type of gambit seems, from a design perspective, to be designed to create conflict. Crafting a situation where multiple people are likely to claim the same role seems likely to create a degree of confusion and argument. I'm actually really proud of the way we dealt with the situation. I'm inclined to believe that Az is town as well, as creating a role conflict between a scum and a townie first day would almost be too good for the town. As long as the town isn't at lylo, every either-you-or-me-are-scum conflict is entirely upside, as even if the townie gets lynched, it's a free scum lynch the next day. I don't think that Abbey would create a situation that would be that advantageous for the town on the first day. Deliberately provoking a scum/townie conflict on the first day would seem like an irresponsible scenario, certainly favoring the town. I would certainly be more suspicious of other people claiming Big Brother down the road, though, so I'll agree with you on that part.
That being said, I have no special knowledge regarding Azrael's particular role and whether it is pro- or anti-town, but the speculation above leads me to believe that it is probably pro-town. It is, however, purely speculation, and the whole Big Brother situation is very open to interpretation. I have only my very small piece of the puzzle to consider and the hints dropped by Az, and it's actually very difficult to discuss my piece without violating my role and incurring certain penalties.
Because this particular part of the puzzle involves me in this way, I'm curious what thread this Sparticus incident occurred in. I'd like to do some reading to more fully understand what has been done along these lines before to maybe get some insight into the situation. If someone could put up a link, I'd greatly appreciate it.
MTGS stats (won/played)
As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
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Yeah, but SB isn't. Historically, he lurks in the shadows when he's scum. I just don't like the way this whole case came about. You list him third on a scum list, he gives a flame-ridden response with a questionable reason to vote, and then Grak sinks in with teeth bared and a bunch of people randomly pile on.
Illogical arguments are not necessarily the hallmarks of scum, however, I'd like to be directed to where he outright lied and refused to answer points, because I don't recall seeing either. He's got a couple point-by-point responses that I remember off the top of my head.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
I can also see your point of disagreeing with me that what Grak was doing was not scum hunting. He did present a vote on him before making that statement, but the implication I get is that he'd be content removing SB because of his playstyle and be okay with that however he turned up. He was just a "disruption" anyway.
In looking back, FB also said something similar to this, too. Did I miss a memo where it suddenly became acceptable to think that if we lynch a townie day one it's okay because they weren't helping anyhow?
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
For utter Clarification, my pm states that due to my Current jailing by the FBI, the only thing i can do at the moment is state my opinions via the FBI.
That, due To my jailing, i am vanilla.
---------------------
Eh, i have 2 play styles, i either play outspokenly, or i sit back and don't do anything. I appear to be outspoken here. And my comment was referring more to Vigs/Cop's who can get their will done regardless of townie stubbornness, and as such are more independent. This was to counter the point grak made, where, if you're a vig, you dont really need to convince anyone about anything, you just gotta fire the gun.
Maybe you missed the point? Right now, SB is *at best* a harmful townie - not unhelpful, harmful. When you consider the probability that he's scum with that, then it makes for a positive lynch. We're not doing ourselves any favors by letting him live if he's going to continue playing the way he is.
Note that I'm not necessarily saying we need to lynch SB right now. We still have a lot of time for the day, and if someone comes up as a more likely scum, then I am in favor lynching that person. But SB has already earned himself candidacy for today's default lynch, since it has positive expected value.
Unless you have particular reason to believe that SB is town?
No, I don't have any particular reason other than what's posted in this thread and my personal experiences with him to believe that StormBlind is town.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Yes, I'm trying to fish out DYH's cop investigation during the non-existent Night 0.
By they way, exactly which literary source is your role from?
Unvote (if voting), vote SB
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DYH: If you're a vanilla townie, it's not in the town's best interest for you to be playing in a manner that will almost guarantee an easy wagon to form on you. And certain things SB has said has suggested that he's been playing this way intentionally. If you think that's not harmful to the town, then I guess we just have some different philosophies about this game.
Okay. I'd argue that if his behavior is that dramatically different when scum, then he'd be well-advised to change up his playstyle. Maybe that's already happening.
He's ignored every post I made since voting me. Things he lied about: He claimed that I said I didn't care if townies got lynched. He claimed that he's posted as much or more ITT than I have. I pointed out both of those, and he blew right past them.
@jerubbaal: The Spartacus incident happened here: http://www.misetings.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13323
Vote Count
~Tilde~: Niv, DragonDart
Grakthis: DYH, Jobie
Azrael: ~Tilde~
cp: ZasZ
~Tilde~: Pod
ZasZ: Kraj
Stormblind: Grakthis, fadeblue, cp, WoD, jerubbaal, Vampyr, Azrael, JSexton, charm_master
Pod: Cyan, Niv
JSexton: Stormblind
Grakthis: DYH, Jobie, Cyan
Not Voting:
Post Count
Cyan 23
JSexton 22
Grakthis 21
StormBlind 20
fadeblue 18
DYH 17
carrion pigeons 13
Cubus 14
Pod 11
Azrael 10
Hawkeye7 9
charm master 9
ZasZ234 8
Vampyr 7
~Tilde~ 7
Wuffles II 6
Jobie 6
jerubbaal 6
Niv 4
DragonDart 4
Kraj 4
Wrath of Dog 4
AbbeyGargoyle 3
GiftsTrix 3
So, are we going to lynch him based on an implication that he would be content to lynch SB because of his playing style and be ok with however he turned up? This is Day 1, how is that scummy? It’s not like he said that he would be ok with lynching a known townie just because he did not like his playing style. We stand to learn a fair amount from a SB lynch, as much or more then most any other player in the game.
As for the charge that Grak is playing differently then he has in other games, Again, I say so what? There are many player who do this deliberately, myself included, in order to not be able to be profiled easily as either town or mafia.
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Content wise yes Nice mis-representation.
Meh. That line didn't come through as clearly as it should.
My intent is clear from my behavior. I voted for him before the topic ever came up and I voted for him clearly on the basis of his scummy behavior.
Let me ask you this: How is it scummy for me to say that, given that it was not the basis for my vote?
A scummy statement is a scummy statement no matter if it was used to base your vote on or not.
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Let me make my actual opinions clear, and then people can decide whatever they want based on what they think I said.
1) Lynching scum is by far and away the most important thing
2) Lynching someone you BELEIVE to be a townie just because they are doing somethign detramental is a terrible strategy (you can see my stance on this from day 1 of Matrix mafia when peopel dsicussing lynching the masons due to their drawbacks)
3) Lynching someone you believe to be scum who is ALSO doing something detrimental is a double bonus. It's the cake + icing.
I do not consider playing badly AS BAD as being scum. I do consider someone playing badly to be as DISRUPTIVE as scum who are actively lying to the town.
But let me ask the following: when am I more likely to carefully choose my words so that they say exactly what I mean? When I am a townie or when I am scum?
But that accusation is that my statement was being used to justify my vote. I.E. I was not "scumhunting."
Clearly, I was. I provided the reasons for my vote on SB.
So is it more likely that I said something stupid because I am a stupid person, or that I used poor wording that is being misinterpreted?
I made it back in this post.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2338549&postcount=191
Thanks.
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Like I said before: Link to it.
I'm still happier going after StormBlind, to be honest.
Weak. Very, very weak.
Suspicion stands, but until I reevaluate, SB is on a higher level for me. DYH, I might be persuaded later once I give this more thought; right now my greater suspicion of SB is based on his claim being much weaker, but we don't have a point of comparison for Grak, yet.
It apears Niv is voting both ~ and pod. Niv should be voting pod, However, Unvote due to the lak of real basis to my vote
I find Graks recent comentst scummy, but not voteworhty. Still not seing the scum in SB, and IU think his wagon reaks of opertunisim. I might get around to a game reread if i have time, outher wise i am foloing much more closley again ;-)
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~Tilde~: DragonDart
Azrael: ~Tilde~
cp: ZasZ
~Tilde~: Pod
ZasZ: Kraj
Stormblind: Grakthis, fadeblue, cp, WoD, jerubbaal, Vampyr, Azrael, JSexton, charm_master, Hawkeye7
JSexton: Stormblind
Grakthis: DYH, Jobie, Cyan
Not Voting: Wuffles_II, Niv, GiftsTrix, Cubus
Post Count
Grakthis 24
Cyan 23
JSexton 23
StormBlind 21
fadeblue 18
DYH 17
Cubus 14
carrion pigeons 13
Pod 11
Azrael 11
Hawkeye7 11
charm master 9
ZasZ234 8
Vampyr 7
~Tilde~ 7
Jobie 7
Wuffles II 6
jerubbaal 6
Wrath of Dog 5
Niv 4
DragonDart 4
Kraj 4
AbbeyGargoyle 4
GiftsTrix 3
It is now 21 to lynch. If you wish to join the spectators' forum, PM your email address and I will add you
I’m sorry.
Anyway here’s my opinion on the key events that have transpired.
Wagon on Stormblind:
I think the wagon is merited, the first (real) wagon day one is usually due to play style reads or small gut feelings so the wagon is in no way bad. What scares me is the speed of the growth of the wagon with little to no reasoning to back it up. Not much more than a ‘sounds good with me vote’. With the giant red-herring the soft-claim has caused reasons behind votes would be nice.
DYH-Grak confrontation.
In my opinion Grak was scum hunting and was being zealous about it. DYH became suspicious due to his ‘you are scum, and disruptive so VOTE’ argument and the argument issued. (Thanks Cubus for helping us see what was gong on better). Personally I get townie reads from both.
Stormblind claims:
To be Hannible that’s in jail and thus currently vanilla. Question: Where you thrown in jail duirng the course of the game (via PM) or were you jailed in your role pm?
Sigil: an MMORPCCG ">Mexus: An MMORPCCG
Sigil: an MMORPCCG ">Mexus: An MMORPCCG
I will not explain the penalties at this stage as knowing will not affect the town at all.
Cyan - The White Witch (either from The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe or from The Magician's Nephew) by C.S. Lewis in either 1950 or 1955 - defeated and killed
Azrael, jerubbaal, Vampyr - Big Brother (most likely from 1984) by George Orwell in 1949 - not defeated
carrion pigeons - Magua, from The Last of the Mohicans by James Fenimore Cooper in 1826 - defeated and killed
charm master - The Raven from The Raven (one assumes) by Edgar Allan Poe in 1845 - not defeated
Dragon Dart - Circe, from The Odyssey by Homer between 600-800BC, fully translated into English for the first time, 1903 - defeated
StormBlind - Hannibal Lecter, from Red Dragon by Thomas Harris in 1981 - defeated?
HAWEYE7 - Newt Hoenikker, from Cat's Cradle (one of the few with no other possibilities) by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. in 1963 - is he a villain? I have not read this.
Wuffles II - Satan, from Paradise Lost by John Milton in 1667 - defeated, but he's actually the protagonist
Wrath of Dog - Old Man of the Sea (I am not able to find reference to a specific book called "The Seven Voyages of Sinbad the Sailor") - defeated
Kraj - IT from A Wrinkle in Time by Madeleine L'Engle in 1962 - defeated
Niv - Winston Niles Rumfoord from The Sirens of Titan by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. in 1959 - not the antagonist, so hard to say that he was defeated or not
Jobie - Gérard de Villefort from The Count of Monte Cristo by Alexander Dumas in 1844 - defeated and killed, but only seems to be the antagonist at the beginning of the novel
Some notes on these claims:
Kurt Vonnegut is the only author repeated among claims.
Circe and The Old Man of the Sea are the only characters without claim to a specific book written in the past two centuries.
With the possible (but unlikely) exception of the White Witch if she's from the later book, Satan is the only character derived from an earlier known character with the same name.
Only Magua, Winston Rumfoord and Newt Hoenikker can be said not to have been repeated by other authors in other books.
The Sirens of Titan and Paradise Lost are the only books for which I can find no corresponding movie.
Anyway, I don't see the Grak wagon going much of anywhere. Grak has given his views on the subject of unhelpful townies before, and his opinion clearly hasn't changed much. fade's reaction to SB seems much more out of character, but again, I can't actually fault him for it.
I am still all for this wagon, as I think the person whose response to it is most suspect is SB's himself.
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