These last couple points of discussion have been really good. I do, in general, consider those pushing for a claim here to be fairly townie, because it's generally a townie mistake, but it's still a mistake.
Except that if there is a good scum reason to want the soft claim, they can hide in a field of townies and speak up in favor without drawing attention to themself in particular. Don't be too quick to label the pro-softclaim folks as townie.
Also, I want to say that I highly, highly recommend lynching as early as possible today. The later in the day we lynch anyone, the less information the wagon will give us, since there will be fewer people on it.
We've got over a week before we even get close to no longer requiring a lynch. We have a reasonable amount of time.
In fact, I think we should consider the last day that requires a majority to lynch to be the actual deadline.
For the claim:
Cyan - The White Witch
Azrael - Big Brother
Vampyr - no claim yet, but really wants to claim.
carrion pigeons - Magua
charm master - The Raven
Dragon Dart - Circe
StormBlind - Hannibal Lecter
HAWEYE7 - Newt Hoenikker
Wuffles II - Satan
Wrath of Dog - Old Man of the Sea
Against Claim:
DYH 7
Grakthis
Cubus
ZasZ234
Pod
fade blue
Kraj
Jerubbaal
Unknown:
Niv
GiftsTrix
~Tilde~
Jobie
JSexton
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I don't think that DYH is necessarily opposed to the claim, he just wanted it to be more orderly. I'm pretty sure JSexton is opposed, though obviously he couldn't be bothered to come up with any real reasons for it. Not that anyone that's listed any opposition really could.
Actually, I take that back. Grakthis(echoed by fadeblue) had the most reasonable non-support response, in that we shouldn't do it unless there is a good reason to do so. Obviously I think that there is, and he/they might disagree, but that response was vastly more helpful than paragraphs of nonsense fearmongering.
Considering that everything you have 'put down' is 100% rubbish nonsense, I'm inclined to disagree with you.
Also, it's erronous to assume that soft-claiming is going to automatically have a noticeable, tangible benefit. How often does that happen? Virtually never. But in the games that I've seen where a soft-claimed was enacted, especially under abnormal circumstances, it has always benefited the town. So, I have precedent on my side, while you have theory. Good luck with that.
PFt. How about all of you naysayers guarantee that you'll actually be receptive to reason first, and then I'll put the time and effort into finding those games. Again, considering the timeframe here, I"m not going to waste the time it would take otherwise.
I don't think that DYH is necessarily opposed to the claim, he just wanted it to be more orderly. I'm pretty sure JSexton is opposed, though obviously he couldn't be bothered to come up with any real reasons for it. Not that anyone that's listed any opposition really could.
Actually, I take that back. Grakthis(echoed by fadeblue) had the most reasonable non-support response, in that we shouldn't do it unless there is a good reason to do so. Obviously I think that there is, and he/they might disagree, but that response was vastly more helpful than paragraphs of nonsense fearmongering.
True.
Against does have a negative connotation to it. I shall revist the list.
Updated list.
For the claim:
Cyan - The White Witch
Azrael - Big Brother
Vampyr - no claim yet, but really wants to claim.
carrion pigeons - Magua
charm master - The Raven
Dragon Dart - Circe
StormBlind - Hannibal Lecter
HAWEYE7 - Newt Hoenikker
Wuffles II - Satan
Wrath of Dog - Old Man of the Sea
Against Claim and/or simply not participating:
DYH 7
Grakthis
Cubus
ZasZ234
Pod
fade blue
Kraj
Jerubbaal
Unknown:
Niv
GiftsTrix
~Tilde~
Jobie
JSexton
For all those not participating, at the very least work with and use the information that others have provided you with. I'm sure that most of you will, but for those who are truely opposed to the claim don't let that position keep you from looking over the information to the best of your ability.
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Sure. Except that I think that you're just trying to drag things out and stall the inevitable. Why should I waste my time finding and explaining examples if you're just going to try to find a way to blow it off? Maybe in some other game. Not in this one. And I didn't ask you to 'agree to react in a certain way'. If you can't agree to be openminded, then I'm not wasting my time with you.
Hawkeye has been rather vigilant of everyone this game.. The Party approves.
Regarding a mass soft claim, I would not be opposed to it, but it should not be random like it has been. As it stands, all those who have claimed at this point have been, shall we say, exceedingly eager to do so. That does not reflect well on those who have, in my humble opinion.
I have reasonable reason to doubt Azrael's claim in particular, I'm not certain as to the why of it though. His response of:
Quote from Azrael »
"I have a vaguely worded incentive to say certain things"
makes me think that he has some ability linked to convincing people that his claim is true. Somehow I doubt that would be a beneficial ability... at least to everyone else.
A week is a reasonable amount of time? Apparently you've never played a game on here before, where we've been having month long day 1's for ages.
There is absolutely no reason why a day one should take a month. If a mod gives you a month, you've no incentive to speed up. When you have less time, I think you'll find that getting it done is perfectly reasonable.
Look, we all know that day one is a crapshoot. It'd be nice to lynch scum, but the odds are against it. The information and discussion around the various wagons are the important thing, and there's no reason why it can't be done in ~10 days instead of 30+. After a certain point, the extra posts are just noise, and diminishing returns kicks in.
As for you disagreeing with me, I couldn't care less. What have you contributed thus far? 'Soft-claims are bad!' Thanks for the insight.
You want to tangle with me? Good luck.
You've posted more, sure, but I'd argue that your contributions are detrimental to the town, due to your stubborness, poor logic, and steadfast ability to selectively ignore things you have no answer for.
The notion that someone would be forced to false-claim is patently absurd. If Az says he's Big Brother, then, he's Big Brother. Which means nothing at all.
It's a common role at MT, where Abbey does most of his playing.
Spartacus was a gimmick role that showed up in several games. Sometimes the player really was Spartacus, sometimes Spartacus was a fake claim that the player could use and gain some bonus from it.
Pod, what alternative tactic are you persuing or advocating in lieu of a soft claim?
For someone openly against the claim you seem to be using the information that it has provided extensively.
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I think this claim has been plenty valuable so far. So far, we've seen a few roles. None of which actually have to do with the 1001 Nights mythos. Additionally, most of the roles are what would typically be described as 'Bad Guys'. I think that both of these will prove to be vital pieces of information, and justify everyone else claiming.
Except now you've given the mafia that information as well.
Who benefits most from a list of names that are in the town? That's right, people fake claiming.
This is a logical fallacy. If anything, previous games on this site have shown that soft-claims work just fine. They have helped the town win plenty of times. Is there a risk of a Doc getting outed? Only if he is retarded and doesn't just claim something else. It's not like people won't believe him later if he has to say 'I am really the Doc but didn't want to out myself'. I mean honestly, this stuff is common sense.
an FYI to the entire town. If anyoen does this, I will push hard for their lynch. 9 times out of 10 only scum would pull that lie, and i've seen them try it MULTIPLE tmes.
"Oh wait, did I claim vanilla? I meant that I am the doc. That's why you saw me targeting someone last night."
Sure. Except that I think that you're just trying to drag things out and stall the inevitable. Why should I waste my time finding and explaining examples if you're just going to try to find a way to blow it off? Maybe in some other game. Not in this one. And I didn't ask you to 'agree to react in a certain way'. If you can't agree to be openminded, then I'm not wasting my time with you.
Cyan, I guarantee you that if you can give me a valid reason that shows that it's more likely to HELP us than HURT us to softclaim right now I'll give eithe rmy name or my book, whichever you prefer.
In the meantime, I see absolutly no benefit to this. And in fact, given Abbey's connections to MT and past roles there, I can see one role already that should have stayed hidden and is now exposed and it could be terrible for us.
an FYI to the entire town. If anyoen does this, I will push hard for their lynch. 9 times out of 10 only scum would pull that lie, and i've seen them try it MULTIPLE tmes.
"Oh wait, did I claim vanilla? I meant that I am the doc. That's why you saw me targeting someone last night."
While I don't agree with your position on this soft claim, I do agree with this statement. Usually, Any townie out and out lying about their role is just asking for major problems for themselves and the town down the road. There are other ways to avoid revealing sensitive information besides lying.
We are stictly talking about a name claim here. As such, I see little danger of this happening.
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Spartacus was a gimmick role that showed up in several games. Sometimes the player really was Spartacus, sometimes Spartacus was a fake claim that the player could use and gain some bonus from it.
Oh god...I don't even want to know what happens if someone tries to counterclaim that...spamfest galore?
Hawkeye: QFT. unless it's glaringly obvious, which I doubt in a game like this, name claims won't reveal all the power roles.
When Az is refering to Big Brother, is he talking about the reality show, or something totally different?
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an FYI to the entire town. If anyoen does this, I will push hard for their lynch. 9 times out of 10 only scum would pull that lie, and i've seen them try it MULTIPLE tmes.
"Oh wait, did I claim vanilla? I meant that I am the doc. That's why you saw me targeting someone last night."
You've posted more, sure, but I'd argue that your contributions are detrimental to the town, due to your stubborness, poor logic, and steadfast ability to selectively ignore things you have no answer for.
No offense to Cyan, but this is pretty much par for the course for him, J.
I felt Cyan made some decent points regarding Pod early on, but they seemed to ultimately be based on this point:
To me, Pod's statement only makes sense if he knows that such a pattern exists, and wants to discourage it being revealed.
And this seems weak to me. At best, Pod had come to the conclusion there was a pattern, which is not the same thing as "knowing". And if I may be so bold it is likely most of us were noticing the same pattern at that point. CP even posted so shortly after. And it's not as if a townie wouldn't have a good reason be hesitant about revealing role information.
Interestingly, after noting everyone's claim so far is scummy-sounding CP then votes CM, saying:
Also, I want to say that I highly, highly recommend lynching as early as possible today. The later in the day we lynch anyone, the less information the wagon will give us, since there will be fewer people on it.
So, we should mass claim because we are under a time constraint, and we should lynch as quickly as possible because we're under a time constraint. Are there any other things that are generally bad for the town we should do because we're under a time constraint?
Honestly, I see the reasoning behind these ideas but it really feels like an overreaction to an unusual game restraint.
This is a logical fallacy. If anything, previous games on this site have shown that soft-claims work just fine. They have helped the town win plenty of times.
PFt. How about all of you naysayers guarantee that you'll actually be receptive to reason first, and then I'll put the time and effort into finding those games. Again, considering the timeframe here, I"m not going to waste the time it would take otherwise.
I would also like to see these examples. I've not played in any games where there were mass claims early in the game, but I've been told on many occasions that they generally favor the scum. Some counter examples would be quite helpful.
Overall I think the mass claim has been handled poorly but I don't think any of the claims so far have demonstrated obvious role information, so I don't see a serious danger in participating at this point.
I am IT from A Wrinkle in Time.
As far as who to vote for, Cyan's behavior is a non-tell as far as I'm concerned. And though I don't agree with all Cyan's reasons for voting him, I think ZasZ was overly aggressive with his vote on CP and his reaction to Azrael, and was overly defensive when pressured.
Vote: ZasZ234
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The Golden Rule of forums: If you're going to be rude, be right. If you might be wrong, be polite.
EP: Just removed my soft claim, but I can tell you it is sinister - more sinister then anything you have seen vlaimed or anyone else here will claim (I suppose)
Well asked DD.. there are some rather unpleasant character claims roaming around.
Sadly though, I must retire from this discourse for a while, but I feel I've made my opinions well known. I probably will not comment for a couple of days. There is time to mull over what information has already been given however.
Cyan, unless you can back up your assertion that a complete soft-claim is going to help the town, there is no reason to listen to you.
We're currently operating under the assumption that for the most part, names are not tied to abilities, and most likely, there is no pattern to the scum roles. Which means that scum have little to fear in claiming their true role names.
I've only been an advocate of mass soft-claims when it has the potential to catch false-claimers, but when it appears that no one is going to false-claim, the positive impact of the soft-claim is reduced considerably, almost to nothing. The only "legitimate" reason I've seen supporting the claim is the reduced time frame, but that too is fear-mongering (see 24 Mafia for an example of a panicked town rushing more than necessary).
At this point, I'm going to say to everyone: ignore Cyan's attempts to bully people into soft-claiming. If you want to claim your name regardless of that, go ahead, but don't do it because someone is trying to beat it out of you with poor logic. If you don't want to claim your name, then don't. Simple as that, and saves ourselves from prolonging this discussion.
In the meantime, we should really be focusing on analyzing people.
Which contradicts the most logical conclusion if everyone's role is scummy sounding.
I disagree. The raven as a character is a bad guy in ways that many others are not. The vast majority of characters that have been offered up have been bad guys, sure, but they've all been bad guys who could say they were doing stuff for a good reason.
Obviously, generally, it isn't really a good reason, but from their perspective, even the Satan of Paradise Lost and Hannibal Lecter had motivations that were not inherently, say, malicious?
You can't say the same for the raven. If someone claimed to be the Joker, or Chuckie, or something, it would be as bad.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
I don't believe I've "suggested" any roles for Azrael, Pod.. but I'll be glad to tell you my opinion on what I think Azrael is playing at.
I think he's a cultist. (yes, you may dismiss my rantings if you want.. but remember what happened the last time)
As for where I've played before... the 'Newsies would know me.
A little odd. You think that Big Brother would be likely to be a cult leader, and that I'm not Big Brother, therefore you think I'm a cultist?
Ah...I think I see. You're arguing that I'm a cult recruit and not a cult leader? Not the case, but it makes more sense than arguing I'm a non-BB cult leader. At any rate, I doubt someone else is going to come along tomorrrow and claim to be BB, so I think that would dispel the recruit theory at minimum.
I disagree. The raven as a character is a bad guy in ways that many others are not. The vast majority of characters that have been offered up have been bad guys, sure, but they've all been bad guys who could say they were doing stuff for a good reason.
Obviously, generally, it isn't really a good reason, but from their perspective, even the Satan of Paradise Lost and Hannibal Lecter had motivations that were not inherently, say, malicious?
You can't say the same for the raven. If someone claimed to be the Joker, or Chuckie, or something, it would be as bad.
The raven is easily the worst claim so far.
White Witch?
I rather doubt we want to try to determine our lynch based upon comparisons of badness by flavor.
CP: So you believe that there is a pattern to the scum in this game and we should already be pursuing people based solely on name claims?
I was just explaining why I was voting Charm. 1) I don't remotely see how the raven could have a pro-town motivation, unlike many of the other roles here, and 2) It's worth starting a bandwagon, and this isn't a bad place to start.
I rather doubt we want to try to determine our lynch based upon comparisons of badness by flavor.
I would say even the Witch has a motivation that could be interpreted as pro-town given the context of the game, but regardless, determining the lynch and determining the next bandwagon are not very similar things.
I'd be happy to merely extract a claim, and go from there.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Ah, I didn't catch the day deadline policy. hm. I assume people need one vote to lynch, then, despite the policy, otherwise Niv's role is silliness.
@Softclaim: Assuming you're talking about a book claim, I'm not even remotely a fan. All it takes is one person to reveal a rolename that makes it blatantly obvious what their role is (Dr Jekyll, Sherlock Holmes, w/ever), and we'll just feel like complete idiots. And that even aside from the fact that once people have revealed their rolename, they're going to be much likely to want to claim the rest of it, even if they don't slip up during the claims process itself (which is not at all unlikely). And we don't even know if there is a pattern in the scums at all or what that pattern is. Worst case scenario is a perfectly plausible 'we out all our rolenames for no apparent purpose'. I'll participate if it's decided on, but hemorrhaging role info into the thread does not strike me as a good play.
UnVote ~, Vote Pod just the way theis is worded bugs me, as well as how he bashjes my role.
Originally Posted by fadeblue CP: So you believe that there is a pattern to the scum in this game and we should already be pursuing people based solely on name claims?
I was just explaining why I was voting Charm. 1) I don't remotely see how the raven could have a pro-town motivation, unlike many of the other roles here, and 2) It's worth starting a bandwagon, and this isn't a bad place to start.
So, pursuing, yes. Lynching, obviously not.
Seriously, Abbey has learned about making scum groups that have identifiable claims. That's how alcohol mafia got broken open. I know it's gaming the mod but I'm sure he wouldn't make the same mistake twice. Vote CP
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EBWODP: @CM: No, Alcohol mafia got broken open because the scum group played horribly, no offense to anyone. Hell, the GF claimed it the last day if memory serves me correctly.
That vote looks horribly OMGUS, and aren't you equally gaming the mod?
I disagree. The raven as a character is a bad guy in ways that many others are not. The vast majority of characters that have been offered up have been bad guys, sure, but they've all been bad guys who could say they were doing stuff for a good reason.
Obviously, generally, it isn't really a good reason, but from their perspective, even the Satan of Paradise Lost and Hannibal Lecter had motivations that were not inherently, say, malicious?
You can't say the same for the raven. If someone claimed to be the Joker, or Chuckie, or something, it would be as bad.
The raven is easily the worst claim so far.
This is patently absurd. The White Witch from Narnia was clear-cut evil, for example. Poe's raven, on the other hand, wasn't evil...he's a reflection of the author's despair.
I'd like to figure out what effect I gain from my claiming, first; Abbey hasn't said anything.
Okay. I'd like to re-visit this later.
A little odd. You think that Big Brother would be likely to be a cult leader, and that I'm not Big Brother, therefore you think I'm a cultist?
Ah...I think I see. You're arguing that I'm a cult recruit and not a cult leader? Not the case, but it makes more sense than arguing I'm a non-BB cult leader. At any rate, I doubt someone else is going to come along tomorrrow and claim to be BB, so I think that would dispel the recruit theory at minimum.
Er...we started in day. How could you be a cult recruit already?
Also, cults are stupid, and I strongly, strongly doubt Abbey would include one.
Carrier Pigeon - for over-reliance on flavor, and trying to draw a cop.
Cyan - For abysmal logic, although I'm told this tis typical. Guess I need to read a game he was in. Suggestions?
Stormblind - skimming, low posts, and a tone that suggests trying to blend in.
Carrier Pigeon - for over-reliance on flavor, and trying to draw a cop.
Cyan - For abysmal logic, although I'm told this tis typical. Guess I need to read a game he was in. Suggestions?
Stormblind - skimming, low posts, and a tone that suggests trying to blend in.
It's not my fault i have things to do other then just sit here living on this thread. I post once /twice a day, which honestly, is as much / more then you (Cept for your you know, triple/quadruple posts)
Look, we all know that day one is a crapshoot. It'd be nice to lynch scum, but the odds are against it. The information and discussion around the various wagons are the important thing, and there's no reason why it can't be done in ~10 days instead of 30+. After a certain point, the extra posts are just noise, and diminishing returns kicks in.
This seems INCREDIBLY similar to the whole, "Its rare to lynch a scum day one, so lets lynch whoever!" Which is generally a really strong scum tell, soo...
Unvote, Vote Jsexton
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[19:59] greymon90210: Hey StormBlind how tall are you? "I'm six money *****, don't forget it"
"The Critics always said that we'd only have a black president when pigs flu"...
It's not my fault i have things to do other then just sit here living on this thread. I post once /twice a day, which honestly, is as much / more then you (Cept for your you know, triple/quadruple posts)
Wow. Yeah, I generally check in a couple times a day, same as you. Except when I do it, I read the whole thread , respond to everything that needs responding to, and ask questions. You've posted 3 times before, once with a random vote for a non-player, once to complain about people posting too much, and once to jump on the claimwagon.
You haven't contributed jack crap, and you know it, yet you have the chutzpah to pretend that you've contributed more than me.
Again...wow.
This seems INCREDIBLY similar to the whole, "Its rare to lynch a scum day one, so lets lynch whoever!" Which is generally a really strong scum tell, soo...
No. Not even close. Not even a tiny bit.
Read it again. Do you disagree with the notion that day one generally lynches a townie, and that it's main value is for later analysis? If so, please explain, because I'd love to tear that argument to shreds. If you DON'T disagree, then hey, we're in agreement, because that's exactly what I said, nothing more.
Yeah, actually, this early, I think that's enough for a Vote: StormBlind.
He's jumping on JSexton on some really terrible points and JSexton's low postcount is probably giving SB the illusion that JSexton is a nub and easy pickins. He's horrendously wrong.
I consider the line about "This seems INCREDIBLY similar to the whole, "Its rare to lynch a scum day one, so lets lynch whoever!" Which is generally a really strong scum tell, soo..." to be not only misleading, but intentionally so. This is blatantly misrepresenting what Jsexton said.
It's not exactly "OMG HE'S SCUM!" but it's a pretty good tell for this early in the game.
Wow. Yeah, I generally check in a couple times a day, same as you. Except when I do it, I read the whole thread , respond to everything that needs responding to, and ask questions. You've posted 3 times before, once with a random vote for a non-player, once to complain about people posting too much, and once to jump on the claimwagon.
You haven't contributed jack crap, and you know it, yet you have the chutzpah to pretend that you've contributed more than me.
Down sparky, i dont give a **** what you think. the games what? 3 days in? WOW. And sorry buddy, but i have contributed more then that, so dont go trying to **** with me and say i havent contributed anything, when, to quote cyan "You've jumped in, said 'Soft-claims are bad mmkay?'" and thats about it.
Again...wow.
No. Not even close. Not even a tiny bit.
Read it again. Do you disagree with the notion that day one generally lynches a townie, and that it's main value is for later analysis? If so, please explain, because I'd love to tear that argument to shreds.
Pfe, as if you got the intelligence to tear it to shreds, people like you piss me off, cause you think that you know everything that there is, and your responses so far to Cyan are basically the same. You're a confrontational dick, and ill treat you like such / ignore you.
Yeah, actually, this early, I think that's enough for a Vote: StormBlind.
He's jumping on JSexton on some really terrible points and JSexton's low postcount is probably giving SB the illusion that JSexton is a nub and easy pickins. He's horrendously wrong.
Actually, as i stated earlier in this post, his general play style pisses me off. He's a confrontational know it all, all without any reason i can see. I saw that, added with my dislike of his play style, and yea, i consider it a vote worthy offense. And note, im not making a case, i never do. I find someone i dont like, i vote for them, and leave it at that. If others seem to agree, well yay, if not, i really dont care.
I consider the line about "This seems INCREDIBLY similar to the whole, "Its rare to lynch a scum day one, so lets lynch whoever!" Which is generally a really strong scum tell, soo..." to be not only misleading, but intentionally so. This is blatantly misrepresenting what Jsexton said.
And how is it misleading? Am i saying thats what he said? No, im saying thats how *I* see it, which is all that matters. You dont like it? Ignore it, im not trying to get your attention anyway.
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[19:59] greymon90210: Hey StormBlind how tall are you? "I'm six money *****, don't forget it"
"The Critics always said that we'd only have a black president when pigs flu"...
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Except that if there is a good scum reason to want the soft claim, they can hide in a field of townies and speak up in favor without drawing attention to themself in particular. Don't be too quick to label the pro-softclaim folks as townie.
We've got over a week before we even get close to no longer requiring a lynch. We have a reasonable amount of time.
In fact, I think we should consider the last day that requires a majority to lynch to be the actual deadline.
Just so you don't think they're alone, I've disagreed with virtually everything you've said in this thread. FYI.
As for you disagreeing with me, I couldn't care less. What have you contributed thus far? 'Soft-claims are bad!' Thanks for the insight.
/sarcasm
For the claim:
Cyan - The White Witch
Azrael - Big Brother
Vampyr - no claim yet, but really wants to claim.
carrion pigeons - Magua
charm master - The Raven
Dragon Dart - Circe
StormBlind - Hannibal Lecter
HAWEYE7 - Newt Hoenikker
Wuffles II - Satan
Wrath of Dog - Old Man of the Sea
Against Claim:
DYH 7
Grakthis
Cubus
ZasZ234
Pod
fade blue
Kraj
Jerubbaal
Unknown:
Niv
GiftsTrix
~Tilde~
Jobie
JSexton
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Actually, I take that back. Grakthis(echoed by fadeblue) had the most reasonable non-support response, in that we shouldn't do it unless there is a good reason to do so. Obviously I think that there is, and he/they might disagree, but that response was vastly more helpful than paragraphs of nonsense fearmongering.
Also, it's erronous to assume that soft-claiming is going to automatically have a noticeable, tangible benefit. How often does that happen? Virtually never. But in the games that I've seen where a soft-claimed was enacted, especially under abnormal circumstances, it has always benefited the town. So, I have precedent on my side, while you have theory. Good luck with that.
True.
Against does have a negative connotation to it. I shall revist the list.
Updated list.
For the claim:
Cyan - The White Witch
Azrael - Big Brother
Vampyr - no claim yet, but really wants to claim.
carrion pigeons - Magua
charm master - The Raven
Dragon Dart - Circe
StormBlind - Hannibal Lecter
HAWEYE7 - Newt Hoenikker
Wuffles II - Satan
Wrath of Dog - Old Man of the Sea
Against Claim and/or simply not participating:
DYH 7
Grakthis
Cubus
ZasZ234
Pod
fade blue
Kraj
Jerubbaal
Unknown:
Niv
GiftsTrix
~Tilde~
Jobie
JSexton
For all those not participating, at the very least work with and use the information that others have provided you with. I'm sure that most of you will, but for those who are truely opposed to the claim don't let that position keep you from looking over the information to the best of your ability.
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@Cubus: By 'not participating', of course Hawkeye means 'not participating in the claim'. Not in the game itself.
Regarding a mass soft claim, I would not be opposed to it, but it should not be random like it has been. As it stands, all those who have claimed at this point have been, shall we say, exceedingly eager to do so. That does not reflect well on those who have, in my humble opinion.
I have reasonable reason to doubt Azrael's claim in particular, I'm not certain as to the why of it though. His response of:
makes me think that he has some ability linked to convincing people that his claim is true. Somehow I doubt that would be a beneficial ability... at least to everyone else.
Vote Azrael
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There is absolutely no reason why a day one should take a month. If a mod gives you a month, you've no incentive to speed up. When you have less time, I think you'll find that getting it done is perfectly reasonable.
Look, we all know that day one is a crapshoot. It'd be nice to lynch scum, but the odds are against it. The information and discussion around the various wagons are the important thing, and there's no reason why it can't be done in ~10 days instead of 30+. After a certain point, the extra posts are just noise, and diminishing returns kicks in.
You want to tangle with me? Good luck.
You've posted more, sure, but I'd argue that your contributions are detrimental to the town, due to your stubborness, poor logic, and steadfast ability to selectively ignore things you have no answer for.
It's a common role at MT, where Abbey does most of his playing.
Spartacus was a gimmick role that showed up in several games. Sometimes the player really was Spartacus, sometimes Spartacus was a fake claim that the player could use and gain some bonus from it.
I think he's a cultist. (yes, you may dismiss my rantings if you want.. but remember what happened the last time)
As for where I've played before... the 'Newsies would know me.
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For someone openly against the claim you seem to be using the information that it has provided extensively.
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Except now you've given the mafia that information as well.
Who benefits most from a list of names that are in the town? That's right, people fake claiming.
an FYI to the entire town. If anyoen does this, I will push hard for their lynch. 9 times out of 10 only scum would pull that lie, and i've seen them try it MULTIPLE tmes.
"Oh wait, did I claim vanilla? I meant that I am the doc. That's why you saw me targeting someone last night."
Cyan, I guarantee you that if you can give me a valid reason that shows that it's more likely to HELP us than HURT us to softclaim right now I'll give eithe rmy name or my book, whichever you prefer.
In the meantime, I see absolutly no benefit to this. And in fact, given Abbey's connections to MT and past roles there, I can see one role already that should have stayed hidden and is now exposed and it could be terrible for us.
We are stictly talking about a name claim here. As such, I see little danger of this happening.
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Oh god...I don't even want to know what happens if someone tries to counterclaim that...spamfest galore?
Hawkeye: QFT. unless it's glaringly obvious, which I doubt in a game like this, name claims won't reveal all the power roles.
When Az is refering to Big Brother, is he talking about the reality show, or something totally different?
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"claiming-diarrhea"
I noticed that too. Interesting.
QFT.
No offense to Cyan, but this is pretty much par for the course for him, J.
I felt Cyan made some decent points regarding Pod early on, but they seemed to ultimately be based on this point:
And this seems weak to me. At best, Pod had come to the conclusion there was a pattern, which is not the same thing as "knowing". And if I may be so bold it is likely most of us were noticing the same pattern at that point. CP even posted so shortly after. And it's not as if a townie wouldn't have a good reason be hesitant about revealing role information.
Interestingly, after noting everyone's claim so far is scummy-sounding CP then votes CM, saying:
Which contradicts the most logical conclusion if everyone's role is scummy sounding.
So, we should mass claim because we are under a time constraint, and we should lynch as quickly as possible because we're under a time constraint. Are there any other things that are generally bad for the town we should do because we're under a time constraint?
Honestly, I see the reasoning behind these ideas but it really feels like an overreaction to an unusual game restraint.
I would also like to see these examples. I've not played in any games where there were mass claims early in the game, but I've been told on many occasions that they generally favor the scum. Some counter examples would be quite helpful.
Overall I think the mass claim has been handled poorly but I don't think any of the claims so far have demonstrated obvious role information, so I don't see a serious danger in participating at this point.
I am IT from A Wrinkle in Time.
As far as who to vote for, Cyan's behavior is a non-tell as far as I'm concerned. And though I don't agree with all Cyan's reasons for voting him, I think ZasZ was overly aggressive with his vote on CP and his reaction to Azrael, and was overly defensive when pressured.
Vote: ZasZ234
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I'm sure he's refering to the "1984" version..... two plus two does not make five in my book.
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Do you still find this to be the case?
Sadly though, I must retire from this discourse for a while, but I feel I've made my opinions well known. I probably will not comment for a couple of days. There is time to mull over what information has already been given however.
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We're currently operating under the assumption that for the most part, names are not tied to abilities, and most likely, there is no pattern to the scum roles. Which means that scum have little to fear in claiming their true role names.
I've only been an advocate of mass soft-claims when it has the potential to catch false-claimers, but when it appears that no one is going to false-claim, the positive impact of the soft-claim is reduced considerably, almost to nothing. The only "legitimate" reason I've seen supporting the claim is the reduced time frame, but that too is fear-mongering (see 24 Mafia for an example of a panicked town rushing more than necessary).
At this point, I'm going to say to everyone: ignore Cyan's attempts to bully people into soft-claiming. If you want to claim your name regardless of that, go ahead, but don't do it because someone is trying to beat it out of you with poor logic. If you don't want to claim your name, then don't. Simple as that, and saves ourselves from prolonging this discussion.
In the meantime, we should really be focusing on analyzing people.
I disagree. The raven as a character is a bad guy in ways that many others are not. The vast majority of characters that have been offered up have been bad guys, sure, but they've all been bad guys who could say they were doing stuff for a good reason.
Obviously, generally, it isn't really a good reason, but from their perspective, even the Satan of Paradise Lost and Hannibal Lecter had motivations that were not inherently, say, malicious?
You can't say the same for the raven. If someone claimed to be the Joker, or Chuckie, or something, it would be as bad.
The raven is easily the worst claim so far.
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I'd like to figure out what effect I gain from my claiming, first; Abbey hasn't said anything.
A little odd. You think that Big Brother would be likely to be a cult leader, and that I'm not Big Brother, therefore you think I'm a cultist?
Ah...I think I see. You're arguing that I'm a cult recruit and not a cult leader? Not the case, but it makes more sense than arguing I'm a non-BB cult leader. At any rate, I doubt someone else is going to come along tomorrrow and claim to be BB, so I think that would dispel the recruit theory at minimum.
White Witch?
I rather doubt we want to try to determine our lynch based upon comparisons of badness by flavor.
Wasn't that one of the little old ladies? She wasn't a villan.
Well, there goes that theory. Unless you're scum, obv.
Are you scum?
You're thinking of Mrs. Whatsit. IT is the brain.
Though of course this does not preclude Kraj from being scum.
I thought there were 3 ladies and each one had a weird name like that.
You're right though, that could be the name of the brain. It's been a decade since I read that.
I was just explaining why I was voting Charm. 1) I don't remotely see how the raven could have a pro-town motivation, unlike many of the other roles here, and 2) It's worth starting a bandwagon, and this isn't a bad place to start.
So, pursuing, yes. Lynching, obviously not.
I would say even the Witch has a motivation that could be interpreted as pro-town given the context of the game, but regardless, determining the lynch and determining the next bandwagon are not very similar things.
I'd be happy to merely extract a claim, and go from there.
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I am coming along to the idea of the soft calim:
I am Winston Niles Rumfoord from The Sirens of Titan.
I did do a read of the thread, the most scumy thing imo that i saw was this:
UnVote ~, Vote Pod just the way theis is worded bugs me, as well as how he bashjes my role.
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More posting to come after this weekend.
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Seriously, Abbey has learned about making scum groups that have identifiable claims. That's how alcohol mafia got broken open. I know it's gaming the mod but I'm sure he wouldn't make the same mistake twice. Vote CP
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I find it strange that Cyan wouldn't want to back up his position with references - that's not making any sense. FoS: Cyan
I can't say that 'cult' was the first thing that popped into my head from "Big Brother".
I'm Spartacus! j/k
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That vote looks horribly OMGUS, and aren't you equally gaming the mod?
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Yes, IT is the brain. The three ladies were Mrs Whatsit, Mrs Who and Mrs Which (It's been a long time since I've read it too; had to look it up.)
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This is patently absurd. The White Witch from Narnia was clear-cut evil, for example. Poe's raven, on the other hand, wasn't evil...he's a reflection of the author's despair.
Okay. I'd like to re-visit this later.
Er...we started in day. How could you be a cult recruit already?
Also, cults are stupid, and I strongly, strongly doubt Abbey would include one.
Carrier Pigeon - for over-reliance on flavor, and trying to draw a cop.
Cyan - For abysmal logic, although I'm told this tis typical. Guess I need to read a game he was in. Suggestions?
Stormblind - skimming, low posts, and a tone that suggests trying to blend in.
It's not my fault i have things to do other then just sit here living on this thread. I post once /twice a day, which honestly, is as much / more then you (Cept for your you know, triple/quadruple posts)
On a seperate note.
This seems INCREDIBLY similar to the whole, "Its rare to lynch a scum day one, so lets lynch whoever!" Which is generally a really strong scum tell, soo...
Unvote, Vote Jsexton
You haven't contributed jack crap, and you know it, yet you have the chutzpah to pretend that you've contributed more than me.
Again...wow.
No. Not even close. Not even a tiny bit.
Read it again. Do you disagree with the notion that day one generally lynches a townie, and that it's main value is for later analysis? If so, please explain, because I'd love to tear that argument to shreds. If you DON'T disagree, then hey, we're in agreement, because that's exactly what I said, nothing more.
He's jumping on JSexton on some really terrible points and JSexton's low postcount is probably giving SB the illusion that JSexton is a nub and easy pickins. He's horrendously wrong.
I consider the line about "This seems INCREDIBLY similar to the whole, "Its rare to lynch a scum day one, so lets lynch whoever!" Which is generally a really strong scum tell, soo..." to be not only misleading, but intentionally so. This is blatantly misrepresenting what Jsexton said.
It's not exactly "OMG HE'S SCUM!" but it's a pretty good tell for this early in the game.
Pfe, as if you got the intelligence to tear it to shreds, people like you piss me off, cause you think that you know everything that there is, and your responses so far to Cyan are basically the same. You're a confrontational dick, and ill treat you like such / ignore you.
Actually, as i stated earlier in this post, his general play style pisses me off. He's a confrontational know it all, all without any reason i can see. I saw that, added with my dislike of his play style, and yea, i consider it a vote worthy offense. And note, im not making a case, i never do. I find someone i dont like, i vote for them, and leave it at that. If others seem to agree, well yay, if not, i really dont care.
And how is it misleading? Am i saying thats what he said? No, im saying thats how *I* see it, which is all that matters. You dont like it? Ignore it, im not trying to get your attention anyway. Down sparky, i dont give a **** what you think. the games what? 3 days in? WOW. And sorry buddy, but i have contributed more then that, so dont go trying to **** with me and say i havent contributed anything, when, to quote cyan "You've jumped in, said 'Soft-claims are bad mmkay?'" and thats about it.