Indeed. People reacting poorly to the time pressure was one of the key things we took advantage of as Mafia in 24. Cyan should be aware of that.
A fixed deadline doesn't mean we need to rush to get info into the open. It simply means people need to contribute more often and to stop being indecisive (the main reason days go long).
I have no idea what to say, so much information has been dumped on the thread that it's very hard to discern what is and isn't useful.
I honestly would like to claim at this point as well, but seeing as how people are calling for a cease on the info dumping I will wait. Just please keep my request in mind.
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@fade: No, cautioning against a softclaim isn't necessarily fearmongering. But the points that Pod uses to do so combine into one big fearmongering effect(not to mention. Breaking it down:
Quote from Pod »
All it takes is one person to reveal a rolename that makes it blatantly obvious what their role is (Dr Jekyll, Sherlock Holmes, w/ever), and we'll just feel like complete idiots.
While this statement has a possibility of validity, it has at least as much possiblity of invalidity. Plus, the statement 'we'll just feel like complete idiots' seems pretty much 100% unnecessary and unhelpful. I find this to be fearmongering for obvious reasons.
Then he says:
Quote from Pod »
And that even aside from the fact that once people have revealed their rolename, they're going to be much likely to want to claim the rest of it, even if they don't slip up during the claims process itself (which is not at all unlikely).
This is totally irrational. Why would people just 'want' to claim the rest of their role? Rarely does anyone ever want to claim, and it only draws suspicion upon them when they do. Beyond that, it's pretty hard to slip-up during a soft-claim. I find this to be fearmongering as well. I mean, who wants to 'slip up during a soft-claim'.
Next:
Quote from Pod »
And we don't even know if there is a pattern in the scums at all or what that pattern is.
I wasn't aware that we were necessarily looking for a pattern. Either A)I missed that part of the discussion or B)Pod has made a huge error based upon pre-emptive knowledge.
Lastly,
Quote from Pod »
Worst case scenario is a perfectly plausible 'we out all our rolenames for no apparent purpose'.
I don't see what makes this worst case scenario 'perfectly plausible' at all. And again, more fearmongering here. Afterall, no one wants to out their rolename for no apparent reason, right?
I wasn't aware that we were necessarily looking for a pattern. Either A)I missed that part of the discussion or B)Pod has made a huge error based upon pre-emptive knowledge.
I think this you are oversimplifying. I know I'm not aware of any other discussion of patterns. But I don't automatically jump to the conclusion that 'B' has to be my only other option after that. This bit here sets me on edge since everything else in Cyan's post I find myself agreeing with.
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I don't really see the point of the name claims. I mean, I realize we had a deadline, but how does name claiming help that? I'll do it if someone can give me a reason stronger than "day is short."
I mean, the day is not actually short. We have like 2 weeks before the deadline method becomes relevant.
Do the math on it people. 23 players. It takes 11 days before we get to the point where half the town is a lynch.
I have no idea what to say, so much information has been dumped on the thread that it's very hard to discern what is and isn't useful.
I honestly would like to claim at this point as well, but seeing as how people are calling for a cease on the info dumping I will wait. Just please keep my request in mind.
Because I believe it's the best thing to do. Why do you feel the need to fish? I was just letting the town know of my desire.
I'm not fishing for your role; far from it. Put it another way, if there is a direct benefit to claiming your role today (built into the role, to counter-claim, to gain an ability, to draw a kill, whatev), by all means do it. But if the only reason you want to claim is to fit in with the claiming-diarrhea that's been happening, then I think that's a lousy reason. And I question your motivation if that's the case.
I think this you are oversimplifying. I know I'm not aware of any other discussion of patterns. But I don't automatically jump to the conclusion that 'B' has to be my only other option after that. This bit here sets me on edge since everything else in Cyan's post I find myself agreeing with.
I don't think it's oversimplifying. No one had said 'we should soft-claim to look for a pattern among the roles'. There is no real reason to assume that there would be a pattern among the roles at all. In particular, I don't think that anyone would assume a pattern among the scum roles, but not others. But that is the angle that Pod took. To me, Pod's statement only makes sense if he knows that such a pattern exists, and wants to discourage it being revealed.
knowing Az, he probably will claim something different, then proceed to gain 8 votes in the next 320 posts.
CP: just becuase I made an obsucre reference means I'm scum? It didn't seem like a random vote, so please explain yourself.
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I'm not fishing for your role; far from it. Put it another way, if there is a direct benefit to claiming your role today (built into the role, to counter-claim, to gain an ability, to draw a kill, whatev), by all means do it. But if the only reason you want to claim is to fit in with the claiming-diarrhea that's been happening, then I think that's a lousy reason. And I question your motivation if that's the case.
I understand you're not role fishing. But you are info fishing. If I just wanted to claim, I could have. I didn't because at least two players have called for a halt to the claiming. I have my reasons, but suffice it to say it's not to following along with the claim train.
I don't think it's oversimplifying. No one had said 'we should soft-claim to look for a pattern among the roles'. There is no real reason to assume that there would be a pattern among the roles at all. In particular, I don't think that anyone would assume a pattern among the scum roles, but not others. But that is the angle that Pod took. To me, Pod's statement only makes sense if he knows that such a pattern exists, and wants to discourage it being revealed.
Ok, so you're likening his statement to a Freudian slip?
ok, so I guess it's really that obvious that I'm the raven. still want to know why CP voted me.
and non, je ne veux pas le creme.
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What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Because, of all the claims, yours is the scummiest, which is saying something.
In what way? I dislike when someone calls something "scummy" without explaining why. Very little is scummy on its own. Context is key, and explaining the context is important so we know what you're thinking. The quoted statement means jack without some more words backing it up.
Just because Vampyr wants to go along with a claim that has, for all intents and purposes, already started, doesn't mean that he's just going to throw out his full role and hope for the best(the point that I was trying to make with that statement was that it's illogical to assume that people are going to just throw out their whole role when it's only a soft claim). None of the people that have claimed so far have given away anything more than their role name, have they?
Just because Vampyr wants to go along with a claim that has, for all intents and purposes, already started, doesn't mean that he's just going to throw out his full role and hope for the best(the point that I was trying to make with that statement was that it's illogical to assume that people are going to just throw out their whole role when it's only a soft claim). None of the people that have claimed so far have given away anything more than their role name, have they?
I think the focus was on the use of the word "want."
Regarding soft claim, I am against it, at least for the moment. It seems very likely to me that the roles are flavor related, so a soft claim is really only one short skip and a jump away from hard claim. Obviously, that's not desirable at the moment.
Also, considering what other people have been saying and my knowledge of my own role, claiming in itself seems to be a mechanic in the roles. So people might have very different reasons for desiring to claim or not to claim, not all of which are necessarily pro-town or anti-town. I'm still trying to figure out the situation, I'll post again when I think I have a better grasp on it.
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As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
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There have been a few hints at roles (such as Niv's), but nothing concrete, indeed. I must've misunderstood Vampyr when he said he wanted to claim. Sorry for that. Point remains, however, that people are very eager to throw out their rolename for no particular purpose right now, and that needs to stop.
I'm not sure how you could misunderstand "want to." I stated I wanted to claim. I still do.
Also as said Cyan said, it's just a name claim, not a full role claim. I believe that's one thing that I didn't mention.
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Also as said Cyan said, it's just a name claim, not a full role claim.
It's very likely more than that. I see little reason to believe that the roles are in no way related to their flavor. I am sure part of the attraction of a format like this is the puzzle of unentangling the roles, so there is little reason for the flavor if it has no link to the roles. I really do strongly believe that a soft claim will end up being very close to a hard claim for anyone with the perception to figure it all out. So, at least for now, I really do think that a soft claim is a bad idea.
I do find it very interesting that some people have stated that they are supposed to claim certain things, such as Azrael claiming Big Brother today, but strongly implying that such might not be the case tomorrow. My role, and I'm inclined to believe other roles as well, interact in certain ways with that claim. It seems very likely to me that Azrael is not Big Brother, but claiming such is part of the mechanics of his role. Why that claim is necessary, I'm not sure, but figuring out exactly what his goals are with this claim is one of my foremost goals at the moment, primarily because of the strangeness of the way he worded his claim. It's a huge abnormality, and one I'm really surprised has not gotten more attention before now.
MTGS stats (won/played)
As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
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The notion that someone would be forced to false-claim is patently absurd. If Az says he's Big Brother, then, he's Big Brother. Which means nothing at all.
Also, I have already said this, but it's unlikely that people giving away their rolename is going to be a big clue about their role. I know this for a fact, in my own case. I think that people using this line of thought just don't want to claim, and should just say so, or try to provide a reason that hasn't been rebuked already.
The notion that someone would be forced to false-claim is patently absurd. If Az says he's Big Brother, then, he's Big Brother. Which means nothing at all.
There's a role from MTGS Redux that would like to have a word with you outside.
The notion that someone would be forced to false-claim is patently absurd. If Az says he's Big Brother, then, he's Big Brother. Which means nothing at all.
In your opinion.
In my opinion it's not patently absurd. It's a possibility that may or may not be the case. It is one of several possibilites that are more or less likely then the others of being true. Considering the amount of information we currently have to work with I think it is unwise to completely dismiss anything without solid information to support that dismissal.
I also don't see the wisdom behind a disorganized, and uncontrolled hemorrage of role information. I am normally infavor of mass claims but this one, so far seems very chaotic. There should be a consensus of what is to be claimed and those willing to go along can do so. That way it can be discussed prior to being done and the specific information intended to try to clear townies or constrict/reveal scum can be decided.
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For the claim:
Cyan - The White Witch
Azrael - Big Brother
Vampyr - no claim yet, but really wants to claim.
carrion pigeons - Magua
charm master - The Raven
Dragon Dart - Circe
Against Claim:
DYH 7
Grakthis
Cubus
ZasZ234
Pod
fade blue
StormBlind
Kraj
Jerubbaal
Unknown:
Niv
Wrath of Dog
GiftsTrix
Wuffles II
~Tilde~
Jobie
JSexton
In looking over the thread to make this list and re-reading my role I think that as long as we restrict the claim to names and from them any information that can be gleened regarding the book the name is from, that I am for the soft claim.
My name is Newt Hoenikker.
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There are two options regarding roles in this game:
A) Roles are rolename-related: In this case we're giving away way too much info when softclaiming.
B) Roles aren't rolename-related: In this case, softclaiming hasn't got much purpose at all, seeing as anyone could still claim anything regardless of their rolename.
Here, Here. And I particularity share Hawk eye's concern with the chaotic nature of this soft claim call. With a time limit to the discussion and end of the day getting into a rush is always going to be a very real possibility, and that rush only helps scum. The only information that seems to being put out there is in reference to the claim, not in reference to other players. All this time and energy is going away from networking/establishing relationships and going towards pro or against name claims. When I say networking, I mean the usual task of wagoning and forcing to claim. Some will defend player X some will attack. The information of who does what and when, and for what reasons, is what kind wind up giving the town information as to who is scum or not. Not always the most reliable but at least information. Scum/Town both have reasons to not want the claim to be made, and the issue of the mass claim is an issue not of how we can currently benefit the town, but a gambit of theory. With such a short time on our hands we need to stick with what we know will work.
In the past 96 posts (including mine) there have been a total of 5 actual votes and no wagon forming. The last vote being on page 54. The rest has been discussion as to whether or not to soft claim, which is taking away from possible wagons. And the discussion itself seems pointless as those who really are in favor of the mass claim have already started without discussion. Haste makes waste.
EPWOPD: Another quick point before I move on, the very essence of claiming before the decision whether or not to is completed by the town is only going to isolate the players who don't claim. Aka the ones who fall under group A, or the ones who fall under group B, but realize that group A can exist. Nothing good here.
These last couple points of discussion have been really good. I do, in general, consider those pushing for a claim here to be fairly townie, because it's generally a townie mistake, but it's still a mistake. The case may possibly be made that a soft-claim may do no harm (despite knowing to the contrary), but I find little to no reason to believe that a soft-claim will actually help the town. I am curious why the proponents of a soft-claim think that doing so will actually help the town. I know, from my role, that claiming certain things can have a very specific effect on the gamestate. I have never actually done a scenario quite as far out as this one, but I know, at least in the case of my role, that a soft-claim will hurt the town. Those who are just saying "no problem" and throwing stuff out there are not playing well.
Regarding the Azrael thing, I curious what other people think about the claiming Big Brother "today" thing means. I am trying very hard to figure it out, but I really think Abbey has some absurdly wacky roles in this game. Certain claims mean certain things, and that meaning is not always completely apparent.
I don't know how this whole picture comes together, but, unless I'm mistaken, and I could very easily be, being new here, Abbey seems like the kind of person who is fond of intricacy. There is a web around this Big Brother thing, but I don't know where it goes or what it means.
I am unsure of the whole situation, but I will venture a guess that more people will end up claiming Big Brother as this game goes on. I'm willing to bet heavily that it is part of a role function. Whether that function is pro- or anti-town is something we need to figure out.
MTGS stats (won/played)
As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
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Another quick note - simply because your role does not necessarily key to function does not mean that others follow the same pattern. If it is true that flavor keys to function, a soft-claim is entirely detrimental to the town. If it is the case that flavor has no key to function, I see absolutely no benefit in claiming at all, as it's a meaningless gesture as far as finding scum. It seems very likely, however, that certain flavor keys to function, while other roles are more or less independent (i.e., probably generic townie and scum) However, it seems likely that certain roles involve claiming certain things, and forcing those players hands at inopportune times seems likely to hurt the town (it will in my case). It seems obvious that certain soft-claims will occur in order to be responsible to roles, but calling for a mass soft-claim is not a positive move for the town.
MTGS stats (won/played)
As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
I'm now writing for Eye of the Vortex, come check out MTG articles and other geek culture
I also moderate the MTG forum, so register (it's free) and voice your thoughts.
at this point, it's pretty obvious that a name claim won't do much except maybe lucksack into a counterclaim (which is less likely than me getting on the mafia council tomorrow).
Admittedly, this makes those who don't support the claim somewhat suspicious...
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I think this claim has been plenty valuable so far. So far, we've seen a few roles. None of which actually have to do with the 1001 Nights mythos. Additionally, most of the roles are what would typically be described as 'Bad Guys'. I think that both of these will prove to be vital pieces of information, and justify everyone else claiming.
You act like this information is surprising, Cyan. What exactly were you expecting? Abbey already told us from the start that we're dealing with characters from different literary sources, and we didn't need to soft claim to confirm that some roles are "bad guys." I fail to see how this justifies anything.
You continue to push for this soft claim without providing valid reason to do so.
I think that the truncated timeframe for this game is reason enough alone. The town needs to have as much information possible at it's disposal at all time, assuming that this information isn't harmful to anyone. Which it most likely isn't, considering that it's just a rolename claim. While it's not likely that patterns exist amongst the roles, it's a possibility. Essentially, I see no reason NOT to have a claim of some sort, considering the circumstances. I flatly disagree with all of Pod's expressed reasons, which, if he is sincere in them at all(which I find doubtful, from past experiences with Pod), seem to result from paranoia more than anything else. Additionally, there is at least some possibility of the claim benefiting the town directly.
I think you understood one of my points, also. So far what, 5 people have claimed, most of which claimed rolenames of 'bad guys', with no discernable pattern amongst them. This seems exceedingly relevant, to me.
So, from my perspective, things go as follows, based off of the information that we have so far:
No apparent drawbacks to a rolename claim.
Possibility of benefits of a rolename claim.
Working on a truncated timetable, we need as much information as possible when making decisions. And I seriously, seriously don't think we're still going to want to be discussing things 2 weeks into the day. At that point, a lynch will take like 8 people, which makes it ridiculously easy for people to get mislynched, especially with a 23 person group. We need to make efficient decisions within a week to 10 days, which changes the mindset for the game, IMO.
Anyway, I think people are oversimplifying the situation. Clearly, there are roles in the game that will want claim information, and clearly there are roles in the game that want it hidden. To say that going one way or another on this claim is conclusively good or bad is naive.
The one thing we do know is that some roles will benefit from having claims available. Odds are decent that we have a few information roles on the town side that can offer some insight into players as we go on. Odds are decent that there's an information role of some kind on the scum side, too. Odds are also decent that there are roles that want to keep information hidden - but those roles are far more likely to found on roles with other alignments than town, which is one reason to pursue this. The other is that it has a fair to good chance of aiding the town in lynch decisions.
In other words, the general impact of a soft claim is probably going to be good for the town. That's hardly guaranteed, but I think it's a worthwhile risk.
If people don't want to claim their rolenames, they can certainly claim whatever they feel comfortable with: the book they're from, the third letter of their last name, whether or not they're the doc :P...
What's that? Okay, not that last one, if you please.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Also, I want to say that I highly, highly recommend lynching as early as possible today. The later in the day we lynch anyone, the less information the wagon will give us, since there will be fewer people on it.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
I don't really understand where you're going with that, Cubus. Why can't Hannibal Lecter be in the game? I'ver read the thread, but, maybe I just missed something..or something. Care to explain?
I soft claimed because I didn't see the harm in it, and I did it before a discussion of the pros and cons of a mass claim because it is probably better to spend our limited time discussing actions, and not rehashing the theoretical pros and cons of revealing flavor until we are left scurrying for something on which to base a lynch.
I also think CP has a good point in that it will be much much easier for scum to stay off of wagons entirely if we put them off to the last minute. This would speed the game up significantly though, giving less time to build cases/wagons and find the best lynch possible. The tension between the benefits of having quick days and having long ones is a pretty clever way for Abbey to avert another Matrix-sized mafia thread.
Also, I want to say that I highly, highly recommend lynching as early as possible today. The later in the day we lynch anyone, the less information the wagon will give us, since there will be fewer people on it.
And the only way we can do that is to stop trying to go along with the soft claim. More people oppose it than support it, and we've already got the possible information; lots of bad guys. (Thought that's probably implied in the opening post where abbey says that good and evil are relative terms....but hey why read that.)
So how about we talk about people now and not theory? Please?
My reads: hardly none. The whole speculation of soft claiming can't really be interpreted as scum or town, unless we want a WIFOM lynch today. And all of the wagons have been ended due to being ignored, so there really isn't much player reaction to read.
I'm officially against jerubbaal claiming - is this a more understandable example, Cyan?
No, you being 'against' someone else claiming is not understandable at all. What is even less understandable is why you would make such a statement. If you're town, all you've done by your unrealistic opposition is put a big target on both of your heads. Congratulations there.
You know it FOR A FACT, IN YOUR OWN CASE - I already explained why this is bad logic - while I say my role will probably not guessed by the scum, I also realize, that I may be not the rule, but the exception - even more so, maybe I am the rule, but we still have exceptions.
What I find interesting is that you claim my logic is 'bad logic', but are using the exact same logic, but in reverse.
That's why a soft claim has to be generally refused instead of saying "only if you want", because it ends in those that not claim being suspicious of a telling role name - also when in a minority the town easily presses their name and then Dr. *** is even more of a target for the scum - all you get is townies considering false claiming to hide their role and end up being killed to LAL - ortownies not taking the risk and being nigt killed by the scum.
This is a logical fallacy. If anything, previous games on this site have shown that soft-claims work just fine. They have helped the town win plenty of times. Is there a risk of a Doc getting outed? Only if he is retarded and doesn't just claim something else. It's not like people won't believe him later if he has to say 'I am really the Doc but didn't want to out myself'. I mean honestly, this stuff is common sense.
QFT
Don't say 'QFT' when the statement isn't true at all. Feel free to cite some examples of townies loving to claim. If such were the case, I imagine we would see alot more mass-claims. And, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Are you going to back up any of these statements, or at least say something that makes sense? Ever?
It could be a liar, a shapeshifter, a meta-role. This is a speciality-game, I expect everything. I thought about pushing it, but obviously that's exactly the problem: We're concentrating on analyzing the claims already - call me a prophet for knowing that would happen! Or just address it to common sense.
No one is 'concentrating' on claims, with the exception of people like you that are just trying to dodge a bullet.
I have claimed being a bad boy without revealing my role - that's what I call a good play. You obv haven't considered reading the introductionary post? I guessed at that theme when I saw my role-PM and saw I was not an Arabian Nights character.
That's what I call a scummy play, if anything. Wow, you hopped on the 'bad boy' bandwagon. Now you can appear to be claiming the same as people that you may know to be town, but still have time to come up with a false-claim that fits the motif. Not impressive.
Jerubaal already said his soft claim would be harmful, maybe SB hinted at the same. Therefore assumption=wrong.
SB didn't hint at that at all, he 'hinted' that his rolename sucks..and it does. So what if Jerubaal said his soft claim would be harmful? If it's not in the case of anyone that has claimed thus far, or that is willing to claim, I'd say that it's Jerubaal that looks like the liar, here.
Claim of some sort => acceptable; mass name claim => not acceptable
All of the roles claimed thus far conclusively prove that people claiming their name is indeed 'acceptable'.
Uh, yeah, FoS: Cyan for ignoring to much clearly stated stuff. This is worth more than a vote ATM.[/quote]
All of this, combined with everything that was brought up yesterday, more than merits a Vote ZasZ234
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A fixed deadline doesn't mean we need to rush to get info into the open. It simply means people need to contribute more often and to stop being indecisive (the main reason days go long).
I honestly would like to claim at this point as well, but seeing as how people are calling for a cease on the info dumping I will wait. Just please keep my request in mind.
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Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
While this statement has a possibility of validity, it has at least as much possiblity of invalidity. Plus, the statement 'we'll just feel like complete idiots' seems pretty much 100% unnecessary and unhelpful. I find this to be fearmongering for obvious reasons.
Then he says:
This is totally irrational. Why would people just 'want' to claim the rest of their role? Rarely does anyone ever want to claim, and it only draws suspicion upon them when they do. Beyond that, it's pretty hard to slip-up during a soft-claim. I find this to be fearmongering as well. I mean, who wants to 'slip up during a soft-claim'.
Next:
I wasn't aware that we were necessarily looking for a pattern. Either A)I missed that part of the discussion or B)Pod has made a huge error based upon pre-emptive knowledge.
Lastly,
I don't see what makes this worst case scenario 'perfectly plausible' at all. And again, more fearmongering here. Afterall, no one wants to out their rolename for no apparent reason, right?
I think this you are oversimplifying. I know I'm not aware of any other discussion of patterns. But I don't automatically jump to the conclusion that 'B' has to be my only other option after that. This bit here sets me on edge since everything else in Cyan's post I find myself agreeing with.
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Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
This.
Why do you "want" to claim?
Because I believe it's the best thing to do. Why do you feel the need to fish? I was just letting the town know of my desire.
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Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
I understand if you can't answer this, but do you plan to claim Big Brother tomorrow as well?
I am pretty sure there is a difference between "fishing" and point blank asking you a question.
Labeling it as "fishing" sure is attaching a negative connotation to what seems a completely honest question.
I'm not fishing for your role; far from it. Put it another way, if there is a direct benefit to claiming your role today (built into the role, to counter-claim, to gain an ability, to draw a kill, whatev), by all means do it. But if the only reason you want to claim is to fit in with the claiming-diarrhea that's been happening, then I think that's a lousy reason. And I question your motivation if that's the case.
I don't think it's oversimplifying. No one had said 'we should soft-claim to look for a pattern among the roles'. There is no real reason to assume that there would be a pattern among the roles at all. In particular, I don't think that anyone would assume a pattern among the scum roles, but not others. But that is the angle that Pod took. To me, Pod's statement only makes sense if he knows that such a pattern exists, and wants to discourage it being revealed.
CP: just becuase I made an obsucre reference means I'm scum? It didn't seem like a random vote, so please explain yourself.
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Well, when I believe it has negative undertones, then there's no problem, from my viewpoint, if I use terminology that paints it in a negative light.
I understand you're not role fishing. But you are info fishing. If I just wanted to claim, I could have. I didn't because at least two players have called for a halt to the claiming. I have my reasons, but suffice it to say it's not to following along with the claim train.
Ok, so you're likening his statement to a Freudian slip?
Ok, obscure, or "obsucre" as you say, (btw, would you cream with that?) is about the only thing that your reference isn't. Just to let you know.
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Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
and non, je ne veux pas le creme.
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Quoth the Charm_master.
In what way? I dislike when someone calls something "scummy" without explaining why. Very little is scummy on its own. Context is key, and explaining the context is important so we know what you're thinking. The quoted statement means jack without some more words backing it up.
So is my statement the one getting the :rolleyes:? Or is it directed at Cyan?
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Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
I think the focus was on the use of the word "want."
He wanted to claim.
Also, considering what other people have been saying and my knowledge of my own role, claiming in itself seems to be a mechanic in the roles. So people might have very different reasons for desiring to claim or not to claim, not all of which are necessarily pro-town or anti-town. I'm still trying to figure out the situation, I'll post again when I think I have a better grasp on it.
MTGS stats (won/played)
As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
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Wanted to at the time and still do. Nothing has changed.
I'm not sure how you could misunderstand "want to." I stated I wanted to claim. I still do.
Also as said Cyan said, it's just a name claim, not a full role claim. I believe that's one thing that I didn't mention.
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Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
It's very likely more than that. I see little reason to believe that the roles are in no way related to their flavor. I am sure part of the attraction of a format like this is the puzzle of unentangling the roles, so there is little reason for the flavor if it has no link to the roles. I really do strongly believe that a soft claim will end up being very close to a hard claim for anyone with the perception to figure it all out. So, at least for now, I really do think that a soft claim is a bad idea.
I do find it very interesting that some people have stated that they are supposed to claim certain things, such as Azrael claiming Big Brother today, but strongly implying that such might not be the case tomorrow. My role, and I'm inclined to believe other roles as well, interact in certain ways with that claim. It seems very likely to me that Azrael is not Big Brother, but claiming such is part of the mechanics of his role. Why that claim is necessary, I'm not sure, but figuring out exactly what his goals are with this claim is one of my foremost goals at the moment, primarily because of the strangeness of the way he worded his claim. It's a huge abnormality, and one I'm really surprised has not gotten more attention before now.
MTGS stats (won/played)
As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
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Also, I have already said this, but it's unlikely that people giving away their rolename is going to be a big clue about their role. I know this for a fact, in my own case. I think that people using this line of thought just don't want to claim, and should just say so, or try to provide a reason that hasn't been rebuked already.
There's a role from MTGS Redux that would like to have a word with you outside.
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In your opinion.
In my opinion it's not patently absurd. It's a possibility that may or may not be the case. It is one of several possibilites that are more or less likely then the others of being true. Considering the amount of information we currently have to work with I think it is unwise to completely dismiss anything without solid information to support that dismissal.
I also don't see the wisdom behind a disorganized, and uncontrolled hemorrage of role information. I am normally infavor of mass claims but this one, so far seems very chaotic. There should be a consensus of what is to be claimed and those willing to go along can do so. That way it can be discussed prior to being done and the specific information intended to try to clear townies or constrict/reveal scum can be decided.
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~Tilde~: Niv, DragonDart
Grakthis: charmmaster
Azrael: Pod
cp: ZasZ
ZasZ: DYH
DYH: Grakthis
Pod: Cyan
charmmaster: cp
Post Count
Cyan 8
DYH 7
Grakthis 6
Azrael 6
Vampyr 6
carrion pigeons 5
Cubus 5
JSexton 5
ZasZ234 5
charm master 4
Pod 4
fadeblue 4
Jobie 3
Niv 2
StormBlind 2
~Tilde~ 2
AbbeyGargoyle 2
DragonDart 1
Kraj 1
Wuffles II 1
jerubbaal 1
Hawkeye7 1
Wrath of Dog 0
GiftsTrix 0
In 1 hour, it will be 22 to lynch
Everyone (especially WoD and GiftsTrix) definitely needs to post more. This isn't a game for slackers.
Cyan - The White Witch
Azrael - Big Brother
Vampyr - no claim yet, but really wants to claim.
carrion pigeons - Magua
charm master - The Raven
Dragon Dart - Circe
Against Claim:
DYH 7
Grakthis
Cubus
ZasZ234
Pod
fade blue
StormBlind
Kraj
Jerubbaal
Unknown:
Niv
Wrath of Dog
GiftsTrix
Wuffles II
~Tilde~
Jobie
JSexton
In looking over the thread to make this list and re-reading my role I think that as long as we restrict the claim to names and from them any information that can be gleened regarding the book the name is from, that I am for the soft claim.
My name is Newt Hoenikker.
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Here, Here. And I particularity share Hawk eye's concern with the chaotic nature of this soft claim call. With a time limit to the discussion and end of the day getting into a rush is always going to be a very real possibility, and that rush only helps scum. The only information that seems to being put out there is in reference to the claim, not in reference to other players. All this time and energy is going away from networking/establishing relationships and going towards pro or against name claims. When I say networking, I mean the usual task of wagoning and forcing to claim. Some will defend player X some will attack. The information of who does what and when, and for what reasons, is what kind wind up giving the town information as to who is scum or not. Not always the most reliable but at least information. Scum/Town both have reasons to not want the claim to be made, and the issue of the mass claim is an issue not of how we can currently benefit the town, but a gambit of theory. With such a short time on our hands we need to stick with what we know will work.
In the past 96 posts (including mine) there have been a total of 5 actual votes and no wagon forming. The last vote being on page 54. The rest has been discussion as to whether or not to soft claim, which is taking away from possible wagons. And the discussion itself seems pointless as those who really are in favor of the mass claim have already started without discussion. Haste makes waste.
Sigil: an MMORPCCG ">Mexus: An MMORPCCG
Sigil: an MMORPCCG ">Mexus: An MMORPCCG
Regarding the Azrael thing, I curious what other people think about the claiming Big Brother "today" thing means. I am trying very hard to figure it out, but I really think Abbey has some absurdly wacky roles in this game. Certain claims mean certain things, and that meaning is not always completely apparent.
I don't know how this whole picture comes together, but, unless I'm mistaken, and I could very easily be, being new here, Abbey seems like the kind of person who is fond of intricacy. There is a web around this Big Brother thing, but I don't know where it goes or what it means.
I am unsure of the whole situation, but I will venture a guess that more people will end up claiming Big Brother as this game goes on. I'm willing to bet heavily that it is part of a role function. Whether that function is pro- or anti-town is something we need to figure out.
MTGS stats (won/played)
As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
I'm now writing for Eye of the Vortex, come check out MTG articles and other geek culture
I also moderate the MTG forum, so register (it's free) and voice your thoughts.
MTGS stats (won/played)
As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
I'm now writing for Eye of the Vortex, come check out MTG articles and other geek culture
I also moderate the MTG forum, so register (it's free) and voice your thoughts.
I am Hannibal Lecter.
...
Some fava beans anyone?
Admittedly, this makes those who don't support the claim somewhat suspicious...
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Because they don't think the town should spend its time on a plan that "won't do much"?
You continue to push for this soft claim without providing valid reason to do so.
I think you understood one of my points, also. So far what, 5 people have claimed, most of which claimed rolenames of 'bad guys', with no discernable pattern amongst them. This seems exceedingly relevant, to me.
So, from my perspective, things go as follows, based off of the information that we have so far:
No apparent drawbacks to a rolename claim.
Possibility of benefits of a rolename claim.
Working on a truncated timetable, we need as much information as possible when making decisions. And I seriously, seriously don't think we're still going to want to be discussing things 2 weeks into the day. At that point, a lynch will take like 8 people, which makes it ridiculously easy for people to get mislynched, especially with a 23 person group. We need to make efficient decisions within a week to 10 days, which changes the mindset for the game, IMO.
Anyway, I think people are oversimplifying the situation. Clearly, there are roles in the game that will want claim information, and clearly there are roles in the game that want it hidden. To say that going one way or another on this claim is conclusively good or bad is naive.
The one thing we do know is that some roles will benefit from having claims available. Odds are decent that we have a few information roles on the town side that can offer some insight into players as we go on. Odds are decent that there's an information role of some kind on the scum side, too. Odds are also decent that there are roles that want to keep information hidden - but those roles are far more likely to found on roles with other alignments than town, which is one reason to pursue this. The other is that it has a fair to good chance of aiding the town in lynch decisions.
In other words, the general impact of a soft claim is probably going to be good for the town. That's hardly guaranteed, but I think it's a worthwhile risk.
If people don't want to claim their rolenames, they can certainly claim whatever they feel comfortable with: the book they're from, the third letter of their last name, whether or not they're the doc :P...
What's that? Okay, not that last one, if you please.
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Soft claiming, I think, is a good idea.
I am Satan, from Paradise Lost.
I also think CP has a good point in that it will be much much easier for scum to stay off of wagons entirely if we put them off to the last minute. This would speed the game up significantly though, giving less time to build cases/wagons and find the best lynch possible. The tension between the benefits of having quick days and having long ones is a pretty clever way for Abbey to avert another Matrix-sized mafia thread.
Also,
Cubus:
And the only way we can do that is to stop trying to go along with the soft claim. More people oppose it than support it, and we've already got the possible information; lots of bad guys. (Thought that's probably implied in the opening post where abbey says that good and evil are relative terms....but hey why read that.)
So how about we talk about people now and not theory? Please?
My reads: hardly none. The whole speculation of soft claiming can't really be interpreted as scum or town, unless we want a WIFOM lynch today. And all of the wagons have been ended due to being ignored, so there really isn't much player reaction to read.
Sigil: an MMORPCCG ">Mexus: An MMORPCCG
No, you being 'against' someone else claiming is not understandable at all. What is even less understandable is why you would make such a statement. If you're town, all you've done by your unrealistic opposition is put a big target on both of your heads. Congratulations there.
What I find interesting is that you claim my logic is 'bad logic', but are using the exact same logic, but in reverse.
This is a logical fallacy. If anything, previous games on this site have shown that soft-claims work just fine. They have helped the town win plenty of times. Is there a risk of a Doc getting outed? Only if he is retarded and doesn't just claim something else. It's not like people won't believe him later if he has to say 'I am really the Doc but didn't want to out myself'. I mean honestly, this stuff is common sense.
Don't say 'QFT' when the statement isn't true at all. Feel free to cite some examples of townies loving to claim. If such were the case, I imagine we would see alot more mass-claims. And, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Are you going to back up any of these statements, or at least say something that makes sense? Ever?
No one is 'concentrating' on claims, with the exception of people like you that are just trying to dodge a bullet.
That's what I call a scummy play, if anything. Wow, you hopped on the 'bad boy' bandwagon. Now you can appear to be claiming the same as people that you may know to be town, but still have time to come up with a false-claim that fits the motif. Not impressive.
SB didn't hint at that at all, he 'hinted' that his rolename sucks..and it does. So what if Jerubaal said his soft claim would be harmful? If it's not in the case of anyone that has claimed thus far, or that is willing to claim, I'd say that it's Jerubaal that looks like the liar, here.
All of the roles claimed thus far conclusively prove that people claiming their name is indeed 'acceptable'.
Uh, yeah, FoS: Cyan for ignoring to much clearly stated stuff. This is worth more than a vote ATM.[/quote]
All of this, combined with everything that was brought up yesterday, more than merits a Vote ZasZ234