Actually, I said that there was an aspect of the communications that would be in flavor with the Merovingian. Anyway, it fits, somewhat, but not enough for me to just give Dagger a pass. I'm not really buying Persephone as a role in this game, to be honest. Plus, I only see 3 possibilities, as far as whom could be the Merovingian, and Dagger is definitely one of them. So is Hawkeye. We'll know his fate soon enough. If he comes up as someone else, from my perspective, that puts 50% odds on it being Dagger, with a remote outside possibility for a couple of others.
1) I told the town I protected ATL and It old the town on which days. There is no need to "imply" anything. I did protect ATL.
2) I didn't protect him from a lynch. As evidenced by the fact that he WAS lynched.
Or do you mean "protected" in the sense of I said "don't lynch him!" Yeah. I did. As Cyan noted a while back, I defended him as a claimed power role who proved out an ability. I was not gonna lynch that until there was a good reason to.
Do you really expect anyone to believe you did not know exactly what I meant by protect Atlseal? Or that we would expect you to attempt to defend him to any point that would make you become obviously seen as protecting him beyond the point a hopelessly misguided townie would? That’s the point here Grak. You are too good a player not to have seen Atlseal was scum after the revelation by Xyre. This is the exact same problem I have with Axe. He did the same thing and he is too good a player to have missed that Atlseal was lying. The other point here Grak is if you really were that dense and did believe Atlseal was innocent you would have fought harder to try to keep him from being lynched. Same goes for Axe.
Grak this is just weak.
Yeah, I react to things that are untrue and ignore things that are acknowledged, discussed and KNOWN to be true. Amazing, I know.
You are making my argument for me. You don’t miss things, you pick what you react to. You chose to ignore the obvious fact that Atlseal was scum and you chose to pretend you did not remember saying you felt I should be lynched. Then you lied about it.
I made SEVERAL comments that I did not see the bandwagon, and I spoke openly of having you lynched for the sake of MOVING THE GAME ALONG.
This is true you did both of these things but when I questioned you about it you played stupid and then you lied about it. Now you are overreacting to me pointing these fact out.
WOW. If this were MT, here is the part where I would be severly questioning your intellegince. But since it's not, I will direct EVERYONE on here to read the posts HE7 is quoting and see if in ANY OF THOSE I call him scum or accuse him of being scum. Or, if in any of those there is any indication that I went back and read anything. Or that I clearly said that I think HE7 should be lynched. Because, none of those things are true. They are all fabrications. Blatant fabrications. Like, not even good ones.
you are doing it again Grak. I never said you stated I was scum. You are trying to twist the discussion from my actual words to what you want to argue. I said that you posted several time that I should be lynched. You Played stupid about doing this and then you tried to say I said you voted for me. I did not I said you posted I should be lynched and you denied it. I posted your actual posts to prove the fact that what I said was true and now you are overreacting and trying to misrepresent again what I said. By all means folks read the posts and you will see that I am right.
You have posted no content, done nothing of interest and done nothing to draw ire from me. In other words, you haven't done anything I'd call scummy. You will note, that Axelrod's reaction to you has been IDENTICAL to mine. Go back and look at his comments about you in regards to you as a day kill target on Friday. Note that my comments were long before his, but we both had the same conclusions.
So, are we back to the Axelrod and Grakthis as team mates theory again?
As anyone with a 3rd grade reading comprehension will see, my memory is not selective. What I said is EXACTLY what I told you. I posted REPEATEDLY that I did not agree with the bandwagon on you, then IN YOUR OWN QUOTES THAT YOU PROVIDED FOR US I say that I am willing to see you die if that's what it takes to keep things moving because the game had stangated so badly. Then after that, AS YOU EVEN ADMIT, I once again reiterate that I don't like the wagon on you because you're not standing out as scummy to me.
So, now I ask you... why would you quote a bunch of posts that directly contradict the conclusion you attempt to draw from them? Are you just hoping people won't read what you quoted?
You don’t agree with the bandwagon on me. Even to the degree to say so more then once, But you post three times that I should be a lynch target and now you say the reason for that is to move the game along.
Do you make a habit of lynching players that haven’t registered on you scumdar all game just to move the game along? What is you opinion of the situation the town is in in regards to loosing more town members and the odds of a town victory?
Oh, Grak another nice try. I posted a list of players I think are suspicious, it was you that suggested that You and Axe were being singled out as a team. I even went so far as to group you with Puzzle, not Axe.
Anyway. I hope that after I show up as town people will take a serious look at what I said. This last game day is an excellent example of what I have pointed out. You are all being lead around by more then one Judas Goat. The remaining mafia are most likely just lurking.
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Hawkeye7, shrugging off the hostility of the assembly, has been making a futile attempt to repair some of the damage to the observation deck. He has had his work cut out for him. Bullet holes, rainwater, casings, human and animal blood, shards of glass everywhere, gaping holes in the floor and sides of the building; the past week has not been kind to the Mega City Mall.
Of course, the past week has not been kind to the inhabitants of the mall, either. One in particular appears to resent his treatment.
Abbeygargoyle, his clothing in tatters, his body in flux between golden light and vapor-like transparency, arises from the small crater at the bottom of the tower. He rises towards Hawkeye, who stands near the edge of the window, a look of skepticism on his face.
They stare at one another.
"You can't possibly be real. This is just another trick."
Abbey glares back wordlessly.
"Somehow you found me again, and you put me back in the show. This whole thing has been just another setup, hasn't it? An illusion. Well I'm not buying it anymore."
Abbey eyes Hawkeye suspiciously, glows violently for a few moments, grabs him by the collar, and dropkicks him off the building. He plummets into the crater below, creating a small poof of dust and ash.
Hawkeye7, Truman Burbank, Townie Redecorater, has been killed.
God, it's so frustrating to be so sure someone is scum, and put so much effort into getting them lynched, just to be wrong in the end. I'll be glad to have a couple of days to regroup after Spoon is lynched.
Yeah. That's wonderful. We are just getting played now. No doubt I shall blame the Mod. at the end.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
What do you mean, people do have multiple abilities? Not that I disagree with you, I'm just curious why you came to that conclusion based upon Hawkeye dying.
Anyway, I agree that we should just lynch Spoon and get this day over with. Though I would like for Puzzle to at least name-claim before that happens. Considering that he is the only unnamed person left, this request seems reasonable.
Actually, I said that there was an aspect of the communications that would be in flavor with the Merovingian. Anyway, it fits, somewhat, but not enough for me to just give Dagger a pass. I'm not really buying Persephone as a role in this game, to be honest. Plus, I only see 3 possibilities, as far as whom could be the Merovingian, and Dagger is definitely one of them. So is Hawkeye. We'll know his fate soon enough. If he comes up as someone else, from my perspective, that puts 50% odds on it being Dagger, with a remote outside possibility for a couple of others.
Enlighten me as to who are the others, since you went to all the trouble of partially setting me up as the Merovingian if HE is town.
If you seriously believe I have two different night abilities and could use both at the same time, what is it that is stopping you from looking at those others with a night ability/day ability/no active ability as well?
Also, what is the flavor of my role exactly that you couldn't see it as Persephone's?
What do you mean, people do have multiple abilities? Not that I disagree with you, I'm just curious why you came to that conclusion based upon Hawkeye dying.
Do you really expect anyone to believe you did not know exactly what I meant by protect Atlseal? Or that we would expect you to attempt to defend him to any point that would make you become obviously seen as protecting him beyond the point a hopelessly misguided townie would? That’s the point here Grak. You are too good a player not to have seen Atlseal was scum after the revelation by Xyre. This is the exact same problem I have with Axe. He did the same thing and he is too good a player to have missed that Atlseal was lying. The other point here Grak is if you really were that dense and did believe Atlseal was innocent you would have fought harder to try to keep him from being lynched. Same goes for Axe.
Please. The "you are too good to do X" line is always bogus. It never means anything. Even the best players are wrong sometimes.
I defended ATL on the basis of him being a claimed power role with a proven benefit. And I kept that defense until the moment Xyre's ability showed he was most likely lying. The End. Poking here is stupid, because I don't deny anything regarding my interactions with Atl.
I think you're seriously confused about how that all went down.
Quote from HE7 »
You are making my argument for me. You don’t miss things, you pick what you react to. You chose to ignore the obvious fact that Atlseal was scum and you chose to pretend you did not remember saying you felt I should be lynched. Then you lied about it.
Both of those statements are blatantly false. The very fact that you say things like this are why you're dead. You have/had no idea what was going on in this game.
I react to everthing that matters, and I didn't ignore the obvious fact that ATL was scum. I voted him as soon as Xyre pointed out his lie. And anyone with half a brain knows exactly how I felt about your death. I made it clear I saw no case on you.
Quote from HE7 »
This is true you did both of these things but when I questioned you about it you played stupid and then you lied about it. Now you are overreacting to me pointing these fact out.
You are geniunly dillusional. You should see someone about that.
Quote from HE7 »
you are doing it again Grak. I never said you stated I was scum. You are trying to twist the discussion from my actual words to what you want to argue. I said that you posted several time that I should be lynched. You Played stupid about doing this and then you tried to say I said you voted for me. I did not I said you posted I should be lynched and you denied it. I posted your actual posts to prove the fact that what I said was true and now you are overreacting and trying to misrepresent again what I said. By all means folks read the posts and you will see that I am right.
Apprently, you don't even read your own posts. You should go back and read what you accused me of. You say no less than 3 things here that are just flat out untrue and which you could find out were untrue if you want back and read the things you're referencing.
Quote from HE7 »
You don’t agree with the bandwagon on me. Even to the degree to say so more then once, But you post three times that I should be a lynch target and now you say the reason for that is to move the game along.
Do you make a habit of lynching players that haven’t registered on you scumdar all game just to move the game along? What is you opinion of the situation the town is in in regards to loosing more town members and the odds of a town victory?
No. Again, more things that are just blatantly not true. I am not "now" saying that the reason is to move the game along.. i said it in the post you quoted.
And anyone who actually followed the game could see that the town was hell bent on killing you. And hay, look, we did. Dispite the fact that two of the most high profile participants in this game both said they didn't see the case on you.
So, again, you're spouting things that simply are not reality.
Quote from HE7 »
Oh, Grak another nice try. I posted a list of players I think are suspicious, it was you that suggested that You and Axe were being singled out as a team. I even went so far as to group you with Puzzle, not Axe.
Apparently you couldn't follow what I was saying. The point was that the the things you're accusing me of as scum tells (the parts that are actually true, not the parts you are inventing) are true of Axelrod as well. yet you make no posts at him.
Quote from HE7 »
Anyway. I hope that after I show up as town people will take a serious look at what I said. This last game day is an excellent example of what I have pointed out. You are all being lead around by more then one Judas Goat. The remaining mafia are most likely just lurking.
Well, I hope you've learned something this game. First of all, don't make stupid arguments that don't fit what is happening in the game. People actually are reading things and they know when you make stuff up. Second of all, contribute, post analysis and do re-reads. You died due to lack of participation more than anything else. Sheer laziness and lack of interest. And third of all, try to forumulate your arguments logically. Premise, premise, conclusion, defense. You don't throw out a bunch of facts and hope they say something.
God, it's so frustrating to be so sure someone is scum, and put so much effort into getting them lynched, just to be wrong in the end. I'll be glad to have a couple of days to regroup after Spoon is lynched.
If you and Axelrod are scum, the town never had a chance this game. It's simply too much confirmation for the town to overcome without lots of information roles.
So, I guess at this point, we have to pretend you are townies and go down the list killing the scummiest players.
Clearly, spoon dies. Then it needs to be Alx or Dagger. And frankly, I know I railed against the idea of lynching our masons, but a mason needs to die sometime soon. You just can't risk it for too long especially when we think there are 2 mafia left and an SK left. Like, if spoon is the SK... kinda makes you want to look at the 2 claimed masons especially with them claiming the same drawback as ATL.
Wait... didn't our dead architect make ZDS a tracker? Was that permanent or one shot? Why haven't we heard anything out of him since then about that?
Axel had been totally saying that Hawk and I had to be the cake and flower guys. It didn't make a ton of sense for you or me- Spoon, grak, Axel, cp etc could potentially own night abilities too. Axel is assuming Spoon to be the SK, Grak and cp to be truthful, and obviously doesn't count himself, so I can see where his bogus opinion came from though. Hawkeye coming up town messes with Axelrod's program.
Axel had been totally saying that Hawk and I had to be the cake and flower guys. It didn't make a ton of sense for you or me- Spoon, grak, Axel, cp etc could potentially own night abilities too. Axel is assuming Spoon to be the SK, Grak and cp to be truthful, and obviously doesn't count himself, so I can see where his bogus opinion came from though. Hawkeye coming up town messes with Axelrod's program.
Well, it's still not impossible for the actions to work out in such a way that single scum aren't using multiple Night abilities in the same Night. But it pretty much would mean that (in addition to you, of course) that at least one of the Masons is scum, or the Oracle is scum, or someone with a demonstrated "Day" ability also has a secret Night ability. This last is not totally implausible given that Grak has already claimed he has both. I would probably look there before I looked at people who showed a Night ability already on a Night that Cake and Flowers were going around (Xyre, Alx, Dagger).
Incidentally, this is another reason Grak is full of it. We are totally in danger of losing tomorrow with 3 Mafia left alive, and his list has 2 most likely townies right on top of it, followed by a Mason. Awesome. Totally ignoring the guy who claimed a vague vanilla possibly back-up role who's not Ted but role-playing it anyway dude.
I hope Spoon isn't the SK now. I really do. We can't afford 3 Mafia.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
@Dagger: I just find it unlikely that the role of Persephone is in the game at all. Doesn't make alot of sense. Considering that someone is lying about their claim, you seem likely. In fact, the only real possibilities for the role of the Merovingian are you and Puzzle. There is some outside possibility that it could be Alx, but I highly doubt it. There's even less of an outside chance that the two masons are just bluffing, but I doubt this even more, even though ZDS has been absurdly scummy for the entire game..a mason claim will do that for you.
At any rate, I have a good idea who the rest of the scum are. Spoon is a given, and there are probably 2 others beyond him(it's hard to say whether or not Spoon is the SK...honestly, I'm not really feeling that at all, but I'm sure that he's scum, and that is enough for me).
That brings up another relevant point. I have a question for everyone. Is it worth me laying my suspicions of who the SK is today? Or should we just lynch Spoon, knowing that we are lynching a scum, and worry about the SK tomorrow?
@Dagger: I just find it unlikely that the role of Persephone is in the game at all. Doesn't make alot of sense. Considering that someone is lying about their claim, you seem likely. In fact, the only real possibilities for the role of the Merovingian are you and Puzzle. There is some outside possibility that it could be Alx, but I highly doubt it. There's even less of an outside chance that the two masons are just bluffing, but I doubt this even more, even though ZDS has been absurdly scummy for the entire game..a mason claim will do that for you.
At any rate, I have a good idea who the rest of the scum are. Spoon is a given, and there are probably 2 others beyond him(it's hard to say whether or not Spoon is the SK...honestly, I'm not really feeling that at all, but I'm sure that he's scum, and that is enough for me).
That brings up another relevant point. I have a question for everyone. Is it worth me laying my suspicions of who the SK is today? Or should we just lynch Spoon, knowing that we are lynching a scum, and worry about the SK tomorrow?
Isn't Merovingian the most likely Cake sender? That's pretty much straight out of the movie, right? The only way that this is Dagger is if he's allowed to talk at Night to people he's already added, add a player every Night, and send someone else completely different a RBing cake. I do not believe that.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
If you and Axelrod are scum, the town never had a chance this game. It's simply too much confirmation for the town to overcome without lots of information roles.
So, I guess at this point, we have to pretend you are townies and go down the list killing the scummiest players.
Clearly, spoon dies. Then it needs to be Alx or Dagger. And frankly, I know I railed against the idea of lynching our masons, but a mason needs to die sometime soon. You just can't risk it for too long especially when we think there are 2 mafia left and an SK left. Like, if spoon is the SK... kinda makes you want to look at the 2 claimed masons especially with them claiming the same drawback as ATL.
Wait... didn't our dead architect make ZDS a tracker? Was that permanent or one shot? Why haven't we heard anything out of him since then about that?
Just wanted to call Grak out on this load of hot, stinking pile of feces. Atlseal claimed after ZDS claimed. Good job on trying to make both of us look bad.
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Games finished:17
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Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
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Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
Cyan, dude, do what you like. You're guaranteed to be here tomorrow morning (I think) so say whenever.
Xyre is town, ZDS and Vampyr are town, Cyan and Axelrod are probably not mafia, I read Alx as very town, and if cp's ability is as advertised than he can't be mafia or we're all dead anyway (it wouldn't be broken on an SK though, he could still be that type of heinous dude). And of course I know I'm town.
From my view, that leaves 4 players and probably 3 mafia. Spoon (if he isn't SK, and this dude is not acting like a caught SK, he's acting like he has buddies). Puzzle (duh- I mean, come on, this dude is scummier than bacteria). Grak. Dagger.
I'd say Axel. I think Cyan is less likely to be any kind of scum than Axel is, and he has a less inspiring claim. If they're both scum, then odds are good that Cyan is telling the truth anyway, but Axel might very well be lying.
Unvote. Unless anyone else has a daykill they want to claim, let's finally end this day, please. Can I get a couple people to vote me?
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Did you not read the flavor scene where Axelrod died(but then didn't)? The town already knows that my claimed role is accurate, and by extension, that Axelrod's role is accurate as well. I know someone(RafK) will argue that we could still be some kind of neutrals, but the point here is that forcing one of us to RP accomplishes nothing, because our role-names are already confirmed by the Mod, effectively.
Dagger is probably the best candidate for being forced to RP, or Puzzle, because these two are most likely to be the Merovingian.
Anyway..
@Axel: I don't see why that is unbelievable at all. The night communication bit barely counts as anything, and the ability that we know that Dagger has really is not in character for Persephone. The letter I received, along with the pen that I was given to write back with, are both described with some elegance. To me, this is indicative of the Merovingian. At any rate, if it's not Dagger, it's Puzzle. Everyone else is eliminated, or virtually so, for the following reasons:
Axelrod - Clearly is John Connor.
Cyan - Clearly is John Connor's bodyguard.
ZDS/Vamp - Claimed masons, Choi(or however you spell it) and DuJour. While there is some remote possibility that these two are just gambiting scum, I'm not really feeling it.
Alx - Claims to be the one causing people to RP. No one else has counterclaimed here, so that's fine. Also claims to be Tyler Durden..a claim that I find dubious, at best, but I don't really see why the Merovingian would cause this, nor do I think that Alx is making people RP and sending Cake all at the same time. Plus, as Puzzle pointed out, Alx' initial reaction to Atlseal seemed genuine, making them, as a scum pairing, unlikely.
CP - Claimed Queen of Hearts, with an ability that makes complete sense for that role. I don't think I've felt like a single one of his posts was scummy this game, either.
RafK - Clearly is not the Merovingian, regardless of whatever his real role is(and no, I don't believe the role that he claimed for one second).
Grakthis - Claim of Dr. Merrick is almost surely truthful. The way he prevents daykills, and the 'correction' flavor that Azrael gave us support this.
Xyre - Claimed to be the 'spoonboy', and his ability to give out spoons was verified by both Axel and ZDS. I'm not really seeing any way the Merovingian could give out spoons anyway.
Spoon - Clearly is scum, but also, most likely, is not the Merovingian. Though I did notice that one time he FoSed someone in blue, and another he did so in the normal black. I'm not sure whether or not this means anything.
That only leaves Dagger and Puzzle, with a few remote possibilities amongst those I listed(Spoon and Alx mainly).
As far as the SK, I'd say it's most likely RafK. Not only is his completely and utterly uninspiring. Also, I'm pretty sure he's lying about being Vanilla. I've been thinking about Fade's role alot the last two days, and the notion that it is a temporary ability doesn't make sense. For one thing, when Fade explained the ability, there wasn't the slightest hitch in his explanation. If it was a 1 day thing, he would have known it(nevermind that, if this were the case, he would essentially just be a roleblocker). Plus, he said he targeted Puzzle because he wanted the rotating role to cease. So what then, he was planning on targetting Puzzle everyday for the rest of the game? If so, why would he have targeted Raf? I think it is much more likely that, even if Fade did target Raf, Raf is not vanilla now, and hasn't been all day. I think it wore off when Fade died, and Raf is scum. Most likely, RafK is just lying scum. Whether it's mafia or SK..who knows.
As a stipulation, it is possible that it is Puzzle whom is lying. If the ability is truly a 1 day thing, in my estimation, the time period of effect would have been 2 nights ago, and 1 day ago. Meaning that Puzzle wouldn't have been Vanilla anymore last night(this coincides with the fact that apparently no Cake was sent out on N3, but it was sent out last night). However, I find this possibility less likely than I do that RafK is scum.
I think that it's also possible that Grakthis is scum. He day-protected a known scum for days on end. Then, he targeted..Axelrod? Why? He said it was because he wanted to test Axel's theoretical untargetability, but, this makes no sense at all. Axelrod had already been targeted(and openly stated such) successfully TWICE at that point. In reality, Grakthis protected the person *least* likely to be targeted for an SK kill, and I think it just blew up in his face. I mean honestly, if you're town and you're trying to protect another townie from dying, why do you target someone that A)is highly unlikely to be targeted and B)isn't going to die anyway? Grakthis' actions make no sense whatsoever from a town perspective, but make plenty of sense from a scum perspective. There is also the fact that today, he has suggested that we kill the masons, along with advocating lynches tomorrow on CP and Alx, both of whom are highly likely to be town. Still, of the 5 people that I find to be suspects, Grakthis is the lowest on the list. This is how I see it, in order of most likely to be scum to least:
Spoon(obviously)
RafK
Dagger
Puzzle
Grakthis
Of course, if RafK is scum, then most likely Puzzle is not. Just some stuff for people to think about...this day really can end whenever.
Cyan: Grak's choice of targets is consistent with his claimed opinions, strategies, and role. I'm not saying I think he's clear, but you can't fairly say that his play this game has been scummy. I agree with you that Raf needs to be on the list of targets, though. No way I'm happy letting him get to the endgame.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Everyone always says that, and then I do get to endgame, and then I get totally lynched for bogus reasons because people do not read, CYAN. It sucks.
I said I'm Sarah because I'm Sarah, dude. If I wanted to lie, I'd just say I'm Ted. Maybe I should have just said I'm Ted... saying I'm Sarah gives the scum something to heinously pounce on. But the town needed to know that Alx's ability is not perfecto.
So, what you're saying is, we should just blindly accept your absurd claim of Sarah whatever, instead of trusting what is essentially the only investigative role that we have, right? Right. Hopefully you can see why this isn't that easy for me to go along with. Especially since Alx' ability seems to have worked fine in regard to, say, everyone else that he targeted with it.
@CP: Grak targetting Atlseal was fine. I could have accepted that he just believed Atlseal's claim. But targetting Axelrod today just doesn't make sense, from a town perspective. Not to say that he might not have done it, just that it doesn't make sense as town, but it does make sense as scum. Then, as the town is approaching a critical point in the game, he starts rallying actively..against a bunch of other people that are virtually guaranteed to be town. Grak is at the bottom of my list, but only because the evidence against the others on it seems much more soild to me. But he is definitely a suspect, especially since he keeps trying to ride a claim that doesn't clear him at all. I honestly think his claimed name and day ability make him MORE likely to be mafia, not less so. I mean, the ability stops TOWN kills, but not mafia kills. And the role itself is a 100% bad guy. Hmm, maybe Grak should be moved up the list, there really is alot of evidence against him(including how he tried to run from his support of the HE lynch, once it became obvious that HE would indeed be lynched).
My guess is that Axel is probably John Conner and Cyan is probably the Terminator and that that has no indication of their alignment. Go with Dagger. At the very least, if he's telling the truth, it might make for an amusing Day 6.
Could someone remind me what the flowers do exactly?
I got away with using catchphrases rather than arguments in Sin City. Being able to just say MUUUUD is easier than arguing, am I right dude?
What IS your flavour for speaking to people? And, you know, not being allied to the Merovingian at all?
Too much? It's the first time I use it, dude, and it's an entirely appropriate one and sums it nicely.
Flavorfully speaking, it's roughly around the line of me getting more and more disenchanted and less and less fond of my husband as the years pass by. Getting bored with him, I revel in what I do best, which is socializing.
@Dagger: I just find it unlikely that the role of Persephone is in the game at all. Doesn't make alot of sense. Considering that someone is lying about their claim, you seem likely. In fact, the only real possibilities for the role of the Merovingian are you and Puzzle. There is some outside possibility that it could be Alx, but I highly doubt it. There's even less of an outside chance that the two masons are just bluffing, but I doubt this even more, even though ZDS has been absurdly scummy for the entire game..a mason claim will do that for you.
So, someone like Persephone is unlikely, but things non-Matrix related like Truman, Terminator, Alice and minor characters like Choi, Dujoir, Sarah are likely?
@Axel: I don't see why that is unbelievable at all. The night communication bit barely counts as anything, and the ability that we know that Dagger has really is not in character for Persephone. The letter I received, along with the pen that I was given to write back with, are both described with some elegance. To me, this is indicative of the Merovingian. At any rate, if it's not Dagger, it's Puzzle. Everyone else is eliminated, or virtually so, for the following reasons:
So, Persephone is not someone whom you would call elegant?
Also, of course the night communication thing counts for something, it's the entirety of my ability.
Why would the Merovingian send a socializing letter to a person and an orgasmic cake to a different one every night?
@Xyre: Think it's amusing, don't you, Xyre? Why should I say? Call everyone "my love"?
Everyone always says that, and then I do get to endgame, and then I get totally lynched for bogus reasons because people do not read, CYAN. It sucks.
I said I'm Sarah because I'm Sarah, dude. If I wanted to lie, I'd just say I'm Ted. Maybe I should have just said I'm Ted... saying I'm Sarah gives the scum something to heinously pounce on. But the town needed to know that Alx's ability is not perfecto.
Are you ever going to explain why you are role-playing as "Ted?" You said you got special dispensation from the Mod to do so, but why did you ask for it in the first place?
Xyre: we don't know what the Flowers do. They had no noticable effect the night I got them.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Grak: ZDS said his tracker ability vamoosed when El Jeffe bought it, dude.
Huh. Not sure how I missed that.
Quote from Axelrod »
Incidentally, this is another reason Grak is full of it. We are totally in danger of losing tomorrow with 3 Mafia left alive, and his list has 2 most likely townies right on top of it, followed by a Mason. Awesome. Totally ignoring the guy who claimed a vague vanilla possibly back-up role who's not Ted but role-playing it anyway dude.
I am not IGNORING anything or anyone. I've said repeatedly this game that my read on Raf has been pro-town. Sure, I'm not 100% when I get pro-town reads on people, but I'm well over 80%. It's gonna take physical evidence before you're going to convince me that Raf is scum.
Quote from Axelrod »
I hope Spoon isn't the SK now. I really do. We can't afford 3 Mafia.
Actually, I think Spoon has to be the SK. We have a missing mafia kill. Spoon is the only player who has claimed a role that could have prevented a mafia kill. Unless one of our dead players had something.
Quote from Axelrod »
Isn't Merovingian the most likely Cake sender? That's pretty much straight out of the movie, right? The only way that this is Dagger is if he's allowed to talk at Night to people he's already added, add a player every Night, and send someone else completely different a RBing cake. I do not believe that.
Why not? You saw my lords in Revelstone mafia.
Quote from Vampyre »
Just wanted to call Grak out on this load of hot, stinking pile of feces. Atlseal claimed after ZDS claimed. Good job on trying to make both of us look bad.
Uh... what? I never said you claimed after ATL. I just said you claimed the same drawback. I made no comment on the order of the claims.
Quote from Cyan »
Dagger is probably the best candidate for being forced to RP, or Puzzle, because these two are most likely to be the Merovingian.
Agreed.
Quote from Cyan »
I think that it's also possible that Grakthis is scum. He day-protected a known scum for days on end. Then, he targeted..Axelrod? Why? He said it was because he wanted to test Axel's theoretical untargetability, but, this makes no sense at all. Axelrod had already been targeted(and openly stated such) successfully TWICE at that point.
Wrong. The only person who had openly claimed to have targeted Axelrod AFTER XYRE DID was Dagger, who, surprisingly, was at the top of my scum list.
Quote from Cyan »
Grakthis' actions make no sense whatsoever from a town perspective, but make plenty of sense from a scum perspective.
Ugh. I'd like to say you're smarter than this, but maybe not. How exactly does it make sense for scum to protect a townie?
Quote from Cyan »
Then, as the town is approaching a critical point in the game, he starts rallying actively..against a bunch of other people that are virtually guaranteed to be town.
LOLOLOLOL
Hay, Cyan, is this kinda like hwo HE7 was virtually guaranteed to be scum! GOOD CALL ON THAT ONE, AMIRITE??!?!?! GLAD THE TOWN LISTENED TO YOU INSTEAD OF ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Quote from Cyan »
including how he tried to run from his support of the HE lynch, once it became obvious that HE would indeed be lynched
<--- Never supported the HE7 lynch except on the grounds that the game was stagnating, and I said as much in the game thread.
Announcement: If Axelrod vanishes tonight, or any other night, DO NOT LYNCH CYAN. When I say "vanishes" i do not mean "dies." I mean "vanishes." He will not show up on the dead list and his role will not be revealed. I am saying NOTHING ELSE on this topic. Simply that you MUST NOT lynch Cyan ont he basis that he didn't protect Axelrod or some such.
You know, making people "vanish" is not exactly super-townie looking. In fact, if you are removing a townie body from the game at a rather critical time (for purposes of determining how many it takes to lynch) then it's a decidedly scummy looking thing.
I'm not asking you a question since you are saying NOTHING ELSE on the topic. Just commenting.
But here's a question: What is the flavor or Dr. Merrick being in the Matrix?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Isn't Merovingian the most likely Cake sender? That's pretty much straight out of the movie, right? The only way that this is Dagger is if he's allowed to talk at Night to people he's already added, add a player every Night, and send someone else completely different a RBing cake. I do not believe that.
Yes, the Merovingian sent the cake in the movie
My vote to roleplay is either Grak or the revolving role. Spoon is clearly scum and should be lynched today.After that, RafK's claim stinks of Neo to me (Ted and Sarah Edmonton which is an anagram from Thomas Anderson/Neo) but I haven't been really reading him as scum, its more a hunch than anything.
Like, if spoon is the SK... kinda makes you want to look at the 2 claimed masons especially with them claiming the same drawback as ATL.
You are implying that the claim that ZDS made was patterned off of what atlseal claimed. I'm saying that's not possible as ZDS claimed first, he could not claim the same as atlseal. Since atlseal claimed after ZDS, it's much more likely the lying scum constructed his claim on what he saw. Plus, where is the evidence to support your belief in the scum? Show me the proof or stop alluding to ZDS and I coming up as the best options for the supposed two remaining scum.
My objection is with the order of people in your statement. It can be very deceptive and misleading if read wrong and is a very subtle way to get people to start to believe that ZDS and I are not town.
I believe your actions could be viewed as insidious. Especially when this:
And frankly, I know I railed against the idea of lynching our masons, but a mason needs to die sometime soon. You just can't risk it for too long especially when we think there are 2 mafia left and an SK left.
is included with your reasoning. Because it seems awfully convienent that you start off with your plausible deniablity statement, setting up the possible false scenario of there being two mafia remaining and then closing with connecting the actual mason drawback with the drawback of a scum that you have not provided proof actually exists.
Personally, I think the time is quickly approaching that you need to spill the refried beans about what this ability you supposedly have that turns a mason into Superman. You're already calling for one of us to die. Do you think the other will live much longer past that? The window for these "special circumstances" you need to have happen has got to be fairly small at this point, if it hasn't already slammed shut, been nailed closed and painted over.
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Current Soul Collector count: 184
PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
Matrix Mafia Town MVP
Medieval Mafia Mafia MVP
Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
I sent Azrael a clarification question about my role. Seeing the wording of my PM, it's possible that I can actually target players in Limbo and have it do something useful. Please don't end the day until he clarifies this.
@AG: Wow, how in the world did you figure out that about the anagram, I hadn't even remotely considered that. I mean, I still think RafK is scum and lying about being targeted by Fade, but, w/e.
@AG: I can agree w/ making the revolving role RP, but targeting Grak seems pointless. Regardless of my feelings towards Grak's actions thus far, the ability that he represented, along with the 'flavor correction' provided by Azrael, go pretty far to show that he's telling the truth about being Dr. Merrick.
@Grak: Feel free to explain how me being wrong about Hawkeye suddenly makes you right about attacking a bunch of likely townies and calling for some masons to get killed(especially considering that we would have to lynch them, since we have no other ways to kill people, as far as we know). And saying that you disagreed with the Hawkeye lynch is nonsense. One time, you said 'he didn't trip my scum radar in the first few days'. Repeatedly you called for his lynch, one time using a disclaimer of 'because nothing else is happening'. That's not a good reason to lynch someone, particularly this late in the game. As far as why you targeted Axel..you had to target someone(you clearly thought ZDS could still use his watcher ability, after all), and you certainly couldn't afford to target another scum after protecting Atlseal for days on end. So, you targeted the townie that was least likely to actually get targeted by the SK. I'm not saying this is necessarily what happened, but it is a possibility. Certainly, it makes more sense than 'I wanted to see if Axel was targetable', even though Axel had already been targeted by Dagger AND the flower sender AND ZDS as well.
@Alx: I don't see any reason to target a player in limbo, nor the benefit of it. They can't post, so who cares if they're 'forced to roleplay'. I doubt your ability will bring them out of limbo. We need to resolve this Merovingian issue, and targeting one of Dagger/Puzzle(probably Dagger honestly, considering his claim of Persephone) seems like the best way to accomplish this.
@Alx: I don't see any reason to target a player in limbo, nor the benefit of it. They can't post, so who cares if they're 'forced to roleplay'. I doubt your ability will bring them out of limbo. We need to resolve this Merovingian issue, and targeting one of Dagger/Puzzle(probably Dagger honestly, considering his claim of Persephone) seems like the best way to accomplish this.
That's not the point. The point is, since they do not post at all, they do not post in character, hence they will automatically have to take the penalty.
So, if you think someone in limbo is scum, I can do something about it... anyway, Azrael has to confirm that it works the way I think.
I find it highly, highly unlikely that it would work that way. The fact that they can't post means that they don't have the opportunity to post in character or not, and thus targeting them will accomplish nothing. Azrael will probably not give you a concrete answer one way or the other, because A)you're reaching and B)that is how he is. *Please* don't waste what is essentially our one investigative ability by targeting someone in limbo. We need as much information as humanly possible for tomorrow. Besides, we don't think anyone in limbo is scum anyway, that I'm aware of.
I'd say any of Grak, Dagger, whoever replaces in for Puzzle, or even one of the Masons would be a reasonable choice for Alx. Grak has a role where might be hard to distinguish him from the Merovingian - unless he can say some very specific things like "When I get back to the Island, I'm going to give all those rowdy clones a good talking too...."
Persephone ought to be asking people to kiss her, right?
The Oracle...I don't know. Speaks cryptically? Tells people they've already decided what they are going to do, now they have to figure out why they decided it?
Problem with all of this is Raf being allowed to RP freaking Ted. Does that mean Grak can come out and RP Boromir? Actually, if he could that would seem to confirm him as the same Actor, which would be good. Unless Alx's ability is really useless and can be manipulated by the target.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
You know, making people "vanish" is not exactly super-townie looking. In fact, if you are removing a townie body from the game at a rather critical time (for purposes of determining how many it takes to lynch) then it's a decidedly scummy looking thing.
I'm not asking you a question since you are saying NOTHING ELSE on the topic. Just commenting.
I am fully aware of what you are saying. If you are a townie, the benfits outweigh the costs.
Quote from Axelrod »
But here's a question: What is the flavor or Dr. Merrick being in the Matrix?
None provided. Except, hay, I am here, and I don't like people ****ing up the status quo so I am going to try to stop them.
You are implying that the claim that ZDS made was patterned off of what atlseal claimed. I'm saying that's not possible as ZDS claimed first, he could not claim the same as atlseal. Since atlseal claimed after ZDS, it's much more likely the lying scum constructed his claim on what he saw. Plus, where is the evidence to support your belief in the scum? Show me the proof or stop alluding to ZDS and I coming up as the best options for the supposed two remaining scum.
I wasn't implying anything of the sort. I simply pointed out that you both claimed the same thing as ATL. Period.
My evidence is "hay, 2 claimed masons still alive late in the game when we probably have 2 scum left. We probably need to see one of them dead."
Quote from Vampyr »
My objection is with the order of people in your statement. It can be very deceptive and misleading if read wrong and is a very subtle way to get people to start to believe that ZDS and I are not town.
lolz. OK. Well, you can add any implied meaning you want to any post if you try hard enough.
Quote from Vampyr »
is included with your reasoning. Because it seems awfully convienent that you start off with your plausible deniablity statement, setting up the possible false scenario of there being two mafia remaining and then closing with connecting the actual mason drawback with the drawback of a scum that you have not provided proof actually exists.
If there are more than 2 mafia left, this game was unbalanced. So you'll forgive me if I start with the assumption that Azrael is a good designer.
Quote from Vampyr »
Personally, I think the time is quickly approaching that you need to spill the refried beans about what this ability you supposedly have that turns a mason into Superman. You're already calling for one of us to die. Do you think the other will live much longer past that? The window for these "special circumstances" you need to have happen has got to be fairly small at this point, if it hasn't already slammed shut, been nailed closed and painted over.
I'd say any of Grak, Dagger, whoever replaces in for Puzzle, or even one of the Masons would be a reasonable choice for Alx. Grak has a role where might be hard to distinguish him from the Merovingian - unless he can say some very specific things like "When I get back to the Island, I'm going to give all those rowdy clones a good talking too...."
I am confused here... while I'd be happy to both:
A) Test out who I can RP to help determine Raf's role (like, i can roleplay boromir, for your example).
B) Say soemthing really Merickish so that you can be sure that's my role
I don't know that we get anywhere with that. I mean... you know I'm a dude with a helicopter who can haul people off and that I can clone them who has been laying breadcrumbs about his role and abilities since day 1. Who the hell else could I be?
Actually, you know what, I had another breadcrumb I forgot about. Glad you reminded me.
Sorry about the Quad post. I thought I only had time for one response, then I had time for 2, then I had time for 3... etc. Yeah, **** happens. People should post more in between my posts
@Grak: Feel free to explain how me being wrong about Hawkeye suddenly makes you right about attacking a bunch of likely townies and calling for some masons to get killed(especially considering that we would have to lynch them, since we have no other ways to kill people, as far as we know).
Because they are "likely" townies in your flawed opinion. That's the problem. You think they are likely townies. I do not. We now have a record of you being wrong and me being right. This is not complex.
Quote from Cyan »
And saying that you disagreed with the Hawkeye lynch is nonsense. One time, you said 'he didn't trip my scum radar in the first few days'. Repeatedly you called for his lynch, one time using a disclaimer of 'because nothing else is happening'. That's not a good reason to lynch someone, particularly this late in the game.
You really need to go back and read what I said. If I thought this mattered, I'd go back and show you where I was against the lynch 2-3 times and the only time I ever supported the lynch was with that one caveat. I never "called for his lynch." I called for the game to get moving.
Because, as is demonstrably true, people in this game were determined to see him die no matter what else was going on.
Quote from Cyan »
As far as why you targeted Axel..you had to target someone(you clearly thought ZDS could still use his watcher ability, after all), and you certainly couldn't afford to target another scum after protecting Atlseal for days on end. So, you targeted the townie that was least likely to actually get targeted by the SK. I'm not saying this is necessarily what happened, but it is a possibility. Certainly, it makes more sense than 'I wanted to see if Axel was targetable', even though Axel had already been targeted by Dagger AND the flower sender AND ZDS as well.
lol.
Your reason for why I couldn't, as scum, have protected another scum, is completely retarded. So what if the watcher sees me protecting someone else? How is that in any way bad for me? ZDS is gonna say "OMG! GRAK PROTECTED RAF!" So? That doesn't mean anything.
And no, it doesn't make more sense than "I wanted to see if Axel was targetable." Because, I actually discussed targeting Axelrod the DAY BEFORE. I have already linked to that post, and someone else even suggested it.
Again, you disagreeing with my decision <> the decision is implausible. You and I don't agree much. Just because you don't like my logic doesn't mean the logic didn't occur.
Both masons are just going to have to adopt the Agent Smith avatar tomorrow and deal with it. Yes, they won't be able to vote. They also won't be able to be speedlynched by scum while the town sits by helplessly, either. Acceptable trade. If one of them is actually scum, this works out even better for us.
The fact that RafK seems to be Neo, but decided to instead roleplay as Ted, makes him even more suspicious in my mind. If Spoon isn't the SK, I'd say Raf is suspect #1 for that role.
For now, we really need to just lynch Spoon and go from there. My guess is that he is going to come up scum, but, not the SK, which is fine. The mason thing worries me enough that I think I would rather lynch mafia than the SK at this point, and worry about the SK tomorrow.
I'm disappointed that Puzzle hasn't answered my question regarding his role, as I do think it would be helpful for the town to know. And again, I see no reason for Alx to target anyone other than Puzzle or Dagger, especially as long as the masons agree to adopt the Agent Smith avatar.
Here's the thing Grak. You kind of deserve to get lynched for being such a pompus ass. The idea that you could sit there with a straight face and say "I was right about Hawkeye, I am the amazingest Mafia player evah!!!!" when you did absolutely nothing to prevent his demise, is so mind-bogglingly self-centered it's borderline delusional.
It's like, I don't mind losing. But heck if I'm going to lose to someone who is being so unpleasant. If we didn't lynch you and you were scum, I'd be extremely pissed. I'd rather make the mistake the other way and have you be pissed at being lynched when you were town for acting like a ****.
Your assuption that there can only be 2 Mafia left is an extremely poor and dangerous one to make. In a 24 players game (not counting people in "Limbo") I would assume at least 5 to start. Putting aside Azrael's other game which had something like 8 scum or potential scum in a 23 player game.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Azrael responded, and it does work the way I thought it did. If a player doesn't post at all (because he's not allowed to post, or for any other reason), then he's not "roleplaying properly", and if he's not roleplaying properly, the penalty will apply.
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Cyan, Axelrod, dudes: You guys said Dagger's communications didn't seem like they come from the heinous Merovingian. Does this fit?
Do you really expect anyone to believe you did not know exactly what I meant by protect Atlseal? Or that we would expect you to attempt to defend him to any point that would make you become obviously seen as protecting him beyond the point a hopelessly misguided townie would? That’s the point here Grak. You are too good a player not to have seen Atlseal was scum after the revelation by Xyre. This is the exact same problem I have with Axe. He did the same thing and he is too good a player to have missed that Atlseal was lying. The other point here Grak is if you really were that dense and did believe Atlseal was innocent you would have fought harder to try to keep him from being lynched. Same goes for Axe.
Grak this is just weak.
You are making my argument for me. You don’t miss things, you pick what you react to. You chose to ignore the obvious fact that Atlseal was scum and you chose to pretend you did not remember saying you felt I should be lynched. Then you lied about it.
This is true you did both of these things but when I questioned you about it you played stupid and then you lied about it. Now you are overreacting to me pointing these fact out.
you are doing it again Grak. I never said you stated I was scum. You are trying to twist the discussion from my actual words to what you want to argue. I said that you posted several time that I should be lynched. You Played stupid about doing this and then you tried to say I said you voted for me. I did not I said you posted I should be lynched and you denied it. I posted your actual posts to prove the fact that what I said was true and now you are overreacting and trying to misrepresent again what I said. By all means folks read the posts and you will see that I am right.
You don’t agree with the bandwagon on me. Even to the degree to say so more then once, But you post three times that I should be a lynch target and now you say the reason for that is to move the game along.
Do you make a habit of lynching players that haven’t registered on you scumdar all game just to move the game along? What is you opinion of the situation the town is in in regards to loosing more town members and the odds of a town victory?
Oh, Grak another nice try. I posted a list of players I think are suspicious, it was you that suggested that You and Axe were being singled out as a team. I even went so far as to group you with Puzzle, not Axe.
Anyway. I hope that after I show up as town people will take a serious look at what I said. This last game day is an excellent example of what I have pointed out. You are all being lead around by more then one Judas Goat. The remaining mafia are most likely just lurking.
Calvin & Hobbs Mafia, Mafia MVP
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Simpson's Mafia - best use of character
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Mythos Mafia: the Dunwich Massacre Town MVP
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Werewolf Mafia - Mafia MVP
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Of course, the past week has not been kind to the inhabitants of the mall, either. One in particular appears to resent his treatment.
Abbeygargoyle, his clothing in tatters, his body in flux between golden light and vapor-like transparency, arises from the small crater at the bottom of the tower. He rises towards Hawkeye, who stands near the edge of the window, a look of skepticism on his face.
They stare at one another.
"You can't possibly be real. This is just another trick."
Abbey glares back wordlessly.
"Somehow you found me again, and you put me back in the show. This whole thing has been just another setup, hasn't it? An illusion. Well I'm not buying it anymore."
Abbey eyes Hawkeye suspiciously, glows violently for a few moments, grabs him by the collar, and dropkicks him off the building. He plummets into the crater below, creating a small poof of dust and ash.
Hawkeye7, Truman Burbank, Townie Redecorater, has been killed.
---
Vote Count 4.0
1 Grakthis-CP
4 Spoon-Grakthis, Cyan, Alx2, Rafk
1 Xyre-Spoon
6 Not Voting-Dagger, Xyre, ZDS, Axelrod, Puzzle, Vampyr
With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
And this day was looking so good. At least we KNOW Spoon is heinous, so we get a happy ending.
But, like, whoa Axelrod. I guess that means that people do have multiple abilities, dude.
Can we just lynch Spoon now before anyone else gets into trouble?
Anyway, I agree that we should just lynch Spoon and get this day over with. Though I would like for Puzzle to at least name-claim before that happens. Considering that he is the only unnamed person left, this request seems reasonable.
Enlighten me as to who are the others, since you went to all the trouble of partially setting me up as the Merovingian if HE is town.
If you seriously believe I have two different night abilities and could use both at the same time, what is it that is stopping you from looking at those others with a night ability/day ability/no active ability as well?
Also, what is the flavor of my role exactly that you couldn't see it as Persephone's?
He was trying to cast more mud of course.
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
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Please. The "you are too good to do X" line is always bogus. It never means anything. Even the best players are wrong sometimes.
I defended ATL on the basis of him being a claimed power role with a proven benefit. And I kept that defense until the moment Xyre's ability showed he was most likely lying. The End. Poking here is stupid, because I don't deny anything regarding my interactions with Atl.
I think you're seriously confused about how that all went down.
Both of those statements are blatantly false. The very fact that you say things like this are why you're dead. You have/had no idea what was going on in this game.
I react to everthing that matters, and I didn't ignore the obvious fact that ATL was scum. I voted him as soon as Xyre pointed out his lie. And anyone with half a brain knows exactly how I felt about your death. I made it clear I saw no case on you.
You are geniunly dillusional. You should see someone about that.
Apprently, you don't even read your own posts. You should go back and read what you accused me of. You say no less than 3 things here that are just flat out untrue and which you could find out were untrue if you want back and read the things you're referencing.
No. Again, more things that are just blatantly not true. I am not "now" saying that the reason is to move the game along.. i said it in the post you quoted.
And anyone who actually followed the game could see that the town was hell bent on killing you. And hay, look, we did. Dispite the fact that two of the most high profile participants in this game both said they didn't see the case on you.
So, again, you're spouting things that simply are not reality.
Apparently you couldn't follow what I was saying. The point was that the the things you're accusing me of as scum tells (the parts that are actually true, not the parts you are inventing) are true of Axelrod as well. yet you make no posts at him.
Well, I hope you've learned something this game. First of all, don't make stupid arguments that don't fit what is happening in the game. People actually are reading things and they know when you make stuff up. Second of all, contribute, post analysis and do re-reads. You died due to lack of participation more than anything else. Sheer laziness and lack of interest. And third of all, try to forumulate your arguments logically. Premise, premise, conclusion, defense. You don't throw out a bunch of facts and hope they say something.
If you and Axelrod are scum, the town never had a chance this game. It's simply too much confirmation for the town to overcome without lots of information roles.
So, I guess at this point, we have to pretend you are townies and go down the list killing the scummiest players.
Clearly, spoon dies. Then it needs to be Alx or Dagger. And frankly, I know I railed against the idea of lynching our masons, but a mason needs to die sometime soon. You just can't risk it for too long especially when we think there are 2 mafia left and an SK left. Like, if spoon is the SK... kinda makes you want to look at the 2 claimed masons especially with them claiming the same drawback as ATL.
Wait... didn't our dead architect make ZDS a tracker? Was that permanent or one shot? Why haven't we heard anything out of him since then about that?
You like that line too much, dude.
I got away with using catchphrases rather than arguments in Sin City. Being able to just say MUUUUD is easier than arguing, am I right dude?
What IS your flavour for speaking to people? And, you know, not being allied to the Merovingian at all?
Well, it's still not impossible for the actions to work out in such a way that single scum aren't using multiple Night abilities in the same Night. But it pretty much would mean that (in addition to you, of course) that at least one of the Masons is scum, or the Oracle is scum, or someone with a demonstrated "Day" ability also has a secret Night ability. This last is not totally implausible given that Grak has already claimed he has both. I would probably look there before I looked at people who showed a Night ability already on a Night that Cake and Flowers were going around (Xyre, Alx, Dagger).
Incidentally, this is another reason Grak is full of it. We are totally in danger of losing tomorrow with 3 Mafia left alive, and his list has 2 most likely townies right on top of it, followed by a Mason. Awesome. Totally ignoring the guy who claimed a vague vanilla possibly back-up role who's not Ted but role-playing it anyway dude.
I hope Spoon isn't the SK now. I really do. We can't afford 3 Mafia.
At any rate, I have a good idea who the rest of the scum are. Spoon is a given, and there are probably 2 others beyond him(it's hard to say whether or not Spoon is the SK...honestly, I'm not really feeling that at all, but I'm sure that he's scum, and that is enough for me).
That brings up another relevant point. I have a question for everyone. Is it worth me laying my suspicions of who the SK is today? Or should we just lynch Spoon, knowing that we are lynching a scum, and worry about the SK tomorrow?
Isn't Merovingian the most likely Cake sender? That's pretty much straight out of the movie, right? The only way that this is Dagger is if he's allowed to talk at Night to people he's already added, add a player every Night, and send someone else completely different a RBing cake. I do not believe that.
Just wanted to call Grak out on this load of hot, stinking pile of feces. Atlseal claimed after ZDS claimed. Good job on trying to make both of us look bad.
PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
Matrix Mafia Town MVP
Medieval Mafia Mafia MVP
Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
Cyan, dude, do what you like. You're guaranteed to be here tomorrow morning (I think) so say whenever.
Xyre is town, ZDS and Vampyr are town, Cyan and Axelrod are probably not mafia, I read Alx as very town, and if cp's ability is as advertised than he can't be mafia or we're all dead anyway (it wouldn't be broken on an SK though, he could still be that type of heinous dude). And of course I know I'm town.
From my view, that leaves 4 players and probably 3 mafia. Spoon (if he isn't SK, and this dude is not acting like a caught SK, he's acting like he has buddies). Puzzle (duh- I mean, come on, this dude is scummier than bacteria). Grak. Dagger.
Barrel. Fish. Shoot, dudes.
Should we vote on who is made to roleplay by Alx?
I'm tempted to say Cyan. Not only for the irritation factor, but it would let the town know if his claimed role is accurate.
PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
Matrix Mafia Town MVP
Medieval Mafia Mafia MVP
Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
Unvote. Unless anyone else has a daykill they want to claim, let's finally end this day, please. Can I get a couple people to vote me?
Mafia MVP BM Mafia
Mafia MVP Matrix Mafia
Dagger is probably the best candidate for being forced to RP, or Puzzle, because these two are most likely to be the Merovingian.
Anyway..
@Axel: I don't see why that is unbelievable at all. The night communication bit barely counts as anything, and the ability that we know that Dagger has really is not in character for Persephone. The letter I received, along with the pen that I was given to write back with, are both described with some elegance. To me, this is indicative of the Merovingian. At any rate, if it's not Dagger, it's Puzzle. Everyone else is eliminated, or virtually so, for the following reasons:
Axelrod - Clearly is John Connor.
Cyan - Clearly is John Connor's bodyguard.
ZDS/Vamp - Claimed masons, Choi(or however you spell it) and DuJour. While there is some remote possibility that these two are just gambiting scum, I'm not really feeling it.
Alx - Claims to be the one causing people to RP. No one else has counterclaimed here, so that's fine. Also claims to be Tyler Durden..a claim that I find dubious, at best, but I don't really see why the Merovingian would cause this, nor do I think that Alx is making people RP and sending Cake all at the same time. Plus, as Puzzle pointed out, Alx' initial reaction to Atlseal seemed genuine, making them, as a scum pairing, unlikely.
CP - Claimed Queen of Hearts, with an ability that makes complete sense for that role. I don't think I've felt like a single one of his posts was scummy this game, either.
RafK - Clearly is not the Merovingian, regardless of whatever his real role is(and no, I don't believe the role that he claimed for one second).
Grakthis - Claim of Dr. Merrick is almost surely truthful. The way he prevents daykills, and the 'correction' flavor that Azrael gave us support this.
Xyre - Claimed to be the 'spoonboy', and his ability to give out spoons was verified by both Axel and ZDS. I'm not really seeing any way the Merovingian could give out spoons anyway.
Spoon - Clearly is scum, but also, most likely, is not the Merovingian. Though I did notice that one time he FoSed someone in blue, and another he did so in the normal black. I'm not sure whether or not this means anything.
That only leaves Dagger and Puzzle, with a few remote possibilities amongst those I listed(Spoon and Alx mainly).
As far as the SK, I'd say it's most likely RafK. Not only is his completely and utterly uninspiring. Also, I'm pretty sure he's lying about being Vanilla. I've been thinking about Fade's role alot the last two days, and the notion that it is a temporary ability doesn't make sense. For one thing, when Fade explained the ability, there wasn't the slightest hitch in his explanation. If it was a 1 day thing, he would have known it(nevermind that, if this were the case, he would essentially just be a roleblocker). Plus, he said he targeted Puzzle because he wanted the rotating role to cease. So what then, he was planning on targetting Puzzle everyday for the rest of the game? If so, why would he have targeted Raf? I think it is much more likely that, even if Fade did target Raf, Raf is not vanilla now, and hasn't been all day. I think it wore off when Fade died, and Raf is scum. Most likely, RafK is just lying scum. Whether it's mafia or SK..who knows.
As a stipulation, it is possible that it is Puzzle whom is lying. If the ability is truly a 1 day thing, in my estimation, the time period of effect would have been 2 nights ago, and 1 day ago. Meaning that Puzzle wouldn't have been Vanilla anymore last night(this coincides with the fact that apparently no Cake was sent out on N3, but it was sent out last night). However, I find this possibility less likely than I do that RafK is scum.
I think that it's also possible that Grakthis is scum. He day-protected a known scum for days on end. Then, he targeted..Axelrod? Why? He said it was because he wanted to test Axel's theoretical untargetability, but, this makes no sense at all. Axelrod had already been targeted(and openly stated such) successfully TWICE at that point. In reality, Grakthis protected the person *least* likely to be targeted for an SK kill, and I think it just blew up in his face. I mean honestly, if you're town and you're trying to protect another townie from dying, why do you target someone that A)is highly unlikely to be targeted and B)isn't going to die anyway? Grakthis' actions make no sense whatsoever from a town perspective, but make plenty of sense from a scum perspective. There is also the fact that today, he has suggested that we kill the masons, along with advocating lynches tomorrow on CP and Alx, both of whom are highly likely to be town. Still, of the 5 people that I find to be suspects, Grakthis is the lowest on the list. This is how I see it, in order of most likely to be scum to least:
Spoon(obviously)
RafK
Dagger
Puzzle
Grakthis
Of course, if RafK is scum, then most likely Puzzle is not. Just some stuff for people to think about...this day really can end whenever.
Mafia MVP BM Mafia
Mafia MVP Matrix Mafia
I said I'm Sarah because I'm Sarah, dude. If I wanted to lie, I'd just say I'm Ted. Maybe I should have just said I'm Ted... saying I'm Sarah gives the scum something to heinously pounce on. But the town needed to know that Alx's ability is not perfecto.
@CP: Grak targetting Atlseal was fine. I could have accepted that he just believed Atlseal's claim. But targetting Axelrod today just doesn't make sense, from a town perspective. Not to say that he might not have done it, just that it doesn't make sense as town, but it does make sense as scum. Then, as the town is approaching a critical point in the game, he starts rallying actively..against a bunch of other people that are virtually guaranteed to be town. Grak is at the bottom of my list, but only because the evidence against the others on it seems much more soild to me. But he is definitely a suspect, especially since he keeps trying to ride a claim that doesn't clear him at all. I honestly think his claimed name and day ability make him MORE likely to be mafia, not less so. I mean, the ability stops TOWN kills, but not mafia kills. And the role itself is a 100% bad guy. Hmm, maybe Grak should be moved up the list, there really is alot of evidence against him(including how he tried to run from his support of the HE lynch, once it became obvious that HE would indeed be lynched).
Could someone remind me what the flowers do exactly?
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Too much? It's the first time I use it, dude, and it's an entirely appropriate one and sums it nicely.
Flavorfully speaking, it's roughly around the line of me getting more and more disenchanted and less and less fond of my husband as the years pass by. Getting bored with him, I revel in what I do best, which is socializing.
So, someone like Persephone is unlikely, but things non-Matrix related like Truman, Terminator, Alice and minor characters like Choi, Dujoir, Sarah are likely?
So, Persephone is not someone whom you would call elegant?
Also, of course the night communication thing counts for something, it's the entirety of my ability.
Why would the Merovingian send a socializing letter to a person and an orgasmic cake to a different one every night?
@Xyre: Think it's amusing, don't you, Xyre? Why should I say? Call everyone "my love"?
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
Are you ever going to explain why you are role-playing as "Ted?" You said you got special dispensation from the Mod to do so, but why did you ask for it in the first place?
Xyre: we don't know what the Flowers do. They had no noticable effect the night I got them.
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
And it would probably be the first ever Mafia Makeout Session.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
*Dagger pukes*
And what exactly is its storyline?
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
Huh. Not sure how I missed that.
I am not IGNORING anything or anyone. I've said repeatedly this game that my read on Raf has been pro-town. Sure, I'm not 100% when I get pro-town reads on people, but I'm well over 80%. It's gonna take physical evidence before you're going to convince me that Raf is scum.
Actually, I think Spoon has to be the SK. We have a missing mafia kill. Spoon is the only player who has claimed a role that could have prevented a mafia kill. Unless one of our dead players had something.
Why not? You saw my lords in Revelstone mafia.
Uh... what? I never said you claimed after ATL. I just said you claimed the same drawback. I made no comment on the order of the claims.
Agreed.
Wrong. The only person who had openly claimed to have targeted Axelrod AFTER XYRE DID was Dagger, who, surprisingly, was at the top of my scum list.
Ugh. I'd like to say you're smarter than this, but maybe not. How exactly does it make sense for scum to protect a townie?
LOLOLOLOL
Hay, Cyan, is this kinda like hwo HE7 was virtually guaranteed to be scum! GOOD CALL ON THAT ONE, AMIRITE??!?!?! GLAD THE TOWN LISTENED TO YOU INSTEAD OF ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<--- Never supported the HE7 lynch except on the grounds that the game was stagnating, and I said as much in the game thread.
Announcement: If Axelrod vanishes tonight, or any other night, DO NOT LYNCH CYAN. When I say "vanishes" i do not mean "dies." I mean "vanishes." He will not show up on the dead list and his role will not be revealed. I am saying NOTHING ELSE on this topic. Simply that you MUST NOT lynch Cyan ont he basis that he didn't protect Axelrod or some such.
I'm not asking you a question since you are saying NOTHING ELSE on the topic. Just commenting.
But here's a question: What is the flavor or Dr. Merrick being in the Matrix?
Yes, the Merovingian sent the cake in the movie
My vote to roleplay is either Grak or the revolving role. Spoon is clearly scum and should be lynched today.After that, RafK's claim stinks of Neo to me (Ted and Sarah Edmonton which is an anagram from Thomas Anderson/Neo) but I haven't been really reading him as scum, its more a hunch than anything.
True, you never explictly stated a claim order. But when you make the comment of:
You are implying that the claim that ZDS made was patterned off of what atlseal claimed. I'm saying that's not possible as ZDS claimed first, he could not claim the same as atlseal. Since atlseal claimed after ZDS, it's much more likely the lying scum constructed his claim on what he saw. Plus, where is the evidence to support your belief in the scum? Show me the proof or stop alluding to ZDS and I coming up as the best options for the supposed two remaining scum.
My objection is with the order of people in your statement. It can be very deceptive and misleading if read wrong and is a very subtle way to get people to start to believe that ZDS and I are not town.
I believe your actions could be viewed as insidious. Especially when this:
is included with your reasoning. Because it seems awfully convienent that you start off with your plausible deniablity statement, setting up the possible false scenario of there being two mafia remaining and then closing with connecting the actual mason drawback with the drawback of a scum that you have not provided proof actually exists.
Personally, I think the time is quickly approaching that you need to spill the refried beans about what this ability you supposedly have that turns a mason into Superman. You're already calling for one of us to die. Do you think the other will live much longer past that? The window for these "special circumstances" you need to have happen has got to be fairly small at this point, if it hasn't already slammed shut, been nailed closed and painted over.
PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
Matrix Mafia Town MVP
Medieval Mafia Mafia MVP
Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
@AG: I can agree w/ making the revolving role RP, but targeting Grak seems pointless. Regardless of my feelings towards Grak's actions thus far, the ability that he represented, along with the 'flavor correction' provided by Azrael, go pretty far to show that he's telling the truth about being Dr. Merrick.
@Grak: Feel free to explain how me being wrong about Hawkeye suddenly makes you right about attacking a bunch of likely townies and calling for some masons to get killed(especially considering that we would have to lynch them, since we have no other ways to kill people, as far as we know). And saying that you disagreed with the Hawkeye lynch is nonsense. One time, you said 'he didn't trip my scum radar in the first few days'. Repeatedly you called for his lynch, one time using a disclaimer of 'because nothing else is happening'. That's not a good reason to lynch someone, particularly this late in the game. As far as why you targeted Axel..you had to target someone(you clearly thought ZDS could still use his watcher ability, after all), and you certainly couldn't afford to target another scum after protecting Atlseal for days on end. So, you targeted the townie that was least likely to actually get targeted by the SK. I'm not saying this is necessarily what happened, but it is a possibility. Certainly, it makes more sense than 'I wanted to see if Axel was targetable', even though Axel had already been targeted by Dagger AND the flower sender AND ZDS as well.
@Alx: I don't see any reason to target a player in limbo, nor the benefit of it. They can't post, so who cares if they're 'forced to roleplay'. I doubt your ability will bring them out of limbo. We need to resolve this Merovingian issue, and targeting one of Dagger/Puzzle(probably Dagger honestly, considering his claim of Persephone) seems like the best way to accomplish this.
That's not the point. The point is, since they do not post at all, they do not post in character, hence they will automatically have to take the penalty.
So, if you think someone in limbo is scum, I can do something about it... anyway, Azrael has to confirm that it works the way I think.
Persephone ought to be asking people to kiss her, right?
The Oracle...I don't know. Speaks cryptically? Tells people they've already decided what they are going to do, now they have to figure out why they decided it?
Problem with all of this is Raf being allowed to RP freaking Ted. Does that mean Grak can come out and RP Boromir? Actually, if he could that would seem to confirm him as the same Actor, which would be good. Unless Alx's ability is really useless and can be manipulated by the target.
I am fully aware of what you are saying. If you are a townie, the benfits outweigh the costs.
None provided. Except, hay, I am here, and I don't like people ****ing up the status quo so I am going to try to stop them.
I wasn't implying anything of the sort. I simply pointed out that you both claimed the same thing as ATL. Period.
My evidence is "hay, 2 claimed masons still alive late in the game when we probably have 2 scum left. We probably need to see one of them dead."
lolz. OK. Well, you can add any implied meaning you want to any post if you try hard enough.
If there are more than 2 mafia left, this game was unbalanced. So you'll forgive me if I start with the assumption that Azrael is a good designer.
Nope.
I am confused here... while I'd be happy to both:
A) Test out who I can RP to help determine Raf's role (like, i can roleplay boromir, for your example).
B) Say soemthing really Merickish so that you can be sure that's my role
I don't know that we get anywhere with that. I mean... you know I'm a dude with a helicopter who can haul people off and that I can clone them who has been laying breadcrumbs about his role and abilities since day 1. Who the hell else could I be?
Actually, you know what, I had another breadcrumb I forgot about. Glad you reminded me.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=2080665&highlight=The+Island#post2080665
Note my capitalization of "The Island" in that post.
Anyways,
Because they are "likely" townies in your flawed opinion. That's the problem. You think they are likely townies. I do not. We now have a record of you being wrong and me being right. This is not complex.
You really need to go back and read what I said. If I thought this mattered, I'd go back and show you where I was against the lynch 2-3 times and the only time I ever supported the lynch was with that one caveat. I never "called for his lynch." I called for the game to get moving.
Because, as is demonstrably true, people in this game were determined to see him die no matter what else was going on.
lol.
Your reason for why I couldn't, as scum, have protected another scum, is completely retarded. So what if the watcher sees me protecting someone else? How is that in any way bad for me? ZDS is gonna say "OMG! GRAK PROTECTED RAF!" So? That doesn't mean anything.
And no, it doesn't make more sense than "I wanted to see if Axel was targetable." Because, I actually discussed targeting Axelrod the DAY BEFORE. I have already linked to that post, and someone else even suggested it.
Again, you disagreeing with my decision <> the decision is implausible. You and I don't agree much. Just because you don't like my logic doesn't mean the logic didn't occur.
The fact that RafK seems to be Neo, but decided to instead roleplay as Ted, makes him even more suspicious in my mind. If Spoon isn't the SK, I'd say Raf is suspect #1 for that role.
For now, we really need to just lynch Spoon and go from there. My guess is that he is going to come up scum, but, not the SK, which is fine. The mason thing worries me enough that I think I would rather lynch mafia than the SK at this point, and worry about the SK tomorrow.
I'm disappointed that Puzzle hasn't answered my question regarding his role, as I do think it would be helpful for the town to know. And again, I see no reason for Alx to target anyone other than Puzzle or Dagger, especially as long as the masons agree to adopt the Agent Smith avatar.
It's like, I don't mind losing. But heck if I'm going to lose to someone who is being so unpleasant. If we didn't lynch you and you were scum, I'd be extremely pissed. I'd rather make the mistake the other way and have you be pissed at being lynched when you were town for acting like a ****.
Your assuption that there can only be 2 Mafia left is an extremely poor and dangerous one to make. In a 24 players game (not counting people in "Limbo") I would assume at least 5 to start. Putting aside Azrael's other game which had something like 8 scum or potential scum in a 23 player game.