Ok, the only way I see this comment making any sense, is if you are telling me Cyan is dumb.
Because this role would not be hard at ALL to fabricate. Especially not in pieces.
I have absolutly NO idea where you are coming from with this.
Please fabricate for me Cyan's hypothetical scum role PM.
Then look at what you wrote and compare it to what he has claimed.
Ask yourself what underlying assumptions the claim entails.
Then examine it in light of all information currently available.
Then ask yourself if it makes any sense.
If your answer if "Yes," by all means, come back and share it with us. I would like to see that hypothetical role PM. I haven't come up with a good one yet.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Xyre, how do you think you've been playing this game, in general? Be as honest as you can.
I think I gave up a few hundred posts ago because I think my trumps are good enough to make up for this day and give me an opportunity to play better tomorrow. That's about as honest as it gets.
Please fabricate for me Cyan's hypothetical scum role PM.
Then look at what you wrote and compare it to what he has claimed.
Ask yourself what underlying assumptions the claim entails.
Then examine it in light of all information currently available.
Then ask yourself if it makes any sense.
If your answer if "Yes," by all means, come back and share it with us. I would like to see that hypothetical role PM. I haven't come up with a good one yet.
Ummmm.....is this so hard to imagine?
Quote from a possible role pm for cyan »
T800 (Neutral)- You have to kill John Connors, role xxxx, and role yyyy (Where the other 2 roles were also from the movie). Each night you may nightkill.
You're tough to kill, so you will survive the first attempt made on your life (as a skeleton/frame).
You win when those players are eliminated and if you survive until the end of the game.
that's the one in my mind, especially as dyh has claimed another terminator role....it'd essentially be LJ's role from sin city, but with an extra life and less targets to kill.
Or he could be double life mafia member who knows that John Connor is in the game, like JC Superstar's mafia reporter role from sin city.
Are these that unlikely to you?
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Or he could be double life mafia member who knows that John Connor is in the game, like JC Superstar's mafia reporter role from sin city.
Are these that unlikely to you?
Right, except for the part where he's completely and totally exposed if John Conners shows up dead. If anyone kills him - mafia, vig. SK, anyone? And this completely aside from the fact that he has to kill him himself according to this PM. Would you claim automatic BG for a role you had to kill to win?
Try again?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Please fabricate for me Cyan's hypothetical scum role PM.
It's easy. All it needs to do is mention that John Connor is in the game and Cyan can make up first that he's John Connor's bodyguard (remembering he first claimed just to be a bodyguard and to know JC is in the game- the amendment to being a bodyguard who can only protect John Connor came later), then later that he has a double life. It could be a mafia PM, serial killer PM, "neutral hitman" PM and still make plenty of sense. It makes even more sense if Cyan's role requires him to find John Connor, but that's not actually necessary. He could just be trying to use his knowledge to buddy up to a character he believes is townie.
Unless, Mr Axelrod, you happen to know the scum group and know that a Terminator character is not in it?
Right, except for the part where he's completely and totally exposed if John Conners shows up dead. If anyone kills him - mafia, vig. SK, anyone? And this completely aside from the fact that he has to kill him himself according to this PM. Would you claim automatic BG for a role you had to kill to win?
I would if I'd already won if John Connor dies, or if (once I know who John Connor is) I can happily kill him any time I like e.g. in on LYLO night?
Or in the alternative, if John Connor is a scum or neutral buddy of his.
Also, Cyan is not exactly known for forward thinking (hi2u hammering cpe in DotA, sigh). A plan that will probably keep him alive and kicking for several days if believed is actually quite believable from him.
It's easy. All it needs to do is mention that John Connor is in the game and Cyan can make up first that he's John Connor's bodyguard (remembering he first claimed just to be a bodyguard and to know JC is in the game- the amendment to being a bodyguard who can only protect John Connor came later), then later that he has a double life. It could be a mafia PM, serial killer PM, "neutral hitman" PM and still make plenty of sense. It makes even more sense if Cyan's role requires him to find John Connor, but that's not actually necessary. He could just be trying to use his knowledge to buddy up to a character he believes is townie.
Unless, Mr Axelrod, you happen to know the scum group and know that a Terminator character is not in it?
So is your working hypothesis that Cyan basically backed himself into a corner with the way that he claimed and just didn't realize that he was royally screwing himself over?
Do you agree or not agree that he's easy pickings later if he's lying in this manner?
Are you currently assuming that he has or does not have this double life he is claiming? Or are you going to retrofit your theory that he's scum to fit him whatever occurs?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I would if I'd already won if John Connor dies, or if (once I know who John Connor is) I can happily kill him any time I like e.g. in on LYLO night?
Or in the alternative, if John Connor is a scum or neutral buddy of his.
Also, Cyan is not exactly known for forward thinking (hi2u hammering cpe in DotA, sigh). A plan that will probably keep him alive and kicking for several days if believed is actually quite believable from him.
You think Cyan can keep someone else from killing John Conners right up until he "wins?"
And, gee, didn't I even say already that one of the only possibilities I saw for Cyan being scum was if John Conners was actually scum with Cyan. Of course, he's still exposed if Conner's shows up dead. Doubly so since he's claiming Conners is town.
Ah, and you do think he may just not have looked far enough ahead.
Does that mean you agree the claim in it's current form is a stupid one for a scum to make, yes?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
@ Pod: Honestly, I don't know who my two "most suspicious" players are right now. I do think that LJustus is not who he says he is, and as much as I want to believe Cyan, I still have a nagging doubt about his claim (and his gameplay hasn't assuaged this any).
Probably right now, the two people I think are town (besides near-confirmed people like ZDS) are Sutherlands and you, for about the same reason: you both are playing consistent games, and, a few argumentative issues aside, both of you are quite solid in, among other things, your suspicion of me. You're both playing it quite like I would expect a townie to, and unlike Cyan, I don't think either of you have acted inherently scummy in your actions.
All things considered, I think I need a reread. Nobody just pops out as either too suspicious or too town beyond those mentioned above. Hvir especially is a player I want to look over. At the moment, however, I think my vote on Cyan is fine.
You think Cyan can keep someone else from killing John Conners right up until he "wins?"
And, gee, didn't I even say already that one of the only possibilities I saw for Cyan being scum was if John Conners was actually scum with Cyan. Of course, he's still exposed if Conner's shows up dead. Doubly so since he's claiming Conners is town.
Ah, and you do think he may just not have looked far enough ahead.
Does that mean you agree the claim in it's current form is a stupid one for a scum to make, yes?
There's ways to explain that...he can claim to be roleblocked for one. And how can we disprove that? Heck, if it's the case where he's like JCSuperstar's mafia reporter role, he can know for sure that the mafia did not roleblock anyone else.
I really dont think its that far of a stretch to suggest he could be nontown.
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Loran, tis is the third time the RB thing has come up. Please be more attentive. I *cannot* be roleblocked, anymore than someone that can't be NKed could be roleblocked. It is not an activated ability, it is passive. If John Connor shows up as dead and I'm still alive, the only explanation is that someone has an unpreventable kill. And I wouldn't even bother trying to push that on the town.
RafK: You are flatly misrepresenting me, for the second time in two days. The first thing that I said(as illustrated here was that I am a bodyguard only for JC. People expressed such disbelief in this claim that I double checked it with Azrael, who only confirmed that I was correct in the first place. I initially kept the facts that the ability was automatic and that I have 2 lives secret because it would have been much better off for the town that way. I could have forced the mafia to waste RBs on me, if they have them, and to waste an NK on me as well. I never changed anything I had said about my role, I clarified a couple of aspects of it with Az. Grakthis said shortly ago that he asked Az some specific questions to clarify his role, does that mean that you suddenly doubt him? I doubt it. Some things just aren't clear.
Well, I'll start this post off by Unvoting. Currently the only way I can see for Cyan to be lying is if he changes lives after dying. I think I'd rather let him live and hopefully he'll be inspected (blah blah directing the cop, but I really think he should be investigated). I'll switch over to my recent thoughts. Vote Xyre
With respect, though, I think you're overestimating this. Only way he's really gonna get his comeuppance is if JC dies via night/daykill. And I don't think the risk there is as high as you seem to be regarding it.
(btw, I find it fairly unlikely Cyan is a neutral. Nothing really works.)
SEEN terminator one, Pod?
Serial killer is a role that the T-800 fits into so easily it's almost not worth mentioning.
RafK, you've been awfully calm this game. Wheres the random arguments that you seem to get into in pretty much every game you're pro-town in?
This clinical approach (for you, anyway) is rather jarring.
You are kidding me, right? One of my problems this game has been that (at least to my eyes) that I have been arguing with too many people and I can't find a focus. Almost everyone seems to be scummy in some direction and it's making it hard to really settle on a "most scummy person or people.
Right, except for the part where he's completely and totally exposed if John Conners shows up dead.
This is like DYH and Pod in DotA. Pod can't be scum, he'd know he'd be exposed as a liar as soon as WOLG died!
And this is assuming, as I said, that Cyan would expect to see JC die OR that he needs to live past the point where JC dies.
Axelrod, if we followed your logic and Cyan is scum and JC exists, Cyan can do a lot of dodgy things between now and the death of JC and in the meantime muddy a lot of waters, knowing he has carte blanche because of his claim. The other scum can set up to be anti-Cyan knowing hell eventually be caught, etc.
Let me throw something back at you- put together a game in which a "power role" (John Connor) must be targeted to kill three times to get rid of him, and the first kill used dosn't even kill the bodyguard. Roleblock doesn't work. Even a mislynch on the bodyguard will not work And as an added bonus, Connor and the bodyguard are confirmed town by the process. And there's other claimed masons in the game.
Becuase that's what Cyan is asking us to believe.
You're going to have to stretch either way, and given Cyan's scummy play, I stretch against him.
I have PMed Azrael to ask if I am a traditional BG with the additional stipulation that I would always protect John Connor if he is targeted, or, if John Connor is the only person I can protect. My role PM isn't really that clear on this. I'll post when he answers.
I highly, highly doubt that the T1000 or TX are in the game, because of the finer points of the way my role works. Which again, I am not going to disclose. You're better off trying to kill me than the mafia knowing exactly how to exploit my role.
Now that you actually have checked and apparently told us everything, this second quote rings very untrue. It's like you want to hold back "something" in case you need an extra revelation.
Oh, and Axelrod, checking back over that period of Cyan's posts reveals to me back then you also thought Cyan was probably making it up (including leaning towards thinking there's no John Connor). But that's subject to the same arguments... it will come out whether or not John Connor is in the game. Surely it's a bit hypocritical of you here to use that argument on me when you were willing (at a much lower stage of the Cyan wagon) to believe that Cyan had just made up John Connor being in the game!
You're wrong. Now that you know all of my role, the initial statement should make perfect sense. Stop and think about it for a second. Not only do I automatically protect Connor, but I also have 2 lives. That means that, if there were a role that was trying to kill Connor, to accomplish any kind of goal that involved killing Connor, they would first have to kill me TWICE and THEN kill Connor. Doesn't that strike you as fairly unlikely?
Hell, in the post you're referencing, I inadvertantly gave a clue that I have 2 lives, by saying that you were better off 'trying' to kill me. And I already explained, all of 5 posts ago, why I checked that with Azrael. It was everyone else's disbelief that I would only be a BG for one role that made me doubt my own role PM. Just like it was at other people's request that I PMed him today to ask if anything would be revealed when I died, even though I doubted this. I understood how my role worked, but so much skepticism from others made me doubt myself.
Also, if I'm thinking of the same post that you're referring to as far as Axelrod's mindset, I believe that you're misreading what he was trying to say..but we'll see what Axelrod has to say about that.
Please fabricate for me Cyan's hypothetical scum role PM.
Then look at what you wrote and compare it to what he has claimed.
Ask yourself what underlying assumptions the claim entails.
Then examine it in light of all information currently available.
Then ask yourself if it makes any sense.
If your answer if "Yes," by all means, come back and share it with us. I would like to see that hypothetical role PM. I haven't come up with a good one yet.
"You are T-800, Mafia Legion. During the great war, the machines used legions of this model of terminator to hunt down and kill the remaining humans. The machines in this timeline, fond of their machine bretherin, have developed a version of you into the Matrix to hunt down and kill The One. To keep up the illusion, you've been told you're hunting John Conner.
To accomplish this mission, you have been teamed with ____,_____,____ to destroy everyone in the town. This will insure that your target dies.
Because you are legion, you have multiple-lives. The first time you are killed, you will not actually die."
Doesn't seem that complicated to me. It explains why he's here, why he would claim the connection to John Conner and why he wouldn't die to a lynch.
Or, alternatly, the multiple lives part could be completely made up.
When he gets bandwagoned into a claim, he claims his real role to avoid counterclaims and because his role was the hero in 2 movies. he claims john conner because his role PM tells him John Conner MIGHT be in the game and MIGHT save him. He claims the multiple lives thing as a last ditch attempt to save himself.
I really don't see this as complicated or difficult. It looks a lot like the kinds of roles I design. Where the person playing the role is given a clue that something or someone else is running around.
I did it in Kindred with my Vampire + human retainer roles, I did it in Dark Tower with my masons (implied there was someone trying to kill them) and with my Roland and Mordred characters (their role PMS mentioned eachother). I did it with Phodos and Azrael in Revelstone (Findail's Role PM specifically mentioned he was after the white gold weilder) and with the mafia and azrael (the mafia couldn't kill the WGW). Heck, I kinda did it with your role... didn' tyou figure out that you were searching for findail?
Maybe this is my bias as a game designer coming through... but this seems really simple to me.
Right, except for the part where he's completely and totally exposed if John Conners shows up dead. If anyone kills him - mafia, vig. SK, anyone? And this completely aside from the fact that he has to kill him himself according to this PM. Would you claim automatic BG for a role you had to kill to win?
Try again?
Because scum are only capable of perfect play?
it's completely impossible for scum to make a bad roleclaim strategy-wise because it has an increased chance of being confirmed somehow?
I am pretty sure that it's not bad to take the risk that you get lynched IIF John Conners dies if you were going to be lynched before anyways.
I mean, if he buys himself 3-4 days, that's pretty good for a mafia fakeclaim.
Hell, in Revelstone Caedere claimed to bodyguard a role that the SK specifically wanted to kill! And he got away with it ALL game!
You keep acting like this can't happen, but it happened in a game YOU were playing in!
Cyan's wagon has grown very slowly, which is something that I usually see on scum wagons a lot more than town (Magic Mafia anyone?). I think that trend holds here.
What has made me more confident in saying this is Cyan's hovering at -1 for the past day, so I did some research on those periods:
As of post #1183, Cyan was -1 to lynch (time was 3:54 PM EDT). The vote count was the following:
The following players posted while Cyan was at 11 (bolded ones were not voting for him at that time) ZDS 2x
Xyre Vampyr
loran16
J-Effe IV
The Hvir unvoted Cyan during post #1190 (time 7:25 PM EDT) so Cyan was at -1 for about 3 and a half hours. Hvir then re-votes Cyan in post #1210 (2:18 AM EDT) putting him back to -1. The vote count then was:
The following people posted in that window (again, bolded ones were ones not voting for him):
Cyan
Hvir ZDS
Pod
Then Cyan unvotes himself in post #1216 (yesterday at 8:59 AM EDT).
I think that the fact that he spent a good 8 hours at -1 during different times of the day (eliminating time-zone arguments) is VERY interesting. I don't think that it is a point in his favor quite honestly.
I might add that i was going to vote him except for the -1 thing, since i didnt want to lynch him before the town agreed we should end the day.
That said, i dont see what you're pointing at there, (and btw, slow wagons imo can be either scum or townny...for all you know there were activity issues.)
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I might add that i was going to vote him except for the -1 thing, since i didnt want to lynch him before the town agreed we should end the day.
That said, i dont see what you're pointing at there, (and btw, slow wagons imo can be either scum or townny...for all you know there were activity issues.)
People are afraid to lynch also meet the same criteria as people who FOS
Oh, and Axelrod, checking back over that period of Cyan's posts reveals to me back then you also thought Cyan was probably making it up (including leaning towards thinking there's no John Connor). But that's subject to the same arguments... it will come out whether or not John Connor is in the game. Surely it's a bit hypocritical of you here to use that argument on me when you were willing (at a much lower stage of the Cyan wagon) to believe that Cyan had just made up John Connor being in the game!
I never said I thought Cyan was "probably" making it up? Where do you get that? What I said initially was that it didn't seem like a scum gambit unless he was making up the JC role completely. That was even before he claimed that he was an "automatic" BG and that he had multiple lives.
Further reflection suggested that he would not just make up a JC role completely. A call for JC to come out ends him, as well as a Mass claim which is virtually certain to happen before the end.
What this actually feels like is Elegant Mafia, where people would not believe my claim despite it being the best explanation of events and were coming up with all kinds of ridiculous theories which totally didn't make sense, except you refused to acknowledge that they didn't make sense, and just modified the theories when they were contradicted/disproved, to get to the ultimate "conclusion" which was that I was lying scum. Which was wrong.
At least in that case you had a much better reason to be close-minded and to be retrofiting all the evidence to fit the conculsion you "knew" was true - Cop Inspection. Here, you don't even have that.
it's completely impossible for scum to make a bad roleclaim strategy-wise because it has an increased chance of being confirmed somehow?
I am pretty sure that it's not bad to take the risk that you get lynched IIF John Conners dies if you were going to be lynched before anyways.
I mean, if he buys himself 3-4 days, that's pretty good for a mafia fakeclaim.
Hell, in Revelstone Caedere claimed to bodyguard a role that the SK specifically wanted to kill! And he got away with it ALL game!
You keep acting like this can't happen, but it happened in a game YOU were playing in!
See, now you are the one who is assuming Cyan is stupid. And if that's your assumption, there really isn't a basis to argue.
I don't really want to debate whether or not what Caedere did in Revelstone was the same, because that's a game no one here played, but it was very much different which you should know full well, and I can't believe you are even arguing that point.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
That bit by Abbey really takes me off guard. It's Day One and there's been plenty of debate going around about whether or not Cyan should be lynched. It would have been entirely irresponsible of anyone to hammer him at that point. To echo loran's sentiments, what exactly are you trying to imply?
Proxy vote to Pod
(ps @ Axel: Unfortunately, I was in Revelstone mafia as a replacement - easily one of my worst games, ever.)
FWIW, I was thinking the same exact thing about your Cyan argument and Elegant mafia, too.
I might add that i was going to vote him except for the -1 thing, since i didnt want to lynch him before the town agreed we should end the day.
Afraid to hammer? I don't want to single you out as the only one who didn't do it, there certainly were others. However, I have seen this used multiple times by scum so that hammering (for the town's good or ill) doesn't bite them in the ass later.
That said, i dont see what you're pointing at there, (and btw, slow wagons imo can be either scum or townny...for all you know there were activity issues.)
I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this. I usually see slower wagons as more indicative of scum being wagoned.
Quote from DYH »
That bit by Abbey really takes me off guard. It's Day One and there's been plenty of debate going around about whether or not Cyan should be lynched. It would have been entirely irresponsible of anyone to hammer him at that point. To echo loran's sentiments, what exactly are you trying to imply?
What exactly was I trying to imply? Part of it was just reference for myself and others. I plan on looking into the bolded peoples' position on Cyan when I get more time. Part of it was for when we find out Cyan's alignment, it will be useful to know who refused to hammer him.
The final part was coming from my own position on Cyan, especially combined with his self-voting post (last ditch appeal to emotion anyone?), I think that he is scum. Even in the EXTREME circumstance that I am wrong about him (which I doubt for personal reasons).
What is your opinion of him DYH?
Afraid to hammer? I don't want to single you out as the only one who didn't do it, there certainly were others. However, I have seen this used multiple times by scum so that hammering (for the town's good or ill) doesn't bite them in the ass later.
Correct, it was a NON TELL! Townies should NEVER hammer there, and scum would usually not hammer there so as not to avoid suspicion. If a person Hammered it would be a nontown action, but the fact that no one did is not a tell of either manner.
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
I never said I thought Cyan was "probably" making it up? Where do you get that? What I said initially was that it didn't seem like a scum gambit unless he was making up the JC role completely. That was even before he claimed that he was an "automatic" BG and that he had multiple lives.
Initially or not, you said it, and without the disclaimer.
Quote from Axelrod »
Further reflection suggested that he would not just make up a JC role completely. A call for JC to come out ends him, as well as a Mass claim which is virtually certain to happen before the end.
Not all scum claims are great, Axel. How terrible was your claim in DotA? How terrible was Pod's ever-changing claim in DotA? How did you get away with freaking Yawgmoth in random 2? What about my ADD Kid claim in High School?
Trust in the gut reaction. It tends to be correct. And in this case, the gut reaction is he's making it up. He's helped by the fact that it doesn't make any sense to call for John Connor to come out, so he's not going to get caught that way until end game. A claim that lets a scum skate through to endgame really isn't that bad.
What this actually feels like is Elegant Mafia,
I'll snip you there. Trying to use that incident in Elegant Mafia to explain behaviour is very sloppy. We were both bastard-modded there, and given that you started on the angry PMs to Puzzle and HE7 even before I did (well, you died first) I know you know that. It's a completely useless situation for trying to explain anyone's behaviour, unless you happen to have reason to believe we're being misled by a mod again.
And given that you just said about some misetings game that you didn't want to debate it because it was a completely different situation, I have no idea why you're trying to do exactly that with Elegant, which was likewise a completely different situation.
It does feel like Elegant in one way, though. You're being really twisty with facts Unfortunately, as I also learned in Elegant, you're willing to do that even as town in order to get your own way, so it's not any sort of tell.
EBWODP: Because I can't resist the opportunity to tweak cp about this- how terrible was cp claiming Manute in Sin City Mafia?
Scum make bad claims. Arguing it can't be scum because it would be bad for scum to claim is as WIFOM (and outright wrong) as it comes. And coming directly after your (Axelrod's) and Pod's scum false claims in DotA, short memory or what?
There was no John Connor in the first movie. Now, I'm 99% sure Cyan is telling the truth about knowing there is a John Connor in the game. Later, if/when we find out there isn't one, Cyan is an auto-lynch. The only way he can be scum is if:
a. He's really a T-1000, or
b. He made up the whole T-800/JC relationship (in which case he'll be found out later.
I am leaning along these lines myself for the moment.
Considering that there are 2 (actually more) Terminators running around in that franchise, I'm curious why you would think that claim clears you 100%?
If you were assigned to "protect" this role, wouldn't it make a certain amount of sense for a counter-role to be in the game that wants to "terminate" him? And then, couldn't you just as easily be that counter role?
Or there's no counter role, just you, out to kill him? I'm just speculating, but you were the one who seemed to think the claim was 100% solid.
I don't know, it still doesn't make a whole lot of sense as a scum gambit either. Unless John Conner is a complete fabrication of yours.
Or to put it another way- yes, Axelrod was considering exactly the ideas he has now attempted to claim are too ridiculous to believe.
Not all scum claims are great, Axel. How terrible was your claim in DotA? How terrible was Pod's ever-changing claim in DotA? How did you get away with freaking Yawgmoth in random 2? What about my ADD Kid claim in High School?
My claim was awesome. Except for the whole forgetting my role part. And even then, I did not claim something that was guaranteed to get me lynched later. I can't speak to Pod's claim, except that he did get lynched, right? And you got tested and lynched in High School also. And Yawgmoth was not a terrible claim - hence people buying it. What point are you making?
Trust in the gut reaction. It tends to be correct. And in this case, the gut reaction is he's making it up. He's helped by the fact that it doesn't make any sense to call for John Connor to come out, so he's not going to get caught that way until end game. A claim that lets a scum skate through to endgame really isn't that bad.
Look, here is the problem, answer this question: WHAT IS IT THAT YOU DON'T BELIEVE???
Cyan said a lot of things. It's possible you might disbelieve all, or part of what he claimed. But right now I can't tell because you appear to be fudging.
For example, in your above quote, it appears you are saying that you doubt that there is a JC role in the game at all. And you speculate that Cyan might make it up because he could safely assume that people would not ask for the role to come out.
I categorically disagree with that position, and do not believe for a minute that he would make up the role, calculating that he would not be called on it. It's almost certain suicide. There is absolutely no way that he "skates" to the endgame on such a fabrication. And even then, he still dies to a mass claim.
If you disbelieved that part of the claim, it would be easy to call Cyan on it right now. But it doesn't appear to me that this is what you really believe. You are just kind of attacking everything, even where the attacks are not consistant.
I'll snip you there. Trying to use that incident in Elegant Mafia to explain behaviour is very sloppy. We were both bastard-modded there, and given that you started on the angry PMs to Puzzle and HE7 even before I did (well, you died first) I know you know that. It's a completely useless situation for trying to explain anyone's behaviour, unless you happen to have reason to believe we're being misled by a mod again.
I said what it "feels" like to me right now. That's not an argument for anything one way or the other, except in as much as it might behoove you to re-evaluate your own behavior to see where tunnel-vision gets you sometimes.
And given that you just said about some misetings game that you didn't want to debate it because it was a completely different situation, I have no idea why you're trying to do exactly that with Elegant, which was likewise a completely different situation.
Reading comprehension FTW. It was a game on another site that no one here (sorry DYH) would be familiar with. I am not against bringing up instances from other games for purposes of comparison or by way of comparison. I do it all the time.
It does feel like Elegant in one way, though. You're being really twisty with facts Unfortunately, as I also learned in Elegant, you're willing to do that even as town in order to get your own way, so it's not any sort of tell.
Exactly which fact am I being "twisty" with, Raf. Point me to ONE. This is the kind of thing you say which is just absolutely infuriating.
EBWODP: Because I can't resist the opportunity to tweak cp about this- how terrible was cp claiming Manute in Sin City Mafia?
Scum make bad claims. Arguing it can't be scum because it would be bad for scum to claim is as WIFOM (and outright wrong) as it comes. And coming directly after your (Axelrod's) and Pod's scum false claims in DotA, short memory or what?
Or to put it another way- yes, Axelrod was considering exactly the ideas he has now attempted to claim are too ridiculous to believe.
You fail at reading comprehension, Raf.
Your second quote is exactly what I said it was. I said it didn't make sense as a scum gambit unless JC was a fabrication of Cyan's. You first quote is me expressing agreement with Alx, who said that he thought Cyan was telling the truth about JC being in the game. And noting that Cyan would be an auto lynch later if he wasn't.
I consider everything. You should try it. And then spell out what specifically you don't believe about Cyan's claim.
Why am I arguing with you?
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
See, now you are the one who is assuming Cyan is stupid. And if that's your assumption, there really isn't a basis to argue.
I don't really want to debate whether or not what Caedere did in Revelstone was the same, because that's a game no one here played, but it was very much different which you should know full well, and I can't believe you are even arguing that point.
Actually, I don't think it's a dumb claim. i think it's a flawed claim, but I think it's a plausible one because, as you can see, it's making a lot of people pause to think about it.
I very easily would have considered that roleclaim with the mock PM I wrote up last page.
I am not suggesting we lynch him BECAUSE of his role claim... I want to lynch him BECAUSE of his behavior. But his roleclaim is not saving him because I see a ton of VERY VERY plausible scenarios where he's scum with that claim.
Also, it is the same as the Caedere roleclaim. Don't stand here and say "You're wrong but I don't want to talk about it." That's skating discussion, and you know how I feel about that. If you don't want to talk about it, then stop giving me your opinion on it.
You may have answered this already. If Cyan is lynched and does not die, what will you think then? Will you be immediately advocating for his second death because you are just that sure, or will the verification of that part of his claim change anything?
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
You may have answered this already. If Cyan is lynched and does not die, what will you think then? Will you be immediately advocating for his second death because you are just that sure, or will the verification of that part of his claim change anything?
I am not sure if this is aimed at me, because I answered this already... which, you should have read
But if he dies and does not die, I do not want him to die again. Maybe MTGS has a different history, but IMO, I do not see Azrael designing a role that does not die to a lynch but is not town aligned. And if he did, well, we can investigate him later if we need to... but I'd see that as STRONG proof of his alignment.
If people can support lynching LJ to investigate atl, why does lynching LJ to investigate Cyan is considered a waste of time and ability? Both have claimed. And both, if speaking the truth, could be a great asset to the town.
The same benefit I would assume, that of an investigation.
For some reasons, there is a reluctance to use investigations to confirm people or to find scums right now, what with calling for an atl's vig ability instead of investigative and the difficult concept of lynching LJ as a townie to gain an investigation.
The same benefit I would assume, that of an investigation.
For some reasons, there is a reluctance to use investigations to confirm people or to find scums right now, what with calling for an atl's vig ability instead of investigative and the difficult concept of lynching LJ as a townie to gain an investigation.
See, I would think that that would a) give the mafia people to shoot, and b) do less good (with 20+ people) than later in the game (with <7 people).
See, I would think that that would a) give the mafia people to shoot, and b) do less good (with 20+ people) than later in the game (with <7 people).
I think it would be too late to be of any real use at that point. I think at that point a scum has gained too many townie points and is firmly entrenched as someone to be trusted.
I think it should be used somewhere after night 2 and and by night 5. This is assuming one lynch and one NK per part, adjustable pending more kills showing up. So somewhere between 19 and 13 remaining players, what I would consider the mid game.
And since I never liked the idea of voting LJ today, Unvote: LJ.
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Loran, tis is the third time the RB thing has come up. Please be more attentive. I *cannot* be role blocked, anymore than someone that can't be NKed could be role blocked. It is not an activated ability, it is passive. If John Connor shows up as dead and I'm still alive, the only explanation is that someone has an unpreventable kill. And I wouldn't even bother trying to push that on the town.
This is interesting and in my mind another reason I don’t believe you Cyan.
In the magnum opus of mafia games, Sin City Mafia also created and moderated by Azrael and based on the Outstanding Dimension Films movie Sin City.
Directed by Robert Rodriguez and Frank Miller, with Special Guest Director Quentin Tarantino and Starring Bruce Willis, the lovely Jessica Alba, Elijah Wood and a cast of Thousands!
Now available on a Special 2 disc DVD set From dimension Films Home Video.
In that movie, err…. Game I had a role. I played the role of a Bodyguard and I was charged with trying to protect one of two valuable town roles. I would be able to protect only one of the two and I would redirect that kill from my target to myself, dying in the process. As the Bodyguard in Sin City Mafia I did not have multiple lives. I was not unblockable if a role blocker targeted me. In short I was not a ridiculously overpowered role like the one you are describing. My role was crafted to be a helpful support role and showed the attention to detail and game balance that I have found to be hallmarks of an Azrael designed and moderated mafia game.
Now, I know this is not Sin City Mafia and it is possible that Azrael has abandoned his normal style of crafting a detailed, thoughtful, flavorful and above all else Well Balance Mafia Game here, but I don’t think so.
The role you have pieced together, revealing each piece of additional ability as public opinion closes into finally dealing with you, is so completely different from the balanced roles Azrael is known for that it is in my opinion not remotely credible.
As before, my vote is staying where it is.
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That entire post was just you gaming the Mod. I can't argue with any of that.
I can, however, point out that it makes no sense for the T800 to want to protect anyone other than John Connor. It DOES make sense for the T800 to have multiple lives, because he is extremely dedicated to his mission.
Also, the points that you are arguing must not be true are all 100% verifiable. Whether or not I take the kill automatically is easily proven. Whether or not I have multiple lives is even more easily proven.
The fact that you feel the need to try to outguess the Mod to justify your vote at this point only tells me that you're scum trying to make your vote seem as convincing as possible, hence the need to reinforce it again.
Axelrod: Yes, all of those people were lynched. Because they had bad claims.
You're arguing that Cyan's claim would be too bad as scum to lynch, because he'd be caught out as a liar eventually. I am arguing that we can and do and should lynch people who make bad claims that would get caught out eventually, because they actually are scum.
I do not understand how you are still trying to argue that Cyan wouldn't make a bad claim as scum. It happens. Deal with it.
The point which I have made and Hawkeye has made and loran has made and several others still holds- Cyan's claimed role is ridiculously imbalanced for the town. Even in the worst case scenario, he gets "lynched" and we confirm him, confirm Connor by association, and he's still bodyguarding Connor's role with no-one actually dying. The best case scenario we have a power role who takes 3 kills to get at as well as the confirmations. This is really too good a deal for the town to be true. Cyan's only answer to this point appears to be that we're "gaming the mod". You could say this about any claim analysis. Cyan himself is "gaming the mod" by claiming that John Connor must be a town role. It's not gaming the mod. It's deciding what's likely to be true based on experience.
I'm not 'gaming the Mod' by claiming the Connors must be a town power role, I'm reading the part of my role PM where it says that I have to protect him for as long as possible so that he can teach people to fight the machines. It doesn't take alot of intuition to realize that someone that fights the machines = town. And why would I be a bodyguard for a non-town role anyway, that makes no sense. I didn't make a bad claim at all, I claimed exactly what my role is. It's unfortunate that you guys are making the role out to be more than it really is, and that you're very obviously gaming the Mod in your effort to do so. Seriously, it's saddening that this is the only argument you have. Some people think I've acted scummy, and that's fine. I can't argue the logistics of that, even if I disagree. But the argument that you guys are putting forth is A)a terrible argument in and of itself and B)easily debunked by any of the three different things(John Connor is town, I auto-protect, I have 2 lives) being verified.
I'm not 'gaming the Mod' by claiming the Connors must be a town power role, I'm reading the part of my role PM where it says that I have to protect him for as long as possible so that he can teach people to fight the machines. It doesn't take alot of intuition to realize that someone that fights the machines = town. And why would I be a bodyguard for a non-town role anyway, that makes no sense. I didn't make a bad claim at all, I claimed exactly what my role is. It's unfortunate that you guys are making the role out to be more than it really is, and that you're very obviously gaming the Mod in your effort to do so. Seriously, it's saddening that this is the only argument you have. Some people think I've acted scummy, and that's fine. I can't argue the logistics of that, even if I disagree. But the argument that you guys are putting forth is A)a terrible argument in and of itself and B)easily debunked by any of the three different things(John Connor is town, I auto-protect, I have 2 lives) being verified.
The Connors? Since when is it now the Connors? Before it's always been John, alone.
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Axelrod: Yes, all of those people were lynched. Because they had bad claims.
You're arguing that Cyan's claim would be too bad as scum to lynch, because he'd be caught out as a liar eventually. I am arguing that we can and do and should lynch people who make bad claims that would get caught out eventually, because they actually are scum.
I do not understand how you are still trying to argue that Cyan wouldn't make a bad claim as scum. It happens. Deal with it.
I'm curious. Did you ever see someone who didn't have 2 lives claim pretending that he did? I'm fairly sure I've never seen that, and I'm fairly sure the reason is that that claim always gets tested. More often than not, it gets tested immediately under the theory that "if it's true, we're not that much worse off." I don't see how anyone can reasonably argue that Cyan would have made that claim hoping/expecting NOT to get tested.
Furthermore, as you seem to realize, I am not, in fact saying that the claim is "too bad" for a scum to make (although it certainly would be a crazily reckless claim). My primary point has always been that if he's lying, he's going to get caught. We do not need to test him today.
The point which I have made and Hawkeye has made and loran has made and several others still holds- Cyan's claimed role is ridiculously imbalanced for the town. Even in the worst case scenario, he gets "lynched" and we confirm him, confirm Connor by association, and he's still bodyguarding Connor's role with no-one actually dying. The best case scenario we have a power role who takes 3 kills to get at as well as the confirmations. This is really too good a deal for the town to be true. Cyan's only answer to this point appears to be that we're "gaming the mod". You could say this about any claim analysis. Cyan himself is "gaming the mod" by claiming that John Connor must be a town role. It's not gaming the mod. It's deciding what's likely to be true based on experience.
I think it's premature for you or anyone to be declaring such a hypothetical set-up "ridiculously imbalanced" when you (at least in theory) have no idea what the John Connor role is or what the scum would have on the other side of it.
And frankly, Cyan's last post has pretty much removed the last lingering doubts I had about him. I now think he's town.
Who was your #2 guy again?
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I think it's premature for you or anyone to be declaring such a hypothetical set-up "ridiculously imbalanced" when you (at least in theory) have no idea what the John Connor role is or what the scum would have on the other side of it.
Why is it premature?
Seriously, Axel, you're arguing that the scenarios in which Cyan could be scum with his claim are too narrow to be believed, based on rolename. Raf is claiming that the scenarios in which Cyan is town could be town with his claim are too narrow to be believed, based on game setup speculation. There is no serious difference in the nature of those arguments. The only difference is that Raf is assuming that Cyan wants to survive for the day while you are assuming that Cyan wants to survive forever. Oh, and the fact that Raf's argument isn't completely wrecked by taking away that assumption. And that Raf's assumption fits better with the motivation of a scum than yours.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
That entire post was just you gaming the Mod. I can't argue with any of that.
I can, however, point out that it makes no sense for the T800 to want to protect anyone other than John Connor. It DOES make sense for the T800 to have multiple lives, because he is extremely dedicated to his mission.
Also, the points that you are arguing must not be true are all 100% verifiable. Whether or not I take the kill automatically is easily proven. Whether or not I have multiple lives is even more easily proven.
The fact that you feel the need to try to outguess the Mod to justify your vote at this point only tells me that you're scum trying to make your vote seem as convincing as possible, hence the need to reinforce it again.
It is not gaming the mod to state clearly what everyone who has played in an Azrael designed mafia game already knows. His games are interesting. They are very well designed and above almost all else they are balance. The reason that they are so well designed and balanced, in my opinion, is that Azrael take pride in presenting a game that will be challenging and fun for everyone that plays in the game. There is no place for a role like the one you have slowly evolved and piecemealed together. It is an unbalanced mixture of abilities that you have duct taped onto your real role, each intended to make you seem more desirable to keep around and presented only when you feel the need to try to stave off a town lynch vote.
Anyone who still is uncertain about you need only look at your early game play and ask themselves if that is the play of a player trying to improve the position of the town or just his own position. They should look at the case Grak presented against you and how you reacted to it. how you tried to ignore it, then acknowledged it and said you would address it, then refused to address it and only after repeatedly be called on the carpet on this refusal did you attempt to address it.
Then came the first version of your role claim. If you had addressed Grak's case like you had said you would you most likely would not have had to role claim at all. Then you piecemeal the claim and after each new ability, each as good or better then the last, you are questioned about your role and a new ability comes out. There is also how you completely misrepresented an entire post of mine not just missing my points but completely getting them wrong and presenting false information. http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2103078&postcount=1105
& http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2103726&postcount=1118
The Connors? Since when is it now the Connors? Before it's always been John, alone.
So, how do you explain this? Slip of the tongue? New ability you have decided to toss out there?
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I'm not 'gaming the Mod' by claiming the Connors must be a town power role, I'm reading the part of my role PM where it says that I have to protect him for as long as possible so that he can teach people to fight the machines. It doesn't take alot of intuition to realize that someone that fights the machines = town.
Could I just pull you up there?
Some machines are town (hi arim!). The town goal is not to wipe out all machines. You just made what we in the trade call an "oopsie".
This reinforces my feel that whether or not you're mafia, you and Connors cannot be town. However, if you're just a neutral, it might not be necessary to lynch you. unvote.
Also, it is true that your claim of 2 lives can be verified, but not without, you know, killing you. So as a way to let us test you without lynching you, it leaves a lot to be desired.
I'm curious. Did you ever see someone who didn't have 2 lives claim pretending that he did? I'm fairly sure I've never seen that, and I'm fairly sure the reason is that that claim always gets tested.
Cyan claimed that at like lynch -1 though. After having just finished DotA in which lynching the double-lifer "just to test" was a mistake. He had his back to the wall and had reason to believe people would be slower to auto-test the claim this time, and wouldn't you know, they have been.
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Please fabricate for me Cyan's hypothetical scum role PM.
Then look at what you wrote and compare it to what he has claimed.
Ask yourself what underlying assumptions the claim entails.
Then examine it in light of all information currently available.
Then ask yourself if it makes any sense.
If your answer if "Yes," by all means, come back and share it with us. I would like to see that hypothetical role PM. I haven't come up with a good one yet.
I think I gave up a few hundred posts ago because I think my trumps are good enough to make up for this day and give me an opportunity to play better tomorrow. That's about as honest as it gets.
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Ummmm.....is this so hard to imagine?
Or he could be double life mafia member who knows that John Connor is in the game, like JC Superstar's mafia reporter role from sin city.
Are these that unlikely to you?
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Right, except for the part where he's completely and totally exposed if John Conners shows up dead. If anyone kills him - mafia, vig. SK, anyone? And this completely aside from the fact that he has to kill him himself according to this PM. Would you claim automatic BG for a role you had to kill to win?
Try again?
It's easy. All it needs to do is mention that John Connor is in the game and Cyan can make up first that he's John Connor's bodyguard (remembering he first claimed just to be a bodyguard and to know JC is in the game- the amendment to being a bodyguard who can only protect John Connor came later), then later that he has a double life. It could be a mafia PM, serial killer PM, "neutral hitman" PM and still make plenty of sense. It makes even more sense if Cyan's role requires him to find John Connor, but that's not actually necessary. He could just be trying to use his knowledge to buddy up to a character he believes is townie.
Unless, Mr Axelrod, you happen to know the scum group and know that a Terminator character is not in it?
I would if I'd already won if John Connor dies, or if (once I know who John Connor is) I can happily kill him any time I like e.g. in on LYLO night?
Or in the alternative, if John Connor is a scum or neutral buddy of his.
Also, Cyan is not exactly known for forward thinking (hi2u hammering cpe in DotA, sigh). A plan that will probably keep him alive and kicking for several days if believed is actually quite believable from him.
So is your working hypothesis that Cyan basically backed himself into a corner with the way that he claimed and just didn't realize that he was royally screwing himself over?
Do you agree or not agree that he's easy pickings later if he's lying in this manner?
Are you currently assuming that he has or does not have this double life he is claiming? Or are you going to retrofit your theory that he's scum to fit him whatever occurs?
You think Cyan can keep someone else from killing John Conners right up until he "wins?"
And, gee, didn't I even say already that one of the only possibilities I saw for Cyan being scum was if John Conners was actually scum with Cyan. Of course, he's still exposed if Conner's shows up dead. Doubly so since he's claiming Conners is town.
Ah, and you do think he may just not have looked far enough ahead.
Does that mean you agree the claim in it's current form is a stupid one for a scum to make, yes?
Probably right now, the two people I think are town (besides near-confirmed people like ZDS) are Sutherlands and you, for about the same reason: you both are playing consistent games, and, a few argumentative issues aside, both of you are quite solid in, among other things, your suspicion of me. You're both playing it quite like I would expect a townie to, and unlike Cyan, I don't think either of you have acted inherently scummy in your actions.
All things considered, I think I need a reread. Nobody just pops out as either too suspicious or too town beyond those mentioned above. Hvir especially is a player I want to look over. At the moment, however, I think my vote on Cyan is fine.
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There's ways to explain that...he can claim to be roleblocked for one. And how can we disprove that? Heck, if it's the case where he's like JCSuperstar's mafia reporter role, he can know for sure that the mafia did not roleblock anyone else.
I really dont think its that far of a stretch to suggest he could be nontown.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
RafK: You are flatly misrepresenting me, for the second time in two days. The first thing that I said(as illustrated here was that I am a bodyguard only for JC. People expressed such disbelief in this claim that I double checked it with Azrael, who only confirmed that I was correct in the first place. I initially kept the facts that the ability was automatic and that I have 2 lives secret because it would have been much better off for the town that way. I could have forced the mafia to waste RBs on me, if they have them, and to waste an NK on me as well. I never changed anything I had said about my role, I clarified a couple of aspects of it with Az. Grakthis said shortly ago that he asked Az some specific questions to clarify his role, does that mean that you suddenly doubt him? I doubt it. Some things just aren't clear.
9 Cyan-Grakthis, Xyre, Hawkeye, J-Effe IV, Carrion Pigeons, Abbeygargoyle, Rafaelk, Fadeblue, Hvirfilvindr
1 Hvirfilvindr- Axelrod
7 LJustus- Atlseal, ZDS, Dagger, Spoon, Vampyr, Alx2, LJustus
1 Loran16- Athos
3 xyre- Pod, Cyan, Sutherlands
Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
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Play IRC mafia. (/join #mafia)
SEEN terminator one, Pod?
Serial killer is a role that the T-800 fits into so easily it's almost not worth mentioning.
You are kidding me, right? One of my problems this game has been that (at least to my eyes) that I have been arguing with too many people and I can't find a focus. Almost everyone seems to be scummy in some direction and it's making it hard to really settle on a "most scummy person or people.
This is like DYH and Pod in DotA. Pod can't be scum, he'd know he'd be exposed as a liar as soon as WOLG died!
And this is assuming, as I said, that Cyan would expect to see JC die OR that he needs to live past the point where JC dies.
Axelrod, if we followed your logic and Cyan is scum and JC exists, Cyan can do a lot of dodgy things between now and the death of JC and in the meantime muddy a lot of waters, knowing he has carte blanche because of his claim. The other scum can set up to be anti-Cyan knowing hell eventually be caught, etc.
Let me throw something back at you- put together a game in which a "power role" (John Connor) must be targeted to kill three times to get rid of him, and the first kill used dosn't even kill the bodyguard. Roleblock doesn't work. Even a mislynch on the bodyguard will not work And as an added bonus, Connor and the bodyguard are confirmed town by the process. And there's other claimed masons in the game.
Becuase that's what Cyan is asking us to believe.
You're going to have to stretch either way, and given Cyan's scummy play, I stretch against him.
Now that you actually have checked and apparently told us everything, this second quote rings very untrue. It's like you want to hold back "something" in case you need an extra revelation.
Oh, and Axelrod, checking back over that period of Cyan's posts reveals to me back then you also thought Cyan was probably making it up (including leaning towards thinking there's no John Connor). But that's subject to the same arguments... it will come out whether or not John Connor is in the game. Surely it's a bit hypocritical of you here to use that argument on me when you were willing (at a much lower stage of the Cyan wagon) to believe that Cyan had just made up John Connor being in the game!
Hell, in the post you're referencing, I inadvertantly gave a clue that I have 2 lives, by saying that you were better off 'trying' to kill me. And I already explained, all of 5 posts ago, why I checked that with Azrael. It was everyone else's disbelief that I would only be a BG for one role that made me doubt my own role PM. Just like it was at other people's request that I PMed him today to ask if anything would be revealed when I died, even though I doubted this. I understood how my role worked, but so much skepticism from others made me doubt myself.
Also, if I'm thinking of the same post that you're referring to as far as Axelrod's mindset, I believe that you're misreading what he was trying to say..but we'll see what Axelrod has to say about that.
"You are T-800, Mafia Legion. During the great war, the machines used legions of this model of terminator to hunt down and kill the remaining humans. The machines in this timeline, fond of their machine bretherin, have developed a version of you into the Matrix to hunt down and kill The One. To keep up the illusion, you've been told you're hunting John Conner.
To accomplish this mission, you have been teamed with ____,_____,____ to destroy everyone in the town. This will insure that your target dies.
Because you are legion, you have multiple-lives. The first time you are killed, you will not actually die."
Doesn't seem that complicated to me. It explains why he's here, why he would claim the connection to John Conner and why he wouldn't die to a lynch.
Or, alternatly, the multiple lives part could be completely made up.
When he gets bandwagoned into a claim, he claims his real role to avoid counterclaims and because his role was the hero in 2 movies. he claims john conner because his role PM tells him John Conner MIGHT be in the game and MIGHT save him. He claims the multiple lives thing as a last ditch attempt to save himself.
I really don't see this as complicated or difficult. It looks a lot like the kinds of roles I design. Where the person playing the role is given a clue that something or someone else is running around.
I did it in Kindred with my Vampire + human retainer roles, I did it in Dark Tower with my masons (implied there was someone trying to kill them) and with my Roland and Mordred characters (their role PMS mentioned eachother). I did it with Phodos and Azrael in Revelstone (Findail's Role PM specifically mentioned he was after the white gold weilder) and with the mafia and azrael (the mafia couldn't kill the WGW). Heck, I kinda did it with your role... didn' tyou figure out that you were searching for findail?
Maybe this is my bias as a game designer coming through... but this seems really simple to me.
Because scum are only capable of perfect play?
it's completely impossible for scum to make a bad roleclaim strategy-wise because it has an increased chance of being confirmed somehow?
I am pretty sure that it's not bad to take the risk that you get lynched IIF John Conners dies if you were going to be lynched before anyways.
I mean, if he buys himself 3-4 days, that's pretty good for a mafia fakeclaim.
Hell, in Revelstone Caedere claimed to bodyguard a role that the SK specifically wanted to kill! And he got away with it ALL game!
You keep acting like this can't happen, but it happened in a game YOU were playing in!
What has made me more confident in saying this is Cyan's hovering at -1 for the past day, so I did some research on those periods:
As of post #1183, Cyan was -1 to lynch (time was 3:54 PM EDT). The vote count was the following:
The following players posted while Cyan was at 11 (bolded ones were not voting for him at that time)
ZDS 2x
Xyre
Vampyr
loran16
J-Effe IV
The Hvir unvoted Cyan during post #1190 (time 7:25 PM EDT) so Cyan was at -1 for about 3 and a half hours. Hvir then re-votes Cyan in post #1210 (2:18 AM EDT) putting him back to -1. The vote count then was:
The following people posted in that window (again, bolded ones were ones not voting for him):
Cyan
Hvir
ZDS
Pod
Then Cyan unvotes himself in post #1216 (yesterday at 8:59 AM EDT).
I think that the fact that he spent a good 8 hours at -1 during different times of the day (eliminating time-zone arguments) is VERY interesting. I don't think that it is a point in his favor quite honestly.
That said, i dont see what you're pointing at there, (and btw, slow wagons imo can be either scum or townny...for all you know there were activity issues.)
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
People are afraid to lynch also meet the same criteria as people who FOS
I never said I thought Cyan was "probably" making it up? Where do you get that? What I said initially was that it didn't seem like a scum gambit unless he was making up the JC role completely. That was even before he claimed that he was an "automatic" BG and that he had multiple lives.
Further reflection suggested that he would not just make up a JC role completely. A call for JC to come out ends him, as well as a Mass claim which is virtually certain to happen before the end.
What this actually feels like is Elegant Mafia, where people would not believe my claim despite it being the best explanation of events and were coming up with all kinds of ridiculous theories which totally didn't make sense, except you refused to acknowledge that they didn't make sense, and just modified the theories when they were contradicted/disproved, to get to the ultimate "conclusion" which was that I was lying scum. Which was wrong.
At least in that case you had a much better reason to be close-minded and to be retrofiting all the evidence to fit the conculsion you "knew" was true - Cop Inspection. Here, you don't even have that.
See, now you are the one who is assuming Cyan is stupid. And if that's your assumption, there really isn't a basis to argue.
I don't really want to debate whether or not what Caedere did in Revelstone was the same, because that's a game no one here played, but it was very much different which you should know full well, and I can't believe you are even arguing that point.
Proxy vote to Pod
(ps @ Axel: Unfortunately, I was in Revelstone mafia as a replacement - easily one of my worst games, ever.)
FWIW, I was thinking the same exact thing about your Cyan argument and Elegant mafia, too.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Afraid to hammer? I don't want to single you out as the only one who didn't do it, there certainly were others. However, I have seen this used multiple times by scum so that hammering (for the town's good or ill) doesn't bite them in the ass later.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this. I usually see slower wagons as more indicative of scum being wagoned.
What exactly was I trying to imply? Part of it was just reference for myself and others. I plan on looking into the bolded peoples' position on Cyan when I get more time. Part of it was for when we find out Cyan's alignment, it will be useful to know who refused to hammer him.
The final part was coming from my own position on Cyan, especially combined with his self-voting post (last ditch appeal to emotion anyone?), I think that he is scum. Even in the EXTREME circumstance that I am wrong about him (which I doubt for personal reasons).
What is your opinion of him DYH?
Correct, it was a NON TELL! Townies should NEVER hammer there, and scum would usually not hammer there so as not to avoid suspicion. If a person Hammered it would be a nontown action, but the fact that no one did is not a tell of either manner.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Initially or not, you said it, and without the disclaimer.
Not all scum claims are great, Axel. How terrible was your claim in DotA? How terrible was Pod's ever-changing claim in DotA? How did you get away with freaking Yawgmoth in random 2? What about my ADD Kid claim in High School?
Trust in the gut reaction. It tends to be correct. And in this case, the gut reaction is he's making it up. He's helped by the fact that it doesn't make any sense to call for John Connor to come out, so he's not going to get caught that way until end game. A claim that lets a scum skate through to endgame really isn't that bad.
I'll snip you there. Trying to use that incident in Elegant Mafia to explain behaviour is very sloppy. We were both bastard-modded there, and given that you started on the angry PMs to Puzzle and HE7 even before I did (well, you died first) I know you know that. It's a completely useless situation for trying to explain anyone's behaviour, unless you happen to have reason to believe we're being misled by a mod again.
And given that you just said about some misetings game that you didn't want to debate it because it was a completely different situation, I have no idea why you're trying to do exactly that with Elegant, which was likewise a completely different situation.
It does feel like Elegant in one way, though. You're being really twisty with facts Unfortunately, as I also learned in Elegant, you're willing to do that even as town in order to get your own way, so it's not any sort of tell.
Scum make bad claims. Arguing it can't be scum because it would be bad for scum to claim is as WIFOM (and outright wrong) as it comes. And coming directly after your (Axelrod's) and Pod's scum false claims in DotA, short memory or what?
Or to put it another way- yes, Axelrod was considering exactly the ideas he has now attempted to claim are too ridiculous to believe.
Except for that there was a disclaimer. So you are completely correct except for not.
My claim was awesome. Except for the whole forgetting my role part. And even then, I did not claim something that was guaranteed to get me lynched later. I can't speak to Pod's claim, except that he did get lynched, right? And you got tested and lynched in High School also. And Yawgmoth was not a terrible claim - hence people buying it. What point are you making?
Look, here is the problem, answer this question: WHAT IS IT THAT YOU DON'T BELIEVE???
Cyan said a lot of things. It's possible you might disbelieve all, or part of what he claimed. But right now I can't tell because you appear to be fudging.
For example, in your above quote, it appears you are saying that you doubt that there is a JC role in the game at all. And you speculate that Cyan might make it up because he could safely assume that people would not ask for the role to come out.
I categorically disagree with that position, and do not believe for a minute that he would make up the role, calculating that he would not be called on it. It's almost certain suicide. There is absolutely no way that he "skates" to the endgame on such a fabrication. And even then, he still dies to a mass claim.
If you disbelieved that part of the claim, it would be easy to call Cyan on it right now. But it doesn't appear to me that this is what you really believe. You are just kind of attacking everything, even where the attacks are not consistant.
I said what it "feels" like to me right now. That's not an argument for anything one way or the other, except in as much as it might behoove you to re-evaluate your own behavior to see where tunnel-vision gets you sometimes.
Reading comprehension FTW. It was a game on another site that no one here (sorry DYH) would be familiar with. I am not against bringing up instances from other games for purposes of comparison or by way of comparison. I do it all the time.
Exactly which fact am I being "twisty" with, Raf. Point me to ONE. This is the kind of thing you say which is just absolutely infuriating.
You fail at reading comprehension, Raf.
Your second quote is exactly what I said it was. I said it didn't make sense as a scum gambit unless JC was a fabrication of Cyan's. You first quote is me expressing agreement with Alx, who said that he thought Cyan was telling the truth about JC being in the game. And noting that Cyan would be an auto lynch later if he wasn't.
I consider everything. You should try it. And then spell out what specifically you don't believe about Cyan's claim.
Why am I arguing with you?
Actually, I don't think it's a dumb claim. i think it's a flawed claim, but I think it's a plausible one because, as you can see, it's making a lot of people pause to think about it.
I very easily would have considered that roleclaim with the mock PM I wrote up last page.
I am not suggesting we lynch him BECAUSE of his role claim... I want to lynch him BECAUSE of his behavior. But his roleclaim is not saving him because I see a ton of VERY VERY plausible scenarios where he's scum with that claim.
Also, it is the same as the Caedere roleclaim. Don't stand here and say "You're wrong but I don't want to talk about it." That's skating discussion, and you know how I feel about that. If you don't want to talk about it, then stop giving me your opinion on it.
I am not sure if this is aimed at me, because I answered this already... which, you should have read
But if he dies and does not die, I do not want him to die again. Maybe MTGS has a different history, but IMO, I do not see Azrael designing a role that does not die to a lynch but is not town aligned. And if he did, well, we can investigate him later if we need to... but I'd see that as STRONG proof of his alignment.
If people can support lynching LJ to investigate atl, why does lynching LJ to investigate Cyan is considered a waste of time and ability? Both have claimed. And both, if speaking the truth, could be a great asset to the town.
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
For some reasons, there is a reluctance to use investigations to confirm people or to find scums right now, what with calling for an atl's vig ability instead of investigative and the difficult concept of lynching LJ as a townie to gain an investigation.
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
See, I would think that that would a) give the mafia people to shoot, and b) do less good (with 20+ people) than later in the game (with <7 people).
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
I think it would be too late to be of any real use at that point. I think at that point a scum has gained too many townie points and is firmly entrenched as someone to be trusted.
I think it should be used somewhere after night 2 and and by night 5. This is assuming one lynch and one NK per part, adjustable pending more kills showing up. So somewhere between 19 and 13 remaining players, what I would consider the mid game.
And since I never liked the idea of voting LJ today, Unvote: LJ.
PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
Matrix Mafia Town MVP
Medieval Mafia Mafia MVP
Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
This is interesting and in my mind another reason I don’t believe you Cyan.
In the magnum opus of mafia games, Sin City Mafia also created and moderated by Azrael and based on the Outstanding Dimension Films movie Sin City.
Directed by Robert Rodriguez and Frank Miller, with Special Guest Director Quentin Tarantino and Starring Bruce Willis, the lovely Jessica Alba, Elijah Wood and a cast of Thousands!
Now available on a Special 2 disc DVD set From dimension Films Home Video.
In that movie, err…. Game I had a role. I played the role of a Bodyguard and I was charged with trying to protect one of two valuable town roles. I would be able to protect only one of the two and I would redirect that kill from my target to myself, dying in the process. As the Bodyguard in Sin City Mafia I did not have multiple lives. I was not unblockable if a role blocker targeted me. In short I was not a ridiculously overpowered role like the one you are describing. My role was crafted to be a helpful support role and showed the attention to detail and game balance that I have found to be hallmarks of an Azrael designed and moderated mafia game.
Now, I know this is not Sin City Mafia and it is possible that Azrael has abandoned his normal style of crafting a detailed, thoughtful, flavorful and above all else Well Balance Mafia Game here, but I don’t think so.
The role you have pieced together, revealing each piece of additional ability as public opinion closes into finally dealing with you, is so completely different from the balanced roles Azrael is known for that it is in my opinion not remotely credible.
As before, my vote is staying where it is.
Calvin & Hobbs Mafia, Mafia MVP
X-Men Mafia Town MVP
Simpson's Mafia - best use of character
Mtgnews Mafia Mafia - Town Madman
Mythos Mafia: the Dunwich Massacre Town MVP
English Literature Mafia Town MVP
Best Role-Playing Sin City Mafia
Werewolf Mafia - Mafia MVP
Doctor Mafia - Mafia MVP
Mafia: Escape from the Cylons - Town MVP
Lost Mafia - Co SK Winner with Kops
Random Mafia 3 - Town MVP
I can, however, point out that it makes no sense for the T800 to want to protect anyone other than John Connor. It DOES make sense for the T800 to have multiple lives, because he is extremely dedicated to his mission.
Also, the points that you are arguing must not be true are all 100% verifiable. Whether or not I take the kill automatically is easily proven. Whether or not I have multiple lives is even more easily proven.
The fact that you feel the need to try to outguess the Mod to justify your vote at this point only tells me that you're scum trying to make your vote seem as convincing as possible, hence the need to reinforce it again.
You're arguing that Cyan's claim would be too bad as scum to lynch, because he'd be caught out as a liar eventually. I am arguing that we can and do and should lynch people who make bad claims that would get caught out eventually, because they actually are scum.
I do not understand how you are still trying to argue that Cyan wouldn't make a bad claim as scum. It happens. Deal with it.
The point which I have made and Hawkeye has made and loran has made and several others still holds- Cyan's claimed role is ridiculously imbalanced for the town. Even in the worst case scenario, he gets "lynched" and we confirm him, confirm Connor by association, and he's still bodyguarding Connor's role with no-one actually dying. The best case scenario we have a power role who takes 3 kills to get at as well as the confirmations. This is really too good a deal for the town to be true. Cyan's only answer to this point appears to be that we're "gaming the mod". You could say this about any claim analysis. Cyan himself is "gaming the mod" by claiming that John Connor must be a town role. It's not gaming the mod. It's deciding what's likely to be true based on experience.
The Connors? Since when is it now the Connors? Before it's always been John, alone.
PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
Matrix Mafia Town MVP
Medieval Mafia Mafia MVP
Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
I'm curious. Did you ever see someone who didn't have 2 lives claim pretending that he did? I'm fairly sure I've never seen that, and I'm fairly sure the reason is that that claim always gets tested. More often than not, it gets tested immediately under the theory that "if it's true, we're not that much worse off." I don't see how anyone can reasonably argue that Cyan would have made that claim hoping/expecting NOT to get tested.
Furthermore, as you seem to realize, I am not, in fact saying that the claim is "too bad" for a scum to make (although it certainly would be a crazily reckless claim). My primary point has always been that if he's lying, he's going to get caught. We do not need to test him today.
I think it's premature for you or anyone to be declaring such a hypothetical set-up "ridiculously imbalanced" when you (at least in theory) have no idea what the John Connor role is or what the scum would have on the other side of it.
And frankly, Cyan's last post has pretty much removed the last lingering doubts I had about him. I now think he's town.
Who was your #2 guy again?
Why is it premature?
Seriously, Axel, you're arguing that the scenarios in which Cyan could be scum with his claim are too narrow to be believed, based on rolename. Raf is claiming that the scenarios in which Cyan is town could be town with his claim are too narrow to be believed, based on game setup speculation. There is no serious difference in the nature of those arguments. The only difference is that Raf is assuming that Cyan wants to survive for the day while you are assuming that Cyan wants to survive forever. Oh, and the fact that Raf's argument isn't completely wrecked by taking away that assumption. And that Raf's assumption fits better with the motivation of a scum than yours.
Mafia MVP BM Mafia
Mafia MVP Matrix Mafia
It is not gaming the mod to state clearly what everyone who has played in an Azrael designed mafia game already knows. His games are interesting. They are very well designed and above almost all else they are balance. The reason that they are so well designed and balanced, in my opinion, is that Azrael take pride in presenting a game that will be challenging and fun for everyone that plays in the game. There is no place for a role like the one you have slowly evolved and piecemealed together. It is an unbalanced mixture of abilities that you have duct taped onto your real role, each intended to make you seem more desirable to keep around and presented only when you feel the need to try to stave off a town lynch vote.
Anyone who still is uncertain about you need only look at your early game play and ask themselves if that is the play of a player trying to improve the position of the town or just his own position. They should look at the case Grak presented against you and how you reacted to it. how you tried to ignore it, then acknowledged it and said you would address it, then refused to address it and only after repeatedly be called on the carpet on this refusal did you attempt to address it.
Then came the first version of your role claim. If you had addressed Grak's case like you had said you would you most likely would not have had to role claim at all. Then you piecemeal the claim and after each new ability, each as good or better then the last, you are questioned about your role and a new ability comes out. There is also how you completely misrepresented an entire post of mine not just missing my points but completely getting them wrong and presenting false information.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2103078&postcount=1105
&
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2103726&postcount=1118
Then there is this:
So, how do you explain this? Slip of the tongue? New ability you have decided to toss out there?
Calvin & Hobbs Mafia, Mafia MVP
X-Men Mafia Town MVP
Simpson's Mafia - best use of character
Mtgnews Mafia Mafia - Town Madman
Mythos Mafia: the Dunwich Massacre Town MVP
English Literature Mafia Town MVP
Best Role-Playing Sin City Mafia
Werewolf Mafia - Mafia MVP
Doctor Mafia - Mafia MVP
Mafia: Escape from the Cylons - Town MVP
Lost Mafia - Co SK Winner with Kops
Random Mafia 3 - Town MVP
Could I just pull you up there?
Some machines are town (hi arim!). The town goal is not to wipe out all machines. You just made what we in the trade call an "oopsie".
This reinforces my feel that whether or not you're mafia, you and Connors cannot be town. However, if you're just a neutral, it might not be necessary to lynch you. unvote.
Also, it is true that your claim of 2 lives can be verified, but not without, you know, killing you. So as a way to let us test you without lynching you, it leaves a lot to be desired.
Cyan claimed that at like lynch -1 though. After having just finished DotA in which lynching the double-lifer "just to test" was a mistake. He had his back to the wall and had reason to believe people would be slower to auto-test the claim this time, and wouldn't you know, they have been.