That said, the first post strongly implies which group is the catalyst behind the creation of the mafia.
Though I consider it very likely for members of that group not to be scum, and members not of that group to be scum, too.
Spoon is mostly a moot point, atm. He's either an alt of a player in this game, which will become increasingly more obvious as the game goes on, he's an entirely seperate player, in which case he's just the same as anyone else in this game, or he's something else, and whilst I have a couple of sensible ideas as to what he could be, assuming neither of the above is true, neither seem like particularly good reasons to lynch him, even assuming they are true. Best plan is pretty much to hold him up to the same activity level as everyone else unless we get a reason not to, and treat him based on his posting.
I support this idea - not much sense in getting bogged down with metagaming, particularly this early in the game.
unvote loran16, because I might forget later.
Oh dear, it looks like we're in for a long first day.
I am lukewarm about the whole roleplaying thing. As long as people remember they're playing mafia, and don't do dumbass stuff like revealing info for no reason, then they're ok. I have started to see it creep in, though. I.E, it's fairly obvious what gender anyone who decides to do the RP thing is, for example.
And I have seen some physical descriptions in here already too.
I just wasn't sure if it was intentional or not. It could simply be an accident.
You weren't sure if it was intentional that he said "We"? Perhaps you thought he meant to say "I", but accidentally pressed "shift + w" and "e" instead and didn't notice? Pull the other one, it has bells on.
You were fishing at the gimmick. Nothing wrong with that, except that you got defensive and lied the first time someone prodded at you.
Okay, stop triple posting. Its irritating as all hell. Also, stop acting like you're a vet and we're newbs. You're not really talking to morons here.
In otherwords you're pissing me off. And i dont mind a lot of people.
First of all, posting as things occur to me makes my responses more honest and stops me from coloring them with things I read later. For example, I came back and edited this post before posting it because I decided to rephrase something. If I had just posted this, you'd have seen my original thoughts and not my filtered thoughts after having read the rest of the thread.
It's smart, it's honest, and it's the best way for me to play mafia. That being said, if it's against he conventions of this site, I don't have a problem with combining my posts into one.
But.... why? I mean, have you ever seriously thought about it? Why the need to combine thoughts into a single long post? Cause there will be times when it will be a long post. ANd when people see long posts, they tend to skip them.
Second of all, someone didn't understand why discussing flavor was bad on day 1. I explained to them why it was. If you have a problem with this, then maybe you should explain things to people instead? How about, the next time someone says something that's bad, I'll just ask you to handle it instead, k? Then you can tell them why it's bad, and I won't have to act like a vet talking to a bunch of nubs. Sound fair?
Also, what's with the adversarial attidue? You just seem all kinds of ready to swing at people. Why is that? Is it because you're trying to kill me in my sleep? Do you have something against me personally? Or maybe you just have some kinda vendetta against misetings?
Quote from Cyan »
I had advanced knowledge of Grakthis' demeanor and antics, and have sufficiently steeled myself against such. Hopefully everyone can do the same so that he's not just a huge distraction(though I daresay it's almost too late for that).I had advanced knowledge of Grakthis' demeanor and antics, and have sufficiently steeled myself against such. Hopefully everyone can do the same so that he's not just a huge distraction(though I daresay it's almost too late for that).
See? This is a smart man. If you don't get distracted by trying to think I'm "talking down to you" when I'm really just explaining something to someone, then you won't have to make posts where you feel the need to tell everyone how you don't like me.
Cyan and I should get along just fine.
Quote from Xyre »
Okay. So if I were to say the spoon boy probably isn't in the game and Spoon is a red herring, you would say...?
Well, you'd have hypothetically just told us that you aren't the kid.... oh god... why did C&Ping your post make my font change? Fix it
Quote from CP »
Lastly, the whole point of mafia is to parcel out information. We can do it deliberately, under the control of the town, or we can do it accidentally and give everyone a hard time and hope the best analysts are on the town's side.
But do you see why the former is prefered over the latter?
Also, I don't care if people want to talk in character... I mean, it's bad mafia strategy because it gives away info, but if it's fun, then by all means. Mafia is supposed to be a game first and foremost, so have fun.
What *will* annoy me endlessly is if people NARRATE themselves.
I don't know about anyone else, but I'm particularly curious to see what a votecount shows (this being because there are a couple votes out there where I have absolutely no idea if they mean anything at all). I would be unvoting "Spoon" right now, but this is not a normal situation and I want to know if my vote has any relevance. That being said, I am with RafK and ZDS; an explaination to Raf's question would be greatly appreciated.
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If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
@Grakthis: Agreed. My opinion has been well-voiced on the multi-posting rule having no place in a mafia forum; it's ridiculous. Also, Loran goes to Duke, that should be enough to explain his attitude problem, eh?
/on-topic
I, too, am curious to Xyre's response to Raf's question about "We". That hardly seems like an "accident" that could happen. I did it once in Sin City, but it was intentional. (Then I re-read my PM and realized I probably shouldn't do that, as it might tip off I was crazy, and I was supposed to believe I was sane, even though I wasn't really. Or something like that. Anyhow, I digress.)
Also, I think that the RPers need to be more cautious in how they phrase things- Pod made a very good point about them betraying things subconsiously (gender). Seems that Grak is basically expanding on why setup speculation is frowned upon as a town, agreed there as well.
Says the guy from Kentucky....they're not exactly the brightest of the barrel there.
Second of all, someone didn't understand why discussing flavor was bad on day 1. I explained to them why it was. If you have a problem with this, then maybe you should explain things to people instead? How about, the next time someone says something that's bad, I'll just ask you to handle it instead, k? Then you can tell them why it's bad, and I won't have to act like a vet talking to a bunch of nubs. Sound fair?
Lol, you're funny. I'm going to let you play your way and laugh my ass off. But seriously, a few of the players you're talking to know exactly what they're doing. And by few i mean most.
BTW, let a few people role play. Take Hawkeye for example, he's a great mafia player, who also is amazing at roleplaying in these games. If he wants to roleplay, im 99% confident he wont goof and give up important information, (assuming he's town). He certainly won't do what DYH did in sin city mafia (Stupid redneck crying for LOLA).
Also, what's with the adversarial attidue? You just seem all kinds of ready to swing at people.
* loran16 shoves trident in grathkis' face.
Why is that?
Is it because you're trying to kill me in my sleep?
Yes
Do you have something against me personally?
Don't know you.
Or maybe you just have some kinda vendetta against misetings?
Neutral opinion really...on one hand im not the biggest fan of annorax (though i think he's a tings reject actually) but on the other hand, i don't go there so i don't care. Sort of like my opinion of mtgnews.
* loran16 sheathes duke blue trident. I won't be needing this in here.
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Says the guy from Kentucky....they're not exactly the brightest of the barrel there.
See, I am not sure if I should take this as a joke, or point out that so far in this game, you're the only one throwing around insults.
Also, on a totally un-game related and joking note: f duke. But I am also not a UK fan, so f them too. Go Cards.
Quote from Lauren »
Lol, you're funny. I'm going to let you play your way and laugh my ass off. But seriously, a few of the players you're talking to know exactly what they're doing. And by few i mean most.
First of all, I think you need to go back and see who I was talking to. Because I was only talking to like 2 people. And one of them clearly didn't understand the dangers of discussing flavor.
Second of all, if someone knows what they are doing, then it will be obvious from how they play, and I won't NEED to correct them, so I hope you're right.
Third of all, I am glad you find me amusing. I prefer to let my results speak for themselves rather than argue about my style of play. But let me give you a starting point: Azrael reached out to me at MT and specifically invited me to come over here and play in this game. So if you have some respect for our mod, it would be a good idea to give me the benefit of the doubt.
Quote from Lauren »
BTW, let a few people role play. Take Hawkeye for example, he's a great mafia player, who also is amazing at roleplaying in these games. If he wants to roleplay, im 99% confident he wont goof and give up important information, (assuming he's town). He certainly won't do what DYH did in sin city mafia (Stupid redneck crying for LOLA).
Again, anyone who wants to talk in character won't get made fun of by me. I've been known to make jokes about my character hidden in posts that are later funny and in fact, in my frist mafia game, the mod let me have fun my my roles kill methods as long as they were in character. But if *you* get to be annoyed by tripple posting, then I don't see how *I* am not justified in being annoyed by someone who wants to narrate their characters actions. I don't think we need "and the door slammed shut behind Grakthis as he scanned the room with a wary eye." That will just make me want to lynch people.
Quote from Lauren »
Yes
Well, then. Vote: Lauren. That was easy.
Quote from Lauren »
Neutral opinion really...on one hand im not the biggest fan of annorax (though i think he's a tings reject actually) but on the other hand, i don't go there so i don't care. Sort of like my opinion of mtgnews.
You weren't sure if it was intentional that he said "We"? Perhaps you thought he meant to say "I", but accidentally pressed "shift + w" and "e" instead and didn't notice? Pull the other one, it has bells on.
You were fishing at the gimmick. Nothing wrong with that, except that you got defensive and lied the first time someone prodded at you.
What do you say to that?
vote Xyre
There are any number of simple explanations for it, and I just wanted to make sure it was a mere mistake. His second post, besides just answering the question outright, confirmed this by using "I". Now please unvote me, both of you, this pseudo-wagon is utterly ridiculous. I have NOT fished at his role, I have merely clarified that he doesn't have a posting restriction. This was something that him posting a second time would clarify, because while using "we" once is an excusable mistake, a second time would be a posting restriction. Indeed, part of my strategy was to see how he responded to my question. The question itself wasn't important.
And your claim that I'm fishing the gimmick is absurd, and I'd really expect better from a player like you, Rafk. The fact that it's the gimmick is pure coincidence. Stop being irrational.
Quote from Grakthis »
Well, you'd have hypothetically just told us that you aren't the kid.... oh god... why did C&Ping your post make my font change? Fix it
1) When C&Ping, add the quote tags before you go retrieving the text. Then, once you've got it, just paste it between the tags, then start typing outside the tags. Presto.
2) Thank you. I have now concluded you're full of it.
Also, for anyone who's still strung up on the "Spoon is a spoon" thing, consider that there's a player named Spoon on WIFOM who plays quite a lot, judging by his post count. It could just be this is his first foray into the forum. Besides, if he were a gimmick in the nature of Squiggler from Blood Moon, why is it that his registration date is July 2006? Just food for thought.
There are any number of simple explanations for it, and I just wanted to make sure it was a mere mistake. His second post, besides just answering the question outright, confirmed this by using "I". Now please unvote me, both of you, this pseudo-wagon is utterly ridiculous. I have NOT fished at his role, I have merely clarified that he doesn't have a posting restriction. This was something that him posting a second time would clarify, because while using "we" once is an excusable mistake, a second time would be a posting restriction. Indeed, part of my strategy was to see how he responded to my question. The question itself wasn't important.
And your claim that I'm fishing the gimmick is absurd, and I'd really expect better from a player like you, Rafk. The fact that it's the gimmick is pure coincidence. Stop being irrational.
Xyre, you do seem to be overly defensive of yourself at the moment. This, to me, comes across worse than what you are defending yourself against!
See, I am not sure if I should take this as a joke, or point out that so far in this game, you're the only one throwing around insults.
Also, on a totally un-game related and joking note: f duke. But I am also not a UK fan, so f them too. Go Cards.
If it wasnt clear, the Duke Kentucky jokes are a running joke between me and DYH (and occasionally axelrod, who's a UNC Grad). Didn't know you were from the state (though ill root for louisville over kentucky). This was not meant to be an insult and DYH knows this.
First of all, I think you need to go back and see who I was talking to. Because I was only talking to like 2 people. And one of them clearly didn't understand the dangers of discussing flavor.
Second of all, if someone knows what they are doing, then it will be obvious from how they play, and I won't NEED to correct them, so I hope you're right.
Third of all, I am glad you find me amusing. I prefer to let my results speak for themselves rather than argue about my style of play. But let me give you a starting point: Azrael reached out to me at MT and specifically invited me to come over here and play in this game. So if you have some respect for our mod, it would be a good idea to give me the benefit of the doubt.
I never said i thought you were a bad player (though abbey hasnt really been a good player here, and he's another tinger). I just dislike you talking down to people.
Again, anyone who wants to talk in character won't get made fun of by me. I've been known to make jokes about my character hidden in posts that are later funny and in fact, in my frist mafia game, the mod let me have fun my my roles kill methods as long as they were in character. But if *you* get to be annoyed by tripple posting, then I don't see how *I* am not justified in being annoyed by someone who wants to narrate their characters actions. I don't think we need "and the door slammed shut behind Grakthis as he scanned the room with a wary eye." That will just make me want to lynch people.
Well, then. Vote: Lauren. That was easy.
Har Har, a. Loran's the last name of the star wars character i took my nick from and b. I'm a guy. You're very funny.
No one likes 'rax. No one. He's a pedophile.
Probably. Theres a lot of them these days.
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Xyre, you do seem to be overly defensive of yourself at the moment. This to me, comes across worse than what you are defending yourself against!
Errr, i hate this argument wizz. Not sure how much mafia you've played, but oftentimes certain especially vocal players will get defensive when accused for what they think are stupid and baseless reasons.
Which i could perfectly see Xyre perceiving this all as. I agree that Xyre was fishing earlier, but i dont really think this is too worth following up, except that its day 1.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Errr, i hate this argument wizz. Not sure how much mafia you've played, but oftentimes certain especially vocal players will get defensive when accused for what they think are stupid and baseless reasons.
Which i could perfectly see Xyre perceiving this all as. I agree that Xyre was fishing earlier, but i dont really think this is too worth following up, except that its day 1.
I was just noting what I was seeing, that's all. I haven't played much mafia though, is it that obvious?
I was just noting what I was seeing, that's all. I haven't played much mafia though, is it that obvious?
I'm just saying calling being "defensive" a scum tell is just a way for any wagon to spiral out of control into a lynch the first chance possible.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
So many topics getting so blown out of proportion.
Xyre's fish on a PR: It's a question that everyone seems to get jumped on when first revealed. I don't think Xyre asking about it is a scumtell or scummy and even with what seemed to be a poor response, I don't hold his asking against him.
RP'ing: If people want to do it, they are more than free to do so. One person lecturing about the do's and don't's shouldn't make a bit of difference. If they disseminate useful information, then it will be dealt with at that point. If a person is a good rp'er, then there's no fear of this.
Spoon: Who cares who/what/how/where/when he/she/it is/was/will be? This is the first day, 2 pages (@ 40 ppp) in. Any sort of reasonable information regarding the entity that is Spoon is likely to come out when the time is right. What is speculating about such an open-ended topic going to accomplish now except to generate a lot of bickering as to what to do.
Grak: So far from what I've seen from his posting, he doesn't seem any more infuriating than chamber. To me it seems as if people are reading too much into his posts. Don't read his posts with a chip on your shoulder and then it won't come across as him speaking condescendingly.
Thus ends today's Public Service Announcement. This was only a test.
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I agree that a vote should be kept on Spoon until Az graces us with a votecount. The fact that the gimmick has been around for a year says to me that it may have been created around the time that this game was in development.
The fact still remains, however, that this gimmick cannot have been created for this game, seeing as it predates this game by a year.
And it's not possible that Azrael started designing this game a year ago?
Quote from Vampyre »
Grak: So far from what I've seen from his posting, he doesn't seem any more infuriating than chamber. To me it seems as if people are reading too much into his posts. Don't read his posts with a chip on your shoulder and then it won't come across as him speaking condescendingly.
I love you. :wub:
Quote from Lauren »
If it wasnt clear, the Duke Kentucky jokes are a running joke between me and DYH (and occasionally axelrod, who's a UNC Grad). Didn't know you were from the state (though ill root for louisville over kentucky). This was not meant to be an insult and DYH knows this.
OK. That was my guess, but it's good to know for sure.
Quote from Lauren »
I never said i thought you were a bad player (though abbey hasnt really been a good player here, and he's another tinger). I just dislike you talking down to people.
Strange. I find abbey to be very competent. Maybe not outstanding, but def someone who is welcome in any game I play in.
Of course, I value coherant posting and plausible analysis over actually catching scum. Wacky, I know, but you have to see it from my POV.
See, my attitude is that it's *my* job to catch scum. It's everyone elses job to post things I can read without my head exploding so that I can analyze them and figure out if they are scum or not.
I will do my best not to talk down to people. But there are two things you can do to help me:
1) Give me the benefit of the doubt and assume I am not being beligerant or talking down to you until it's obvious that I am.
2) When I do, point it out, and ask me to stop.
Quote from Lauren »
Har Har, a. Loran's the last name of the star wars character i took my nick from and b. I'm a guy. You're very funny.
Lauren can be a guys name too. I knew a french guy who's name was Lauren.
Also, it's not meant to be insulting. I tend to give people nicknames because it helps me distinguish them in my mind and normally the nickname is easier to type.
Overall thoughts so far: Xyre feels like someone with a good grasp of the game, and his responses thus far read as very adversarial and defensive. Not two traits I expect to see from a townie this early, but they don't mean anything till I get a better read on what kind of player he is. However, Wizzie's immediate leap onto Xyre is worth keeping an eye on once we know more about these two players. I'd be willing to bet they are not scum together based on Wizzie's quick response. Keep this in mind if one of them shows up as mafia.
@Grak: Xyre actually used to have a quote of mine from a game we played together in his sig, something to the effect of "It's amazing the analysis Xyre can put out there when he's not being bandwaggoned to death as a vanilla townie." Of course, he was scum that game piling on a bandwagon I started on his mafia mate, so yeah, I guess he was pretty right-on.
That said, @pod: his defense is reminding me of his play in 24 mafia when he was attacked for his faked "$" posting restriction and a comment he made about a roleblocker (IIRC). That'd probably be a good starting point.
And it's not possible that Azrael started designing this game a year ago?
Anything's possible, I suppose. The fact that Spoon, despite having registered a year ago, hasn't posted anything up until this game, adds credence to that... as does the fact that he didn't actually post in the signup thread. Point for Grak. You're earned back a bit of my respect for that idea.
Overall thoughts so far: Xyre feels like someone with a good grasp of the game, and his responses thus far read as very adversarial and defensive. Not two traits I expect to see from a townie this early, but they don't mean anything till I get a better read on what kind of player he is. However, Wizzie's immediate leap onto Xyre is worth keeping an eye on once we know more about these two players. I'd be willing to bet they are not scum together based on Wizzie's quick response. Keep this in mind if one of them shows up as mafia.
I don't think I'm being defensive in the sense that I'm trying to pretend I'm not scum. I know I'm not scum.
What bothers me about the whole "Xyre's a defensive meanie" claim is that it seems to be an extension of the idea that defensiveness is scumminess. However, in mafia, you often need to defend yourself. I consider all my arguments merely defenses against me being lynched. Indeed, the defensiveness argument is irrational both in general and as a mafia strategy. It's rationalizing my argument as me trying to avoid suspicion. Of course that's what I'm doing - I don't want to die! But that doesn't make me scum.
Which reminds me - have any of you read Catch-22? There's a scene in the book in which the Chaplain is being interrogated by CID men, and every time he tries to defend himself, they argue that that's just indicative of how he's evil. They then proceed to convict him of various crimes, including those he might commit in the future. That's kind of how I feel. Every time I rebut your arguments, someone's going to say "well, only a scum would rebut my argument, therefore he's clearly scum". That person is doing more harm in that way to the town than I am, period.
The worst part of it, though, is that someone's going to skim over this, say I'm being defensive again, and vote for me. That person is bandwagonning for its own sake, and that person, not me, is the real scum here.
@Xyre: Your last post was exactly how I think about that argument (being too defensive). I view it in the same light as the argument that someone is appearing so town that they must be mafia. Those arguments are so absurd that I have a hard time not yelling at my computer screen over them.
I mean, if people want to make those arguments, you must also argue that someone is appearing so scummy, they must be town. Completely ridiculous.
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If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
Also, it's not meant to be insulting. I tend to give people nicknames because it helps me distinguish them in my mind and normally the nickname is easier to type.
So the nickname you give me that's supposedly easier to type is my regular name + an "e"? Gotcha, that makes all the sense in the world.
I have to agree with Xyre in regards to the "Oh but a scum would do/say exactly that in your situation." I've had it happen to me in the past and it's truly frustrating.
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@Xyre: Your last post was exactly how I think about that argument (being too defensive). I view it in the same light as the argument that someone is appearing so town that they must be mafia. Those arguments are so absurd that I have a hard time not yelling at my computer screen over them.
I mean, if people want to make those arguments, you must also argue that someone is appearing so scummy, they must be town. Completely ridiculous.
Actually, that's not true at all. Just because one premise is perceived as true does not mean the converse must be also.
At it's core, either case above is WIFOM, though, and not a reliable stance.
This doesn't mean you can't watch for significant playstyle changes, however, from game to game. For example, if we hadn't killed off all the premier analysts in Court Mafia quickly, RafK might have honestly been caught out for simply being too nice that game.
I think we're on a complete tangent at this point, however. Sorry.
For the record, Xyre's defense is satisfactory to me at this point. Asking a direct question in order to gain an "I" or "We" response is a legitimate play.
Actually, that's not true at all. Just because one premise is perceived as true does not mean the converse must be also.
At it's core, either case above is WIFOM, though, and not a reliable stance.
This doesn't mean you can't watch for significant playstyle changes, however, from game to game. For example, if we hadn't killed off all the premier analysts in Court Mafia quickly, RafK might have honestly been caught out for simply being too nice that game.
I think we're on a complete tangent at this point, however. Sorry.
For the record, Xyre's defense is satisfactory to me at this point. Asking a direct question in order to gain an "I" or "We" response is a legitimate play.
My point wasn't that the end statement was a valid argument. It was more of an attempt to prove just how stupid such arguments are. I'm glad that at least that point got across.
Okay, /tangent
In essance, what I was saying was that I had wanted an answer about Xyre's question, I found the answer satisfactory, and I'm merely trying to show Wizzpig the absurdaties of such an argument (one which I'm willing to forgive him for because of his newb status; it's how we learn).
To see where votes actually lie, I'd like to request a votecount.
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If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
Indeed. Also, didnt realize i was voting Xyre. Unvote.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Continuing the trend of actions that don't make sense the first time you look at them, Vote Spoon. I have my reasons, so please don't vote for me. Thanks.
I do love it when I'm voted for without explanation.
Unvote.
Colored Voting? Hmmm. Spoon, do me a favor and vote yourself twice. Consider it kind of a test.
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Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Anyway, @Grakthis: I was particularly referencing ZDS' request for information, not the RPing. I'm reasonably confident that the only people who are going to be seriously hampered by small revelations about their role characters are the people who want to lie about their roles in the future, which is something I'm all for. But my original point is that ZDS' suggestion shouldn't be considered 'giving free info to the mafia' because it's info being revealed under the control of the town. If the mafia actually need the kind of information that revealed that way, then the mafia already have information that we can't take into account; there's no reason to play around stuff like that when the town generally needs it far more to make decisions.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
IMHO, there is something definitely fishy about Spoon. He joined one year ago, he has no posts outside of this thread - even requesting to join the game. His name shows up in blue on the votecount, and his name has obvious connotations with the theme of the game.
I feel I am speaking the obvious here, but should we be doing anything about spoon?
Not inconsequential: it pointed out that you are voting me with an implied reason without giving that reason. This is more or less pointless; no one will be able to judge whether your reasons are satisfactory or not if you don't give them.
I don't object to the vote or the theoretical reason. I just don't think the vote has much of a point.
Yes. We should wait until he acts scummy, and then lynch him. Or else we should wait until we know more about his role, and then make an educated decision. We should also not jump to conclusions.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Not inconsequential: it pointed out that you are voting me with an implied reason without giving that reason. This is more or less pointless; no one will be able to judge whether your reasons are satisfactory or not if you don't give them.
I don't object to the vote or the theoretical reason. I just don't think the vote has much of a point.
And for you, Loran: Vote Spoon.
Vote Spoon.
Fair enough. One of its motivations was simply to get you posting. The other I'll leave alone, along with the vote itself.
Sorry to bother you, but mr. azrael, can we get a vote count?
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Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
@Xyre: Your last post was exactly how I think about that argument (being too defensive). I view it in the same light as the argument that someone is appearing so town that they must be mafia. Those arguments are so absurd that I have a hard time not yelling at my computer screen over them.
I mean, if people want to make those arguments, you must also argue that someone is appearing so scummy, they must be town. Completely ridiculous.
This is to both you and Xyre and it's a theory I espose regularly that both agrees and disagrees with you:
Mafia conventions are blunt objects not precise tools.
Saying "acting defensive is a scum tell" is clearly a blunt weapon that will hit the wrong target pretty frequently. Because, let's be honest, townies often act defensive.
But that doesn't mean it can't be honed and used properly to catch scum. It just has to be more precise. You have to focus on *what* that player is being defensive about, what their *past* behavior is in similar situations and the *tone* of their posts.
The "medium sized" tell works in the same way (what you call being "too" townie). If you act too medium sized in a way that is forced, it can be a tell.
So, yes, you're right. Just calling someone "defensive" is inneffective. You need to know where the line is between "appropriatly defensive" and "too defensive." So dismissing the tell altogether is as bad as following the tell blindly.
I realize this is more "theory", but it's relevant to the discussion at hand. Later in the game when I have a better feel for Xyre, I may come back to this and use it against him depending on how I read his style of play.
Quote from CP »
there's no reason to play around stuff like that when the town generally needs it far more to make decisions.there's no reason to play around stuff like that when the town generally needs it far more to make decisions.
Fair point. You will find I am "pro" revealing info (other than power roles, obv) and then letting the town discuss it openly. *but* revealing that info should be done intentionally, after planning it out, and openly so that everyone sees it. Like, the extreme example, is if you're going to tip off that you have some great ability, make it obvious enough that the doc will see it too, as well as the mafia.
I worry about people who accidentally reveal more than they intend to.
EBWOP: woah, having 4 votes on someone this early is silliness.
vote: abbey because he needs to post more. I know he's been online
I thought abbey had said in a game that he was getting a real job and was going to be cutting back on mafia? Incidentally, before your comment i didnt even realize he was in this game.
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Mafia MVP Harry Potter Mafia!
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Matrix? Like in the movies?, you know the Matirx movies with, oh who was that actor again, Christopher Reeves?. No, he was Superman. Ah... Keanu Reeves, yeah Keanu Reeves. Great movies. You a big fan or somethig?
Mister Hawkeye, I'm not sure you grasp the gravity of the situation. We are the Matrix. The Matrix flows and the Matrix changes.
Mister Xyre has not transgressed severely. I have known him in past incarnations of the Matrix, and he has displayed similar pathologies when aligned with the forces of good. I focus my gaze instead on one whose attack on Xyre smacks of opportunism.
Vote: ZeDorkSlipeur. Your code requires correction.
No, what he probably said was that he was getting into a real game of mafia and was going to cut back on his job. You think he'd post more, if that were the case, though.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Mister Hawkeye, I'm not sure you grasp the gravity of the situation. We are the Matrix. The Matrix flows and the Matrix changes.
Mister Xyre has not transgressed severely. I have known him in past incarnations of the Matrix, and he has displayed similar pathologies when aligned with the forces of good. I focus my gaze instead on one whose attack on Xyre smacks of opportunism.
Vote: ZeDorkSlipeur. Your code requires correction.
Interesting definition of opportunism, when I go back and read the post. Are you asserting that ZDS, as mafia, has some special need to get Xyre to answer questions? So we should make the assumption then that if ZDS is scum, then Xyre is not. Mostly. Kinda.
Maybe we should lynch ZDS to kinda clear Xyre? Unless of course ZDS isn't scum, in which case we just wasted our time.
Then again, we may as well be pressuring someone. We could do that one of two ways: either just randomly bandwagon someone until they crack and claim, and hope we get lucky, or else force someone to explain something questionable they've already said. Has anyone said anything that might need explaining? No, not really? Okay, I'm keeping my vote on Alx. Who's with me?
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Interesting definition of opportunism, when I go back and read the post. Are you asserting that ZDS, as mafia, has some special need to get Xyre to answer questions?
Assuming you refer to #61, there's actually a vote in that post, did you notice that? I don't know if ZDS "has some special need to get Xyre to answer questions", as you put it, but I see he uses the question as an excuse to vote. That's opportunism.
No, what he probably said was that he was getting into a real game of mafia and was going to cut back on his job. You think he'd post more, if that were the case, though.
He's been in his new job for atleast a month now, and his posting on the internet in general has been pretty normal.
No, he has no excuse for not posting 2-3 times a day here.
Assuming you refer to #61, there's actually a vote in that post, did you notice that? I don't know if ZDS "has some special need to get Xyre to answer questions", as you put it, but I see he uses the question as an excuse to vote. That's opportunism.
Ah, so the claim is that ZDS wants an excuse to have his vote on Xyre. I get it. Do you plan to extend this logic to the point where you can say that ZDS wants Xyre lynched (which is ludicrous, based on the post in question), or are you planning on moving in the direction that ZDS has some kind of ability/role-based need to be voting Xyre?
That might be reasonable, but I don't see how it's especially scummy.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
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I support this idea - not much sense in getting bogged down with metagaming, particularly this early in the game.
unvote loran16, because I might forget later.
Oh dear, it looks like we're in for a long first day.
And I have seen some physical descriptions in here already too.
You weren't sure if it was intentional that he said "We"? Perhaps you thought he meant to say "I", but accidentally pressed "shift + w" and "e" instead and didn't notice? Pull the other one, it has bells on.
You were fishing at the gimmick. Nothing wrong with that, except that you got defensive and lied the first time someone prodded at you.
What do you say to that?
vote Xyre
First of all, posting as things occur to me makes my responses more honest and stops me from coloring them with things I read later. For example, I came back and edited this post before posting it because I decided to rephrase something. If I had just posted this, you'd have seen my original thoughts and not my filtered thoughts after having read the rest of the thread.
It's smart, it's honest, and it's the best way for me to play mafia. That being said, if it's against he conventions of this site, I don't have a problem with combining my posts into one.
But.... why? I mean, have you ever seriously thought about it? Why the need to combine thoughts into a single long post? Cause there will be times when it will be a long post. ANd when people see long posts, they tend to skip them.
Second of all, someone didn't understand why discussing flavor was bad on day 1. I explained to them why it was. If you have a problem with this, then maybe you should explain things to people instead? How about, the next time someone says something that's bad, I'll just ask you to handle it instead, k? Then you can tell them why it's bad, and I won't have to act like a vet talking to a bunch of nubs. Sound fair?
Also, what's with the adversarial attidue? You just seem all kinds of ready to swing at people. Why is that? Is it because you're trying to kill me in my sleep? Do you have something against me personally? Or maybe you just have some kinda vendetta against misetings?
See? This is a smart man. If you don't get distracted by trying to think I'm "talking down to you" when I'm really just explaining something to someone, then you won't have to make posts where you feel the need to tell everyone how you don't like me.
Cyan and I should get along just fine.
Well, you'd have hypothetically just told us that you aren't the kid.... oh god... why did C&Ping your post make my font change? Fix it
But do you see why the former is prefered over the latter?
Also, I don't care if people want to talk in character... I mean, it's bad mafia strategy because it gives away info, but if it's fun, then by all means. Mafia is supposed to be a game first and foremost, so have fun.
What *will* annoy me endlessly is if people NARRATE themselves.
@Grakthis: Agreed. My opinion has been well-voiced on the multi-posting rule having no place in a mafia forum; it's ridiculous. Also, Loran goes to Duke, that should be enough to explain his attitude problem, eh?
/on-topic
I, too, am curious to Xyre's response to Raf's question about "We". That hardly seems like an "accident" that could happen. I did it once in Sin City, but it was intentional. (Then I re-read my PM and realized I probably shouldn't do that, as it might tip off I was crazy, and I was supposed to believe I was sane, even though I wasn't really. Or something like that. Anyhow, I digress.)
Also, I think that the RPers need to be more cautious in how they phrase things- Pod made a very good point about them betraying things subconsiously (gender). Seems that Grak is basically expanding on why setup speculation is frowned upon as a town, agreed there as well.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Says the guy from Kentucky....they're not exactly the brightest of the barrel there.
Lol, you're funny. I'm going to let you play your way and laugh my ass off. But seriously, a few of the players you're talking to know exactly what they're doing. And by few i mean most.
BTW, let a few people role play. Take Hawkeye for example, he's a great mafia player, who also is amazing at roleplaying in these games. If he wants to roleplay, im 99% confident he wont goof and give up important information, (assuming he's town). He certainly won't do what DYH did in sin city mafia (Stupid redneck crying for LOLA).
* loran16 shoves trident in grathkis' face.
Yes Don't know you.
Neutral opinion really...on one hand im not the biggest fan of annorax (though i think he's a tings reject actually) but on the other hand, i don't go there so i don't care. Sort of like my opinion of mtgnews.
* loran16 sheathes duke blue trident. I won't be needing this in here.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
See, I am not sure if I should take this as a joke, or point out that so far in this game, you're the only one throwing around insults.
Also, on a totally un-game related and joking note: f duke. But I am also not a UK fan, so f them too. Go Cards.
First of all, I think you need to go back and see who I was talking to. Because I was only talking to like 2 people. And one of them clearly didn't understand the dangers of discussing flavor.
Second of all, if someone knows what they are doing, then it will be obvious from how they play, and I won't NEED to correct them, so I hope you're right.
Third of all, I am glad you find me amusing. I prefer to let my results speak for themselves rather than argue about my style of play. But let me give you a starting point: Azrael reached out to me at MT and specifically invited me to come over here and play in this game. So if you have some respect for our mod, it would be a good idea to give me the benefit of the doubt.
Again, anyone who wants to talk in character won't get made fun of by me. I've been known to make jokes about my character hidden in posts that are later funny and in fact, in my frist mafia game, the mod let me have fun my my roles kill methods as long as they were in character. But if *you* get to be annoyed by tripple posting, then I don't see how *I* am not justified in being annoyed by someone who wants to narrate their characters actions. I don't think we need "and the door slammed shut behind Grakthis as he scanned the room with a wary eye." That will just make me want to lynch people.
Well, then. Vote: Lauren. That was easy.
No one likes 'rax. No one. He's a pedophile.
There are any number of simple explanations for it, and I just wanted to make sure it was a mere mistake. His second post, besides just answering the question outright, confirmed this by using "I". Now please unvote me, both of you, this pseudo-wagon is utterly ridiculous. I have NOT fished at his role, I have merely clarified that he doesn't have a posting restriction. This was something that him posting a second time would clarify, because while using "we" once is an excusable mistake, a second time would be a posting restriction. Indeed, part of my strategy was to see how he responded to my question. The question itself wasn't important.
And your claim that I'm fishing the gimmick is absurd, and I'd really expect better from a player like you, Rafk. The fact that it's the gimmick is pure coincidence. Stop being irrational.
1) When C&Ping, add the quote tags before you go retrieving the text. Then, once you've got it, just paste it between the tags, then start typing outside the tags. Presto.
2) Thank you. I have now concluded you're full of it.
Also, for anyone who's still strung up on the "Spoon is a spoon" thing, consider that there's a player named Spoon on WIFOM who plays quite a lot, judging by his post count. It could just be this is his first foray into the forum. Besides, if he were a gimmick in the nature of Squiggler from Blood Moon, why is it that his registration date is July 2006? Just food for thought.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Oh. Well.
The fact still remains, however, that this gimmick cannot have been created for this game, seeing as it predates this game by a year.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Xyre, you do seem to be overly defensive of yourself at the moment. This, to me, comes across worse than what you are defending yourself against!
If it wasnt clear, the Duke Kentucky jokes are a running joke between me and DYH (and occasionally axelrod, who's a UNC Grad). Didn't know you were from the state (though ill root for louisville over kentucky). This was not meant to be an insult and DYH knows this.
I never said i thought you were a bad player (though abbey hasnt really been a good player here, and he's another tinger). I just dislike you talking down to people.
Har Har, a. Loran's the last name of the star wars character i took my nick from and b. I'm a guy. You're very funny.
Probably. Theres a lot of them these days.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Errr, i hate this argument wizz. Not sure how much mafia you've played, but oftentimes certain especially vocal players will get defensive when accused for what they think are stupid and baseless reasons.
Which i could perfectly see Xyre perceiving this all as. I agree that Xyre was fishing earlier, but i dont really think this is too worth following up, except that its day 1.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
I was just noting what I was seeing, that's all. I haven't played much mafia though, is it that obvious?
I'm just saying calling being "defensive" a scum tell is just a way for any wagon to spiral out of control into a lynch the first chance possible.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
There is no Spoon.
Random Vote: loran16
This looks like it should be fun.
Xyre's fish on a PR: It's a question that everyone seems to get jumped on when first revealed. I don't think Xyre asking about it is a scumtell or scummy and even with what seemed to be a poor response, I don't hold his asking against him.
RP'ing: If people want to do it, they are more than free to do so. One person lecturing about the do's and don't's shouldn't make a bit of difference. If they disseminate useful information, then it will be dealt with at that point. If a person is a good rp'er, then there's no fear of this.
Spoon: Who cares who/what/how/where/when he/she/it is/was/will be? This is the first day, 2 pages (@ 40 ppp) in. Any sort of reasonable information regarding the entity that is Spoon is likely to come out when the time is right. What is speculating about such an open-ended topic going to accomplish now except to generate a lot of bickering as to what to do.
Grak: So far from what I've seen from his posting, he doesn't seem any more infuriating than chamber. To me it seems as if people are reading too much into his posts. Don't read his posts with a chip on your shoulder and then it won't come across as him speaking condescendingly.
Thus ends today's Public Service Announcement. This was only a test.
PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
Matrix Mafia Town MVP
Medieval Mafia Mafia MVP
Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
Coincidence? Maybe.
And it's not possible that Azrael started designing this game a year ago?
I love you. :wub:
OK. That was my guess, but it's good to know for sure.
Strange. I find abbey to be very competent. Maybe not outstanding, but def someone who is welcome in any game I play in.
Of course, I value coherant posting and plausible analysis over actually catching scum. Wacky, I know, but you have to see it from my POV.
See, my attitude is that it's *my* job to catch scum. It's everyone elses job to post things I can read without my head exploding so that I can analyze them and figure out if they are scum or not.
I will do my best not to talk down to people. But there are two things you can do to help me:
1) Give me the benefit of the doubt and assume I am not being beligerant or talking down to you until it's obvious that I am.
2) When I do, point it out, and ask me to stop.
Lauren can be a guys name too. I knew a french guy who's name was Lauren.
Also, it's not meant to be insulting. I tend to give people nicknames because it helps me distinguish them in my mind and normally the nickname is easier to type.
Overall thoughts so far: Xyre feels like someone with a good grasp of the game, and his responses thus far read as very adversarial and defensive. Not two traits I expect to see from a townie this early, but they don't mean anything till I get a better read on what kind of player he is. However, Wizzie's immediate leap onto Xyre is worth keeping an eye on once we know more about these two players. I'd be willing to bet they are not scum together based on Wizzie's quick response. Keep this in mind if one of them shows up as mafia.
That said, @pod: his defense is reminding me of his play in 24 mafia when he was attacked for his faked "$" posting restriction and a comment he made about a roleblocker (IIRC). That'd probably be a good starting point.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Anything's possible, I suppose. The fact that Spoon, despite having registered a year ago, hasn't posted anything up until this game, adds credence to that... as does the fact that he didn't actually post in the signup thread. Point for Grak. You're earned back a bit of my respect for that idea.
I don't think I'm being defensive in the sense that I'm trying to pretend I'm not scum. I know I'm not scum.
What bothers me about the whole "Xyre's a defensive meanie" claim is that it seems to be an extension of the idea that defensiveness is scumminess. However, in mafia, you often need to defend yourself. I consider all my arguments merely defenses against me being lynched. Indeed, the defensiveness argument is irrational both in general and as a mafia strategy. It's rationalizing my argument as me trying to avoid suspicion. Of course that's what I'm doing - I don't want to die! But that doesn't make me scum.
Which reminds me - have any of you read Catch-22? There's a scene in the book in which the Chaplain is being interrogated by CID men, and every time he tries to defend himself, they argue that that's just indicative of how he's evil. They then proceed to convict him of various crimes, including those he might commit in the future. That's kind of how I feel. Every time I rebut your arguments, someone's going to say "well, only a scum would rebut my argument, therefore he's clearly scum". That person is doing more harm in that way to the town than I am, period.
The worst part of it, though, is that someone's going to skim over this, say I'm being defensive again, and vote for me. That person is bandwagonning for its own sake, and that person, not me, is the real scum here.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
I mean, if people want to make those arguments, you must also argue that someone is appearing so scummy, they must be town. Completely ridiculous.
So the nickname you give me that's supposedly easier to type is my regular name + an "e"? Gotcha, that makes all the sense in the world.
I have to agree with Xyre in regards to the "Oh but a scum would do/say exactly that in your situation." I've had it happen to me in the past and it's truly frustrating.
PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
Matrix Mafia Town MVP
Medieval Mafia Mafia MVP
Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
Actually, that's not true at all. Just because one premise is perceived as true does not mean the converse must be also.
At it's core, either case above is WIFOM, though, and not a reliable stance.
This doesn't mean you can't watch for significant playstyle changes, however, from game to game. For example, if we hadn't killed off all the premier analysts in Court Mafia quickly, RafK might have honestly been caught out for simply being too nice that game.
I think we're on a complete tangent at this point, however. Sorry.
For the record, Xyre's defense is satisfactory to me at this point. Asking a direct question in order to gain an "I" or "We" response is a legitimate play.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
My point wasn't that the end statement was a valid argument. It was more of an attempt to prove just how stupid such arguments are. I'm glad that at least that point got across.
Okay, /tangent
In essance, what I was saying was that I had wanted an answer about Xyre's question, I found the answer satisfactory, and I'm merely trying to show Wizzpig the absurdaties of such an argument (one which I'm willing to forgive him for because of his newb status; it's how we learn).
To see where votes actually lie, I'd like to request a votecount.
1 Alx2- Carrion Pigeons
1 Axelrod-Arimnaes
1 Carrion Pigeons-Dagger
1 Grakthis-Ljustus
1 Hawkeye7-Wizzpig
2 Loran16-Vampyr, Athos
1 Spoon-Atlseal
1 Sutherlands-Spoon
4 xyre-Loran16, Rafaelk, ZDS, Grakthis
2 zedorkslipeur-Axelrod, alx2
9 Not Voting- Fadeblue, DYH, Hawkeye7, Abbeygargoyle, Cyan,
Xyre, Pod, Hvir, Sutherlands
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Unvote.
About as much as I love inconsequential posts.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Colored Voting? Hmmm. Spoon, do me a favor and vote yourself twice. Consider it kind of a test.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Anyway, @Grakthis: I was particularly referencing ZDS' request for information, not the RPing. I'm reasonably confident that the only people who are going to be seriously hampered by small revelations about their role characters are the people who want to lie about their roles in the future, which is something I'm all for. But my original point is that ZDS' suggestion shouldn't be considered 'giving free info to the mafia' because it's info being revealed under the control of the town. If the mafia actually need the kind of information that revealed that way, then the mafia already have information that we can't take into account; there's no reason to play around stuff like that when the town generally needs it far more to make decisions.
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I feel I am speaking the obvious here, but should we be doing anything about spoon?
Not inconsequential: it pointed out that you are voting me with an implied reason without giving that reason. This is more or less pointless; no one will be able to judge whether your reasons are satisfactory or not if you don't give them.
I don't object to the vote or the theoretical reason. I just don't think the vote has much of a point.
And for you, Loran:
Vote Spoon.
Vote Spoon.
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Fair enough. One of its motivations was simply to get you posting. The other I'll leave alone, along with the vote itself.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
This is to both you and Xyre and it's a theory I espose regularly that both agrees and disagrees with you:
Mafia conventions are blunt objects not precise tools.
Saying "acting defensive is a scum tell" is clearly a blunt weapon that will hit the wrong target pretty frequently. Because, let's be honest, townies often act defensive.
But that doesn't mean it can't be honed and used properly to catch scum. It just has to be more precise. You have to focus on *what* that player is being defensive about, what their *past* behavior is in similar situations and the *tone* of their posts.
The "medium sized" tell works in the same way (what you call being "too" townie). If you act too medium sized in a way that is forced, it can be a tell.
So, yes, you're right. Just calling someone "defensive" is inneffective. You need to know where the line is between "appropriatly defensive" and "too defensive." So dismissing the tell altogether is as bad as following the tell blindly.
I realize this is more "theory", but it's relevant to the discussion at hand. Later in the game when I have a better feel for Xyre, I may come back to this and use it against him depending on how I read his style of play.
Fair point. You will find I am "pro" revealing info (other than power roles, obv) and then letting the town discuss it openly. *but* revealing that info should be done intentionally, after planning it out, and openly so that everyone sees it. Like, the extreme example, is if you're going to tip off that you have some great ability, make it obvious enough that the doc will see it too, as well as the mafia.
I worry about people who accidentally reveal more than they intend to.
vote: abbey because he needs to post more. I know he's been online
I thought abbey had said in a game that he was getting a real job and was going to be cutting back on mafia? Incidentally, before your comment i didnt even realize he was in this game.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Mister Xyre has not transgressed severely. I have known him in past incarnations of the Matrix, and he has displayed similar pathologies when aligned with the forces of good. I focus my gaze instead on one whose attack on Xyre smacks of opportunism.
Vote: ZeDorkSlipeur. Your code requires correction.
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It also seems I'm in the minority for being glad to see a player like Grakthis in the game. Should make things interesting
Interesting definition of opportunism, when I go back and read the post. Are you asserting that ZDS, as mafia, has some special need to get Xyre to answer questions? So we should make the assumption then that if ZDS is scum, then Xyre is not. Mostly. Kinda.
Maybe we should lynch ZDS to kinda clear Xyre? Unless of course ZDS isn't scum, in which case we just wasted our time.
Then again, we may as well be pressuring someone. We could do that one of two ways: either just randomly bandwagon someone until they crack and claim, and hope we get lucky, or else force someone to explain something questionable they've already said. Has anyone said anything that might need explaining? No, not really? Okay, I'm keeping my vote on Alx. Who's with me?
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Assuming you refer to #61, there's actually a vote in that post, did you notice that? I don't know if ZDS "has some special need to get Xyre to answer questions", as you put it, but I see he uses the question as an excuse to vote. That's opportunism.
::badposting::
He's been in his new job for atleast a month now, and his posting on the internet in general has been pretty normal.
No, he has no excuse for not posting 2-3 times a day here.
Ah, so the claim is that ZDS wants an excuse to have his vote on Xyre. I get it. Do you plan to extend this logic to the point where you can say that ZDS wants Xyre lynched (which is ludicrous, based on the post in question), or are you planning on moving in the direction that ZDS has some kind of ability/role-based need to be voting Xyre?
That might be reasonable, but I don't see how it's especially scummy.
Vote Alx2
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