Well, I'm glad to see that we're back to atl; I truly was failing to comprehend why we shouldn't be continuing the wagon based on an easily fakeable claim.
Vote atlseal
@Grak: We have never had a game move this quickly before, in terms of posts. God Mafia took a month to get as far as we have in less than 2 weeks, and the Day 1 there only lasted less than 1300 posts, going for six and a half weeks.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
I just don't feel like we can trust atlseal to cooperate with the town's demands, and if we give him another day, that's more of an opportunity for him to derail the wagon. I understand the desire to avoid lynching a jack, but still, he's a very possible scum.
I just don't feel like we can trust atlseal to cooperate with the town's demands, and if we give him another day, that's more of an opportunity for him to derail the wagon. I understand the desire to avoid lynching a jack, but still, he's a very possible scum.
What on Earth are you even talking about? What exactly do you think is going to happen if he lives another day? Come back and say "Screw you guys, I chose to Doc protect Grakthis!"
@Axlerod - Why don't you agree with me about Cyan? Plz explain.
Not sure what you mean. I said you were making some good points. He's not off my radar.
If you just mean why aren't I listing him at the top of my list, well, you can't have everybody at the top. He's harder to get a handle on because he's always so abrasive (not unlike yourself).
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Not sure what you mean. I said you were making some good points. He's not off my radar.
If you just mean why aren't I listing him at the top of my list, well, you can't have everybody at the top. He's harder to get a handle on because he's always so abrasive (not unlike yourself).
I was refering to the fact that he wans't at the top of your list.
I am just trying to figure out if my reads on Cyan are just typical Cyan. Like, is he just another Draco who I need to realize posts like that even if he's a townie?
I'm pretty torn on how I feel about atlseal now. On the one hand his claim, along with a majority of his posts, bother me greatly. However, the actions of Xyre, Loran, and LJustus towards his wagon all give me pause. Axel is right that atlseal's actions in regards to ZDS revealing his -2 to lynch ability are more town than not, and this even explains his quick unvote/immediate acceptance of ZDS' claim. Of course, atlseal being scum would also explain these things, and I really do have a hard time with so many roles that the mafia can exploit by simply posting before anyone else. In the end, I think that vote atlseal is where I want to go.
@Grak: I'm not sure why you think I'm suspicious of CP. I don't remember ever stating that. I'm suspicious of Xyre, Loran, Ljustus, atlseal, alx2, and ZDS. I unfortunately get accused of being scummy frequently, and I've tried to put more effort into my posts this game to avoid that, though it seems to have accomplished little.
I don't see the problem in letting atlseal live a night, take his cop investigation tomorrow, and then lynch him. We get a free cop out of it if he's town and still kill him if he's scum.
@Grak: I'm not sure why you think I'm suspicious of CP. I don't remember ever stating that. I'm suspicious of Xyre, Loran, Ljustus, atlseal, alx2, and ZDS. I unfortunately get accused of being scummy frequently, and I've tried to put more effort into my posts this game to avoid that, though it seems to have accomplished little.
Quote from You »
I find CP's defense of ZDS here to be unsettling. It is fairly abnormal to avidly defend someone else early in the game. Particularly, CP seems to do so more as scum than town(defending Azrael in Cartoon Mafia, for example).
Quote from You »
CP is abnormally aggressive today, even moreso than I normally am. I'm not sure if that means something, but it seems worth making a note of.
Fair enough, I made two statements against him. Of course, in the second, I specifically state that I'm not sure if it means anything. And he later answered the first post, in a manner that I find satisfactory. Regardless, CP is not someone that I would classify myself as being suspicious of.
I'm not putting the blame on them at all, with the exception that LJustus essentially laid full responsibility for the wagon on my shoulders, and Xyre/Loran both have called me out for being on the wagon, while also being on it themselves. And regardless of whether or not it is a 'running theme', I simply find it unlikely that all of these -2 to lynch roles are town, yet none are scum. Taking that into consideration, along with the overall content of atlseal's posts, and the claim itself(I'll point out that you managed to leave out that I specifically mentioned both of these things), my ultimate decision right now is that atlseal is scum.
I, too, think atlseal is scum - hell, I started the crusade on him to begin with, but it does stand to reason that we should get the "investigation" out of the way from him first.
Should we go that route, I'd want to take a hard look at LJustus next.
What's wrong with not voting? Frankly, many of the wagons in this game have been rather baseless, and I can totally understand fadeblue being better than that.
I didnt expect fade to jump on wagons for the sake of jumping on wagons...but It'd be nice if we could see some votes to see where fade thinks the most scummy person is at times. When Fade says in #397-that Sutherlands, who he was at the time seemingly going after, was NOT the most scummy player out there, i want to know fade's opinion as to WHO the most scummy person out there is.
IN other words, what fade's doing right now essentially would leave someone looking back at day 1 with absolutely nothing on fade, just like a lurker. And it bothers me, especially from as good a player as fade.
@Cyan, I didnt call you out for being on the ZDS or Atl wagon. I called you out for being particularly lynch-happy with regards to both of them (particularly ZDS), which doesnt particularly strike me as very helpful.
BTW, put me down in the lets lynch Atlseal tomorrow camp. I see no disadvantage of doing that and a potential advantage based on what he says tomorrow.
Anyhow, i g2g, will be back later.
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
2) arim was being unusually aggressive, but I still didn't think he was the best lead. I threatened to vote him because I wanted to see how he would respond, and the result was inconclusive.
You know, I really don’t seem to recall him being all that “aggressive” . Maybe it’s just that I haven played in a lot of games with him, but I really did not see anything that I’d call aggressive play there. Certainly nothing that I would say would qualify him as needing to buy a life insurance policy.
Could you, maybe give some examples of what you consider “aggressive” play by Arim?
3) I have no current opinions on who is the scummiest right now. The day has been stretching in far too many directions, and until some players get whittled away, there's just too much to compute. I prefer smaller possibility sets so that it's easier to focus on relevant data. Which is why, if you'll notice from previous games, I tend to take the backseat on D1 in large games unless something big comes up, and so far, none of the cases have been particularly impressive. Though I will say I'm satisfied with the atlseal lead (but as I mentioned in my previous post, I feel we may be able to squeeze a bit extra out of it by waiting a day).
I have to say that I find this paragraph, oh I don’t know, curious. You know, I can’t quite put my finger on it. You’ve been in games like this before. A lot of them and I don’t recall ever hearing you say that any volumn of posts was Too much for you to cope with. I have rarely seen you at a loss to be able to at least contribute in a more “focused” manner then this. This seems……unFade like.
I was refering to the fact that he wans't at the top of your list.
I am just trying to figure out if my reads on Cyan are just typical Cyan. Like, is he just another Draco who I need to realize posts like that even if he's a townie?
Cause, in a fishbowl, he's scummy as all hell.
In a fish bowl and out.
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W – 33, L – 19, Broke Games - 9
Calvin & Hobbs Mafia, Mafia MVP
X-Men Mafia Town MVP
Simpson's Mafia - best use of character
Mtgnews Mafia Mafia - Town Madman
Mythos Mafia: the Dunwich Massacre Town MVP
English Literature Mafia Town MVP
Best Role-Playing Sin City Mafia
Werewolf Mafia - Mafia MVP
Doctor Mafia - Mafia MVP
Mafia: Escape from the Cylons - Town MVP
Lost Mafia - Co SK Winner with Kops
Random Mafia 3 - Town MVP
unvote atlseal: because my best point against him turns out to have been based on a misunderstanding, and without that I'm happy to see how his one-shot investigate turns out (although I will note in advance that I don't expect much, unless he's town AND the scum don't have a roleblocker, and people acting as if they expect atlseal to produce a major revelation are either kidding themselves or trying to kid other people).
Still interested in going back to Xyre in that case, although Cyan is growing increasingly interesting with that backpedal on cp.
Vamp- no criticism for talking a lot, talking's good. I was just saying that it was late and I didn't have time to really read and analyse something of that length (and the PBPA on you).
If we want to leave atlseal for now, I'd look at wizzpig. He only has a small amount of posts, some barning, some generic fence sitting, you know ... it's something a townie could do, but nothing a townie would do intentionally.
Fair enough, I made two statements against him. Of course, in the second, I specifically state that I'm not sure if it means anything. And he later answered the first post, in a manner that I find satisfactory. Regardless, CP is not someone that I would classify myself as being suspicious of.
You later quote that you've seen CP act aggressive as scum before. If you check my PBPA, it's in there.
You're backtracking, yet again.
Quote from Hawkeye »
I have to say that I find this paragraph, oh I don’t know, curious. You know, I can’t quite put my finger on it. You’ve been in games like this before. A lot of them and I don’t recall ever hearing you say that any volumn of posts was Too much for you to cope with. I have rarely seen you at a loss to be able to at least contribute in a more “focused” manner then this. This seems……unFade like.
Yeah... I totally missed that post from Fade. I find that the "waaaah this thread is too complicated/long/much effort I can't keep up!" excuse is a common scum tell.
of course, everytime I catch scum with it, they INSIST that they would have done it as a townie too... so either it's a good tell, or it's just a freak of statistics. You decide.
Kinda like, anytime someone posts "God dammit, I made a huge post and the server ate it." It's baffling, but that is like an 80% hit rate.
6 Not Voting- Hvirfilvindr, Ljustus, Rafaelk, Loran16, Dagger, DYH
23 alive, 13 to lynch.
(See-thru Mirror)
(turns head left, turns head right)
"WHO ARE YOU?"
"Ever think you see something. something out of the corner of your eye and when you turn, there's nothing there. nothing but your heart is now racing and you feel......panic, rising in our gut? You rub your eyes and blink but just before they focus you get a glimpse of.......what the hell was that? It was there and then it was gone."
"It's like when you think you see something suspicous in a mafia game post. You have to ask yourself, is what I thought I saw realy what that was?"
If we want to leave atlseal for now, I'd look at wizzpig. He only has a small amount of posts, some barning, some generic fence sitting, you know ... it's something a townie could do, but nothing a townie would do intentionally.
What is that?
"Ah... hey! Look at him. He's suspicious, isn't he? I don't know, what do you guys think? Want to bandwagon him?"
Alx2, If you think he's suspicious, then make a case.
You DO think he's suspicious don't you? OR are you just tossing him out there hoping for what?
That someone else will step in and make the case you haven't?
Or are you hoping to simply redirect attention away from something?
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W – 33, L – 19, Broke Games - 9
Calvin & Hobbs Mafia, Mafia MVP
X-Men Mafia Town MVP
Simpson's Mafia - best use of character
Mtgnews Mafia Mafia - Town Madman
Mythos Mafia: the Dunwich Massacre Town MVP
English Literature Mafia Town MVP
Best Role-Playing Sin City Mafia
Werewolf Mafia - Mafia MVP
Doctor Mafia - Mafia MVP
Mafia: Escape from the Cylons - Town MVP
Lost Mafia - Co SK Winner with Kops
Random Mafia 3 - Town MVP
I've seen CP aggressively defend other people as scum. That was already listed by you, and already responded to by me. Again, he answered that criticism, and I found his answer satisfactory.
I'm pretty torn on how I feel about atlseal now. On the one hand his claim, along with a majority of his posts, bother me greatly. However, the actions of Xyre, Loran, and LJustus towards his wagon all give me pause. Axel is right that atlseal's actions in regards to ZDS revealing his -2 to lynch ability are more town than not, and this even explains his quick unvote/immediate acceptance of ZDS' claim. Of course, atlseal being scum would also explain these things, and I really do have a hard time with so many roles that the mafia can exploit by simply posting before anyone else. In the end, I think that vote atlseal is where I want to go.
@Grak: I'm not sure why you think I'm suspicious of CP. I don't remember ever stating that. I'm suspicious of Xyre, Loran, Ljustus, atlseal, alx2, and ZDS. I unfortunately get accused of being scummy frequently, and I've tried to put more effort into my posts this game to avoid that, though it seems to have accomplished little.
Keep posting like this, you'll earn my vote yet.
Waffling aside, if you are "torn" then it stands to reason you ought to be willing to give the man another day. What's the worst that could happen? Compare that with the upside. You just gave a list of 6 other people you appear willing to vote for. You really think the guy with all the claimed 1-shot abilities is the best bet?
Also, I'm having trouble believing you would counsciously be trying to put "more effort" into sounding less scummy if you were town.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Waffling aside, if you are "torn" then it stands to reason you ought to be willing to give the man another day. What's the worst that could happen? Compare that with the upside. You just gave a list of 6 other people you appear willing to vote for. You really think the guy with all the claimed 1-shot abilities is the best bet?
Also, I'm having trouble believing you would counsciously be trying to put "more effort" into sounding less scummy if you were town.
I'd hate to be accused of trying to derail a popular wagon. Plus, considering the suspect nature of some of the people on this wagon, it seems, to me, that it's worth lynching someone that has a claim that I don't really believe anyway. It's particularly relevant that I don't believe the JoAT aspect of his claim at all.
As for the second bit, believe it. I get accused of being scummy in *every game*, and it often leads to people just ignoring what I say. DotA is a good example. I called out sgdre and stormblind as scum on day 1, and never changed my mind about it, but could never convince anyone. This is clearly because people couldn't put any confidence in what I was saying, because they perceived me as scummy. I don't want that to be the case again, now or ever, if I can help it.
Has anyone considered the possibility that atlseal is scum with a one-shot ability? It is the biggest danger in this whole "let atlseal hang around until tomorrow" plan.
I didnt expect fade to jump on wagons for the sake of jumping on wagons...but It'd be nice if we could see some votes to see where fade thinks the most scummy person is at times. When Fade says in #397-that Sutherlands, who he was at the time seemingly going after, was NOT the most scummy player out there, i want to know fade's opinion as to WHO the most scummy person out there is.
I don't vote unless I have reason to. If I find someone suspicious, I prefer not to openly indicate that unless I plan on going somewhere with it, or if I feel the town is going to otherwise overlook something important (i.e. like how I should have openly come out against DYH and Raf in Court Mafia).
As I've already mentioned, I don't have strong feelings about anyone being scum right now. I haven't seen any major scum tells, and the minor ones I've seen have mostly been negated by minor town tells.
I recently mentioned my current list of leads I'm interested in pursuing. At the time I pointed out Sutherlands, there were two others I had my eye on. I hadn't bothered to sort out who I felt was "scummier"; simply, they were all suspects in my mind. One of them is Cyan. The other I'm not going to mention, since I'm not interested in publicly opening a case right now. It's premature.
IN other words, what fade's doing right now essentially would leave someone looking back at day 1 with absolutely nothing on fade, just like a lurker. And it bothers me, especially from as good a player as fade.
Why exactly does that bother you?
You know, I really don’t seem to recall him being all that “aggressive” . Maybe it’s just that I haven played in a lot of games with him, but I really did not see anything that I’d call aggressive play there. Certainly nothing that I would say would qualify him as needing to buy a life insurance policy.
Could you, maybe give some examples of what you consider “aggressive” play by Arim?
Vote ZDS in #102. Two posts later in #212, Vote Vampyr. Next post (#288), back to voting ZDS. Next post (#330), back to voting Vampyr. Three posts later (#350), vote Alx2 with no explanation. Not to mention the confrontational tone all game. I think that qualifies as pretty aggressive to me.
By the way, what's with the slant in your statement: "Certainly nothing that I would say would qualify him as needing to buy a life insurance policy"? Do you really think me threatening to vote him carries that much weight?
I have to say that I find this paragraph, oh I don’t know, curious. You know, I can’t quite put my finger on it. You’ve been in games like this before. A lot of them and I don’t recall ever hearing you say that any volumn of posts was Too much for you to cope with. I have rarely seen you at a loss to be able to at least contribute in a more “focused” manner then this. This seems……unFade like.
Yes, I have been in games like this before. However, the circumstances are different. (If you're interested in hearing "excuses," I can tell you that my work schedule is now more annoying than ever. But whatever.)
Yeah... I totally missed that post from Fade. I find that the "waaaah this thread is too complicated/long/much effort I can't keep up!" excuse is a common scum tell.
of course, everytime I catch scum with it, they INSIST that they would have done it as a townie too... so either it's a good tell, or it's just a freak of statistics. You decide.
No, I actually agree with you. The excuse is certainly more common among scum than town. However, that doesn't mean townies too can't have their own issues.
@AG: Yes, that is a concern. The plan is certainly not completely more optimal.
Fakeable claim = Fake claim. It's common knowledge.
You know, it might just be me, but I'm pretty sure I didn't say that atl's claim was scummy. I remember saying something about how his behavior was scummy, and I remember saying something about how his claim does nothing to clear him, and I remember saying that JoAT is both easy to fake and commonly faked.
Easily fakeable + separately scummy behavior = highly suspect claim.
Highly suspect claim + Day 1 + lots of responses from the town about him = worthwhile lynch target.
I have stated in other games that Day 1 lasts too long because the town can't accept the possibility of the loss of a power role, no matter how good of a case the claimant to the power role has against him. This is no different. The possibility of an investigation assumes a lot. Even assuming that he is, in fact, town, the doc will have to target him, the mafia need to not have a roleblocker, and he has to be sane (not necessarily common with Jack roles). In fact, given all that, if he's mafia, it would more suspicious that he came up with a result against those kind of odds than that he didn't, and not coming up with a result is pretty darn suspicious.
In other words, he will never be cleared; we can never trust him or his info, which means his role is a perfectly good Day 1 lynch. Waiting for an investigation is pointless.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
The possibility of an investigation assumes a lot. Even assuming that he is, in fact, town, the doc will have to target him, the mafia need to not have a roleblocker, and he has to be sane (not necessarily common with Jack roles).
Assuming he's town:
The doc shouldn't be protecting him. Given that we're planning to lynch him tomorrow anyway, if the mafia killed him during the night, then they've saved us the trouble and we've almost gained an extra lynch (rather than us lynching him today and the mafia getting to kill who they want, we get to lynch who we want and they kill him).
Same if the mafia have an RB. It's fine if they use it on him, since that means they're not using it on someone else. If we still lynch him tomorrow, it's just like switching today's and tomorrow's lynch (except with the bonus that the mafia wastes an RB, and the drawback that today's lynch is less informed than if it happened tomorrow).
As for sanity, I'm not sure why that's a factor.
In conclusion: atlseal is definitely a good lynch. I'm just thinking there's a possibility to optimize a bit more.
I'd hate to be accused of trying to derail a popular wagon. Plus, considering the suspect nature of some of the people on this wagon, it seems, to me, that it's worth lynching someone that has a claim that I don't really believe anyway. It's particularly relevant that I don't believe the JoAT aspect of his claim at all.
Wait... why would you hate to be accused of detailing a popular wagon?
If your arguments are convincing, then you should make them. No matter if they go against popular opinion or not.
Only scum worry about how their arguments will look to the town. A townie just worries if their arguments are valid.
Well, actually, it's only someone scared of being lynched who etc etc etc. But 80% of the time, that's scum. The other 20% of the time, it's just a townie who can't relax.
Quote from Cyan »
As for the second bit, believe it. I get accused of being scummy in *every game*, and it often leads to people just ignoring what I say. DotA is a good example. I called out sgdre and stormblind as scum on day 1, and never changed my mind about it, but could never convince anyone. This is clearly because people couldn't put any confidence in what I was saying, because they perceived me as scummy. I don't want that to be the case again, now or ever, if I can help it.
I have a more plausible scenario: maybe no one has any confidence in your arguments because your arguments are weak?
Isn't that far more logical than people not trusting you because you're scummy?
The argument stands on its own. If it's a good case, it doesn't matter who makes it.
EBWOP: Also, the notion that we are going to lynch Atl tomorrow is simply INSANITY.
He's claimed a power role! It's day 1! Give him 3-4 days to prove out his ability at a MINIMUM! It's not like we're searching for 1 last scum. There are 4-5 of them! Get to looking, slackers!
You must be trying very hard, to find no better target than a lurker at this time. What about one of the many other players who has been mentioned as scummy ? (Cyan, Loran, Xyre, LJustus, etc.)
Wizzpig posted very little content, and practically none of it is townish. The underlined part is the important one. I'm not just picking on a lurker here. As for the others:
- Cyan, I'm pretty much on the fence about. Most of what he's doing can be be attributed to the Cyan-just-being-Cyan argument. Jury is still out.
- Loran has been giving me a strong townie vibe. I can elaborate if you want, but for now I'll leave it at that.
- Xyre has a history of being jumped at for imaginary slips. See his almost-lynch in 24 as most recent example. For now, I see his chances of being scum average at best.
- LJustus is the most problematic of the four you mentioned. Still, his problem is mostly lack of content, as opposed to scummy content.
EBWOP: Also, the notion that we are going to lynch Atl tomorrow is simply INSANITY.
He's claimed a power role! It's day 1! Give him 3-4 days to prove out his ability at a MINIMUM! It's not like we're searching for 1 last scum. There are 4-5 of them! Get to looking, slackers!
This is true. When you think about it, the only way he could fake being a jack would be if the mafia contains most or all of the roles in question, which means that lynching him would be a lot of risk for less reward. I suppose a one-night reprieve is not unreasonable. Unvote atlseal.
Moving straight down my scumdar... Vote Cyan. The "Cyan being Cyan" argument to me is a load of bull.
My previous attempt to crossreference another game failed miserably. Let's see how this one works out.
Oh really?
Sorry, that doesnt really convince me of much (incidentally, when did Cyan become Manny Ramirez?) and i doubt it'll convince others of much as well....quotes from different games are hardly conclusive with different circumstances and a more experienced player in the later game.
Quote from Fade »
Why exactly does that bother you?
It bothers me because it's something that very easily could benefit a scum, as it leaves the town with no info (or virtually no info) to analyze on you or such a player from all of day 1. If a person is town, then they shouldn't be worried about their day 1 posts being analyzed. But for a scum player, doing what you're doing means that they can easily survive day 1 and start off day 2 unlikely to be a target (barring night actions of course).
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
After my experience with him, I've realized that if you excuse someone for their behavior, they play that way as scum and beat you. While I argued for that in the past, I feel like it's a flawed argument.
And Xyre finally realizes that the atlseal wagon is going nowhere and abandons it for..the only other popular wagon. Way to continue to be scummy, Xyre. Repeating reasons that someone else came up with to get off the wagon(just like you did to get on it) is also impressive.
@Grakthis: You would be surprised how many times I have read the following statement(paraphrase): "I agree with that post/the case on (whomever), but am reluctant to place my vote because the post/wagon was created by Cyan, and he seems scummy". When I say 'you would be surprised' I mean that it comes up in every game I play in. There is nothing wrong with a person wanting to improve their playstyle, and the desire to do so certainly doesn't make a person scum. If it takes me being lynched a few times to make this adjustment..then that's life. But I am geniunely tired of being a constant distraction for the town, and I'm going to do something about it.
Cyan, could you refresh my memory, I don't especially want to have to go look it up, as to how many times you have been lynched when you were actually town? And what games those were?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
1. I didn't mean to use you not posting as a point. Sorry about that.
I apologize for getting snippy about it if you weren't using it as a point against me. Just the way you phrased it came across as such. I was reading too much into it.
I did say a lot of wagons early, and those were the first two wagons of the game. This point is probably less valid than I remember it being, though. When I first started being suspicious of you, you'd joined every wagon in what looked like an opportunistic way and left after they started dying down. You're right, saying a lot of wagons is not appropriate anymore. But you still joined those first couple in a very poor way and left by similar means.
Thank you for conceding "a lot" might not be the most accurate. I will also say that yes my on and off of Xyre's was poor. Again, as I said in my last post, I was looking for reactions. My onto loran's, I honestly don't remember. Too much going on. But the off, I think was valid. I find Cyan's actions suspect so far in regards to his uncertainty about who to vote for and his backpedalling. I think Grak's post about him was very on target.
Unless you're confessing to being scum, this is not an appropriate analogy at all. You've been caught looking scummy. It's your responsibility to your teammates (either the rest of the town or your scum buddies) to make sure you show how you're not. And when you don't even acknowledge the attack on you, things look suspicious.
When it comes down to it, if multiple people think you look bad simply by summarizing what you've said, you've got a problem. Don't even take into account the fact that Axel and I both made comments about your actions beyond what they actually were. If your actions can speak for themselves, you need to do something about that.
This is an appropriate example, if we use my posts as the camera, Axel as the cops stating the obvious and myself as the apprehanded crook with nothing to say to refute the obvious. Axel restate's my posts and throws in the accusation of me being scum. With the camera (my posts) being there for everyone to see and to evaluate, what else can I say about Axel restating my posts besides, "Yes, that's right"?
The problem is that you and Raf are focusing on the guilt aspect of a criminal. That's not the intention of my analogy. It can be twisted to sound as the intention, but then it would quite inaccurate.
The reason why I didn't acknowlege it was because, to me, it didn't come across as being much of an attack. As for the multiple people, it was just Axel, you and Arim that voiced anything more than a "Hey, yeah Vampyr sounds scummy cuz of what Axel said." Three people coming at me doesn't get me too riled. There needs to be more than that.
5. On you not fence sitting regarding atlseal's claim:
That's what you said about atlseal's claim. This is fence sitting: you said 'my initial reaction is not to believe him, but I'm not going to vote him'. And once the answer came along, you did and said nothing about it.
My question was answered? Where, can you link me the post? I didn't see it. That's why I didn't comment further. One thing I will mention is that I believe atlseal shouldn't be left till tomorrow. If the town is sure of him being scum, why allow him to be left alive to sow any seeds of distrust? Especially after night in which he's had a chance to converse with fellow scum as to the best plan to take.
I still believe Cyan is the better play, but I just wanted to add some input regarding the situation atlseal is in.
I could give this as a textbook example of what scum do when they've joined a townie's wagon. Admittedly townies do it too, but this seems to be the common theme with your actions.
There's not much more I can say about this. All I can give you is what I was thinking at the time. My attempts were poor and now it makes me look bad. This is a live and learn situation. I doubt I'll try that sort of thing again.
The difference is that you don't look like you're lurking around not wanting to comment on the wagon. This game is won and lost based on what people say. If you don't say what you're thinking, well, at the very least you don't get people on your case for not commenting on something. It looks suspicious when you don't say anything about the most important issue of the game. More importantly, though, if you thought ZDS was town, you should have tried to make sure he didn't have to claim. I think that's pretty easy to understand.
This probably completely destroys at least one of my points here at number 7, but I'm not sure what it is that you're saying. If you clarify this, I'll respond better to it.
Good, I don't want to seem like I'm lurking, because I'm not. As for talking to make sure he doesn't claim, a majority of votes went on him while I was at work. The best I could have done was voice my opinion in saying I thought Axel's reasons were poor and didn't think there was much of a case.
As for my the last part. In Sterotype mafia, Cyan got wagon'ed and was forced to claim (thank you ZDS for clearing that up). At that time, I said I believed that Cyan was town because of the way his posts sounded to me. ZDS then used my supposed "pre-existing" knowledge of Cyan's alignment to wagon me and get me to lynch. I was a neutered SK (had to target someone each night and kill the GF before being able to kill anyone else) and was just giving an opinion on Cyan's posts.
In this case here, I was reluctant to say "this wagon is crap, because Axel's reasons are crap." I felt it could be interpreted as me having pre-existing knowledge. Add on top of it, the player I'd be defending was the guy who used such statements against me previously all made me want to avoid commenting on the wagon unless I had to.
Is that a more clear explanation? If not, I will try to restate it again.
First: metagaming = bad. Second: who was speculating you had something to do with it? Did I miss something?
Wait...metagming? Where? That comment was strictly me commenting on the multiple games of Clue: Master Detective that I played with friends over the weekend. It was in no way referencing anything I did/am doing or anything anyone else did/are doing in the game.
As for who was speculating about me having something to do with Arim's death: Xyre mentions the possibilty I was connected to it in his commentary about post 212. That was what I was referring to.
Something that keeps sticking out in my mind is that Fade has said "I think we can squeeze a bit more out of this day" at least twice, maybe a third time. What exactly are you expecting to find? Not that I'm in a rush to lynch atlseal, but Cyan is the only other wagon at the moment. If people thought he to be more scummy than atlseal, then there'd be more people after him. I don't think there will be that many minds changing suddenly and going after Cyan. So beyond that, I unable to guess what else you (Fade) hope to find. Any chance you can expand on this?
Does anyone beside me think that Alx's quick agreement of Xyre's simple explanation to be odd? That's just too easy.
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Cyan, could you refresh my memory, I don't especially want to have to go look it up, as to how many times you have been lynched when you were actually town? And what games those were?
I have never been lynched as town. For that matter, I've only been lynched as scum once, IIRC, in Newb 8. On here anyway. I've been lynched as scum a couple of times on other boards as well. I'm not sure what that matters, though. Even without being lynched, I've been forced to claim early in the game a large amount of times, and constantly deal with people being suspicious of me. And as I've said, I've watched relevant arguments of mine get dismissed because people didn't trust my intentions. It has simply gotten tiresome.
1-4. What's been said here isn't going to go anywhere further. You've admitted to doing some scummy things (Xyre's wagon, fence sitting) and blame mostly your play style and inexperience. There's not much more to say other than exactly how bad these things are.
5. I recalled someone explaining more about the Cheshire Cat, but I could be wrong. I'll answer here, I guess: the Cheshire Cat does make sense as a jack of all trades, IMO. He's weird, wacky, and undefined, so doing a little of everything fits for me.
6. See 1-4.
7. I still think you should have commented as soon as you had the chance. Being timid because of a previous game is a bad thing. Being timid in general is a bad thing. Get your voice out there.
That was clear enough for me, by the way. Thanks.
8. I took the comment you made to imply that we should not consider you to have had any part in Arim's death because you hadn't been at the computer all weekend. That's metagaming, and that's bad.
Alright on Xyre suspecting you.
Overall, I still think you've done some seriously scummy things and don't have an explanation for them beyond 'yeah, I'm working on that'. That just doesn't seem good.
@Grakthis: You would be surprised how many times I have read the following statement(paraphrase): "I agree with that post/the case on (whomever), but am reluctant to place my vote because the post/wagon was created by Cyan, and he seems scummy". When I say 'you would be surprised' I mean that it comes up in every game I play in. There is nothing wrong with a person wanting to improve their playstyle, and the desire to do so certainly doesn't make a person scum. If it takes me being lynched a few times to make this adjustment..then that's life. But I am geniunely tired of being a constant distraction for the town, and I'm going to do something about it.
That is a sign of a really really weak town. You will not find a town like that in this game, because I will not let people do that. Arguments will be judged on their merit, not on who posts them.
Quote from Vamp »
Does anyone beside me think that Alx's quick agreement of Xyre's simple explanation to be odd? That's just too easy.
No. I also thought it was a good answer. A flawed answer, obv... but a valid one from a metagaming POV.
If someone does something bad, you smack them in the nose and tell them "no." You don't just "accept" it and move on.
Like, if your friend is ALWAYS late, you don't just accept that they are always late. Because someday when they are late, it's going to screw you over in some important way.
Instead, you yell at them and tell them to stop being late.
Just for my information, what from loran gives you townie vibes ?
If you really need to know: a couple of times in this game, he had the exact ideas as I did. The second time was when he asked Fadeblue to prove he can vote; at the same time, I was actually in the process of checking who didn't vote yet and noted Fade never voted. "Hmm," I thought, "I wonder if I should ask Fade about it directly," - and then I noted Loran just did.
The first time, I actually forgot what it was, but I do remember noting to myself, "wow, this guy is thinking the same way I am". I don't have the time right now to scour the thread and find out what it was.
I have never been lynched as town. For that matter, I've only been lynched as scum once, IIRC, in Newb 8. On here anyway. I've been lynched as scum a couple of times on other boards as well. I'm not sure what that matters, though. Even without being lynched, I've been forced to claim early in the game a large amount of times, and constantly deal with people being suspicious of me. And as I've said, I've watched relevant arguments of mine get dismissed because people didn't trust my intentions. It has simply gotten tiresome.
Wait, you've never been lynched as town, and yet you still felt this compelling need to change your style? And change it to a style where you are constantly expressing your doubts, and waffling back and forth about people? You think this is more beneficial to the town? You think that is going to get people to be less suspicious of you and take your "arguments" more seriously?
I don't like the similarities between all these posts:
Quote from Cyan »
I'm not sure how I feel about the bandwagon on Xyre. On the one hand, it seems like the attacks on him are based upon absolutely nothing.
On the other hand, for the wagon being so flimsy, he is really, really reacting badly to it, which doesn't make much sense.
Mostly, his actions and reactions thus far remind me of how I acted at the beginning of Trek Mafia. Vote Xyre based upon that.
Quote from Cyan »
I'm still having a hard time believing that 4 people are voting for CP. Of course, the fact that 2 of them are Xyre and Loran, easily the most suspicious people in this game so far, makes CP look pretty good. Ironically, the fact that they're voting for CP, IMO, only makes Loran and Xyre look that much worse. I'm having a hard time deciding which of them to keep my vote on, mostly because I think they're both very lynchworthy right now.
Quote from Cyan »
I'm pretty torn on how I feel about atlseal now. On the one hand his claim, along with a majority of his posts, bother me greatly. However, the actions of Xyre, Loran, and LJustus towards his wagon all give me pause. Axel is right that atlseal's actions in regards to ZDS revealing his -2 to lynch ability are more town than not, and this even explains his quick unvote/immediate acceptance of ZDS' claim. Of course, atlseal being scum would also explain these things, and I really do have a hard time with so many roles that the mafia can exploit by simply posting before anyone else. In the end, I think that vote atlseal is where I want to go.
@Grak: I'm not sure why you think I'm suspicious of CP. I don't remember ever stating that. I'm suspicious of Xyre, Loran, Ljustus, atlseal, alx2, and ZDS. I unfortunately get accused of being scummy frequently, and I've tried to put more effort into my posts this game to avoid that, though it seems to have accomplished little.
Cyan has claimed, however, to know for a certainty the existance of 2 non-Matrix roles in the game. I don't recall whether he ever specified if he was one of them, but that's clearly the assumption. He knows this, although he is not a "Mason" with that other role.
Answer me this Cyan: Do you know the alignment of this other role that you are not a Mason with, but that you know is in the game and is not from the Matrix?
Vamp has made me not want to be voting for him anymore at the present time:
Unvote
My vote could easily go to Hvir. who has disappeared. Possibly LJustus. And also possibly Cyan, who is definitely not posting as I would expect, and even admits to it, but claims he is making a deliberate effort to change a playstyle that has never resulted in his lynch as town, but apparently results in people distrusting him too much.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Something that keeps sticking out in my mind is that Fade has said "I think we can squeeze a bit more out of this day" at least twice, maybe a third time.
I thought I had made it clear the "squeezing a bit more out" was in reference to letting atlseal live a day before lynching him, so we can get the results of his claimed investigation.
EBWOP: Also, the notion that we are going to lynch Atl tomorrow is simply INSANITY.
He's claimed a power role! It's day 1! Give him 3-4 days to prove out his ability at a MINIMUM! It's not like we're searching for 1 last scum. There are 4-5 of them! Get to looking, slackers!
While we don't necessarily need to lynch him tomorrow, he will remain to be a good lynch candidate unless he somehow gets cleared by a cop investigation (which I believe would be a waste of an investigation).
The thing is, there is no way to sufficiently prove a JoAT role. Extra days do nothing to improve his claim. Even the vig part of a JoAT (assuming he has one) can be easily spoofed, depending on the circumstances.
Answer me this Cyan: Do you know the alignment of this other role that you are not a Mason with, but that you know is in the game and is not from the Matrix?
Agreed with Alx. Axel this is the 2nd time you've enquired further about a role (first being ZDS) in a way we don't need to know at the moment. Fortunately, i don't think Cyan is likely to be answering that question with him not being pressured at all.
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
You disapprove of him saying if he knows the alignment?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
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Vote atlseal
@Grak: We have never had a game move this quickly before, in terms of posts. God Mafia took a month to get as far as we have in less than 2 weeks, and the Day 1 there only lasted less than 1300 posts, going for six and a half weeks.
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Obviously he may not cooperate if he's scum, but if he's town, why wouldn't he?
@CP: So you're not interested in trying to get a potential investigation out of him?
But they were 500 GOOD posts!
@Axlerod - Why don't you agree with me about Cyan? Plz explain.
What on Earth are you even talking about? What exactly do you think is going to happen if he lives another day? Come back and say "Screw you guys, I chose to Doc protect Grakthis!"
Not sure what you mean. I said you were making some good points. He's not off my radar.
If you just mean why aren't I listing him at the top of my list, well, you can't have everybody at the top. He's harder to get a handle on because he's always so abrasive (not unlike yourself).
fixed.
I wanted to ask for a votecount anyways.
I was refering to the fact that he wans't at the top of your list.
I am just trying to figure out if my reads on Cyan are just typical Cyan. Like, is he just another Draco who I need to realize posts like that even if he's a townie?
Cause, in a fishbowl, he's scummy as all hell.
@Grak: I'm not sure why you think I'm suspicious of CP. I don't remember ever stating that. I'm suspicious of Xyre, Loran, Ljustus, atlseal, alx2, and ZDS. I unfortunately get accused of being scummy frequently, and I've tried to put more effort into my posts this game to avoid that, though it seems to have accomplished little.
Should we go that route, I'd want to take a hard look at LJustus next.
Proxy Vote to Carrion Pigeons
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I didnt expect fade to jump on wagons for the sake of jumping on wagons...but It'd be nice if we could see some votes to see where fade thinks the most scummy person is at times. When Fade says in #397-that Sutherlands, who he was at the time seemingly going after, was NOT the most scummy player out there, i want to know fade's opinion as to WHO the most scummy person out there is.
IN other words, what fade's doing right now essentially would leave someone looking back at day 1 with absolutely nothing on fade, just like a lurker. And it bothers me, especially from as good a player as fade.
@Cyan, I didnt call you out for being on the ZDS or Atl wagon. I called you out for being particularly lynch-happy with regards to both of them (particularly ZDS), which doesnt particularly strike me as very helpful.
BTW, put me down in the lets lynch Atlseal tomorrow camp. I see no disadvantage of doing that and a potential advantage based on what he says tomorrow.
Anyhow, i g2g, will be back later.
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Could you, maybe give some examples of what you consider “aggressive” play by Arim?
I have to say that I find this paragraph, oh I don’t know, curious. You know, I can’t quite put my finger on it. You’ve been in games like this before. A lot of them and I don’t recall ever hearing you say that any volumn of posts was Too much for you to cope with. I have rarely seen you at a loss to be able to at least contribute in a more “focused” manner then this. This seems……unFade like.
In a fish bowl and out.
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Still interested in going back to Xyre in that case, although Cyan is growing increasingly interesting with that backpedal on cp.
Vamp- no criticism for talking a lot, talking's good. I was just saying that it was late and I didn't have time to really read and analyse something of that length (and the PBPA on you).
5 Atlseal- Xyre, Abbeygargoyle, Alx2, Carrion Pigeons, Cyan
5 Cyan-Grakthis, Vampyr, Hawkeye7, ZDS, Fadeblue
1 LJustus- Sutherlands
1 Loran16- Athos
1 Spoon-Wizzpig
1 Sutherlands- Atlseal
2 Vampyr-Axelrod, Spoon
1 xyre- Pod
6 Not Voting- Hvirfilvindr, Ljustus, Rafaelk, Loran16, Dagger, DYH
23 alive, 13 to lynch.
You later quote that you've seen CP act aggressive as scum before. If you check my PBPA, it's in there.
You're backtracking, yet again.
Yeah... I totally missed that post from Fade. I find that the "waaaah this thread is too complicated/long/much effort I can't keep up!" excuse is a common scum tell.
of course, everytime I catch scum with it, they INSIST that they would have done it as a townie too... so either it's a good tell, or it's just a freak of statistics. You decide.
Kinda like, anytime someone posts "God dammit, I made a huge post and the server ate it." It's baffling, but that is like an 80% hit rate.
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"WHO ARE YOU?"
"Ever think you see something. something out of the corner of your eye and when you turn, there's nothing there. nothing but your heart is now racing and you feel......panic, rising in our gut? You rub your eyes and blink but just before they focus you get a glimpse of.......what the hell was that? It was there and then it was gone."
"It's like when you think you see something suspicous in a mafia game post. You have to ask yourself, is what I thought I saw realy what that was?"
What is that?
"Ah... hey! Look at him. He's suspicious, isn't he? I don't know, what do you guys think? Want to bandwagon him?"
Alx2, If you think he's suspicious, then make a case.
You DO think he's suspicious don't you? OR are you just tossing him out there hoping for what?
That someone else will step in and make the case you haven't?
Or are you hoping to simply redirect attention away from something?
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Keep posting like this, you'll earn my vote yet.
Waffling aside, if you are "torn" then it stands to reason you ought to be willing to give the man another day. What's the worst that could happen? Compare that with the upside. You just gave a list of 6 other people you appear willing to vote for. You really think the guy with all the claimed 1-shot abilities is the best bet?
Also, I'm having trouble believing you would counsciously be trying to put "more effort" into sounding less scummy if you were town.
I'd hate to be accused of trying to derail a popular wagon. Plus, considering the suspect nature of some of the people on this wagon, it seems, to me, that it's worth lynching someone that has a claim that I don't really believe anyway. It's particularly relevant that I don't believe the JoAT aspect of his claim at all.
As for the second bit, believe it. I get accused of being scummy in *every game*, and it often leads to people just ignoring what I say. DotA is a good example. I called out sgdre and stormblind as scum on day 1, and never changed my mind about it, but could never convince anyone. This is clearly because people couldn't put any confidence in what I was saying, because they perceived me as scummy. I don't want that to be the case again, now or ever, if I can help it.
I don't vote unless I have reason to. If I find someone suspicious, I prefer not to openly indicate that unless I plan on going somewhere with it, or if I feel the town is going to otherwise overlook something important (i.e. like how I should have openly come out against DYH and Raf in Court Mafia).
As I've already mentioned, I don't have strong feelings about anyone being scum right now. I haven't seen any major scum tells, and the minor ones I've seen have mostly been negated by minor town tells.
I recently mentioned my current list of leads I'm interested in pursuing. At the time I pointed out Sutherlands, there were two others I had my eye on. I hadn't bothered to sort out who I felt was "scummier"; simply, they were all suspects in my mind. One of them is Cyan. The other I'm not going to mention, since I'm not interested in publicly opening a case right now. It's premature.
Why exactly does that bother you?
Vote ZDS in #102. Two posts later in #212, Vote Vampyr. Next post (#288), back to voting ZDS. Next post (#330), back to voting Vampyr. Three posts later (#350), vote Alx2 with no explanation. Not to mention the confrontational tone all game. I think that qualifies as pretty aggressive to me.
By the way, what's with the slant in your statement: "Certainly nothing that I would say would qualify him as needing to buy a life insurance policy"? Do you really think me threatening to vote him carries that much weight?
Yes, I have been in games like this before. However, the circumstances are different. (If you're interested in hearing "excuses," I can tell you that my work schedule is now more annoying than ever. But whatever.)
No, I actually agree with you. The excuse is certainly more common among scum than town. However, that doesn't mean townies too can't have their own issues.
@AG: Yes, that is a concern. The plan is certainly not completely more optimal.
You know, it might just be me, but I'm pretty sure I didn't say that atl's claim was scummy. I remember saying something about how his behavior was scummy, and I remember saying something about how his claim does nothing to clear him, and I remember saying that JoAT is both easy to fake and commonly faked.
Easily fakeable + separately scummy behavior = highly suspect claim.
Highly suspect claim + Day 1 + lots of responses from the town about him = worthwhile lynch target.
I have stated in other games that Day 1 lasts too long because the town can't accept the possibility of the loss of a power role, no matter how good of a case the claimant to the power role has against him. This is no different. The possibility of an investigation assumes a lot. Even assuming that he is, in fact, town, the doc will have to target him, the mafia need to not have a roleblocker, and he has to be sane (not necessarily common with Jack roles). In fact, given all that, if he's mafia, it would more suspicious that he came up with a result against those kind of odds than that he didn't, and not coming up with a result is pretty darn suspicious.
In other words, he will never be cleared; we can never trust him or his info, which means his role is a perfectly good Day 1 lynch. Waiting for an investigation is pointless.
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Assuming he's town:
The doc shouldn't be protecting him. Given that we're planning to lynch him tomorrow anyway, if the mafia killed him during the night, then they've saved us the trouble and we've almost gained an extra lynch (rather than us lynching him today and the mafia getting to kill who they want, we get to lynch who we want and they kill him).
Same if the mafia have an RB. It's fine if they use it on him, since that means they're not using it on someone else. If we still lynch him tomorrow, it's just like switching today's and tomorrow's lynch (except with the bonus that the mafia wastes an RB, and the drawback that today's lynch is less informed than if it happened tomorrow).
As for sanity, I'm not sure why that's a factor.
In conclusion: atlseal is definitely a good lynch. I'm just thinking there's a possibility to optimize a bit more.
Wait... why would you hate to be accused of detailing a popular wagon?
If your arguments are convincing, then you should make them. No matter if they go against popular opinion or not.
Only scum worry about how their arguments will look to the town. A townie just worries if their arguments are valid.
Well, actually, it's only someone scared of being lynched who etc etc etc. But 80% of the time, that's scum. The other 20% of the time, it's just a townie who can't relax.
I have a more plausible scenario: maybe no one has any confidence in your arguments because your arguments are weak?
Isn't that far more logical than people not trusting you because you're scummy?
The argument stands on its own. If it's a good case, it doesn't matter who makes it.
He's claimed a power role! It's day 1! Give him 3-4 days to prove out his ability at a MINIMUM! It's not like we're searching for 1 last scum. There are 4-5 of them! Get to looking, slackers!
Wizzpig posted very little content, and practically none of it is townish. The underlined part is the important one. I'm not just picking on a lurker here. As for the others:
- Cyan, I'm pretty much on the fence about. Most of what he's doing can be be attributed to the Cyan-just-being-Cyan argument. Jury is still out.
- Loran has been giving me a strong townie vibe. I can elaborate if you want, but for now I'll leave it at that.
- Xyre has a history of being jumped at for imaginary slips. See his almost-lynch in 24 as most recent example. For now, I see his chances of being scum average at best.
- LJustus is the most problematic of the four you mentioned. Still, his problem is mostly lack of content, as opposed to scummy content.
This is true. When you think about it, the only way he could fake being a jack would be if the mafia contains most or all of the roles in question, which means that lynching him would be a lot of risk for less reward. I suppose a one-night reprieve is not unreasonable. Unvote atlseal.
Moving straight down my scumdar... Vote Cyan. The "Cyan being Cyan" argument to me is a load of bull.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Oh really?
Sorry, that doesnt really convince me of much (incidentally, when did Cyan become Manny Ramirez?) and i doubt it'll convince others of much as well....quotes from different games are hardly conclusive with different circumstances and a more experienced player in the later game.
It bothers me because it's something that very easily could benefit a scum, as it leaves the town with no info (or virtually no info) to analyze on you or such a player from all of day 1. If a person is town, then they shouldn't be worried about their day 1 posts being analyzed. But for a scum player, doing what you're doing means that they can easily survive day 1 and start off day 2 unlikely to be a target (barring night actions of course).
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
After my experience with him, I've realized that if you excuse someone for their behavior, they play that way as scum and beat you. While I argued for that in the past, I feel like it's a flawed argument.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
@Grakthis: You would be surprised how many times I have read the following statement(paraphrase): "I agree with that post/the case on (whomever), but am reluctant to place my vote because the post/wagon was created by Cyan, and he seems scummy". When I say 'you would be surprised' I mean that it comes up in every game I play in. There is nothing wrong with a person wanting to improve their playstyle, and the desire to do so certainly doesn't make a person scum. If it takes me being lynched a few times to make this adjustment..then that's life. But I am geniunely tired of being a constant distraction for the town, and I'm going to do something about it.
I apologize for getting snippy about it if you weren't using it as a point against me. Just the way you phrased it came across as such. I was reading too much into it.
Thank you for conceding "a lot" might not be the most accurate. I will also say that yes my on and off of Xyre's was poor. Again, as I said in my last post, I was looking for reactions. My onto loran's, I honestly don't remember. Too much going on. But the off, I think was valid. I find Cyan's actions suspect so far in regards to his uncertainty about who to vote for and his backpedalling. I think Grak's post about him was very on target.
You're right it doesn't. And we could sit here an argue it in circles. It's up to me to change how I play.
This is an appropriate example, if we use my posts as the camera, Axel as the cops stating the obvious and myself as the apprehanded crook with nothing to say to refute the obvious. Axel restate's my posts and throws in the accusation of me being scum. With the camera (my posts) being there for everyone to see and to evaluate, what else can I say about Axel restating my posts besides, "Yes, that's right"?
The problem is that you and Raf are focusing on the guilt aspect of a criminal. That's not the intention of my analogy. It can be twisted to sound as the intention, but then it would quite inaccurate.
The reason why I didn't acknowlege it was because, to me, it didn't come across as being much of an attack. As for the multiple people, it was just Axel, you and Arim that voiced anything more than a "Hey, yeah Vampyr sounds scummy cuz of what Axel said." Three people coming at me doesn't get me too riled. There needs to be more than that.
My question was answered? Where, can you link me the post? I didn't see it. That's why I didn't comment further. One thing I will mention is that I believe atlseal shouldn't be left till tomorrow. If the town is sure of him being scum, why allow him to be left alive to sow any seeds of distrust? Especially after night in which he's had a chance to converse with fellow scum as to the best plan to take.
I still believe Cyan is the better play, but I just wanted to add some input regarding the situation atlseal is in.
There's not much more I can say about this. All I can give you is what I was thinking at the time. My attempts were poor and now it makes me look bad. This is a live and learn situation. I doubt I'll try that sort of thing again.
Good, I don't want to seem like I'm lurking, because I'm not. As for talking to make sure he doesn't claim, a majority of votes went on him while I was at work. The best I could have done was voice my opinion in saying I thought Axel's reasons were poor and didn't think there was much of a case.
As for my the last part. In Sterotype mafia, Cyan got wagon'ed and was forced to claim (thank you ZDS for clearing that up). At that time, I said I believed that Cyan was town because of the way his posts sounded to me. ZDS then used my supposed "pre-existing" knowledge of Cyan's alignment to wagon me and get me to lynch. I was a neutered SK (had to target someone each night and kill the GF before being able to kill anyone else) and was just giving an opinion on Cyan's posts.
In this case here, I was reluctant to say "this wagon is crap, because Axel's reasons are crap." I felt it could be interpreted as me having pre-existing knowledge. Add on top of it, the player I'd be defending was the guy who used such statements against me previously all made me want to avoid commenting on the wagon unless I had to.
Is that a more clear explanation? If not, I will try to restate it again.
Wait...metagming? Where? That comment was strictly me commenting on the multiple games of Clue: Master Detective that I played with friends over the weekend. It was in no way referencing anything I did/am doing or anything anyone else did/are doing in the game.
As for who was speculating about me having something to do with Arim's death: Xyre mentions the possibilty I was connected to it in his commentary about post 212. That was what I was referring to.
Something that keeps sticking out in my mind is that Fade has said "I think we can squeeze a bit more out of this day" at least twice, maybe a third time. What exactly are you expecting to find? Not that I'm in a rush to lynch atlseal, but Cyan is the only other wagon at the moment. If people thought he to be more scummy than atlseal, then there'd be more people after him. I don't think there will be that many minds changing suddenly and going after Cyan. So beyond that, I unable to guess what else you (Fade) hope to find. Any chance you can expand on this?
Does anyone beside me think that Alx's quick agreement of Xyre's simple explanation to be odd? That's just too easy.
PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
Matrix Mafia Town MVP
Medieval Mafia Mafia MVP
Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
I have never been lynched as town. For that matter, I've only been lynched as scum once, IIRC, in Newb 8. On here anyway. I've been lynched as scum a couple of times on other boards as well. I'm not sure what that matters, though. Even without being lynched, I've been forced to claim early in the game a large amount of times, and constantly deal with people being suspicious of me. And as I've said, I've watched relevant arguments of mine get dismissed because people didn't trust my intentions. It has simply gotten tiresome.
1-4. What's been said here isn't going to go anywhere further. You've admitted to doing some scummy things (Xyre's wagon, fence sitting) and blame mostly your play style and inexperience. There's not much more to say other than exactly how bad these things are.
5. I recalled someone explaining more about the Cheshire Cat, but I could be wrong. I'll answer here, I guess: the Cheshire Cat does make sense as a jack of all trades, IMO. He's weird, wacky, and undefined, so doing a little of everything fits for me.
6. See 1-4.
7. I still think you should have commented as soon as you had the chance. Being timid because of a previous game is a bad thing. Being timid in general is a bad thing. Get your voice out there.
That was clear enough for me, by the way. Thanks.
8. I took the comment you made to imply that we should not consider you to have had any part in Arim's death because you hadn't been at the computer all weekend. That's metagaming, and that's bad.
Alright on Xyre suspecting you.
Overall, I still think you've done some seriously scummy things and don't have an explanation for them beyond 'yeah, I'm working on that'. That just doesn't seem good.
That is a sign of a really really weak town. You will not find a town like that in this game, because I will not let people do that. Arguments will be judged on their merit, not on who posts them.
No. I also thought it was a good answer. A flawed answer, obv... but a valid one from a metagaming POV.
If someone does something bad, you smack them in the nose and tell them "no." You don't just "accept" it and move on.
Like, if your friend is ALWAYS late, you don't just accept that they are always late. Because someday when they are late, it's going to screw you over in some important way.
Instead, you yell at them and tell them to stop being late.
If you really need to know: a couple of times in this game, he had the exact ideas as I did. The second time was when he asked Fadeblue to prove he can vote; at the same time, I was actually in the process of checking who didn't vote yet and noted Fade never voted. "Hmm," I thought, "I wonder if I should ask Fade about it directly," - and then I noted Loran just did.
The first time, I actually forgot what it was, but I do remember noting to myself, "wow, this guy is thinking the same way I am". I don't have the time right now to scour the thread and find out what it was.
Wait, you've never been lynched as town, and yet you still felt this compelling need to change your style? And change it to a style where you are constantly expressing your doubts, and waffling back and forth about people? You think this is more beneficial to the town? You think that is going to get people to be less suspicious of you and take your "arguments" more seriously?
I don't like the similarities between all these posts:
Cyan has claimed, however, to know for a certainty the existance of 2 non-Matrix roles in the game. I don't recall whether he ever specified if he was one of them, but that's clearly the assumption. He knows this, although he is not a "Mason" with that other role.
Answer me this Cyan: Do you know the alignment of this other role that you are not a Mason with, but that you know is in the game and is not from the Matrix?
Vamp has made me not want to be voting for him anymore at the present time:
Unvote
My vote could easily go to Hvir. who has disappeared. Possibly LJustus. And also possibly Cyan, who is definitely not posting as I would expect, and even admits to it, but claims he is making a deliberate effort to change a playstyle that has never resulted in his lynch as town, but apparently results in people distrusting him too much.
I thought I had made it clear the "squeezing a bit more out" was in reference to letting atlseal live a day before lynching him, so we can get the results of his claimed investigation.
While we don't necessarily need to lynch him tomorrow, he will remain to be a good lynch candidate unless he somehow gets cleared by a cop investigation (which I believe would be a waste of an investigation).
The thing is, there is no way to sufficiently prove a JoAT role. Extra days do nothing to improve his claim. Even the vig part of a JoAT (assuming he has one) can be easily spoofed, depending on the circumstances.
I disapprove of this question.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
You disapprove of him saying if he knows the alignment?