MTG Salvation

(Ok, I want him to stop right in front of the Grakthis-O-Matic Miracle Slicer, Dicer advertisment. I don't care how you do it. Dropped dollar, lost puppy it doesn't matter. Just do it.)

"Hey! Is That a Sacajawea dollar coin?"
(Stops, stoops and picks up coin.)
"This must be My lucky day!"

"Bad logic. You can't any further away from the truth before you are forced to come back."
"On the money post Grakthis."

"I've been thinking. You know, about Arimnaes and why he was killed. From what I hear he was one of the players that was really putting some effort into doing this "Roleplaying" thing. And again, I've heard that this "game" was designed to have an element built into it for "Roleplaying", you know, like it was a designed part of the "Game" and was supposed to happen.
So, I was thinking, could a players ability vary depending on the amount of roleplaying that player did? More roleplaying, stronger ability?"
"It's just a thought. Those agents in the movies, well some of them seemed to get stronger the the others, sort of."

Ok, now to address a couple of things:

As to the flavor of my role Pod and Cyan are interested in:
- My PM doesn't explicitly state what version of the Matrix my software is from, but it does say that I've become quite adept at hiding in the code

Now, as to the death of arimnaes, I'd think there are two possible scenarios:
1) Like Xyre initially said, it could be a delayed action
2) The kill had to happen between posts 636 and 655

I have some more analysis to go through, but that will probably have to wait until Monday because I'm entertaining some friends in about an hour.

Quote from ZeDorkSlipeur

Determining what is roleplay and what is not is easy, but how do you (objectively) separate degrees of roleplaying ?

"yARGH!"
“ What do you do with a drunken sailor ?”
“What do you do with a drunken sailor?….”
“Ooops! “
“Wrong Game.” :D"

"Isn't that, like beauty, in the eye of..............Well, just think about it."

Daykilling again? I was hoping that az wouldn't repeat himself.

Unvote due to the new developments (though atl is still fishy). Im busy as hell again today, but this week im going to finish my analyses posts. Arim's will be especially interesting..

Quote from loran16

Daykilling again? I was hoping that az wouldn't repeat himself.

Unvote due to the new developments (though atl is still fishy). Im busy as hell again today, but this week im going to finish my analyses posts. Arim's will be especially interesting..

This post reads as faked and forced.

Like the first guy who shows up after a no-kill night and goes "YES! NO KILLS LAST NIGHT!!!!!!"

Yeah. You're working your way up my list in a hurry.

Quote from Disrupt_Your_Hymn

Well, based on CP's early posts, the pattern I suspected was there based on his recent trend is not. So, I'm not sure why he's come out guns blazing waving his multi-vote around. But frankly, I don't even want him to answer that.

I fully disagree with Loran - until otherwise disproven, multi-voters - particularly with more than 2 votes - are generally town. If, down the road, CP cannot demonstrate his ability to continute to multi-vote, it should be considered fully suspicious. In fairness to loran's other point, though, this is (an Azrael) specialty, so the balance of power may be different. Some things are hard to overcome in weighting a setup, though. A scum with three votes- that'd be awfully tough.

So, until we can suitably "check" his voting ability or have a better idea of the scope of overall power, it should be assumed he's at least "more likely town than not". Tossing a wagon on CP today is ridiculous.

Proxy vote to Carrion Pigeons

Here, have four.

Forgive me if this is addressed elsewhere in the thread and I haven't seen it yet.

I have played a lot of mafia elsewhere and I have never seen a multi-voter that works like this. Please, someone, explain the mechanics of this ability and why it is almost always a town ability?

Also, if this ability functions the way I suspect it does, flavorfully it appears ot be some sort of an influence peddling mechanic. If that is indeed how it works, given the flavor of this game why would it be assumed that this is a town ability?

The only character I can think of who would really fit an inluence ability is the Merovingian.

Quote from Pod

Would I know you as something different from something else, then?

Doubtful.

Quote from Pod

And I don't think it's worth speculating what role CP is. The guy has 3 votes. Strikes me as unlikely a multivoter of that amount would exist unhindered amongst the scums, doesn't it you?

There are a couple of problems here.

1. This doesn't actually answer my question. How does the mechanic work exactly and why is the assumption that it is generally a town aligned mechanic held?

2. I'm trying to fit displayed abilities into a logical picture. The entire game is a system that can have multiple outcomes depending on the inputs provided. I'm trying to understand that system so that I can better predict outcomes and probabilities. So speculating on what kind of characters might have that ability is somewhat helpful.

3. I've seen some wacky abilities goto scum, I am disinclined to just accept on face value that a given role wouldn't goto scum. Particularly so in an Azrael game. Let me ask you, have you ever seen a scum doctor?

I give significantly higher credence to mason claims, and uncounterclaimed cops, but essentially I do not trust anyone's alignment until I see their corpse on the floor.

Quote from ZeDorkSlipeur

What does Arimnaes' death has to do with why you're voting atl ?

It doesn't really. But i started doing this review of every player in the game, and i want to see what i think of arim and other's reactions to him (by finishing my afore-mentioned review) before i decide what to do with my vote at the moment. If i find nothing, then atlseal will once again get my vote. But i started my review so that i would place that vote on the most scummy player, and got distracted by the ongoing wagon on atl. Im going to continue with my original intent at this time.

Quote from Pod

PS: Doing absolutely nothing for 40+ pages then only coming in the thread to ***** about someone being likely confirmed doesn't exactly inspire me.

If that's all you got out of this exchange, then you need to learn how to read.

I asked for information about a role, which you did not provide until asked again, asked for clarification on why the assumption is made that role is town, and explained my stance on confirmed vs not confirmed townies.

If you're willing to reduce that down to "***** about someone being likely confirmed" I'm cool with that. Just so long as you're aware that it is disengenuous, adversarial, and does absolutely nothing to help the town win the game. You do want to help the town win the game, don't you?

Quote from Athos

If that's all you got out of this exchange, then you need to learn how to read.

I asked for information about a role, which you did not provide until asked again, asked for clarification on why the assumption is made that role is town, and explained my stance on confirmed vs not confirmed townies.

If you're willing to reduce that down to "***** about someone being likely confirmed" I'm cool with that. Just so long as you're aware that it is disengenuous, adversarial, and does absolutely nothing to help the town win the game. You do want to help the town win the game, don't you?

Rather silly for a player who hasnt done anything all game to just start a meaningless fight. That doesn't help the town at all either you know.

While i don't think your actions right now are scummy, I'd hope that your future posts contain analysis about the current game and players, as well as questions in case you have them.

Quote from loran16

Rather silly for a player who hasnt done anything all game to just start a meaningless fight. That doesn't help the town at all either you know.

Do you really think that is what I was doing?

Interesting...

Quote from Athos

Do you really think that is what I was doing?

Interesting...

So it appeared. Your tone of voice was just as adversarial, if not more, than Pod's . But i'd hope you'd listen to my 2nd part of my post rather than try and bring this up further.

Anyhow, back to reviewing.

Quote from Xyre

If you're trying to argue that I am Smith, then just stop there. It was an observation on my part that bothered me. Nothing more, nothing less.

There's that defensiveness again. One would think you have a guilty conscience.


Grakthis: That's exactly what I thought. And to be honest, I don't believe Azrael would intentionally create a mismatch like that. Everything made sense in Sin City. Some of it had to be explained in endgame (such as armlx, Hawkeye and the scrap of paper), but it all lined up. If your ability requires people with physical bodies, that fits with ZDS' claim but not atlseal's claim. Personally, I'm prepared to take the punt on atlseal given that.

unvote, vote atlseal



Also agreeing with grak on loran's post. It's another reaction to the kill that comes across as scripted rather than natural.

Leave over the weekend to attend a wedding, and the thread doubles in size. Typical.

I believe atlseal's role name, if not his alignment. I remain skeptical with regard to the jack-of-all-trades ability. Had you talked about shifting from location to location I would have probably have accepted your claim more readily.

Earlier, I had an issue with ZDS confessing to the invalid (-2 to lynch) portion in his role, since he could have just gone with his mason claim. This time, I'm wondering why atlseal didn't claim simple roleblocker with an odd posting restriction, which the other players would have a less difficult time believing AND would be less of a threat on the radar to the Mafia (assuming that atlseal is town).

Hang on- you're assuming atlseal is town, then wondering why he didn't lie if he's town? There's a simple answer there.

The more relevant question is why he claimed like this if he's scum. Possibly because it's true, or close enough to true, other than alignment. Possibly trying to barn in on the belief that sharing the -2 restriction and the connection with Grakthis' role would make him look townie and/or take the benefit of whatever Grak's ability is. Possibly just thinking that claiming weirdly would make people think he must be townie because scum would come up with a "better" claim... it's a proven successful tactic here, after all.

Quote from RafaelK

Hang on- you're assuming atlseal is town, then wondering why he didn't lie if he's town? There's a simple answer there.

I'm comparing atlseal's claim to ZDS' earlier claim. ZDS could have claimed mason, and stayed silent about the invalid portion. Likewise here atlseal could have claimed roleblocker, and stayed silent about the rest of his abilities until they became relevant.

If he's a townie, though, and claims straight roleblocker, he runs the risk of messing up the town by drawing a counterclaim from an actual roleblocker plus drastically lowers the odds of him being believed if he says "hey guys, I'm also a one-shot vig who vigged X!" on a later day.

To put it another way, if he's town, I think he did the right thing in terms of the jack-of-all-trades claim. Lying and claiming RB would have been bad.

However, I think I'm agreeing with you when I say I don't see why atl as town would feel the need to reveal the drawback. The arguments for not letting that kind of information out were canvassed in the ZDS mason talk. As such, I think it's quite possible he said to try and barn onto the townie vibe of ZDS and Grakthis... except he messed up, because his claim of being a legacy computer program doesn't fit with the flavour of Grakthis' ability.

If I can speculate even MORE rampantly- a figure completely beyond the Matrix makes sense as part of a group somehow subverting the Matrix into a nightmare (especially since the Cat is actually part of Alice's nightmare world!).

Casey Jones and Shredder were mafia in Sin City, you know (of course, April O'Neil was town).

Okay, im posting my analyses of axel and rafk right now, since im finished for the night and they took a while. I'm doing these in order of the list of players, and i havent done all of them yet, so thus no votes.

RafaelK-
#39-Reacts to DYH’s proxy of his vote to Raf, mentions arim’s RPing as not particularly a sign of town or scum (reference court mafia)
#42-Re: CP, responds he doubts spoon’s screen name is from the “there is no spoon”. Mentions he finds gimmicks in games weird.
#47-Jokes that the Grak-loran fight similar to Raf v Cyan in other games
#59-Finds Xyre’s response to my accusation of fishing weird and votes him
#132-Remarks that CP if town, was better off not revealing the multivote due to recruitment possiblitiy. Once again asks Xyre what he was talking about re: “we” and “intentional or unintentional”.
#168-Remarks that Xyre’s wagon isn’t a lynching wagon and how he hates the “woe is me” thing. Comments that he agrees with axel that zds’ flip-flop is weird but isn’t willing to send his vote off of zds just yet.
#197-Remarks that Hvir appears to be fence sitting on Xyre. Remarks that votes are useful at this time (wondering if Hvir has proved he can even vote at this point). Says that discounting any votes for being the first is a terrible reason.
#198-Re: Xyre’s conjecture on my and Xyre’s wagons being the choices of the town, asks xyre “Who made you the boss of what the town has decided” and asks why that post sounds like he’s commenting the town as if he’s an outside entity.
#203-Re: Hvir’s response to 197, he notes that Hvir’s vote has not been seen on a vote count.
#204-EBWODP apologizing for misquote.
#280-Is confused by zds’ #261-, explains Arim’s use of “mr.” is not an indication of anything, and wonders why I don’t stand by my post (the pirate one). Says the “I don’t like your style peeing matches” between Grak, Hvir, Loran, Xyre, Cp etc aren’t helping and need to stop.
#297-Re: ZDS’ response to axelrod, says he thinks that ZDS “slipped”, and that he was already suspicious anyway. Asks him to claim.
#428-Re: Fade’s comment on Suth and ZDS, says he thought this might have been what fade meant. Says he considered it, but considered Suth but that ZDS had seemed scummy already. Find’s Alx interesting (following his pickup on Cyan), but find’s his behavior so far to be townie, and doesn’t approve of arim pursuing him. Likes Grathkis, and finds Xyre’s PBPA on me “incredibly loaded” and that pbpa’s based on details come across as people pretending to be helpful. Notes that Cyan’s revelation of non matrix roles is not surprising, and that he disagrees with Grak about outing the other mason. Thought that atl had claimed the -2 thing first
#429- Corrects himself on atl and zds on who claimed the -2. Notes that it was in interesting.
#445-Says Sutherlands’ plan was stupid but way too stupid to be scummy. Likes the xyre wagon still.
#448-Responds to Hawkeye’s question about a scum multivoter. Responds to fade saying he thinks a push against ZDS here is stupid, but that originally ZDS’ wagon was justified. Says that he thinks that ZDS’ claim is solid.
#455-Says Alx’s math is misleading, and that lynching the masons is hardly town-oriented.
#484-Disagrees with ZDS, saying that as long as mason 2 is hidden, then mafia might randomly kill him (protown). FOSes DYH saying he should’ve worked that out. Says its not worth it to force the ZDS situation today.
#492-Defends Grak from AG’s cop-directing accusation. Tells pod his math fails to account for multiple night kills per night , saying that he can’t imagine only 1 NK a night in an azrael game.
#520-Says he thinks he understands what Xyre means regarding what Grak’s ability is. Says that it means that none of them are confirmed townies due to the drawback.
#521-asks xyre if he thinks there’s possibly more than Grak with Grak’s ability. Asks if this is the case, and if so, should they counterclaim him.
#525-Asks dyh if he sees that another -2 person was in the game, and that vigging is not a serious option. Asks DYH why is he doing this if this step only works out if DS is scum,. Says he think’s theres a scum player looking for a -2 role, and that DYH’s “stealth desire” to expose ZDS’ partner worries him. Votes DYH.
#528-Replies to dyh, saying that he thinks that DYH is one of those searching for liability people (-2s), and that he thinks DYH is a scum searcher.
#529-More with regards to DYH’s last post. Asks DYH once again if DYH thinks ZDS is town, why is he presenting a plan that only is good if ZDS is scum. Says that he has reason to present this theory. Mentions that DYH has been a mason in several recent games and he’s pretty sure town DYH never supported outing partners for these reasons as in this game.
#533-Re: DYH, once again points out that as town in the 2 mason games, he was not in favor of outing his masons in either games, and they were revealed only due to others’ actions.
#538-Mentions once again that DYH was only willing for partners to come out after pressure and that he never proposed it himself. Tells Cyan he’ll wait on atlseal till other opinions of DYH, and jokingly says hi to Athos.
#541-After me and Cyan respond thinking DYH is town, Rafk asks again if there is “no interest at all why he wants to out the other mason”.
#543-Tries to reference his 484 (see above), before DYH had the chance to “tweak his story and get moral support form cyan, who always opposes him.” Restates that DYH constantly tries to make an argument about outing the mason, and that Rafk “had him cold on that” and that then DYH tried to make the argument on conditions about outing the mason. Says this is classic scum passive-aggressive behavior. Raf continues:

Quote from rafk »

Look, I know DYH is a master of acting reasonable when he's caught out, and I know that my style tends to turn people off without even reading what I say. Build a bridge and get over it- DYH has been caught red-handed using scum tactics and is trying to weasel out by changing the focus. Realising this is your first step towards analysing play instead of analysing attitude.

#551-Re DYH’s argument that Raf has to post proof or retract, quotes a post from DotA, saying that town DYH would never want the mason revealed when it’s not a benefit to the town to reveal a mason. Tries to ask DYH is he wants the town to vig ZDS or not.
#591-In response to a grak post about grak’s playstyle, says that Grak plays like Rafk. Says that he’s reading Grak as town for it, despite disagreeing with everything he says.
#653-Says that Pod was right about what LJ said (about LJ meaning that he’s voting atl only cuz he doesn’t want to vote for Cyan, not because atl is scummy). Mentions that Atl’s claim confuses his understanding of the -2, saying he thought it only made sense for bluepills, and yet atl claimed a program. Says he’s going to follow Grak’s lead on this. Unvotes DYH “since part of the basis for that just left the station.”
#672-Says Xyre’s reaction jumps out for “wanting to use this as a basis for doubting smith being in the game.” Says that his current suspicion list is headed by Xyre, Cyan and Atlseal. Still wants to know what Grak thinks of atl’s claim.
#694-Says that Xyre is being defensive, wonders if he has a “guilty conscience”. Votes atl based on the flavor of Grak’s role, and agrees with Grak about my post being scripted rather than natural.
#696-Says that Hvir is assuming Atl is town, and that people think that claiming weirdly makes people think he must be townie for wifom reasons, saying it’s a successful tactic here after all (referencing arim’s role I believe).
#698-responds to H-guy, saying that if atl is town, he did the right thing, but doesn’t see why atl would reveal the drawback. Speculates to flavor of his role being scummy, and references Casey and Shredder in sin city.

Final Thoughts: WHEW! That’s a LOT of posts. Rafk’s very interesting. He starts off on Xyre for the unintentional “we”, then moves to ZDS after axel, but never votes ZDS (despite pressing him for claim). Then he goes after DYH extremely strongly, and does so in a way that is interestingly filled with loaded words. I say interestingly because that was his complaint about Xyre’s pbpa. His 543 is certainly interesting…Raf’s right, it sounds extremely like Grak’s earlier post (after Grak’s response to Sutherlands about loaded language), just a bit more subtle. Essentially its like, “I’m right here guys, so just follow me!”
He’s around during the early part of the atl wagon, but is on DYH instead, and then is offline till Atl claims. At that point, he gets on ATl for the flavor based reasons with regards to Grak’s role, while insinuating Xyre is scummy as well as listing cyan as scummy, despite no posts referencing Cyan except for his disagreement over DYH.
I don’t know, he’s extremely close with Grak f or the entire game, and he’s been on every wagon (Xyre (who he continues to press), ZDS (though he never actually voted him, and Atl (Though only after atl claimed a powerful role).) He’s also tried to push DYH on shotty reasoning, and only gave him up after “the basis had left the station.”
I don’t think he’s the scummiest player right now, but he’s certainly seems to be a little questionable to me.

Axelrod:
#9-Jokes about random vote.
#26-Votes Zedork for asking setup questions and setup speculation
#32-In Response to CP, Ax makes a post seemlingly roleplaying, saying that aksing an other guy to share info with you is scummy (or at least that’s what I think he says)
#127-In RPing voice again, says that CP’s multivote means squat and wonders why he’d flaunt the votes so openly
#136-After Xyre’s first response to Rafk, thinks that Xyre looks like he overshot himself in his first post and is backtracking like a caught scum. Votes Xyre.
#143-Responds to CP’s response, saying the game he’s referencing in 127 was court mafia
#146-Says that CP ‘s response that he’ll demonstrate the vote on other days, axel says that he’s seen scum act the way CP just did, and that the multi vote doesn’t convince him.
#147-Re Xyre’s response, says that Xyre’s question wasn’t checking to make sure it wasn’t a typo, says that it doesn’t look that way but more like a direct asking about a role.
#152-Re Xyre again, Mentions that curiousity would be normal, but as a regular mafia player, his actions were not townie, and that it looks like he’s trying to treat the generalness of the question as in Xyre’s favor. Says that Xyre’s claim that it might’ve been an accident was weak.
#167-Inquires about ZDS’ flip-flop and Xyre, noticing that he went from all-over him to acting like he’s (Xyre) is ZDS’ best buddy.
#189-Says CP may be on to something in his hvir vote, unvotes and votes Hvir.
#283-Brings up the ZDS and Sutherlands point, Votes ZDS.
#285-Responds to my point about Sutherlands not being faking in confusion.
#292-Uses DYH’s vote to put further pressure on ZDS.
#316-Asks ZDS the 2 questions, 1. about confirmness, and 2. is there something he’s holding back about his role. Unvotes and unvotes DYH’s vote.
#321-Re: My saying we don’t need to know #2, says he doesn’t care about my opinion.
#325-Re: DYH on question #2, says that he has problems with the claim, says that mason gambit is possible of ZDS so he’s not rolling over.
#351-Re: Alx’s point about cyan’s quote and its similarity to 24 mafia, says that the fact alx looked it up is worth a lot in axel’s book.
#360-Re: Arim’s response to 351, said that the amount of effort makes the argument more genuine. Notes that he’s underwhelmed with ZDS’ response (? I think I got this right, not sure I understand this paragraph), and says that ZDS is one of 4 people worthy of a review right now.
#415-Says that his issues with the claim stem from the -2 to lynch, and that it’s so inelegant. Also doubts that masons would get the same PM. Says there are others to lookout though.
#419-Says fade’s response to setup speculation was overly dramatic.
#425-Re: Pod, disagrees with him about elegance, says that people dismissing the possibility of a fake mason group are naïve or scummy.
#431-Responds to sutherland’s crappy plan saying he’s scummy, and asking if suth has any opinion or is just trying to get ZDS lynched no matter what.
#433-Re: Pod, says he’s learned to be paranoid (in RP voice again)
#504-Says that Grath’s revelations make ZDS’ claim more believable and Elegant. Says the group of vamp, hvir, suth, xyre, and loran is what he’s twinging on, especially vamp and hvir.
#514-PBPA of Vamp, ends with a vote on Vamp due to wagoning, weak justification for votes, pot shots at Axel and possibly fence sitting.
#550-H-guy PBPA, says that he’s not made a serious vote the whole game and that everything he says has been wishy washy, and that axel’s hardly impressed. Says he hasn’t looked at the Atlseal wagon just yet.
#552-Says the Raf DYH argument is nothing really.
#565-Asks atl what he thought when ZDS claimed the -2 to lynch disability, and what his thoughts on ZDS’ alignment were at that point.
#567-Re: Atl, points out atl didn’t unvote ZDS
#569-Notes Atl’s rememberence of the events he asked about was backwards.
#597-Re Cyan’s response to grath, says that his response to the pbpa is underwhelming but that Vamp’s lack of response is disturbing.
#599-Says Atl’s name claim does nothing.
#617-Points out where Atl uses the smilie
#634-Says he’s not in favor of lynching Atl, and that quick votes are disturbing.
#656-Re: Arim’s death: “lovely”.

Final Thoughts: Axel is certainly not out of the ordinary. Every action he takes is logical and has followed reasoning, and while I disagree with some of his judgments (the 2nd question to ZDS), they have all seemed like they were townie. He hasn’t bandwagoned at all, and everything comes off as genuine.

I completely disbelieve atlseal's claim. No, this is not a counterclaim per se, but looking at my own role, the presence of one such as he claimed is highly unlikely. For now vote atlseal

On Vamp: The biggest points against Vamp for me are that he was on a lot of wagons early and has sat on the fence much more than he should. I see this is as a big scum tell. Loran backs up Vamp when he says this is part of Vamp's playstyle, but that doesn't mean he should be given a free pass on it. It's still scummy.

Here's a PBPA of Vamp post Axelrod's PBPA (514 on):

548: Asks DYH about his opinion on ZDS's partner coming out and on potentially vigging them.

573: Defends himself against a point against him made by Dagger. Note that Dagger's point was terrible.

579: Says he agrees with Grak's analysis of Cyan, tries to bring Grak down from his perch (good luck), and then votes Cyan.

630: Starts by shaking off Dagger again, states that he's a chronic fence sitter, and then finally comments on Axelrod's attack on him. He doesn't defend himself so much as say that Axelrod is misinterpreting his actions (though he doesn't say how). He says he hasn't responded up until now because there weren't any questions to respond to.

This, IMO, is a terrible reason not to comment on an attack made on you.

Then he fence sits on atlseal's claim.

That's all in the last few hundred posts. I particularly like that his defense against Axelrod is, more or less, 'Yeah, I did all of those things you pointed out, but not for the scummy reasons you said I did them for'. And then he goes on to... not give his actual reasons.

Vampyr hasn't done anything particularly townie since the game started, he's wagoned and barned plenty, and he's sat on the fence all over the place.

In his last post he asked for questions to respond to, so here's a few: how do you explain your actions so far this game? Are you just going to write off your fence sitting as 'a bad habit' and your wagoning voting patterns as just the way you decided to vote? What about Axelrod's summary paragraph:

Quote from Axelrod »

I don't see anything particularly townish here. A lot of stuff that I could see a scum doing. The wagoning, the weak justification of votes, the mild pot-shots at me. Vamp. not saying anything about ZDS the entire time of that wagon was suspicious. And the way he defended Xyre, voted Xyre, and unvoted Xyre don't really track. I don't see what "responses" of Xyre's that he made that would have made Vamp. feel better about him. Vamp didn't point any of those out either, just said that he was detecting this townish "tone" from them. Hasn't given very many opinions about other players either - he's been fairly narrowly focused. Xyre, Loran, and that's about it. Seems like he's definitely trying to stay under the radar and not make waves.

Can you explain better the reasoning behind all the actions here? It's not that hard to respond to things like this, even when they're not put in question form.

Um, why? Your claim and Grak's claim make sense together, flavourwise. You're a bluepill (assuming you're telling the truth), Grak claims to have an ability that targets people with physical bodies (which is true of bluepills but not computer programs) and which can remove your disability, and atlseal claims to have the same drawback as you... but is a computer program.

Therefore, atlseal's claim has a hole in it, which added to everything else = bye bye.

Looks like things are headed in the right direction, IMO. Atlseal still looks scummy, and the claim isn't fitting.

For future reference, the comment by LJustus earlier about "either or" should be kept in mind. I think pod already addressed it, but it shot off alarm bells as soon as I read it.

Quote from RafaelK

However, I think I'm agreeing with you when I say I don't see why atl as town would feel the need to reveal the drawback. The arguments for not letting that kind of information out were canvassed in the ZDS mason talk. As such, I think it's quite possible he said to try and barn onto the townie vibe of ZDS and Grakthis... except he messed up, because his claim of being a legacy computer program doesn't fit with the flavour of Grakthis' ability.

I'll go ahead and explain this for those of you that didn't figure this out... Right after ZDS had claimed his invalid-portion of the claim, I stated that I had reason to believe this. Now, I would think this would lead people to eventually figure out that I had the same drawback. So, that combined with my belief (apparently wrong) that town should never lie led to me claiming my complete role.

I can't give you guys anything but what my role really is, and the thought that players are using that as a reason to be lynched (telling the truth about it) is what sickens me here.

If you're going to make an argument about how I've played, fine. I can argue that and provide my reasoning/thought process behind it. However, if you're going to use the role I was given as a prime motivator, something is fishy. If I'm lynched for this, I urge the rest of the town to closely examine those on the wagon that tried to use this claim as a reason to lynch me, because from my point of view, it's preposterous.

EBWODP: The least you could let me try to do is prove my role tonight.

Quote from RafaelK

Um, why? Your claim and Grak's claim make sense together, flavourwise. You're a bluepill (assuming you're telling the truth), Grak claims to have an ability that targets people with physical bodies (which is true of bluepills but not computer programs) and which can remove your disability, and atlseal claims to have the same drawback as you... but is a computer program.

Therefore, atlseal's claim has a hole in it, which added to everything else = bye bye.

Yeah, but my ability could have, theoretically, been used on our dead Agent too.... he was a townie and had no physical body.

There are flavor flaws in my ability being used on ANY computer program, but we already know we have computer programs in the town, so I don't think that argument holds water.

Quote from RafaelK

Um, why? Your claim and Grak's claim make sense together, flavourwise. You're a bluepill (assuming you're telling the truth), Grak claims to have an ability that targets people with physical bodies (which is true of bluepills but not computer programs) and which can remove your disability, and atlseal claims to have the same drawback as you... but is a computer program.

Therefore, atlseal's claim has a hole in it, which added to everything else = bye bye.

Actually, I disagree strongly with this part. It seems like flavor doesn't trump over mechanics in this game. My own ability flavorfully is one that affects bluepills. However, mechanically, it says I can target any player. So there.

EBWODP: The least you could let me try to do is prove my role tonight.

Wanna vig ZDS for us?

I really dislike atlseal's claim. The Cheshire Cat thing does not sit well with me, and the JoAT claim is something I have seen mafiosi do multiple times as they can share results (especially backlogged ones like docs/investigations).

He still has yet to point out somewhere in my PBPA where I twisted his words. He repeatedly has said that I did this, but then backpedaled into saying just the analysis section. This issue sort of got side-tracked by the daykill but it bears bringing up again. The only thing that he has really been focusing on from my arguing with him is admittedly the weakest point of the argument: the child analogy (which I still say holds more water than CP gives it credit for).

I am much more inclined to believe that the daykill came from a non-town aligned source than a town one at the moment.

PPE: I see the new post by atlseal, I'll have more to say about it after a meeting.

I'm going to address things slightly out of order in which you asked them.

First:

Quote from Spoon

That's all in the last few hundred posts.

Axel's PBPA occured Thursday at 3:15 pm EST. I work in the evenings and don't post between 2:30 pm EST and midnight EST. Then, as I had previously stated, on Friday I was leaving for the weekend to go to my parents. I have not had the time to do a lot of posting. Not that it's normally my style to be a prolific poster, but before you start condemning me for my lack of posting since the PBPA and insinuating that it's scummy that I haven't posted much, realize I do have other things that get prioritized above logging on and this game.

Quote from Spoon

On Vamp: The biggest points against Vamp for me are that he was on a lot of wagons early and has sat on the fence much more than he should.

I was on two. Xyre's and loran's. That's 2 out of 4 (counting ZDS and atlseal as the others), hardly "a lot". On the other hand, show me someone who's been on less wagons than I and I'll show you someone that you could be just as concerned about as you are of me.

Quote from Spoon

I see this is as a big scum tell. Loran backs up Vamp when he says this is part of Vamp's playstyle, but that doesn't mean he should be given a free pass on it. It's still scummy.

You see it as a big scum tell because you haven't played with me. But just because it's a scum tell doesn't make it fact that it's coming from a scum. As I said, I'm trying to do this less. I can't change people's opinions on me over night, almost literally, mind you.

Quote from Spoon

He says he hasn't responded up until now because there weren't any questions to respond to.

This, IMO, is a terrible reason not to comment on an attack made on you.

So if someone rob's a bank, is caught on surveillance and there's a clear picture of their face and then is subsequently caught and hauled in for questioning and the cops open up with "We have you clear as day on tape. You robbed the bank." What is there to say?

You did the same thing in your PBPA of my recent posts. All you did was restate what I typed in my posts. Yup, that's exactly what I typed. I'm not skittish and feel the need to jump in and start explaining myself just because someone types my name in a post. If a question is asked of me, a reasonable accusation leveled at me or someone mis-stating something I've done or said is brought up, yes I will respond to my name being mentioned. Someone regurgitating what I typed, pointing a finger and saying "Scum", while an accusation, is fairly hollow and I didn't see a need to say anything in response. Just because you, Axel or the next guy thinks I should respond to it and says so, doesn't mean I'm going to automatically bend knee and follow your wishes. I'll defend myself when I feel I need to, not when someone else demands it of me. If that gets me rung up the claim pole, fine, I'm quite ok with that.

Quote from Spoon

Then he fence sits on atlseal's claim.

Speaking of terrible points. This is what I said:

Quote from Vampyr

As for atlseal's claim, the Cheshire Cat seems to be an odd add for the Matrix. I'm not too familiar with the story of Alice in Wonderland, so I'm not sure what the story says the Cat can do. Is it able to be a jack of all things in some way, similiar to what atlseal says his role is? Initial reaction without an answer to my question is to not believe atlseal. But it's not enough to convince me right now to move my vote at this time.

I said I don't believe his claim. If my question was answered to the positive, I would believe him. If it was answered in the negative, it would re-inforce my disbelief of his claim. All of which is rather irrelevant, because I believe my vote is best left where it's at. So it's fence sitting to be willing to change one's mind when new and relevant evidence is presented. Interesting. Guess what, everyone fence sits then.

Quote from Spoon

Vampyr hasn't done anything particularly townie since the game started, he's wagoned and barned plenty, and he's sat on the fence all over the place.

And you'll be pointing out to me examples of where everyone else in the game has done something particularly townie? I look forward to that. Otherwise, what's the point of making this statement, in which you restate what you've already said in this post?

Quote from Spoon

In his last post he asked for questions to respond to, so here's a few: how do you explain your actions so far this game? Are you just going to write off your fence sitting as 'a bad habit' and your wagoning voting patterns as just the way you decided to vote? What about Axelrod's summary paragraph:

Quote from Axelrod »

I don't see anything particularly townish here. A lot of stuff that I could see a scum doing. The wagoning, the weak justification of votes, the mild pot-shots at me. Vamp. not saying anything about ZDS the entire time of that wagon was suspicious. And the way he defended Xyre, voted Xyre, and unvoted Xyre don't really track. I don't see what "responses" of Xyre's that he made that would have made Vamp. feel better about him. Vamp didn't point any of those out either, just said that he was detecting this townish "tone" from them. Hasn't given very many opinions about other players either - he's been fairly narrowly focused. Xyre, Loran, and that's about it. Seems like he's definitely trying to stay under the radar and not make waves.

Can you explain better the reasoning behind all the actions here? It's not that hard to respond to things like this, even when they're not put in question form.

I'll guessing by "actions" you're saying that I should take each statement of Axel's and view it as a question. So rather than answer your actual questions, which are rather vague and open ended, and rife with the opportunities for you to twist what I would respond with, I'll "answer" Axel's statements.

I voted Xyre to see what sort of reactions I'd get out of people. I felt he was somewhat scummy when I voted him, I still think he was stretching on his explanation, I didn't feel that he was vote worthy. But I decided to vote him and see what was said. Once his wagon grew too quickly, I didn't want to be part of it as I wasn't entirely convinced of his guilt. So I unvoted when I could, when I caught up on the thread.

I didn't comment on ZDS because I thought Axel's reasons were very bogus. "Hey, he comments on how someone is posting two posts into the game. Dun, dun, daaa...there must me something afoot." Or it could be someone making an off hand comment just on observation. Now, please tell me, if I were to say that when things were occuring, exactly what difference would it make, beyond my opinion being known? Not a whole helluva lot.

Besides, ZDS wagon'ed me in a recent game (Steriotype ;)) for claiming that I felt Cyan's response to being wagon'ed came across as townie. Cyan got lynched and next day ZDS lead the charge to string me up. So not only am I wary of saying I believe the wagon shouldn't be happening, but I'm doing it in defense of someone who recently victimized me in a similiar situation. Thank you, I wasn't stepping on that land mine.

As for keeping my head down, yes in a way that's true. I'm easily in the bottom 5 and likely in the bottom 3 of players for skill and experience in this game. Yes, I'm a bit gunshy at getting into an analytical debate over who did what with whom for how many M&M's. I'm likely to get out-argued and as a result likely to get strung up by scum for doing so. So yes, right now I'm making comments when I see the need to and defending myself when I need to.

As for being narrowly focused, Xyre and loran just happened to be the first two wagons, and I mentioned what I needed to. As a follow up to one of Axel's actual question I'll mention the other players that I wanted to watch.

At the time, I had three people on my list. Axel, Raf and Suth.

Axel because he was definately acting odd. Early on very few of his posts contained much in the way of analysis. Just a lot of snide comments. This is not the Axel I'm use to seeing. Recently, he's gone back to his usually ways of posting. At the time I wasn't sure if he was role-playing, either voluntarily or because of role pm, or had some sort of PR. With his change, I believe it was a voluntary role-play.

Raf and Suth both were posting very little. These two I tend to expect them to spit out one joke vote and then start tearing into someone for either a real slip or some manufactured slip. Before I made that post, I notice that neither were saying much. At the time I noticed such things, I had four posts, and they had 4 and 5, I don't remember who had which. But come on, roughly 3 days into the game and these two had the same number of posts as I did. That was odd. Raf has since returned to his normal ways, but Suth hasn't.

As for the more recent major events. I agree with AG in saying I believe that Arim's death was non-town related. For those speculating I had something to do with it, sorry, this weekend I was busy off'ing Mr. Boddy in the Courtyard with the Revolver (true story). Not Arim in the Matrix with the Black IC program. Although I will offer some speculation on it. Any chance of HE7's mysterious addition in this having anything to do with it?

And it's quite interesting to see Alx still wanting to see the mason killed off. I thought things with him were settled. Alx requesting such makes me suspicious.

Quote from Grakthis

Yeah, but my ability could have, theoretically, been used on our dead Agent too.... he was a townie and had no physical body.

There are flavor flaws in my ability being used on ANY computer program, but we already know we have computer programs in the town, so I don't think that argument holds water.

Very well- then I think I stand corrected (although do you have reason to believe your ability could have WORKED on our dead townie agent? A minute ago you did say it should only work on those with a physical body... I'm getting confused here about whether there's an inconsistency. And who's being inconsistent.)

Same goes to alx, and congratulations for unnecessarily (IMO) revealing you have an activated ability! (But since you've done so: just because you can target any player, do you have any reason to believe whatever your ability is would effect anyone but a bluepill?)

Also, enough with the ZDS vigging already, geez.


Vamp: is there a particular reason why you cast yourself in the role of a bank robber caught red-handed with his face on camera? Freudian slip? (And yes, I do award small +scum points in my notes for minutiae like this. I am a great believer in subconscious slips).

Other than that, I need to re-read your wall of text and the preceding PBPAs tomorrow to work out if I think there's anything there.

(It vaguely worries me that at the end of Vamp's wall of text, he both prods at Alx about the vig-the-mason stuff: good, and seems to fish at Hawkeye for the meaning of his code. Which, if he wanted to tell you, he'd tell you. It's not like he hid the code. Trying to bring out information too early: bad. The inconsistency annoys me. Every time I think I have a clear read, something messes it up).

Quote from RafaelK

Same goes to alx, and congratulations for unnecessarily (IMO) revealing you have an activated ability! (But since you've done so: just because you can target any player, do you have any reason to believe whatever your ability is would effect anyone but a bluepill?)

Congratulations accepted. As far as I can deduce, my ability will affect anyone.

Quote from RafaelK

Vamp: is there a particular reason why you cast yourself in the role of a bank robber caught red-handed with his face on camera? Freudian slip? (And yes, I do award small +scum points in my notes for minutiae like this. I am a great believer in subconscious slips).

Nope, no Freudian slip. It was an effort using the most blatant example to show no reason to argue something. Camera's don't lie. Nothing the robber could say would sway the cops. I didn't feel the need to answer Axel's restating of my posts, as I would have ended up agreeing with him, that yes that's what I did.

Sorry Raf, there is no reason for me to subconsciously slip. Such slips indicate duplicity, saying one thing and thinking another. I'm speaking my mind as I'm trying to show how crazy I think the expectation is for me to answer the blatantly obvious.

Quote from RafaelK

Other than that, I need to re-read your wall of text and the preceding PBPAs tomorrow to work out if I think there's anything there.

Great, so my answering in one big post is now being disparaged.

Quote from RafaelK

(It vaguely worries me that at the end of Vamp's wall of text, he both prods at Alx about the vig-the-mason stuff: good, and seems to fish at Hawkeye for the meaning of his code. Which, if he wanted to tell you, he'd tell you. It's not like he hid the code. Trying to bring out information too early: bad. The inconsistency annoys me. Every time I think I have a clear read, something messes it up).

It's also good to note in how you present this "by the way" afterthought as well as use the phrase "seems to fish." So do you think I Fish? Or do you think I don't. I'd hate to have other people show up and call you out for fencesitting. Plus I wasn't fishing for information. Just reminding everyone that HE7 posted something odd a few days earlier since there was speculation that the kill was a delayed kill.

I'm not very good at breaking codes. I tried for roughly 15 mins to connect it to Arim but couldn't come up with anything. I do not believe there was a connection, but I also feel it's worthwhile in bringing it up as I don't remember anyone else mentioning it. Regardless of relevancy, it doesn't hurt to mention things.

Quote from RafaelK

Very well- then I think I stand corrected (although do you have reason to believe your ability could have WORKED on our dead townie agent? A minute ago you did say it should only work on those with a physical body... I'm getting confused here about whether there's an inconsistency. And who's being inconsistent.)

I think I said this, but to make it clear, the FLAVOR explanation for what my ability does would only work on someone with a physical body.

The MECHANICS of my ability make absolutly no mention of physical bodies being a requirement.

And, as I said, I am confident that Azrael would not let FLAVOR trump MECHANICS.

If my ability required targeting someone who has a physical body, I expect the moderator would spell that out in the ability.

Therefore, I am assuming that the moderator has some flavor explanation that makes my ability still work on a digital person.

Unvote

I would rather see what investigation result that could be gleaned from atlseal first.

I just skimmed through very quickly, mind you. I'll try to have another post in by 48 hours. Apologies.

Quote from RafaelK

There's that defensiveness again. One would think you have a guilty conscience.

Whatever, think what you want.

As for the digital persons thing, the fact that we're in the matrix, in my opinion, puts everyone on even footing with regards to being "human".

1. I didn't mean to use you not posting as a point. Sorry about that.

2. On wagons:

Quote from Vamp »

I was on two. Xyre's and loran's. That's 2 out of 4 (counting ZDS and atlseal as the others), hardly "a lot".

I did say a lot of wagons early, and those were the first two wagons of the game. This point is probably less valid than I remember it being, though. When I first started being suspicious of you, you'd joined every wagon in what looked like an opportunistic way and left after they started dying down. You're right, saying a lot of wagons is not appropriate anymore. But you still joined those first couple in a very poor way and left by similar means.

3. On fence sitting:

Quote from Vamp »

But just because it's a scum tell doesn't make it fact that it's coming from a scum. As I said, I'm trying to do this less.

That doesn't make it less scummy, either.

4.

Quote from Vamp »

So if someone rob's a bank, is caught on surveillance and there's a clear picture of their face and then is subsequently caught and hauled in for questioning and the cops open up with "We have you clear as day on tape. You robbed the bank." What is there to say?

Unless you're confessing to being scum, this is not an appropriate analogy at all. You've been caught looking scummy. It's your responsibility to your teammates (either the rest of the town or your scum buddies) to make sure you show how you're not. And when you don't even acknowledge the attack on you, things look suspicious.

When it comes down to it, if multiple people think you look bad simply by summarizing what you've said, you've got a problem. Don't even take into account the fact that Axel and I both made comments about your actions beyond what they actually were. If your actions can speak for themselves, you need to do something about that.

5. On you not fence sitting regarding atlseal's claim:

Quote from Vamp »

As for atlseal's claim, the Cheshire Cat seems to be an odd add for the Matrix. I'm not too familiar with the story of Alice in Wonderland, so I'm not sure what the story says the Cat can do. Is it able to be a jack of all things in some way, similiar to what atlseal says his role is? Initial reaction without an answer to my question is to not believe atlseal. But it's not enough to convince me right now to move my vote at this time.

That's what you said about atlseal's claim. This is fence sitting: you said 'my initial reaction is not to believe him, but I'm not going to vote him'. And once the answer came along, you did and said nothing about it.

6. Regarding Xyre's wagon:

Quote from Vamp »

Once his wagon grew too quickly, I didn't want to be part of it as I wasn't entirely convinced of his guilt. So I unvoted when I could, when I caught up on the thread.

I could give this as a textbook example of what scum do when they've joined a townie's wagon. Admittedly townies do it too, but this seems to be the common theme with your actions.

7.

Quote from Vamp »

I didn't comment on ZDS because I thought Axel's reasons were very bogus. "Hey, he comments on how someone is posting two posts into the game. Dun, dun, daaa...there must me something afoot." Or it could be someone making an off hand comment just on observation. Now, please tell me, if I were to say that when things were occuring, exactly what difference would it make, beyond my opinion being known? Not a whole helluva lot.

The difference is that you don't look like you're lurking around not wanting to comment on the wagon. This game is won and lost based on what people say. If you don't say what you're thinking, well, at the very least you don't get people on your case for not commenting on something. It looks suspicious when you don't say anything about the most important issue of the game. More importantly, though, if you thought ZDS was town, you should have tried to make sure he didn't have to claim. I think that's pretty easy to understand.

Quote from Vamp »

Besides, ZDS wagon'ed me in a recent game (Steriotype ) for claiming that I felt Cyan's response to being wagon'ed came across as townie. Cyan got lynched and next day ZDS lead the charge to string me up. So not only am I wary of saying I believe the wagon shouldn't be happening, but I'm doing it in defense of someone who recently victimized me in a similiar situation. Thank you, I wasn't stepping on that land mine.

This probably completely destroys at least one of my points here at number 7, but I'm not sure what it is that you're saying. If you clarify this, I'll respond better to it.

8.

Quote from Vamp »

For those speculating I had something to do with it, sorry, this weekend I was busy off'ing Mr. Boddy in the Courtyard with the Revolver (true story).

First: metagaming = bad. Second: who was speculating you had something to do with it? Did I miss something?

9. Thanks for the response. See? If there's no questions, you can still point out why the points suck.

Sidenote...Fadeblue, i see you're here. Can you please demonstrate that you can vote?

Thanks.

EBWODP (This has to do with my earlier review of fade, and what came up. I posted it already)

Quote from Dagger

I would rather see what investigation result that could be gleaned from atlseal first.

Scums are almost 100% accurate when testing their ability to investigate.

Just saying.

Quote from LJustus

Scums are almost 100% accurate when testing their ability to investigate.

Unless they want it to be inaccurate, eh?

Quote from LJustus

Scums are almost 100% accurate when testing their ability to investigate.

Just saying.

I was writing something along those lines before my boss came in. Then you said it just as well.

loran: Yes, I can demonstrate. Vote Cyan

In any case, the atlseal lynch looks good, given that he has a pretty decent probability of being scum, there's enough reason to be doubtful of his claim, and we have plenty of reactions from other players. In addition, there's pretty much no way for him to fully prove his role, so he will always remain a question mark.

However, I am somewhat in favor of letting him live to produce an investigation result, and then lynching him tomorrow. If he's scum, he still gets lynched; if he's town, we at least get a result out of him. But that means we need to lynch someone else today, and we run the risk of getting sidetracked tomorrow. I just feel like there's an opportunity to squeeze a bit more out of this lynch.

So far, Cyan is a reasonable alternative lead, based on Grak's analysis. While some of Grak's points are simply referring to typical Cyan play, I also see that overall, Cyan's play so far is more similar to his usual scum play than his usual townie play.

Other people who may be good leads:
Sutherlands
LJustus
Xyre
Hvir
And the low-posters, Wizzpig and Athos.

I'm not sure yet about Vampyr; I need to reread Axel's case.

Quote from Alx2

Unless they want it to be inaccurate, eh?

Mafia: Hey, dude, Xyre's mafia.
*town lynches Xyre*
Town: He was townie.
Mafia: Oh, um... I guess I misread my PM?

Makes perfect sense.

Yeah, scum NEVER gambit with fake investigation. My bad.

*Hi Pod!*

Quote from Xyre

Mafia: Hey, dude, Xyre's mafia.
*town lynches Xyre*
Town: He was townie.
Mafia: Oh, um... I guess I misread my PM?

Makes perfect sense.

Except in this case, there's the issue that Atl is fairly certain to be lynched tomorrow if we let him live for the investigation. In which case he has no reason not to lie if he doesn't expect to live. That kind of puts a little hole in your comment.

@Fade. Interesting....I'm at work, which is why i can't continue my reviews on other people, but ill quote myself right now;
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2087260&postcount=539

Quote from loran"s 539 »

Final Thoughts: Fade’s interesting. Despite plenty of posts, including a good deal on Sutherlands’ scummy actions, he never votes Sutherlands, though he does threaten to vote arim at one point. Still he never gives a reason for that threat, and despite saying that he’s not calling Sutherlands the most scummy player in the game, he never details who he thinks that is, or even gives an FOS or vote. His lack of making votes or FOSes really piques my interest, and I think an FOS Fadeblue is on order. He’s stayed out of other’s attention due to his occasional disappearances.

This is why i asked you to vote, since you hadn't yet in the game and this is the conclusion i came up with (which gets less valid if you couldn't vote). This review was of all your posts up to 539, and i was wondering what your explanation for the things pointed out here.

Quote from loran16

This is why i asked you to vote, since you hadn't yet in the game and this is the conclusion i came up with (which gets less valid if you couldn't vote). This review was of all your posts up to 539, and i was wondering what your explanation for the things pointed out here.

There's nothing to explain. But if you really feel like pushing this, here:

1) I already said that I didn't feel Sutherlands worthy of a vote - I only said that he was scummier than ZDS, so if we were going to run with a theory that involved the two of them being scum together, I felt much better about lynching Suth over ZDS.

2) arim was being unusually aggressive, but I still didn't think he was the best lead. I threatened to vote him because I wanted to see how he would respond, and the result was inconclusive.

3) I have no current opinions on who is the scummiest right now. The day has been stretching in far too many directions, and until some players get whittled away, there's just too much to compute. I prefer smaller possibility sets so that it's easier to focus on relevant data. Which is why, if you'll notice from previous games, I tend to take the backseat on D1 in large games unless something big comes up, and so far, none of the cases have been particularly impressive. Though I will say I'm satisfied with the atlseal lead (but as I mentioned in my previous post, I feel we may be able to squeeze a bit extra out of it by waiting a day).

Quote from fadeblue

3) I have no current opinions on who is the scummiest right now. The day has been stretching in far too many directions, and until some players get whittled away, there's just too much to compute. I prefer smaller possibility sets so that it's easier to focus on relevant data. Which is why, if you'll notice from previous games, I tend to take the backseat on D1 in large games unless something big comes up, and so far, none of the cases have been particularly impressive. Though I will say I'm satisfied with the atlseal lead (but as I mentioned in my previous post, I feel we may be able to squeeze a bit extra out of it by waiting a day).

See, i don't mind the whole being a little more of an observer day 1 than in other days, but this day 1 has been 728 posts long, almost as long as the 3 day long mushroom kingdom. Yes, its easy to get confused as to who's the best target, but it's kind of weird that in 728 posts, you haven't voted until someone asked you to.

Moreover, the case against vamp is majorly to do with fence sitting. And there's not question in my mind that the case is valid in that respect. But you more or less can be said to have done the same thing, just in a much less blatant way. You've committed no votes, and very little opinions. Even your case on sutherlands ws made with you saying he's not the scummiest person, but we never got to hear whot hat person was?

These things just bothered me in my review of you.

Quote from loran16

See, i don't mind the whole being a little more of an observer day 1 than in other days, but this day 1 has been 728 posts long, almost as long as the 3 day long mushroom kingdom. Yes, its easy to get confused as to who's the best target, but it's kind of weird that in 728 posts, you haven't voted until someone asked you to.

Moreover, the case against vamp is majorly to do with fence sitting. And there's not question in my mind that the case is valid in that respect. But you more or less can be said to have done the same thing, just in a much less blatant way. You've committed no votes, and very little opinions. Even your case on sutherlands ws made with you saying he's not the scummiest person, but we never got to hear whot hat person was?

These things just bothered me in my review of you.

760 posts is a short day 1.

Man... you people are sissies. Less than 1K is a short day 1.

Quote from Grakthis

760 posts is a short day 1.

Man... you people are sissies. Less than 1K is a short day 1.

Says a man who has pulled off 500 posts in a mini

Quote from loran16

See, i don't mind the whole being a little more of an observer day 1 than in other days, but this day 1 has been 728 posts long, almost as long as the 3 day long mushroom kingdom. Yes, its easy to get confused as to who's the best target, but it's kind of weird that in 728 posts, you haven't voted until someone asked you to.

Moreover, the case against vamp is majorly to do with fence sitting. And there's not question in my mind that the case is valid in that respect. But you more or less can be said to have done the same thing, just in a much less blatant way. You've committed no votes, and very little opinions. Even your case on sutherlands ws made with you saying he's not the scummiest person, but we never got to hear whot hat person was?

These things just bothered me in my review of you.

What's wrong with not voting? Frankly, many of the wagons in this game have been rather baseless, and I can totally understand fadeblue being better than that.

fade said it (don't think I still don't have my eye on you though). We need to let atlseal live at least another day, folks. An investigation result is not something that should get tossed out the window. If he gets lynched after that and shows up town, we at least got some good information out of him. It's called maximizing your resources.

Frankly, I like the way he claimed, and his post is pretty much consistent with it all the way back at around #300. Possibly he jumped the gun a bit, putting in his smiley before it was clear someone was getting lynched, but ZDS was getting a lot of pressure, and it's not unreasonable that atlseal could have been worried that if he didn't do the smiley then, ZDS could have been lynched before he got another chance. So if he's faking something, looks like he was faking it back then, before he was put under any pressure.

The roughest part, frankly, is the nature of the restriction at all. It's weird. Normally, you just wait until the very last minute before someone gets lynched and drop one in, and you effectively have no disability at all. At least in the early game. The only way it bites you is if (1) you fire it off early and then no one gets lynched, and (2) then you come under pressure yourself, or (3) it's endgame time.

Vamp's posting a bit better. Might have to move off him to someone else soon. LJustus is moving up the ranks. Loran still right there, and Hvir.