The -2 part doesn't even make sense. You have to use it or be modkilled, and if you do use it you're at -2 to lynch? That seems woefully redundant. I could see if it was just the former, but just tacking on 'you're -2 to lynch once you use it' makes no sense whatsoever. Of course, you've claimed a role that people aren't going to want to kill.
I don't recall myself commenting on it not being believable because it's the not from the Matrix, but it's good of you to put words in my mouth that way. I'm not taking the Cheshire Cat part of the claim into consideration, because you can't really.
@atlseal: Does it say why your role was included? My role PM is fairly clear on this, and it seems to me that other non-matrix roles would be the same.
"Cyan — ZDS can't have such an obscure role, because I know there are even more obscure roles, ones that don't even belong to Matrix !
Atlseal — Like me, the Cheshire Cat, from Alice in Wonderland !
Cyan — That claim isn't satisfying at all."
Cyan is scum. Atlseal has a good claim*, so for the time being, let's look elsewhere. Unvote, Vote : Cyan.
*although fakeable
EWP : *removes question about flavor from post*
That's brilliant. Vote Cyan.
With a role like atl's, we can always wait for tomorrow to see what result he got from his role (especially if he uses his investigation).
atlseal used the HERE. This was after ZDS had been wagoned and had declared he would need to claim at -2.
That post was followed immediatley by THIS one, which is where atlseal says he has reason to believe that ZDS is telling the truth about his disability.
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Lewis Carroll wrote Alice in Wonderland people. Stop saying C.S. Lewis.
Sorry. Slip of the tongue.
I have to go away again now. I'm mulling over possible ways we could test that claim. Please don't lynch anyone before I get to come back and solve the game. :/
@Grak: The only use of a mason is the fact that they are confirmed roles in the endgame. A single mafioso being able to kill 1 or more town roles with no hinderance whatsoever more than supercedes this.
How confirmed someone is is 100% irrelevant when the entirety of a day will consist of the following: 5 alive, 3 to lynch. 1 is mafia, 2 are ZDS and his buddy, 2 are..whatever. Day starts. Mafia votes a mason, day goes to night. Mafia submits an NK. Day starts. Mafia votes a mason, day goes to night. Mafia submits an NK and wins the game.
Please tell me why any mafia would kill a role that works this way. Who cares if they're confirmed. They're a complete liability. That doesn't mean we should kill them now, but certainly they're going to have to be resolved(if you can cure them, so much the better) at some point before the end game. Arguing that the mafia will solve a town problem in this fashion is absurd.
First of all, way to not respond to the dozen other things I said about you.
Second of all, So with 5 alive, the mafia win with our 2 masons. Super.
So tell me, how does the game look with 6 alive and 2 of them are our two masons?
Masons are not just a threat in the end game. Masons are a threat the ENTIRE GAME. Especially if one or more of them is a good analyst. Does their value increase each day? Normally. So this ONE aspect of the mason role is gone... but the rest of the strengths are not.
Sigh. You know, I have never actually seen a real jack of all trades, although I see them claimed from time to time. They're pretty much always scum, trying to pass off some aspect of their roles by surrounding it in townie-like frills. For example, 'uber-cop' is basically the same thing as mafia cop, yes? Does this not worry anyone? I wouldn't complain, except that there is no using this ability to clear him; I don't believe for a second that any of the rest of those abilities can't be faked by the mafia. Heck, even rolecop can be faked without too much effort.
Not to mention the fact that if we do use the one ability he's least likely to be faking (though it wouldn't clear him), we'd be outing another role for no special reason. Can we just lynch him please?
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Sigh. You know, I have never actually seen a real jack of all trades, although I see them claimed from time to time. They're pretty much always scum, trying to pass off some aspect of their roles by surrounding it in townie-like frills. For example, 'uber-cop' is basically the same thing as mafia cop, yes? Does this not worry anyone? I wouldn't complain, except that there is no using this ability to clear him; I don't believe for a second that any of the rest of those abilities can't be faked by the mafia. Heck, even rolecop can be faked without too much effort.
Not to mention the fact that if we do use the one ability he's least likely to be faking (though it wouldn't clear him), we'd be outing another role for no special reason. Can we just lynch him please?
Jack isn't an uncommon role, although a fair amount of the time, the role is really just a megalomaniac (the abilities don't work). I think, in this case, faking an uber-cop would be really hard. However, if we were to, say, designate someone as the intended target tonight of an investigation, then we could determine if he's telling the truth. And if he's telling the truth, then I'd say he's town, because a mafia jack is insane.
Jack isn't an uncommon role, although a fair amount of the time, the role is really just a megalomaniac (the abilities don't work). I think, in this case, faking an uber-cop would be really hard. However, if we were to, say, designate someone as the intended target tonight of an investigation, then we could determine if he's telling the truth. And if he's telling the truth, then I'd say he's town, because a mafia jack is insane.
The problem with Jack is that it's fairly easy to imitate for a mafia member....roleblocking is not an uncommon mafia role, and mafia cops are seen from time to time (and they usually are just rolecops). Etc. etc.
Add that to the fact that atl was well scummy as hell earlier. I think im fine upgrading my FOS to a Vote Atlseal.
Re: Cyan's actions....Why does it seem that Cyan really wants us to lynch someone today? Major FOS Cyan.
Can't comment more, going to a barbeque.
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Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
It appears that our choice today is between atlseal and Cyan. vote atlseal. Maybe it's my mistrust of Grakthis; maybe it's my trust of Cyan, but I see Cyan as valuable to the town at this time. I believe that tomorrow is the time to decide about Cyan.
Was the Cheshire Cat one of the two non-Matrix characters you've mentionned ?
Because if not, then you just said that it's somehow significantly more likely to see several non-Matrix characters than to see a couple of obscure Matrix ones.
What exactly is your reasoning here ? (If you have one… )
No, Cheshire Cat is not one of the non-Matrix roles that I'm aware of. In fairness, there's no reason I would be, as I'm only aware of my role and a role that is directly related to mine.
Again, as I said already, I am not trying to doubt the validity of the rolename 'Cheshire Cat'. There is no reasonable way to do so, though as I said, it would be good to know the flavor of *why* his role is in the game(mine exists for a very specific reason, as does the other role that I'm aware of, and I'd say it stands to reason that any non-matrix roles that were added also have flavor explaining why they are there).
The problems I have with the claim are the JoAT role, which is extremely difficult to confirm, and the fact that, as I explained, the -2 to lynch aspect of his role makes no sense whatsoever.
@Loran: I find it strange that you're essentially calling me out for being suspicious of dubious claims. Especially while you're *upgrading* your vote on atlseal at the same time.
@Grakthis: I'll respond to the rest of your points after things with atlseal are resolved. As a quick response to one of them, I wouldn't say I've 'flip-flopped' on alot of my votes. I'm still suspicious of the same people now as I have been all game, the list has simply grown from a couple of people to 5 people.
Also, someone being a mason doesn't automatically make them some kind of liability to the mafia. It makes them a confirmed role, which means that the town can trust that they don't have a hidden agenda. But everything else is variable. Sure, if they're a good analyst, that helps the town. And if they're not, it's a hinderance to the town. There is no guarantee that their 'value increases each day'. It can, but there is no guarantee of it doing so. If anything, the fact that such a mason was forced to claim on Day 1 speaks against the likelihood of them being really useful later.
It's also worth noting that, if atlseal is telling the truth about his role, then he is also a huge endgame liability. It's awfully hard to believe that the town has a ton of these roles that can completely doom the town if one mafioso survives to the endgame. Now, if the 5 person endgame is zds/atlseal/mason/unknown character/mafia, all the mafia has to do is lynch either of the masons before atlseal has a chance to post. Atlseal gets modkilled and the mafia wins with their NK. It seems fairly unlikely that a mod of such esteem as Azrael would allow such a situation to happen.
How can I see it not as jumping on DYH when the question you asked seemed to swiftly follow on the heels of Rafk's questioning and it was a question on something that DYH had made clearer earlier?
As I said to DYH, I must have missed his blantant stating of such earlier. Plus I didn't realize asking questions were equal to jumping on someone's case. There was something I wanted to know. I asked a question. I got an answer that made sense to me and didn't follow it up. It's one thing to say I'm jumping on a person's case if I continue the line of questioning. But if every time someone asks a question of someone else and then get's accused of jumping on them, it's going to get tough to ask questions and not be labeled scum.
Re: Axel's PBPAs of H-guy and vampyr. Vampyr's always struck me as a fence sitter in every game im in with him, so its hard to really tell.
Yes, I have been. For some reason it's a bad habit I picked up and I need to start breaking myself of doing so. I believe it started after I crusaded against people and then turned up town. I started to doubt being analytical enough to notice the difference between scum and town and present a strong enough case at the right time to catch scum and leave townies alone. Doubting myself has lead to me being hesitant to commit to going after someone and easily disuaded when reasonable defense arguments are made.
Either way, I want to start with this game in changing that. I understood I've sucked at it so far, but I'm working on it.
It is, however, at least an acknowledgment, which is more than Vamp has given my PBPA. What's the matter, son? Afraid of putting your foot in your mouth?
Not at all. But if you look at your PBPA, you ask three questions. One you answer yourself. One which is pretty obviously rhetorical. And the last, I didn't deem necessary to answer.
What do you want from me? You state how you see my play so far, in your opinion. Am I supposed to magically go back and change my posts to change your mind about me? If all you do is state "He's scummy here and here and here..." What am I going to do? Say "Nope, nope and nope." That's rather pointless. If you want me to respond, ask me some questions. Don't just state things. There's not much sense in me agreeing that yup, everything you state is basically what I did. Did I do it for the reasons you state in the PBPA? No. But I can't argue against blatant evidence that your statements of what I did, was what I did.
BTW, I hope my digs at you didn't cut to deep. Though, if they did, it shouldn't bother you too much, right?
As for atlseal's claim, the Cheshire Cat seems to be an odd add for the Matrix. I'm not too familiar with the story of Alice in Wonderland, so I'm not sure what the story says the Cat can do. Is it able to be a jack of all things in some way, similiar to what atlseal says his role is? Initial reaction without an answer to my question is to not believe atlseal. But it's not enough to convince me right now to move my vote at this time.
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Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
I could see the Cheshire Cat maybe making sense. However, what really bothers me about atlseal's claim is that he's so lackluster about it, like he's unsure about it. And if he were telling the truth about being a Jack, he'd probably be much more intense in his claim, because Jack is one of the few roles that is really townie and needs to be protected. For a role that is the value equivalent of about 1.5 vanilla mafia (based on the evaluation system I use), he's really, really unsure of himself.
The Cheshire Cat, however, seems to me like a role that wouldn't be in the game. I mean, maybe Az thought it was a nice tie-in to the Alice in Wonderland theme of the Matrix, but then why not just do the rabbit itself? Because it's less noticeable than the Cheshire Cat? It doesn't add up to me.
I also am rather confident that at least one mafia member probably has a restriction similar to atlseal's and the masons', which makes me think that he is a credible scum. Unvote Cyan, Vote atlseal.
Cyan would make a good candidate for Day 2, however. IGMEOY Cyan.
I'm not saying anything about the role claim, which is indeed easy to fake (although "easy to fake" does not in any way equal "faked", like some seem to say), only about the name claim.
Why do you not doubt it's validity ?
Knowing for certain that non-matrix characters exist, it's hard for me to doubt the validity of other non-matrix claims. As I said, I would like him to expound on it and give us the flavor as to WHY his role is in the game, but I don't see how it would make sense for me to automatically doubt the validity of his role.
Also, LJustus last post makes me extremely uneasy. The last time he made such a post was in Verona Mafia, where he was scum and he said almost exactly the same thing(he even used me as the example to get on the wagon) while we were lynching someone from another scum group. It really feels like he is setting me up to take the fall, there.
I am not in favor of lynching him right now. All these quick votes are disturbing.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Could you guys stop trying to make me the scapegoat for this lynch? Seriously. First loran, then LJustus, now Xyre. I'm no longer as confident in lynching atlseal as I was. Unvote
Could you guys stop trying to make me the scapegoat for this lynch? Seriously. First loran, then LJustus, now Xyre. I'm no longer as confident in lynching atlseal as I was. Unvote
I'm not making anyone the scapegoat for anything. My statement was merely my summation of the situation we find ourselves in. You and atlseal seem to be the two players who have garnered the most suspicion at this point in the game. Of the two, I find that atlseal, given a claim that I don't believe, is the better of the two of you to lynch.
How does that make you the scapegoat?
unvote
Your reaction, however, has made me rethink my previous position. Maybe Grak is onto something.
I'm not making anyone the scapegoat for anything. My statement was merely my summation of the situation we find ourselves in. You and atlseal seem to be the two players who have garnered the most suspicion at this point in the game. Of the two, I find that atlseal, given a claim that I don't believe, is the better of the two of you to lynch.
How does that make you the scapegoat?
unvote
Your reaction, however, has made me rethink my previous position. Maybe Grak is onto something.
Fascinating that you didn't express any disbelief of his claim when you voted him. It was just your trust of me and your distrust of grakthis. Like I said, this is exactly the same sentiment you used in Verona Mafia. The parallel to the situations is remarkable. What is also remarkable is how much backpedalling you did with this post. Vote LJustus.
It's easy to make ambiguous statements and claim innocence when people perceive them in a way that you don't like. It seems like you're floundering here, to me.
I don't understand why you guys are panicking; he was at 6 before Cyan unvoted, out of an (assumed) 11 to lynch. The day's lasting long enough as it is without people suddenly freaking out. Axelrod's reaction bothers me in that regard. Cyan's, however, makes me confident that his opponents are correct.
Between Cyan and atlseal, I'd currently rather lynch atl. I'm just rehashing reasons here because there's not a lot new to say, but the biggest thing for me is the fact that his -2 to lynch thing being activated by an emoticon doesn't make any sense. A fakable role + a drawback that doesn't fit = bleh.
But I still find Vamp scummiest. I've stated my suspicions of him before. The fence sitting early game was a big dot on the scumdar that hasn't gone away or improved at all. Axel's PBPA put most of the points against him much better than I could, and his lackluster response leaves me wanting. I'll try to do as he asks and get him some questions later tonight.
Vote Vampyr, though that vote could change to atlseal.
I don't understand why you guys are panicking; he was at 6 before Cyan unvoted, out of an (assumed) 11 to lynch. The day's lasting long enough as it is without people suddenly freaking out. Axelrod's reaction bothers me in that regard. Cyan's, however, makes me confident that his opponents are correct.
I'm not panicking. The combined scum actions of yourself, Loran, and LJustus are enough to make me re-consider being on the same lynch that you're all on, especially considering the three of your actions towards me.
I didn't say that either. Thanks for trying to put words in my mouth.
You, um, kind of did.
atlseal's claim, IF true, kind of screws with what I thought was the basis for the -2 to lynch drawback. Given that I was either wrong or that this conclusion will help bring in a scum I'm comfortable saying it: I thought the -2 to lynch people were all "bluepills" like ZDS' claimed role. That made sense in light of a role that claimed to be able to remove their drawback (and an evil role looking for bluepills could easily be there to convert them, or to get a bonus kill on anyone it could positively ID as a bluepill, or whatever).
But atlseal claims to be a program!
I'll have to follow Grak's lead on this. If Grak says atlseal's claim is impossible based on his ability, I go with that. If he says it's not, then so be it.
unvote DYH in the meantime, since part of the basis for that just left the station.
Yay, another wagon dead because the town can't follow through. Exactly how long are we going to give atl a free pass, assuming he can 'prove' his ability?
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
You sigh. Everyone is taking so long, and nothing is getting done. The group is no closer to stopping the killers than they were eight hours ago. You start to wish that something, anything, would happen, just to break up the tedium.
You get your wish.
"Dodge this."
Gunshots rip through the quiet babble of voices. Everyone’s moving, diving, drawing weapons, hiding, all in the space of a split second. You’ve never seen an entire room move so quickly, all at once.
You watch the bullets inch by, seeming to take an eternity. You watch them enter his body, from behind. He doesn’t even flinch, just looks down, his fingers covered in digital blood. He raises them to his nose, as if satisfying a curiosity he’s always had. Then his body begins to shiver, to convulse, to leak light in spasmodic flashes. His mouth opens wide, like Munch’s scream, and he disintegrates in a burst of light.
Arimnaes, Agent Gray, Townie Detention Specialist, is dead.
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
For what it's worth, I've been keeping track of everyone's votes this game. Obviously this leaves out a lot (i.e. everything that's not votes), but it's still mildly interesting.
I'm not making anyone the scapegoat for anything. My statement was merely my summation of the situation we find ourselves in. You and atlseal seem to be the two players who have garnered the most suspicion at this point in the game. Of the two, I find that atlseal, given a claim that I don't believe, is the better of the two of you to lynch.
How does that make you the scapegoat?
unvote
Your reaction, however, has made me rethink my previous position. Maybe Grak is onto something.
What the heck? Cyan tells people to quit scapegoating him and you unvote atlseal? I think atlseal is a good candidate for lynch... I thought I might have a way to confirm it, but I would need a day-RB, not a night-RB. As it is, your [LJ] reaction to Cyan makes me think you're scum. Vote LJustus
Yeah. Now we've got no way of figuring out exactly which character did this. That's awfully careless of the mod.
DAMN YOU AZREAL HOW WILL WE WIN NOW
I do hope you're enjoying this.
The point is that each kill scene ought to have something defining about it to make suitable flavor. This kill scene, to me, is irrational. It doesn't have to be blatant, but it has to make sense, which this one flatly doesn't. But that's inconsequential.
The real question is, why arim? Perhaps the mafia or whomever wasn't interested in his "solution to the game" coming to light. Something to consider, for sure.
You sigh. Everyone is taking so long, and nothing is getting done. The group is no closer to stopping the killers than they were eight hours ago. You start to wish that something, anything, would happen, just to break up the tedium.
You get your wish.
"Dodge this."
Gunshots rip through the quiet babble of voices. Everyone’s moving, diving, drawing weapons, hiding, all in the space of a split second. You’ve never seen an entire room move so quickly, all at once.
You watch the bullets inch by, seeming to take an eternity. You watch them enter his body, from behind. He doesn’t even flinch, just looks down, his fingers covered in digital blood. He raises them to his nose, as if satisfying a curiosity he’s always had. Then his body begins to shiver, to convulse, to leak light in spasmodic flashes. His mouth opens wide, like Munch’s scream, and he disintegrates in a burst of light.
Arimnaes, Agent Gray, Townie Detention Specialist, is dead.
6 Not Voting- Fadeblue, Hvirfilvindr, Sutherlands, Ljustus, Carrion Pigeons, Rafaelk
23 alive, 13 to lynch.
“Holy!… GEEZ!…Hit the DIRT!”
“Oh my, oh, oh…..I saw Arimnaes get hit by bullets! Bullets everywhere…he, he just ….disintegrated. How can somebody just disintegrate like that?”
Pant,
Pant, pant
“ He was one of those Agent things. Like in the movies…..and he was from our town? How can that be?
Who would have just killed him like that? Why him? Why are you all just standing around? Well, Spoon isn’t. And Pod and Xyre…..but the rest of you.”
Yay, another wagon dead because the town can't follow through. Exactly how long are we going to give atl a free pass, assuming he can 'prove' his ability?
Anyway, Unvote, Unvote
Input later.
“Gosh, do you complaining about the Atlseal wagon falling apart?, or the cyan wagon falling apart?, or do you mean the one that you had conveniently left your single vote on up until now, Sutherlands?”
“So, just for conversations sake, which of the two Atlseal and Cyan interests you most?”
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RELAPSED MAFIA JUNKIE
W – 33, L – 19, Broke Games - 9
Calvin & Hobbs Mafia, Mafia MVP
X-Men Mafia Town MVP
Simpson's Mafia - best use of character
Mtgnews Mafia Mafia - Town Madman
Mythos Mafia: the Dunwich Massacre Town MVP
English Literature Mafia Town MVP
Best Role-Playing Sin City Mafia
Werewolf Mafia - Mafia MVP
Doctor Mafia - Mafia MVP
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Lost Mafia - Co SK Winner with Kops
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22: Random vote, random roleplaying. It's interesting to note he makes a reference to "lenses", which might have indicated that he might have possibly maybe been an agent. This also melds with his use of the word "Mister". For anyone who's wondering why I'm pointing this out, well, anything's useful at this point.
(as a side note, despite Az's warning, there really hasn't been much roleplaying, has there? With the exception of HAWKEYE, I can't think of anyone who's used it consistently.)
102: Carries on a roleplayed discussion with Hawkeye, mentions my plight, and votes for ZDS. There are more subtle notes that make his agency more apparent.
Also, just because it's there, HAWKEYE's quoted part here suggests to me that he's not a Matrix character, which might add credence to atlseal's claim. It's something to ask Cyan about sometime, considering he's the guy who knows things.
212: Interesting attack on Vampyr's post. I'm interested in the possibility that maybe Vampyr's related to this, in part considering how he voted for him twice. Arim's voting patterns make it seem to me that the kill that he was the victim of was delayed a la BMM and Sin City. I don't know, something to ponder. If he was killed by delay, this would be the most logical place for that to happen (almost a week previous - I used a rough week-long delay in the kill in Blood Moon). Just saying.
Also, I just noticed this: arim's the only person who's been posting in the "Mr. ~" posting style. It doesn't make sense to me that a minor agent would have the posting restriction but a more major agent like, well, Smith, wouldn't. Perhaps Smith isn't in the game?
288: Turns his attention onto ZDS after Axelrod pointed out that there was no way ZDS could have known what he seemed to know. Not really important now that ZDS has claimed.
618: Says he'll mull over ways to test the claim. 37 posts later, he dies.
What bothers me about this is how few people have blatant reason for killing him, especially now. Unless someone was really afraid of what he might say when he came back (atlseal?), there's nothing in his last five posts that would immediately register "kill him" in my head. So, instead, I return to the idea that it was a delayed kill. In that case, the post that stands out most to me is 212. It's a reasonable amount of time away from his death (five days), and the post is the most accusatory of all of his. However, why would Vampyr have him killed? Nothing significant came of his post. Unless Vampyr was really worried about being fingered, I kind of doubt that it was him.
Which leaves me with 2 possibilities:
1) atlseal was afraid enough of what he might say to have him killed before he could post again: maybe, but that's my paranoid side talking more than anything else. For now, though, I'd still like him dead for other reasons.
2) Someone else figured it would be save to take out a strong townie: maybe, but arim hadn't said much to suggest that he was either a powerful role or a formidable player. Sure, he's an excellent player, but that alone doesn't seem to me a great justification for a kill. Besides, I think there are better candidates for death based solely on qualification.
Other than those, the only person whom I could see possibly having reason to kill him would be Alx2, but that strikes me as ridiculous. Right now, I'm thinking 1 is the best bet.
1) atlseal was afraid enough of what he might say to have him killed before he could post again: maybe, but that's my paranoid side talking more than anything else. For now, though, I'd still like him dead for other reasons.
2) Someone else figured it would be save to take out a strong townie: maybe, but arim hadn't said much to suggest that he was either a powerful role or a formidable player. Sure, he's an excellent player, but that alone doesn't seem to me a great justification for a kill. Besides, I think there are better candidates for death based solely on qualification.
Other than those, the only person whom I could see possibly having reason to kill him would be Alx2, but that strikes me as ridiculous. Right now, I'm thinking 1 is the best bet.
"All righty them. These are two possibilities. There are others I'm sure. One that comes to mind."
"3) Someone else thought they might muddy the water and possibly incriminate Atlseal by nailing arimnaes."
"Now who would benefit most from a move like that?"
"I can vote, err.. think of one in particular, thought it seems like a rather desperate act."
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W – 33, L – 19, Broke Games - 9
Calvin & Hobbs Mafia, Mafia MVP
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Simpson's Mafia - best use of character
Mtgnews Mafia Mafia - Town Madman
Mythos Mafia: the Dunwich Massacre Town MVP
English Literature Mafia Town MVP
Best Role-Playing Sin City Mafia
Werewolf Mafia - Mafia MVP
Doctor Mafia - Mafia MVP
Mafia: Escape from the Cylons - Town MVP
Lost Mafia - Co SK Winner with Kops
Random Mafia 3 - Town MVP
"All righty them. These are two possibilities. There are others I'm sure. One that comes to mind."
"3) Someone else thought they might muddy the water and possibly incriminate Atlseal by nailing arimnaes."
"Now who would benefit most from a move like that?"
"I can vote, err.. think of one in particular, thought it seems like a rather desperate act."
Maybe, but even then, I can think of better targets, both to incriminate atlseal and to muddy the waters. The choice seems irrational. Even if it isn't a one-shot thing (like the SK from Sin City was), it doesn't seem like a productive target overall for a scum.
Maybe, but even then, I can think of better targets, both to incriminate atlseal and to muddy the waters. The choice seems irrational. Even if it isn't a one-shot thing (like the SK from Sin City was), it doesn't seem like a productive target overall for a scum.
"Then it is best to look at this in a broader view and ask oursleves, How does the loss of arimnaes inpact the game?" "Then ask who would be the beneficiary of such an act?"
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
RELAPSED MAFIA JUNKIE
W – 33, L – 19, Broke Games - 9
Calvin & Hobbs Mafia, Mafia MVP
X-Men Mafia Town MVP
Simpson's Mafia - best use of character
Mtgnews Mafia Mafia - Town Madman
Mythos Mafia: the Dunwich Massacre Town MVP
English Literature Mafia Town MVP
Best Role-Playing Sin City Mafia
Werewolf Mafia - Mafia MVP
Doctor Mafia - Mafia MVP
Mafia: Escape from the Cylons - Town MVP
Lost Mafia - Co SK Winner with Kops
Random Mafia 3 - Town MVP
Colour me doubtful that an SK would be that blatant D1 unless he was under serious threat. (I assume it's an SK)
True, no one is under serious threat right now, not really serious anyway considering the prevailing style of play here.
I am pretty sure it was a third party who benefits from trying to make someone else look just a little more suspicous they they already did. Which is what I was suggesting earlier.
I could see the Cheshire Cat maybe making sense. However, what really bothers me about atlseal's claim is that he's so lackluster about it, like he's unsure about it. And if he were telling the truth about being a Jack, he'd probably be much more intense in his claim, because Jack is one of the few roles that is really townie and needs to be protected. For a role that is the value equivalent of about 1.5 vanilla mafia (based on the evaluation system I use), he's really, really unsure of himself.
The Cheshire Cat, however, seems to me like a role that wouldn't be in the game. I mean, maybe Az thought it was a nice tie-in to the Alice in Wonderland theme of the Matrix, but then why not just do the rabbit itself? Because it's less noticeable than the Cheshire Cat? It doesn't add up to me.
I also am rather confident that at least one mafia member probably has a restriction similar to atlseal's and the masons', which makes me think that he is a credible scum. Unvote Cyan, Vote atlseal.
Cyan would make a good candidate for Day 2, however. IGMEOY Cyan.
I disagree. The Cheshire Cat, imo, is a perfect example of a literary character that examplifies exactly what the Matrix is, illiusion. It is there. It fades from reality. Is it real or a figment of your imagination? A subconscious projection that is the voice of your inner mind or a real cat that smiles, talks in riddles and parables and when he has had his say he fades from reality behind a dazzling smile? And there is the Lewis Carrol link element already built into the film. How perfect a choice.
As you can tell, I've had A LOT of time, a lifetime really, to look at my reality and question if it is real. Still not sure, but I am sure that the calim makes Me Smile.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
RELAPSED MAFIA JUNKIE
W – 33, L – 19, Broke Games - 9
Calvin & Hobbs Mafia, Mafia MVP
X-Men Mafia Town MVP
Simpson's Mafia - best use of character
Mtgnews Mafia Mafia - Town Madman
Mythos Mafia: the Dunwich Massacre Town MVP
English Literature Mafia Town MVP
Best Role-Playing Sin City Mafia
Werewolf Mafia - Mafia MVP
Doctor Mafia - Mafia MVP
Mafia: Escape from the Cylons - Town MVP
Lost Mafia - Co SK Winner with Kops
Random Mafia 3 - Town MVP
The reaction that jumps out is Xyre wanting to use this as a basis for doubting whether Smith is in the game. What's the point of that Xyre, unless you have an interest in people thinking Smith isn't in the game? Xyre also seems particularly interested in telling us there's nothing in the kill scene to suggest any particular character did it. I am aware that I'm probably analysing Xyre more than other people due to previous suspicions, but he does keep catching my attention. For the record, my current suspicions list is headed by Xyre, Cyan and atlseal. No I don't think they're all scum together, there's a certain amount of either/or at work.
Still want to know what grak thinks of atlseal's claim. Don't want to miss that due to the distraction.
The reaction that jumps out is Xyre wanting to use this as a basis for doubting whether Smith is in the game. What's the point of that Xyre, unless you have an interest in people thinking Smith isn't in the game? Xyre also seems particularly interested in telling us there's nothing in the kill scene to suggest any particular character did it. I am aware that I'm probably analysing Xyre more than other people due to previous suspicions, but he does keep catching my attention. For the record, my current suspicions list is headed by Xyre, Cyan and atlseal. No I don't think they're all scum together, there's a certain amount of either/or at work.
Still want to know what grak thinks of atlseal's claim. Don't want to miss that due to the distraction.
More later, I'm off to the football.
If you're trying to argue that I am Smith, then just stop there. It was an observation on my part that bothered me. Nothing more, nothing less.
Quote from ZeDorkSlipeur »
Why atlseal and not someone else ?
Because arimnaes was planning on talking about him? Nothing else popped out at me at the time.
@Grakthis: I'll respond to the rest of your points after things with atlseal are resolved. As a quick response to one of them, I wouldn't say I've 'flip-flopped' on alot of my votes. I'm still suspicious of the same people now as I have been all game, the list has simply grown from a couple of people to 5 people.
REally? So care to explain the comment about how "some post, by someone, somewhere" made you change your mind about ZDS.... followed by you attacking ZDS's role repeatedly over the next dozen pages?
Or maybe you'd like to explain the fact that you have CP on your list but have yet to vote for him?
I especially think it's fitting that now that I've called you out on flip-flopping around with your vote, you've decided to try and prove me wrong by keeping it on ATL no matter what.
Quote from Cyan »
Also, someone being a mason doesn't automatically make them some kind of liability to the mafia. It makes them a confirmed role, which means that the town can trust that they don't have a hidden agenda. But everything else is variable. Sure, if they're a good analyst, that helps the town. And if they're not, it's a hinderance to the town. There is no guarantee that their 'value increases each day'. It can, but there is no guarantee of it doing so. If anything, the fact that such a mason was forced to claim on Day 1 speaks against the likelihood of them being really useful later.
I love the first few lines of this post.
"Being a mason doesn't automatically make them a liability to the mafia. It makes them a liability to the mafia, which is a liability to the mafia."
You can rephrase it all you want, but the result is the same. Masons are a major liability to the mafia.
And the smaller the number of townies alive, the larger the % of the players that are masons, and the harder it is for us to mislynch.
It's simple statistics.
Quote from Cyan »
It's also worth noting that, if atlseal is telling the truth about his role, then he is also a huge endgame liability. It's awfully hard to believe that the town has a ton of these roles that can completely doom the town if one mafioso survives to the endgame. Now, if the 5 person endgame is zds/atlseal/mason/unknown character/mafia, all the mafia has to do is lynch either of the masons before atlseal has a chance to post. Atlseal gets modkilled and the mafia wins with their NK. It seems fairly unlikely that a mod of such esteem as Azrael would allow such a situation to happen.
Not if he provided us townie roles that help balance this.
Also, what if he provides a long twlight, such that ATL has plenty of time to get in here and post?
In my experience, scum don't make up roles as complicated as the one ATL has claimed. It's too easy for them to get caught as liars if they do. The simplest lies are the best lies.
Also, I will say one thing in favor of your argument: based on a discussion I had with Azrael, he does not tend to favor roles that are based on spamming the page to post something quickly before anyone else does. That doesn't mean he WOULDN'T have such a role, but it means he's not overly fond of them.
Still want to know what grak thinks of atlseal's claim. Don't want to miss that due to the distraction.
There are a lot of things going on that I want to respond to, but I need to keep this quick....
My role, by it's flavor, interacts with people who have physical bodies....
that being said, I don't think the moderator would let himself have flavor trump mechanics. Especially since we now have a dead townie who was nothing but a program.
Also, I am confused by the choice of Armineas for the day kill. Our claimed Jack would have been the logical choice... unless, of course, the person performing the daykill doesn't fear a cop for some reason OR he has a reason to fear agents.
Daykilling SK who hates agents? OMGWTF NEO IS AN SK? <___<
I wouldn't be surprised if we see more daykills. Maybe even one per day. Azreal did get the chance to play a dayvig once in a game on MT... so it wouldn't surprise me if he has a particular taste for the role.
I don't really believe this all. Vote Stands.
I'm a Legacy Program hiding out in the matrix that can activate subroutines.
@atlseal: Does it say why your role was included? My role PM is fairly clear on this, and it seems to me that other non-matrix roles would be the same.
That's brilliant. Vote Cyan.
With a role like atl's, we can always wait for tomorrow to see what result he got from his role (especially if he uses his investigation).
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
That post was followed immediatley by THIS one, which is where atlseal says he has reason to believe that ZDS is telling the truth about his disability.
I have to go away again now. I'm mulling over possible ways we could test that claim. Please don't lynch anyone before I get to come back and solve the game. :/
First of all, way to not respond to the dozen other things I said about you.
Second of all, So with 5 alive, the mafia win with our 2 masons. Super.
So tell me, how does the game look with 6 alive and 2 of them are our two masons?
Masons are not just a threat in the end game. Masons are a threat the ENTIRE GAME. Especially if one or more of them is a good analyst. Does their value increase each day? Normally. So this ONE aspect of the mason role is gone... but the rest of the strengths are not.
Not to mention the fact that if we do use the one ability he's least likely to be faking (though it wouldn't clear him), we'd be outing another role for no special reason. Can we just lynch him please?
Mafia MVP BM Mafia
Mafia MVP Matrix Mafia
Jack isn't an uncommon role, although a fair amount of the time, the role is really just a megalomaniac (the abilities don't work). I think, in this case, faking an uber-cop would be really hard. However, if we were to, say, designate someone as the intended target tonight of an investigation, then we could determine if he's telling the truth. And if he's telling the truth, then I'd say he's town, because a mafia jack is insane.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Yes, but it would make me feel better about him being town, at least for now.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
The problem with Jack is that it's fairly easy to imitate for a mafia member....roleblocking is not an uncommon mafia role, and mafia cops are seen from time to time (and they usually are just rolecops). Etc. etc.
Add that to the fact that atl was well scummy as hell earlier. I think im fine upgrading my FOS to a Vote Atlseal.
Re: Cyan's actions....Why does it seem that Cyan really wants us to lynch someone today? Major FOS Cyan.
Can't comment more, going to a barbeque.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
It appears that our choice today is between atlseal and Cyan. vote atlseal. Maybe it's my mistrust of Grakthis; maybe it's my trust of Cyan, but I see Cyan as valuable to the town at this time. I believe that tomorrow is the time to decide about Cyan.
No, Cheshire Cat is not one of the non-Matrix roles that I'm aware of. In fairness, there's no reason I would be, as I'm only aware of my role and a role that is directly related to mine.
Again, as I said already, I am not trying to doubt the validity of the rolename 'Cheshire Cat'. There is no reasonable way to do so, though as I said, it would be good to know the flavor of *why* his role is in the game(mine exists for a very specific reason, as does the other role that I'm aware of, and I'd say it stands to reason that any non-matrix roles that were added also have flavor explaining why they are there).
The problems I have with the claim are the JoAT role, which is extremely difficult to confirm, and the fact that, as I explained, the -2 to lynch aspect of his role makes no sense whatsoever.
@Loran: I find it strange that you're essentially calling me out for being suspicious of dubious claims. Especially while you're *upgrading* your vote on atlseal at the same time.
@Grakthis: I'll respond to the rest of your points after things with atlseal are resolved. As a quick response to one of them, I wouldn't say I've 'flip-flopped' on alot of my votes. I'm still suspicious of the same people now as I have been all game, the list has simply grown from a couple of people to 5 people.
Also, someone being a mason doesn't automatically make them some kind of liability to the mafia. It makes them a confirmed role, which means that the town can trust that they don't have a hidden agenda. But everything else is variable. Sure, if they're a good analyst, that helps the town. And if they're not, it's a hinderance to the town. There is no guarantee that their 'value increases each day'. It can, but there is no guarantee of it doing so. If anything, the fact that such a mason was forced to claim on Day 1 speaks against the likelihood of them being really useful later.
It's also worth noting that, if atlseal is telling the truth about his role, then he is also a huge endgame liability. It's awfully hard to believe that the town has a ton of these roles that can completely doom the town if one mafioso survives to the endgame. Now, if the 5 person endgame is zds/atlseal/mason/unknown character/mafia, all the mafia has to do is lynch either of the masons before atlseal has a chance to post. Atlseal gets modkilled and the mafia wins with their NK. It seems fairly unlikely that a mod of such esteem as Azrael would allow such a situation to happen.
As I said to DYH, I must have missed his blantant stating of such earlier. Plus I didn't realize asking questions were equal to jumping on someone's case. There was something I wanted to know. I asked a question. I got an answer that made sense to me and didn't follow it up. It's one thing to say I'm jumping on a person's case if I continue the line of questioning. But if every time someone asks a question of someone else and then get's accused of jumping on them, it's going to get tough to ask questions and not be labeled scum.
Yes, I have been. For some reason it's a bad habit I picked up and I need to start breaking myself of doing so. I believe it started after I crusaded against people and then turned up town. I started to doubt being analytical enough to notice the difference between scum and town and present a strong enough case at the right time to catch scum and leave townies alone. Doubting myself has lead to me being hesitant to commit to going after someone and easily disuaded when reasonable defense arguments are made.
Either way, I want to start with this game in changing that. I understood I've sucked at it so far, but I'm working on it.
Not at all. But if you look at your PBPA, you ask three questions. One you answer yourself. One which is pretty obviously rhetorical. And the last, I didn't deem necessary to answer.
What do you want from me? You state how you see my play so far, in your opinion. Am I supposed to magically go back and change my posts to change your mind about me? If all you do is state "He's scummy here and here and here..." What am I going to do? Say "Nope, nope and nope." That's rather pointless. If you want me to respond, ask me some questions. Don't just state things. There's not much sense in me agreeing that yup, everything you state is basically what I did. Did I do it for the reasons you state in the PBPA? No. But I can't argue against blatant evidence that your statements of what I did, was what I did.
BTW, I hope my digs at you didn't cut to deep. Though, if they did, it shouldn't bother you too much, right?
As for atlseal's claim, the Cheshire Cat seems to be an odd add for the Matrix. I'm not too familiar with the story of Alice in Wonderland, so I'm not sure what the story says the Cat can do. Is it able to be a jack of all things in some way, similiar to what atlseal says his role is? Initial reaction without an answer to my question is to not believe atlseal. But it's not enough to convince me right now to move my vote at this time.
PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
Matrix Mafia Town MVP
Medieval Mafia Mafia MVP
Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
I could see the Cheshire Cat maybe making sense. However, what really bothers me about atlseal's claim is that he's so lackluster about it, like he's unsure about it. And if he were telling the truth about being a Jack, he'd probably be much more intense in his claim, because Jack is one of the few roles that is really townie and needs to be protected. For a role that is the value equivalent of about 1.5 vanilla mafia (based on the evaluation system I use), he's really, really unsure of himself.
The Cheshire Cat, however, seems to me like a role that wouldn't be in the game. I mean, maybe Az thought it was a nice tie-in to the Alice in Wonderland theme of the Matrix, but then why not just do the rabbit itself? Because it's less noticeable than the Cheshire Cat? It doesn't add up to me.
I also am rather confident that at least one mafia member probably has a restriction similar to atlseal's and the masons', which makes me think that he is a credible scum. Unvote Cyan, Vote atlseal.
Cyan would make a good candidate for Day 2, however. IGMEOY Cyan.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Knowing for certain that non-matrix characters exist, it's hard for me to doubt the validity of other non-matrix claims. As I said, I would like him to expound on it and give us the flavor as to WHY his role is in the game, but I don't see how it would make sense for me to automatically doubt the validity of his role.
Also, LJustus last post makes me extremely uneasy. The last time he made such a post was in Verona Mafia, where he was scum and he said almost exactly the same thing(he even used me as the example to get on the wagon) while we were lynching someone from another scum group. It really feels like he is setting me up to take the fall, there.
1 Alx2-Arimnaes
5 Atlseal-Dagger, DYH, Loran16, LJustus, Xyre
4 Cyan-Grakthis, Vampyr, Hawkeye7, ZDS
1 DYH-Rafaelk
1 Loran16- Athos
1 Spoon-Wizzpig
2 Sutherlands- Carrion Pigeons, Atlseal
2 Vampyr-Axelrod, Alx2
1 xyre- Pod
1 Looking for Dwight’s Corpse-Abbeygargoyle
5 Not Voting- Fadeblue, Hvirfilvindr, Sutherlands, Spoon, Cyan
13 to lynch.
I'm not making anyone the scapegoat for anything. My statement was merely my summation of the situation we find ourselves in. You and atlseal seem to be the two players who have garnered the most suspicion at this point in the game. Of the two, I find that atlseal, given a claim that I don't believe, is the better of the two of you to lynch.
How does that make you the scapegoat?
unvote
Your reaction, however, has made me rethink my previous position. Maybe Grak is onto something.
Fascinating that you didn't express any disbelief of his claim when you voted him. It was just your trust of me and your distrust of grakthis. Like I said, this is exactly the same sentiment you used in Verona Mafia. The parallel to the situations is remarkable. What is also remarkable is how much backpedalling you did with this post. Vote LJustus.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
But I still find Vamp scummiest. I've stated my suspicions of him before. The fence sitting early game was a big dot on the scumdar that hasn't gone away or improved at all. Axel's PBPA put most of the points against him much better than I could, and his lackluster response leaves me wanting. I'll try to do as he asks and get him some questions later tonight.
Vote Vampyr, though that vote could change to atlseal.
I'm not panicking. The combined scum actions of yourself, Loran, and LJustus are enough to make me re-consider being on the same lynch that you're all on, especially considering the three of your actions towards me.
Yourself = me.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
You, um, kind of did.
atlseal's claim, IF true, kind of screws with what I thought was the basis for the -2 to lynch drawback. Given that I was either wrong or that this conclusion will help bring in a scum I'm comfortable saying it: I thought the -2 to lynch people were all "bluepills" like ZDS' claimed role. That made sense in light of a role that claimed to be able to remove their drawback (and an evil role looking for bluepills could easily be there to convert them, or to get a bonus kill on anyone it could positively ID as a bluepill, or whatever).
But atlseal claims to be a program!
I'll have to follow Grak's lead on this. If Grak says atlseal's claim is impossible based on his ability, I go with that. If he says it's not, then so be it.
unvote DYH in the meantime, since part of the basis for that just left the station.
Anyway, Unvote, Unvote
Input later.
Mafia MVP BM Mafia
Mafia MVP Matrix Mafia
You get your wish.
"Dodge this."
Gunshots rip through the quiet babble of voices. Everyone’s moving, diving, drawing weapons, hiding, all in the space of a split second. You’ve never seen an entire room move so quickly, all at once.
You watch the bullets inch by, seeming to take an eternity. You watch them enter his body, from behind. He doesn’t even flinch, just looks down, his fingers covered in digital blood. He raises them to his nose, as if satisfying a curiosity he’s always had. Then his body begins to shiver, to convulse, to leak light in spasmodic flashes. His mouth opens wide, like Munch’s scream, and he disintegrates in a burst of light.
Arimnaes, Agent Gray, Townie Detention Specialist, is dead.
---
5 Atlseal-Dagger, DYH, Loran16, Xyre, Abbeygargoyle
4 Cyan-Grakthis, Vampyr, Hawkeye7, ZDS
1 LJustus-Cyan
1 Loran16- Athos
1 Spoon-Wizzpig
1 Sutherlands- Atlseal
3 Vampyr-Axelrod, Alx2, Spoon
1 xyre- Pod
6 Not Voting- Fadeblue, Hvirfilvindr, Sutherlands, Ljustus, Carrion Pigeons, Rafaelk
23 alive, 13 to lynch.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Arim votes:
Post# Player
22 Axelrod
102 ZDS
212 Vamp
288 ZDS
330 Vamp
350 Alx2
Arim voted by:
Post# Player
118 LJ
120 CP x 3
214 Spoon
What the heck? Cyan tells people to quit scapegoating him and you unvote atlseal? I think atlseal is a good candidate for lynch... I thought I might have a way to confirm it, but I would need a day-RB, not a night-RB. As it is, your [LJ] reaction to Cyan makes me think you're scum. Vote LJustus
4 Atlseal-Dagger, DYH, Loran16, Xyre
4 Cyan-Grakthis, Vampyr, Hawkeye7, ZDS
2 LJustus-Cyan, Sutherlands
1 Loran16- Athos
1 Spoon-Wizzpig
1 Sutherlands- Atlseal
3 Vampyr-Axelrod, Alx2, Spoon
1 xyre- Pod
Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
America == Velociraptor
Play IRC mafia. (/join #mafia)
I do hope you're enjoying this.
The point is that each kill scene ought to have something defining about it to make suitable flavor. This kill scene, to me, is irrational. It doesn't have to be blatant, but it has to make sense, which this one flatly doesn't. But that's inconsequential.
The real question is, why arim? Perhaps the mafia or whomever wasn't interested in his "solution to the game" coming to light. Something to consider, for sure.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
“Holy!… GEEZ!…Hit the DIRT!”
“Oh my, oh, oh…..I saw Arimnaes get hit by bullets! Bullets everywhere…he, he just ….disintegrated. How can somebody just disintegrate like that?”
Pant,
Pant, pant
“ He was one of those Agent things. Like in the movies…..and he was from our town? How can that be?
Who would have just killed him like that? Why him? Why are you all just standing around? Well, Spoon isn’t. And Pod and Xyre…..but the rest of you.”
“Gosh, do you complaining about the Atlseal wagon falling apart?, or the cyan wagon falling apart?, or do you mean the one that you had conveniently left your single vote on up until now, Sutherlands?”
“So, just for conversations sake, which of the two Atlseal and Cyan interests you most?”
Calvin & Hobbs Mafia, Mafia MVP
X-Men Mafia Town MVP
Simpson's Mafia - best use of character
Mtgnews Mafia Mafia - Town Madman
Mythos Mafia: the Dunwich Massacre Town MVP
English Literature Mafia Town MVP
Best Role-Playing Sin City Mafia
Werewolf Mafia - Mafia MVP
Doctor Mafia - Mafia MVP
Mafia: Escape from the Cylons - Town MVP
Lost Mafia - Co SK Winner with Kops
Random Mafia 3 - Town MVP
22: Random vote, random roleplaying. It's interesting to note he makes a reference to "lenses", which might have indicated that he might have possibly maybe been an agent. This also melds with his use of the word "Mister". For anyone who's wondering why I'm pointing this out, well, anything's useful at this point.
(as a side note, despite Az's warning, there really hasn't been much roleplaying, has there? With the exception of HAWKEYE, I can't think of anyone who's used it consistently.)
30: Responds to Grak's note on his roleplaying.
102: Carries on a roleplayed discussion with Hawkeye, mentions my plight, and votes for ZDS. There are more subtle notes that make his agency more apparent.
Also, just because it's there, HAWKEYE's quoted part here suggests to me that he's not a Matrix character, which might add credence to atlseal's claim. It's something to ask Cyan about sometime, considering he's the guy who knows things.
126: More of the Xyre-protecting.
212: Interesting attack on Vampyr's post. I'm interested in the possibility that maybe Vampyr's related to this, in part considering how he voted for him twice. Arim's voting patterns make it seem to me that the kill that he was the victim of was delayed a la BMM and Sin City. I don't know, something to ponder. If he was killed by delay, this would be the most logical place for that to happen (almost a week previous - I used a rough week-long delay in the kill in Blood Moon). Just saying.
Also, I just noticed this: arim's the only person who's been posting in the "Mr. ~" posting style. It doesn't make sense to me that a minor agent would have the posting restriction but a more major agent like, well, Smith, wouldn't. Perhaps Smith isn't in the game?
288: Turns his attention onto ZDS after Axelrod pointed out that there was no way ZDS could have known what he seemed to know. Not really important now that ZDS has claimed.
330: Returns his attention to Vampyr.
340: Asks ZDS a question on his masonry.
342: Confirms the answer.
350: Votes for Alx.
352: Argues that the fact that Alx went to the effort to accuse Cyan doesn't prove his townieness.
356: Goads fadeblue (I think) for attacking Suth but not voting for him.
363: Points out how Alx didn't actually vote for Cyan when he accused him of being scum.
396: Clarifies his argument that accusations without action are suspicious.
604: Asks a question about atlseal's claim.
618: Says he'll mull over ways to test the claim. 37 posts later, he dies.
What bothers me about this is how few people have blatant reason for killing him, especially now. Unless someone was really afraid of what he might say when he came back (atlseal?), there's nothing in his last five posts that would immediately register "kill him" in my head. So, instead, I return to the idea that it was a delayed kill. In that case, the post that stands out most to me is 212. It's a reasonable amount of time away from his death (five days), and the post is the most accusatory of all of his. However, why would Vampyr have him killed? Nothing significant came of his post. Unless Vampyr was really worried about being fingered, I kind of doubt that it was him.
Which leaves me with 2 possibilities:
1) atlseal was afraid enough of what he might say to have him killed before he could post again: maybe, but that's my paranoid side talking more than anything else. For now, though, I'd still like him dead for other reasons.
2) Someone else figured it would be save to take out a strong townie: maybe, but arim hadn't said much to suggest that he was either a powerful role or a formidable player. Sure, he's an excellent player, but that alone doesn't seem to me a great justification for a kill. Besides, I think there are better candidates for death based solely on qualification.
Other than those, the only person whom I could see possibly having reason to kill him would be Alx2, but that strikes me as ridiculous. Right now, I'm thinking 1 is the best bet.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
"All righty them. These are two possibilities. There are others I'm sure. One that comes to mind."
"3) Someone else thought they might muddy the water and possibly incriminate Atlseal by nailing arimnaes."
"Now who would benefit most from a move like that?"
"I can vote, err.. think of one in particular, thought it seems like a rather desperate act."
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Maybe, but even then, I can think of better targets, both to incriminate atlseal and to muddy the waters. The choice seems irrational. Even if it isn't a one-shot thing (like the SK from Sin City was), it doesn't seem like a productive target overall for a scum.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
"Then it is best to look at this in a broader view and ask oursleves, How does the loss of arimnaes inpact the game?" "Then ask who would be the beneficiary of such an act?"
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Simpson's Mafia - best use of character
Mtgnews Mafia Mafia - Town Madman
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Werewolf Mafia - Mafia MVP
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Lost Mafia - Co SK Winner with Kops
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True, no one is under serious threat right now, not really serious anyway considering the prevailing style of play here.
I am pretty sure it was a third party who benefits from trying to make someone else look just a little more suspicous they they already did. Which is what I was suggesting earlier.
I disagree. The Cheshire Cat, imo, is a perfect example of a literary character that examplifies exactly what the Matrix is, illiusion. It is there. It fades from reality. Is it real or a figment of your imagination? A subconscious projection that is the voice of your inner mind or a real cat that smiles, talks in riddles and parables and when he has had his say he fades from reality behind a dazzling smile? And there is the Lewis Carrol link element already built into the film. How perfect a choice.
As you can tell, I've had A LOT of time, a lifetime really, to look at my reality and question if it is real. Still not sure, but I am sure that the calim makes Me Smile.
Calvin & Hobbs Mafia, Mafia MVP
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Simpson's Mafia - best use of character
Mtgnews Mafia Mafia - Town Madman
Mythos Mafia: the Dunwich Massacre Town MVP
English Literature Mafia Town MVP
Best Role-Playing Sin City Mafia
Werewolf Mafia - Mafia MVP
Doctor Mafia - Mafia MVP
Mafia: Escape from the Cylons - Town MVP
Lost Mafia - Co SK Winner with Kops
Random Mafia 3 - Town MVP
Still want to know what grak thinks of atlseal's claim. Don't want to miss that due to the distraction.
More later, I'm off to the football.
If you're trying to argue that I am Smith, then just stop there. It was an observation on my part that bothered me. Nothing more, nothing less.
Because arimnaes was planning on talking about him? Nothing else popped out at me at the time.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
REally? So care to explain the comment about how "some post, by someone, somewhere" made you change your mind about ZDS.... followed by you attacking ZDS's role repeatedly over the next dozen pages?
Or maybe you'd like to explain the fact that you have CP on your list but have yet to vote for him?
I especially think it's fitting that now that I've called you out on flip-flopping around with your vote, you've decided to try and prove me wrong by keeping it on ATL no matter what.
I love the first few lines of this post.
"Being a mason doesn't automatically make them a liability to the mafia. It makes them a liability to the mafia, which is a liability to the mafia."
You can rephrase it all you want, but the result is the same. Masons are a major liability to the mafia.
And the smaller the number of townies alive, the larger the % of the players that are masons, and the harder it is for us to mislynch.
It's simple statistics.
Not if he provided us townie roles that help balance this.
Also, what if he provides a long twlight, such that ATL has plenty of time to get in here and post?
In my experience, scum don't make up roles as complicated as the one ATL has claimed. It's too easy for them to get caught as liars if they do. The simplest lies are the best lies.
Also, I will say one thing in favor of your argument: based on a discussion I had with Azrael, he does not tend to favor roles that are based on spamming the page to post something quickly before anyone else does. That doesn't mean he WOULDN'T have such a role, but it means he's not overly fond of them.
There are a lot of things going on that I want to respond to, but I need to keep this quick....
My role, by it's flavor, interacts with people who have physical bodies....
that being said, I don't think the moderator would let himself have flavor trump mechanics. Especially since we now have a dead townie who was nothing but a program.
Also, I am confused by the choice of Armineas for the day kill. Our claimed Jack would have been the logical choice... unless, of course, the person performing the daykill doesn't fear a cop for some reason OR he has a reason to fear agents.
Daykilling SK who hates agents? OMGWTF NEO IS AN SK? <___<
I wouldn't be surprised if we see more daykills. Maybe even one per day. Azreal did get the chance to play a dayvig once in a game on MT... so it wouldn't surprise me if he has a particular taste for the role.
If Sin City is any indication, we ought to expect many more daykills. There were 2 separate roles that could kill during the day.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia