I am also very bored with this dispute between Raf and DYH. Talking about Storms in Teacups....
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
You say you're open to vig'ing ZDS down the line and outing the other mason. Do you feel the need to out the other mason now? Or leave that until it's decided ZDS is to die by vig?
@Vamp: Loran may really be on to something about you and reading - I've already made that very clear. I'll regurgitate for you and RafK here in a minute.
Now, for the last time I'm going to address this situation:
Hey, Raf, way to take that quote completely out of context. That reply you have there is a result of Kenji opening his big mouth about all the geomancers possibly dying as a result of one being killed.
Quote from RafK »
As you've quoted yourself, you were in favour of your mason partners coming out once it was necessary to prove something (in Elegant it was, as you faced a cop accusation; in DotA you were under a little pressure and wanted to dispel Sutherlands and Cyan's cult accusation, albeit I don't think you were under that much pressure personally).
Nitpick: it was Day One- you didn't have cop results, you had flavor from your PM.
Sue me, I wanted to confirm myself - and frankly, I don't see the problem with that. I wouldn't be upset with the current masons if the other had come out to confirm ZDS. In fact, that would've been better than him announcing the -2 lynch restriction, in hindsight.
Quote from RafK »
However, when it's not a benefit to the town to reveal a mason, you don't want the mason revealed. Naturally.
This doesn't make any sense. What exactly are you implying? You know what, I don't care- I'm sick of this whole argument. QFT on Axelrod above.
Quote from RafK »
Let's lock you into the position a little more. Do you think the town should vig ZDS? If yes, why should his mason be revealed now?
And again- I only think we should reveal ZDS' mason if we're going to vig him. Do I think we should vig him? Down the line, probably, unless he can be "fixed". If he's going to be fixed, Grak wants to ensure he's town. You do the math. Either way, I think it merits discussion, hence the reason it was being talked about.
@RafK: Honestly, haven't enough people passed on your attack at me to give it up yet? You don't have a following because you're off-base and frankly, just wrong. It's got nothing to do with your attitude, which I like that you tried to play up before - "build a bridge and get over it, yadda yadda".
If Grakthis' ability is real, then it would indeed be a better alternative than vigging the mason. Regardless, since ZDS is hardly in any danger of being lynched, we could just revisit this possibility again during the mid-game instead of debating on how to go about doing it right now.
Also, just as a confirmation, is Grakthis' ability one-shot? If so, there is even less of a reason to use it right now. Since atl claimed the same restriction as ZDS, it is conceivable that there are more players out there with such a drawback.
For the record, I am currently seeing DYH as town and Vampyr's post #548 reeks to me as trying to quickly jump on DYH following on the heels of Rafk's attack.
I'm inclined to agree with DYH that it would have been significantly preferable to have the other mason come forward than it is for the mafia to know that they can lynch ZDS single-handedly by just letting him survive to the late game. The ability really isn't as elegant as Pod puts forth(I believe it was Pod). The mafia is almost guaranteed not to kill ZDS, just because he'll be easily quick-lynchable later in the game. ZDS made a huge, pointless error in telling us about this ability, if indeed it is real(I'm still having a hard time believing it, hopefully atlseal's wagon will provide us some verification of this)...he had already claimed mason, he wasn't going to accrue anymore votes. But making a big mistake doesn't make you scum, and quite clearly we're not going after a mason today. I'll try to bring up somea of my major gripes with atlseal, even though I find PBPAs fairly useless, and am mostly bad at them anyway.
He has tried to make the argument about whether "outing the mason" depends on vigging ZDS first. The actual point here, as I said in my post 484, is that there is no reason to out the mason. I had him cold on that, with the stuff from Elegant and DotA (although he tried to get out with ad homs and selective quoting) so he tried to make the argument all about the conditions on outing the mason. But the conditions don't matter- we should not be outing the mason point blank, and if he was town he would have said the same thing.
.
.
.
Look, I know DYH is a master of acting reasonable when he's caught out, and I know that my style tends to turn people off without even reading what I say. Build a bridge and get over it- DYH has been caught red-handed using scum tactics and is trying to weasel out by changing the focus. Realising this is your first step towards analysing play instead of analysing attitude.
1) Vigging the mason is reasonable play. Do the math.
2) Making an appeal to people based on how they don't like your playstyle is kind of counterproductive when you're that condenscending. Is this you realizing that you have to be less 'nice' as scum so people can't read you?
3) You're wrong. DYH's original stance has been both consistent and well-defended. Personally, I think you're blinded by the fact that you always get into an argument with DYH, and you can't conceive of not doing it here. It has nothing to do with attitude, except maybe yours.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
I actually want to take RafK's side here. Sort of. Vigging is the play by the numbers, but outing the other mason for sure can wait.
Having said that, I am somewhat suspicious of how long this back-and-forth about the other mason have been going. Maybe they want to indirectly out the other mason by observing people's reactions?
PBPA of atlseal Post 3: Joke votes Spoon Post 62: Says that he wants to see what the votecount shows so he will continue voting for spoon. Agrees with ZDS and RafeK on Rafe's question of Xyre Post 82: Agrees with Xyre about "being too defensive" as a scumtell. Post 85: Response to DYH pointing out the flaws in post 82's argument. Says he was jsut trying to educate Wizpig anyways. Requests votecount Post 87: Comments on "something interesting" for the votecount Post 109:votes CP because "This smells much like you distorting what he[Xyre] was actually saying" Post 117: Response to fade as to why people are suspicious of ZDS Post 121: Confused response to CP multivoting Post 190: Responds to Pod saying that he seems scummy by saying "I'm trying out new playstyles." Says that CP is looking for any reason to vote someone. Comments on the Xyre wagon that "For how early it grew, I'd say it grew really quickly." Says that he will go over those on the wagon "for less than stellar reasons" later. Post 220: Asks CP to respond to his accusations Post 252: Response to my question about Dwight's corpse Post 286:Votes ZDS for Axel's catch. Response to loran's question of why Axel finds ZDS suspicious. Post 302: Response to fade: mentioning a situation is commenting on it Post 303: Cautions that ZDS could be -2 from a lynch. Post 314: Unvotes ZDS "due to mason claim" Post 322: Sees no reason to doubt a mason claim. Pseudo-response (not really addressing the point) to DYH calling his instant acceptance of ZDS' claim dubious. POst 324: Says that he is not StormBlind Post 328:Votes Spoon for "a lot of referring to yourself as part of the town collective there" Post 337: Explains that he sees scum do what he voted Spoon for a lot in other games. Admits that he is looking for another wagon becuase one won't roll on ZDS today. Post 374: Response to me Post 440:Votes Sutherlands for flawed logic regarding lynching ZDS day 1 Post 464: Response to ZDS saying he is trying too hard to look townie is "isn't that a townie's job". Response to Cyan's disbelief of -2 lynches you. Post 478: Response to my assertation that he has been bandwagonning. Claims that his only real bandwagon vote was ZDS. Post 488: Responds to DYH's post 344 no because he claims that he missed it. Explains rationale for vote in 322 in more detail. Says that he doesn't worry about "a one-man crusade" agianst him but will answer the post anyways, fabricates a reason why he could miss points. Says that he isn't a bandwagon voter but could be classified as opportunistic with his voting. Post 496: Wants to know Cyan's reasons for voting him Post 503: Asks DYH why he hasn't proxied his vote to someone who will vote for atlseal Post 510: Comments on people voting him (he is at 4 when he posts) that he will take 2 less votes to lynch Post 512: Clarifies that he isn't ZDS' partner Post 547: Rationalizes Cyan's behavior as mimicking chamber's style. Asks if Cyan has made a case against him.
Overall impression:
He seems to be an extremely opportunistic voter thus far, sticking to the "fling *#^% against the wall and see what sticks" theory of voting. Some of his rationale seems tortured to say the least (Post 322), and some it just seems like he is voting someone early because they screwed up and he wants to look like he got on the bandwagon early (ZDS in post 286 and Sutherlands in post 440). He even admits that he is opportunistic in post 488, which feels a lot like he is trying to negate a larger charge by admitting to a smaller one.
Looking beyond his voting pattern, he never commented on what he actually thought of Xyre's behavior or the argument against him, just the wagon. The only definitive thing that he had said about Xyre to that point was the he agreed that seeming "too defensive" was not a scumtell.
Breifly glacing at my summaries of his posting, one could say that it seems like he is trying quite hard to be the helpful townie as a good amount of his posts are responses to general questions people asked in the thread.
He contradicts himself in a couple of places: in post 488 he claims that he doesn't worry about one man crusades, and then proceeds to answer all of DYH's questions. He also seems to be bothered by Cyan's vote on him (see post 496), even though Cyan was the only one voting for him at that time (by Suth's count). He does seem to fulfill his own criteria of being overly defensive !=scummy which was articulated in post 82. Clearing wriggle space for himself?
A point of interest is that he seems to intuitively guess that ZDS could have the -2 to lynch thing in post 303, which (i think) is the first mention of such a restriction.
Another thing that bears mentioning is that within 50 posts of being bothered by Cyan's vote on him, he is rationalizing Cyan's behavior, despite Cyan never mentioning any reasons of why he was voting him in the first place.
With 11 to lynch him (if he is telling the truth), I feel quite comfortable with an unvote, vote: atlseal which makes it 6.
Looking beyond his voting pattern, he never commented on what he actually thought of Xyre's behavior or the argument against him, just the wagon. The only definitive thing that he had said about Xyre to that point was the he agreed that seeming "too defensive" was not a scumtell.
I would have thought it was obvious that I didn't find Xyre's behavior that strange if I thought the wagon was full of it at the time.
Breifly glacing at my summaries of his posting, one could say that it seems like he is trying quite hard to be the helpful townie as a good amount of his posts are responses to general questions people asked in the thread.
I answer a lot of the questions because I'm on a lot of the time.
He contradicts himself in a couple of places: in post 488 he claims that he doesn't worry about one man crusades, and then proceeds to answer all of DYH's questions. He also seems to be bothered by Cyan's vote on him (see post 496), even though Cyan was the only one voting for him at that time (by Suth's count). He does seem to fulfill his own criteria of being overly defensive !=scummy which was articulated in post 82. Clearing wriggle space for himself?
Heh, you're right... I try not to let one-man crusades get to me, but they always seem to. I will mention that one of the main reasons I'm bothered by Cyan's vote is that, to my knowledge, he is yet to explain any bit of it (very much like chamber was against me in Magic Mafia).
A point of interest is that he seems to intuitively guess that ZDS could have the -2 to lynch thing in post 303, which (i think) is the first mention of such a restriction.
No, ZDS was the first one to mention it and I said that I have the same restriction in post 303 which is why I was not doubting the claim in the slightest.
Another thing that bears mentioning is that within 50 posts of being bothered by Cyan's vote on him, he is rationalizing Cyan's behavior, despite Cyan never mentioning any reasons of why he was voting him in the first place.
Just because I think I've figured out why Cyan's doing what he's doing doesn't make it any less valid.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
My question to atlseal for the moment would be: when ZDS claimed that he had a -2 to lynch disability, what did you think about it (considering you also have one)? I don't think you expressed an opinion beyond saying you had reason to believe he could be telling the truth.
I'm not talking about whether or not you believed he really had such a disability, but what your thoughts on his alignment were at that point. You must have thought something.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
My question to atlseal for the moment would be: when ZDS claimed that he had a -2 to lynch disability, what did you think about it (considering you also have one)? I don't think you expressed an opinion beyond saying you had reason to believe he could be telling the truth.
I'm not talking about whether or not you believed he really had such a disability, but what your thoughts on his alignment were at that point. You must have thought something.
If I think I understand the question you're asking:
When he claimed that as part of his role, it immediately granted credability to what he was saying. So, after he claimed that, I truly believed he was town and that he really is a mason.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
If I think I understand the question you're asking:
When he claimed that as part of his role, it immediately granted credability to what he was saying. So, after he claimed that, I truly believed he was town and that he really is a mason.
You didn't unvote him....
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
If I think I understand the question you're asking:
When he claimed that as part of his role, it immediately granted credability to what he was saying. So, after he claimed that, I truly believed he was town and that he really is a mason.
This is backwards too. He claimed the disability before he claimed to be a Mason.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
My mistake. I tried to remember why I did what I did instead of actually going back and checking (in my mind he had claimed mason and -2 to lynch in the same post).
The reason I didn't unvote was because the -2 lended him credability, but with a claim there could come counter claims, etc.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
Normally, I am for keeping as much information from the mafia as possible. The fact that there's even a discussion as to the possibility of revealing the second of a mason pair kinda boggles my mind. After all, it's really up to the mason pair if they want that information to become public knowledge. I think they will probably talk about it when the game goes to Night. Seriously, it's their decision. I think they can make the decision based on the information that's available.
@Vamp: Loran may really be on to something about you and reading - I've already made that very clear. I'll regurgitate for you and RafK here in a minute.
Just because you say that you made it very clear doesn't mean that it's always understood. I don't remember reading such from you. I must have forgotten. Regardless, when I typed the question up, I didn't have the answer. There's no reason to be snide about it. A few moments to point the answer out doesn't take much. In fact, in the time it took you to make the comment you did, you could have answered the question and been done with me.
For the record, I am currently seeing DYH as town and Vampyr's post #548 reeks to me as trying to quickly jump on DYH following on the heels of Rafk's attack.
How was I jumping on DYH? I asked him a question. I didn't accuse him of anything. To me this reeks of you making more out of things than what's really there.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Soul Collector count: 184
PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
Matrix Mafia Town MVP
Medieval Mafia Mafia MVP
Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
Ok, ladies, it's time for the Grakmeister to enlighten you on how I know Cyan is scum.
Let's start at the beginning, where all good stories start. Except ones that start en media res.... like, Saving Private Ryan. God that's a great movie. Anywho.
I had advanced knowledge of Grakthis' demeanor and antics, and have sufficiently steeled myself against such. Hopefully everyone can do the same so that he's not just a huge distraction(though I daresay it's almost too late for that).
Cyan's first post, he's been talking to someone about my posting style. Tell me Cyan why would you be researching how I play mafia? Is it possibly because you wanted to know what kind of opponent I would be? Or wheather or not you should be afraid of me?
And why did you feel the need to start immediatly by attacking my credibility?
Neither of those, Loran, I just talk to someone that has a large animosity towards him, enough so that I read some tings games that Grak was in to see for myself.
Well, if he's read "some" tings games, then he also knows my reputation goes beyond just my attitude, and is support by my results.
So again, I ask, why the attack on the credibility when you know my record?
For those of you who aren't familiar, scum panic when I am alive in the town. They absolutly flop all over themselves. I make them nervous in all kinds of tingly places. I've been night or day killed in the first 2 days in almost every single game I've been town. In every completed game where I wasn't, either the town won, or I was scum.
What we see from Cyan is exactly how scum who know my reputation react to me.
I find CP's defense of ZDS here to be unsettling. It is fairly abnormal to avidly defend someone else early in the game. Particularly, CP seems to do so more as scum than town(defending Azrael in Cartoon Mafia, for example).
I agree w/ Alx that ZDS actions are questionable thus far.
Call's the actions of CP questionable, without actually posting his own opinions about ZDS, or even linking or quoting the posts by CP he doesn't like.
I'm not sure how I feel about the bandwagon on Xyre. On the one hand, it seems like the attacks on him are based upon absolutely nothing.
On the other hand, for the wagon being so flimsy, he is really, really reacting badly to it, which doesn't make much sense.
Mostly, his actions and reactions thus far remind me of how I acted at the beginning of Trek Mafia. Vote Xyre based upon that.
This absolutly makes me giggle with delight. He might as well have held up a sign proclaiming his guilt.
First, he says he's not sure how he feels about the bandwagon on Xyre, then he votes Xyre. So obviously, he was lying when he said he wasn't sure... that, or else he changed his mind in the time it took him to type the next thought.
This is a classic tell, because it gives him a TON of room to backtrack meanwhile he's distancing himself from the bandwagon itself nicely by saying he doesn't agree with the original attack on Xyre anyways.
CP is abnormally aggressive today, even moreso than I normally am. I'm not sure if that means something, but it seems worth making a note of.
Again, talking about CP without quoting or pointing out any actual comments by CP.
And at first he was calling out CP for defending someone, now he's calling out CP for attacking someone. These two behaviors seem to be pretty consistent in my mind. CP is showing confidence and willingness to post opinions. These are positive things.
Does it scare you when townies do positive things, Cyan?
These posts by Loran come across to me as him trying to take advantage of 'mafia stereotypes' than actually trying to catch scum. Unvote, Vote Loran
So we get a one liner, again not actually pointing out what posts of Loran's he's talking about, but unlike the two comments towards CP, he actually VOTES for Loran.
Why vote for Loran but not CP? Both cases are weakly spelled out, and weakly argued... but one of them he votes and the other he doesn't?
Worth remembering if one of the three dies.
[url=http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2080143&postcount=230]Finally! A long post from Cyan![/quote]. So this one gets linked instead of quoted.
The major part I don't like is him harping on CP being 'agressive' again but then backing off because of the 3 votes thing.
He also votes Xyre for really weak reasoning.
[URL="http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2080492&postcount=252"]mostly un-noteworthy[/URL] discussion about roleplaying and a comment Loran made.
I'm still having a hard time believing that 4 people are voting for CP. Of course, the fact that 2 of them are Xyre and Loran, easily the most suspicious people in this game so far, makes CP look pretty good. Ironically, the fact that they're voting for CP, IMO, only makes Loran and Xyre look that much worse. I'm having a hard time deciding which of them to keep my vote on, mostly because I think they're both very lynchworthy right now.
Here we go... more of him backpeddling away from his attack on CP. Man... if I hadn't been reading CP as solidly town, I'd think these two were scum together.
Actually, if Cyan shows up scum, I will be seriously considering that a basis for a CP lynch... because Cyan is strongly signaling like he started the game distancing himself from CP (attacking for weakreasons, and not voting) and then as soon as he's given an excuse, he becomes CP's best friend in the whole world and starts attacking anyone who is questioning CP.
This definetely seems like Axelrod catching onto something to me. I'll go with the Unvote, Vote ZDS crowd.
Man, could he jump on that bandwagon ANY quicker? That bandwagon was so iffy to start with... but that didn't even make Cyan blink before he lept on the back and said GITTYUP!
I find this claim thoroughly unlikely. It's hard to believe that two such minor characters would even be in the game, and the whole 'it takes 2 less votes to lynch me' doesn't really make alot of sense. What is the flavor there? I'm also not impressed with how ZDS didn't originally state his role, no matter how obvious it might have seemed, but immediately 'confirmed' Loran's guess of it.
Lastly, the way that atlseal just ate it up also seems dubious.
Hay guyz, let's not unvote the claimed mason who has just said how easy it would be to mislynch him!
Also, let's lean heavily on flavor. What do you think?
Though, I will say this much... if ZDS turns out to be scum, I'll mark Cyan green.
[URL="http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2082450&postcount=362"]Unapologetic backtracking...[/URL] have a spine, scum. If you're gonna take a questionable position on a claimed mason, stick with it. Don't run away from it a post later when you're called on it. That just tips your hat.
I mean, could he flip-flop ANY faster? My favorite part is his reason for the flip-flop....
Quote from Cyan »
I'm very slightly learning towards not, because of some posts by someone else that make him look better in my mind.
lol. Because of some posts by someone else! HOW DETAILED AND SPECIFIC! TOTALLY TOWNIE!
[URL="http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2082477&postcount=369"]I think this one[/URL] might be my favorite post in the game so far.
Here's a great quote from it.
Quote from Cyan »
Folks just seem to want to blow off the concerns of others, without really discussing them or giving them proper merit. Attitudes like that aren't beneficial to the town at all.
This is the guy who has addressed MAYBE half of the issues going on in the game, has failed to respond to me poking at him and calling him scummy, and started the game by attacking my reputation and, arguably, character.
But guys, can't we all just get along?
[URL="http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2082502&postcount=376"]Then in his next post...[/URL] when DYH wants to know who he's talking about, Cyan is like "oh... not YOU of course." So who WERE you talking about, Cyan? Or are you afraid to be specific for the one BILLIONTH time this game?
Cyan, Ready to backtrack at a MOMENTS NOTICE! BACK-BACK-AND-AWAY!
This logic might be valid if I didn't know, with absolute certainty, that there are at least two non-Matrix characters that Az tied into the story for this game. This is a big part of why I doubt ZDS claim. There is no reason to use such ridiculously obscure characters as the ones ZDS mentioned when you're already bringing in characters from outside of the original genre.
Then he drops this one on us.
How does he know there are at least two non-matrix characters in this game?
Then, he continues doubting ZDS, even though the last time he was called on that, he backtracked at lightning speed.
[URL="http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2082838&postcount=403"]But he wants to make sure we know[/URL] it's not cause he's a mason. Cause he's not. He's in that other group that knows other players roles and talks at night.
[URL="http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2082915&postcount=405"]Still harping on ZDS's claimed role[/URL]... even though, once again, the last time someone called him on wanting to lynch a mason he got defensive and denied it. And besides, something, someone, somewhere said made him decide ZDS was town. Or something.
[URL="http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2082924&postcount=406"]Wow![/URL] a link! He actually refered to something specific another player said in one of his posts! Awesome!
Why are Tank & Dozer dead when this story starts? Keeping in mind that that was just an example, I don't see anything in the Storyline from the first post that would indicate this.
I doubt that all of the characters that die in the movies are not in this story, considering that would be..most of the characters. And Azrael clearly isn't following exactly to the core storyline, considering that he made up his own storyline to go with this game. You stating that Tank and Dozer are dead really confuses me.
So, not only is he not paying attention to the game... he also didn't pay attention to the setup.
I'm really having a hard time with the whole 'it takes 2 less votes to lynch you' bit.
However, I doubt that someone of ZDS' experience would make such a knee-jerk reaction as trying to use something like that to discourage people from voting for him. I think we can let it go for the moment, and look at other suspects, like alx and atlseal.
Right. What I meant was, I don't think someone of his experience would make up something like that.
And here he goes AGAIN!
"I do not like ZDS role name, his claimed ability or anything about how he played, but I am not going to commit to attacking him, because then I would look scummy."
After reading atlseal's last post, I'm very glad that I am voting him.
I love posts like this. Whatever you do, Cyan, don't let us know what part of his 5 or 6 part response you didn't like. Just say "atlseal's last post."
[URL="http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2085991&postcount=499"]Insignificant[/URL] comment about interpreting my post. Meh.
[URL="http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2087103&postcount=531"]Yet again...[/URL] I am feeling like a broken record with this. He keeps telling us how ZDS's claimed role is so scummy, and how there are probably scum with that ability, and yet somehow ZDS is not scum.
I am backtracking from my previous position about ZDS and Cyan not being scum together. Now, thanks to the way Cyan keeps attacking ZDS without ACTUALLY attacking him, it's reading increasingly like scum who are trying to look townie by continualy poking at a teammate they expect to die anyways.
If ZDS later shows up scum, that's another blackmark on Cyan at this point.
[URL="http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2087151&postcount=536"]More "let's just get along" stuff.[/URL] I don't really see a problem with the posting... seems like a good discussion to me.
@RafK: In my opinion, nothing is amiss with DYH right now.
I can't say I understand the value of this post. Has Cyan played a lot of games with DYH, such that he would have a valuable opinion about DYH?
[URL="http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2087919&postcount=556"]This post is full of goodies...[/URL] Like, he's almost setting up ZDS to survive till the end game without anyone questioning it. Because, OBVIOUSLY the mafia will not kill him.
I would say he's completely wrong... the mafia CANNOT leave two masons alive. Even if those two masons have the drawback of "cannot vote, if these two are the last 2 players alive, the town loses" or something ridiculous like that, the mafia STILL cannot leave them alive. Masons massively swing the endgame towards the town.
He does offer to summarize his points against ATL though... so let's see if he actually does it....
Summary For The Lazy and... well... non-masochists
So far in this game, Cyan has posted weak attacks on multiple players, rarely supported any of his attacks with an actual case, he almost never references specific posts or comments by other players and instead likes to refer to things vaguely.
He's avoiding taking solid positions on anything, and everytime someone tries to pin down his position, he puts it in reverse and guns it.
He flip-flops as often as possible, and when he does it, he says it's because of "something someone posted somewhere."
His arguments are things like "I do not like that post" without an explanation of WHAT he didn't like.
He attacks players without backing it up with a vote (Especailly, ZDS post claim and CP pre-claim) and loves to tell other people how they should be nicer, and should logically address issues, while failing to logically address anyone elses points in this game.
I am not sure we can find a better day 1 lynch in the entire history of mafia (hyperbole? You decide) than we have sitting right here in front of us.
Ok, I didn't really have the time at work to go over the PBPA so I just skipped to the anaylsis at the end and responded to those points. After reading through the PBPA and actually going back to read my posts compared with your anaylsis, it became evident to me that you had made up your mind before you even started.
I took the time to go back and check some of the things I had said compared with what else was happening. So, I have some more to add against your PBPA analysis:
He contradicts himself in a couple of places: in post 488 he claims that he doesn't worry about one man crusades, and then proceeds to answer all of DYH's questions. He also seems to be bothered by Cyan's vote on him (see post 496), even though Cyan was the only one voting for him at that time (by Suth's count)
By post 496, it was obvious that DYH wanted his vote on me as well. So, by that point you could really treat my bandwagon as having two votes. I even mentioned later my confusion as to why DYH hadn't proxied his vote to say, Cyan, knowing that Cyan would probably use it to vote me.
Also:
He even admits that he is opportunistic in post 488, which feels a lot like he is trying to negate a larger charge by admitting to a smaller one.
I didn't admit to being opportunistic. I said that I understood how people could view me as being that based upon my voting pattern. You're arguing for an intention that isn't there.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
Ok, I didn't really have the time at work to go over the PBPA so I just skipped to the anaylsis at the end and responded to those points. After reading through the PBPA and actually going back to read my posts compared with your anaylsis, it became evident to me that you had made up your mind before you even started.
Where were my summaries of your posts inaccurate? How do you figure that I made up my mind while I was doing it? Attacking one's accuser's credibility is what scum do when they can't touch the points.
Quote from atlseal »
I took the time to go back and check some of the things I had said compared with what else was happening. So, I have some more to add against your PBPA analysis:
By post 496, it was obvious that DYH wanted his vote on me as well. So, by that point you could really treat my bandwagon as having two votes. I even mentioned later my confusion as to why DYH hadn't proxied his vote to say, Cyan, knowing that Cyan would probably use it to vote me.
Did he specifically say that, or can you read minds? It doesn't really matter either way because with only 1 or a virtual 2 votes when it takes 13 (or 11 in your case) to lynch is hardly serious pressure.
Quote from atlseal »
Also:
I didn't admit to being opportunistic. I said that I understood how people could view me as being that based upon my voting pattern. You're arguing for an intention that isn't there.
Now you are just arguing semantics with me. You saying "I can see how I appear opportunistic" is like a little child writing his baby brother's name on a wall in crayon and saying "I can see how it appears that I tried to frame my brother" after his parents point out said brother can't spell his own name.
Where were my summaries of your posts inaccurate? How do you figure that I made up my mind while I was doing it? Attacking one's accuser's credibility is what scum do when they can't touch the points.
It's not the post summary. It's the analysis at the end with such weighted stuff that clearly got across that you did not go into it open mindedly. You state things that never happened and purposefully twist my words to lose their original intention.
Did he specifically say that, or can you read minds? It doesn't really matter either way because with only 1 or a virtual 2 votes when it takes 13 (or 11 in your case) to lynch is hardly serious pressure.
Here, let me provide you a link of when he said it:
He specifically said it, happy? The point you were trying to make is that I "read his mind" about being 2 closer to lynch so you must think it's relevant because you tried to find me suspicious because of it. Hopefully, this can now be put to rest as false.
Now you are just arguing semantics with me. You saying "I can see how I appear opportunistic" is like a little child writing his baby brother's name on a wall in crayon and saying "I can see how it appears that I tried to frame my brother" after his parents point out said brother can't spell his own name.
I don't like to, but I'm forced to argue semantics when you try to use semantics to twist my words from their original meaning. I also love your completely irrelevant/inaccurate comparison. It's more like me sitting in a class with my arms crossed and saying "I can see how you think I might be antisocial" when I'm actually quite the chatter-box once you get me going in real life.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
I find Grak's analysis on Cyan to make sense and I agree with most everything Grak says in his post.
The one thing I object to is bringing his track record from Misetings in as support to his credibility. Who cares what you can and do there? This isn't there. Play here, accomplish here what you say you do there and then I'll annoint you "rulezor scumzor hunter."
Until then, your seat is here, at the kiddie table, with the rest of us scrubs.
Unvote: loran16, Vote: Cyan as I think Grak is on the mark.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Soul Collector count: 184
PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
Matrix Mafia Town MVP
Medieval Mafia Mafia MVP
Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
The one thing I object to is bringing his track record from Misetings in as support to his credibility. Who cares what you can and do there? This isn't there. Play here, accomplish here what you say you do there and then I'll annoint you "rulezor scumzor hunter."
It should be noted, I never said I am a great scum hunter.
What I said is that scum react badly to me and that my results speak for themselves.
A significant portion of the time, other people catch the scum. My style just helps facilitate reactions and create an environment where scum are given opportunities to screw up.
It's not the post summary. It's the analysis at the end with such weighted stuff that clearly got across that you did not go into it open mindedly. You state things that never happened and purposefully twist my words to lose their original intention.
Frankly, you have yet to show where Abbey twisted anything you said, especially in multiples - as you seem to be implying he did it several times. I'm not sure what that quote from ZDS was supposed to prove.
Frankly, you have yet to show where Abbey twisted anything you said, especially in multiples - as you seem to be implying he did it several times. I'm not sure what that quote from ZDS was supposed to prove.
Let's take a couple examples:
1) Claiming my apparent worry when Cyan was the only one voting for me when it was easily viewed that you should be voting me too
2) Turning "I can see how what I'm doing can be viewed as opportunistic" to "I'm sorry, I was being opportunisitc"
Axelrod's line of questioning is spot-on, too.
I fail to see where you're going with this, but okay... All it showed was that I didn't have the time at the moment/was too lazy to go back and read what he was referring to before I answered just trying to base it off my memory of events.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
@atlseal: Your attempts to strawman Abbey's arguments are both terrible and obvious. Whether or not one person or two people were voting for you(or one 'should have been in your opinion') is completely irrelevant. It is still not enough votes to justify your actions. And with your second point, if anything, the way you worded your apparent opportunism is MORE scummy than just flat-out admitting to it. Acknowledging it but refusing to cop to it just makes it look like you're trying to pander to the town, without an actual admission of guilt.
To everyone that keeps getting on my case about atlseal. I thought that his unvote of ZDS was far too quick, and stunk of inside information. Nothing he has posted since then has changed my mind about this. And as I said, I doubt that the town has a bunch of roles that are all -2 the normal lynch threshold. I think that either A)atlseal made this up to establish a relationship between his role and that of a (assumed) town role or B)there are some scum and some town roles that share this disadvantage. Arguing that both masons AND some other town roles have this liability makes no sense.
@Grak: The only use of a mason is the fact that they are confirmed roles in the endgame. A single mafioso being able to kill 1 or more town roles with no hinderance whatsoever more than supercedes this.
How confirmed someone is is 100% irrelevant when the entirety of a day will consist of the following: 5 alive, 3 to lynch. 1 is mafia, 2 are ZDS and his buddy, 2 are..whatever. Day starts. Mafia votes a mason, day goes to night. Mafia submits an NK. Day starts. Mafia votes a mason, day goes to night. Mafia submits an NK and wins the game.
Please tell me why any mafia would kill a role that works this way. Who cares if they're confirmed. They're a complete liability. That doesn't mean we should kill them now, but certainly they're going to have to be resolved(if you can cure them, so much the better) at some point before the end game. Arguing that the mafia will solve a town problem in this fashion is absurd.
How was I jumping on DYH? I asked him a question. I didn't accuse him of anything. To me this reeks of you making more out of things than what's really there.
How can I see it not as jumping on DYH when the question you asked seemed to swiftly follow on the heels of Rafk's questioning and it was a question on something that DYH had made clearer earlier?
So far in this game, Cyan has posted weak attacks on multiple players, rarely supported any of his attacks with an actual case, he almost never references specific posts or comments by other players and instead likes to refer to things vaguely.
He's avoiding taking solid positions on anything, and everytime someone tries to pin down his position, he puts it in reverse and guns it.
He flip-flops as often as possible, and when he does it, he says it's because of "something someone posted somewhere."
His arguments are things like "I do not like that post" without an explanation of WHAT he didn't like.
He attacks players without backing it up with a vote (Especailly, ZDS post claim and CP pre-claim) and loves to tell other people how they should be nicer, and should logically address issues, while failing to logically address anyone elses points in this game.
To me, this sounds like rather typical Cyan. If it weren't for that, I'd totally vote for him.
Please tell me why any mafia would kill a role that works this way. Who cares if they're confirmed. They're a complete liability. That doesn't mean we should kill them now, but certainly they're going to have to be resolved(if you can cure them, so much the better) at some point before the end game. Arguing that the mafia will solve a town problem in this fashion is absurd.
That situation is highly implausible....lynching the first mason would make it obvious who the scum was, and then if that scum player wasnt online when day started up again, then there would be a chance that he'd be voted by the 2 remaining townies, including the mason, before he could finish off the masonry.
Anyhow, im home from work and would like to finish my analysis of people, but my parents are bugging me, but id like to make my opinion heard (And the audience groans!).
I have to agree with cyan's last post (ugh)....atl's actions before his wagon were fairly scummy, but his treatment of AG just strikes me as strawmanning completely. His answers to axel's questions have at best been...confused, while he focusses on AG's PBPA instead.
In otherwords, he focusses on the weaker attacker and his attacks (the pbpa, which like grak's from a while ago, is fairly loaded) have focused more on the weaker points of the PBPA than in defending himself as a whole.
I don't know what the vote count is at right now (Sutherlands? Az?) so ill FOS Atl for now. If atl's below 9 votes (putting him 2 away from lynch, i'll vote him.) I'd prefer a claim from him; name first as always.
Re: Grathkis on Cyan. Cyan's play has been weird this game, much more abbreviated and less intense than a usual cyan. It is something to look at. But the case on him isn't as strong as the one on atl.
Re: Axel's PBPAs of H-guy and vampyr. Vampyr's always struck me as a fence sitter in every game im in with him, so its hard to really tell. Moreover, fade's also been fence sitting, though far less blatant (see my vote analysis of fade), so if i had to go after someone for that reasoning, fade would probably be the person i'd attack right now.
Don't really know yet about h-guy, but i wanna hear from atl first. I'll get to him in the morning.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Mafia MVP Harry Potter Mafia!
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
I've found that making long, drawn out attacks on people isn't that useful. Inevitably they find the weakest point in your argument and do nothing but argue against it. This shouldn't work, yet it always manages to. It seems much more effective to make small, direct points against someone, engaging them some, and make drawn out points once they're already under some pressure. This tactic seems to have worked fine thus far against atlseal.
To address it before it comes up, I won't be responding to Grak's 'PBPA'. If it was done in the style that AG did it, I'd probably respond. But Grak has clearly made up his mind regarding my intentions already, and it's not worth the time it would take to change his mind, especially when there is already a relevant wagon present. It defeats the purpose of writing up a PBPA when you are so ridiculously biased throughout it.
It's not the post summary. It's the analysis at the end with such weighted stuff that clearly got across that you did not go into it open mindedly. You state things that never happened and purposefully twist my words to lose their original intention.
So you disagree with my synthesis after fairly summarizing your posts? Quite natural when I am calling you scum, but still haven't proven me to twist my words.
He specifically said it, happy? The point you were trying to make is that I "read his mind" about being 2 closer to lynch so you must think it's relevant because you tried to find me suspicious because of it. Hopefully, this can now be put to rest as false.
You are taking my comments COMPETELY out of their context and putting them into a new context to attempt to make yourself look better.
Post 296 is one by ZDS, not DYH whom I was asking if you could read his mind with regard to your assertion that it was fairly obvious he wanted to vote you by post 496. In the closest post by DYH, Post 291, he proxies his vote to Axelrod to put another vote ON ZDS because: "I've already mentioned I had a bad feeling about ZDS. Axel has presented good information. I also felt the same exact thing about Sutherlands when I saw the editted-in vote count." Nowhere in that post does he mention anything about wanting to vote you.
I don't like to, but I'm forced to argue semantics when you try to use semantics to twist my words from their original meaning. I also love your completely irrelevant/inaccurate comparison. It's more like me sitting in a class with my arms crossed and saying "I can see how you think I might be antisocial" when I'm actually quite the chatter-box once you get me going in real life.
No, my analogy was pretty spot on, but a nice strawman, will he keep crows out of my fields and scum out of my room?
@Grakthis: nice, connecting me to Cyan like that. How am I supposed to respond to that? Any response I make if Cyan comes up scum is going to be met with 'oh, but that's just what he would say if my theory were true!' regardless of what my alignment is. So I'll just point out a few things: first, it's a popular scum gambit, at least here, to try to oneself to townies in just the fashion you accuse Cyan of doing (which makes me want to agree with you whether or not your analysis is really sound; very clever scum tactic, btw, if Cyan is not scum). Second, Cyan does stuff like this anyway. Lynching him due to this kind of behavior is basically the same as lynching at random.
@Cyan: So basically, you're saying that it's okay for you to dismiss Grak's analysis of you by saying that Grak was biased from the start, but if atl says it, then we should lynch him, because it makes him scum? I can't say I'm liking that logic. Weren't you one of the ones berating Grak for just this kind of thinking not too long ago?
For what it's worth, both analyses were biased from the start, I agree. I especially like how if loran is scum, then Cyan looks scummy because he did vote for him, and if I'm scum, then Cyan is scummy because he didn't. On the other hand, that doesn't mean there aren't some valid points to them, though.
@Abbey: maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I have to agree with atlseal on this one. You pretty much just pulled that analogy out of your butt. What it looks like is that you're arguing intention, which you can't do. It doesn't work. Try focusing on the arguments that actually have some merit, instead of trying to make every word look scummy, and you'll have a more solid case, IMO. It isn't like there isn't plenty to work with.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
It should be noted, I never said I am a great scum hunter.
What I said is that scum react badly to me and that my results speak for themselves.
Reading you here, I can believe that. You play in a similar way to me, sowing the wind and reaping the whirlwind. Sometimes it's my crusades that hit scum day 1 (e.g. DotA, Star Trek) and sometimes it's the surrounding chaos (such as cp talking himself into a mathematics-lined hole in Elegant). For my money it's the best way to play mafia on day 1. And I'm reading you as town for doing it, in spite of not agreeing with everything you say. To talk is town. To hide is scum. And scum who talk to try to appear town will screw up eventually- that's my ideology.
Not really. Sometimes, like in this case, PBPA are meant to convince the town of someone's scumminess.
Moreover, tell us, why would someone do a PBPA on someone else if he had a neutral opinion of him to begin with ? There has to be *something* which rose interest in the first place.
"You know. I believe the point he was making was that the PBPA was near entirely negative."
"I agree with Loran that Cyan is playing differently this game, just as he described. But Cyan explained this and to be honest he's right. Now that does not mean that he is not using this as a ploy and when I look at the majority of his posts without seeing them as Cyan posts I do see the many of them as suspicous. I think that the majority of Grakthis' PBPA has merit and as such I will UNVOTE: CP although IGMEOU Vote: Cyan"
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
RELAPSED MAFIA JUNKIE
W – 33, L – 19, Broke Games - 9
Calvin & Hobbs Mafia, Mafia MVP
X-Men Mafia Town MVP
Simpson's Mafia - best use of character
Mtgnews Mafia Mafia - Town Madman
Mythos Mafia: the Dunwich Massacre Town MVP
English Literature Mafia Town MVP
Best Role-Playing Sin City Mafia
Werewolf Mafia - Mafia MVP
Doctor Mafia - Mafia MVP
Mafia: Escape from the Cylons - Town MVP
Lost Mafia - Co SK Winner with Kops
Random Mafia 3 - Town MVP
Looking back over the discussion between atlseal and AG, atl's arguments really fall apart on him. Even discounting the PBPA (which I haven't finished reading yet), this makes him look really, really bad to me.
I don't know how many votes are on him, so I'll just FOS atlseal. Feel like claiming any time soon?
I've found that making long, drawn out attacks on people isn't that useful. Inevitably they find the weakest point in your argument and do nothing but argue against it. This shouldn't work, yet it always manages to. It seems much more effective to make small, direct points against someone, engaging them some, and make drawn out points once they're already under some pressure. This tactic seems to have worked fine thus far against atlseal.
To address it before it comes up, I won't be responding to Grak's 'PBPA'. If it was done in the style that AG did it, I'd probably respond. But Grak has clearly made up his mind regarding my intentions already, and it's not worth the time it would take to change his mind, especially when there is already a relevant wagon present. It defeats the purpose of writing up a PBPA when you are so ridiculously biased throughout it.
This response is underwhelming. Grakthis made several good points in his PBPA, and the fact that he had "made up his mind" when he did it, does not make them less so. You won't be convincing anyone of anything like this.
It is, however, at least an acknowledgment, which is more than Vamp has given my PBPA. What's the matter, son? Afraid of putting your foot in your mouth?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Alright, well since it looks like I'd have enough votes if there were a recent vote count. I'll go ahead and first say that I'm the Cheshire Cat. I doubt this will be enough and that I'll be claiming my role soon, but if this is enough (for some reason I can't fathom), then so be it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
Alright, well since it looks like I'd have enough votes if there were a recent vote count. I'll go ahead and first say that I'm the Cheshire Cat. I doubt this will be enough and that I'll be claiming my role soon, but if this is enough (for some reason I can't fathom), then so be it.
This doesn't do squat for me, bub. If anything, it makes me more suspicious.
I'm happy to wait and see if anyone else wants to chime in with someting like "I have reason to believe the Cheshire Cat is town." But you don't seem to think that's very likely yourself.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Alright, well since it looks like I'd have enough votes if there were a recent vote count. I'll go ahead and first say that I'm the Cheshire Cat. I doubt this will be enough and that I'll be claiming my role soon, but if this is enough (for some reason I can't fathom), then so be it.
"I can't see why this would make your situation any more Transparent.
But it does make me Smile."
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
RELAPSED MAFIA JUNKIE
W – 33, L – 19, Broke Games - 9
Calvin & Hobbs Mafia, Mafia MVP
X-Men Mafia Town MVP
Simpson's Mafia - best use of character
Mtgnews Mafia Mafia - Town Madman
Mythos Mafia: the Dunwich Massacre Town MVP
English Literature Mafia Town MVP
Best Role-Playing Sin City Mafia
Werewolf Mafia - Mafia MVP
Doctor Mafia - Mafia MVP
Mafia: Escape from the Cylons - Town MVP
Lost Mafia - Co SK Winner with Kops
Random Mafia 3 - Town MVP
Cheshire Cat? As in, Alice in Wonderland? I guess that doesn't seem like complete nonsense, linked to a Matrix game. Not anything like worthy of an unvote, but not nonsense. Let's hear the rest.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
I have been without computer access for two days, and will be for one more. Expect a healthy serving of wisdom tomorrow.
Is the Cheshire Cat someone's nickname in the Matrix and I just missed it? Or are we really talking about the C.S. Lewis one?
The CS Lewis one.. There's some connection between Alice in Wonderland and the Matrix (such as the "follow the white rabbit" thing at the beginning of the original), but even still, it isn't very compelling. I want to see what his role is.
Lewis Carroll wrote Alice in Wonderland people. Stop saying C.S. Lewis.
I'm thinking, but that disability doesn't seem to make any sense....
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
@Vamp: Loran may really be on to something about you and reading - I've already made that very clear. I'll regurgitate for you and RafK here in a minute.
Now, for the last time I'm going to address this situation:
Hey, Raf, way to take that quote completely out of context. That reply you have there is a result of Kenji opening his big mouth about all the geomancers possibly dying as a result of one being killed.
Nitpick: it was Day One- you didn't have cop results, you had flavor from your PM.
Sue me, I wanted to confirm myself - and frankly, I don't see the problem with that. I wouldn't be upset with the current masons if the other had come out to confirm ZDS. In fact, that would've been better than him announcing the -2 lynch restriction, in hindsight.
This doesn't make any sense. What exactly are you implying? You know what, I don't care- I'm sick of this whole argument. QFT on Axelrod above.
And again- I only think we should reveal ZDS' mason if we're going to vig him. Do I think we should vig him? Down the line, probably, unless he can be "fixed". If he's going to be fixed, Grak wants to ensure he's town. You do the math. Either way, I think it merits discussion, hence the reason it was being talked about.
@RafK: Honestly, haven't enough people passed on your attack at me to give it up yet? You don't have a following because you're off-base and frankly, just wrong. It's got nothing to do with your attitude, which I like that you tried to play up before - "build a bridge and get over it, yadda yadda".
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Also, just as a confirmation, is Grakthis' ability one-shot? If so, there is even less of a reason to use it right now. Since atl claimed the same restriction as ZDS, it is conceivable that there are more players out there with such a drawback.
For the record, I am currently seeing DYH as town and Vampyr's post #548 reeks to me as trying to quickly jump on DYH following on the heels of Rafk's attack.
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
1) Vigging the mason is reasonable play. Do the math.
2) Making an appeal to people based on how they don't like your playstyle is kind of counterproductive when you're that condenscending. Is this you realizing that you have to be less 'nice' as scum so people can't read you?
3) You're wrong. DYH's original stance has been both consistent and well-defended. Personally, I think you're blinded by the fact that you always get into an argument with DYH, and you can't conceive of not doing it here. It has nothing to do with attitude, except maybe yours.
Mafia MVP BM Mafia
Mafia MVP Matrix Mafia
Having said that, I am somewhat suspicious of how long this back-and-forth about the other mason have been going. Maybe they want to indirectly out the other mason by observing people's reactions?
See, I can make conspiracy theories too.
Post 3: Joke votes Spoon
Post 62: Says that he wants to see what the votecount shows so he will continue voting for spoon. Agrees with ZDS and RafeK on Rafe's question of Xyre
Post 82: Agrees with Xyre about "being too defensive" as a scumtell.
Post 85: Response to DYH pointing out the flaws in post 82's argument. Says he was jsut trying to educate Wizpig anyways. Requests votecount
Post 87: Comments on "something interesting" for the votecount
Post 109: votes CP because "This smells much like you distorting what he[Xyre] was actually saying"
Post 117: Response to fade as to why people are suspicious of ZDS
Post 121: Confused response to CP multivoting
Post 190: Responds to Pod saying that he seems scummy by saying "I'm trying out new playstyles." Says that CP is looking for any reason to vote someone. Comments on the Xyre wagon that "For how early it grew, I'd say it grew really quickly." Says that he will go over those on the wagon "for less than stellar reasons" later.
Post 220: Asks CP to respond to his accusations
Post 252: Response to my question about Dwight's corpse
Post 286: Votes ZDS for Axel's catch. Response to loran's question of why Axel finds ZDS suspicious.
Post 302: Response to fade: mentioning a situation is commenting on it
Post 303: Cautions that ZDS could be -2 from a lynch.
Post 314: Unvotes ZDS "due to mason claim"
Post 322: Sees no reason to doubt a mason claim. Pseudo-response (not really addressing the point) to DYH calling his instant acceptance of ZDS' claim dubious.
POst 324: Says that he is not StormBlind
Post 328: Votes Spoon for "a lot of referring to yourself as part of the town collective there"
Post 337: Explains that he sees scum do what he voted Spoon for a lot in other games. Admits that he is looking for another wagon becuase one won't roll on ZDS today.
Post 374: Response to me
Post 440: Votes Sutherlands for flawed logic regarding lynching ZDS day 1
Post 464: Response to ZDS saying he is trying too hard to look townie is "isn't that a townie's job". Response to Cyan's disbelief of -2 lynches you.
Post 478: Response to my assertation that he has been bandwagonning. Claims that his only real bandwagon vote was ZDS.
Post 488: Responds to DYH's post 344 no because he claims that he missed it. Explains rationale for vote in 322 in more detail. Says that he doesn't worry about "a one-man crusade" agianst him but will answer the post anyways, fabricates a reason why he could miss points. Says that he isn't a bandwagon voter but could be classified as opportunistic with his voting.
Post 496: Wants to know Cyan's reasons for voting him
Post 503: Asks DYH why he hasn't proxied his vote to someone who will vote for atlseal
Post 510: Comments on people voting him (he is at 4 when he posts) that he will take 2 less votes to lynch
Post 512: Clarifies that he isn't ZDS' partner
Post 547: Rationalizes Cyan's behavior as mimicking chamber's style. Asks if Cyan has made a case against him.
Overall impression:
He seems to be an extremely opportunistic voter thus far, sticking to the "fling *#^% against the wall and see what sticks" theory of voting. Some of his rationale seems tortured to say the least (Post 322), and some it just seems like he is voting someone early because they screwed up and he wants to look like he got on the bandwagon early (ZDS in post 286 and Sutherlands in post 440). He even admits that he is opportunistic in post 488, which feels a lot like he is trying to negate a larger charge by admitting to a smaller one.
Looking beyond his voting pattern, he never commented on what he actually thought of Xyre's behavior or the argument against him, just the wagon. The only definitive thing that he had said about Xyre to that point was the he agreed that seeming "too defensive" was not a scumtell.
Breifly glacing at my summaries of his posting, one could say that it seems like he is trying quite hard to be the helpful townie as a good amount of his posts are responses to general questions people asked in the thread.
He contradicts himself in a couple of places: in post 488 he claims that he doesn't worry about one man crusades, and then proceeds to answer all of DYH's questions. He also seems to be bothered by Cyan's vote on him (see post 496), even though Cyan was the only one voting for him at that time (by Suth's count). He does seem to fulfill his own criteria of being overly defensive !=scummy which was articulated in post 82. Clearing wriggle space for himself?
A point of interest is that he seems to intuitively guess that ZDS could have the -2 to lynch thing in post 303, which (i think) is the first mention of such a restriction.
Another thing that bears mentioning is that within 50 posts of being bothered by Cyan's vote on him, he is rationalizing Cyan's behavior, despite Cyan never mentioning any reasons of why he was voting him in the first place.
With 11 to lynch him (if he is telling the truth), I feel quite comfortable with an unvote, vote: atlseal which makes it 6.
Second'd
Perhaps, but I can make educated guesses, can't I?
And what's with the bandwagonning this game? Even for mafia, it's excessive.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
I would have thought it was obvious that I didn't find Xyre's behavior that strange if I thought the wagon was full of it at the time.
I answer a lot of the questions because I'm on a lot of the time.
Heh, you're right... I try not to let one-man crusades get to me, but they always seem to. I will mention that one of the main reasons I'm bothered by Cyan's vote is that, to my knowledge, he is yet to explain any bit of it (very much like chamber was against me in Magic Mafia).
No, ZDS was the first one to mention it and I said that I have the same restriction in post 303 which is why I was not doubting the claim in the slightest.
Just because I think I've figured out why Cyan's doing what he's doing doesn't make it any less valid.
I'm not talking about whether or not you believed he really had such a disability, but what your thoughts on his alignment were at that point. You must have thought something.
If I think I understand the question you're asking:
When he claimed that as part of his role, it immediately granted credability to what he was saying. So, after he claimed that, I truly believed he was town and that he really is a mason.
You didn't unvote him....
That should actually read "any more valid". In other words: I think I know what Cyan's doing, but I also think it's really stupid.
This is backwards too. He claimed the disability before he claimed to be a Mason.
My mistake. I tried to remember why I did what I did instead of actually going back and checking (in my mind he had claimed mason and -2 to lynch in the same post).
The reason I didn't unvote was because the -2 lended him credability, but with a claim there could come counter claims, etc.
Just because you say that you made it very clear doesn't mean that it's always understood. I don't remember reading such from you. I must have forgotten. Regardless, when I typed the question up, I didn't have the answer. There's no reason to be snide about it. A few moments to point the answer out doesn't take much. In fact, in the time it took you to make the comment you did, you could have answered the question and been done with me.
Thank you for answering.
How was I jumping on DYH? I asked him a question. I didn't accuse him of anything. To me this reeks of you making more out of things than what's really there.
PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
Matrix Mafia Town MVP
Medieval Mafia Mafia MVP
Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
Let's start at the beginning, where all good stories start. Except ones that start en media res.... like, Saving Private Ryan. God that's a great movie. Anywho.
Cyan's first post, he's been talking to someone about my posting style. Tell me Cyan why would you be researching how I play mafia? Is it possibly because you wanted to know what kind of opponent I would be? Or wheather or not you should be afraid of me?
And why did you feel the need to start immediatly by attacking my credibility?
Sure is adversarial.
Well, if he's read "some" tings games, then he also knows my reputation goes beyond just my attitude, and is support by my results.
So again, I ask, why the attack on the credibility when you know my record?
For those of you who aren't familiar, scum panic when I am alive in the town. They absolutly flop all over themselves. I make them nervous in all kinds of tingly places. I've been night or day killed in the first 2 days in almost every single game I've been town. In every completed game where I wasn't, either the town won, or I was scum.
What we see from Cyan is exactly how scum who know my reputation react to me.
Call's the actions of CP questionable, without actually posting his own opinions about ZDS, or even linking or quoting the posts by CP he doesn't like.
Nice and vague.
This absolutly makes me giggle with delight. He might as well have held up a sign proclaiming his guilt.
First, he says he's not sure how he feels about the bandwagon on Xyre, then he votes Xyre. So obviously, he was lying when he said he wasn't sure... that, or else he changed his mind in the time it took him to type the next thought.
This is a classic tell, because it gives him a TON of room to backtrack meanwhile he's distancing himself from the bandwagon itself nicely by saying he doesn't agree with the original attack on Xyre anyways.
Again, talking about CP without quoting or pointing out any actual comments by CP.
And at first he was calling out CP for defending someone, now he's calling out CP for attacking someone. These two behaviors seem to be pretty consistent in my mind. CP is showing confidence and willingness to post opinions. These are positive things.
Does it scare you when townies do positive things, Cyan?
So we get a one liner, again not actually pointing out what posts of Loran's he's talking about, but unlike the two comments towards CP, he actually VOTES for Loran.
Why vote for Loran but not CP? Both cases are weakly spelled out, and weakly argued... but one of them he votes and the other he doesn't?
Worth remembering if one of the three dies.
[url=http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2080143&postcount=230]Finally! A long post from Cyan![/quote]. So this one gets linked instead of quoted.
The major part I don't like is him harping on CP being 'agressive' again but then backing off because of the 3 votes thing.
He also votes Xyre for really weak reasoning.
[URL="http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2080492&postcount=252"]mostly un-noteworthy[/URL] discussion about roleplaying and a comment Loran made.
Here we go... more of him backpeddling away from his attack on CP. Man... if I hadn't been reading CP as solidly town, I'd think these two were scum together.
Actually, if Cyan shows up scum, I will be seriously considering that a basis for a CP lynch... because Cyan is strongly signaling like he started the game distancing himself from CP (attacking for weakreasons, and not voting) and then as soon as he's given an excuse, he becomes CP's best friend in the whole world and starts attacking anyone who is questioning CP.
Man, could he jump on that bandwagon ANY quicker? That bandwagon was so iffy to start with... but that didn't even make Cyan blink before he lept on the back and said GITTYUP!
Hay guyz, let's not unvote the claimed mason who has just said how easy it would be to mislynch him!
Also, let's lean heavily on flavor. What do you think?
Though, I will say this much... if ZDS turns out to be scum, I'll mark Cyan green.
[URL="http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2082450&postcount=362"]Unapologetic backtracking...[/URL] have a spine, scum. If you're gonna take a questionable position on a claimed mason, stick with it. Don't run away from it a post later when you're called on it. That just tips your hat.
I mean, could he flip-flop ANY faster? My favorite part is his reason for the flip-flop....
lol. Because of some posts by someone else! HOW DETAILED AND SPECIFIC! TOTALLY TOWNIE!
[URL="http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2082477&postcount=369"]I think this one[/URL] might be my favorite post in the game so far.
Here's a great quote from it.
This is the guy who has addressed MAYBE half of the issues going on in the game, has failed to respond to me poking at him and calling him scummy, and started the game by attacking my reputation and, arguably, character.
But guys, can't we all just get along?
[URL="http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2082502&postcount=376"]Then in his next post...[/URL] when DYH wants to know who he's talking about, Cyan is like "oh... not YOU of course." So who WERE you talking about, Cyan? Or are you afraid to be specific for the one BILLIONTH time this game?
Cyan, Ready to backtrack at a MOMENTS NOTICE! BACK-BACK-AND-AWAY!
Then he drops this one on us.
How does he know there are at least two non-matrix characters in this game?
Then, he continues doubting ZDS, even though the last time he was called on that, he backtracked at lightning speed.
[URL="http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2082838&postcount=403"]But he wants to make sure we know[/URL] it's not cause he's a mason. Cause he's not. He's in that other group that knows other players roles and talks at night.
[URL="http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2082915&postcount=405"]Still harping on ZDS's claimed role[/URL]... even though, once again, the last time someone called him on wanting to lynch a mason he got defensive and denied it. And besides, something, someone, somewhere said made him decide ZDS was town. Or something.
[URL="http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2082924&postcount=406"]Wow![/URL] a link! He actually refered to something specific another player said in one of his posts! Awesome!
So, not only is he not paying attention to the game... he also didn't pay attention to the setup.
This one just flat out confuses me. Spoon quotes the mod in regards to when the game takes place... and Cyan says it's not quite that simple?
No. It is that simple. The mod said it in the opening post.
And here he goes AGAIN!
"I do not like ZDS role name, his claimed ability or anything about how he played, but I am not going to commit to attacking him, because then I would look scummy."
He just can't stop doing it.
I love posts like this. Whatever you do, Cyan, don't let us know what part of his 5 or 6 part response you didn't like. Just say "atlseal's last post."
[URL="http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2085991&postcount=499"]Insignificant[/URL] comment about interpreting my post. Meh.
[URL="http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2087103&postcount=531"]Yet again...[/URL] I am feeling like a broken record with this. He keeps telling us how ZDS's claimed role is so scummy, and how there are probably scum with that ability, and yet somehow ZDS is not scum.
I am backtracking from my previous position about ZDS and Cyan not being scum together. Now, thanks to the way Cyan keeps attacking ZDS without ACTUALLY attacking him, it's reading increasingly like scum who are trying to look townie by continualy poking at a teammate they expect to die anyways.
If ZDS later shows up scum, that's another blackmark on Cyan at this point.
[URL="http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2087151&postcount=536"]More "let's just get along" stuff.[/URL] I don't really see a problem with the posting... seems like a good discussion to me.
Why discourage discussion, Cyan?
I can't say I understand the value of this post. Has Cyan played a lot of games with DYH, such that he would have a valuable opinion about DYH?
[URL="http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2087919&postcount=556"]This post is full of goodies...[/URL] Like, he's almost setting up ZDS to survive till the end game without anyone questioning it. Because, OBVIOUSLY the mafia will not kill him.
I would say he's completely wrong... the mafia CANNOT leave two masons alive. Even if those two masons have the drawback of "cannot vote, if these two are the last 2 players alive, the town loses" or something ridiculous like that, the mafia STILL cannot leave them alive. Masons massively swing the endgame towards the town.
He does offer to summarize his points against ATL though... so let's see if he actually does it....
Summary For The Lazy and... well... non-masochists
So far in this game, Cyan has posted weak attacks on multiple players, rarely supported any of his attacks with an actual case, he almost never references specific posts or comments by other players and instead likes to refer to things vaguely.
He's avoiding taking solid positions on anything, and everytime someone tries to pin down his position, he puts it in reverse and guns it.
He flip-flops as often as possible, and when he does it, he says it's because of "something someone posted somewhere."
His arguments are things like "I do not like that post" without an explanation of WHAT he didn't like.
He attacks players without backing it up with a vote (Especailly, ZDS post claim and CP pre-claim) and loves to tell other people how they should be nicer, and should logically address issues, while failing to logically address anyone elses points in this game.
I am not sure we can find a better day 1 lynch in the entire history of mafia (hyperbole? You decide) than we have sitting right here in front of us.
I took the time to go back and check some of the things I had said compared with what else was happening. So, I have some more to add against your PBPA analysis:
By post 496, it was obvious that DYH wanted his vote on me as well. So, by that point you could really treat my bandwagon as having two votes. I even mentioned later my confusion as to why DYH hadn't proxied his vote to say, Cyan, knowing that Cyan would probably use it to vote me.
Also:
I didn't admit to being opportunistic. I said that I understood how people could view me as being that based upon my voting pattern. You're arguing for an intention that isn't there.
Where were my summaries of your posts inaccurate? How do you figure that I made up my mind while I was doing it? Attacking one's accuser's credibility is what scum do when they can't touch the points.
Did he specifically say that, or can you read minds? It doesn't really matter either way because with only 1 or a virtual 2 votes when it takes 13 (or 11 in your case) to lynch is hardly serious pressure.
Now you are just arguing semantics with me. You saying "I can see how I appear opportunistic" is like a little child writing his baby brother's name on a wall in crayon and saying "I can see how it appears that I tried to frame my brother" after his parents point out said brother can't spell his own name.
That line about how Abbey had already made up his mind, is pure gas.
It's not the post summary. It's the analysis at the end with such weighted stuff that clearly got across that you did not go into it open mindedly. You state things that never happened and purposefully twist my words to lose their original intention.
Here, let me provide you a link of when he said it:
Post 296
He specifically said it, happy? The point you were trying to make is that I "read his mind" about being 2 closer to lynch so you must think it's relevant because you tried to find me suspicious because of it. Hopefully, this can now be put to rest as false.
I don't like to, but I'm forced to argue semantics when you try to use semantics to twist my words from their original meaning. I also love your completely irrelevant/inaccurate comparison. It's more like me sitting in a class with my arms crossed and saying "I can see how you think I might be antisocial" when I'm actually quite the chatter-box once you get me going in real life.
The one thing I object to is bringing his track record from Misetings in as support to his credibility. Who cares what you can and do there? This isn't there. Play here, accomplish here what you say you do there and then I'll annoint you "rulezor scumzor hunter."
Until then, your seat is here, at the kiddie table, with the rest of us scrubs.
Unvote: loran16, Vote: Cyan as I think Grak is on the mark.
PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
Matrix Mafia Town MVP
Medieval Mafia Mafia MVP
Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
It should be noted, I never said I am a great scum hunter.
What I said is that scum react badly to me and that my results speak for themselves.
A significant portion of the time, other people catch the scum. My style just helps facilitate reactions and create an environment where scum are given opportunities to screw up.
Frankly, you have yet to show where Abbey twisted anything you said, especially in multiples - as you seem to be implying he did it several times. I'm not sure what that quote from ZDS was supposed to prove.
Axelrod's line of questioning is spot-on, too.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Let's take a couple examples:
1) Claiming my apparent worry when Cyan was the only one voting for me when it was easily viewed that you should be voting me too
2) Turning "I can see how what I'm doing can be viewed as opportunistic" to "I'm sorry, I was being opportunisitc"
I fail to see where you're going with this, but okay... All it showed was that I didn't have the time at the moment/was too lazy to go back and read what he was referring to before I answered just trying to base it off my memory of events.
To everyone that keeps getting on my case about atlseal. I thought that his unvote of ZDS was far too quick, and stunk of inside information. Nothing he has posted since then has changed my mind about this. And as I said, I doubt that the town has a bunch of roles that are all -2 the normal lynch threshold. I think that either A)atlseal made this up to establish a relationship between his role and that of a (assumed) town role or B)there are some scum and some town roles that share this disadvantage. Arguing that both masons AND some other town roles have this liability makes no sense.
@Grak: The only use of a mason is the fact that they are confirmed roles in the endgame. A single mafioso being able to kill 1 or more town roles with no hinderance whatsoever more than supercedes this.
How confirmed someone is is 100% irrelevant when the entirety of a day will consist of the following: 5 alive, 3 to lynch. 1 is mafia, 2 are ZDS and his buddy, 2 are..whatever. Day starts. Mafia votes a mason, day goes to night. Mafia submits an NK. Day starts. Mafia votes a mason, day goes to night. Mafia submits an NK and wins the game.
Please tell me why any mafia would kill a role that works this way. Who cares if they're confirmed. They're a complete liability. That doesn't mean we should kill them now, but certainly they're going to have to be resolved(if you can cure them, so much the better) at some point before the end game. Arguing that the mafia will solve a town problem in this fashion is absurd.
How can I see it not as jumping on DYH when the question you asked seemed to swiftly follow on the heels of Rafk's questioning and it was a question on something that DYH had made clearer earlier?
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
To me, this sounds like rather typical Cyan. If it weren't for that, I'd totally vote for him.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
That situation is highly implausible....lynching the first mason would make it obvious who the scum was, and then if that scum player wasnt online when day started up again, then there would be a chance that he'd be voted by the 2 remaining townies, including the mason, before he could finish off the masonry.
Anyhow, im home from work and would like to finish my analysis of people, but my parents are bugging me, but id like to make my opinion heard (And the audience groans!).
I have to agree with cyan's last post (ugh)....atl's actions before his wagon were fairly scummy, but his treatment of AG just strikes me as strawmanning completely. His answers to axel's questions have at best been...confused, while he focusses on AG's PBPA instead.
In otherwords, he focusses on the weaker attacker and his attacks (the pbpa, which like grak's from a while ago, is fairly loaded) have focused more on the weaker points of the PBPA than in defending himself as a whole.
I don't know what the vote count is at right now (Sutherlands? Az?) so ill FOS Atl for now. If atl's below 9 votes (putting him 2 away from lynch, i'll vote him.) I'd prefer a claim from him; name first as always.
Re: Grathkis on Cyan. Cyan's play has been weird this game, much more abbreviated and less intense than a usual cyan. It is something to look at. But the case on him isn't as strong as the one on atl.
Re: Axel's PBPAs of H-guy and vampyr. Vampyr's always struck me as a fence sitter in every game im in with him, so its hard to really tell. Moreover, fade's also been fence sitting, though far less blatant (see my vote analysis of fade), so if i had to go after someone for that reasoning, fade would probably be the person i'd attack right now.
Don't really know yet about h-guy, but i wanna hear from atl first. I'll get to him in the morning.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
To address it before it comes up, I won't be responding to Grak's 'PBPA'. If it was done in the style that AG did it, I'd probably respond. But Grak has clearly made up his mind regarding my intentions already, and it's not worth the time it would take to change his mind, especially when there is already a relevant wagon present. It defeats the purpose of writing up a PBPA when you are so ridiculously biased throughout it.
So you disagree with my synthesis after fairly summarizing your posts? Quite natural when I am calling you scum, but still haven't proven me to twist my words.
You are taking my comments COMPETELY out of their context and putting them into a new context to attempt to make yourself look better.
Post 296 is one by ZDS, not DYH whom I was asking if you could read his mind with regard to your assertion that it was fairly obvious he wanted to vote you by post 496. In the closest post by DYH, Post 291, he proxies his vote to Axelrod to put another vote ON ZDS because: "I've already mentioned I had a bad feeling about ZDS. Axel has presented good information. I also felt the same exact thing about Sutherlands when I saw the editted-in vote count." Nowhere in that post does he mention anything about wanting to vote you.
No, my analogy was pretty spot on, but a nice strawman, will he keep crows out of my fields and scum out of my room?
@Cyan: So basically, you're saying that it's okay for you to dismiss Grak's analysis of you by saying that Grak was biased from the start, but if atl says it, then we should lynch him, because it makes him scum? I can't say I'm liking that logic. Weren't you one of the ones berating Grak for just this kind of thinking not too long ago?
For what it's worth, both analyses were biased from the start, I agree. I especially like how if loran is scum, then Cyan looks scummy because he did vote for him, and if I'm scum, then Cyan is scummy because he didn't. On the other hand, that doesn't mean there aren't some valid points to them, though.
@Abbey: maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I have to agree with atlseal on this one. You pretty much just pulled that analogy out of your butt. What it looks like is that you're arguing intention, which you can't do. It doesn't work. Try focusing on the arguments that actually have some merit, instead of trying to make every word look scummy, and you'll have a more solid case, IMO. It isn't like there isn't plenty to work with.
Mafia MVP BM Mafia
Mafia MVP Matrix Mafia
Reading you here, I can believe that. You play in a similar way to me, sowing the wind and reaping the whirlwind. Sometimes it's my crusades that hit scum day 1 (e.g. DotA, Star Trek) and sometimes it's the surrounding chaos (such as cp talking himself into a mathematics-lined hole in Elegant). For my money it's the best way to play mafia on day 1. And I'm reading you as town for doing it, in spite of not agreeing with everything you say. To talk is town. To hide is scum. And scum who talk to try to appear town will screw up eventually- that's my ideology.
It was at the bottom of your last post, and it struck me as odd.
"You know. I believe the point he was making was that the PBPA was near entirely negative."
"I agree with Loran that Cyan is playing differently this game, just as he described. But Cyan explained this and to be honest he's right. Now that does not mean that he is not using this as a ploy and when I look at the majority of his posts without seeing them as Cyan posts I do see the many of them as suspicous. I think that the majority of Grakthis' PBPA has merit and as such I will
UNVOTE: CP although IGMEOU
Vote: Cyan"
Calvin & Hobbs Mafia, Mafia MVP
X-Men Mafia Town MVP
Simpson's Mafia - best use of character
Mtgnews Mafia Mafia - Town Madman
Mythos Mafia: the Dunwich Massacre Town MVP
English Literature Mafia Town MVP
Best Role-Playing Sin City Mafia
Werewolf Mafia - Mafia MVP
Doctor Mafia - Mafia MVP
Mafia: Escape from the Cylons - Town MVP
Lost Mafia - Co SK Winner with Kops
Random Mafia 3 - Town MVP
I don't know how many votes are on him, so I'll just FOS atlseal. Feel like claiming any time soon?
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
This response is underwhelming. Grakthis made several good points in his PBPA, and the fact that he had "made up his mind" when he did it, does not make them less so. You won't be convincing anyone of anything like this.
It is, however, at least an acknowledgment, which is more than Vamp has given my PBPA. What's the matter, son? Afraid of putting your foot in your mouth?
This doesn't do squat for me, bub. If anything, it makes me more suspicious.
I'm happy to wait and see if anyone else wants to chime in with someting like "I have reason to believe the Cheshire Cat is town." But you don't seem to think that's very likely yourself.
"I can't see why this would make your situation any more Transparent.
But it does make me Smile."
Calvin & Hobbs Mafia, Mafia MVP
X-Men Mafia Town MVP
Simpson's Mafia - best use of character
Mtgnews Mafia Mafia - Town Madman
Mythos Mafia: the Dunwich Massacre Town MVP
English Literature Mafia Town MVP
Best Role-Playing Sin City Mafia
Werewolf Mafia - Mafia MVP
Doctor Mafia - Mafia MVP
Mafia: Escape from the Cylons - Town MVP
Lost Mafia - Co SK Winner with Kops
Random Mafia 3 - Town MVP
Mafia MVP BM Mafia
Mafia MVP Matrix Mafia
Once everything w/ atlseal is resolved, I'll fully respond to Grak's guilty-until-proven-innocent PBPA, since that is what people seem to want.
Is the Cheshire Cat someone's nickname in the Matrix and I just missed it? Or are we really talking about the C.S. Lewis one?
The CS Lewis one.. There's some connection between Alice in Wonderland and the Matrix (such as the "follow the white rabbit" thing at the beginning of the original), but even still, it isn't very compelling. I want to see what his role is.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
No, this is the C.S. Lewis one as far as I could determine. I guess I'll go ahead and say my role now too...
I'm the Jack-of-all trades
My night abilities to choose from are: supercop (I get a player's name and role), doc, vig, and roleblock.
My -2 drawback comes from the grin emoticon. I have to use it once per day or be modkilled and once I use it, I'm at -2 to lynch.
I'm thinking, but that disability doesn't seem to make any sense....