Nice language.
I'm at work right now and won't be able to post again till tonight, but I will be posting again tonight for sure.
Let’s see.
You finally, after all this time of sniping that I’m scummy and being asked to put forth a case, you come up with a PBPA that goes over each of my posts and supposedly explains why you think I’m scummy. That’s all well and good. I’m more then willing to have anyone call me scummy as long as they go on record and explain why so I can either explain to them why they are wrong or challenge then if I think they are trying to misrepresent my posts. You critiqued 88 posts of mine in you attempt to finally show why you have been saying I’m scummy all game and I have responded to only a handful so far. Already you are trying to shut down my response to you PBPA.
Why is that?
If you are confident in your case, you should not be afraid of any response I make. If I try to mischaracterize your response it should glaringly show up and reinforce your point that I’m scummy. As it is I think that you are afraid that I will continue to show just how wrong and in some cases, clueless you are regarding what you have read. I also think that the fact that in just the few posts I have responded to I have show that you have completely ignored what is pretty obvious points I have made and tried to focus on things you pretend to not understand, at least I hope you are pretending, as proof that I am scummy.
So, I ask you Cyan, are you going to answer the questions I asked you in the responses I made? I’m betting not.
Are you going to keep trying to shut down my responses to your PBPA or will you let me finish? Again, I’m betting not.
I’ll put this question to the rest of you. Should I respond to each item in Cyan’s PBPA? Also does anyone see the difference in what Cyan tried to characterize as scummy about my posts and the responses I have made explaining what really was there?
All of this post just reads to me as: I'm just looking for an excuse to not have to respond to all of this. The shoe is on the other foot now, eh, Hawkeye? You always said you'd respond if someone brought a case against you. Now I brought a case against you, and you're just trying to weasel out of responding. Seems like you determined that I was scum when I did something similar. How is it any different for you?
I really don't see why Hawkeye continues to live. We're basically not talking about anything as a town, and he continues to act in the same scummy fashion that he has for days.
Re: the HE7 responses - My issue is that in his response to the PBPA he essentially keeps explaining all of his roleplaying and breadcrumbing. My question is, why was he breadcrumbing so much? I mean, the RPing we know. But why such blatant breadcrumbs? Ok, we get it, you were showing us your role. But WHY?
Interesting how you start out directing your questions from the town to me. Are you asking me why I bread crumbed or are you asking the rest of the game for speculation as to why I bread crumbed? I will assume you are and I will direct my questions to you Grak. Why does any player bread crumb? How often do scum players bread crumb? How often do scum players, from the get go, start the game bread crumbing and how often do they do it in a manner you have called blatant? If you are half the player I think you are you already know the answers to these questions and that should be enough to answer your questions.
Now, are we just going to wait for HE7 to finish his responses, or do we have something else to talk about? How about this: Hawkeye, you're under suspicion primarily for a lousy voting record and an unlikely and incomprehensible role. If you have anything to counter those, feel free to take a break from Cyan to let us know. That way, we can discuss any issues that might actually matter, and get on with lynching you, or not.
I appreciate this reasonable approach. I will continue to work on my complete response to Cyan and will post it when it is done. In the mean time lets also deal with the other issues as well.
Let me address my role first and then my voting record.
Well now, this is interesting.
By the time I had previewed my post and saw the post by Azrael there were ??? in place. I did not see whatever there may have been there before any editting.
Since I was at 6 votes prior to the vote count black out and there is a distinct possibility that i could get lynched without us seeing who cast the last three votes. With that in mind I will post my role so it will not be lost if i do get lynched.
It should have been painfully obvious that I'm Truman Burbank. My PM contains flavor that generally explains why i have the ability I have but it really does not pertain to this game.
My ability is such that I can cause one player to change their avatar to whatever i want it to be ( FORUM RULES DO APPLY). One time shot ability.
Now this ability brings to mind all kinds of questions regarding avatars and what they can do or not do for players in this game.
I asked if the change is permant and the response was what i had mentioned earlier.
As you can see this would make that question and vote by DYH very intersting coming from someone with no investigation abilites. Why would he ask me if i did it to him?
how would he have known that I could have made him change his avatar?
The setting of this game is timed after the end of the Truman Show movie.
Now I really do have to crash.
CP what is unlikely and incomprehensible about this role? We have several other roles in the game that do not draw from the Matrix Universe
2. Hvirfilvindr, Alice, Townie Reflector. Town
5. DYH, Peter Silberman, Townie Shrink. Town
9. Atlseal, The Chesire Cat, Mafia Emoter. Mafia
Each of these characters is taken from a source that deals in a fundemental way with the nature of reality as humans see it. Truman Burbank is the main character of the Truman Show. A movie that does exactly that but from two distinctly different view points. First from the view point of the audience, show director and his staff. And secondly, from the singular point of view of Truman, the main character of the movie. I had, honestly, never seen the movie before this game and have to thank Azrael for introducing me to it. It is a fascinating exercise in perspective and I think the character fits very well into the theme of this game. As for my ability, that is a question that I cannot completely answer yet. I can select a player and make then change their avatar to the avatar of my choice. At this point in the game I am not sure how much use my ability will be as I suspect it was designed to possibly help deal with the cult and rampant Agent Smith avatar use. I could be wrong and it could be useful for dealing with some other ability but it has not shown itself yet.
I don’t know if it is pertanent but my win condition, slightly paraphrased is “the mafia must die” with mafia replacing another word.
@Hawkeye : In addition to answering the previous questions by Grakthis and the Pigeon, can you please clearly state if you think Cyan is scum ?
There are two things that have kept me from voting for Cyan a long time ago. First, the fact that Axe confirmed part of Cyan’s claim and second, and I do not mean to be degrading here, but the fact I have seen Cyan, so many times in the past, be so complete wrong about a player or situation that it is possible that his fixation on me this game could easily just be another example of that.
These two Axe and Cyan are very interesting. I do find both of them to be suspicious and of the two I think it is Axe who I am most interested in analyzing.
I hope that answers your questions. If not, say so and I will try again.
Back to the PBPA response.
EWP: Cyan, you did see my posts responding to the first parts of your PBPA right? I assure you I will continue to do so untill I am done. That is unless you suceed in getting the others to vote for me before I get the chance.
Oh and by the way Cyan, this is the second time you have ignored answering my questions regarding your PBPA.
If you are having too difficult a time coming up with answers just say so and i will direct my questions to the rest of the players in general to speculate on what you meant or misinterpreted or simply missed.
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RELAPSED MAFIA JUNKIE
W – 33, L – 19, Broke Games - 9
Calvin & Hobbs Mafia, Mafia MVP
X-Men Mafia Town MVP
Simpson's Mafia - best use of character
Mtgnews Mafia Mafia - Town Madman
Mythos Mafia: the Dunwich Massacre Town MVP
English Literature Mafia Town MVP
Best Role-Playing Sin City Mafia
Werewolf Mafia - Mafia MVP
Doctor Mafia - Mafia MVP
Mafia: Escape from the Cylons - Town MVP
Lost Mafia - Co SK Winner with Kops
Random Mafia 3 - Town MVP
EBWODP:
CP I just realized I forgot to address the voting record part of your post. I did not keep a record of all my posts so i will scan through Cyan's PBPA to collect them and I will address them shortly.
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RELAPSED MAFIA JUNKIE
W – 33, L – 19, Broke Games - 9
Calvin & Hobbs Mafia, Mafia MVP
X-Men Mafia Town MVP
Simpson's Mafia - best use of character
Mtgnews Mafia Mafia - Town Madman
Mythos Mafia: the Dunwich Massacre Town MVP
English Literature Mafia Town MVP
Best Role-Playing Sin City Mafia
Werewolf Mafia - Mafia MVP
Doctor Mafia - Mafia MVP
Mafia: Escape from the Cylons - Town MVP
Lost Mafia - Co SK Winner with Kops
Random Mafia 3 - Town MVP
I'm ignoring your questions on purpose, because I think you're just trying to use them as a distraction from having to actually answer the PBPA in the first place. You asked for a case on you, I gave you one. Now you're changing your tune. No big surprise there.
EBWODP: And also, I love the ad hom attack on me, there. Just more scummy behavior on your part. That seems particularly interesting since, every time I've been town and thought you were scum, I was right. A point which is easily proven by referencing other games on here and/or on news.
I think that, if Hawk wanted to, he could easily choose a character from the Matrix pantheon without likely hitting another player. The fact that he's claiming Truman is a point in favor of that. However, I could rather easily see his ability as either a stand-alone (perhaps not as a one-of) or as an additional ability for a godfather; either way, I think he could rather easily work as scum.
I believe his claim as Truman. Though it seems a little more of a stretch than most of the claims we've seen, I don't have a problem with it. I don't believe, however, that there's a role so narrow as to only have a temporary, one-time effect on a single neutral party in the game. That's the problem I have with the claim.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Interesting how you start out directing your questions from the town to me. Are you asking me why I bread crumbed or are you asking the rest of the game for speculation as to why I bread crumbed? I will assume you are and I will direct my questions to you Grak. Why does any player bread crumb? How often do scum players bread crumb? How often do scum players, from the get go, start the game bread crumbing and how often do they do it in a manner you have called blatant? If you are half the player I think you are you already know the answers to these questions and that should be enough to answer your questions.
If your behavior were typical scum behavior, I wouldn't have posed it as a question to the town. I'd have made it an attack and I'd have voted you.
The reason I didn't ask YOU is because I know what your answer will be, regardless of your alignment.
Kraj
Based on the investigation result posted here http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2125724&postcount=1515
I voted for kraj in this post. http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2126424&postcount=1574
I had waited for Kraj to post a response and after it voted. Appearently my vote cut off a discussion that was working towords generating a general opinion whether or not the other mason should reveal himself. Something I had been on the record as being against and frankly there was no compelling reason, imo, for them to have done so at that time. Since I am being scrutinized now through Cyan’s PBPA by examining my posts with 20/20 hindsight I think it is fair to say that I was correct in this. There was no reason to try to pressure the masons to reveal themselves that early.
To summarize
I have voted for CP based on early noncommitted play and fense sitting. (yet to be proven right or wrong on him)
I voted for Cyan for well documented reasons. (yet to be proven right or wrong on him)
I voted for Hvir for reasons regarding his role and lack of response to my repeated hints and questions about locations. ( I was wrong about Hvir)
I voted for Kraj based on the investigation by Atlseal. (I was correct about him)
I pressured DYH with a case based on my role information, wording of DYH posts that I directly and repeatedly questioned and his use of the Agent Smith Avatar. (I was wrong about him)
I voted for Atlseal based on the mutating nature of his role and Xyre’s catching him in a lie. (I was right about him.)
In all honesty I was undecided about Loran at the time he was lynched and that is why I did not vote for him.
Just for reference, here are the votes at the point of days end or just prior to days end.
This is a list of the players who posted that they voted for Atlseal in the order in which they claimed it.
ATLSEAL: , Puzzle, HAWEYE7, Axelrod, AbbeyGargoyle, Alx2, Vampyr, ZDS, CP, Cyan, Fadeblue, Spoon, Grakthis
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RELAPSED MAFIA JUNKIE
W – 33, L – 19, Broke Games - 9
Calvin & Hobbs Mafia, Mafia MVP
X-Men Mafia Town MVP
Simpson's Mafia - best use of character
Mtgnews Mafia Mafia - Town Madman
Mythos Mafia: the Dunwich Massacre Town MVP
English Literature Mafia Town MVP
Best Role-Playing Sin City Mafia
Werewolf Mafia - Mafia MVP
Doctor Mafia - Mafia MVP
Mafia: Escape from the Cylons - Town MVP
Lost Mafia - Co SK Winner with Kops
Random Mafia 3 - Town MVP
Well, we know you can TARGET him. The question is can he TALK from Limbo.
So be sure to be extremely specific on this... don't just ask if you can bring him into your Favorite 5. Ask him if CM will be able to TALK while in Limbo.
Ok. Noted. >_>
Also, I received a reply from Az with regards to my previous question of whether I could specifically target those in Limbo. He said I may attempt to, with special emphasis on the term 'attempt'.
It doesn't really make sense with regards to 7b. Any thoughts on this?
RafK wins the thread for using the word vocabulariat.
@Hawkeye: Just posting final vote counts doesn't mean anything. Any scum can hop on a bandwagon, even of their scum buddy, when they realize that the person is going down. Atlseal is a prime example of this, in your case. You virtually ignored all attacks on him, until it was obvious that he was going down, then you claim to have voted him. It's disappointing that you're trying to misrepresent this and make yourself look better here.
RafK did post that he was voting Atlseal. Also, I was the first person to vote atlseal, almost immediately after the vote fog was put into effect. This is easily referenced by the fact that RafK *****ed at me for 'opportunism'. And CP has maintained constant suspicion of atlseal throughout the entire game, so his not immediately stating his vote of atlseal means nothing. Again, it looks like you're just trying to make yourself look good there because you were the 'second' vote on atlseal.
Every post that Hawkeye makes is just more and more misrepresentation. This is getting pretty silly.
I wonder which of the above Hawkeye is referencing? If the latter (as I suspect), I have to agree with Cyan that the argument that HE7 was one of the first on the "bandwadon" holds much water. The flurry of people claiming to have voted at the end of the day was merely bookkeeping for what had already become a foregone conclusion.
@HAWKEYE7: if you want to show that your voting record has been any good, it would be nice if we could see some enthusiasm for the votes which you turned out to be "right" about. Barring that, I'd even take an active defense of either loran or atl at any point as evidence of a sort in your favor; at least it would mean, if you were town, that you valued expressing worthwhile opinions over your appearance and who you were linked to. Heck, I'd even take a defense of anyone as a demonstration of that point, to a degree. As it is, it looks plenty like you want to avoid being linked to people who might look scummy. You claim to have been "undecided" on loran, and basically totally ignored atlseal until the end of the day, and that just looks bad.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
I will confess to not doing stuff that I could be doing.
As far as I know, no one has really gone back and looked close at altseal's interactions with every player. This is because the thread is so enormous that the time this would take is prohibitive. But 2 scum dead means we ought to have 2 points of reference in terms of reads on other players, and hopefully be twice as accurate.
My "let's figure out who the SK is" was me being lazy in a way, because that's something I could do without reviewing the whole thread. With Grak revelations and the attempted shooting today, now I think that the group of
1. Spoon
2. Rafaelk 7. Abbeygargoyle
Has best odds. In fact, with Raf role-playing as Keanu from Bill and Ted (as opposed to Keanu from The Matrix) he may be less likely to be SK as well. I wouldn't quite envision that role as one which goes around shooting people. Could still be scum, of course, but
maybe not SK kind of scum. Yes, I know that this is not the best reason to excuse someone from being SK.
Spoon being a gimick account is also a point in his favor for not being SK. That was an account that was bound to draw a bit of attention just for being a gimmick. SK is hard enough to win as without making it a role that draws attnetion to itself.
Brings me back to Abbey the complete blank. Best odds of SKness from where I'm sitting.
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Also, and this certainly doesn't prove anything either, but I pegged Abbey as my top choice for SK early in the Day, and apparently the SK decided to shoot at me today.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
That's only a point against him if you assume he forgot that you wouldn't die. I think that we've done the SK hunting to death for the day; we haven't gotten anywhere with anyone that justifies a lynch. So it's back to the mafia hunt, and HE7 is a perfectly good target.
Agree we should wait for Puzzle, though. Just in case he does have relevant info to spill.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
I've been having troubles at home AND at work connecting. I also screwed up the last vote count, which I had originally forgotten and then lightning-edited forgetting CP's votes.
Whether you choose to believe I ever lurk on purpose or or not is your problem.
In any case, what questions have I dodged ?
On the plus side, though, I think I have come to notice something relevant in my role but I won't say what it is before RafK, AG and Spoon claim. I must impress the fact that I'm disappearing tonight and that my replacement may not catch on it.
@ ZDS : I suspect CM gave you some elements that may help you understand what I'm trying to achieve. Try to understand why I'm doing that ; rereading what CM sent with more attention may help, flavour & co.
After reading more of the thread, if players can target others in limbo, can't Dagger contact CM in limbo directly rather than me ? If I can get claims from RafK, Spoon and AG, I will have said all I have to say and he may be able to confirm what I think.
Based on the flavour of the daykill scene, I'm ready to accept Axelrod as non-SK. RafK and Grak can't be it either (RafK is vanilla today and Fade said he removed kill abilities), so my short-list here is now Spoon & AG.
Can't we just get both to full claim ? I'd like RafK to follow then.
At this point, I will add my input and we can lynch HE7 or Spoon or Ag depending on what they say.
You really need to tell us what C_M might have been talking about.
I'm fine with making Abbey and Spoon claim first, but you'll need to spill the beans after that.
Something about your role is not sitting right with me.
I really don't get why we're worried about these claims today. Everyone seems to agree that Hawkeye is worth lynching. After said information is revealed, he will still be worth lynching.
If there's a real chance that this outing of information will catch the SK, then of course that's great..but do we really think that will happen?
Puzz- to use your info, is it just our claims you need, or would you also need name claims from the people who have claimed ability but not name (Grak, Alx, cp and Dagger I think, unless I missed something)?
EBWDP: I guess you wouldn't need Dagger's name, since she totally talks to you at night (is she a hot babe, dude?), but what about the others Puzz?
You don't mind if I call you Puzz? Only it rhymes with fuzz, and the fuzz are totally bogus, so I can totally undestand why you wouldn't want to be called Puzz, man.
Here’s the next installment of my response to Cyans PBPA.
I will post again tonight with more. This section contains some very interesting examples of attempted bias or complete misinterpretation by Cayn. Please look over the posts and the analysis closely and decide for yourselves.
States that Alx is playing for reactions before making a case on Wizzipig. Nevermind that Alx listed several reasons, in this post, as to why he is willing to look at Wizzipig. Also, nevermind that Hawkeye did exactly the same thing himself earlier in the game.
Yes, he did list reasons that if he felt were valid then he should have voted for him. He did not, he let the fact that no one else was paying enough attantion to Atlseal to be his justification to turn to another target. This removes the responsibility from him for not casting a vote on Atlseal while still saying that he thinks atlseal maybe a legit candidate.
You are wrong here Cyan, this is not something I did earlier in the game.
Yes, I wanted more information from you regarding the little information you revealed and I wanted you to go an record as stating a definite piece of general information that possibly would be of help down the road in either confirming or not your claim. You can try to paint this as “fishing” with a negative connotation but I’ll leave that to the rest of the players to decide.
Fishing again. Probably an attempt to make his question seem more serious, and less like fishing, even though that is exactly what it is.
Try, try again. As you have so many times in this game Cyan, when asked a specific question or confronted with a case you needed to respond to you ignored my question. I tried to hold your feet to the fire and get it answered. I’m still trying to do that. You still have not answered any of the questions I have posed to you regarding you PBPA points. I suppose if you don’t want to or cannot defend a weak or completely wrong point, it is best to avoid answering it and try to bury it in posts urging people to rush to lynch the person making the questions.
Unvotes me, for whatever reason. Apparently according to Hawkeye, at this point, it was okay that I hadn't answered Graks PBPA. But he thinks I should address it anyway...doesn't make alot of sense to me. This is pretty much wholly contradictory with the fact that, numerous times past this, he will attack me for..not answering Grak's PBPA.
This is still early in the game and you have not, to this point amassed the long record of avoiding, refusing and ignoring legitimate cases, questions and situations in the game. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt and unvoted to try to lower the level of pressure on you, in the hopes that you would feel more cooperative. This failed. You became even more uncooperative.
Disagrees with Grakthis' assessment that LJustus isn't clever. What he is effectively saying is that LJustus could be scum.
????
Maybe you should re-read the post. I did not say Ljustus could be scum. I said that there was a low likelihood that the action Grak was commenting on was a scum tactic, IMO.
It is this type of complete misreading or my posts that makes me question your intentions here Cyan. How can you completely miss so obvious a point?
Says that lynching LJustus, for the purpose of gaining an investigation, is better than lynching someone 'at random' or 'mislynching a townie'. I don't really get this sentiment, because obviously the town isn't going to lynch at random or knowingly lynch a townie. Then he immediately contradicts himself and says that we shouldn't let LJustus live.
?????
This is the second post in a row that you misread.
I said that I thought Ljustus would be better then a random lynch or a mislynched townie but I did not think that he should be our lynch choice and that we should continue to look for more suspicious targets. I NEVER said that we should not let Ljustus live. I said that if we could not find a more suspicious target then he should be our fall back lynch for the reason Ljustus himself gave for why the town would gain by him being lynched. I even state that the three players I think are the more suspicious, at this point, are Fade, CP and Cyan.
Look, I know that reading these responses are tedious but I urge everyone to look at these last two posts critically and see if cyan is interpreting my posts or misrepresenting my posts.
Re: the HE7 responses - My issue is that in his response to the PBPA he essentially keeps explaining all of his role-playing and bread crumbing. My question is, why was he bread crumbing so much? I mean, the RPing we know. But why such blatant breadcrumbs? Ok, we get it, you were showing us your role. But WHY?
Interesting how you start out directing your questions from the town to me. Are you asking me why I bread crumbed or are you asking the rest of the game for speculation as to why I bread crumbed? I will assume you are and I will direct my questions to you Grak. Why does any player bread crumb? How often do scum players bread crumb? How often do scum players, from the get go, start the game bread crumbing and how often do they do it in a manner you have called blatant? If you are half the player I think you are you already know the answers to these questions and that should be enough to answer your questions.
If your behavior were typical scum behavior, I wouldn't have posed it as a question to the town. I'd have made it an attack and I'd have voted you.
The reason I didn't ask YOU is because I know what your answer will be, regardless of your alignment.
So was your question, which you directed to the town, not me, a rhetorical question? If you know what my response, regardless or my alignment would be, then wouldn’t you know what most of the rest of the town’s responses would be?
I wonder which of the above Hawkeye is referencing? If the latter (as I suspect), I have to agree with Cyan that the argument that HE7 was one of the first on the "bandwagon" holds much water. The flurry of people claiming to have voted at the end of the day was merely bookkeeping for what had already become a foregone conclusion.
@HAWKEYE7: if you want to show that your voting record has been any good, it would be nice if we could see some enthusiasm for the votes which you turned out to be "right" about. Barring that, I'd even take an active defense of either loran or atl at any point as evidence of a sort in your favor; at least it would mean, if you were town, that you valued expressing worthwhile opinions over your appearance and who you were linked to. Heck, I'd even take a defense of anyone as a demonstration of that point, to a degree. As it is, it looks plenty like you want to avoid being linked to people who might look scummy. You claim to have been "undecided" on loran, and basically totally ignored atlseal until the end of the day, and that just looks bad.
look you can dismiss my vote for Atlseal or when I voted for him if you want. The facts of when I did and that I did are there in the posts and when I am lynched it will be confirmed. it will also be obvious that there is an effort to marginalize this being done on the part of some players and that should be questions as to why.
What, exactly, do you mean by "if you want to show that your voting record has been any good, it would be nice if we could see some enthusiasm for the votes which you turned out to be "right" about." If I was right , I was right, just as any other player. If I was wrong, I was wrong, also as with any other player. I don't understand what you mean by enthusiasm.
As for who I have been linked to and why. CP you hit upon an interesting point. a very interesting point. After I am lynched that should be scrutinized very closely. It will be seen that I am town. that I spoke the complete truth and I posted in a particular manner for most of the game. look at how specific players reacted to me.
I will elaborate more on this just before I am lynched. it is very important.
@Hawkeye : Had Axelrod not claimed in favor of Cyan, would you be voting for the latter right now, in response to his PBPA ? (not necessarily in a voluntarily OMGUS fashion).
I would have voted for him a long time ago. As I go through his PBPA I see many completely wrong interpretations of the things I wrote. I can understand how someone would not agree with a point I made but Cyan is either completely misreading many of my posts or deliberately distorting them. Yes I would vote for him now if not for Axe’s support for parts of his claim.
Cyan, I am responding to the points of the PBPA you made and since I disagree I have questions on many of them. I have posted those questions and will continue to do so. I as you again to answer then. Honestly, if you are confident that I am scum and in the validity of the points you have made why don’t you answer them. If you are right in your case you will only make your case stronger and make me look scummier by directly and thoughtfully responding to my questions. It will clear up the meaning of your points and expose any deception on my part. Why would you not take advantage of that to rid the game of a player you have all game called scummy?
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I don't see why we are doing a massclaim while we have a perfectly good bandwagon going on here. I still don't want to claim with or without Grak's vote. My position will only strengthen as the days roll by for now, so it is everyone's best interest for me not to claim at until absolutely necessary.
HE7 has done nothing to convince me that he isn't scum. I could definitely see Truman as scum. Half of the movie is about his attempt to escape an alternate reality that the show creates and he grows to hate. Shades of the Kid anyone? Vote stands.
HE7 has done nothing to convince me that he isn't scum. I could definitely see Truman as scum. Half of the movie is about his attempt to escape an alternate reality that the show creates and he grows to hate. Shades of the Kid anyone? Vote stands.
Thanks for posting after me AG.
Tell me what specifically do you find suspicous about me?
Please be specific and as detailed as possible.
Apparently realizing that LJustus isn't going to get lynched, Hawkeye goes back to the lowest hanging fruit(me)..
Players of the game. PLEASE read my post and read cyan’s analysis of it. Is this really what happened or is my post consistent with what I had been saying and pursuing at that point in the game? I had waited a fair period of time to see if Cyan would address the Case Grak presented against him and based on his ignoring that case I voted for him. A vote in agreement with points in the case and to pressure Cyan to address the case. This is pretty self evident.
Claims that I'm blocking and being obstinate by pointing out the fact that he never had a reason for voting me in the first place. Which he didn't. Now he claims to have 'noted' many of the same observations that Grakthis did, regarding me. Of course, initially he just 'agreed' with Grak's PBPA. Now he apparently noticed all of the same things. But just didn't mention them. How convenient..
Again, PLEASE read my post and then this analysis to it. He says this in response to my asking him again to address the case against him.
Speaking of you unvoting me, you never gave a reason for voting me in the first place, nor a reason for unvoting me.
And I don't feel like answering Grakthis's biased PBPA right now, this LJustus matter seems much more interesting. Besides, why would I need to prove my innocence when LJustus dying, and me being investigated(if he is telling the truth), will prove it for me? When he dies and turns up scum, I'll address Grak's attack on me at that point.
I’m on record as being suspicious of him, grak makes the extensive case against him, he ignores it he get’s repeatedly asked to address it and he now refuses. I stand by my post and say that this analysis of his is just wrong and spin.
Wants to know why Axel is voting for LJustus. Nevermind that LJustus asked people to vote for him, etc etc, an idea which Hawkeye himself had previously claimed as a good idea..
I can understand how Cyan would be unable to catch my meaning here. Axelrod, voted for Ljustus with a single phrase, vote: ljustus. I found the fact that he did not comment or post any other information or reasoning to be very unlike Axelrod. I parodied his conciseness by questioning his reason for voting with an even more concise “why?” question.
Attacks Axelrod, for seemingly no reason. This whole sequence makes no sense. LJustus wants to be lynched. Axelrod tries to oblige. Hawkeye then attacks Axelrod for it. And of course, even though this post has nothing to do with me, he uses it to throw dirt on me..
Again, please read my post. I think it is very clear. Ljustus claimed to have a valuable ability that would be of use to the town. An ability that would come into play when he is lynched. Some players then launched a campaign to do just that and lynch Ljustus for little more then the reason to use that ability even though we really did not have a compelling reason to do that at that time. It is obvious that Ljustus wanted to get a consensus that he should be allowed to hammer himself when the time came to lynch him so he could ensure that there was no misinterpretation of what would happen or what we would receive from his investigation. I commented that I thought Axe’s post worked towards making that happen at that time rather then saving the ability for a much more advantageous moment. This concept of saving an extra investigation for a time that could be possible be selected by the town or at least coached to Ljustus so that we maximized it should have been obvious to a player of Axe’s caliber and I found that also odd.
Attacks Axel again, claiming that Axel was being deliberately dishonest by omitting certain 'possibilities'. Then goes on to say that he is going to list his own possibilities, but if he leaves any out, it's okay. Fascinating that it's not okay for Axel to do so, but it is for Hawkeye.
Of course, he attacks CP again, claiming CP is fence sitting(nevermind that he is responding to an attack that CP made on him in the first place..I fail to see how you can be fence sitting when you're directly criticizing someone)..
I found Axe to, again, have posted in a manner that I considered uncharacteristic. Axe is normally a very thorough player and not one to miss an obvious point. It seemed to me that his list of possibilities left off several obvious ones. I questioned that. When I see some players miss obvious points I have to consider it typical. When I see certain players, Axelrod is one of them, miss obvious points it is not typical and thus worth noting.
The real meat of my post was that I summarized my thoughts about Ljustus and why I was voting for Cyan. Interesting, Cyan missed this large and obvious point.
Says that it isn't 'impossible' that I just randomly made up my role out of the Terminator mythos and got lucky that DYH is from the same, just that it is improbable. In reailty, this is improbable to such a degree that it is worth neither mention or even consideration. Just wants to try to discredit my claim without doing so directly. It's also worth noting that, at the very same time that he is trying to discredit my claim, he is also saying that I didn't have to immediately claim my full role, that just my name would have sufficed. These statements are pretty much entirely contradictory..
You are spitting hairs here. You also completely, again ignore the main part of this post. I directly, again, explained why you should respond to the case Grak posted against you and I quoted the post you made where you say you don’t know why you said you would address it. The fact remains that for a great deal of time you ignored the case and when repeatedly asked to do so you did say that you would. You then tried to ignore it again and finally said that you would not. How many times over how many posts and time have you refused to answer the case against you? When you said that you would address it , then refused to do so, how long, how many posts and how much time pasted before you finally did respond?
I will continue to work on responding to the PBPA while also addressing current topics directed to me. I am also coming up with some specific ideas as to events in the game and people I will be looking directly at, as a result of reviewing all these posts.
More to come.
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@Hawkeye: I don't really see a pressing need to respond to each one of your responses. For one, it comes across to me that this is just an attempt on your part to draw this out, and hope you find something minute and mundane to focus on, thus enabling you to strawman my entire argument. But more importantly, as you continue to respond, more people are coming to realize that you're scum anyway. Thus, my work is already done. Aside from all of that, your responses barely explain anything anyway, and mostly just ridicule me, which is also scummy.
@Hawkeye: I don't really see a pressing need to respond to each one of your responses. For one, it comes across to me that this is just an attempt on your part to draw this out, and hope you find something minute and mundane to focus on, thus enabling you to strawman my entire argument. But more importantly, as you continue to respond, more people are coming to realize that you're scum anyway. Thus, my work is already done. Aside from all of that, your responses barely explain anything anyway, and mostly just ridicule me, which is also scummy.
Cyan, I realize you're probably town, but this attitude does NOTHING to help us. This is exactly what you got attacked by me at the beginning and exactly why you were forced to roleclaim and even then almost lynched till Axelrod saved you.
You make weak arguments, you refuse to back them up, you make unfounded accusations and claims and you generally flail around.
If you want to help the town, stop it. Make a case, argue it, argue back when he refutes something. Don't just attack HIM and then refuse to address his points.
You cannot win at maffia like this. No matter what your alignment.
@Hawkeye: I don't really see a pressing need to respond to each one of your responses. For one, it comes across to me that this is just an attempt on your part to draw this out, and hope you find something minute and mundane to focus on, thus enabling you to strawman my entire argument. But more importantly, as you continue to respond, more people are coming to realize that you're scum anyway. Thus, my work is already done. Aside from all of that, your responses barely explain anything anyway, and mostly just ridicule me, which is also scummy.
Cyan, think about what you are saying here. You have insinuated I am scummy for nearly the entire game. For 80 percent of that time you did not post clear reasons for these insinuations, even though I asked you nearly every time you did it to provide those reasons. Now that you have completed what you, yourself, called a daunting task of doing a PBPA of my then 88 posts. I’m sure it took you a while to compile it. You are trying to use it to prove your point and I am responding with my defense of those points. I have real problems with most of the statements and interpretations you have made regarding my posts and I am including them into my responses. Some of that is in the form of questions to you that you are now openly refusing to answer. You have on at least three occasions urged the group to forgo my response and simply lynch me without reading my rebuttal and here you are openly saying I should stop responding at all.
Sorry, but I will finish this response before the weekend in out and I will also continue to answer any current questions directed to me. Once I am done showing how wrong you are I will then turn to several key points in the game to analyze the posts and to scrutinizing specific players who have come up in my review of the posts you have misrepresented.
By all means continue to try to get me lynched before that happens though.
Good luck.
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Random Mafia 3 - Town MVP
That's pretty rich, coming from someone that has done nothing all game other than day-protect a scum.
Also, it's incorrect to say that my arguments against Hawkeye are weak or unfounded. Apparently plenty of people agree with me. Enough so that Hawkeye is 2 votes from lynch. And he's really not making any points anyway. He's repeating everything that he said the first time. And before that, all he could say was 'that wasn't what I meant', which stating anything at all. His entire posting history for this game has been nothing but a smokescreen, and his latest posts are more of the same.
Furthermore, I don't need advice from you as to how to play the game of mafia. If my only options for playing mafia were A)play like Grakthis or B)never read a mafia post again, I would quit without hesitation. You are, by far, the least useful and least enjoyable player that I have experienced, ever. Hell, just today you outed yourself for no reason, when you could have easily clarified all of that privately. Who are you to tell me how to play the game of mafia? And lastly, statements like 'you cannot win at mafia like this' are absolutely and utterly useless. I have been on the winning team of the game of mafia far, far more often than not. Which means absolutely nothing anyway, because sometimes you play a huge part in your teams victory, and sometimes you just suck. Sometimes, you do a great job while you're alive, but then die and your team blows it. It's seriously fascinating, to me, that you could be such an utter hypocrite.
At any rate, I'm not responding to Hawkeye's 'rebuttal', because there is nothing to respond to that hasn't already been addressed. He either A)doesn't answer my claims at all, B)says they're misguided without even remotely explaining why this is the case. Or sometimes, he just repeats himself. This is obvious to anyone that reads his posts. Which is, apparently, everyone other than you. Plenty of people directly stated that they decided to vote him based upon my initial PBPA, so, forgive me if I'm not too concerned here. It's pretty obvious, to me, that Hawkeye is just trying to draw this out and find some minor point to strawman me on. More than anything else, I don't need to further expound on all of this, because everyone already realizes that Hawkeye is scum. He's only still alive because you keep insisting that people claim their role info for no reason.
But I'll tell you what. If Hawkeye gets lynched and somehow, miraculously, shows up as town, I'll take your advice in the future. If he gets lynched and shows up as scum(which he almost assuredly will), I'd appreciate it if, in the future, you don't try to tell me what to do.
I think there's very reasonable evidence that Hawkeye's probably scum. His reactions have been flawed, his role is at worst a wash and at best rather credible godfather material, and Cyan has argued his points rather well (fighting with Grak aside).
However, I feel like AbbeyGargoyle has been hiding behind this wagon to avoid addressing accusations against him of being the SK. I want him to talk before finishing off Hawk. Vote AbbeyGargoyle
@Cyan: I think you have to give Grak at least a little bit of credit. You do have a tendency to, um, sputter, and it never does your case any good. And while I agree that HE7 is most probably scum, a pretty fair number of the things you bring up against him look fallacious. If you're honestly insisting on those points, you have a responsibility (to your own interests) to answer them, rather than just hope that no one will agree with Hawkeye.
Frankly, though, I'd just concede that better than half of your PBPA was badly biased and move on with the actual good points against him, which can be stated in just a couple sentences.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
I'm still following along and I'm still willing to vote HE as soon as the town's call for an AG claim is answered.
I haven't read over all of the back and forth between Cyan and HE, but from what I've read I'm not getting convinced to rethink my future vote. HE"s responses, specifically the two that HE asks everyone to look over, I'm not buying HE"s explanation over. The way I see both those posts is that they're open to interpretation from either viewpoint. And that's something I feel is incriminating. There's no need to hinge a defense on open ended statements and hope that people will believe you.
One thing, I'm curious about. Why is there a need to get AG to claim today? If his claims stinks of SK'ness, is the choice of lynch going to change as a result? Otherwise, why is it not best to wait till tomorrow?
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One thing, I'm curious about. Why is there a need to get AG to claim today? If his claims stinks of SK'ness, is the choice of lynch going to change as a result? Otherwise, why is it not best to wait till tomorrow?
For me, it's because I don't think the HE lynch is all that great and I want to have the full picture before we move forward.
No. I can certify it's not better to wait. And if ZDS and you say the contrary, then it shows that we are not on the same wavelength.
First of all, where was there any mention of ZDS in my post? Secondly, where did I say it was better we wait?
I have to say that your putting words into my post in both of these cases really make me (and only me for those that want to mischaracterize my statements) doubt your motives, Puzzle.
Besides, it's great that you can "certify it's not better to wait." I apparently don't have the same info as you, which is why I was asking the question. I am not as sure of it as some other people are and I wanted to hear opinions.
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[font=georgia]The way Abbey refused to claim is scummy as hell. Hi guy, this is a name-claim we are looking for, our doc outed himself and our cop is dead, what do you think you can pretend to be important ?
The longer that I remain unclaimed, the more powerful my role becomes. As soon as my ability is claimed, it becomes relatively useless. I would give a name claim, but I understood the previous calls to be for a full claim, which everyone knows my thoughts on.
@Cyan: I think you have to give Grak at least a little bit of credit. You do have a tendency to, um, sputter, and it never does your case any good. And while I agree that HE7 is most probably scum, a pretty fair number of the things you bring up against him look fallacious. If you're honestly insisting on those points, you have a responsibility (to your own interests) to answer them, rather than just hope that no one will agree with Hawkeye.
Frankly, though, I'd just concede that better than half of your PBPA was badly biased and move on with the actual good points against him, which can be stated in just a couple sentences.
CP, if the meat of the case against me can be summed up in only a couple of sentences would it be fair to say that this post by AbbeyGargoyle does that adequately?
The strongest point, I feel, in case against HE7 is his voting record. I actually can agree with Cyan that his support of the Kraj lych says nothing about his alignment (and have said that about players for several days) because EVERYONE wants a cult dead.
His reactions to both the loran and atl wagons have enough strength to warrant a vote: Hawkeye7
Look, I have been a part of this type of lengthy PBPA attack and response before. I know that it is tedious and that many players will simply tune it out. The longer the PBPA the more likely it is players will tune it out. This puts the person attacked at a disadvantage for obvious reasons.
I am still working on responding to each point cyan made.
I think that I have clearly shown how in so many of the points Cyan has made that he misinterpreted, omitted and ignored what I actually say. I have also repeated illustrated how cyan refuses to address any legitimate question I put to him regarding his posts.
So, if the real meat of the case against me is contained in AbbeyGargoyle’s summary I would be willing to cut to the chase and address those points.
I will put it to everyone to answer this. Also if there is a point that is valid and not contained in that summary I would appreciate it if they would post it. If not I will finish the entire response by the end of the weekend.
But I'll tell you what. If Hawkeye gets lynched and somehow, miraculously, shows up as town, I'll take your advice in the future. If he gets lynched and shows up as scum(which he almost assuredly will), I'd appreciate it if, in the future, you don't try to tell me what to do.
As I have said so many times during this game Cyan, you have no idea why I posted in the manner that I did. I have also stated directly and indirectly that I did it deliberately and for a reason.
I have omitted the rest of your post because, quite frankly, imo, you are embarrassing yourself. It will become glaringly obvious when I am lynched and it is shown I am town.
Grak stated that he played the way he did to generate reactions. I did the same thing. You’ve seen me do this before and yet you act as though this is something new. I have countless times this game gave you the benefit of the doubt and told you to re-evalute what your interpretation of my posts were.
Yes, I did it in a confrontational, antagonistic and sometimes condescending manner. I admitted that earlier and I said that I was doing it for a reason.
Did you ever think about that and pursue that thought from the perspective that I was telling the truth?
I don’t think so.
As I have been preoccupied with addressing your clueless and distorted PBPA of every one of my posts I have not had a real chance to analyize the results of my posting style.
But for example, look at how Atlseal reacted to me. Particularly to my role claim.
I honestly dislike having to spell out this sort of thing and I even chastised you earlier in the game for Grak being forced to basically spell out exactly what he was doing . By forcing him to spell it out you effectively rendered his tactic useless from then on. My words were apparently wasted on you since you completely missed my point.
There are the “Hoyle tactics” of playing mafia and then there are players who don’t play by Hoyle. I play both ways and will continue to do so.
If I were you, I’d take that righteous foot out of your mouth and get ready to listen to Grak for a while because you are wrong, you have been wrong all game and your refusal to listen to what I have been saying directly to you is a big part of why.
Oh, I fully expect to hear after this that I am now backing away from addressing your PBPA and that I am saying Grak is cleared or a townie. neither of these is correct. I am more then willing to subject the town to the rest of my response to your posts but that may only serve to allow me continue to repeat myself regarding how you missed the mark on analyizing my posts. As for Grak, I see what he did early on as interesting and potentially very effective. I see his abandoning that tactic and the fairly dramatic change in his playing style to be very curious. Yes, you and others force him to spell out what he was doing and render it uless there after, but after that where is the rest of the pro town action that should have replaced it? I have not looked directly at each of his posts, so this is strickly an impression. It is, however something that has been on my mind for a while.
Hey, now you can say i'm hedging my bets too.
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I've actually been preoccupied and haven't veiwed the thread since early Saturday. I hope that everyone other then Cyan will at least allow me to respond to Cyan's masterpiece of logical and deductive reasoning before voting to lynch me. Please. I also hope that everyone other then Cyan will actually read my responses.
Thank you.
Cyan, I see you finally scrounged up the guts to try to actually make a case against me instead of your ineffectual sniping all game long that I'm scummy.
Well, I for one, appreciate you doing as I have asked you more then once to do and I do appreciate how difficult it must have been for you. It's not easy to completely misinterperate and/or misrepresent my posts. Especially as it is clear that you have no idea what I was doing or what I am doing now.
I will post my response to the PBPA shortly. As for a complete claim, well I have already done it. Since I haven't yet read through your PBPA yet, I have to ask, do you think I am lying about what I have claimed? If not it makes no sense to ask me to completely claim. I have already done so. You have my role name and my ability. What more is it you are looking for?
Here, Hawkeye starts in on deriding my PBPA, as well as insulting me personally. A PBPA which he repeatedly called for. This is just the first of many such posts as Hawkeye responds to the case I presented. Considering that Hawkeye has repeatedly stated that he considers me town, and considering that he repeatedly asked for a case to be brought against him, his attitude makes no sense. Unless you come to the conclusion that he's just trying to draw out a fight and slow down the town.
How did I Know about the locations?
How did you not?
Maybe I think like Azrael or maybe I flatter myself that I do. I have said on many occations posted that I play this game intuitively. There are times that I simply know things and I honestly can't explain how I do. It just struck me as a perfect aspect to this game that should be there. As to why Hvir did not pick up on the clues I dropped I can't say. I don't know. I thought I was fairly obvious and direct in trying to get a discussion of the locations going. I directly questioned him about it and I still maintain that if his role is as he described, then he misplayed that part. I did not constantly roleplay as the director. I used the director to frame the post as an episode of the Truman Show and the content of the post to build my unclaimed role claim.
Obviously I have no idea how you know about locations. Why would you even ask me that? This is scummy, because you are clearly trying to make my position look worse by forcing me to admit to not having knowledge that I could not possibly have in the first place.
Why not do what?
Say goofy things like what?
Why don't you ask Azrael why he put all the work he did into designing this game? He has crafted a game that some will not truely appreciate. I wanted to try my best to do his work justice.
Honestly, if I can make someone think about what they are reading and see what deeper meaning there is beyond the obvious then I am happy. I simply have to rely on the ability of players to pick up on what I am trying to tell them. Many players do and I hope that they see some value in it. Some people simply can't or don't.
Anyway, thanks for posting so I can post this first part of my response to your PBPA.
So, what you're saying is that it's okay that you have contributed virtually nothing to this game, because you role-played while do so? Sorry, but I disagree. Essentially, via your roleplaying, you just active-lurked. You managed to post plenty, without ever really saying anything. How is this doing the game justice?
Not meaningless, but it is roleplaying. As I mentioned earlier I had a theory that moving in the game setting would possibly be of importance and this was my first post that talked about the group moving. It also was the start of what I thought was pretty obvious bread crumbing of my role character.
It's meaningless. It's also worth noting that Azrael essentially disabused your theory regarding this roleplaying with a later vote count. And yet, you still lynched Hvir based upon the fact that he didn't pick up on your ridiculous vague clues regarding this. Even though no one else picked up on them either, and multiple people had said as much before you voted him.
2nd attempt to get the idea of moving around out there and possibly discussed. If it was a machanic in the game I wanted to see if anyone would respond before simply blurting out my theory. I will honestly try not to take gratuitis swipes at Cyan for his lack if insight or his blatant misrepresenting my posts.
Here he says I gave “Apparently serious vote on Carrion Pigeons, without even the most remote explanation of it.” now, I ask you , how can you not see why I voted for CP from what I posted?
This is what I posted:
It is obvious that I went through the thread and assigned a numerical rating to each post based on how I viewed the post in relation to it being suspicious or not.
I ask you, does it seem like I voted for CP without the most remote explaination of it?
I think this can hardly be called an 'attempt' at putting forth your theory. In fact, I really don't see where, in that post, that you say anything about your theory about locations. Maybe you can point this out for us. As for voting for CP, nowhere do you explain WHY you voted for him. Saying 'Grak +7, CP -5' means absolutely nothing whatsoever. Assuming that is supposed to be a scale, what is it a scale of? Why did you come to that conclusion? Etc, etc. This is just another example of active lurking on your part. You're acting like you're participating in the game, but it's really just smoke and mirrors. I mean honestly, how can you come down on me for just saying you were scummy all game w/o presenting a major case(something I always intended to do, but was just waiting for the right time), when your apparent idea of 'explaining your suspicions of someone' is :CP -7 = most suspicious person in the game.
Hmmmm, I don’t think I’m reading the same post as you here Cyan. I complimented Raf on a choice post he made questioning Xyre. I continued to build my unclaimed role claim by directly quoting a line from the movie my character is from, I directly asked people in the game what their experience has been with multi votes and that role being non-townie, and I voiced my support for the masons to remain hidden. I know you completely missed my role clue but to characterize this post of mine as meaningless roleplaying and the only thing of note is a minor attempt to discredit CP is simply missing the mark by 2/3’s. Meaning, there where three points made in this post and you either missed or ignored two of them.
I'm not sure why you feel it's important to mention the fact that you complimented Raf. That really doesn't mean anything, especially since, of course, you're not saying what is 'Grade A' about his post anyway. And you can try to spin it all you want, but to me, it seems fairly apparent that asking people if they've seen games where a multi-voter was non-town is an attempt to make CP's role seem less town than it is. This, again, is consistent with your previous attempt at saying CP Was suspicious, without explaining why. Except now, you're just trying to goad other people into making CP's claim less valid. If you don't think his claim made him town, why didn't you simply say as much? And I really don't see why you went through all of this sub-claiming to begin with. Even beyond that, I don't see why you feel the need to continually point this out. We all believe that your role is Truman. Your irrational insistence on mentioning all of these instinces where you breadcrumbed this(especially since breadcrumbing is, at best, a non-tell anyway)
I really must try to be more obvious in what I post. I, again, alluded to my role character by the use of the term risk management in a sarcastic question to DHY that was indeed baiting. But since I had already come out and clearly stated I did not think the Masons should come out and claim, the meaning of that statement was to try to get DHY to come out and clearly state whether or not he thought they should.
Cyan, Did you completely miss the post where I answered the question as to what 816KAZ is? If you did here is the answer I gave. Google it. Again building on the unclaimed role claim for my character.
I'd love for you to point out where you 'gave your opinion' regarding the masons, because I'm not seeing that. I also fail to see how it is pro-town behavior to try to bait someone into giving a particular answer. Why not just directly ask?
At this point in the game I had no Idea Loran was definitely scum. The point the made that I agreed with was valid and I still agree with it. I disagree that the the PBPA that Grak did was as entirely negative as Xyres was. I do think that at this point in the game you had been playing differently and since you had not yet claimed I saw that difference and the valid points I saw in Grak’s PBPA more then enough to justify my voting for you. Frankly, it is only Axe’s confirmation of some of the points of your claim that makes you less of a suspect now.
Why would you even make a statement like 'I had no idea that Loran was scum'. Are we supposed to believe you just because you say so? If you're scum, which is my conclusion, then you absolutely did know that Loran was scum as well. The point is that your interaction here with a known scum was dodgy, which you're being called on. Saying 'I didn't know he was scum' is ridiculous, because obviously you're not going to say anything else. And the PBPA that Grak did, if anything, was vastly MORE negative than Xyre's, because Grak spent at least half of it going out of his way to be insulting. It is blatant hypocrisy to attack Xyre for being negative, but not Grak, just because you wanted to barn him.
Does not make sense to you?
Let me ask you a question Cyan. If this post does not make any sense to you, then how do you know I was being subtle?
You are rightly looking at this post with reading glasses of hindsight but you are not also thinking of what was known at that time in the game. This was the first possible confirmation of a role in the game like mine that did not draw from the Matrix Universe. I believed the claim but not that it cleared Atlseal as a townie. Only that his name claim was probably true.
Just because the post as a whole doesn't make sense, doesn't mean it's not obvious that you're trying to backup atlseal's claim, based upon nothing. If you didn't believe it cleared atlseal, I fail to see why you didn't just say this. Instead, what you did was go along with as much of his claim as had been provided, without remotely trying to get more information from him. This doesn't jive with the knowledge of the game that was available at that time, in my opinion. Also, as scum, it gives you plenty of room to go back, just like you're doing now, and try to wiggle your way out. You've done this all game. The only time you really concretely tied yourself to anything was my wagon, and even then, you mostly just barned someone else's PBPA.
I questioned how an Agent could be town. I voiced encouragement to Spoon, Raf and Xyre leading the discussion at this point of the game.
It was not Atl’s wagon evaporating that I attacked CP for it was the fact that there were two bandwagons Alt’s and Yours Cyan that evaporated at near the same time that CP was lamenting but oddly enough he was not a part of either. He had his vote on Sutherlands. If either of those bandwagons were really of interest to him why did he not put his vote where his mouth was and vote for either? How is it that you have completely misread this post to eliminate yourself from the discussion and how is it that you completely missed what I was really attacking CP for?
What is the point in questioning how an Agent can be town, when we knew, conclusively, that one was town? Again, this comes across to me as active lurking. And I didn't misread the post, it's woefully obvious from CP's post that he is referring to atlseal's wagon because he directly mentions atlseal in his post. Beyond that, as I said, it's fairly obvious that you're just trying to force him into attacking me. His position on atlseal could not have been more plain.
Again, building the unclaimed role claim. I pointed out to Xyre that there was at least one other possibility to the question he was commenting on, what Arim’s post told us about who might have wanted him dead at that point in the game. I did say that CP could have done it to make Atlseal look bad. I stand by this. Yes, in hindsight, with the knowledge we have now that Atlseal was scum this looks bad. It is still possible. It is unlikely but it is possible that one scum was distancing himself from another . I admit it is a long shot and if you want to use my possibly being wrong here to build your case against me then I say you have a board you can build with.
It looks bad regardless of hindsight. It makes no sense that CP would be a multi-voter AND somehow be able to daykill people. It also makes no sense for you to continue trying to throw dirt on CP, without ever providing an actual reason why you were doing so, and particularly without voting him.
I have already stated why I initially thought that Atlseal’s name claim was true. I too had a role outside of the Matrix universe. Here I give more reasons why I thought it was a perfect choice of a role in this game. I say again, this does not mean that the role is town. At this point I did not have atlseal as either town or mafia.
If anything, this explanation only makes you look more scummy, not less so. All you're saying here is that you didn't commit to a real opinion on atlseal, you just stated belief of his claimed name. Which is great for a scum, and terrible for a townie.
Ok, there is a recurring scene in the movie of Truman being stopped in front of various advertising posters for what amounted to product placement commercials. This is a parody of that. I thought it was rather well done.
This second part is what I find very surprising that Cyan could not even pick up on. How did you miss this Cyan?
I speculate a little more openly now on another theory I had about the game and the role playing in it. My role indicated nothing about roleplaying or it’s effect on the game. I come right out and state this. How did you not understand it Cyan?
We knew from the get go that it did have some effect on the game and there were a couple of other players who were roleplaying early on besides myself. As it turns out we now know there is some mechanic that may or may not cause or force a player to roleplay. I have never roleplayed in this game for any other reason then I wanted to.
What does any of this post have to do with anything? Seriously, I don't get it. It's disconcerting, to me, that you spend so much time and effort sub-claiming your role and roleplaying, and so little time actually contributing anything to ongoing events.
No, not meaningless.
This is by far the most obvious unclaimed role claim building post directly quoting the movie and it responded to ZDS’s speculation regarding roleplaying.
See above. It is ridiculous how much time you, by your own admission here, spent building up your own roleclaim. You have done more of that than anything else, which is why I accuse you of actively lurking.
Wow, I am surprised that you caught this Cyan. Earlier in the game, when I said I found CP the most suspicous player in the game and voted for him I also said that the second most suspicious player was a bit of a surprise to me and that I would keep an eye on him. That player is Fade.
You do see why I did not come right out and voice my suspicion of Fade or why I question him regarding why he made the statements he made, right Cyan?
Here, I come out and question points he was making about Arim. Not only that I also comment on a very odd paragraph Fade made and I still stand by it. Fade basically says he is having a hard time digesting the data in this game. Almost as if he wants to build an excuse for why he is not contributing more to the game. I said this was an “unFade” like statement and it is.
Once again Cyan, how could you so completely miss the real point I was making in this post? Especially when I made no effort to hide this one.
Saying 'I also think someone else is suspicious and it's a surprise to me means absolutely nothing'. All that does is gives you room later to make a post exactly like this one, where you try to unduly throw suspicion on someone of your choice, without having to back this up with anything. If anything, Fade's statement that he can't get his head around this game is synonymous with sentiments echoed by at least 5 players in this thread. Yet, I don't see you casting suspicion on anyone else for this. I fail to see the distinction here. I also find it interesting that you accuse him of making a statement to give himself an excuse for something later, since it seems that this is exactly what you have done here.
There are two things that have kept me from voting for Cyan a long time ago. First, the fact that Axe confirmed part of Cyan’s claim and second, and I do not mean to be degrading here, but the fact I have seen Cyan, so many times in the past, be so complete wrong about a player or situation that it is possible that his fixation on me this game could easily just be another example of that.
These two Axe and Cyan are very interesting. I do find both of them to be suspicious and of the two I think it is Axe who I am most interested in analyzing.
I hope that answers your questions. If not, say so and I will try again.
Back to the PBPA response.
EWP: Cyan, you did see my posts responding to the first parts of your PBPA right? I assure you I will continue to do so untill I am done. That is unless you suceed in getting the others to vote for me before I get the chance.
Oh and by the way Cyan, this is the second time you have ignored answering my questions regarding your PBPA.
If you are having too difficult a time coming up with answers just say so and i will direct my questions to the rest of the players in general to speculate on what you meant or misinterpreted or simply missed.
I love this particular bit. What does me being wrong alot in the past(which is a huge ad hom, by the way), have to do with me attacking you now? A person can be wrong regardless of their alignment. And again, I intentionally hadn't responded to your responses yet, which I flatly stated.
Also telling, IMO, is that he directs all of this towards me, but then at the ends takes a pot shot at Axelrod. If you're so suspicious of Axel, why haven't you expressed this earlier today? You tried to goad him for awhile yesterday, while conveniently completely ignoring the building cast against atlseal. Yet today, you had nothing to say. Until now anyway. Again, to me, this just comes across as you wanting to change the subject.
This post is Hawkeye's own detail of his voting record. I'm not posting the whole thing here because the post is huge. I've already explained how hawkeye's assessment of the atlseal wagon is ridiculously misleading. Also misleading/deceptive is how Hawkeye tries to tie my claim to atlseals. For one thing, even when Hawkeye made this post, the botched daykill of Axelrod had already happened, meaning that every aspect of my claim(except for my alignment) is now verified. And of course, Hawkeye trying to compare me to a known scum is a nice touch. Lastly, atlseal presented his claim as a full claim, then just changed it as he went along. I always maintained that there was information to my role that I was not revealing. Why I didn't reveal it should be obvious, now.
Yes, he did list reasons that if he felt were valid then he should have voted for him. He did not, he let the fact that no one else was paying enough attantion to Atlseal to be his justification to turn to another target. This removes the responsibility from him for not casting a vote on Atlseal while still saying that he thinks atlseal maybe a legit candidate.
You are wrong here Cyan, this is not something I did earlier in the game.
This is ridiculous. Just because one person is suspicious of another doesn't mean that they HAVE to vote for them. Did you vote for CP, or fade, or Axel when you were expressing suspicion of them? Clearly you did not. So yes, you absolutely are guilty of the accusation that you make here.
Yes, I wanted more information from you regarding the little information you revealed and I wanted you to go an record as stating a definite piece of general information that possibly would be of help down the road in either confirming or not your claim. You can try to paint this as “fishing” with a negative connotation but I’ll leave that to the rest of the players to decide.
It's great that you try to paint your fishing in some pro-town light. It's still fishing, and was still unnecessary at this juncture.
This is still early in the game and you have not, to this point amassed the long record of avoiding, refusing and ignoring legitimate cases, questions and situations in the game. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt and unvoted to try to lower the level of pressure on you, in the hopes that you would feel more cooperative. This failed. You became even more uncooperative.
Right. Or, like I said, you didn't think the wagon was going anywhere and tried to get away from it. This is fairly consistent with your history in this game. You have made a multitude of shallow attacks on people, quickly abandoning them and looking for someone else when it was obvious that no one was going to go along with you. Conveniently enough, none of said shallow attacks were ever directed at a scum. In the cases of two really obvious scum bandwagons, you completely ignored one, and virtually ignored the other, adding your vote to the wagon at the last minute, when the outcome was inevitable.
????
Maybe you should re-read the post. I did not say Ljustus could be scum. I said that there was a low likelihood that the action Grak was commenting on was a scum tactic, IMO.
It is this type of complete misreading or my posts that makes me question your intentions here Cyan. How can you completely miss so obvious a point?
This is exactly what you said:
Quote from Hawkeye »
I don't know, he's always seemed plenty clever whenever I've been in games with him. If the mafia were able to talk to each other prior to the game it could easily have been a collective plan. If it is a mafia ploy there would have to be some other, unknown ability or result that they hope to achieve for this to pay the surviving members benefits. As it is it does not pay well to try this if he were mafia.
Please explain how that is not trying to promote the possibility that LJustus could be scum? Grakthis said 'he's not clever enough to do this as scum'. You said 'he is plenty clever whenever I've been in games with him'. You went on to further extrapolate about mafia talking prior to the game(something that there is no reason for you to assume would have been possible, since the game started during the day), etc etc. You are clearly implying that Ljustus could be scum here, I can't see how you can possibly deny this.
?????
This is the second post in a row that you misread.
I said that I thought Ljustus would be better then a random lynch or a mislynched townie but I did not think that he should be our lynch choice and that we should continue to look for more suspicious targets. I NEVER said that we should not let Ljustus live. I said that if we could not find a more suspicious target then he should be our fall back lynch for the reason Ljustus himself gave for why the town would gain by him being lynched. I even state that the three players I think are the more suspicious, at this point, are Fade, CP and Cyan.
Can you just not read your own posts? You flatly refer to LJustus as a fall-back lynch. That is pretty obviously saying that we should not let him live. You further extrapolate on that by suggesting 3 investigation targets for him. But one of those targets can only be investigated if LJustus dies in the first place. Honestly, I can't get your argument(s) here. Your statements are here, plain as day, for anyone to read.
Players of the game. PLEASE read my post and read cyan’s analysis of it. Is this really what happened or is my post consistent with what I had been saying and pursuing at that point in the game? I had waited a fair period of time to see if Cyan would address the Case Grak presented against him and based on his ignoring that case I voted for him. A vote in agreement with points in the case and to pressure Cyan to address the case. This is pretty self evident.
I can understand how Cyan would be unable to catch my meaning here. Axelrod, voted for Ljustus with a single phrase, vote: ljustus. I found the fact that he did not comment or post any other information or reasoning to be very unlike Axelrod. I parodied his conciseness by questioning his reason for voting with an even more concise “why?” question.
My point is that 'Why' should be obvious. LJustus specifically asked for people to vote for him, and said that he would get a free investigation upon his death. Then Axelrod votes him. Again, the 'why' here is ridiculously obvious. Your question here to Axel makes no sense. Of course, if you're scum, then you are pinning someone that you know to not be scum to a specific attack on someone else that you know to not be scum. That makes plenty of sense. So, here, your actions ONLY make sense from a scum perspective.
Again, please read my post. I think it is very clear. Ljustus claimed to have a valuable ability that would be of use to the town. An ability that would come into play when he is lynched. Some players then launched a campaign to do just that and lynch Ljustus for little more then the reason to use that ability even though we really did not have a compelling reason to do that at that time. It is obvious that Ljustus wanted to get a consensus that he should be allowed to hammer himself when the time came to lynch him so he could ensure that there was no misinterpretation of what would happen or what we would receive from his investigation. I commented that I thought Axe’s post worked towards making that happen at that time rather then saving the ability for a much more advantageous moment. This concept of saving an extra investigation for a time that could be possible be selected by the town or at least coached to Ljustus so that we maximized it should have been obvious to a player of Axe’s caliber and I found that also odd.
NONE of this is even remotely 'made clear' in the post in question. Nowhere do you say anything about saving the investigation for later when it's benefit can be 'maximized'. Talk about revisionist history. Besides, the concept that you are saying is 'so obvious' is a logical fallacy, because it is unlikely that a better time to willingly lynch a townie will come up beyond Day 1.
I found Axe to, again, have posted in a manner that I considered uncharacteristic. Axe is normally a very thorough player and not one to miss an obvious point. It seemed to me that his list of possibilities left off several obvious ones. I questioned that. When I see some players miss obvious points I have to consider it typical. When I see certain players, Axelrod is one of them, miss obvious points it is not typical and thus worth noting.
The real meat of my post was that I summarized my thoughts about Ljustus and why I was voting for Cyan. Interesting, Cyan missed this large and obvious point.
My point is that you accuse Axelrod of leaving off 'possibilities', but those 'possibilities' are so unlikely that it's obvious why he didn't list them. Beyond that, in your own further explanation, you go out of your way to state that any possiblities that you don't list you left off on purpose. So, why is it that you can do this, but Axelrod cannot? This is egregious hypocrisy.
And I didn't miss the fact that you further explained your vote on me, it just wasn't worth commenting on.
You are spitting hairs here. You also completely, again ignore the main part of this post. I directly, again, explained why you should respond to the case Grak posted against you and I quoted the post you made where you say you don’t know why you said you would address it. The fact remains that for a great deal of time you ignored the case and when repeatedly asked to do so you did say that you would. You then tried to ignore it again and finally said that you would not. How many times over how many posts and time have you refused to answer the case against you? When you said that you would address it , then refused to do so, how long, how many posts and how much time pasted before you finally did respond?
Not only does this response have NOTHING to do with the post that I made, I fail to see what it has to do with anything at all at this juncture. You have pointed out, time and again, that I said I Would respond to Grakthis' PBPA but then didn't. Congratulations, you got me. I honestly felt like the situation with LJustus should be allowed to play out first. People disagreed, so then I responded. Whatever point you're trying to make here seems to be woefully pointless.
Cyan, think about what you are saying here. You have insinuated I am scummy for nearly the entire game. For 80 percent of that time you did not post clear reasons for these insinuations, even though I asked you nearly every time you did it to provide those reasons. Now that you have completed what you, yourself, called a daunting task of doing a PBPA of my then 88 posts. I’m sure it took you a while to compile it. You are trying to use it to prove your point and I am responding with my defense of those points. I have real problems with most of the statements and interpretations you have made regarding my posts and I am including them into my responses. Some of that is in the form of questions to you that you are now openly refusing to answer. You have on at least three occasions urged the group to forgo my response and simply lynch me without reading my rebuttal and here you are openly saying I should stop responding at all.
Sorry, but I will finish this response before the weekend in out and I will also continue to answer any current questions directed to me. Once I am done showing how wrong you are I will then turn to several key points in the game to analyze the posts and to scrutinizing specific players who have come up in my review of the posts you have misrepresented.
By all means continue to try to get me lynched before that happens though.
Good luck.
You have to realize that none of your arguments mean anything to me. In my mind, you are scum. There is a vast amount of evidence to support this, and nothing is going to change my mind on this point. From my perspective, as I have said REPEATEDLY, you are baiting me into this long, drawn out battle in hopes of finding some relatively meaningless point to try and strawman. I already see this happening at certain points in your responses.
As I have said so many times during this game Cyan, you have no idea why I posted in the manner that I did. I have also stated directly and indirectly that I did it deliberately and for a reason.
Of course you are. And of course, you have made no effort to provide a real explanation for this. Considering that you are a mere couple of votes from lynch, it seems to me that, if you actually are/were town, you would be largely more forthcoming than you are being here.
I have omitted the rest of your post because, quite frankly, imo, you are embarrassing yourself.
I'm not embarassing myself at all.
It will become glaringly obvious when I am lynched and it is shown I am town.
Of course it will. This statement is so much WIFOM that it is pointless.
Grak stated that he played the way he did to generate reactions. I did the same thing.
Fascinating how you didn't bring this up before now.
You’ve seen me do this before and yet you act as though this is something new.
The only time I've seen you act in this fashion before, you were scum. I'm not sure what you're getting at here.
I have countless times this game gave you the benefit of the doubt and told you to re-evalute what your interpretation of my posts were.
Benefit of the doubt? What a load of garbage. You just said, earlier TODAY, that the only reason you're not voting me now is because of Axelrod. You could at least be consistent to your own statements.
Yes, I did it in a confrontational, antagonistic and sometimes condescending manner. I admitted that earlier and I said that I was doing it for a reason. Did you ever think about that and pursue that thought from the perspective that I was telling the truth? I don’t think so.
There is no reason for a townie to act in the fashion that you are. And seriously, the crappy attitude aspect of it is the LEAST of your transgressions. Your voting record is abyssmal. Your claim is a non-tell at best, with no apparent town benefit. Your rationale/logic have been horrendous. You have used roleplaying as an obvious smokescreen to avoid real participation. By your own admission, you spent a ridiculous number of posts
As I have been preoccupied with addressing your clueless and distorted PBPA of every one of my posts I have not had a real chance to analyize the results of my posting style. But for example, look at how Atlseal reacted to me. Particularly to my role claim.
I fail to see how this is relevant.
I honestly dislike having to spell out this sort of thing and I even chastised you earlier in the game for Grak being forced to basically spell out exactly what he was doing . By forcing him to spell it out you effectively rendered his tactic useless from then on. My words were apparently wasted on you since you completely missed my point.
Yes, it would be terrible if you were forced to commit to a particular stance. At least, if you're scum, that is the case. The argument that you're using here is ridiculously weak, because A)there is no way to prove it and B)it provides no indication of alignment.
Oh, I fully expect to hear after this that I am now backing away from addressing your PBPA and that I am saying Grak is cleared or a townie. neither of these is correct. I am more then willing to subject the town to the rest of my response to your posts but that may only serve to allow me continue to repeat myself regarding how you missed the mark on analyizing my posts. As for Grak, I see what he did early on as interesting and potentially very effective. I see his abandoning that tactic and the fairly dramatic change in his playing style to be very curious. Yes, you and others force him to spell out what he was doing and render it uless there after, but after that where is the rest of the pro town action that should have replaced it? I have not looked directly at each of his posts, so this is strickly an impression. It is, however something that has been on my mind for a while.
Hey, now you can say i'm hedging my bets too.
Got to love the fact that you tried to preempt the obvious argument against you by listing it yourself. I'm not sure what Grak being cleared as a townie has to do with anything, even though he's not. I also have no idea what you're referring to as 'what he did early on' and what 'I and others forced him to do'. I don't really think Grakthis has done or said anything pro-town since Day 1, but A)that's another case and B)considering what we know now about his role, this should work itself out before too long.
So fine, I responded to all of your responses. I still have no idea why, because you really didn't provide any further explanation of anything, from my mind. If anything, you only seem more scummy now to me than before.
Of course, you'll just call my responses weak, as by my own admission, I am bad at PBPAs. I know that you're hoping that this will all collapse due to inefficiency on my part, but that is not going to happen, no matter how much I have to respond to you saying the same thing, over and over again.
I really hope that, if people actually read all of this(which is highly unlikely, yet another reason that I didn't want to continue all of this), that we can just lynch Hawkeye now and worry about everyone else claiming tomorrow.
I honestly still don't see why all of this information needs to be revealed, and Puzzle's involvement sounds more and more like the stunt he pulled in Trek mafia with each passing post(no offense, Puzzle, I have a great amount of respect for you, but these circumstances are starting to sound similar to me)
IHave you used your ability before ?
If you just answer that, it could be enough for me.
Actually, just answering that from Spoon and RafK too would be enough as a first step.
I just can't wade through all this Hawkeye/Cyan stuff. It's overloading the thread. As a result, I'm looking at other people.
Abbey's claim that his ability is useless if revealed does not inspire me at all. Considering there are only three players who are completely "unrevealed" in any respect left I can't see there being a huge deal of harm in it.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Certainly makes me wonder what kind of ability Abbey has that becomes useless if he claims it....
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I'm agreeing that that AG's statement of "If I claim, I become useless." That smells too much like an excuse to get out of claiming something that would make him look bad.
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Current Soul Collector count: 184
PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
Matrix Mafia Town MVP
Medieval Mafia Mafia MVP
Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
Note to self: check how Spoon reacted to Xyre's claim he could make a townie "untargetable."
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Well, we know you can TARGET him. The question is can he TALK from Limbo.
So be sure to be extremely specific on this... don't just ask if you can bring him into your Favorite 5. Ask him if CM will be able to TALK while in Limbo.
I quoted your post in my question to Az and his response is... he couldn't answer that. Joy.
I really don't get why we're worried about these claims today. Everyone seems to agree that Hawkeye is worth lynching. After said information is revealed, he will still be worth lynching.
Puzzle won't be here tml to clarify what he is talking about if he has been devanillanized.
Note to self: check how Spoon reacted to Xyre's claim he could make a townie "untargetable."
Another note to self: check how Spoon reacted when Alx claimed he couldn't target a specific someone.
After wading through the Cyan/HE's posts, I can say I am willing to support a HE's lynch today.
AG being evasive about claiming at this point of time reeks of scumminess.
@Puzzle: You know what CM told ZDS?
@HE: I believe the main point against you is the way you have reacted during both of loran and atlseal's wagons. Unless you can answer that satisfactorily, which I doubt, you are going to be today's lynch. If you really are town, I would advise you to start the analysis/observations that you have been promising about those other things that have caught your eyes immediately.
Someone else targeted you that night? Are you notified if your ability triggered?
I wasn't, so apparently not.
Quote from Azrael »
14. Puzzle (replacing Charmmaster3125, replacing Sorryguy {who was replaced by Chamber [who has been replaced by Niv]}, replacing Sutherlands, replacing H_C, replacing MJM, replacing Sutherlands)
If Charmmaster has his own role on the replacement list, I think it's safe to say that, uh, 'Niv' does too.
Quote from ZDS »
Spoon, feel free to name claim any time you want.
I'll get on that when AG steps up to the same request.
I really hope that, if people actually read all of this(which is highly unlikely, yet another reason that I didn't want to continue all of this), that we can just lynch Hawkeye now and worry about everyone else claiming tomorrow.
I read though it and I responded to almost all of it.
**
Thank you.
We can’t have a discussion if you simply call me scummy, for much of the game refuse to say why and when you finally do you refuse to respond to my questions or simply dismiss my explanations.
Originally Posted by Hawkeye
I've actually been preoccupied and haven't viewed the thread since early Saturday. I hope that everyone other then Cyan will at least allow me to respond to Cyan's masterpiece of logical and deductive reasoning before voting to lynch me. Please. I also hope that everyone other then Cyan will actually read my responses.
Thank you.
Cyan, I see you finally scrounged up the guts to try to actually make a case against me instead of your ineffectual sniping all game long that I'm scummy.
Well, I for one, appreciate you doing as I have asked you more then once to do and I do appreciate how difficult it must have been for you. It's not easy to completely misinterpreted and/or misrepresent my posts. Especially as it is clear that you have no idea what I was doing or what I am doing now.
I will post my response to the PBPA shortly. As for a complete claim, well I have already done it. Since I haven't yet read through your PBPA yet, I have to ask, do you think I am lying about what I have claimed? If not it makes no sense to ask me to completely claim. I have already done so. You have my role name and my ability. What more is it you are looking for?
Here, Hawkeye starts in on deriding my PBPA, as well as insulting me personally. A PBPA which he repeatedly called for. This is just the first of many such posts as Hawkeye responds to the case I presented. Considering that Hawkeye has repeatedly stated that he considers me town, and considering that he repeatedly asked for a case to be brought against him, his attitude makes no sense. Unless you come to the conclusion that he's just trying to draw out a fight and slow down the town.
**Cyan, I was trying to have a discussion of the points you found scummy about my play. You stonewalled that for 80% of the game. You admit that I repeatedly asked you to respond and you finally did with the PBPA. Put yourself in my position. After asking so many times for a case from an increasingly hostile player would not you be just a little sarcastic when he finally posted one? And when you finally got to read that case you found it to frequently completely ignore important points in many of your posts,
miss the point or meaning of almost every other one? If you say you would not have been sarcastic then you are a better man then I.
Also why does my attitude make no sense? I considered you town based on Axelrod’s support for part of you role claim and also based on the way you reacted to my game play. BUT after a certain point a player of your caliber should have been able to see something other then incomprehensible behavior. I don’t seem to have tipped anyone’s scum bar to a significant degree with these posts of mine but you find not just a few of them as scummy but virtually every single one of them.
Something is wrong with that.
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How did I Know about the locations?
How did you not?
Maybe I think like Israel or maybe I flatter myself that I do. I have said on many occasions posted that I play this game intuitively. There are times that I simply know things and I honestly can't explain how I do. It just struck me as a perfect aspect to this game that should be there. As to why Hair did not pick up on the clues I dropped I can't say. I don't know. I thought I was fairly obvious and direct in trying to get a discussion of the locations going. I directly questioned him about it and I still maintain that if his role is as he described, then he misplayed that part. I did not constantly role-play as the director. I used the director to frame the post as an episode of the Truman Show and the content of the post to build my unclaimed role claim.
Obviously I have no idea how you know about locations. Why would you even ask me that? This is scummy, because you are clearly trying to make my position look worse by forcing me to admit to not having knowledge that I could not possibly have in the first place.
**No it’s not scummy.
You asked me how I knew of the locations, I still think it was an obvious possibility based on all the game set up information we received. I was asking you how you missed that. As it turned out I was right and when Hair came out stating his ability was based on moving to locations, I questioned him on it. If he had mentioned that fact at any point after I had made my repeated requests that we possibly move the group I would have had reason to believe his claim. If I had a role like his and someone had asked about moving I would have at the very least suggested that we might consider that idea. As I said I think Hair miss played this. Since he did not mention anything along these lines I assumed he was lying. I think the whole episode is pretty clear.
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Why not do what?
Say goofy things like what?
Why don't you ask Israel why he put all the work he did into designing this game? He has crafted a game that some will not truly appreciate. I wanted to try my best to do his work justice.
Honestly, if I can make someone think about what they are reading and see what deeper meaning there is beyond the obvious then I am happy. I simply have to rely on the ability of players to pick up on what I am trying to tell them. Many players do and I hope that they see some value in it. Some people simply can't or don't.
Anyway, thanks for posting so I can post this first part of my response to your PBPA.
So, what you're saying is that it's okay that you have contributed virtually nothing to this game, because you role-played while do so? Sorry, but I disagree. Essentially, via your role-playing, you just active-lurked. You managed to post plenty, without ever really saying anything. How is this doing the game justice?
**It’s like being invited to a Halloween costume party and showing up in your regular cloths with a polka dot tie or showing up in a soot suit, polished spats, broad brim hat and a wild green mask. One shows your appreciation for the invite and the other doesn’t.
as for my post not having content. I disagree. Just because you did not or could not see the points I made does not mean they weren’t there. I have tried to do something I normally don’t do and explain, in detail exactly what I was trying to do in each of the responses I have made so far to your PBPA. You have been very vocal in dismissing them as merely restating the post I made. If that is the case then you should have understood the point I made the first time I made it. Sadly you did not and not you have tried to shout down my attempts to explain.
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Not meaningless, but it is role-playing. As I mentioned earlier I had a theory that moving in the game setting would possibly be of importance and this was my first post that talked about the group moving. It also was the start of what I thought was pretty obvious bread crumbing of my role character.
It's meaningless. It's also worth noting that Israel essentially disabused your theory regarding this role-playing with a later vote count. And yet, you still lynched Hair based upon the fact that he didn't pick up on your ridiculous vague clues regarding this. Even though no one else picked up on them either, and multiple people had said as much before you voted him.
**If it were meaningless we would not have other players in the game role playing. There would not have specifically been instructions in the sign up regarding role playing. I had a theory about role playing and I tried to verify it. As for Hair. AGAIN, you have to look at what happened from his perspective. HE, not you, had a role that was directly impacted by moving to locations. He should have been looking for ways to do that or information on how that might happen. I made several direct suggestions that the group possible move to a different location. That it might be good for us to do so. Hair never posted anything that suggested he had even seen my posts. Now if he was suspicious of me then I would have expected him to try to question me or make a case against me if he thought I was scum. He did not. It was not until he was under suspicion as being scum that he brought it up and he did in a manner that looked to me like he was a scum player grabbing at straws to keep from being lynched. That’s why I voted for him and I stand by it.
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2nd attempt to get the idea of moving around out there and possibly discussed. If it was a mechanic in the game I wanted to see if anyone would respond before simply blurting out my theory. I will honestly try not to take gratuities swipes at Cyan for his lack if insight or his blatant misrepresenting my posts.
Here he says I gave “Apparently serious vote on Carrion Pigeons, without even the most remote explanation of it.” now, I ask you , how can you not see why I voted for CP from what I posted?
This is what I posted:
It is obvious that I went through the thread and assigned a numerical rating to each post based on how I viewed the post in relation to it being suspicious or not.
I ask you, does it seem like I voted for CP without the most remote explanation of it?
I think this can hardly be called an 'attempt' at putting forth your theory. In fact, I really don't see where, in that post, that you say anything about your theory about locations. Maybe you can point this out for us. As for voting for CP, nowhere do you explain WHY you voted for him. Saying 'Gram +7, CP -5' means absolutely nothing whatsoever. Assuming that is supposed to be a scale, what is it a scale of? Why did you come to that conclusion? Etc, etc. This is just another example of active lurking on your part. You're acting like you're participating in the game, but it's really just smoke and mirrors. I mean honestly, how can you come down on me for just saying you were scummy all game w/o presenting a major case(something I always intended to do, but was just waiting for the right time), when your apparent idea of 'explaining your suspicions of someone' is :CP -7 = most suspicious person in the game.
**Post grading is something I had done since I started playing mafia. I do know that this practice is done by other players as well. If you don’t do this cyan, you might think about trying it. If you are ignorant of this practice than I can’t defend this post to you, but I have very clearly explained what this post was and why I made it.
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Hamm, I don’t think I’m reading the same post as you here Cyan. I complimented Raff on a choice post he made questioning Byre. I continued to build my unclaimed role claim by directly quoting a line from the movie my character is from, I directly asked people in the game what their experience has been with multi votes and that role being non-townie, and I voiced my support for the masons to remain hidden. I know you completely missed my role clue but to characterize this post of mine as meaningless role-playing and the only thing of note is a minor attempt to discredit CP is simply missing the mark by 2/3’s. Meaning, there where three points made in this post and you either missed or ignored two of them.
I'm not sure why you feel it's important to mention the fact that you complimented Raff. That really doesn't mean anything, especially since, of course, you're not saying what is 'Grade A' about his post anyway. And you can try to spin it all you want, but to me, it seems fairly apparent that asking people if they've seen games where a multi-voter was non-town is an attempt to make Cap’s role seem less town than it is. This, again, is consistent with your previous attempt at saying CP Was suspicious, without explaining why. Except now, you're just trying to goad other people into making Cap’s claim less valid. If you don't think his claim made him town, why didn't you simply say as much? And I really don't see why you went through all of this sub-claiming to begin with. Even beyond that, I don't see why you feel the need to continually point this out. We all believe that your role is Truman. Your irrational insistence on mentioning all of these instances where you bread crumbed this(especially since bread crumbing is, at best, a non-tell anyway)
**When I read a particularly good post, one that makes a particularly pointiest point of a point in a intelligent manner, I like to acknowledge it. With Raff’s post that’s all that was. Read into it what you want to cyan, but sometimes a cigar is only a cigar.
Regarding CP, I was openly suspicious of him and I wanted the opinion of others who had more experience with that particular ability to comment on the likelihood of that type of ability being scum. You seem to miss the fact that after this question I move onto other suspects them CP because the response I got made me reconsider him somewhat.
Gram asked me why the bread crumbing and when I questioned him on it he seemed to realize that there is an obvious answer to this question. Perhaps it is not as obvious as we thought.
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I really must try to be more obvious in what I post. I, again, alluded to my role character by the use of the term risk management in a sarcastic question to DHY that was indeed baiting. But since I had already come out and clearly stated I did not think the Masons should come out and claim, the meaning of that statement was to try to get DHY to come out and clearly state whether or not he thought they should.
Cyan, Did you completely miss the post where I answered the question as to what 816KAZ is? If you did here is the answer I gave. Google it. Again building on the unclaimed role claim for my character.
I'd love for you to point out where you 'gave your opinion' regarding the masons, because I'm not seeing that. I also fail to see how it is pro-town behavior to try to bait someone into giving a particular answer. Why not just directly ask?
**http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2126277&postcount=1559
Cyan, I had been directly asking you, all game to provide answers to questions I asked you and to put forth a case against me. Until very recently it got me now where. By baiting DHY, who at the time I was no’s sure was Town or mafia I was giving him more rope to potentially hang himself then I would have if I had asked him a direct questions or worse a yes or no questions. It was about trying to get a player to go on record and post as much information as possible that could be used to either confirm or incite him later.
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At this point in the game I had no Idea Loran was definitely scum. The point the made that I agreed with was valid and I still agree with it. I disagree that the PBPA that Gram did was as entirely negative as Byres was. I do think that at this point in the game you had been playing differently and since you had not yet claimed I saw that difference and the valid points I saw in Gram’s PBPA more then enough to justify my voting for you. Frankly, it is only Axe’s confirmation of some of the points of your claim that makes you less of a suspect now.
Why would you even make a statement like 'I had no idea that Loran was scum'. Are we supposed to believe you just because you say so? If you're scum, which is my conclusion, then you absolutely did know that Loran was scum as well. The point is that your interaction here with a known scum was dodgy, which you're being called on. Saying 'I didn't know he was scum' is ridiculous, because obviously you're not going to say anything else. And the PBPA that Gram did, if anything, was vastly MORE negative than Byre’s, because Gram spent at least half of it going out of his way to be insulting. It is blatant hypocrisy to attack Byre for being negative, but not Gram, just because you wanted to barn him.
**Cyan, think about what you just said. If “I did not know he was scum” is ridiculous, because I’m not going to say anything else”, then what do you expect me to say? If you are dead set against considering, or letting other consider, the possibility that I am telling the truth, then you have created a no win situation. In your eyes I’m damned if I say what I said, the truth, and I damned if I say anything else because it was not the obvious answer a player in the situation your are trying to create would say.
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Does not make sense to you?
Let me ask you a question Cyan. If this post does not make any sense to you, then how do you know I was being subtle?
You are rightly looking at this post with reading glasses of hindsight but you are not also thinking of what was known at that time in the game. This was the first possible confirmation of a role in the game like mine that did not draw from the Matrix Universe. I believed the claim but not that it cleared Alsea as a townie. Only that his name claim was probably true.
Just because the post as a whole doesn't make sense, doesn't mean it's not obvious that you're trying to backup at seal’s claim, based upon nothing. If you didn't believe it cleared at seal, I fail to see why you didn't just say this. Instead, what you did was go along with as much of his claim as had been provided, without remotely trying to get more information from him. This doesn't jive with the knowledge of the game that was available at that time, in my opinion. Also, as scum, it gives you plenty of room to go back, just like you're doing now, and try to wiggle your way out. You've done this all game. The only time you really concretely tied yourself to anything was my wagon, and even then, you mostly just burned someone else's PBPA.
**Ok, it’s my turn to say you are not making sense to me. I am a player with a non-Matrix character for a role. There have been several players revealed or claimed to have Matrix based roles. Here is a player who claims another non-Matrix role. Think about it. Yes, it would make sense to me that he could be telling the truth about his role because I also had a non-Matrix role. You claim to have a non-Matrix role. Did this not strike you as a possibility as well? That is an interesting point. I will have to go back and look at everyone who has claimed to have a non-matrix role to see how they reacted to the first few non-matrix role claims that came out and the ones that have now been confirmed. They should have a positive or neutral reactions. Possibly with questions to the claimant.
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I questioned how an Agent could be town. I voiced encouragement to Spoon, Raff and Byre leading the discussion at this point of the game.
It was not All’s wagon evaporating that I attacked CP for it was the fact that there were two bandwagons Alt’s and Yours Cyan that evaporated at near the same time that CP was lamenting but oddly enough he was not a part of either. He had his vote on Sutherlands. If either of those bandwagons were really of interest to him why did he not put his vote where his mouth was and vote for either? How is it that you have completely misread this post to eliminate yourself from the discussion and how is it that you completely missed what I was really attacking CP for?
What is the point in questioning how an Agent can be town, when we knew, conclusively, that one was town? Again, this comes across to me as active lurking. And I didn't misread the post, it's woefully obvious from Cap’s post that he is referring to at seal’s wagon because he directly mentions at seal in his post. Beyond that, as I said, it's fairly obvious that you're just trying to force him into attacking me. His position on at seal could not have been more plain.
**So it is undeniable that because CP has voiced regret that the Cyan and Alsea wagons had dissolved and at the same time he was voting for Sutherlands, that he is town? Could this not have, just as easily been a scum players voicing support for two failing bandwagons to gains credibility with no risk and keeping his vote on a player that was also at no risk of being lynched?
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Again, building the unclaimed role claim. I pointed out to Byre that there was at least one other possibility to the question he was commenting on, what Aram’s post told us about who might have wanted him dead at that point in the game. I did say that CP could have done it to make Alsea look bad. I stand by this. Yes, in hindsight, with the knowledge we have now that Alsea was scum this looks bad. It is still possible. It is unlikely but it is possible that one scum was distancing himself from another . I admit it is a long shot and if you want to use my possibly being wrong here to build your case against me then I say you have a board you can build with.
It looks bad regardless of hindsight. It makes no sense that CP would be a multi-voter AND somehow be able to day kill people. It also makes no sense for you to continue trying to throw dirt on CP, without ever providing an actual reason why you were doing so, and particularly without voting him.
**We are all wrong about some players in this game from time to time Cyan. As you will see for yourself, yet again shortly. Some of us are able to admit it when we are. In this case I was wrong about him and I said so.
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I have already stated why I initially thought that Alsea’s name claim was true. I too had a role outside of the Matrix universe. Here I give more reasons why I thought it was a perfect choice of a role in this game. I say again, this does not mean that the role is town. At this point I did not have at seal as either town or mafia.
If anything, this explanation only makes you look more scummy, not less so. All you're saying here is that you didn't commit to a real opinion on at seal, you just stated belief of his claimed name. Which is great for a scum, and terrible for a townie.
**This makes little sense to me. I stand by this response and by my original post.
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Ok, there is a recurring scene in the movie of Truman being stopped in front of various advertising posters for what amounted to product placement commercials. This is a parody of that. I thought it was rather well done.
This second part is what I find very surprising that Cyan could not even pick up on. How did you miss this Cyan?
I speculate a little more openly now on another theory I had about the game and the role playing in it. My role indicated nothing about role-playing or it’s effect on the game. I come right out and state this. How did you not understand it Cyan?
We knew from the get go that it did have some effect on the game and there were a couple of other players who were role-playing early on besides myself. As it turns out we now know there is some mechanic that may or may not cause or force a player to role-play. I have never role-played in this game for any other reason then I wanted to.
What does any of this post have to do with anything? Seriously, I don't get it. It's disconcerting, to me, that you spend so much time and effort sub-claiming your role and role-playing, and so little time actually contributing anything to ongoing events.
****You don’t get it? How much clearer do I have to be?
We were told in the set up that role playing was to be a part of the game. Ok, what would that entail? How would it work? What if players who chose to role play from the start had some effect happen to them? What if some roles benefited from role playing in ways that would become apparent later in the game? What if there were players who had to role play as a form of posting restriction?
All these things played through my mind. I enjoy role playing in some games for various reasons and I decided to try that I was going to role play and I would try to find out if it effected me. It did not. That did not mean that it would not effect others or that someone in the game did not have a role ability that focused on role playing. I expressed some of my thoughts in order to try to coax out a response from other players. Since it was possible I would be tipping off a scum players with this kind of ability I did it gradually and subtly. I also looked for reactions to the role playing discussion.
Now we know that either certain players role played by choice or were forced to. If they were forced to I was right again in a theory I had made about the game and potentially we could learn from this.
To do so we need to go back to each incident of players discussing role-playing. There was a discussion of it early on in the game and see how players reacted to that discussion. We could look act players reacted to my own role playing and we can look at the reactions to those other players who recently appeared to be forced to role play, DYH, Raff and possibly others.
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No, not meaningless.
This is by far the most obvious unclaimed role claim building post directly quoting the movie and it responded to Zeds’ speculation regarding role-playing.
See above. It is ridiculous how much time you, by your own admission here, spent building up your own role claim. You have done more of that than anything else, which is why I accuse you of actively lurking.
**See above. To ignore the fact that this is a mechanic in this game and, at best, there is valuable information to be gained by examining it. At worst we loose nothing by reviewing this.
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Wow, I am surprised that you caught this Cyan. Earlier in the game, when I said I found CP the most suspicious player in the game and voted for him I also said that the second most suspicious player was a bit of a surprise to me and that I would keep an eye on him. That player is Fade.
You do see why I did not come right out and voice my suspicion of Fade or why I question him regarding why he made the statements he made, right Cyan?
Here, I come out and question points he was making about Aram. Not only that I also comment on a very odd paragraph Fade made and I still stand by it. Fade basically says he is having a hard time digesting the data in this game. Almost as if he wants to build an excuse for why he is not contributing more to the game. I said this was an “unmade” like statement and it is.
Once again Cyan, how could you so completely miss the real point I was making in this post? Especially when I made no effort to hide this one.
Saying 'I also think someone else is suspicious and it's a surprise to me means absolutely nothing'. All that does is gives you room later to make a post exactly like this one, where you try to unduly throw suspicion on someone of your choice, without having to back this up with anything. If anything, Fade's statement that he can't get his head around this game is synonymous with sentiments echoed by at least 5 players in this thread. Yet, I don't see you casting suspicion on anyone else for this. I fail to see the distinction here. I also find it interesting that you accuse him of making a statement to give himself an excuse for something later, since it seems that this is exactly what you have done here.
**It maybe synonymous with other players but it is something I had not heard from fade before. When I hear one of the best players I know say, “this is too much for me to figure out” a flag goes up for me. I said so. I had also said that I was suspicious of Fade several times before that. One thing that did stick out for me after I made that initial post was Graces reaction to it. His, wow, I missed that at first but hey you’re right that looks strange post stakes me like some of the posts Alsea made in response to post I made after I claimed and explained why I voted for DYH.
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There are two things that have kept me from voting for Cyan a long time ago. First, the fact that Axe confirmed part of Cyan’s claim and second, and I do not mean to be degrading here, but the fact I have seen Cyan, so many times in the past, be so complete wrong about a player or situation that it is possible that his fixation on me this game could easily just be another example of that.
These two Axe and Cyan are very interesting. I do find both of them to be suspicious and of the two I think it is Axe who I am most interested in analyzing.
I hope that answers your questions. If not, say so and I will try again.
Back to the PBPA response.
EWP: Cyan, you did see my posts responding to the first parts of your PBPA right? I assure you I will continue to do so until I am done. That is unless you succeed in getting the others to vote for me before I get the chance.
Oh and by the way Cyan, this is the second time you have ignored answering my questions regarding your PBPA.
If you are having too difficult a time coming up with answers just say so and I will direct my questions to the rest of the players in general to speculate on what you meant or misinterpreted or simply missed.
I love this particular bit. What does me being wrong allot in the past(which is a huge ad home, by the way), have to do with me attacking you now? A person can be wrong regardless of their alignment. And again, I intentionally hadn't responded to your responses yet, which I flatly stated.
Also telling, IMO, is that he directs all of this towards me, but then at the ends takes a pot shot at Axelrod. If you're so suspicious of Axel, why haven't you expressed this earlier today? You tried to goad him for awhile yesterday, while conveniently completely ignoring the building cast against at seal. Yet today, you had nothing to say. Until now anyway. Again, to me, this just comes across as you wanting to change the subject.
**This is a fair point. I regretted that swipe at you right after I posted it. It did not need to be posted. I am sorry I said it and I apologize Cyan.
The reason I did not go after Axe earlier was because of his role claim. If he was John Conner, then I felt there was a good possibility that he had a role that was proton and possibly significant. His playing in a reserved manner or in a manner that was different then what I had seen from him could very well have been intentional and designed to keep him alive.
By posting only occasional suspicions when I saw them I allowed any scum that might be waiting for an opening to try to get a band wagon going. No one did though. It also worked to try to get axe to react to see if the suspicious action I saw was actually what I thought it was.
This post is Hawkeye's own detail of his voting record. I'm not posting the whole thing here because the post is huge. I've already explained how Hawkeye’s assessment of the at seal wagon is ridiculously misleading. Also misleading/deceptive is how Hawkeye tries to tie my claim to at seals. For one thing, even when Hawkeye made this post, the botched day kill of Axelrod had already happened, meaning that every aspect of my claim(except for my alignment) is now verified. And of course, Hawkeye trying to compare me to a known scum is a nice touch. Lastly, at seal presented his claim as a full claim, then just changed it as he went along. I always maintained that there was information to my role that I was not revealing. Why I didn't reveal it should be obvious, now.
**Cyan, since Axe public ally confirmed your claim I have not questioned any aspect of it other then your alignment. I really don’t doubt that either of you are how you claim to be. I question it you are townies or not. If anyone had been hounding you to reveal any role information that you save been slavishly hiding away for obvious reasons I missed it. I certainly didn’t and I don’t see why you are trying to make such a big deal out of that now.
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Yes, he did list reasons that if he felt were valid then he should have voted for him. He did not, he let the fact that no one else was paying enough attention to Alsea to be his justification to turn to another target. This removes the responsibility from him for not casting a vote on Alsea while still saying that he thinks at seal maybe a legit candidate.
You are wrong here Cyan, this is not something I did earlier in the game.
This is ridiculous. Just because one person is suspicious of another doesn't mean that they HAVE to vote for them. Did you vote for CP, or fade, or Axel when you were expressing suspicion of them? Clearly you did not. So yes, you absolutely are guilty of the accusation that you make here.
**I had voted for CP earlier in the game. I was never luscious enough of Fade to vote for him and I did not want a vote for Axe to be perceived as trying to deflect attention from addressing you or voting for Alsea.
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Yes, I wanted more information from you regarding the little information you revealed and I wanted you to go an record as stating a definite piece of general information that possibly would be of help down the road in either confirming or not your claim. You can try to paint this as “fishing” with a negative connotation but I’ll leave that to the rest of the players to decide.
It's great that you try to paint your fishing in some pro-town light. It's still fishing, and was still unnecessary at this juncture.
**That’s your opinion. In my opinion, it was necessary for me. When I want to get more information to clarify a point I ask for it in the manner I think is most effective. I will continue to do so. You might want to make that down in your list of tells because you can try to cast me as fishing again in the future when I do the same thing.
Quote:
This is still early in the game and you have not, to this point amassed the long record of avoiding, refusing and ignoring legitimate cases, questions and situations in the game. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt and unnoted to try to lower the level of pressure on you, in the hopes that you would feel more cooperative. This failed. You became even more uncooperative.
Right. Or, like I said, you didn't think the wagon was going anywhere and tried to get away from it. This is fairly consistent with your history in this game. You have made a multitude of shallow attacks on people, quickly abandoning them and looking for someone else when it was obvious that no one was going to go along with you. Conveniently enough, none of said shallow attacks were ever directed at a scum. In the cases of two really obvious scum bandwagons, you completely ignored one, and virtually ignored the other, adding your vote to the wagon at the last minute, when the outcome was inevitable.
**Rewriting history only works if those your are trying to fool can’t go back and read what really happened. Anyone interested in seeing how wrong you are on this can go back and actually read my posts instead or what your interpretation of them is.
Quote:
????
Maybe you should re-read the post. I did not say Justus could be scum. I said that there was a low likelihood that the action Gram was commenting on was a scum tactic, IMO.
It is this type of complete misreading or my posts that makes me question your intentions here Cyan. How can you completely miss so obvious a point?
This is exactly what you said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkeye
I don't know, he's always seemed plenty clever whenever I've been in games with him. If the mafia were able to talk to each other prior to the game it could easily have been a collective plan. If it is a mafia ploy there would have to be some other, unknown ability or result that they hope to achieve for this to pay the surviving members benefits. As it is it does not pay well to try this if he were mafia.
Please explain how that is not trying to promote the possibility that Justus could be scum? Gratis said 'he's not clever enough to do this as scum'. You said 'he is plenty clever whenever I've been in games with him'. You went on to further extrapolate about mafia talking prior to the game(something that there is no reason for you to assume would have been possible, since the game started during the day), etc. You are clearly implying that Justus could be scum here, I can't see how you can possibly deny this.
****Ok. Follow me here.
I state that, from my experience with him in prior games, I think Justus is smart.
I state that what Gram was describing “could be possible“, if the mafia could day talk. Something that is very unlikely and that there is no evidence for at that time.
I state that there would rally need to be some other, unknown reason for a mafia player to do what Gram had speculated about Justus doing, because it would be sacrificing a member for a reason we did not know to achieve something that made no sense.
Finally I state that this type of action would not pay if he were mafia.
Please, please tell me how you get that I am saying he is scummy here?
Quote:
?????
This is the second post in a row that you misread.
I said that I thought Justus would be better then a random lynch or a mislynched townie but I did not think that he should be our lynch choice and that we should continue to look for more suspicious targets. I NEVER said that we should not let Ljustus live. I said that if we could not find a more suspicious target then he should be our fall back lynch for the reason Ljustus himself gave for why the town would gain by him being lynched. I even state that the three players I think are the more suspicious, at this point, are Fade, CP and Cyan.
Can you just not read your own posts? You flatly refer to LJustus as a fall-back lynch. That is pretty obviously saying that we should not let him live. You further extrapolate on that by suggesting 3 investigation targets for him. But one of those targets can only be investigated if LJustus dies in the first place. Honestly, I can't get your argument(s) here. Your statements are here, plain as day, for anyone to read.
***A fall back lynch is something that is done only if all other possible avenues have been exhausted. I clearly state that we should pursue other, better targets and exhaust then before we consider looking to lynch Ljustus. I said that clearly in my post and I said so clearly in my response.
AbbyGargoyle is right. Reading is TECH.
Quote:
Players of the game. PLEASE read my post and read cyan’s analysis of it. Is this really what happened or is my post consistent with what I had been saying and pursuing at that point in the game? I had waited a fair period of time to see if Cyan would address the Case Grak presented against him and based on his ignoring that case I voted for him. A vote in agreement with points in the case and to pressure Cyan to address the case. This is pretty self evident.
Quote:
I can understand how Cyan would be unable to catch my meaning here. Axelrod, voted for Ljustus with a single phrase, vote: ljustus. I found the fact that he did not comment or post any other information or reasoning to be very unlike Axelrod. I parodied his conciseness by questioning his reason for voting with an even more concise “why?” question.
My point is that 'Why' should be obvious. LJustus specifically asked for people to vote for him, and said that he would get a free investigation upon his death. Then Axelrod votes him. Again, the 'why' here is ridiculously obvious. Your question here to Axel makes no sense. Of course, if you're scum, then you are pinning someone that you know to not be scum to a specific attack on someone else that you know to not be scum. That makes plenty of sense. So, here, your actions ONLY make sense from a scum perspective.
****Do you REALLY think that, at this point in the game, it was in the interest of the town to lynch a player who had just claimed to be town and that we would get a free investigation from his death? Wouldn’t it be better to keep that free investigation saved for a point when we had a specific good target to maximize the sacrifice of a townie? There was NO compelling reason to not believe Ljustus at that moment and NO compelling reason to lynch him just to use his ability. I wanted to see if Axe had a compelling reason to do this and also to see if he thought Ljustus might be lying.
Again, please read my post. I think it is very clear. Ljustus claimed to have a valuable ability that would be of use to the town. An ability that would come into play when he is lynched. Some players then launched a campaign to do just that and lynch Ljustus for little more then the reason to use that ability even though we really did not have a compelling reason to do that at that time. It is obvious that Ljustus wanted to get a consensus that he should be allowed to hammer himself when the time came to lynch him so he could ensure that there was no misinterpretation of what would happen or what we would receive from his investigation. I commented that I thought Axe’s post worked towards making that happen at that time rather then saving the ability for a much more advantageous moment. This concept of saving an extra investigation for a time that could be possible be selected by the town or at least coached to Ljustus so that we maximized it should have been obvious to a player of Axe’s caliber and I found that also odd.
NONE of this is even remotely 'made clear' in the post in question. Nowhere do you say anything about saving the investigation for later when it's benefit can be 'maximized'. Talk about revisionist history. Besides, the concept that you are saying is 'so obvious' is a logical fallacy, because it is unlikely that a better time to willingly lynch a townie will come up beyond Day 1.
***This is untrue. Day one was now where near being over. There was a definite reason not to lynch him at this moment and to continue the day to look for either a better lynch candidate or to identify a specific target to use the ability on if we were going to fall back to lynching ljustus and to maximize his ability. Ljustus was expressing his desire to be allowed to be the hammering vote on himself when we had done that and it had been decided that we should lynch him and use his ability. The rush to lynch ljustus just to use his ability, at that time, was what I spoke against.
I stand by my post and by my response to it.
Quote:
I found Axe to, again, have posted in a manner that I considered uncharacteristic. Axe is normally a very thorough player and not one to miss an obvious point. It seemed to me that his list of possibilities left off several obvious ones. I questioned that. When I see some players miss obvious points I have to consider it typical. When I see certain players, Axelrod is one of them, miss obvious points it is not typical and thus worth noting.
The real meat of my post was that I summarized my thoughts about Ljustus and why I was voting for Cyan. Interesting, Cyan missed this large and obvious point.
My point is that you accuse Axelrod of leaving off 'possibilities', but those 'possibilities' are so unlikely that it's obvious why he didn't list them. Beyond that, in your own further explanation, you go out of your way to state that any possibilities that you don't list you left off on purpose. So, why is it that you can do this, but Axelrod cannot? This is egregious hypocrisy.
**I never said that I have not done this. I said that in this incidence and in this context, I found that fact that Axe was not more though and did not look at other possibilities in his post to be suspicious. I still do.
I stand by this post and my original one.
And I didn't miss the fact that you further explained your vote on me, it just wasn't worth commenting on.
snap.
Quote:
You are spitting hairs here. You also completely, again ignore the main part of this post. I directly, again, explained why you should respond to the case Grak posted against you and I quoted the post you made where you say you don’t know why you said you would address it. The fact remains that for a great deal of time you ignored the case and when repeatedly asked to do so you did say that you would. You then tried to ignore it again and finally said that you would not. How many times over how many posts and time have you refused to answer the case against you? When you said that you would address it , then refused to do so, how long, how many posts and how much time pasted before you finally did respond?
Not only does this response have NOTHING to do with the post that I made, I fail to see what it has to do with anything at all at this juncture. You have pointed out, time and again, that I said I Would respond to Grakthis' PBPA but then didn't. Congratulations, you got me. I honestly felt like the situation with LJustus should be allowed to play out first. People disagreed, so then I responded. Whatever point you're trying to make here seems to be woefully pointless.
***Wow. This is incredibly weak.
So much so that I will only say look act the actual posts and judge for yourself folks. I stand by my original posts, all of the many that asked for Cyan to address that PBPA and why he refused to. I also stand by my response.
Quote:
Cyan, think about what you are saying here. You have insinuated I am scummy for nearly the entire game. For 80 percent of that time you did not post clear reasons for these insinuations, even though I asked you nearly every time you did it to provide those reasons. Now that you have completed what you, yourself, called a daunting task of doing a PBPA of my then 88 posts. I’m sure it took you a while to compile it. You are trying to use it to prove your point and I am responding with my defense of those points. I have real problems with most of the statements and interpretations you have made regarding my posts and I am including them into my responses. Some of that is in the form of questions to you that you are now openly refusing to answer. You have on at least three occasions urged the group to forgo my response and simply lynch me without reading my rebuttal and here you are openly saying I should stop responding at all.
Sorry, but I will finish this response before the weekend in out and I will also continue to answer any current questions directed to me. Once I am done showing how wrong you are I will then turn to several key points in the game to analyze the posts and to scrutinizing specific players who have come up in my review of the posts you have misrepresented.
By all means continue to try to get me lynched before that happens though.
Good luck.
You have to realize that none of your arguments mean anything to me. In my mind, you are scum. There is a vast amount of evidence to support this, and nothing is going to change my mind on this point. From my perspective, as I have said REPEATEDLY, you are baiting me into this long, drawn out battle in hopes of finding some relatively meaningless point to try and strawman. I already see this happening at certain points in your responses.
****Cyan, think about this. If you had responded to any of the first five times I had asked you to post why you “found something suspicious about that post by HAWKEYE7” but did not say what it was. We might not have had to endure this game long sniping by you or this grueling exchange. I could have explained what I meant at that time. We. Possibly, could have moved on. You did not do this. You deliberately ignored those requests.
If you had responded to my next 10 requests that you say why you thought any of my posts were suspicious but did not offer a specific reason, we might also have avoided this.
If you had responded to any of the near dozen requests for you to respond to Graks’ PBPA of you or to not have backed down and refused to honor your statement that you would answer that PBPA, we could have possibly have avoided this.
This entire situation is a result of your game long stonewalling not me baiting you. I would never had to do it or try to shame you into backing up your words if you had stood up and been accountable at a dozen different points earlier in the game.
don’t cry about the spilled milk when you spilled it.
Quote:
As I have said so many times during this game Cyan, you have no idea why I posted in the manner that I did. I have also stated directly and indirectly that I did it deliberately and for a reason.
Of course you are. And of course, you have made no effort to provide a real explanation for this. Considering that you are a mere couple of votes from lynch, it seems to me that, if you actually are/were town, you would be largely more forthcoming than you are being here.
***A technique is a technique, and if you had not stonewalled all game I probably would not have done it as much or targeted you.
And I agree with you.
I don’t want to continue this exchange either.
I did not want to even post this response except that I was afraid you would simply say I was lying.
I will only say this once more. If you had addressed the points against you as they were made, we would most likely not be where we are. If you had answered the questions as they were asked, we would most likely not be here.
For a townie, if you are going to be lynched it is essential that you try to make sure that you maximize the amount of useful information that can be drawn from your lynch.
As it is I’m fine with being today’s lynch as long as it does not put us too close to lynch or loose. In which case, I regret that those town players who have witnessed me in the grips of writers madness did not step in and talk me off the ledge before this.
Clearly, I can’t be trusted to stop myself once the madness takes hold and there’s blood in the water.
Sorry.
I really don’t think that my ability will have any impact on the game since the apparent demise of the cult.
So I’m effectively a townie with an ability that probably won’t help the town any more.
@HE: I believe the main point against you is the way you have reacted during both of loran and atlseal's wagons. Unless you can answer that satisfactorily, which I doubt, you are going to be today's lynch. If you really are town, I would advise you to start the analysis/observations that you have been promising about those other things that have caught your eyes immediately.
I have already started. It is very interesting how scum react to me when I play as I did early.
It follows a pattern.
It is also very interesting how they react to an exchange like the one Cyan and I have engaged in.
Say for example Cyan is a townie, what would a typical mafia player do when two townies are ripping into each other?
There are also several other game events that need to be looked into as well as the known scum interplay.
Give me till Tuesday night to do this and post anything I come up with.
I have family from out of state in visiting this weekend, which will take away from analysis time.
If I finish before that I'll post what I have.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
RELAPSED MAFIA JUNKIE
W – 33, L – 19, Broke Games - 9
Calvin & Hobbs Mafia, Mafia MVP
X-Men Mafia Town MVP
Simpson's Mafia - best use of character
Mtgnews Mafia Mafia - Town Madman
Mythos Mafia: the Dunwich Massacre Town MVP
English Literature Mafia Town MVP
Best Role-Playing Sin City Mafia
Werewolf Mafia - Mafia MVP
Doctor Mafia - Mafia MVP
Mafia: Escape from the Cylons - Town MVP
Lost Mafia - Co SK Winner with Kops
Random Mafia 3 - Town MVP
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All of this post just reads to me as: I'm just looking for an excuse to not have to respond to all of this. The shoe is on the other foot now, eh, Hawkeye? You always said you'd respond if someone brought a case against you. Now I brought a case against you, and you're just trying to weasel out of responding. Seems like you determined that I was scum when I did something similar. How is it any different for you?
I really don't see why Hawkeye continues to live. We're basically not talking about anything as a town, and he continues to act in the same scummy fashion that he has for days.
I appreciate this reasonable approach. I will continue to work on my complete response to Cyan and will post it when it is done. In the mean time lets also deal with the other issues as well.
Let me address my role first and then my voting record.
CP what is unlikely and incomprehensible about this role? We have several other roles in the game that do not draw from the Matrix Universe
2. Hvirfilvindr, Alice, Townie Reflector. Town
5. DYH, Peter Silberman, Townie Shrink. Town
9. Atlseal, The Chesire Cat, Mafia Emoter. Mafia
Each of these characters is taken from a source that deals in a fundemental way with the nature of reality as humans see it. Truman Burbank is the main character of the Truman Show. A movie that does exactly that but from two distinctly different view points. First from the view point of the audience, show director and his staff. And secondly, from the singular point of view of Truman, the main character of the movie. I had, honestly, never seen the movie before this game and have to thank Azrael for introducing me to it. It is a fascinating exercise in perspective and I think the character fits very well into the theme of this game. As for my ability, that is a question that I cannot completely answer yet. I can select a player and make then change their avatar to the avatar of my choice. At this point in the game I am not sure how much use my ability will be as I suspect it was designed to possibly help deal with the cult and rampant Agent Smith avatar use. I could be wrong and it could be useful for dealing with some other ability but it has not shown itself yet.
I don’t know if it is pertanent but my win condition, slightly paraphrased is “the mafia must die” with mafia replacing another word.
There are two things that have kept me from voting for Cyan a long time ago. First, the fact that Axe confirmed part of Cyan’s claim and second, and I do not mean to be degrading here, but the fact I have seen Cyan, so many times in the past, be so complete wrong about a player or situation that it is possible that his fixation on me this game could easily just be another example of that.
These two Axe and Cyan are very interesting. I do find both of them to be suspicious and of the two I think it is Axe who I am most interested in analyzing.
I hope that answers your questions. If not, say so and I will try again.
Back to the PBPA response.
EWP: Cyan, you did see my posts responding to the first parts of your PBPA right? I assure you I will continue to do so untill I am done. That is unless you suceed in getting the others to vote for me before I get the chance.
Oh and by the way Cyan, this is the second time you have ignored answering my questions regarding your PBPA.
If you are having too difficult a time coming up with answers just say so and i will direct my questions to the rest of the players in general to speculate on what you meant or misinterpreted or simply missed.
Calvin & Hobbs Mafia, Mafia MVP
X-Men Mafia Town MVP
Simpson's Mafia - best use of character
Mtgnews Mafia Mafia - Town Madman
Mythos Mafia: the Dunwich Massacre Town MVP
English Literature Mafia Town MVP
Best Role-Playing Sin City Mafia
Werewolf Mafia - Mafia MVP
Doctor Mafia - Mafia MVP
Mafia: Escape from the Cylons - Town MVP
Lost Mafia - Co SK Winner with Kops
Random Mafia 3 - Town MVP
CP I just realized I forgot to address the voting record part of your post. I did not keep a record of all my posts so i will scan through Cyan's PBPA to collect them and I will address them shortly.
Calvin & Hobbs Mafia, Mafia MVP
X-Men Mafia Town MVP
Simpson's Mafia - best use of character
Mtgnews Mafia Mafia - Town Madman
Mythos Mafia: the Dunwich Massacre Town MVP
English Literature Mafia Town MVP
Best Role-Playing Sin City Mafia
Werewolf Mafia - Mafia MVP
Doctor Mafia - Mafia MVP
Mafia: Escape from the Cylons - Town MVP
Lost Mafia - Co SK Winner with Kops
Random Mafia 3 - Town MVP
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It's like the Great Wall of mafia claims.
I could see it potentially being part of a larger role, like Xyre said, but on its own, it's just nonsensical.
Mafia MVP BM Mafia
Mafia MVP Matrix Mafia
If your behavior were typical scum behavior, I wouldn't have posed it as a question to the town. I'd have made it an attack and I'd have voted you.
The reason I didn't ask YOU is because I know what your answer will be, regardless of your alignment.
CP http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2079144&postcount=193
The reasons behind my vote and the suspicion I have for CP is his early, repeated fence sitting and non-commital game play.
Cyan http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2089467&postcount=595
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2096433&postcount=863
Cyan http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2098416&postcount=940
I think that the following posts adequately explain what my thinking at the time was for voting Cyan.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2100795&postcount=1038
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2100916&postcount=1046
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2103078&postcount=1105
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2103726&postcount=1118
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2105232&postcount=1179 it is interesting how similar Cyan’s and Atlseal’s claims both mutated to make them seem more valuable to the town.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2105232&postcount=1179
Unvote Cyan http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2111551&postcount=1365
Hvir
This is the first post I questioned Hvir in regarding locations.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2112697&postcount=1405
This is a more complete explaination of why I thought what I thought and why I voted for Hvir.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2114777&postcount=1476
Here is a very complete explaination of why I voted for Hvir. I stand by every word of it.
Kraj
Based on the investigation result posted here
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2125724&postcount=1515
I voted for kraj in this post.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2126424&postcount=1574
I had waited for Kraj to post a response and after it voted. Appearently my vote cut off a discussion that was working towords generating a general opinion whether or not the other mason should reveal himself. Something I had been on the record as being against and frankly there was no compelling reason, imo, for them to have done so at that time. Since I am being scrutinized now through Cyan’s PBPA by examining my posts with 20/20 hindsight I think it is fair to say that I was correct in this. There was no reason to try to pressure the masons to reveal themselves that early.
DYH
This post is the most complete post that explains my reasons for my case for DHY
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2186715&postcount=2440
My role claim
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2186715&postcount=2440
Which is the basis for my case against DYH
Atlseal
My first post stating my intention to vote for atl.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2196381&postcount=2581
My in game posted vote for Atl
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2200803&postcount=2637
My PM header information copied from the PM I sent to Azrael voting for Atl
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2206999&postcount=2731
To summarize
I have voted for CP based on early noncommitted play and fense sitting. (yet to be proven right or wrong on him)
I voted for Cyan for well documented reasons. (yet to be proven right or wrong on him)
I voted for Hvir for reasons regarding his role and lack of response to my repeated hints and questions about locations. ( I was wrong about Hvir)
I voted for Kraj based on the investigation by Atlseal. (I was correct about him)
I pressured DYH with a case based on my role information, wording of DYH posts that I directly and repeatedly questioned and his use of the Agent Smith Avatar. (I was wrong about him)
I voted for Atlseal based on the mutating nature of his role and Xyre’s catching him in a lie. (I was right about him.)
In all honesty I was undecided about Loran at the time he was lynched and that is why I did not vote for him.
Just for reference, here are the votes at the point of days end or just prior to days end.
This is a list of the players who posted that they voted for Atlseal in the order in which they claimed it.
ATLSEAL: , Puzzle, HAWEYE7, Axelrod, AbbeyGargoyle, Alx2, Vampyr, ZDS, CP, Cyan, Fadeblue, Spoon, Grakthis
Calvin & Hobbs Mafia, Mafia MVP
X-Men Mafia Town MVP
Simpson's Mafia - best use of character
Mtgnews Mafia Mafia - Town Madman
Mythos Mafia: the Dunwich Massacre Town MVP
English Literature Mafia Town MVP
Best Role-Playing Sin City Mafia
Werewolf Mafia - Mafia MVP
Doctor Mafia - Mafia MVP
Mafia: Escape from the Cylons - Town MVP
Lost Mafia - Co SK Winner with Kops
Random Mafia 3 - Town MVP
Ok. Noted. >_>
Also, I received a reply from Az with regards to my previous question of whether I could specifically target those in Limbo. He said I may attempt to, with special emphasis on the term 'attempt'.
It doesn't really make sense with regards to 7b. Any thoughts on this?
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
Dagger- that's what Az is like, man, it's an excellent magical mystery tour. "Yes" is like, not in his vocarobulariat.
@Hawkeye: Just posting final vote counts doesn't mean anything. Any scum can hop on a bandwagon, even of their scum buddy, when they realize that the person is going down. Atlseal is a prime example of this, in your case. You virtually ignored all attacks on him, until it was obvious that he was going down, then you claim to have voted him. It's disappointing that you're trying to misrepresent this and make yourself look better here.
RafK did post that he was voting Atlseal. Also, I was the first person to vote atlseal, almost immediately after the vote fog was put into effect. This is easily referenced by the fact that RafK *****ed at me for 'opportunism'. And CP has maintained constant suspicion of atlseal throughout the entire game, so his not immediately stating his vote of atlseal means nothing. Again, it looks like you're just trying to make yourself look good there because you were the 'second' vote on atlseal.
Every post that Hawkeye makes is just more and more misrepresentation. This is getting pretty silly.
I wonder which of the above Hawkeye is referencing? If the latter (as I suspect), I have to agree with Cyan that the argument that HE7 was one of the first on the "bandwadon" holds much water. The flurry of people claiming to have voted at the end of the day was merely bookkeeping for what had already become a foregone conclusion.
@HAWKEYE7: if you want to show that your voting record has been any good, it would be nice if we could see some enthusiasm for the votes which you turned out to be "right" about. Barring that, I'd even take an active defense of either loran or atl at any point as evidence of a sort in your favor; at least it would mean, if you were town, that you valued expressing worthwhile opinions over your appearance and who you were linked to. Heck, I'd even take a defense of anyone as a demonstration of that point, to a degree. As it is, it looks plenty like you want to avoid being linked to people who might look scummy. You claim to have been "undecided" on loran, and basically totally ignored atlseal until the end of the day, and that just looks bad.
Mafia MVP BM Mafia
Mafia MVP Matrix Mafia
I'm gonna Vote: Puzzle because he's been stalling for 2 days now hoping we lynch someone while he's gone and I'm not having it.
I'd be willing to put a vote on HE7 if that's what it ends up taking to move things along.
As far as I know, no one has really gone back and looked close at altseal's interactions with every player. This is because the thread is so enormous that the time this would take is prohibitive. But 2 scum dead means we ought to have 2 points of reference in terms of reads on other players, and hopefully be twice as accurate.
My "let's figure out who the SK is" was me being lazy in a way, because that's something I could do without reviewing the whole thread. With Grak revelations and the attempted shooting today, now I think that the group of
1. Spoon
2. Rafaelk
7. Abbeygargoyle
Has best odds. In fact, with Raf role-playing as Keanu from Bill and Ted (as opposed to Keanu from The Matrix) he may be less likely to be SK as well. I wouldn't quite envision that role as one which goes around shooting people. Could still be scum, of course, but
maybe not SK kind of scum. Yes, I know that this is not the best reason to excuse someone from being SK.
Spoon being a gimick account is also a point in his favor for not being SK. That was an account that was bound to draw a bit of attention just for being a gimmick. SK is hard enough to win as without making it a role that draws attnetion to itself.
Brings me back to Abbey the complete blank. Best odds of SKness from where I'm sitting.
Agree we should wait for Puzzle, though. Just in case he does have relevant info to spill.
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You really need to tell us what C_M might have been talking about.
I'm fine with making Abbey and Spoon claim first, but you'll need to spill the beans after that.
Something about your role is not sitting right with me.
Vote: Abbey till he roleclaims.
We either need to massclaim, or lynch HE7.
If there's a real chance that this outing of information will catch the SK, then of course that's great..but do we really think that will happen?
You don't mind if I call you Puzz? Only it rhymes with fuzz, and the fuzz are totally bogus, so I can totally undestand why you wouldn't want to be called Puzz, man.
I will post again tonight with more. This section contains some very interesting examples of attempted bias or complete misinterpretation by Cayn. Please look over the posts and the analysis closely and decide for yourselves.
Yes, he did list reasons that if he felt were valid then he should have voted for him. He did not, he let the fact that no one else was paying enough attantion to Atlseal to be his justification to turn to another target. This removes the responsibility from him for not casting a vote on Atlseal while still saying that he thinks atlseal maybe a legit candidate.
You are wrong here Cyan, this is not something I did earlier in the game.
Yes, I wanted more information from you regarding the little information you revealed and I wanted you to go an record as stating a definite piece of general information that possibly would be of help down the road in either confirming or not your claim. You can try to paint this as “fishing” with a negative connotation but I’ll leave that to the rest of the players to decide.
Try, try again. As you have so many times in this game Cyan, when asked a specific question or confronted with a case you needed to respond to you ignored my question. I tried to hold your feet to the fire and get it answered. I’m still trying to do that. You still have not answered any of the questions I have posed to you regarding you PBPA points. I suppose if you don’t want to or cannot defend a weak or completely wrong point, it is best to avoid answering it and try to bury it in posts urging people to rush to lynch the person making the questions.
This is still early in the game and you have not, to this point amassed the long record of avoiding, refusing and ignoring legitimate cases, questions and situations in the game. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt and unvoted to try to lower the level of pressure on you, in the hopes that you would feel more cooperative. This failed. You became even more uncooperative.
????
Maybe you should re-read the post. I did not say Ljustus could be scum. I said that there was a low likelihood that the action Grak was commenting on was a scum tactic, IMO.
It is this type of complete misreading or my posts that makes me question your intentions here Cyan. How can you completely miss so obvious a point?
?????
This is the second post in a row that you misread.
I said that I thought Ljustus would be better then a random lynch or a mislynched townie but I did not think that he should be our lynch choice and that we should continue to look for more suspicious targets. I NEVER said that we should not let Ljustus live. I said that if we could not find a more suspicious target then he should be our fall back lynch for the reason Ljustus himself gave for why the town would gain by him being lynched. I even state that the three players I think are the more suspicious, at this point, are Fade, CP and Cyan.
Look, I know that reading these responses are tedious but I urge everyone to look at these last two posts critically and see if cyan is interpreting my posts or misrepresenting my posts.
So was your question, which you directed to the town, not me, a rhetorical question? If you know what my response, regardless or my alignment would be, then wouldn’t you know what most of the rest of the town’s responses would be?
I must have missed it. Please feel free to amend the list and add your name where it goes. Thanks Dude.
look you can dismiss my vote for Atlseal or when I voted for him if you want. The facts of when I did and that I did are there in the posts and when I am lynched it will be confirmed. it will also be obvious that there is an effort to marginalize this being done on the part of some players and that should be questions as to why.
What, exactly, do you mean by "if you want to show that your voting record has been any good, it would be nice if we could see some enthusiasm for the votes which you turned out to be "right" about." If I was right , I was right, just as any other player. If I was wrong, I was wrong, also as with any other player. I don't understand what you mean by enthusiasm.
As for who I have been linked to and why. CP you hit upon an interesting point. a very interesting point. After I am lynched that should be scrutinized very closely. It will be seen that I am town. that I spoke the complete truth and I posted in a particular manner for most of the game. look at how specific players reacted to me.
I will elaborate more on this just before I am lynched. it is very important.
I would have voted for him a long time ago. As I go through his PBPA I see many completely wrong interpretations of the things I wrote. I can understand how someone would not agree with a point I made but Cyan is either completely misreading many of my posts or deliberately distorting them. Yes I would vote for him now if not for Axe’s support for parts of his claim.
Cyan, I am responding to the points of the PBPA you made and since I disagree I have questions on many of them. I have posted those questions and will continue to do so. I as you again to answer then. Honestly, if you are confident that I am scum and in the validity of the points you have made why don’t you answer them. If you are right in your case you will only make your case stronger and make me look scummier by directly and thoughtfully responding to my questions. It will clear up the meaning of your points and expose any deception on my part. Why would you not take advantage of that to rid the game of a player you have all game called scummy?
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HE7 has done nothing to convince me that he isn't scum. I could definitely see Truman as scum. Half of the movie is about his attempt to escape an alternate reality that the show creates and he grows to hate. Shades of the Kid anyone? Vote stands.
Thanks for posting after me AG.
Tell me what specifically do you find suspicous about me?
Please be specific and as detailed as possible.
Next installment of response to PBPA
Players of the game. PLEASE read my post and read cyan’s analysis of it. Is this really what happened or is my post consistent with what I had been saying and pursuing at that point in the game? I had waited a fair period of time to see if Cyan would address the Case Grak presented against him and based on his ignoring that case I voted for him. A vote in agreement with points in the case and to pressure Cyan to address the case. This is pretty self evident.
Again, PLEASE read my post and then this analysis to it. He says this in response to my asking him again to address the case against him.
I’m on record as being suspicious of him, grak makes the extensive case against him, he ignores it he get’s repeatedly asked to address it and he now refuses. I stand by my post and say that this analysis of his is just wrong and spin.
I can understand how Cyan would be unable to catch my meaning here. Axelrod, voted for Ljustus with a single phrase, vote: ljustus. I found the fact that he did not comment or post any other information or reasoning to be very unlike Axelrod. I parodied his conciseness by questioning his reason for voting with an even more concise “why?” question.
Again, please read my post. I think it is very clear. Ljustus claimed to have a valuable ability that would be of use to the town. An ability that would come into play when he is lynched. Some players then launched a campaign to do just that and lynch Ljustus for little more then the reason to use that ability even though we really did not have a compelling reason to do that at that time. It is obvious that Ljustus wanted to get a consensus that he should be allowed to hammer himself when the time came to lynch him so he could ensure that there was no misinterpretation of what would happen or what we would receive from his investigation. I commented that I thought Axe’s post worked towards making that happen at that time rather then saving the ability for a much more advantageous moment. This concept of saving an extra investigation for a time that could be possible be selected by the town or at least coached to Ljustus so that we maximized it should have been obvious to a player of Axe’s caliber and I found that also odd.
I found Axe to, again, have posted in a manner that I considered uncharacteristic. Axe is normally a very thorough player and not one to miss an obvious point. It seemed to me that his list of possibilities left off several obvious ones. I questioned that. When I see some players miss obvious points I have to consider it typical. When I see certain players, Axelrod is one of them, miss obvious points it is not typical and thus worth noting.
The real meat of my post was that I summarized my thoughts about Ljustus and why I was voting for Cyan. Interesting, Cyan missed this large and obvious point.
You are spitting hairs here. You also completely, again ignore the main part of this post. I directly, again, explained why you should respond to the case Grak posted against you and I quoted the post you made where you say you don’t know why you said you would address it. The fact remains that for a great deal of time you ignored the case and when repeatedly asked to do so you did say that you would. You then tried to ignore it again and finally said that you would not. How many times over how many posts and time have you refused to answer the case against you? When you said that you would address it , then refused to do so, how long, how many posts and how much time pasted before you finally did respond?
I will continue to work on responding to the PBPA while also addressing current topics directed to me. I am also coming up with some specific ideas as to events in the game and people I will be looking directly at, as a result of reviewing all these posts.
More to come.
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See Post 3030. Reading comprehension is tech.
Cyan, I realize you're probably town, but this attitude does NOTHING to help us. This is exactly what you got attacked by me at the beginning and exactly why you were forced to roleclaim and even then almost lynched till Axelrod saved you.
You make weak arguments, you refuse to back them up, you make unfounded accusations and claims and you generally flail around.
If you want to help the town, stop it. Make a case, argue it, argue back when he refutes something. Don't just attack HIM and then refuse to address his points.
You cannot win at maffia like this. No matter what your alignment.
Cyan, think about what you are saying here. You have insinuated I am scummy for nearly the entire game. For 80 percent of that time you did not post clear reasons for these insinuations, even though I asked you nearly every time you did it to provide those reasons. Now that you have completed what you, yourself, called a daunting task of doing a PBPA of my then 88 posts. I’m sure it took you a while to compile it. You are trying to use it to prove your point and I am responding with my defense of those points. I have real problems with most of the statements and interpretations you have made regarding my posts and I am including them into my responses. Some of that is in the form of questions to you that you are now openly refusing to answer. You have on at least three occasions urged the group to forgo my response and simply lynch me without reading my rebuttal and here you are openly saying I should stop responding at all.
Sorry, but I will finish this response before the weekend in out and I will also continue to answer any current questions directed to me. Once I am done showing how wrong you are I will then turn to several key points in the game to analyze the posts and to scrutinizing specific players who have come up in my review of the posts you have misrepresented.
By all means continue to try to get me lynched before that happens though.
Good luck.
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Best Role-Playing Sin City Mafia
Werewolf Mafia - Mafia MVP
Doctor Mafia - Mafia MVP
Mafia: Escape from the Cylons - Town MVP
Lost Mafia - Co SK Winner with Kops
Random Mafia 3 - Town MVP
Also, it's incorrect to say that my arguments against Hawkeye are weak or unfounded. Apparently plenty of people agree with me. Enough so that Hawkeye is 2 votes from lynch. And he's really not making any points anyway. He's repeating everything that he said the first time. And before that, all he could say was 'that wasn't what I meant', which stating anything at all. His entire posting history for this game has been nothing but a smokescreen, and his latest posts are more of the same.
Furthermore, I don't need advice from you as to how to play the game of mafia. If my only options for playing mafia were A)play like Grakthis or B)never read a mafia post again, I would quit without hesitation. You are, by far, the least useful and least enjoyable player that I have experienced, ever. Hell, just today you outed yourself for no reason, when you could have easily clarified all of that privately. Who are you to tell me how to play the game of mafia? And lastly, statements like 'you cannot win at mafia like this' are absolutely and utterly useless. I have been on the winning team of the game of mafia far, far more often than not. Which means absolutely nothing anyway, because sometimes you play a huge part in your teams victory, and sometimes you just suck. Sometimes, you do a great job while you're alive, but then die and your team blows it. It's seriously fascinating, to me, that you could be such an utter hypocrite.
At any rate, I'm not responding to Hawkeye's 'rebuttal', because there is nothing to respond to that hasn't already been addressed. He either A)doesn't answer my claims at all, B)says they're misguided without even remotely explaining why this is the case. Or sometimes, he just repeats himself. This is obvious to anyone that reads his posts. Which is, apparently, everyone other than you. Plenty of people directly stated that they decided to vote him based upon my initial PBPA, so, forgive me if I'm not too concerned here. It's pretty obvious, to me, that Hawkeye is just trying to draw this out and find some minor point to strawman me on. More than anything else, I don't need to further expound on all of this, because everyone already realizes that Hawkeye is scum. He's only still alive because you keep insisting that people claim their role info for no reason.
But I'll tell you what. If Hawkeye gets lynched and somehow, miraculously, shows up as town, I'll take your advice in the future. If he gets lynched and shows up as scum(which he almost assuredly will), I'd appreciate it if, in the future, you don't try to tell me what to do.
However, I feel like AbbeyGargoyle has been hiding behind this wagon to avoid addressing accusations against him of being the SK. I want him to talk before finishing off Hawk. Vote AbbeyGargoyle
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
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Frankly, though, I'd just concede that better than half of your PBPA was badly biased and move on with the actual good points against him, which can be stated in just a couple sentences.
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I haven't read over all of the back and forth between Cyan and HE, but from what I've read I'm not getting convinced to rethink my future vote. HE"s responses, specifically the two that HE asks everyone to look over, I'm not buying HE"s explanation over. The way I see both those posts is that they're open to interpretation from either viewpoint. And that's something I feel is incriminating. There's no need to hinge a defense on open ended statements and hope that people will believe you.
One thing, I'm curious about. Why is there a need to get AG to claim today? If his claims stinks of SK'ness, is the choice of lynch going to change as a result? Otherwise, why is it not best to wait till tomorrow?
PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
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Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
For me, it's because I don't think the HE lynch is all that great and I want to have the full picture before we move forward.
Not sure how others feel about it.
First of all, where was there any mention of ZDS in my post? Secondly, where did I say it was better we wait?
I have to say that your putting words into my post in both of these cases really make me (and only me for those that want to mischaracterize my statements) doubt your motives, Puzzle.
Besides, it's great that you can "certify it's not better to wait." I apparently don't have the same info as you, which is why I was asking the question. I am not as sure of it as some other people are and I wanted to hear opinions.
PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
Matrix Mafia Town MVP
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Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
What don't you like about the case, Grakky-poo?
The longer that I remain unclaimed, the more powerful my role becomes. As soon as my ability is claimed, it becomes relatively useless. I would give a name claim, but I understood the previous calls to be for a full claim, which everyone knows my thoughts on.
CP, if the meat of the case against me can be summed up in only a couple of sentences would it be fair to say that this post by AbbeyGargoyle does that adequately?
Look, I have been a part of this type of lengthy PBPA attack and response before. I know that it is tedious and that many players will simply tune it out. The longer the PBPA the more likely it is players will tune it out. This puts the person attacked at a disadvantage for obvious reasons.
I am still working on responding to each point cyan made.
I think that I have clearly shown how in so many of the points Cyan has made that he misinterpreted, omitted and ignored what I actually say. I have also repeated illustrated how cyan refuses to address any legitimate question I put to him regarding his posts.
So, if the real meat of the case against me is contained in AbbeyGargoyle’s summary I would be willing to cut to the chase and address those points.
I will put it to everyone to answer this. Also if there is a point that is valid and not contained in that summary I would appreciate it if they would post it. If not I will finish the entire response by the end of the weekend.
As I have said so many times during this game Cyan, you have no idea why I posted in the manner that I did. I have also stated directly and indirectly that I did it deliberately and for a reason.
I have omitted the rest of your post because, quite frankly, imo, you are embarrassing yourself. It will become glaringly obvious when I am lynched and it is shown I am town.
Grak stated that he played the way he did to generate reactions. I did the same thing. You’ve seen me do this before and yet you act as though this is something new. I have countless times this game gave you the benefit of the doubt and told you to re-evalute what your interpretation of my posts were.
Yes, I did it in a confrontational, antagonistic and sometimes condescending manner. I admitted that earlier and I said that I was doing it for a reason.
Did you ever think about that and pursue that thought from the perspective that I was telling the truth?
I don’t think so.
As I have been preoccupied with addressing your clueless and distorted PBPA of every one of my posts I have not had a real chance to analyize the results of my posting style.
But for example, look at how Atlseal reacted to me. Particularly to my role claim.
I honestly dislike having to spell out this sort of thing and I even chastised you earlier in the game for Grak being forced to basically spell out exactly what he was doing . By forcing him to spell it out you effectively rendered his tactic useless from then on. My words were apparently wasted on you since you completely missed my point.
There are the “Hoyle tactics” of playing mafia and then there are players who don’t play by Hoyle. I play both ways and will continue to do so.
If I were you, I’d take that righteous foot out of your mouth and get ready to listen to Grak for a while because you are wrong, you have been wrong all game and your refusal to listen to what I have been saying directly to you is a big part of why.
Oh, I fully expect to hear after this that I am now backing away from addressing your PBPA and that I am saying Grak is cleared or a townie. neither of these is correct. I am more then willing to subject the town to the rest of my response to your posts but that may only serve to allow me continue to repeat myself regarding how you missed the mark on analyizing my posts. As for Grak, I see what he did early on as interesting and potentially very effective. I see his abandoning that tactic and the fairly dramatic change in his playing style to be very curious. Yes, you and others force him to spell out what he was doing and render it uless there after, but after that where is the rest of the pro town action that should have replaced it? I have not looked directly at each of his posts, so this is strickly an impression. It is, however something that has been on my mind for a while.
Hey, now you can say i'm hedging my bets too.
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Here, Hawkeye starts in on deriding my PBPA, as well as insulting me personally. A PBPA which he repeatedly called for. This is just the first of many such posts as Hawkeye responds to the case I presented. Considering that Hawkeye has repeatedly stated that he considers me town, and considering that he repeatedly asked for a case to be brought against him, his attitude makes no sense. Unless you come to the conclusion that he's just trying to draw out a fight and slow down the town.
Obviously I have no idea how you know about locations. Why would you even ask me that? This is scummy, because you are clearly trying to make my position look worse by forcing me to admit to not having knowledge that I could not possibly have in the first place.
So, what you're saying is that it's okay that you have contributed virtually nothing to this game, because you role-played while do so? Sorry, but I disagree. Essentially, via your roleplaying, you just active-lurked. You managed to post plenty, without ever really saying anything. How is this doing the game justice?
It's meaningless. It's also worth noting that Azrael essentially disabused your theory regarding this roleplaying with a later vote count. And yet, you still lynched Hvir based upon the fact that he didn't pick up on your ridiculous vague clues regarding this. Even though no one else picked up on them either, and multiple people had said as much before you voted him.
I think this can hardly be called an 'attempt' at putting forth your theory. In fact, I really don't see where, in that post, that you say anything about your theory about locations. Maybe you can point this out for us. As for voting for CP, nowhere do you explain WHY you voted for him. Saying 'Grak +7, CP -5' means absolutely nothing whatsoever. Assuming that is supposed to be a scale, what is it a scale of? Why did you come to that conclusion? Etc, etc. This is just another example of active lurking on your part. You're acting like you're participating in the game, but it's really just smoke and mirrors. I mean honestly, how can you come down on me for just saying you were scummy all game w/o presenting a major case(something I always intended to do, but was just waiting for the right time), when your apparent idea of 'explaining your suspicions of someone' is :CP -7 = most suspicious person in the game.
I'm not sure why you feel it's important to mention the fact that you complimented Raf. That really doesn't mean anything, especially since, of course, you're not saying what is 'Grade A' about his post anyway. And you can try to spin it all you want, but to me, it seems fairly apparent that asking people if they've seen games where a multi-voter was non-town is an attempt to make CP's role seem less town than it is. This, again, is consistent with your previous attempt at saying CP Was suspicious, without explaining why. Except now, you're just trying to goad other people into making CP's claim less valid. If you don't think his claim made him town, why didn't you simply say as much? And I really don't see why you went through all of this sub-claiming to begin with. Even beyond that, I don't see why you feel the need to continually point this out. We all believe that your role is Truman. Your irrational insistence on mentioning all of these instinces where you breadcrumbed this(especially since breadcrumbing is, at best, a non-tell anyway)
I'd love for you to point out where you 'gave your opinion' regarding the masons, because I'm not seeing that. I also fail to see how it is pro-town behavior to try to bait someone into giving a particular answer. Why not just directly ask?
Why would you even make a statement like 'I had no idea that Loran was scum'. Are we supposed to believe you just because you say so? If you're scum, which is my conclusion, then you absolutely did know that Loran was scum as well. The point is that your interaction here with a known scum was dodgy, which you're being called on. Saying 'I didn't know he was scum' is ridiculous, because obviously you're not going to say anything else. And the PBPA that Grak did, if anything, was vastly MORE negative than Xyre's, because Grak spent at least half of it going out of his way to be insulting. It is blatant hypocrisy to attack Xyre for being negative, but not Grak, just because you wanted to barn him.
Just because the post as a whole doesn't make sense, doesn't mean it's not obvious that you're trying to backup atlseal's claim, based upon nothing. If you didn't believe it cleared atlseal, I fail to see why you didn't just say this. Instead, what you did was go along with as much of his claim as had been provided, without remotely trying to get more information from him. This doesn't jive with the knowledge of the game that was available at that time, in my opinion. Also, as scum, it gives you plenty of room to go back, just like you're doing now, and try to wiggle your way out. You've done this all game. The only time you really concretely tied yourself to anything was my wagon, and even then, you mostly just barned someone else's PBPA.
What is the point in questioning how an Agent can be town, when we knew, conclusively, that one was town? Again, this comes across to me as active lurking. And I didn't misread the post, it's woefully obvious from CP's post that he is referring to atlseal's wagon because he directly mentions atlseal in his post. Beyond that, as I said, it's fairly obvious that you're just trying to force him into attacking me. His position on atlseal could not have been more plain.
It looks bad regardless of hindsight. It makes no sense that CP would be a multi-voter AND somehow be able to daykill people. It also makes no sense for you to continue trying to throw dirt on CP, without ever providing an actual reason why you were doing so, and particularly without voting him.
If anything, this explanation only makes you look more scummy, not less so. All you're saying here is that you didn't commit to a real opinion on atlseal, you just stated belief of his claimed name. Which is great for a scum, and terrible for a townie.
What does any of this post have to do with anything? Seriously, I don't get it. It's disconcerting, to me, that you spend so much time and effort sub-claiming your role and roleplaying, and so little time actually contributing anything to ongoing events.
See above. It is ridiculous how much time you, by your own admission here, spent building up your own roleclaim. You have done more of that than anything else, which is why I accuse you of actively lurking.
Saying 'I also think someone else is suspicious and it's a surprise to me means absolutely nothing'. All that does is gives you room later to make a post exactly like this one, where you try to unduly throw suspicion on someone of your choice, without having to back this up with anything. If anything, Fade's statement that he can't get his head around this game is synonymous with sentiments echoed by at least 5 players in this thread. Yet, I don't see you casting suspicion on anyone else for this. I fail to see the distinction here. I also find it interesting that you accuse him of making a statement to give himself an excuse for something later, since it seems that this is exactly what you have done here.
I love this particular bit. What does me being wrong alot in the past(which is a huge ad hom, by the way), have to do with me attacking you now? A person can be wrong regardless of their alignment. And again, I intentionally hadn't responded to your responses yet, which I flatly stated.
Also telling, IMO, is that he directs all of this towards me, but then at the ends takes a pot shot at Axelrod. If you're so suspicious of Axel, why haven't you expressed this earlier today? You tried to goad him for awhile yesterday, while conveniently completely ignoring the building cast against atlseal. Yet today, you had nothing to say. Until now anyway. Again, to me, this just comes across as you wanting to change the subject.
Post 3124
This post is Hawkeye's own detail of his voting record. I'm not posting the whole thing here because the post is huge. I've already explained how hawkeye's assessment of the atlseal wagon is ridiculously misleading. Also misleading/deceptive is how Hawkeye tries to tie my claim to atlseals. For one thing, even when Hawkeye made this post, the botched daykill of Axelrod had already happened, meaning that every aspect of my claim(except for my alignment) is now verified. And of course, Hawkeye trying to compare me to a known scum is a nice touch. Lastly, atlseal presented his claim as a full claim, then just changed it as he went along. I always maintained that there was information to my role that I was not revealing. Why I didn't reveal it should be obvious, now.
This is ridiculous. Just because one person is suspicious of another doesn't mean that they HAVE to vote for them. Did you vote for CP, or fade, or Axel when you were expressing suspicion of them? Clearly you did not. So yes, you absolutely are guilty of the accusation that you make here.
It's great that you try to paint your fishing in some pro-town light. It's still fishing, and was still unnecessary at this juncture.
Right. Or, like I said, you didn't think the wagon was going anywhere and tried to get away from it. This is fairly consistent with your history in this game. You have made a multitude of shallow attacks on people, quickly abandoning them and looking for someone else when it was obvious that no one was going to go along with you. Conveniently enough, none of said shallow attacks were ever directed at a scum. In the cases of two really obvious scum bandwagons, you completely ignored one, and virtually ignored the other, adding your vote to the wagon at the last minute, when the outcome was inevitable.
This is exactly what you said:
Please explain how that is not trying to promote the possibility that LJustus could be scum? Grakthis said 'he's not clever enough to do this as scum'. You said 'he is plenty clever whenever I've been in games with him'. You went on to further extrapolate about mafia talking prior to the game(something that there is no reason for you to assume would have been possible, since the game started during the day), etc etc. You are clearly implying that Ljustus could be scum here, I can't see how you can possibly deny this.
Can you just not read your own posts? You flatly refer to LJustus as a fall-back lynch. That is pretty obviously saying that we should not let him live. You further extrapolate on that by suggesting 3 investigation targets for him. But one of those targets can only be investigated if LJustus dies in the first place. Honestly, I can't get your argument(s) here. Your statements are here, plain as day, for anyone to read.
My point is that 'Why' should be obvious. LJustus specifically asked for people to vote for him, and said that he would get a free investigation upon his death. Then Axelrod votes him. Again, the 'why' here is ridiculously obvious. Your question here to Axel makes no sense. Of course, if you're scum, then you are pinning someone that you know to not be scum to a specific attack on someone else that you know to not be scum. That makes plenty of sense. So, here, your actions ONLY make sense from a scum perspective.
NONE of this is even remotely 'made clear' in the post in question. Nowhere do you say anything about saving the investigation for later when it's benefit can be 'maximized'. Talk about revisionist history. Besides, the concept that you are saying is 'so obvious' is a logical fallacy, because it is unlikely that a better time to willingly lynch a townie will come up beyond Day 1.
My point is that you accuse Axelrod of leaving off 'possibilities', but those 'possibilities' are so unlikely that it's obvious why he didn't list them. Beyond that, in your own further explanation, you go out of your way to state that any possiblities that you don't list you left off on purpose. So, why is it that you can do this, but Axelrod cannot? This is egregious hypocrisy.
And I didn't miss the fact that you further explained your vote on me, it just wasn't worth commenting on.
Not only does this response have NOTHING to do with the post that I made, I fail to see what it has to do with anything at all at this juncture. You have pointed out, time and again, that I said I Would respond to Grakthis' PBPA but then didn't. Congratulations, you got me. I honestly felt like the situation with LJustus should be allowed to play out first. People disagreed, so then I responded. Whatever point you're trying to make here seems to be woefully pointless.
You have to realize that none of your arguments mean anything to me. In my mind, you are scum. There is a vast amount of evidence to support this, and nothing is going to change my mind on this point. From my perspective, as I have said REPEATEDLY, you are baiting me into this long, drawn out battle in hopes of finding some relatively meaningless point to try and strawman. I already see this happening at certain points in your responses.
Of course you are. And of course, you have made no effort to provide a real explanation for this. Considering that you are a mere couple of votes from lynch, it seems to me that, if you actually are/were town, you would be largely more forthcoming than you are being here.
I'm not embarassing myself at all.
Of course it will. This statement is so much WIFOM that it is pointless.
Fascinating how you didn't bring this up before now.
The only time I've seen you act in this fashion before, you were scum. I'm not sure what you're getting at here.
Benefit of the doubt? What a load of garbage. You just said, earlier TODAY, that the only reason you're not voting me now is because of Axelrod. You could at least be consistent to your own statements.
There is no reason for a townie to act in the fashion that you are. And seriously, the crappy attitude aspect of it is the LEAST of your transgressions. Your voting record is abyssmal. Your claim is a non-tell at best, with no apparent town benefit. Your rationale/logic have been horrendous. You have used roleplaying as an obvious smokescreen to avoid real participation. By your own admission, you spent a ridiculous number of posts
I fail to see how this is relevant.
Yes, it would be terrible if you were forced to commit to a particular stance. At least, if you're scum, that is the case. The argument that you're using here is ridiculously weak, because A)there is no way to prove it and B)it provides no indication of alignment.
Got to love the fact that you tried to preempt the obvious argument against you by listing it yourself. I'm not sure what Grak being cleared as a townie has to do with anything, even though he's not. I also have no idea what you're referring to as 'what he did early on' and what 'I and others forced him to do'. I don't really think Grakthis has done or said anything pro-town since Day 1, but A)that's another case and B)considering what we know now about his role, this should work itself out before too long.
So fine, I responded to all of your responses. I still have no idea why, because you really didn't provide any further explanation of anything, from my mind. If anything, you only seem more scummy now to me than before.
Of course, you'll just call my responses weak, as by my own admission, I am bad at PBPAs. I know that you're hoping that this will all collapse due to inefficiency on my part, but that is not going to happen, no matter how much I have to respond to you saying the same thing, over and over again.
I really hope that, if people actually read all of this(which is highly unlikely, yet another reason that I didn't want to continue all of this), that we can just lynch Hawkeye now and worry about everyone else claiming tomorrow.
I honestly still don't see why all of this information needs to be revealed, and Puzzle's involvement sounds more and more like the stunt he pulled in Trek mafia with each passing post(no offense, Puzzle, I have a great amount of respect for you, but these circumstances are starting to sound similar to me)
No, I have no used my ability yet this game.
Abbey's claim that his ability is useless if revealed does not inspire me at all. Considering there are only three players who are completely "unrevealed" in any respect left I can't see there being a huge deal of harm in it.
Unvote AbbeyGargoyle, Vote Spoon for pressure. It's not like AG's going anywhere.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Which makes me a little curious about Dagger successfully targeting me.
PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
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Matrix Mafia Town MVP
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Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Go ahead. At this point, however, I think AG needs to talk.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
I quoted your post in my question to Az and his response is... he couldn't answer that. Joy.
Puzzle won't be here tml to clarify what he is talking about if he has been devanillanized.
Someone else targeted you that night? Are you notified if your ability triggered?
Another note to self: check how Spoon reacted when Alx claimed he couldn't target a specific someone.
After wading through the Cyan/HE's posts, I can say I am willing to support a HE's lynch today.
AG being evasive about claiming at this point of time reeks of scumminess.
@Puzzle: You know what CM told ZDS?
@HE: I believe the main point against you is the way you have reacted during both of loran and atlseal's wagons. Unless you can answer that satisfactorily, which I doubt, you are going to be today's lynch. If you really are town, I would advise you to start the analysis/observations that you have been promising about those other things that have caught your eyes immediately.
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
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NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
I wasn't, so apparently not.
If Charmmaster has his own role on the replacement list, I think it's safe to say that, uh, 'Niv' does too.
I'll get on that when AG steps up to the same request.
This is a fair point.
I regretted that swipe at you right after I posted it.
It did not need to be posted.
I am sorry I said it and I apologize Cyan.
I read though it and I responded to almost all of it.
**
Thank you.
We can’t have a discussion if you simply call me scummy, for much of the game refuse to say why and when you finally do you refuse to respond to my questions or simply dismiss my explanations.
Originally Posted by Hawkeye
I've actually been preoccupied and haven't viewed the thread since early Saturday. I hope that everyone other then Cyan will at least allow me to respond to Cyan's masterpiece of logical and deductive reasoning before voting to lynch me. Please. I also hope that everyone other then Cyan will actually read my responses.
Thank you.
Cyan, I see you finally scrounged up the guts to try to actually make a case against me instead of your ineffectual sniping all game long that I'm scummy.
Well, I for one, appreciate you doing as I have asked you more then once to do and I do appreciate how difficult it must have been for you. It's not easy to completely misinterpreted and/or misrepresent my posts. Especially as it is clear that you have no idea what I was doing or what I am doing now.
I will post my response to the PBPA shortly. As for a complete claim, well I have already done it. Since I haven't yet read through your PBPA yet, I have to ask, do you think I am lying about what I have claimed? If not it makes no sense to ask me to completely claim. I have already done so. You have my role name and my ability. What more is it you are looking for?
Here, Hawkeye starts in on deriding my PBPA, as well as insulting me personally. A PBPA which he repeatedly called for. This is just the first of many such posts as Hawkeye responds to the case I presented. Considering that Hawkeye has repeatedly stated that he considers me town, and considering that he repeatedly asked for a case to be brought against him, his attitude makes no sense. Unless you come to the conclusion that he's just trying to draw out a fight and slow down the town.
**Cyan, I was trying to have a discussion of the points you found scummy about my play. You stonewalled that for 80% of the game. You admit that I repeatedly asked you to respond and you finally did with the PBPA. Put yourself in my position. After asking so many times for a case from an increasingly hostile player would not you be just a little sarcastic when he finally posted one? And when you finally got to read that case you found it to frequently completely ignore important points in many of your posts,
miss the point or meaning of almost every other one? If you say you would not have been sarcastic then you are a better man then I.
Also why does my attitude make no sense? I considered you town based on Axelrod’s support for part of you role claim and also based on the way you reacted to my game play. BUT after a certain point a player of your caliber should have been able to see something other then incomprehensible behavior. I don’t seem to have tipped anyone’s scum bar to a significant degree with these posts of mine but you find not just a few of them as scummy but virtually every single one of them.
Something is wrong with that.
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How did I Know about the locations?
How did you not?
Maybe I think like Israel or maybe I flatter myself that I do. I have said on many occasions posted that I play this game intuitively. There are times that I simply know things and I honestly can't explain how I do. It just struck me as a perfect aspect to this game that should be there. As to why Hair did not pick up on the clues I dropped I can't say. I don't know. I thought I was fairly obvious and direct in trying to get a discussion of the locations going. I directly questioned him about it and I still maintain that if his role is as he described, then he misplayed that part. I did not constantly role-play as the director. I used the director to frame the post as an episode of the Truman Show and the content of the post to build my unclaimed role claim.
Obviously I have no idea how you know about locations. Why would you even ask me that? This is scummy, because you are clearly trying to make my position look worse by forcing me to admit to not having knowledge that I could not possibly have in the first place.
**No it’s not scummy.
You asked me how I knew of the locations, I still think it was an obvious possibility based on all the game set up information we received. I was asking you how you missed that. As it turned out I was right and when Hair came out stating his ability was based on moving to locations, I questioned him on it. If he had mentioned that fact at any point after I had made my repeated requests that we possibly move the group I would have had reason to believe his claim. If I had a role like his and someone had asked about moving I would have at the very least suggested that we might consider that idea. As I said I think Hair miss played this. Since he did not mention anything along these lines I assumed he was lying. I think the whole episode is pretty clear.
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Why not do what?
Say goofy things like what?
Why don't you ask Israel why he put all the work he did into designing this game? He has crafted a game that some will not truly appreciate. I wanted to try my best to do his work justice.
Honestly, if I can make someone think about what they are reading and see what deeper meaning there is beyond the obvious then I am happy. I simply have to rely on the ability of players to pick up on what I am trying to tell them. Many players do and I hope that they see some value in it. Some people simply can't or don't.
Anyway, thanks for posting so I can post this first part of my response to your PBPA.
So, what you're saying is that it's okay that you have contributed virtually nothing to this game, because you role-played while do so? Sorry, but I disagree. Essentially, via your role-playing, you just active-lurked. You managed to post plenty, without ever really saying anything. How is this doing the game justice?
**It’s like being invited to a Halloween costume party and showing up in your regular cloths with a polka dot tie or showing up in a soot suit, polished spats, broad brim hat and a wild green mask. One shows your appreciation for the invite and the other doesn’t.
as for my post not having content. I disagree. Just because you did not or could not see the points I made does not mean they weren’t there. I have tried to do something I normally don’t do and explain, in detail exactly what I was trying to do in each of the responses I have made so far to your PBPA. You have been very vocal in dismissing them as merely restating the post I made. If that is the case then you should have understood the point I made the first time I made it. Sadly you did not and not you have tried to shout down my attempts to explain.
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Not meaningless, but it is role-playing. As I mentioned earlier I had a theory that moving in the game setting would possibly be of importance and this was my first post that talked about the group moving. It also was the start of what I thought was pretty obvious bread crumbing of my role character.
It's meaningless. It's also worth noting that Israel essentially disabused your theory regarding this role-playing with a later vote count. And yet, you still lynched Hair based upon the fact that he didn't pick up on your ridiculous vague clues regarding this. Even though no one else picked up on them either, and multiple people had said as much before you voted him.
**If it were meaningless we would not have other players in the game role playing. There would not have specifically been instructions in the sign up regarding role playing. I had a theory about role playing and I tried to verify it. As for Hair. AGAIN, you have to look at what happened from his perspective. HE, not you, had a role that was directly impacted by moving to locations. He should have been looking for ways to do that or information on how that might happen. I made several direct suggestions that the group possible move to a different location. That it might be good for us to do so. Hair never posted anything that suggested he had even seen my posts. Now if he was suspicious of me then I would have expected him to try to question me or make a case against me if he thought I was scum. He did not. It was not until he was under suspicion as being scum that he brought it up and he did in a manner that looked to me like he was a scum player grabbing at straws to keep from being lynched. That’s why I voted for him and I stand by it.
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2nd attempt to get the idea of moving around out there and possibly discussed. If it was a mechanic in the game I wanted to see if anyone would respond before simply blurting out my theory. I will honestly try not to take gratuities swipes at Cyan for his lack if insight or his blatant misrepresenting my posts.
Here he says I gave “Apparently serious vote on Carrion Pigeons, without even the most remote explanation of it.” now, I ask you , how can you not see why I voted for CP from what I posted?
This is what I posted:
It is obvious that I went through the thread and assigned a numerical rating to each post based on how I viewed the post in relation to it being suspicious or not.
I ask you, does it seem like I voted for CP without the most remote explanation of it?
I think this can hardly be called an 'attempt' at putting forth your theory. In fact, I really don't see where, in that post, that you say anything about your theory about locations. Maybe you can point this out for us. As for voting for CP, nowhere do you explain WHY you voted for him. Saying 'Gram +7, CP -5' means absolutely nothing whatsoever. Assuming that is supposed to be a scale, what is it a scale of? Why did you come to that conclusion? Etc, etc. This is just another example of active lurking on your part. You're acting like you're participating in the game, but it's really just smoke and mirrors. I mean honestly, how can you come down on me for just saying you were scummy all game w/o presenting a major case(something I always intended to do, but was just waiting for the right time), when your apparent idea of 'explaining your suspicions of someone' is :CP -7 = most suspicious person in the game.
**Post grading is something I had done since I started playing mafia. I do know that this practice is done by other players as well. If you don’t do this cyan, you might think about trying it. If you are ignorant of this practice than I can’t defend this post to you, but I have very clearly explained what this post was and why I made it.
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Hamm, I don’t think I’m reading the same post as you here Cyan. I complimented Raff on a choice post he made questioning Byre. I continued to build my unclaimed role claim by directly quoting a line from the movie my character is from, I directly asked people in the game what their experience has been with multi votes and that role being non-townie, and I voiced my support for the masons to remain hidden. I know you completely missed my role clue but to characterize this post of mine as meaningless role-playing and the only thing of note is a minor attempt to discredit CP is simply missing the mark by 2/3’s. Meaning, there where three points made in this post and you either missed or ignored two of them.
I'm not sure why you feel it's important to mention the fact that you complimented Raff. That really doesn't mean anything, especially since, of course, you're not saying what is 'Grade A' about his post anyway. And you can try to spin it all you want, but to me, it seems fairly apparent that asking people if they've seen games where a multi-voter was non-town is an attempt to make Cap’s role seem less town than it is. This, again, is consistent with your previous attempt at saying CP Was suspicious, without explaining why. Except now, you're just trying to goad other people into making Cap’s claim less valid. If you don't think his claim made him town, why didn't you simply say as much? And I really don't see why you went through all of this sub-claiming to begin with. Even beyond that, I don't see why you feel the need to continually point this out. We all believe that your role is Truman. Your irrational insistence on mentioning all of these instances where you bread crumbed this(especially since bread crumbing is, at best, a non-tell anyway)
**When I read a particularly good post, one that makes a particularly pointiest point of a point in a intelligent manner, I like to acknowledge it. With Raff’s post that’s all that was. Read into it what you want to cyan, but sometimes a cigar is only a cigar.
Regarding CP, I was openly suspicious of him and I wanted the opinion of others who had more experience with that particular ability to comment on the likelihood of that type of ability being scum. You seem to miss the fact that after this question I move onto other suspects them CP because the response I got made me reconsider him somewhat.
Gram asked me why the bread crumbing and when I questioned him on it he seemed to realize that there is an obvious answer to this question. Perhaps it is not as obvious as we thought.
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I really must try to be more obvious in what I post. I, again, alluded to my role character by the use of the term risk management in a sarcastic question to DHY that was indeed baiting. But since I had already come out and clearly stated I did not think the Masons should come out and claim, the meaning of that statement was to try to get DHY to come out and clearly state whether or not he thought they should.
Cyan, Did you completely miss the post where I answered the question as to what 816KAZ is? If you did here is the answer I gave. Google it. Again building on the unclaimed role claim for my character.
I'd love for you to point out where you 'gave your opinion' regarding the masons, because I'm not seeing that. I also fail to see how it is pro-town behavior to try to bait someone into giving a particular answer. Why not just directly ask?
**http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2126277&postcount=1559
Cyan, I had been directly asking you, all game to provide answers to questions I asked you and to put forth a case against me. Until very recently it got me now where. By baiting DHY, who at the time I was no’s sure was Town or mafia I was giving him more rope to potentially hang himself then I would have if I had asked him a direct questions or worse a yes or no questions. It was about trying to get a player to go on record and post as much information as possible that could be used to either confirm or incite him later.
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At this point in the game I had no Idea Loran was definitely scum. The point the made that I agreed with was valid and I still agree with it. I disagree that the PBPA that Gram did was as entirely negative as Byres was. I do think that at this point in the game you had been playing differently and since you had not yet claimed I saw that difference and the valid points I saw in Gram’s PBPA more then enough to justify my voting for you. Frankly, it is only Axe’s confirmation of some of the points of your claim that makes you less of a suspect now.
Why would you even make a statement like 'I had no idea that Loran was scum'. Are we supposed to believe you just because you say so? If you're scum, which is my conclusion, then you absolutely did know that Loran was scum as well. The point is that your interaction here with a known scum was dodgy, which you're being called on. Saying 'I didn't know he was scum' is ridiculous, because obviously you're not going to say anything else. And the PBPA that Gram did, if anything, was vastly MORE negative than Byre’s, because Gram spent at least half of it going out of his way to be insulting. It is blatant hypocrisy to attack Byre for being negative, but not Gram, just because you wanted to barn him.
**Cyan, think about what you just said. If “I did not know he was scum” is ridiculous, because I’m not going to say anything else”, then what do you expect me to say? If you are dead set against considering, or letting other consider, the possibility that I am telling the truth, then you have created a no win situation. In your eyes I’m damned if I say what I said, the truth, and I damned if I say anything else because it was not the obvious answer a player in the situation your are trying to create would say.
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Does not make sense to you?
Let me ask you a question Cyan. If this post does not make any sense to you, then how do you know I was being subtle?
You are rightly looking at this post with reading glasses of hindsight but you are not also thinking of what was known at that time in the game. This was the first possible confirmation of a role in the game like mine that did not draw from the Matrix Universe. I believed the claim but not that it cleared Alsea as a townie. Only that his name claim was probably true.
Just because the post as a whole doesn't make sense, doesn't mean it's not obvious that you're trying to backup at seal’s claim, based upon nothing. If you didn't believe it cleared at seal, I fail to see why you didn't just say this. Instead, what you did was go along with as much of his claim as had been provided, without remotely trying to get more information from him. This doesn't jive with the knowledge of the game that was available at that time, in my opinion. Also, as scum, it gives you plenty of room to go back, just like you're doing now, and try to wiggle your way out. You've done this all game. The only time you really concretely tied yourself to anything was my wagon, and even then, you mostly just burned someone else's PBPA.
**Ok, it’s my turn to say you are not making sense to me. I am a player with a non-Matrix character for a role. There have been several players revealed or claimed to have Matrix based roles. Here is a player who claims another non-Matrix role. Think about it. Yes, it would make sense to me that he could be telling the truth about his role because I also had a non-Matrix role. You claim to have a non-Matrix role. Did this not strike you as a possibility as well? That is an interesting point. I will have to go back and look at everyone who has claimed to have a non-matrix role to see how they reacted to the first few non-matrix role claims that came out and the ones that have now been confirmed. They should have a positive or neutral reactions. Possibly with questions to the claimant.
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I questioned how an Agent could be town. I voiced encouragement to Spoon, Raff and Byre leading the discussion at this point of the game.
It was not All’s wagon evaporating that I attacked CP for it was the fact that there were two bandwagons Alt’s and Yours Cyan that evaporated at near the same time that CP was lamenting but oddly enough he was not a part of either. He had his vote on Sutherlands. If either of those bandwagons were really of interest to him why did he not put his vote where his mouth was and vote for either? How is it that you have completely misread this post to eliminate yourself from the discussion and how is it that you completely missed what I was really attacking CP for?
What is the point in questioning how an Agent can be town, when we knew, conclusively, that one was town? Again, this comes across to me as active lurking. And I didn't misread the post, it's woefully obvious from Cap’s post that he is referring to at seal’s wagon because he directly mentions at seal in his post. Beyond that, as I said, it's fairly obvious that you're just trying to force him into attacking me. His position on at seal could not have been more plain.
**So it is undeniable that because CP has voiced regret that the Cyan and Alsea wagons had dissolved and at the same time he was voting for Sutherlands, that he is town? Could this not have, just as easily been a scum players voicing support for two failing bandwagons to gains credibility with no risk and keeping his vote on a player that was also at no risk of being lynched?
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Again, building the unclaimed role claim. I pointed out to Byre that there was at least one other possibility to the question he was commenting on, what Aram’s post told us about who might have wanted him dead at that point in the game. I did say that CP could have done it to make Alsea look bad. I stand by this. Yes, in hindsight, with the knowledge we have now that Alsea was scum this looks bad. It is still possible. It is unlikely but it is possible that one scum was distancing himself from another . I admit it is a long shot and if you want to use my possibly being wrong here to build your case against me then I say you have a board you can build with.
It looks bad regardless of hindsight. It makes no sense that CP would be a multi-voter AND somehow be able to day kill people. It also makes no sense for you to continue trying to throw dirt on CP, without ever providing an actual reason why you were doing so, and particularly without voting him.
**We are all wrong about some players in this game from time to time Cyan. As you will see for yourself, yet again shortly. Some of us are able to admit it when we are. In this case I was wrong about him and I said so.
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I have already stated why I initially thought that Alsea’s name claim was true. I too had a role outside of the Matrix universe. Here I give more reasons why I thought it was a perfect choice of a role in this game. I say again, this does not mean that the role is town. At this point I did not have at seal as either town or mafia.
If anything, this explanation only makes you look more scummy, not less so. All you're saying here is that you didn't commit to a real opinion on at seal, you just stated belief of his claimed name. Which is great for a scum, and terrible for a townie.
**This makes little sense to me. I stand by this response and by my original post.
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Ok, there is a recurring scene in the movie of Truman being stopped in front of various advertising posters for what amounted to product placement commercials. This is a parody of that. I thought it was rather well done.
This second part is what I find very surprising that Cyan could not even pick up on. How did you miss this Cyan?
I speculate a little more openly now on another theory I had about the game and the role playing in it. My role indicated nothing about role-playing or it’s effect on the game. I come right out and state this. How did you not understand it Cyan?
We knew from the get go that it did have some effect on the game and there were a couple of other players who were role-playing early on besides myself. As it turns out we now know there is some mechanic that may or may not cause or force a player to role-play. I have never role-played in this game for any other reason then I wanted to.
What does any of this post have to do with anything? Seriously, I don't get it. It's disconcerting, to me, that you spend so much time and effort sub-claiming your role and role-playing, and so little time actually contributing anything to ongoing events.
****You don’t get it? How much clearer do I have to be?
We were told in the set up that role playing was to be a part of the game. Ok, what would that entail? How would it work? What if players who chose to role play from the start had some effect happen to them? What if some roles benefited from role playing in ways that would become apparent later in the game? What if there were players who had to role play as a form of posting restriction?
All these things played through my mind. I enjoy role playing in some games for various reasons and I decided to try that I was going to role play and I would try to find out if it effected me. It did not. That did not mean that it would not effect others or that someone in the game did not have a role ability that focused on role playing. I expressed some of my thoughts in order to try to coax out a response from other players. Since it was possible I would be tipping off a scum players with this kind of ability I did it gradually and subtly. I also looked for reactions to the role playing discussion.
Now we know that either certain players role played by choice or were forced to. If they were forced to I was right again in a theory I had made about the game and potentially we could learn from this.
To do so we need to go back to each incident of players discussing role-playing. There was a discussion of it early on in the game and see how players reacted to that discussion. We could look act players reacted to my own role playing and we can look at the reactions to those other players who recently appeared to be forced to role play, DYH, Raff and possibly others.
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No, not meaningless.
This is by far the most obvious unclaimed role claim building post directly quoting the movie and it responded to Zeds’ speculation regarding role-playing.
See above. It is ridiculous how much time you, by your own admission here, spent building up your own role claim. You have done more of that than anything else, which is why I accuse you of actively lurking.
**See above. To ignore the fact that this is a mechanic in this game and, at best, there is valuable information to be gained by examining it. At worst we loose nothing by reviewing this.
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Wow, I am surprised that you caught this Cyan. Earlier in the game, when I said I found CP the most suspicious player in the game and voted for him I also said that the second most suspicious player was a bit of a surprise to me and that I would keep an eye on him. That player is Fade.
You do see why I did not come right out and voice my suspicion of Fade or why I question him regarding why he made the statements he made, right Cyan?
Here, I come out and question points he was making about Aram. Not only that I also comment on a very odd paragraph Fade made and I still stand by it. Fade basically says he is having a hard time digesting the data in this game. Almost as if he wants to build an excuse for why he is not contributing more to the game. I said this was an “unmade” like statement and it is.
Once again Cyan, how could you so completely miss the real point I was making in this post? Especially when I made no effort to hide this one.
Saying 'I also think someone else is suspicious and it's a surprise to me means absolutely nothing'. All that does is gives you room later to make a post exactly like this one, where you try to unduly throw suspicion on someone of your choice, without having to back this up with anything. If anything, Fade's statement that he can't get his head around this game is synonymous with sentiments echoed by at least 5 players in this thread. Yet, I don't see you casting suspicion on anyone else for this. I fail to see the distinction here. I also find it interesting that you accuse him of making a statement to give himself an excuse for something later, since it seems that this is exactly what you have done here.
**It maybe synonymous with other players but it is something I had not heard from fade before. When I hear one of the best players I know say, “this is too much for me to figure out” a flag goes up for me. I said so. I had also said that I was suspicious of Fade several times before that. One thing that did stick out for me after I made that initial post was Graces reaction to it. His, wow, I missed that at first but hey you’re right that looks strange post stakes me like some of the posts Alsea made in response to post I made after I claimed and explained why I voted for DYH.
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There are two things that have kept me from voting for Cyan a long time ago. First, the fact that Axe confirmed part of Cyan’s claim and second, and I do not mean to be degrading here, but the fact I have seen Cyan, so many times in the past, be so complete wrong about a player or situation that it is possible that his fixation on me this game could easily just be another example of that.
These two Axe and Cyan are very interesting. I do find both of them to be suspicious and of the two I think it is Axe who I am most interested in analyzing.
I hope that answers your questions. If not, say so and I will try again.
Back to the PBPA response.
EWP: Cyan, you did see my posts responding to the first parts of your PBPA right? I assure you I will continue to do so until I am done. That is unless you succeed in getting the others to vote for me before I get the chance.
Oh and by the way Cyan, this is the second time you have ignored answering my questions regarding your PBPA.
If you are having too difficult a time coming up with answers just say so and I will direct my questions to the rest of the players in general to speculate on what you meant or misinterpreted or simply missed.
I love this particular bit. What does me being wrong allot in the past(which is a huge ad home, by the way), have to do with me attacking you now? A person can be wrong regardless of their alignment. And again, I intentionally hadn't responded to your responses yet, which I flatly stated.
Also telling, IMO, is that he directs all of this towards me, but then at the ends takes a pot shot at Axelrod. If you're so suspicious of Axel, why haven't you expressed this earlier today? You tried to goad him for awhile yesterday, while conveniently completely ignoring the building cast against at seal. Yet today, you had nothing to say. Until now anyway. Again, to me, this just comes across as you wanting to change the subject.
**This is a fair point. I regretted that swipe at you right after I posted it. It did not need to be posted. I am sorry I said it and I apologize Cyan.
The reason I did not go after Axe earlier was because of his role claim. If he was John Conner, then I felt there was a good possibility that he had a role that was proton and possibly significant. His playing in a reserved manner or in a manner that was different then what I had seen from him could very well have been intentional and designed to keep him alive.
By posting only occasional suspicions when I saw them I allowed any scum that might be waiting for an opening to try to get a band wagon going. No one did though. It also worked to try to get axe to react to see if the suspicious action I saw was actually what I thought it was.
***********************************************************************
Post 3124
This post is Hawkeye's own detail of his voting record. I'm not posting the whole thing here because the post is huge. I've already explained how Hawkeye’s assessment of the at seal wagon is ridiculously misleading. Also misleading/deceptive is how Hawkeye tries to tie my claim to at seals. For one thing, even when Hawkeye made this post, the botched day kill of Axelrod had already happened, meaning that every aspect of my claim(except for my alignment) is now verified. And of course, Hawkeye trying to compare me to a known scum is a nice touch. Lastly, at seal presented his claim as a full claim, then just changed it as he went along. I always maintained that there was information to my role that I was not revealing. Why I didn't reveal it should be obvious, now.
**Cyan, since Axe public ally confirmed your claim I have not questioned any aspect of it other then your alignment. I really don’t doubt that either of you are how you claim to be. I question it you are townies or not. If anyone had been hounding you to reveal any role information that you save been slavishly hiding away for obvious reasons I missed it. I certainly didn’t and I don’t see why you are trying to make such a big deal out of that now.
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Yes, he did list reasons that if he felt were valid then he should have voted for him. He did not, he let the fact that no one else was paying enough attention to Alsea to be his justification to turn to another target. This removes the responsibility from him for not casting a vote on Alsea while still saying that he thinks at seal maybe a legit candidate.
You are wrong here Cyan, this is not something I did earlier in the game.
This is ridiculous. Just because one person is suspicious of another doesn't mean that they HAVE to vote for them. Did you vote for CP, or fade, or Axel when you were expressing suspicion of them? Clearly you did not. So yes, you absolutely are guilty of the accusation that you make here.
**I had voted for CP earlier in the game. I was never luscious enough of Fade to vote for him and I did not want a vote for Axe to be perceived as trying to deflect attention from addressing you or voting for Alsea.
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Yes, I wanted more information from you regarding the little information you revealed and I wanted you to go an record as stating a definite piece of general information that possibly would be of help down the road in either confirming or not your claim. You can try to paint this as “fishing” with a negative connotation but I’ll leave that to the rest of the players to decide.
It's great that you try to paint your fishing in some pro-town light. It's still fishing, and was still unnecessary at this juncture.
**That’s your opinion. In my opinion, it was necessary for me. When I want to get more information to clarify a point I ask for it in the manner I think is most effective. I will continue to do so. You might want to make that down in your list of tells because you can try to cast me as fishing again in the future when I do the same thing.
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This is still early in the game and you have not, to this point amassed the long record of avoiding, refusing and ignoring legitimate cases, questions and situations in the game. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt and unnoted to try to lower the level of pressure on you, in the hopes that you would feel more cooperative. This failed. You became even more uncooperative.
Right. Or, like I said, you didn't think the wagon was going anywhere and tried to get away from it. This is fairly consistent with your history in this game. You have made a multitude of shallow attacks on people, quickly abandoning them and looking for someone else when it was obvious that no one was going to go along with you. Conveniently enough, none of said shallow attacks were ever directed at a scum. In the cases of two really obvious scum bandwagons, you completely ignored one, and virtually ignored the other, adding your vote to the wagon at the last minute, when the outcome was inevitable.
**Rewriting history only works if those your are trying to fool can’t go back and read what really happened. Anyone interested in seeing how wrong you are on this can go back and actually read my posts instead or what your interpretation of them is.
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????
Maybe you should re-read the post. I did not say Justus could be scum. I said that there was a low likelihood that the action Gram was commenting on was a scum tactic, IMO.
It is this type of complete misreading or my posts that makes me question your intentions here Cyan. How can you completely miss so obvious a point?
This is exactly what you said:
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Originally Posted by Hawkeye
I don't know, he's always seemed plenty clever whenever I've been in games with him. If the mafia were able to talk to each other prior to the game it could easily have been a collective plan. If it is a mafia ploy there would have to be some other, unknown ability or result that they hope to achieve for this to pay the surviving members benefits. As it is it does not pay well to try this if he were mafia.
Please explain how that is not trying to promote the possibility that Justus could be scum? Gratis said 'he's not clever enough to do this as scum'. You said 'he is plenty clever whenever I've been in games with him'. You went on to further extrapolate about mafia talking prior to the game(something that there is no reason for you to assume would have been possible, since the game started during the day), etc. You are clearly implying that Justus could be scum here, I can't see how you can possibly deny this.
****Ok. Follow me here.
I state that, from my experience with him in prior games, I think Justus is smart.
I state that what Gram was describing “could be possible“, if the mafia could day talk. Something that is very unlikely and that there is no evidence for at that time.
I state that there would rally need to be some other, unknown reason for a mafia player to do what Gram had speculated about Justus doing, because it would be sacrificing a member for a reason we did not know to achieve something that made no sense.
Finally I state that this type of action would not pay if he were mafia.
Please, please tell me how you get that I am saying he is scummy here?
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?????
This is the second post in a row that you misread.
I said that I thought Justus would be better then a random lynch or a mislynched townie but I did not think that he should be our lynch choice and that we should continue to look for more suspicious targets. I NEVER said that we should not let Ljustus live. I said that if we could not find a more suspicious target then he should be our fall back lynch for the reason Ljustus himself gave for why the town would gain by him being lynched. I even state that the three players I think are the more suspicious, at this point, are Fade, CP and Cyan.
Can you just not read your own posts? You flatly refer to LJustus as a fall-back lynch. That is pretty obviously saying that we should not let him live. You further extrapolate on that by suggesting 3 investigation targets for him. But one of those targets can only be investigated if LJustus dies in the first place. Honestly, I can't get your argument(s) here. Your statements are here, plain as day, for anyone to read.
***A fall back lynch is something that is done only if all other possible avenues have been exhausted. I clearly state that we should pursue other, better targets and exhaust then before we consider looking to lynch Ljustus. I said that clearly in my post and I said so clearly in my response.
AbbyGargoyle is right. Reading is TECH.
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Players of the game. PLEASE read my post and read cyan’s analysis of it. Is this really what happened or is my post consistent with what I had been saying and pursuing at that point in the game? I had waited a fair period of time to see if Cyan would address the Case Grak presented against him and based on his ignoring that case I voted for him. A vote in agreement with points in the case and to pressure Cyan to address the case. This is pretty self evident.
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I can understand how Cyan would be unable to catch my meaning here. Axelrod, voted for Ljustus with a single phrase, vote: ljustus. I found the fact that he did not comment or post any other information or reasoning to be very unlike Axelrod. I parodied his conciseness by questioning his reason for voting with an even more concise “why?” question.
My point is that 'Why' should be obvious. LJustus specifically asked for people to vote for him, and said that he would get a free investigation upon his death. Then Axelrod votes him. Again, the 'why' here is ridiculously obvious. Your question here to Axel makes no sense. Of course, if you're scum, then you are pinning someone that you know to not be scum to a specific attack on someone else that you know to not be scum. That makes plenty of sense. So, here, your actions ONLY make sense from a scum perspective.
****Do you REALLY think that, at this point in the game, it was in the interest of the town to lynch a player who had just claimed to be town and that we would get a free investigation from his death? Wouldn’t it be better to keep that free investigation saved for a point when we had a specific good target to maximize the sacrifice of a townie? There was NO compelling reason to not believe Ljustus at that moment and NO compelling reason to lynch him just to use his ability. I wanted to see if Axe had a compelling reason to do this and also to see if he thought Ljustus might be lying.
Again, please read my post. I think it is very clear. Ljustus claimed to have a valuable ability that would be of use to the town. An ability that would come into play when he is lynched. Some players then launched a campaign to do just that and lynch Ljustus for little more then the reason to use that ability even though we really did not have a compelling reason to do that at that time. It is obvious that Ljustus wanted to get a consensus that he should be allowed to hammer himself when the time came to lynch him so he could ensure that there was no misinterpretation of what would happen or what we would receive from his investigation. I commented that I thought Axe’s post worked towards making that happen at that time rather then saving the ability for a much more advantageous moment. This concept of saving an extra investigation for a time that could be possible be selected by the town or at least coached to Ljustus so that we maximized it should have been obvious to a player of Axe’s caliber and I found that also odd.
NONE of this is even remotely 'made clear' in the post in question. Nowhere do you say anything about saving the investigation for later when it's benefit can be 'maximized'. Talk about revisionist history. Besides, the concept that you are saying is 'so obvious' is a logical fallacy, because it is unlikely that a better time to willingly lynch a townie will come up beyond Day 1.
***This is untrue. Day one was now where near being over. There was a definite reason not to lynch him at this moment and to continue the day to look for either a better lynch candidate or to identify a specific target to use the ability on if we were going to fall back to lynching ljustus and to maximize his ability. Ljustus was expressing his desire to be allowed to be the hammering vote on himself when we had done that and it had been decided that we should lynch him and use his ability. The rush to lynch ljustus just to use his ability, at that time, was what I spoke against.
I stand by my post and by my response to it.
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I found Axe to, again, have posted in a manner that I considered uncharacteristic. Axe is normally a very thorough player and not one to miss an obvious point. It seemed to me that his list of possibilities left off several obvious ones. I questioned that. When I see some players miss obvious points I have to consider it typical. When I see certain players, Axelrod is one of them, miss obvious points it is not typical and thus worth noting.
The real meat of my post was that I summarized my thoughts about Ljustus and why I was voting for Cyan. Interesting, Cyan missed this large and obvious point.
My point is that you accuse Axelrod of leaving off 'possibilities', but those 'possibilities' are so unlikely that it's obvious why he didn't list them. Beyond that, in your own further explanation, you go out of your way to state that any possibilities that you don't list you left off on purpose. So, why is it that you can do this, but Axelrod cannot? This is egregious hypocrisy.
**I never said that I have not done this. I said that in this incidence and in this context, I found that fact that Axe was not more though and did not look at other possibilities in his post to be suspicious. I still do.
I stand by this post and my original one.
And I didn't miss the fact that you further explained your vote on me, it just wasn't worth commenting on.
snap.
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You are spitting hairs here. You also completely, again ignore the main part of this post. I directly, again, explained why you should respond to the case Grak posted against you and I quoted the post you made where you say you don’t know why you said you would address it. The fact remains that for a great deal of time you ignored the case and when repeatedly asked to do so you did say that you would. You then tried to ignore it again and finally said that you would not. How many times over how many posts and time have you refused to answer the case against you? When you said that you would address it , then refused to do so, how long, how many posts and how much time pasted before you finally did respond?
Not only does this response have NOTHING to do with the post that I made, I fail to see what it has to do with anything at all at this juncture. You have pointed out, time and again, that I said I Would respond to Grakthis' PBPA but then didn't. Congratulations, you got me. I honestly felt like the situation with LJustus should be allowed to play out first. People disagreed, so then I responded. Whatever point you're trying to make here seems to be woefully pointless.
***Wow. This is incredibly weak.
So much so that I will only say look act the actual posts and judge for yourself folks. I stand by my original posts, all of the many that asked for Cyan to address that PBPA and why he refused to. I also stand by my response.
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Cyan, think about what you are saying here. You have insinuated I am scummy for nearly the entire game. For 80 percent of that time you did not post clear reasons for these insinuations, even though I asked you nearly every time you did it to provide those reasons. Now that you have completed what you, yourself, called a daunting task of doing a PBPA of my then 88 posts. I’m sure it took you a while to compile it. You are trying to use it to prove your point and I am responding with my defense of those points. I have real problems with most of the statements and interpretations you have made regarding my posts and I am including them into my responses. Some of that is in the form of questions to you that you are now openly refusing to answer. You have on at least three occasions urged the group to forgo my response and simply lynch me without reading my rebuttal and here you are openly saying I should stop responding at all.
Sorry, but I will finish this response before the weekend in out and I will also continue to answer any current questions directed to me. Once I am done showing how wrong you are I will then turn to several key points in the game to analyze the posts and to scrutinizing specific players who have come up in my review of the posts you have misrepresented.
By all means continue to try to get me lynched before that happens though.
Good luck.
You have to realize that none of your arguments mean anything to me. In my mind, you are scum. There is a vast amount of evidence to support this, and nothing is going to change my mind on this point. From my perspective, as I have said REPEATEDLY, you are baiting me into this long, drawn out battle in hopes of finding some relatively meaningless point to try and strawman. I already see this happening at certain points in your responses.
****Cyan, think about this. If you had responded to any of the first five times I had asked you to post why you “found something suspicious about that post by HAWKEYE7” but did not say what it was. We might not have had to endure this game long sniping by you or this grueling exchange. I could have explained what I meant at that time. We. Possibly, could have moved on. You did not do this. You deliberately ignored those requests.
If you had responded to my next 10 requests that you say why you thought any of my posts were suspicious but did not offer a specific reason, we might also have avoided this.
If you had responded to any of the near dozen requests for you to respond to Graks’ PBPA of you or to not have backed down and refused to honor your statement that you would answer that PBPA, we could have possibly have avoided this.
This entire situation is a result of your game long stonewalling not me baiting you. I would never had to do it or try to shame you into backing up your words if you had stood up and been accountable at a dozen different points earlier in the game.
don’t cry about the spilled milk when you spilled it.
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As I have said so many times during this game Cyan, you have no idea why I posted in the manner that I did. I have also stated directly and indirectly that I did it deliberately and for a reason.
Of course you are. And of course, you have made no effort to provide a real explanation for this. Considering that you are a mere couple of votes from lynch, it seems to me that, if you actually are/were town, you would be largely more forthcoming than you are being here.
***A technique is a technique, and if you had not stonewalled all game I probably would not have done it as much or targeted you.
I don’t want to continue this exchange either.
I did not want to even post this response except that I was afraid you would simply say I was lying.
I will only say this once more. If you had addressed the points against you as they were made, we would most likely not be where we are. If you had answered the questions as they were asked, we would most likely not be here.
For a townie, if you are going to be lynched it is essential that you try to make sure that you maximize the amount of useful information that can be drawn from your lynch.
As it is I’m fine with being today’s lynch as long as it does not put us too close to lynch or loose. In which case, I regret that those town players who have witnessed me in the grips of writers madness did not step in and talk me off the ledge before this.
Clearly, I can’t be trusted to stop myself once the madness takes hold and there’s blood in the water.
Sorry.
I really don’t think that my ability will have any impact on the game since the apparent demise of the cult.
So I’m effectively a townie with an ability that probably won’t help the town any more.
I have already started. It is very interesting how scum react to me when I play as I did early.
It follows a pattern.
It is also very interesting how they react to an exchange like the one Cyan and I have engaged in.
Say for example Cyan is a townie, what would a typical mafia player do when two townies are ripping into each other?
There are also several other game events that need to be looked into as well as the known scum interplay.
Give me till Tuesday night to do this and post anything I come up with.
I have family from out of state in visiting this weekend, which will take away from analysis time.
If I finish before that I'll post what I have.
Calvin & Hobbs Mafia, Mafia MVP
X-Men Mafia Town MVP
Simpson's Mafia - best use of character
Mtgnews Mafia Mafia - Town Madman
Mythos Mafia: the Dunwich Massacre Town MVP
English Literature Mafia Town MVP
Best Role-Playing Sin City Mafia
Werewolf Mafia - Mafia MVP
Doctor Mafia - Mafia MVP
Mafia: Escape from the Cylons - Town MVP
Lost Mafia - Co SK Winner with Kops
Random Mafia 3 - Town MVP