Sigh. I'll do it for everyone. @Mod : Are we free to change our avatars, any time we want, to anything we want, including the Smith avatar, without needing a special permission or order ?
Wow, that was hard. Took me a lot of efforts and courage.
I think the default answer is yes. Notice that I've used two avvys over the course of the game (the cartoony Smith avvy from "The Matrix Has You" and my normal gas mask avvy, respectively) without any problems. I think it has more to do with ability-specific conditions for certain players.
So, Pigeon, you're arguing Azrael couldn't have done things the way he did ? That's incredibly weak. Saying "I still think that you're hiding something" is great and all, but not actually informative in any way. Humor aside, what do I have left that I could be hiding ? My cup-size ? Finally, you're tiring with the claiming scum affair. I guess proving a fourth of fifth time the similarity you're seeing doesn't exist won't help, I've been talking to a deaf wall from the beginning.
1) No, I'm arguing that the way Az did something implies something fishy, which you have yet to explain.
2) You could have any number of a billion things still hidden. The one I'm most worried about is that the fact that you got the same role PM as Vampyr clearly fails to mean that you have the same role - this means that you could have any role, including that of a scum, and we would not have any way to know it. Frankly, the 'role info' we have about you is about as reliable as a Nova.
3) You're concept of a "proof" is fairly laughable. All my points on this subject stand.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
ZDS, as the watcher, has already given us his two results. CP, are you trying to say that this behavior is scummy ? Unless (or until) we can prove ZDS is lying with his role, I can hardly see any reason to attack him. And I'm really not sure about Hawkeye. Could be scum with Loran, I say. So vote stands, for now.
@Mod : Are we free to change our avatars, any time we want, to anything we want, including the Smith avatar, without needing a special permission or order ?
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In addition to these rules, players should also be aware that Matrix Mafia may or may not require certain cosmetic changes to your account in order to continue to play. Do not sign up unless you are prepared to accommodate these purely hypothetical changes...
Unless instructed otherwise, players may change their avatars at any time.
Because at the time I posted that I had been up over 20 hours, I was tired and I wanted to see if DYH would respond or actually try to do as I had asked. If he had I would have been able to explain the entire thing better by using his results to illustrate where I was right or wrong.
Ah, I mistaken your meaning then. I thought you meant 'tomorrow' as in 'Day 4'.
@CP: If you are thinking loran is the default lynch, what exactly do you hope to gain by pressuring Hawkeye further?
Well, I'm back and I'm gonna take the rest of today (real time, hopefully not game time) to re-read what I missed over the week-end. I'll have something by monday with any luck...
"Back in the USSR" Vote Count
1 Alx- ZDS
4 Hawkeye7- Charm_Master, Cyan, CP, Spoon
5 Loran16- Abbeygargoyle, grakthis, J-Effe IV, Dagger, Axelrod
1 AbbeyGargoyle - Alx2
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I'm still confused by the whole game, and a reread got me dizzy. Honestly, I would really like to simplify this game by eliminating some unknowns.
Anyway, an attempt on my part to at least compile some info:
1. Loran16
A decent case has been put up against him. I've agreed with some points, disagreed with others. He's also given some reasonable responses. He hasn't claimed yet, has he? I'm in favor of pursuing this avenue.
2. Spoon
Still quite an unknown. Appears to be a gimmick of a regular player, but I'm not sure who. I don't even know if I can cross off players who are already in the game as possibilities. Apparently needs to vote in blue. I've seen some townish posts, but I'm tempted to pursue this line just to figure out what's up.
3. Fadeblue
Already known to be a recruited cultist, and claims to have reverted to townie (obviously I believe this claim). Also claims to be a nullifier.
*Personally, I'm wary of those who are trying to claim I'm scum, because it should be pretty clear by the way I came forward that I'm not (this would be WIFOM to the extreme). I particularly don't like Pod arguing that the nullifier ability is something that belongs on a Cult Leader, for reasons including atlseal's investigation and the fact that it would mean the leader is recruiting AND has a nullifying ability (and apparently has not even used that ability).
4. Rafaelk
I'm always going to be skeptical of Raf. So far, I've seen more of "townie Raf" than "scum Raf," but I'm definitely not discarding the possibility of Raf being mafia, or even SK.
5. Axelrod
Claims John Connor, and has support from Cyan's claim. However, I've disagreed with a lot of his logic, particularly in recent posts - though I do agree with him that we may able to get some info from the Hvir and LJustus/Cyan incidents. The claim looks fairly solid, but I note that Cyan was given no explicit guarantee of Axel's alignment. Even if Cyan is town, there's still a possibility of a scum Axel. I just know that I like the idea - if it's not true in this game, I'm definitely setting it aside for possible use in a future game.
6. J-Effe IV (Replacing Wizzpig)
I didn't like some of Wizzpig's and J-Effe's posts, but I'm accepting some other opinions out there that have been voiced about them. J-Effe has also committed himself to producing an obvious town role, which if he fails to do at a later point in the game, means I'm voting him. I believe it unlikely that a scum in that position is going to make the statement that he did.
7. Hawkeye7
Apparently has a role that involves him not being able to change his avatar, and may have some RP restriction. What doesn't make sense is his assumption that everyone else has the same restriction, when no part of the rules ever said so. I find it unlikely that a scum would act the way he did, but it still doesn't make much sense for a townie, or even a neutral. Simply put, I have no idea what Hawkeye was thinking there, but I do know that it gave me a bad vibe.
8. Grakthis
So far has been acting like a townie, though I do admit that I'm unfamiliar with his regular play (as either scum or town). Has given verification of the mysterious slice of cake. Also claimed some ability that can remove the -2 to lynch disadvantage.
9. Alx2
Has claimed some kind of circumstantial rolename cop. I give him townie points because this is an odd play for scum, unless he really thought he could get atlseal lynched on that alone (and I think Alx is smarter than that). Still, I don't like some of the flavor arguments he's been making (re: DYH and Vampyr), as well as some mod gaming.
10. Abbeygargoyle
To be honest, he's had few memorable posts, which potentially indicates an attempt to stay under the radar. Though he did post some analysis on loran, and since I'm leaning towards a loran wagon, I'll give him some townie credit for now. But I'd be especially interested in looking at AG if loran happens to be town.
11. Cyan
We've already gone over how scummy Cyan is (as always). But his T-800 claim is in his favor, even though I still feel there's something fishy going on with that whole mechanic (but that doesn't necessarily mean it's Cyan's role in particular that's fishy).
12. Xyre
I haven't liked a lot of his play, and I don't think his Spoon Boy claim really does that much for him, especially since it's a vague claim, and the spoons apparently don't do what he thought they do. However, Axel (and ZDS) has confirmed a spoon, and his claim of being roleblocked is supported by Grak.
13. ZDS
Claimed mason that has gained a watcher ability. I don't know what to make of that. I haven't seen his play as problematic (at least not in the early part of the game), and is supposedly confirmed as town by Vampyr (via the initial mason PM).
14. Pod
Several of his posts have given me a townie vibe. I already pointed out his flawed argument about me being CL, but I can see that as just him not thinking through it properly.
15. Vampyr
The other mason. His behavior is consistent with this, and his reaction after Kraj's false claim of recruiting ZDS struck me as townish.
16. Carrion Pigeons
I'm suspicious of CP. I've disagreed with several of his posts, and the way he played out his multivote strikes me as non-townish. As far as I can tell, his role is unbalanced on a scum, but he may have some other restrictions which would make it possible.
17. Dagger
Claimed some kind of continuous ability. Said he targeted Cyan and Axel so far. Cyan apparently has not suffered negative effects. Much like AG, he hasn't had many memorable posts.
18. revolving role
I still think Sutherlands was a bit scummy on D1. Charm has been a bit better, but his info vomit and the claim itself are bad. It's still very possible that one (or all) of the players in the role are scum. Charm says he's required to include a vote count in every post, which doesn't seem to quite add up the way it's been played (and also means Az is allowing EBWODPs to count, which is admittedly possible). I'm very tempted to eliminate this role to help simplify the game.
19. Atlseal
Claimed Cheshire Cat, with a lynch drawback and JOAT abilities (which are all questionable flavorwise). Has used an inspection to catch Kraj. Seems to have a vanishing ability triggered presumably by a daykill attempt. No evidence yet has indicated that he is town.
I may have missed some details or claim info. Please point them out.
Indeed. Now would be the time to be putting down a vote.
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Yeah. I'll probably be voting loran, but I'd prefer to give reasons then vote rather than vote then give reasons, which means finding time to chase up why it was I wanted to look at loran :/
I wonder... On the previous days, votes were accumulating a lot more quicker. (even though players were dropping them after the claims). I know that people will say that they don't find Hawkeye or Loran suspicious, and that is why they do not vote him, but on day 1, there were scum voting and "helping us" to lynch ; today, they are not (or so I think), from which I conclude that Loran (and probably Hawkeye) are both scum. We just need to focus on one or the other.
Not quite terrible logic, IMHO. There's one other person I'd like to really look at, however, right now I only seem to be getting a really strong gut feeling about it, so I've really been trying to find out why I feel that way. However, of the two wagons that are currently being debated:
loran - Definitely some good points, and his desire to lynch me Day 2 after I gave out my results doesn't speak to well, either.
Hawkeye - I've found a lot of his avatar speculation a bit more than suspicious. Like fade stated, I don't see why he'd assume other people have to coincide with what he's been doing. If I had to guess, I'd say his character is the one behind the flavor spreading thing that affected Vamp and DYH. The way they were acting, there definitely seemed to be some bad side if they didn't follow what was needed.
Vote: Hawkeye
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If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
I wonder... On the previous days, votes were accumulating a lot more quicker. (even though players were dropping them after the claims). I know that people will say that they don't find Hawkeye or Loran suspicious, and that is why they do not vote him, but on day 1, there were scum voting and "helping us" to lynch ; today, they are not (or so I think), from which I conclude that Loran (and probably Hawkeye) are both scum. We just need to focus on one or the other.
Errrr whaaa? Im a bit confused here....
I've been less than active recently in all my games, but a slow down in posting by me (or anyone else for that matter) doesnt make me scummy. Heck, what the hell do you mean by "scum voting"? What does that even mean?
If you're saying you think i made scummy votes on day 1, but not after that and that makes me more scummy? errrr. Man, im confused..
----------------------------
Sidenote, can someone explain why hawkeye is scummy? Yeah, he's confused the hell out of me, but that's not necessarily a scum tell, and all im hearing from people is that its "bad vibes".
Anyone?
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Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
I'm not trying to put suspicion on the masons or anything, and I'm normally the first person to stick up for people who vouch for each other, but what is effectively two pairs of people who can vouch for each other concerns me.
Have you learned nothing from DotA? Multiple people able to vouch for each other seems to be the "in" thing.
I've been less than active recently in all my games, but a slow down in posting by me (or anyone else for that matter) doesnt make me scummy. Heck, what the hell do you mean by "scum voting"? What does that even mean?
If you're saying you think i made scummy votes on day 1, but not after that and that makes me more scummy? errrr. Man, im confused..
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Sidenote, can someone explain why hawkeye is scummy? Yeah, he's confused the hell out of me, but that's not necessarily a scum tell, and all im hearing from people is that its "bad vibes".
Anyone?
For the part above the dotted line, I don't get a scummy feel from your lack of posting. It does come across to me as trying to fly under the radar, but that in and of itself I don't take as a scum tell.
Below the dotted line, I feel the same way. HE has confused me some, but I get nother scum nor town feelings from him.
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Current Soul Collector count: 184
PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
Matrix Mafia Town MVP
Medieval Mafia Mafia MVP
Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
Well... I deleted them. I remember after Alx2 started going after AG I wrote one post criticizing you, but other than that I don't remember. What does matter is that my gut hasn't liked your play but I trust your claim.
Quote from Fadeblue »
2. Spoon
Still quite an unknown. Appears to be a gimmick of a regular player, but I'm not sure who. I don't even know if I can cross off players who are already in the game as possibilities. Apparently needs to vote in blue. I've seen some townish posts, but I'm tempted to pursue this line just to figure out what's up.
I believe that I remain an unknown is in the town's best interest.
Quote from Fadeblue »
19. Atlseal
Claimed Cheshire Cat, with a lynch drawback and JOAT abilities (which are all questionable flavorwise). Has used an inspection to catch Kraj. Seems to have a vanishing ability triggered presumably by a daykill attempt. No evidence yet has indicated that he is town.
I just realized that the disappearance of Atlseal fits perfectly with his Cheshire Cat claim, which means that now he's a JOAT with a crappy lynch drawback and a kill dodging ability. Does anyone else see this as rather unlikely?
Sidenote, can someone explain why hawkeye is scummy? Yeah, he's confused the hell out of me, but that's not necessarily a scum tell, and all im hearing from people is that its "bad vibes".
Anyone?
If Loran turns up scum today, we can pretty much mark Hawkeye as town.
I find it highly unlikely someone with Loran's style would post this directed at a team mate.
he's saying that JoaT with (presumably) kill immunity and a lynch drawback (which I still haven't seen today, IIRC...) seems a bit too much for a game, and I'm inclined to agree, and Hawkeye's wagon isn't going anywhere. FoS atlseal, which may upgrade to a vote depending on how Hawk gives his take on things...
The "rush to buy school supplies" votecount
1 Alx- ZDS
5 Hawkeye7- Charm_Master, Cyan, CP, Spoon, atlseal
5 Loran16- Abbeygargoyle, grakthis, J-Effe IV, Dagger, Axelrod
1 AbbeyGargoyle - Alx2
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@HAWKEYE7: Maybe you haven't noticed, but I've had my avatar changed for a while now since you asked. I figured if you were so focused on it that you might actually be checking, but I guess not. (And yes, I specifically asked "permission" from Az to humor you.) But I don't think whatever information you think you have based on your role PM is what you think it is, because if you think that Az is going to 1) require everyone in the game to follow a very arbitrary rule that affects us outside of this forum, and 2) do so without offering any kind of explanation, or even telling people that this requirement exists, you're insane.
As a matter of fact, I did not notice it. I’m not sure when you did it but if you had pointed it out when you had it may have saved me from continuing on. Then again if you were trying to see how far I would go and in what direction with the line of thinking I was perusing, then I can understand waiting. Thanks for pointing it out to me though.
Apparently, I was wrong in the assumptions I had made based on my role and the answers I got to certain questions I made to Azrael. I believed that only under very specific circumstance would players be allowed to change their avatars and after Kraj was gone that the fact that DYH started sporting the Agent Smith Avatar and began at that point role playing was an indication that the Agent Smith Cult did not die with Kraj but continued on with DYH and likely he was being controlled by another player.
Hawkeye's acting dodgey and cryptic, and I'd vote him on principal if he didn't always act like that. Some of the things he said to Hvir and DYH don't sit well with me, though. Insisting that Hvir should have picked up on the location hints that HE7 dropped doesn't seem correct. And where he got the idea that DYH was being controlled is beyond me. Blood Moon mafia, maybe?
Aw, what the heck. I'm willing to see where this goes. Vote HAWKEYE7.
I still think that had I had Hvir’s role and someone had made the references that I had, I would have made some posts to indicate that the thoughts on movement were possibly worth pursuing. I think that Hvir, in my option, misplayed this, but that opinion is based only on the information that I have. It is quite possible that I do not have the information that makes it understandable why he did not do that.
As for DYH, I still believe it is very possible that he was being controlled. We ill have to wait to see if I’m wrong on that.
Sigh. I'll do it for everyone. @Mod : Are we free to change our avatars, any time we want, to anything we want, including the Smith avatar, without needing a special permission or order ?
Wow, that was hard. Took me a lot of efforts and courage.
Quote from Signup Thread »
In addition to these rules, players should also be aware that Matrix Mafia may or may not require certain cosmetic changes to your account in order to continue to play. Do not sign up unless you are prepared to accommodate these purely hypothetical changes.
Unless instructed otherwise, players may change their avatars at any time.
Thank you ZDS, you are right, that should not have been such an ordeal to do. I wish someone had done that when I first asked.
Thank you Azrael for clearly stating something I had clearly misinterpreted.
I find the votes against me as interesting. Very few have any real suspicions and try as I might I can't seem to provoke a real bandwagon to form, let alone posts that commit players to positions that are not heavily hedged.
Well, I don't really see how this changes things things. DYH wasn't high on anyone's list for being scum or town, that I know of, except HE7. Whether or not this makes HE7 more or less likely to be the daykiller is complete WIFOM, I think; any argument you make is just going to be followed with, "Yeah, but maybe that's what the SK wants us to think."
At this point, I would not be unhappy with a loran lynch, which seems to be popular. I'd also be fine with a ZDS lynch, which seems less popular, but he's being way too secretive IMO to be trustworthy. HE7 might also deserve some pressure, at least. He's claimed to know some things based on his role PM that I suspect are being misrepresented somehow; it could be worth exploring that and seeing how scummy it turns out to be.
On that final note, unvote, vote HAWKEYE7.
“Oh, well, I guess I’ll vote for Hawkeye7. Maybe he will tell us what his role pm says.” I don’t really see you committing yourself here. If you want me to claim why not come out and say that?
Hawkeye's acting dodgey and cryptic, and I'd vote him on principal if he didn't always act like that. Some of the things he said to Hvir and DYH don't sit well with me, though. Insisting that Hvir should have picked up on the location hints that HE7 dropped doesn't seem correct. And where he got the idea that DYH was being controlled is beyond me. Blood Moon mafia, maybe?
Aw, what the heck. I'm willing to see where this goes. Vote HAWKEYE7.
This is an interesting vote. Spoon you do not know me well enough to say whether or not I always act like that or not. If you did know me you would know that I clear do not act that way always. This strikes me as implying that you have some credibility that you really do not have. The statement that the things I said about Hvir and DYH don’t sit well with you also come a crossed as opportunistic to me. How would you have any idea whether I was right or wrong regarding DYH? I came up with a theory that avatar changing and the possibility that a player could be controlled by another player based on information I had, what I read about fade’s recruitment experience, answers I got to questions I asked Azrael and looking at the changes in game play by DYH and his changing his avatar. Remember this post?
My voice is no longer my own- my vote should not be counted. Anyone can change their avatar, Hawkeye.
I posted a case against DYH based on that theory and tried to get information to confirm or dismiss that case/theory. If you disagree with me why did you not post anything regarding this up to this point? Why did you not question me about any portion of my posts directed at DYH?
So, after posting for so long that Loran was the default lynch for the day, agreeing with RafK and drifting from one target to another you have decided that me being cryptic and dodgy, which you claim is how I always act and that some of the things I have said about Hvir and DYH form the basis of a legitimate vote of me by you?
Hawkeye - I've found a lot of his avatar speculation a bit more than suspicious. Like fade stated, I don't see why he'd assume other people have to coincide with what he's been doing. If I had to guess, I'd say his character is the one behind the flavor spreading thing that affected Vamp and DYH. The way they were acting, there definitely seemed to be some bad side if they didn't follow what was needed.
Vote: Hawkeye
No implied knowledge or familiarity that you don’t possess to try to add credibility to your vote.
While I don’t agree with your vote, I find the fact that you posted a solid reason, clearly why you are voting for me to be to your credit.
It took me until the "cue the sun" bit to finally realize who Hawkeye is...and I'm also confused why you're in the Matrix, Mr. Truman...We've had enough outside roles, and this is one even I can't link to the Matrix...Vote Hawkeye
So, you are voting for me solely on you assuming you know who my role is and that you can’t see them in the matrix? This on it’s own is an extremely weak reason especially considering what we have in the way of claimed and assumed roles in this game so far. Since you made this post you have made 10 posts in this game and the original content of all of them combined equals approximately 4 sentences. Would you care to post something pertinent to the game? Also what are your thoughts on the bandwagon on me and your reasons for still being a part of it. You do realize that you are still voting for me right/ since more then half of the posts you have made since voting for me have had a vote count in it or consisted solely of a vote count.
Vote Hawkeye. I don't know what it is, but something in the antagonistic nature of that post(and a lot of his posts this game) comes across as very non-town to me.
Plus, the whole 'All this is probably going to get me killed tonight' might as well be the #1 scum cliche in the game of mafia.
I have already posted my thoughts on Cyan’s vote.
As it is, of the people voting for me, the person I see as most likely to be a mafia trying to hide, by resting his vote on a bandwagon that does not seem to be going anywhere, and not push or overly commit to that bandwagon to be Spoon.
A closer look at the content of his posts is warranted imo.
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This is an interesting vote. Spoon you do not know me well enough to say whether or not I always act like that or not.
How do you know that?
I'm personally convinced that Spoon is Crippled_Fist or CropCircles or both of them at once (both of them have activity in the last 24 hours, incidentally, despite the fact that neither has posted on the site in months), and I've been reading him/them accordingly. Do you reckon those two would know your play well enough to read it that way?
This is an interesting vote. Spoon you do not know me well enough to say whether or not I always act like that or not.
k.
If you did know me you would know that I clear do not act that way always.
Maybe not always, but I've seen you act cryptic and dodgey enough times before that I don't see it as much of a tell from you.
This strikes me as implying that you have some credibility that you really do not have. The statement that the things I said about Hvir and DYH don’t sit well with you also come a crossed as opportunistic to me. How would you have any idea whether I was right or wrong regarding DYH?
Because the idea that DYH was being controlled by someone else seems ludicrous. I guess it is possible that DYH was under duress, but going after him based almost entirely on that is crazy.
I came up with a theory that avatar changing and the possibility that a player could be controlled by another player based on information I had, what I read about fade’s recruitment experience, answers I got to questions I asked Azrael and looking at the changes in game play by DYH and his changing his avatar.
Ok. I guess my problem is just that I think you interpreted these things badly. It's certainly possible that you just misinterpreted some PMs from Azrael, though.
Quote from HAWKEYE7 »
Remember this post?
Quote from DYH »
My voice is no longer my own- my vote should not be counted. Anyone can change their avatar, Hawkeye.
I assumed at the time (and still believe) that this was just a way to role-play saying that he had to proxy his vote again once he'd changed back to his original avatar.
Quote from HAWKEYE7 »
I posted a case against DYH based on that theory and tried to get information to confirm or dismiss that case/theory. If you disagree with me why did you not post anything regarding this up to this point? Why did you not question me about any portion of my posts directed at DYH?
While you were asking questions, I thought it best to let you have your answers before going further. I like to let people be the judge of their own information.
Shortly after you got your answers (or at least some of them), DYH was killed. It was at that point that I decided that the way you were acting based on the information you had was dumb.
Quote from HAWKEYE »
So, after posting for so long that Loran was the default lynch for the day, agreeing with RafK and drifting from one target to another you have decided that me being cryptic and dodgy, which you claim is how I always act and that some of the things I have said about Hvir and DYH form the basis of a legitimate vote of me by you?
I was agreeing with CP (not RafK) and commented on why I agreed with the subjects that he'd brought up in his previous post. I didn't intend to jump from target to target. I then voted you because I thought your case on DYH was absurdly founded and lacking sense, and therefore could easily have something else behind it.
Anyway, I got the main answer I was looking for by voting you, which was what you were thinking when you voted DYH.
Quote from HAWKEYE7 »
Apparently, I was wrong in the assumptions I had made based on my role and the answers I got to certain questions I made to Azrael. I believed that only under very specific circumstance would players be allowed to change their avatars and after Kraj was gone that the fact that DYH started sporting the Agent Smith Avatar and began at that point role playing was an indication that the Agent Smith Cult did not die with Kraj but continued on with DYH and likely he was being controlled by another player.
That quote makes me think it's more likely that you just messed up and anything more sinister was going on. I still don't think there was enough information there to make that leap, but then again I don't have your role or the PMs from Azrael.
So unvote, vote atlseal. That vote is stay there until I get an explanation for his disappearing act. A JOAT with a botched drawback and a kill dodging ability is just too much for me.
I don't think atlseal can be mafia-scum with his role (that is, if he's really a jack). At worst, he could be neutral (survivor makes sense). In any case, atl, it'd be good if you could use some of your other abilities, to confirm your jackness.
This is something I don't think that we will ever be able to prove for certain unless he is dead. Jack is too easy a thing for a couple of mafiosi feeding atlseal info to help him fake.That being said, I find it hard to call the role inherently scum anymore due to his apparent kill dodging, but with the amount of kills running around, it isn't out of the question.
We probably won't know for certain until we find a dead scum, and I still believe that loran is the best avenue for doing so.
So unvote, vote atlseal. That vote is stay there until I get an explanation for his disappearing act. A JOAT with a botched drawback and a kill dodging ability is just too much for me.
See, I'm kind of looking at this the other way. We know he's not the day-killer b/c day-killer tried to kill him. Not Cult for obvious reasons. So if you think he's scum you pretty much would have to think he was Mafia. He did, however, demonstrate a Cop ability. So, do you think he's Mafia, with the ability to find out someone else's role and the ability to dodge a Day-kill? Not to mention the fact that he's claimed other abilities that could be tested out (vig/RB).
Yes, he could be fake-claiming and the abilities could just be all the collective Mafia abilities. But that's pretty wild, to claim a role that would require the cooperation of all your Mafia buddies to prove out. That severely limits the ability of the Mafia to do what they actually want with said abilities.
Case in point: investigation used up on Athos, the biggest lurker in the game. Nothing like a threat to the Mafia. I'm sure they would much rather have found out the role of someone who was actually playing, or someone they thought they might have trouble getting lynched. You could argue that he did it strictly to look more townie and just got lucky, but I think you would be stretching to reach a conclusion you already want to believe, as opposed to being objective. Until he does something more suspicious, I'm satisfied with atlseal.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I am not planning on voting for ATL, nor do I plan to anytime soon, but a few things need ot be commented on.
1) It's good game design to give the mafia a way to dodge random kills from the SK and vice versus. Because nothing screws up a game more than having the mafia and SK randomly cross kill early on.
2) ATL did not post his smiley face yesterday as near as I can find. So why is he alive?
3) I was in a game where as long as a specific player was alive, we (the mafia) were given a 1-shot night kill protection. If the SK is a daykiller, it would not be odd for that to be a 1-shot day-kill protection.
Maybe I missed this, but did ATL choose not to use any abilities last night? I don't remember him saying one way or the other.
Given the above issues, ATL def. needs to provide some kind of explanation for his dodge of the kill attempt yesterday.
Hawk, that's a fair defense, enough to warrant a Unvote hawkeye. I thought about it and realized that Truman show does hold quite a bit of similarity to the Matrix.
you think everything is perfect, only to find out that you're just a pawn and everything you've known was a lie. Same principle applies to F451, now that I think about it...
which makes the terminator mythos seem the odd man out, but DYH proved that we have that in here...weird. I'm kind of at a loss here...I may have to re-read D1 and today...
The "lulz I don't have school yet" votecount
5 Loran16- Abbeygargoyle, grakthis, J-Effe IV, Dagger, Axelrod
4 Hawkeye7- Charm_Master, Cyan, CP, atlseal
1 Alx- ZDS
1 atlseal- Spoon
1 AbbeyGargoyle - Alx2
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EBWOP: Also, does the Cheshire cat make sense as a mafia member? I mean, at this point we KNOW he is the Cheshire cat. But we don't know anything about the makeup of the mafia.
I am not planning on voting for ATL, nor do I plan to anytime soon, but a few things need ot be commented on.
1) It's good game design to give the mafia a way to dodge random kills from the SK and vice versus. Because nothing screws up a game more than having the mafia and SK randomly cross kill early on.
2) ATL did not post his smiley face yesterday as near as I can find. So why is he alive?
3) I was in a game where as long as a specific player was alive, we (the mafia) were given a 1-shot night kill protection. If the SK is a daykiller, it would not be odd for that to be a 1-shot day-kill protection.
Maybe I missed this, but did ATL choose not to use any abilities last night? I don't remember him saying one way or the other.
Given the above issues, ATL def. needs to provide some kind of explanation for his dodge of the kill attempt yesterday.
That, however, is something that needs to be explained.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Now that i think about it, I'm a bit curious too, especially with regards to the dates Atl posted earlier. At the time i thought he was coding information from his role somehow, but i thought he'd already used his jack info?
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Vote Count without a witty title
6 Loran16- Abbeygargoyle, grakthis, J-Effe IV, Dagger, Axelrod, ZDS
4 Hawkeye7- Charm_Master, Cyan, CP, atlseal
1 atlseal- Spoon
1 AbbeyGargoyle - Alx2
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Alright, I would have thought it was obvious as to why I wasn't killed yesterday due to lack of smile. Once I disappeared, I was no longer part of the game at that point. This is also why I couldn't do anything last night. In this regard, I'll also say that nothing happens in limbo.
Actually, that makes me want to ask Az something about what happened. I may have been making a false assumption...
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If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
More than likely, it was what happened in response to the attempted SK-shot. he "phased out" I guess, to use a magic term...
Vote Count without a witty title 6 Loran16- Abbeygargoyle, grakthis, J-Effe IV, Dagger, Axelrod, ZDS
4 Hawkeye7- Charm_Master, Cyan, CP, atlseal
1 atlseal- Spoon
1 AbbeyGargoyle - Alx2
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This is an interesting vote. Spoon you do not know me well enough to say whether or not I always act like that or not. If you did know me you would know that I clear do not act that way always.
How do you know that?
I'm personally convinced that Spoon is Crippled_Fist or CropCircles or both of them at once (both of them have activity in the last 24 hours, incidentally, despite the fact that neither has posted on the site in months), and I've been reading him/them accordingly. Do you reckon those two would know your play well enough to read it that way?
Interesting question Raf. I have absolutely no reason to believe that Spoon is either of those people or if they are all one and the same.
Even if they were, I don't think either of them really have played in many games with me.
What do you think a player who had played in enough games with me to have seen how I play over all would answer that question?
There are several players in this game who have played in more then just a couple of games with me and would be able to form an informed opinion of my style of play. Imo, you Raf are one of them.
Hawkeye's acting dodgey and cryptic, and I'd vote him on principal if he didn't always act like that. Some of the things he said to Hvir and DYH don't sit well with me, though. Insisting that Hvir should have picked up on the location hints that HE7 dropped doesn't seem correct. And where he got the idea that DYH was being controlled is beyond me. Blood Moon mafia, maybe?
Aw, what the heck. I'm willing to see where this goes. Vote HAWKEYE7.
How does that first sentence sound to you? What would you think if a player you had very little experience with made a statement worded like that about you?
Like I said, I think his words are implying a degree of familiarity and knowledge that he does not possess and is trying to add credibility to a post and a vote that is lacking substance.
My voice is no longer my own- my vote should not be counted. Anyone can change their avatar, Hawkeye.
I assumed at the time (and still believe) that this was just a way to role-play saying that he had to proxy his vote again once he'd changed back to his original avatar.
So, you don’t think the phrase “my voice is not my own” does not mean that he was not in control, or complete control of the words he was posting?
Ok.
What are your thoughts on the possibility that DYH was, while posting under a different avatar and phrasing his words as though he were roleplaying, that he was actually under the control of another player? That that player could tell him, if not actually write out, what he was posting?
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It's hugely unlikely. Not only is a role that forces someone to act in a way contrary to their own interests in that fashion blatantly stupid for a *****oon of reasons, we also seem to have a role out there that grants posting restrictions which wasn't doing anything else that day. It strikes me as obscenely obvious that DYH was referring to the fact that he had just reverted from a state in which he had control over his own vote (had control of his 'voice') to a state where he had to proxy his vote to someone else (someone else had control of his 'voice').
I'm reading it as opposite of the way you just described it.
My voice is no longer my own- my vote should not be counted. Anyone can change their avatar, Hawkeye.
@Vamp: I am Peter Silberman.
@others: I have no knowledge of why I'm here, only that I have bad memories of the metal killing machines and random events that keep playing in my head. Make it stop!
He’s role playing here and continued to do so for several posts. He had the Agent Smith avatar at the time he posted this.
He’s saying that his voice is not his own when he was role playing and had the avatar. Not that his voice was not his own when he had to proxy his vote. DYH only changed his avatar back after I continued to press him about it.
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How does that first sentence sound to you? What would you think if a player you had very little experience with made a statement worded like that about you?
Exactly what you thought. I was acting with knowledge you don't have and didn't take that into account. My bad.
Quote from HAWKEYE7 »
Like I said, I think his words are implying a degree of familiarity and knowledge that he does not possess and is trying to add credibility to a post and a vote that is lacking substance.
I can see how you'd think that in retrospect. See above.
So, you don’t think the phrase “my voice is not my own” does not mean that he was not in control, or complete control of the words he was posting?
Ok.
What are your thoughts on the possibility that DYH was, while posting under a different avatar and phrasing his words as though he were roleplaying, that he was actually under the control of another player? That that player could tell him, if not actually write out, what he was posting?
If there wasn't a completely legitimate reason for him to have used the phrase "my voice is not my own" I might be more sympathetic to your theory. I just think it was a colorful way of saying that at that point he couldn't control his own vote; what is your voice in this game if not your vote?
I can see where the controlled-DYH theory comes from, I just think it's too far-fetched. The evidence is by no means conclusive, and what you're pointing to as evidence can be explained in other ways.
So: I see where you're coming from, I just think you're trying too hard.
Quote from HAWKEYE7 »
He had the Agent Smith avatar at the time he posted this.
I remember interpreting the "my voice is not my own" line as I explained it above, and part of that comes from remembering him as having his normal avatar when he posted that.
Also, @Pod: Thanks for answering for me. Really, very nice of you.
I really feel like Hawkeye is just grossly overstating all of this avatar-related nonsense in order to divert attention from the fact that he has been scummy as hell for basically this whole game.
I think HE genuinely believed about the avatar thingy. For someone wanting to divert attention from himself, he went to a lot of trouble holding an extended arguments/questionings with DYH to extent of dropping vague references to his own role and/or involving the mod in this.
@Dagg : Cyan's point is that Hawk got the town to put the emphasis on the lesser of two evils.
I don't think it's even possible to do this outside of some novel (or movie or comic or...)
How is it not possible, when that is exactly what he did? There were a myriad of complaints against hawkeye, but the only one that he has remotely paid attention to is the one that we essentially cannot get any kind of resolution on. This is particularly relevant because he keeps talking about how it all has to do with his claim, but we don't know anything about said claim, yet.
I'm feeling burnt out. I don't have the energy to really go after someone. I did my thing, such as it was, and it is pointing me to Loran.
I want Loran to claim.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I'm feeling burnt out. I don't have the energy to really go after someone. I did my thing, such as it was, and it is pointing me to Loran.
I want Loran to claim.
You didn't seem to comment on my response to you. Ah well.
I don't see the need to claim at the moment, considering i have only 6 votes on me, and ZDS' is garbage.
Anyhow more later, i'm at work.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
You didn't seem to comment on my response to you. Ah well.
I don't see the need to claim at the moment, considering i have only 6 votes on me, and ZDS' is garbage.
Anyhow more later, i'm at work.
So, in other words, we need some more votes here.
How about it, folks? Can we move this along?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
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I think the default answer is yes. Notice that I've used two avvys over the course of the game (the cartoony Smith avvy from "The Matrix Has You" and my normal gas mask avvy, respectively) without any problems. I think it has more to do with ability-specific conditions for certain players.
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1) No, I'm arguing that the way Az did something implies something fishy, which you have yet to explain.
2) You could have any number of a billion things still hidden. The one I'm most worried about is that the fact that you got the same role PM as Vampyr clearly fails to mean that you have the same role - this means that you could have any role, including that of a scum, and we would not have any way to know it. Frankly, the 'role info' we have about you is about as reliable as a Nova.
3) You're concept of a "proof" is fairly laughable. All my points on this subject stand.
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Unless instructed otherwise, players may change their avatars at any time.
Ah, I mistaken your meaning then. I thought you meant 'tomorrow' as in 'Day 4'.
@CP: If you are thinking loran is the default lynch, what exactly do you hope to gain by pressuring Hawkeye further?
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"Back in the USSR" Vote Count
1 Alx- ZDS
4 Hawkeye7- Charm_Master, Cyan, CP, Spoon
5 Loran16- Abbeygargoyle, grakthis, J-Effe IV, Dagger, Axelrod
1 AbbeyGargoyle - Alx2
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Anyway, an attempt on my part to at least compile some info:
1. Loran16
A decent case has been put up against him. I've agreed with some points, disagreed with others. He's also given some reasonable responses. He hasn't claimed yet, has he? I'm in favor of pursuing this avenue.
2. Spoon
Still quite an unknown. Appears to be a gimmick of a regular player, but I'm not sure who. I don't even know if I can cross off players who are already in the game as possibilities. Apparently needs to vote in blue. I've seen some townish posts, but I'm tempted to pursue this line just to figure out what's up.
3. Fadeblue
Already known to be a recruited cultist, and claims to have reverted to townie (obviously I believe this claim). Also claims to be a nullifier.
*Personally, I'm wary of those who are trying to claim I'm scum, because it should be pretty clear by the way I came forward that I'm not (this would be WIFOM to the extreme). I particularly don't like Pod arguing that the nullifier ability is something that belongs on a Cult Leader, for reasons including atlseal's investigation and the fact that it would mean the leader is recruiting AND has a nullifying ability (and apparently has not even used that ability).
4. Rafaelk
I'm always going to be skeptical of Raf. So far, I've seen more of "townie Raf" than "scum Raf," but I'm definitely not discarding the possibility of Raf being mafia, or even SK.
5. Axelrod
Claims John Connor, and has support from Cyan's claim. However, I've disagreed with a lot of his logic, particularly in recent posts - though I do agree with him that we may able to get some info from the Hvir and LJustus/Cyan incidents. The claim looks fairly solid, but I note that Cyan was given no explicit guarantee of Axel's alignment. Even if Cyan is town, there's still a possibility of a scum Axel. I just know that I like the idea - if it's not true in this game, I'm definitely setting it aside for possible use in a future game.
6. J-Effe IV (Replacing Wizzpig)
I didn't like some of Wizzpig's and J-Effe's posts, but I'm accepting some other opinions out there that have been voiced about them. J-Effe has also committed himself to producing an obvious town role, which if he fails to do at a later point in the game, means I'm voting him. I believe it unlikely that a scum in that position is going to make the statement that he did.
7. Hawkeye7
Apparently has a role that involves him not being able to change his avatar, and may have some RP restriction. What doesn't make sense is his assumption that everyone else has the same restriction, when no part of the rules ever said so. I find it unlikely that a scum would act the way he did, but it still doesn't make much sense for a townie, or even a neutral. Simply put, I have no idea what Hawkeye was thinking there, but I do know that it gave me a bad vibe.
8. Grakthis
So far has been acting like a townie, though I do admit that I'm unfamiliar with his regular play (as either scum or town). Has given verification of the mysterious slice of cake. Also claimed some ability that can remove the -2 to lynch disadvantage.
9. Alx2
Has claimed some kind of circumstantial rolename cop. I give him townie points because this is an odd play for scum, unless he really thought he could get atlseal lynched on that alone (and I think Alx is smarter than that). Still, I don't like some of the flavor arguments he's been making (re: DYH and Vampyr), as well as some mod gaming.
10. Abbeygargoyle
To be honest, he's had few memorable posts, which potentially indicates an attempt to stay under the radar. Though he did post some analysis on loran, and since I'm leaning towards a loran wagon, I'll give him some townie credit for now. But I'd be especially interested in looking at AG if loran happens to be town.
11. Cyan
We've already gone over how scummy Cyan is (as always). But his T-800 claim is in his favor, even though I still feel there's something fishy going on with that whole mechanic (but that doesn't necessarily mean it's Cyan's role in particular that's fishy).
12. Xyre
I haven't liked a lot of his play, and I don't think his Spoon Boy claim really does that much for him, especially since it's a vague claim, and the spoons apparently don't do what he thought they do. However, Axel (and ZDS) has confirmed a spoon, and his claim of being roleblocked is supported by Grak.
13. ZDS
Claimed mason that has gained a watcher ability. I don't know what to make of that. I haven't seen his play as problematic (at least not in the early part of the game), and is supposedly confirmed as town by Vampyr (via the initial mason PM).
14. Pod
Several of his posts have given me a townie vibe. I already pointed out his flawed argument about me being CL, but I can see that as just him not thinking through it properly.
15. Vampyr
The other mason. His behavior is consistent with this, and his reaction after Kraj's false claim of recruiting ZDS struck me as townish.
16. Carrion Pigeons
I'm suspicious of CP. I've disagreed with several of his posts, and the way he played out his multivote strikes me as non-townish. As far as I can tell, his role is unbalanced on a scum, but he may have some other restrictions which would make it possible.
17. Dagger
Claimed some kind of continuous ability. Said he targeted Cyan and Axel so far. Cyan apparently has not suffered negative effects. Much like AG, he hasn't had many memorable posts.
18. revolving role
I still think Sutherlands was a bit scummy on D1. Charm has been a bit better, but his info vomit and the claim itself are bad. It's still very possible that one (or all) of the players in the role are scum. Charm says he's required to include a vote count in every post, which doesn't seem to quite add up the way it's been played (and also means Az is allowing EBWODPs to count, which is admittedly possible). I'm very tempted to eliminate this role to help simplify the game.
19. Atlseal
Claimed Cheshire Cat, with a lynch drawback and JOAT abilities (which are all questionable flavorwise). Has used an inspection to catch Kraj. Seems to have a vanishing ability triggered presumably by a daykill attempt. No evidence yet has indicated that he is town.
I may have missed some details or claim info. Please point them out.
Indeed. Now would be the time to be putting down a vote.
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loran - Definitely some good points, and his desire to lynch me Day 2 after I gave out my results doesn't speak to well, either.
Hawkeye - I've found a lot of his avatar speculation a bit more than suspicious. Like fade stated, I don't see why he'd assume other people have to coincide with what he's been doing. If I had to guess, I'd say his character is the one behind the flavor spreading thing that affected Vamp and DYH. The way they were acting, there definitely seemed to be some bad side if they didn't follow what was needed.
Vote: Hawkeye
Errrr whaaa? Im a bit confused here....
I've been less than active recently in all my games, but a slow down in posting by me (or anyone else for that matter) doesnt make me scummy. Heck, what the hell do you mean by "scum voting"? What does that even mean?
If you're saying you think i made scummy votes on day 1, but not after that and that makes me more scummy? errrr. Man, im confused..
----------------------------
Sidenote, can someone explain why hawkeye is scummy? Yeah, he's confused the hell out of me, but that's not necessarily a scum tell, and all im hearing from people is that its "bad vibes".
Anyone?
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Have you learned nothing from DotA? Multiple people able to vouch for each other seems to be the "in" thing.
For the part above the dotted line, I don't get a scummy feel from your lack of posting. It does come across to me as trying to fly under the radar, but that in and of itself I don't take as a scum tell.
Below the dotted line, I feel the same way. HE has confused me some, but I get nother scum nor town feelings from him.
PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
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I'll wait for it then with high anticipation.
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Well... I deleted them. I remember after Alx2 started going after AG I wrote one post criticizing you, but other than that I don't remember. What does matter is that my gut hasn't liked your play but I trust your claim.
I believe that I remain an unknown is in the town's best interest.
I just realized that the disappearance of Atlseal fits perfectly with his Cheshire Cat claim, which means that now he's a JOAT with a crappy lynch drawback and a kill dodging ability. Does anyone else see this as rather unlikely?
If Loran turns up scum today, we can pretty much mark Hawkeye as town.
I find it highly unlikely someone with Loran's style would post this directed at a team mate.
The "rush to buy school supplies" votecount
1 Alx- ZDS
5 Hawkeye7- Charm_Master, Cyan, CP, Spoon, atlseal
5 Loran16- Abbeygargoyle, grakthis, J-Effe IV, Dagger, Axelrod
1 AbbeyGargoyle - Alx2
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As a matter of fact, I did not notice it. I’m not sure when you did it but if you had pointed it out when you had it may have saved me from continuing on. Then again if you were trying to see how far I would go and in what direction with the line of thinking I was perusing, then I can understand waiting. Thanks for pointing it out to me though.
Apparently, I was wrong in the assumptions I had made based on my role and the answers I got to certain questions I made to Azrael. I believed that only under very specific circumstance would players be allowed to change their avatars and after Kraj was gone that the fact that DYH started sporting the Agent Smith Avatar and began at that point role playing was an indication that the Agent Smith Cult did not die with Kraj but continued on with DYH and likely he was being controlled by another player.
I still think that had I had Hvir’s role and someone had made the references that I had, I would have made some posts to indicate that the thoughts on movement were possibly worth pursuing. I think that Hvir, in my option, misplayed this, but that opinion is based only on the information that I have. It is quite possible that I do not have the information that makes it understandable why he did not do that.
As for DYH, I still believe it is very possible that he was being controlled. We ill have to wait to see if I’m wrong on that.
Thank you ZDS, you are right, that should not have been such an ordeal to do. I wish someone had done that when I first asked.
Thank you Azrael for clearly stating something I had clearly misinterpreted.
I find the votes against me as interesting. Very few have any real suspicions and try as I might I can't seem to provoke a real bandwagon to form, let alone posts that commit players to positions that are not heavily hedged.
“Oh, well, I guess I’ll vote for Hawkeye7. Maybe he will tell us what his role pm says.” I don’t really see you committing yourself here. If you want me to claim why not come out and say that?
This is an interesting vote. Spoon you do not know me well enough to say whether or not I always act like that or not. If you did know me you would know that I clear do not act that way always. This strikes me as implying that you have some credibility that you really do not have. The statement that the things I said about Hvir and DYH don’t sit well with you also come a crossed as opportunistic to me. How would you have any idea whether I was right or wrong regarding DYH? I came up with a theory that avatar changing and the possibility that a player could be controlled by another player based on information I had, what I read about fade’s recruitment experience, answers I got to questions I asked Azrael and looking at the changes in game play by DYH and his changing his avatar. Remember this post?
I posted a case against DYH based on that theory and tried to get information to confirm or dismiss that case/theory. If you disagree with me why did you not post anything regarding this up to this point? Why did you not question me about any portion of my posts directed at DYH?
So, after posting for so long that Loran was the default lynch for the day, agreeing with RafK and drifting from one target to another you have decided that me being cryptic and dodgy, which you claim is how I always act and that some of the things I have said about Hvir and DYH form the basis of a legitimate vote of me by you?
No implied knowledge or familiarity that you don’t possess to try to add credibility to your vote.
While I don’t agree with your vote, I find the fact that you posted a solid reason, clearly why you are voting for me to be to your credit.
So, you are voting for me solely on you assuming you know who my role is and that you can’t see them in the matrix? This on it’s own is an extremely weak reason especially considering what we have in the way of claimed and assumed roles in this game so far. Since you made this post you have made 10 posts in this game and the original content of all of them combined equals approximately 4 sentences. Would you care to post something pertinent to the game? Also what are your thoughts on the bandwagon on me and your reasons for still being a part of it. You do realize that you are still voting for me right/ since more then half of the posts you have made since voting for me have had a vote count in it or consisted solely of a vote count.
I have already posted my thoughts on Cyan’s vote.
As it is, of the people voting for me, the person I see as most likely to be a mafia trying to hide, by resting his vote on a bandwagon that does not seem to be going anywhere, and not push or overly commit to that bandwagon to be Spoon.
A closer look at the content of his posts is warranted imo.
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How do you know that?
I'm personally convinced that Spoon is Crippled_Fist or CropCircles or both of them at once (both of them have activity in the last 24 hours, incidentally, despite the fact that neither has posted on the site in months), and I've been reading him/them accordingly. Do you reckon those two would know your play well enough to read it that way?
k.
Maybe not always, but I've seen you act cryptic and dodgey enough times before that I don't see it as much of a tell from you.
Because the idea that DYH was being controlled by someone else seems ludicrous. I guess it is possible that DYH was under duress, but going after him based almost entirely on that is crazy.
Ok. I guess my problem is just that I think you interpreted these things badly. It's certainly possible that you just misinterpreted some PMs from Azrael, though.
I assumed at the time (and still believe) that this was just a way to role-play saying that he had to proxy his vote again once he'd changed back to his original avatar.
While you were asking questions, I thought it best to let you have your answers before going further. I like to let people be the judge of their own information.
Shortly after you got your answers (or at least some of them), DYH was killed. It was at that point that I decided that the way you were acting based on the information you had was dumb.
I was agreeing with CP (not RafK) and commented on why I agreed with the subjects that he'd brought up in his previous post. I didn't intend to jump from target to target. I then voted you because I thought your case on DYH was absurdly founded and lacking sense, and therefore could easily have something else behind it.
Anyway, I got the main answer I was looking for by voting you, which was what you were thinking when you voted DYH.
That quote makes me think it's more likely that you just messed up and anything more sinister was going on. I still don't think there was enough information there to make that leap, but then again I don't have your role or the PMs from Azrael.
So unvote, vote atlseal. That vote is stay there until I get an explanation for his disappearing act. A JOAT with a botched drawback and a kill dodging ability is just too much for me.
I assumed you were about to list out why I am scummy, something of which obviously interested me.
In addition, I am also interested in what you had to say about Rafk.
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NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
This is something I don't think that we will ever be able to prove for certain unless he is dead. Jack is too easy a thing for a couple of mafiosi feeding atlseal info to help him fake.That being said, I find it hard to call the role inherently scum anymore due to his apparent kill dodging, but with the amount of kills running around, it isn't out of the question.
We probably won't know for certain until we find a dead scum, and I still believe that loran is the best avenue for doing so.
See, I'm kind of looking at this the other way. We know he's not the day-killer b/c day-killer tried to kill him. Not Cult for obvious reasons. So if you think he's scum you pretty much would have to think he was Mafia. He did, however, demonstrate a Cop ability. So, do you think he's Mafia, with the ability to find out someone else's role and the ability to dodge a Day-kill? Not to mention the fact that he's claimed other abilities that could be tested out (vig/RB).
Yes, he could be fake-claiming and the abilities could just be all the collective Mafia abilities. But that's pretty wild, to claim a role that would require the cooperation of all your Mafia buddies to prove out. That severely limits the ability of the Mafia to do what they actually want with said abilities.
Case in point: investigation used up on Athos, the biggest lurker in the game. Nothing like a threat to the Mafia. I'm sure they would much rather have found out the role of someone who was actually playing, or someone they thought they might have trouble getting lynched. You could argue that he did it strictly to look more townie and just got lucky, but I think you would be stretching to reach a conclusion you already want to believe, as opposed to being objective. Until he does something more suspicious, I'm satisfied with atlseal.
1) It's good game design to give the mafia a way to dodge random kills from the SK and vice versus. Because nothing screws up a game more than having the mafia and SK randomly cross kill early on.
2) ATL did not post his smiley face yesterday as near as I can find. So why is he alive?
3) I was in a game where as long as a specific player was alive, we (the mafia) were given a 1-shot night kill protection. If the SK is a daykiller, it would not be odd for that to be a 1-shot day-kill protection.
Maybe I missed this, but did ATL choose not to use any abilities last night? I don't remember him saying one way or the other.
Given the above issues, ATL def. needs to provide some kind of explanation for his dodge of the kill attempt yesterday.
you think everything is perfect, only to find out that you're just a pawn and everything you've known was a lie. Same principle applies to F451, now that I think about it...
which makes the terminator mythos seem the odd man out, but DYH proved that we have that in here...weird. I'm kind of at a loss here...I may have to re-read D1 and today...
The "lulz I don't have school yet" votecount
5 Loran16- Abbeygargoyle, grakthis, J-Effe IV, Dagger, Axelrod
4 Hawkeye7- Charm_Master, Cyan, CP, atlseal
1 Alx- ZDS
1 atlseal- Spoon
1 AbbeyGargoyle - Alx2
Currently Playing:
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RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR
RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
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That, however, is something that needs to be explained.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Vote Count without a witty title
6 Loran16- Abbeygargoyle, grakthis, J-Effe IV, Dagger, Axelrod, ZDS
4 Hawkeye7- Charm_Master, Cyan, CP, atlseal
1 atlseal- Spoon
1 AbbeyGargoyle - Alx2
Currently Playing:
GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG
RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR
RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
Clan Contest 3 Mafia - Mafia Co-MVP
Actually, that makes me want to ask Az something about what happened. I may have been making a false assumption...
Vote Count without a witty title
6 Loran16- Abbeygargoyle, grakthis, J-Effe IV, Dagger, Axelrod, ZDS
4 Hawkeye7- Charm_Master, Cyan, CP, atlseal
1 atlseal- Spoon
1 AbbeyGargoyle - Alx2
Currently Playing:
GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG
RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR
RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
Clan Contest 3 Mafia - Mafia Co-MVP
Interesting question Raf. I have absolutely no reason to believe that Spoon is either of those people or if they are all one and the same.
Even if they were, I don't think either of them really have played in many games with me.
What do you think a player who had played in enough games with me to have seen how I play over all would answer that question?
There are several players in this game who have played in more then just a couple of games with me and would be able to form an informed opinion of my style of play. Imo, you Raf are one of them.
How does that first sentence sound to you? What would you think if a player you had very little experience with made a statement worded like that about you?
Like I said, I think his words are implying a degree of familiarity and knowledge that he does not possess and is trying to add credibility to a post and a vote that is lacking substance.
So, you don’t think the phrase “my voice is not my own” does not mean that he was not in control, or complete control of the words he was posting?
Ok.
What are your thoughts on the possibility that DYH was, while posting under a different avatar and phrasing his words as though he were roleplaying, that he was actually under the control of another player? That that player could tell him, if not actually write out, what he was posting?
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I'm reading it as opposite of the way you just described it.
He’s role playing here and continued to do so for several posts. He had the Agent Smith avatar at the time he posted this.
He’s saying that his voice is not his own when he was role playing and had the avatar. Not that his voice was not his own when he had to proxy his vote. DYH only changed his avatar back after I continued to press him about it.
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Exactly what you thought. I was acting with knowledge you don't have and didn't take that into account. My bad.
I can see how you'd think that in retrospect. See above.
If there wasn't a completely legitimate reason for him to have used the phrase "my voice is not my own" I might be more sympathetic to your theory. I just think it was a colorful way of saying that at that point he couldn't control his own vote; what is your voice in this game if not your vote?
I can see where the controlled-DYH theory comes from, I just think it's too far-fetched. The evidence is by no means conclusive, and what you're pointing to as evidence can be explained in other ways.
So: I see where you're coming from, I just think you're trying too hard.
I remember interpreting the "my voice is not my own" line as I explained it above, and part of that comes from remembering him as having his normal avatar when he posted that.
Also, @Pod: Thanks for answering for me. Really, very nice of you.
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Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
Was it inherant to ATL or was it caused by someone else?
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Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
How is it not possible, when that is exactly what he did? There were a myriad of complaints against hawkeye, but the only one that he has remotely paid attention to is the one that we essentially cannot get any kind of resolution on. This is particularly relevant because he keeps talking about how it all has to do with his claim, but we don't know anything about said claim, yet.
I want Loran to claim.
You didn't seem to comment on my response to you. Ah well.
I don't see the need to claim at the moment, considering i have only 6 votes on me, and ZDS' is garbage.
Anyhow more later, i'm at work.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
So, in other words, we need some more votes here.
How about it, folks? Can we move this along?
This might be a good spot for CP to use some of his multi-vote magic perhaps?
...that's the haunting.
Vote count
7 Loran16- Abbeygargoyle, grakthis, J-Effe IV, Dagger, Axelrod, ZDS, Charm_Master
3 Hawkeye7- Cyan, CP, atlseal
1 atlseal- Spoon
1 AbbeyGargoyle - Alx2
Currently Playing:
GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG
RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR
RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
Clan Contest 3 Mafia - Mafia Co-MVP
PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
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