MTG Salvation

No, my ability is not limited use. My reason for not using it will be made clear at some point, I'm sure, and it will be clear that I had good reason.

Works for me.

Quote from RafaelK

Re: Vamp - are you claiming you can't vote?

I'm brought out of my reverie as one of the more vocal residents directs a question at me.

"No, that's not at all what I'm claiming."

Standing up at this point so that I'm on more equal terms with whom I'm talking to, I decide to take the moment to stretch my legs and walk around my chair.

"Previously, I spoke before atlseal said anything. Then I became..." I pause, not wanting to let onto my temporary impairment.

"Shall we say, otherwise occupied. When I come back, Kraj is at the claim point. I'm saying if I had seen atlseal's accusation, I would have voted for Kraj."

I stop my pacing and lean over my chair, my hands on the back, bending the cheap plastic as I do so.

"And I'm still willing to vote Kraj. But right now is not the time to do so. It would be welcoming to have Kraj join us here, rather than hiding where ever he's at."

I move out from behind the chair and walk over to Raf, stopping a few paces from him. Keeping my eyes locked on his as I ask,

"I have to wonder, why would you think I wasn't able to vote? I voted yesterday. And it showed up in the vote count. I never indicated I had any limitations previously. Why ask me that question?"

Vamp: why ask the question? To avoid misunderstandings. Your post was ambiguous.

I notice Kraj is reading the thread.

I love how Hawkeye ignored my vote on him, instead decided to attack the FoS that Jefe gave him. Makes alot of sense.

I also find it dubious that RafK, who, IIRC, initially expressed doubt that CP should be considered town(based on Court Mafia) so willingly swallowed CP's 'yeah I can't use my multi-vote all of the time, but I refuse to say why' line. I'm sure that'll become clear later.

Guess there's nothing else for now but to wait to hear from Kraj.

This is indeed a... distressing development.

It's rather ironic, isn't it, that at one time I considered my victory to be something of an inevitable event? Yet here I am, instead facing my own inevitable termination.

At another stage of the game, perhaps I could convince you of my innocence. As it stands, I believe such an attempt would be futile, and desperate acts are beneath me. Mr. atlseal is quite correct, except that I am no longer an agent of the system. You may refer to me simply as Smith.

As I have no vested interest in the fate of this... zoo or its stinking inhabitants once I am gone, I may as well reveal my role in the grand scheme. It is true, I have the ability to assimilate an inhabitant of the Matrix into my collective each night. However, after the One destroyed me a second time by allowing me to assimilate it, I was weakened. I became unable to assimilate those of a hostile nature and instead can only infect innocent citizens. If I were somehow destroyed again, any copies of me would revert to their original state.

It may be of some interest that my first attempt at assimilation was met with failure. My target was Mr. ZeDorkSlipeur.

Before I depart, one last comment. I must admit to... feeling rather distraught about this situation. To have such power dangled in front of me and then taken away. To spend hours not only monitoring the events of the first day, but also recording them in detail, all for naught. To be brought low by nothing more than a serendipitous whim. Revolting.

Quote from Cyan

I also find it dubious that RafK, who, IIRC, initially expressed doubt that CP should be considered town(based on Court Mafia) so willingly swallowed CP's 'yeah I can't use my multi-vote all of the time, but I refuse to say why' line. I'm sure that'll become clear later.

If it doesn't, then we can lynch him down the track. I don't really see a need to press cp about it today. He's made a commitment which he can be held to if need be, and that's good enough for me.

Vote Kraj.

I guess that settles that. Interesting that he claims to have targeted ZDS and failed, but only fails if his target is scum. I think we have a good Vig candidate for atlseal now. Either that, or it's time for the other 'mason' to come forward.

Heh. I totally believe Kraj too. Thanks! Care to deny that, ZDS?

This raises the thought of trying to use Kraj as an extra scum detector, but I'm not hot on taking the risk of letting him cultify important people. As such: vote Kraj

Sarnath'd by Cyan; unvote to avoid a rushed hammer before we finished discussing ZDS.

Quote from Cyan

I love how Hawkeye ignored my vote on him, instead decided to attack the FoS that Jefe gave him. Makes alot of sense.

I also find it dubious that RafK, who, IIRC, initially expressed doubt that CP should be considered town(based on Court Mafia) so willingly swallowed CP's 'yeah I can't use my multi-vote all of the time, but I refuse to say why' line. I'm sure that'll become clear later.

Guess there's nothing else for now but to wait to hear from Kraj.

Cyan, did I miss something? You did unvote me here right?

Quote from Cyan

In fairness, if atlseal is right here, the most likely conclusion is that he is telling the truth about his role.

If we're at 8 votes, Unvote. I really want CP to prove(probably everyday, no reason not to) that he still has 3 votes.

I'm sorry, don't be insulted if I don't acknowledge your every word.
Yeah, I still think you're suspicous.
This persistant interest in me even though you can't seem to bring yourself to present a case, vote for me and stick to your guns, is a little weak. Look on the bright side, at least this time you have the Kraj situation as an excuse to back off. Can't let yourself be seen as ignoring an obvious suspicous situation just to try to build an appearence of wrongdoing on my part, now can you?

Well.... I guess you're right. Nothing to do but wait till Kraj posts.
Are you Sure you don't want to say how something I've posted "bothers you" but you can't quite bring yourself to post what it is again?
That one always works good.

Well, this obviously needs explanation. ZDS ?

EDWODP

Oops, missed that chance to preview too. Damn.
Vote: Kraj

Dear ZDS,
if you do not reveal your mason partner, you are getting vigged tonight or lynched tomorrow.
Love,
The Town

@Hawkeye: This is just like yesterday, where your main reason for voting me was because I missed/misrepresented your reasons, yet you constantly did the same thing all day long. Obviously I wasn't talking about the post where I unvoted kraj, I was referring to this post. And it's a good thing that RafK unvoted, otherwise, in your extreme negligence, you would have lynched Kraj without us being able to find out more about ZDS apparently being scum. In a hurry to end the day, are we? Don't worry, you'll still get to answer for your actions tomorrow.

Unvote. I don't want Kraj to be lynched until some kind of resolution is reached here, regarding ZDS.

Quote from Grakthis

Dear ZDS,
if you do not reveal your mason partner, you are getting vigged tonight or lynched tomorrow.
Love,
The Town

As an amusing way to spend my final moments...

Quote from Azrael

With 21 alive, it's 11 votes to lynch.

Quote from AbbeyGargoyle

Jeffe's vote makes 8 by my count. We probably should wait until everyone has at least checked in before ending the day.

At the time of this post, there were 10 votes on me, not 8. I find it interesting how willing the town was to continue voting someone so close to claim/lynch range without so much as a double-check on AG's vote count.

The current vote count is:
Kraj: 9 (Spoon, J-Effe IV, Hawkeye7, Grakthis, Abbeygargoyle, Xyre, ZDS, atlseal, Carrion Pigeons) It is also noteworthy that both Rafaelk and Cyan had previously voted but unvoted to avoid the quick lynch. Additionally, DYH proxied his vote to Grakthis which has yet to be placed.
Loran16: 1 (Grakthis)*
Vampyr: 1 (Grakthis)*
atlseal: 1 (Loran16)

*These votes were placed prior to DHY's proxy.

Have fun, kids!

Just to clarify, you being quick lynched isn't a problem, under normal circumstances. But some kind of resolution needs to be brought to your statement about ZDS, and it would be too easy for some mafioso to just lynch you to avoid that happening today. Hell, Hawkeye already tried to do so.

Quote from Cyan

@Hawkeye: This is just like yesterday, where your main reason for voting me was because I missed/misrepresented your reasons, yet you constantly did the same thing all day long. Obviously I wasn't talking about the post where I unvoted kraj, I was referring to this post. And it's a good thing that RafK unvoted, otherwise, in your extreme negligence, you would have lynched Kraj without us being able to find out more about ZDS apparently being scum. In a hurry to end the day, are we? Don't worry, you'll still get to answer for your actions tomorrow.

Unvote. I don't want Kraj to be lynched until some kind of resolution is reached here, regarding ZDS.

I agree Cyan, it is just like yesterday.
You post a little suspicion regarding me, not much but enough to color me with the appearence of wrong doing and then you pretend to move onto other things. You've done this several times. Slowly trying to build suspicion but without the burden of making and supporting a real case.
As for negligence, if you were so worried about Kraj being lynched before we find out more about ZDS apparently being scum, then why did you vote for him when it was very possible that he would be lynched soon? Why there have been several people, yourself included - twice I believe, who have called for CP to demonstrate his multiple vote ability. Why did you vote if you were aware that Kraj was already well within hammering range and yopu had repeatedly asked for someone (CP) who could hammer and lynch, supposidly, all by himself?
I had already said I was going to vote for Kraj after he had posted, why are you surprised that I did?

I voted for him because he was at 8 votes then. My vote put him 2 from lynch, which is a safe distance. 1 vote from lynch is not a safe distance. C'mon now. And yes, I asked for CP to be the hammer vote, so that he can show us that his multi-vote still works. I also said that I wanted Kraj to claim first. You're also apparently ignoring the fact that CP already stated that he's not going to use his ability today. I can't see what you're getting at here, though you do seem particularly desperate. And I'm not 'surprised' that you vote Kraj when you did. Such negligence has been your MO for most of this game.

Well, this is an interesting (although, I suppose, not unexpected) development.

While atl isn't completely cleared in my mind, he's definitely looking better.

And while I'd like to hear from ZDS, I wouldn't be surprised if the explanation was rather simple (a la roleblock or whatnot).

Quote from Xyre

And while I'd like to hear from ZDS, I wouldn't be surprised if the explanation was rather simple (a la roleblock or whatnot).

Is that coaching I hear?

FOS Xyre

And no-one else try to give ZDS suggestions before he explains himself, kthx.

Quote from Cyan

I voted for him because he was at 8 votes then. My vote put him 2 from lynch, which is a safe distance. 1 vote from lynch is not a safe distance. C'mon now. And yes, I asked for CP to be the hammer vote, so that he can show us that his multi-vote still works. I also said that I wanted Kraj to claim first. You're also apparently ignoring the fact that CP already stated that he's not going to use his ability today. I can't see what you're getting at here, though you do seem particularly desperate. And I'm not 'surprised' that you vote Kraj when you did. Such negligence has been your MO for most of this game.

I see. You voted in full knowledge of and relying on the fact that CP would stick to what he had said.
Whatever you say.
I'm hitting the hay.
Good night.

I said it on Day 1, I will say it again: ZDS is either a scum or an endgame liability. Either way, he makes a very good vig target.

Also, to respond to Cyan, this is what I got from the mod, more or less:

At night, I left wherever I was and went to where I thought <my target> was. However, I couldn't find him there. After some futile searching, I returned home, disheartened.

Was I roleblocked or did I run into some kind of untargetability? Any input is welcome. If that indeed was a roleblock, then I'm almost 100% certain atlseal is a mafia investigator. If we're both non-mafia, the scum have no reason in the world to RB me over him.

Please don't hammer Kraj until we finish discussing this.

I barely listen with feigned interest as the being known as Kraj moves into the central area and mechanically relates its tale to us. It’s sure to be some sort of drivel that it asks for leniency and that it can help find mafia and some such crap.

That is until…

Quote from Kraj

It may be of some interest that my first attempt at assimilation was met with failure. My target was Mr. ZeDorkSlipeur.

is revealed with the sound of a whirling disk drive.

I almost fall out of my chair and at the same time jump to my feet kicking the cheap K-Mart plastic chair behind me.

I quickly step away from the form of ZDS and to the central part of the area, making sure there are at least a few people between her and I.

I shakily point my hand towards her, stumbling over my words.

“I..I…I knew something was up. We’d been talking about how best to get out here while keeping our hides intact. Nothing good was coming to mind, so we’d just weather the situation like we had in the past.”

I swallow hard and drag my arm across my mouth to wipe away that nasty taste of regret that was lingering on my lips

“Then last night she tells me she stumbled onto something interesting. A room with television monitors that she was able to watch people. She said we might be able to see what people do and use it to help us get out of here.”

I turn around and stumble to the large potted planter holding a plastic plant and lean against it.

“I don’t like it. I may be her lover, Choi, but I’m not going down with her. Fate may have dealt Dujour a bad hand, but I’ll make the best of it.”

Taking one last longing look at her, I turn away, to angry to think of the past, too numb to think of the present and to scared to think of the future.

That is pretty much, for certain, not a roleblock. You still clearly tried to act out your ability, you just couldn't find your target.

Even if atlseal was a rolecop, he wouldn't get told that Kraj is Mr. Smith. I mean, in fairness, that is far and away the most likely cult leader choice, but there would have been no reason for him to add that to his investigation, just saying 'Kraj is the cult leader' would have been enough. As much as I thought he was scum yesterday, atlseal looks fine now. ZDS showing up scum won't really surprise me at all. Then we can look at Hawkeye tomorrow..or Xyre.

And apparently Vampyr just claimed to be the other mason.

Now the question becomes..which is more likely? A scum mason, or the cult leader is lying and trying to get a townie killed for fun?

I think atlseal now has a great target for tonight.

Vamp: Could you give us a potted synopsis of what the hell you mean after you've finished with the roleplaying?

I mean, I got the mason claim, but what's the business with the monitors and "not going down with her?".


alx: Confirm/deny- was your target me?

Quote from RafaelK

alx: Confirm/deny- was your target me?

Not you.

and now a brief break from the roleplaying...

Well, yesterday ZDS sends a PM saying "hey look new ability".

And the "going down with her" was strictly role playing, nothing more. Basically me saying that I don't buy Kraj's claim of returning to normal after he goes.

That's all I'll say on it. Let ZDS fill you in on it.

Quote from Alx2

Not you.

Cool. Then all I can say is that it sounds like you encountered someone with some kind of "hiding" ability, or it might be an odd way to explain an untargetable role. Doesn't really sound like a roleblock.

Quote from RafaelK

Cool. Then all I can say is that it sounds like you encountered someone with some kind of "hiding" ability, or it might be an odd way to explain an untargetable role. Doesn't really sound like a roleblock.

I find that a tad difficult to believe. You see, some of the things that player said on day 1 really do not mesh with an untargetable or a hider. I could reveal the name of my target so we can all discuss it together, but then I'll be potentially revealing an untargetable townie, a good way to waste a scum kill, so I'm a bit reluctant. Maybe I should just shut up, lynch Kraj and sort out the mess on day 3? I remain open for input.

Woah. I go to a baseball game and all this happens? Unvote for now. If Atl is scum, and its certainly still possible, then he did have an investiative ability and wasnt lying about that. Hmmm, has atl used that :grin: emotion today?

I'd vote Kraj obviously, but i think we're at a comfortable level right now and we dont want to end the day.

Re: Alx, dont reveal it just yet, save that for day 3 discussion. I'm more confused by vamp and ZDS, really.

I wonder : would that so-called new ability somehow prevent you from being recruited by Kraj ? And if I read Vampyr correctly, you can now see what people do... Did you actually watch someone ? Who ?

Also : I never came across this situation, but would it be possible that one of the masons is scum while the other is town ?

Now, that it most interesting, and I am eager to hear form ZDS.

Quote from J-Effe IV

so : I never came across this situation, but would it be possible that one of the masons is scum while the other is town ?

Yeah, Az did it in Sin City. I think we already asked ZDS the usual question, but we need to ask Vampyr too-

"Does your PM confirm that both you and your mason partner are town?".

ZDS's answer should suffice since they shared a role PM.

Quote from J-Effe IV

I wonder : would that so-called new ability somehow prevent you from being recruited by Kraj ?

I think he's implying that the new ability IS the recruitment by Kraj, duh.

Also, interesting tidbit, I don't know if anyone mentioned it by now, but still:
- Elegant Mafia: Agent Smith is a cult leader.
- Matrix Mafia: Agent Smith is a cult leader.
- Elegant Mafia: One of the mafia members is a vampire.
- Matrix Mafia: One of the mafia members is apparently a vampire.

Coincidence or design?

So says ZDS. If they're scum and Vamp had forgotten he said that we might have had a windfall. Would people NOT answer questions not intended for them?

EBWDP: That was a direct response to Spoon.

Quote from RafaelK

So says ZDS. If they're scum and Vamp had forgotten he said that we might have had a windfall. Would people NOT answer questions not intended for them?

I received a PM with ZDS as a fellow recipient of it.

So unless Az is sending out secondary role PM's, alignment is concrete.

Quote from Vampyr

So unless Az is sending out secondary role PM's[snip]

Which is entirely possible.

Anyway, Unvote.

I want to discuss a little bit whether or not it's still a good idea for the town to have the 'masons' vigged. It seems like there are a few other interesting topics that might need a little resolution, too.

Personally, I'm all for a vigging. I'm curious if Raf has changed his mind?

I'm against the mason's vigging ; unless ZDS cannot explain this ability which Vampyr has spoken of. But if he was scum, would he have told at all about this new ability to his partner ?

Thus, my conclusion is that either ZDS and Vampyr are the confirmed masons (and we are not vigging them), or they both are scum, which would be a very dangerous gambit at this early point of the game.

Quote from Vampyr

I received a PM with ZDS as a fellow recipient of it.

So unless Az is sending out secondary role PM's, alignment is concrete.

Am I understanding this correctly-

1. You received the same initial role PM.

2. But you know that ZDS has also received at least one other PM from Az which you didn't see or receive yourself, and ZDS told you this other PM gave him an extra power which you don't have.

I think ZDS has to, at the least, explain this stuff.

Quote from carrion pigeons

Personally, I'm all for a vigging. I'm curious if Raf has changed his mind?

We'll see once ZDS talks.

Quote from RafaelK

Am I understanding this correctly-

1. You received the same initial role PM.

Correct. What ZDS claimed when he was forced to claim is all true. The only thing he left out was the day talk ability.

Quote from RafaelK

2. But you know that ZDS has also received at least one other PM from Az which you didn't see or receive yourself, and ZDS told you this other PM gave him an extra power which you don't have.

Correct on almost all the points. Last night ZDS told me he had a new ability and did so by forwarding me a PM that listed it being from Az. I don't know if it was from Az or created by someone else. ZDS never specified.

I was somewhat suspicious of it, but figured not to get too bent out of shape over it as it could have been Grak's handiwork. Then when Kraj said he targetted ZDS and supposedly failed, I'm guessing the new ability is an indication of him actually being recruited. I have no, repeat no, confirmation on any connection between new ability and recruitment success or failure. It is purely my guesswork.

The PM I referred to in my previous post was the initial role PM. Our role PM had both of us listed as the recipient.

Quote from J-Effe IV

I'm against the mason's vigging ; unless ZDS cannot explain this ability which Vampyr has spoken of. But if he was scum, would he have told at all about this new ability to his partner ?

Thus, my conclusion is that either ZDS and Vampyr are the confirmed masons (and we are not vigging them), or they both are scum, which would be a very dangerous gambit at this early point of the game.

At this point, we cannot trust the masons any more than any other player. Therefore, the last argument that there was to leave them alive is no longer valid. I don't see any argument for why we should not vig them.

So...uh, where the hell is ZDS? The #1 mafia spammer on MTGS a tad afraid of talking?

Is he at Nationals? We have no mod until Monday or whatever because of that. I have no idea who here still plays MTG and who doesn't.

Here is how I see it.

We have confirmation that ZDS and Vampyr are masons. We have Kraj, claiming to have targeted ZDS for recruitment, but failing because ZDS was scum. It doesn't make alot of sense that Kraj would lie here. I mean, it's possible that he lied about whom he targeted, but the only way for us to know that for certain is for ZDS to die. If he dies and comes up town, we know that Kraj lied about whom he targeted.

Considering the -2 to lynch aspect of this masonry, and adding into it the fact that atlseal also has this 'affliction', it makes more sense that one of the masons would be scum than it does that 3 townies would have this drawback, while no scum do.

IMO, vigging ZDS tonight is the correct course of action.

Yeah, speaking of that, whatever happened to Grak? The 'new ability' that ZDS supposedly has according to Vampyr could be confirmable if it came from Grak, right? Any input there?

BTW, Grak: 25 players with a vanilla setup and an SK who survives to the endgame don't allow for 10 day games. The game would be in a need for a no lynch by Day 8 if one scum was left, which leaves the town needing better than a 50% success rate in their lynches (4/7 or 57% of lynches need to get scum). Granted that a vanilla setup is not what you were discussing, and that an SK surviving that long is low on the list of likely scenarios, but I think that considering that this is an example of a balanced setup, dropping the required success rate of lynches by 17% is a bit drastic.

I thought Kraj said the recruiting attempt failed? How does that equate with ZDS gaining a new ability then?

Also, I would be interested in an explanation from ZDS first before anyone actually contemplate vigging him.