Incidentally, I don't think I've ever seen anyone with two lives AND another ability. It's not a very common ability... Someone had it in English Lit on mtgnews, bateleur had it in Trek (as scum!), I had it in DotA. All of those had no other ability.
@RafK: I never said that the town goal is to wipe out all of the machines, now did I? This is now the third time, in three days, that you have misrepresented something that I said. I said that part of the flavor in my role PM involves people being taught to fight against the machines. That doesn't automatically equate to 'the town has to kill the machines'.
And I maintained all along that I was holding back part of my role. This is like the third time that I have explained this directly to you. I provided the town with this information, fully expecting to be lynched, *because* of DotA. I didn't think that people magically changed their mind about it in the last month. I don't remember any post-game discussion in DotA where it was decided that testing a double-life claim is no longer a good idea. I made that post fully expecting to be lynched shortly thereafter, because that is what has happened in both instances of a double-life that I have been involved in. I provided the town with this information before I was lynched because it would not benefit the town for me to withhold that info past my lynch. I assumed that I would be lynched shortly thereafter, but I still wanted the town to have all of the information they could. It seemed particularly important because people kept saying that my lynch would clear alot of things up, but in reality, me being lynched today will answer no questions whatsoever.
@Hawkeye: I have already apologized for what you refer to as misrepresenting your position(in reality, I simply missed it). I fail to see the purpose in bringing it up again.
Incidentally, Hawkeye, I already answered the question that Vampyr asked. It was a typo, which I think isn't that difficult to figure out. Now, you are guilty of exactly what you just accused me of. Does that make you scum? Sometimes, people just miss things, like you apparently just did.
@RafK: I never said that the town goal is to wipe out all of the machines, now did I? This is now the third time, in three days, that you have misrepresented something that I said. I said that part of the flavor in my role PM involves people being taught to fight against the machines. That doesn't automatically equate to 'the town has to kill the machines'.
Quote from Cyan »
It doesn't take alot of intuition to realize that someone that fights the machines = town.
I didn't misrepresent you at all. You said flat out that fighting the machines = town. Which pretty conclusively demonstrates you don't actually know what you're talking about.
I'm just left working out whether you're mafia or neutral.
I paraphrased my role PM to the best of my ability without risking a modkill, which is partly what I think you're trying to rope me into doing. I said that my mission is to protect Connor while he teaches people to fight the machines. And you're right, obviously, I said that someone that fights the machines is town. Which is both correct and true. If you really, really want to be nitpicky about it, considering that you used Arimnaes as your example, he isn't a machine anyway. He is a program. I really fail to see what point you're trying to make here.
The point he's most obviously trying to make is that the motivation to kill machines is a separate motivation from that of trying to kill scum, and if your motivation is separate, that likely means your WC is separate as well. As a corollary, he's suggesting that despite the not-towniness of said conclusion, such a motivation is also clearly not scum-aligned, which suggests a neutral alignment more than anything else.
Of course, a neutral team with 3 lives between 2 players is also a lot more believable than 2 townies with the same. Maybe John Connor is a Hitman, and he really does have a bodyguard?
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Nowhere did I state that this was my 'motivation'. What Raf initially said, regarding 'wiping out the machines', I never said nor implied. I said that John Connor was brought in to teach people to fight the machines, and anyone that fights the machines is obviously town. How you're getting that my motivation is to kill machines is beyond me.
And honestly, if you want to get *really* picky, regarding Raf's example of Arimnaes being town, Arimnaes isn't a machine anyway. The agents are programs. I feel like the way you both(now) are going about this is ridiculously scummy. You are taking a flavor-based comment that I made, applying even more flavor to it, and trying to use that to somehow extrapolate that not only I, but also John Connor, must be some kind of scum. I am honestly flabberghasted here.
Nowhere did I state that this was my 'motivation'. What Raf initially said, regarding 'wiping out the machines', I never said nor implied. I said that John Connor was brought in to teach people to fight the machines, and anyone that fights the machines is obviously town. How you're getting that my motivation is to kill machines is beyond me.
Are you seriously trying to draw a distinction between fighting the machines and killing the machines?
In any event, you're still on the wrong track. Anyone that fights the machines is NOT obviously town.
(Also, just to be picky, your story used to be that John Connor was placed here by the machines to be "the one", not that he came here to teach people to fight machines).
Quote from Cyan »
And honestly, if you want to get *really* picky, regarding Raf's example of Arimnaes being town, Arimnaes isn't a machine anyway. The agents are programs.
If you want to get really picky, we're in the Matrix, are we not? In the Matrix, the Machines are represented by their programs (like the Agents). The Machines are not physically present in the Matrix.
I'm 'drawing a distinction' between A)what I said and B)what you tried to say I said, because what I said is a correlation, but what you're implying is that, based on what you want to misinterpret me as having said, I don't know the town role PM, which is a completely useless argument to get into.
I am curious, though, as to why you seem so sure that anything that fights the machines is not obviously town. It seems a peculiar point for you to get hung up on.
And both things that I have stated are part of the same story/flavor, it is just not possible for me to explain how without violating my role PM.
And the machines being 'represented' by Agents is not really correct. Yes, machines don't go into the matrix. But the Agents don't represent them, they represent the will of the matrix itself(which is also not a machine).
Seriously, this is all stupid. You have already, finally/seemingly, admitted that it is highly unlikely that I am mafia. Yet you're still arguing all of this. Why? Because you think I might be neutral? Fine, we all know that you think I might be neutral. Inevitably you will be proven wrong. In the meantime, surely there is something more beneficial to talk about than splitting hairs over role PM flavor?
What troubles me is that you're using this as a lean to cast doubt on the alignment of John Connor himself. Connor is town. There is no way conceivable that he is not town. And it is not fair/realistic for you to cast doubt on Connor himself when he is not the one under attack, and we know nothing whatsoever about his role. These recent posts by you are a huge detriment to Connor, and by extension, to the town itself.
And they're frustrating to me, because so much of this is flavor based, and while it would be easy for me to conclusively explain how all of the flavor works together, the risk of violating the don't quote your PMs rule is too great. I understand if this comes across as an emotional plea, and I don't really mean for it to. But the position you are putting me in is impossible.
I paraphrased my role PM to the best of my ability without risking a modkill, which is partly what I think you're trying to rope me into doing. I said that my mission is to protect Connor while he teaches people to fight the machines. And you're right, obviously, I said that someone that fights the machines is town. Which is both correct and true. If you really, really want to be nitpicky about it, considering that you used Arimnaes as your example, he isn't a machine anyway. He is a program. I really fail to see what point you're trying to make here.
You're doing it again.
"I said FIGHT the machines not KILL the machines!"
Here comes the 300 pound biker, and he is NOT happy with you!
"I said MACHINES, not the programs that represent the machines and obey the machines inside of the matrix!"
He's putting on his brass knuckles! Better keep backtracking! Maybe if you throw out some more outlandish claims like that, he'll totally believe you.
Can we lynch this guy, please? There is no way he's a townie.
You guys are infuriating. Flavor in my role PM regarding Connor teaching people to fight the machines DOES NOT EQUATE TO MY/CONNORS/ANYONES WIN CONDITION BEING KILL ALL OF THE MACHINES. This is ridiculous.
Also, I have no idea what the hell this 300 pound biker crap is. Is it remotely possible for you to speak in examples or metaphors that other people get? After a million MT and 'ML"(whatever that means) examples that everyone but Axelrod was clueless about it, which makes it difficult to interact with. This 300 pound b iker crap is more of the same.
Actually, Grak, there's a whole lot of way he's probably a townie. You've just never seen Cyan play - he's incredibly emotional. When he's on his game, he's good, when he's not - well, you're seeing the results.
It's not helping that he's being baited on hair-splitting flavor arguments by RafK, here, who seems to know a bit too much about what exactly would encompass a scum and what wouldn't. Having only seen the movies, I would think machines = bad guys. More importantly, I haven't seen the Terminator series, but wasn't Conner there to teach them how to defeat the machines? Doesn't that fit flavorfully?
RafK seems awfully caught up on flavor, and coincidentally then unvotes when he realizes this wagon is losing steam - citing Cyan as likely neutral based on this "slip". Kinda like how he backed off arguing on me citing 'the reasoning having left the station' when, in fact, it was never there at all and no one else had picked up on my wagon.
It's not helping that he's being baited on hair-splitting flavor arguments by RafK, here, who seems to know a bit too much about what exactly would encompass a scum and what wouldn't. Having only seen the movies, I would think machines = bad guys. More importantly, I haven't seen the Terminator series, but wasn't Conner there to teach them how to defeat the machines? Doesn't that fit flavorfully?
From what I understand, and I don't claim to be a Terminator series expert, is that Connor was one of a few people left alive after the machines attacked that had weapons and combat training as well as combat tactics and some combat experience. He was a reluctant, or maybe better described as "right place, right time," leader who took the job because of his knowledge and no one else wanted it.
If anyone else has a better grasp of things, please correct any mistakes I've made.
I'm of the opinion that if Connor is in this game, that I would give him the designation of town, regardless of the player's play so far. Connor was humanity's hope against the machines. If he's anything but town, I'd like to see the creativity behind that.
Game mechanically, would there ever be a reason to have a BG protecting a townie player but the BG not be a townie?
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Nice set of implications, DYH. Can we have one game where you don't just oppose everything I say without actually being logical?
Could you explain how it's hair-splitting flavour that Cyan thinks this game is about fighting the machines when it isn't? Could you explain to me how Cyan isn't the one trying to do the hair-splitting by drawing a distinction between fighting machines and killing them (and how that's academic when the town's objective is neither?). Could you explain to me how Cyan is not making stuff up as he goes along when he earlier said John Connor was inserted into the matrix by machines and now he says John Connor is here to teach people to fight machines?
The only thing you got right is that I have frazzled Cyan until he slipped up. Absolutely- that's the whole point of keeping a scummy person talking. Eventually he said something which reveals he's ignorant of something a townie should know (the only saving grace for him is that the mafia should know it too, hence why cp and I have suggested he's neutral). Eventually he messed up his story and revealed he's lying. Are you going to just explain this stuff away as being emotional?
Do you know how the Matrix mythos works at all, ZDS? The machines/architect/whatever are *always* aware of The One, and always know he will reach the architect, etc etc. There is nothing wrong with my explanation. And I didn't say the machines are trying to kill Connor, I said he trains people to fight against him and it's my job to protect him.
Think about the movies for a second. When Neo reaches the architect, the architect explains how 'The One' works. That means that the architect knew that Neo would reach him. But that didn't stop the agents from trying to kill him, nor did it stop the machines from trying to blow up the Nebuchanezzar(spelling) while he was on it, right? Right. Did you just forget all of this, or what?
I can't answer the 2 lives question any more specifically than I already have. What I listed that you quoted was just flavor(but validly so), and was not the reason that was listed in my role PM. There is literally no way for me to give that reason without it being a quote of my role PM.
Nice set of implications, DYH. Can we have one game where you don't just oppose everything I say without actually being logical?
Yep, Elegant mafia. Already happened.
Quote from RafK »
Could you explain how it's hair-splitting flavour that Cyan thinks this game is about fighting the machines when it isn't?
Quote from MOD »
The perpetrators remain unknown.
From the storyline. You tell me - how do you know it isn't the machines?
Quote from RafK »
Could you explain to me how Cyan isn't the one trying to do the hair-splitting by drawing a distinction between fighting machines and killing them (and how that's academic when the town's objective is neither?).
The town's objective is to eliminate whomever's responsible. Unless you happen to know exactly who that is - refer to the answer above.
Quote from RafK »
Could you explain to me how Cyan is not making stuff up as he goes along when he earlier said John Connor was inserted into the matrix by machines and now he says John Connor is here to teach people to fight machines?
I just saw this when ZDS posted it - I'd like an answer to that from Cyan, pronto.
Quote from RafK »
The only thing you got right is that I have frazzled Cyan until he slipped up. Absolutely- that's the whole point of keeping a scummy person talking. Eventually he said something which reveals he's ignorant of something a townie should know (the only saving grace for him is that the mafia should know it too, hence why cp and I have suggested he's neutral).
Not exactly. See, what you sometimes inspire is a completely annoyed response beyond the scope of the actual game. While that may very well draw a scum into "slipping" it also might draw townies into poor defenses and counter-attacks (ad hom, etc.).
Funny you mention revealing too much - I'm accusing you of the exact same thing here, you know.
Quote from RafK »
Eventually he messed up his story and revealed he's lying. Are you going to just explain this stuff away as being emotional?
Aside from the one contradiction above, I'm content believing his claim and reactions are genuine townie Cyan, yeah. I'd like to hear what he says about that.
EWP: He's answered that. My Matrix mythos is a bit rusty, I'll check the wiki.
Im at work so i cant say much, but i just wanted to get this in:
lets not automatically guess that the machines are behind this. After all, Arim was an agent (a machine) and was town.
Also i still don't believe Cyan's claim.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Do you know how the Matrix mythos works at all, ZDS? The machines/architect/whatever are *always* aware of The One, and always know he will reach the architect, etc etc. There is nothing wrong with my explanation. And I didn't say the machines are trying to kill Connor, I said he trains people to fight against him and it's my job to protect him.
Actually, I am pretty sure the machines would have been just as happy if they had caught and killed Neo. Because both would have removed the threat of The One until another one showed up eventually.
But the very nature of The One is such that the machines always fail to catch him and kill him. But if they could, that would be an acceptable solution to the problem.
It's like... Luke Skywalker. The Emperor would have been just as happy if Vader had blown him up back during the first battle for the Death Star. But since he survived and ended up on the 2nd Death Star, better try to convert him first. Then kill him if that fails.
As retardedly off-topic as all of this is getting, that does not mesh with the Matrix at all. At one point in the movie, the Architect says that The One *always* reaches him. The Matrix has/had been run 6 times, and all 6 times The One reached the Architect and made the decision. Connor's desire to do anything to keep humanity from being destroyed makes him the perfect random off-genre character for this. The Architect would not want Neo to get killed, because that would cause unpredictability in the program itself and might not lead to what he thinks is the only possible conclusion(The One choosing however many people to survive and repopulate Zion etc etc). So no Grak, you're wrong. Furthermore, if the machines killed 'The One', another one could not show up, because of the anomalies in the code that allow the one to become 'born' in the first place. Again, this would disrupt the true course of the Matrix.
Actually, I am pretty sure the machines would have been just as happy if they had caught and killed Neo. Because both would have removed the threat of The One until another one showed up eventually.
But the very nature of The One is such that the machines always fail to catch him and kill him. But if they could, that would be an acceptable solution to the problem.
It's like... Luke Skywalker. The Emperor would have been just as happy if Vader had blown him up back during the first battle for the Death Star. But since he survived and ended up on the 2nd Death Star, better try to convert him first. Then kill him if that fails.
I doubt that the machines would have been just as happy to kill Neo as they would have been for The One to reach the source. Neo-Architect conversation (link is spotty)
When Neo brings up the charge that the Architect is lying here (this one is better)
Neo: "You won’t let it happen, you can’t. You need human beings to survive."
The Architect responds: "There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept..."
While that lends itself to the idea that the machines could kills Neo, it would not be the optimal solution by them. I.E. they would prefer to maintain their current levels but have contingency planning just in case.
Aside from the one contradiction above, I'm content believing his claim and reactions are genuine townie Cyan, yeah. I'd like to hear what he says about that.
EWP: He's answered that. My Matrix mythos is a bit rusty, I'll check the wiki.
I’m not meaning to single you out DYH, yours is the most recent post to express this sentiment. I am interested to hear, from you and anyone else with this opinion, at what point, in Cyan’s reaction to Grak’s case, my posts, Cyan’s actually addressing of Grak’s case and his evolving and expanding roleclaim, does Cyan’s reactions begin to appear like those of a genuine town?
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As retardedly off-topic as all of this is getting, that does not mesh with the Matrix at all. At one point in the movie, the Architect says that The One *always* reaches him. The Matrix has/had been run 6 times, and all 6 times The One reached the Architect and made the decision. Connor's desire to do anything to keep humanity from being destroyed makes him the perfect random off-genre character for this. The Architect would not want Neo to get killed, because that would cause unpredictability in the program itself and might not lead to what he thinks is the only possible conclusion(The One choosing however many people to survive and repopulate Zion etc etc). So no Grak, you're wrong. Furthermore, if the machines killed 'The One', another one could not show up, because of the anomalies in the code that allow the one to become 'born' in the first place. Again, this would disrupt the true course of the Matrix.
That doesn't make any sense. Killing Neo doesn't break the matrix, nor does it stop a new "One" from being born.
The only threat would be that Zion would overpopulate in the meantime, and they would have to wipe it out.
The concepts are not mystical and magical.... in order for the matrix to work, they had to give people the CHOICE to accept it or reject it. As a result, some small % will reject it and wakeup in the real world.
They needed to keep that "choice" alive so that people could reject the matrix and the zionists could create and rescue people in the matrix.
Kinda like how microsoft propped Apple up for about a decade, so they could point at them and say "look! We aren't anti-competition! THere's always Apple!"
So now simple chaos combined with the human condition means that every so many births someone like Neo will be born who can control the matrix in a way that other humans cannot. This ability will lead him to try to find the answers to the matrix and will eventually lead him to the core.
There, the architect tells him he can either start Zion over, or the machines will wipe out mankind completely.
The machines are bluffing, of course. They will not wipe out mankind. Neo doesn't have to get "reinserted" into the source for the Matrix to survive. We know this, because the Matrix did not crash when he chose to go back and save trinity. In fact, Neo going back and fighting Smith was what saved the matrix.
So, in conclusion, had the machines sucessfully killed Neo, they could have just said "well... let's not take out Zion now... let's maybe up our patrols, kill off a few more humans, and wait till the next One shows up."
And this is only slightly off topic... we are discussing flavor, and who our enemies might be.
If the enemy is the machines, then it's not the machines as a whole... because we know atleast ONE Agent was on our team, so it's only logical that the architect and whomeever he works for are as well.
Now, it's possible that some OTHER machines (*cough* skynet *cough*) are our enemies.... and perhaps it represents a war going on BETWEEN different machine factions (Hellloooooooooo snow crash?) and it's extremely plausible that one of these other factions might want to kill of The One in hopes that they can create some kind of system wide crash (Azrael could create whatever plausible mythos he wants for this) and take out the faction of the machines that are loyal to the Architect and his band.
But we don't know that eitehr way. It's all speculation.
The point I am making is that the moderator is completely free to PLAUSIBLY make anyone he wants to the scum in this game (with maybe some very very corner case characters as the exception). And anyone arguing that blah blah blah couldn't possibly be scum is flat out wrong.
I have been going back and forth in my mind about this. Here is my conclusion. Cyan has been hovering too close to a lynch for too long. He's said everything he can say and that's not good enough for most of the people voting him. Additionally, there are people like Loran hovering in the wings just waiting to pounce on him as soon as everyone tells him it's okay.
Under these circumstances, Cyan's lynch would seem inevitable. Either we are going to get deadlined, or someone's just going to bite the bullet in order to get the day over with.
I believe he's a mis-lynch. Now, I would argue against the lynch of anyone that I thought was a townie, but most times I don't have any actual information to back up the argument. It's just my opinion. In this case, however, I've got more. So the question is, is telling what I know in order to stop the lynch worth the risk of revealing said information to the scum? Considering the scum may very well have cued into this already, I believe it is.
I am John Connor, Townie Mentor.
Everything Cyan is saying is accurate. He knows my role. He has been given my backstory. He doesn't know my ability.
I do not see a realistic set of circumstances under which he's lying. Yes, it occurred to me when I got the role that there might be Terminators running around in this game, but I had no idea of the specifics. It occurred to me that someone might be "out" to get me specifically. But I don't actually think that anymore. At worst, there's possibly a Neutral role running around with a "Hit List" of sorts. But I do not believe such a role would be given information about my origins and my purpose. Not the way Cyan has described them. Would this hypothetical Hit-Man be given this kind of unnecessary background information for everyone on his "Hit List?" What a strange role PM that would be.
I was not told anything about Cyan in my role PM. But his presense and his claim makes sense to me.
I would now appreciate it if everyone would cut out the totally pointless flavor arguments and lay off my bodyguard.
Thank you.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Incidentally, Axelrod, you just made my role useful, maybe broken. I hope you like ice cream.
You want to kill me, don't you.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I think I need to eat crow regarding calling Xyre blatant scum earlier. There's a case there, but I can't get behind it anymore. He's actually started acting fairly pro-town over the past few days, and whilst I don't feel happy dropping him totally, I don't want to pursue him over other people just for the to maintain momentum. (that's why I didn't post the PBPA the other day. I did actually write it, and it's in my mafiascum notes, but I don't really feel comfortable doing a PBPA on someone I'm not sure is scum).
Just a thought (not that i think xyre's scum), but pbpa's of players that have the conclusion of a person NOT being scum are still rather useful you know.
Axel's claim would have me unvote for now, except that i dont think i voted cyan (i pseudovoted him so as not to lynch). I'm a bit upset that Axel decided to out himself though.
Sigh, where to next.
(Sidenote, I have no power at home, and im at work at the moment. SO i may be off line for a bit after 3. )
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
I have been going back and forth in my mind about this. Here is my conclusion. Cyan has been hovering too close to a lynch for too long. He's said everything he can say and that's not good enough for most of the people voting him. Additionally, there are people like Loran hovering in the wings just waiting to pounce on him as soon as everyone tells him it's okay.
Under these circumstances, Cyan's lynch would seem inevitable. Either we are going to get deadlined, or someone's just going to bite the bullet in order to get the day over with.
I believe he's a mis-lynch. Now, I would argue against the lynch of anyone that I thought was a townie, but most times I don't have any actual information to back up the argument. It's just my opinion. In this case, however, I've got more. So the question is, is telling what I know in order to stop the lynch worth the risk of revealing said information to the scum? Considering the scum may very well have cued into this already, I believe it is.
I am John Connor, Townie Mentor.
Everything Cyan is saying is accurate. He knows my role. He has been given my backstory. He doesn't know my ability.
I do not see a realistic set of circumstances under which he's lying. Yes, it occurred to me when I got the role that there might be Terminators running around in this game, but I had no idea of the specifics. It occurred to me that someone might be "out" to get me specifically. But I don't actually think that anymore. At worst, there's possibly a Neutral role running around with a "Hit List" of sorts. But I do not believe such a role would be given information about my origins and my purpose. Not the way Cyan has described them. Would this hypothetical Hit-Man be given this kind of unnecessary background information for everyone on his "Hit List?" What a strange role PM that would be.
I was not told anything about Cyan in my role PM. But his presense and his claim makes sense to me.
I would now appreciate it if everyone would cut out the totally pointless flavor arguments and lay off my bodyguard.
Thank you.
UNVOTE:CYAN
I worry that this maybe letting off a role that is not designed to protect you but one that is designed to kill you Axe. For the time being though, this confirmation is enough to make me seriously reconsider Cyan.
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I would now appreciate it if everyone would cut out the totally pointless flavor arguments and lay off my bodyguard.
Thank you.
Alright. Only about 5 or 6 people could have made this claim and I'd have believed them, but there's no way Axelrod makes this **** up.
BTW, you were right... you were projecting too much. I almost unvoted because I thought you were a cop of some kind with an innocent on Cyan, but then I kept saying to myself "Why in the hell would he investigate Cyan?"
Vote: Loran
For now. There's a good chance I move that when I've thought about it and reviewed my notes a bit more.
For example, I don't like the fact that I have 0 notes on Dagger. I also have not liked a lot of what Xyre has said.
I'm up dfor lynching LJustus. I still think his claim stinks, and I'm still willing to be the lynch vote, in case he's some kind of bomb or something.
On second thought, an investigation here seems like the best solution. I can see LJustus running some kind of gambit here as scum, but, not as a Godfather.
@Loran: PBPA's of players that end up with you thinking they're not scum aren't that useful. The idea of a PBPA(a good one at least, IMO) is to engage as many people in discussion as possible, and get the person that it's written about to explain their mindset at the time of the posts. When they're pro-town posts, not only is this not necessary, but all they're going to say is 'yeah I agree, I think I'm pro-town too!'.
Hawkeye's last post really bothers me. It's like he knows the only logical course of action now is to abandon my wagon, but he feels the need to hedge his bets in doing so, like he has a guilty conscience about it.
In Loran's last post, I can't help but read 'I'm a bit decided that Axel decided to out himself' as 'I'm disappointed that we didn't get to mislynch a townie and get away with it'.Unvote, Vote Loran
Agreed I still don't like atlseal, especially where we know we have one group of roles from outside the Matrix universe from the Terminator Universe. Having a claimed Alice in Wonderland-themed as well makes me suspicious even moreso.
I need to think.
*thinks*
Okay, done. Unvote Cyan, Vote : Loran16.
I'm in favor of Cyan getting investigated, since he has thrown out some big scum/neutral tells. However, with Axelrod's claim, especially the "what Cyan is saying is accurate" part (I could care less about the name claim), he's no longer a good lynch.
Case on loranscum to be expected for tonight or tomorrow.
EWP : I'm not barning Grak's vote, by the way.
I know I have him in my notes more, but off the top of my head, his commentary about me including him on my list of people that had the chance to hammer Cyan and didn't, seems like he is acting rather jumpy.
And of course, LAL is a perfectly valid mafia strategy with proven results on MTG:S and WIFOM.*
*This comment was meant in humor and does not necessarily reflect the views of the town as a whole. Past results are not indicative of future success.
If I wasn't already voting myself at this point, I'd unvote and vote myself. Seriously, let's not let any more information get to the Mafia on this marathon Day 1. If we're going to run everyone up to claim range, we might as well just kick each game off with a mass claim and try and sort that out. (/semi-sarcasm)
I'd prefer a neutral third-party (other than Cyan or myself) to be the hammer. I can see how he, as the T-800, would get bonuses for killing. This takes into account the possibility that he may still be lying about his role just a teensy-weensy bit. But seriously, I originally wanted to be the hammer vote so I could control the timing of the lynch. Cyan doesn't even trust that because I might be a bomb. How does that make sense Cy?
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Hvir hasn't made an appearance here in three days though he's been active on the site. I am wondering about his change of heart as evidenced in these three consecutive posts:
Vote Cyan on 7-11-07
Reason appears to be because Cyan has expressed suspicion of LJustus.
Unvote Cyan on 7-15-07
After Cyan's claim. Doesn't seem to express any real suspicion or doubt. Wonder's aloud if there's a downside to JC coming out.
Vote Cyan on 7-16-07.
I do not see from this post what has changed to make Hvir suspicious again.
The fact that Cyan was adamantly saying JC should not come out? Cyan's position in that regard was perfectly reasonable if he was telling the truth. It may also turn out to be that my coming out was a mistake, but time will tell.
I don't have an interest in lynching LJustus right now. Certainly not over Hvir.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Also, I want to give atlseal a pool of people he can choose for investigation tonight. Remove several of the 'little too convenient' choices.
I'd be up for that, actually. In fact, I was debating earlier whether I should ask everyone else what their top investigation choice would be because I'm not normally very good at picking out the finer suspicions.
Personally, I still think the play for today is to lynch LJ.
Has Hvir been acting suspiciously? Yeah, a little but not so much in my mind as to warrent a lynch. This is why I would be up for LJ investigating him if we go with the LJ plan.
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If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
I was reading this and got the feeling it was pretty much going nowhere ; since nothing really new happened, my vote on Cyan was fine, that is, until Axelrod's claim.
On a completely different subject, Grakthis and RafK are so much in front of town that they must be townies or mafia, I think. I can't really see them with a power role. I'm not saying they must be in the same clan, nothing like this. But they deserve some attention later, if not right now.
Oh, and Vote Ljustus. We may need to get that investigation, after all.
I was reading this and got the feeling it was pretty much going nowhere ; since nothing really new happened, my vote on Cyan was fine, that is, until Axelrod's claim.
On a completely different subject, Grakthis and RafK are so much in front of town that they must be townies or mafia, I think. I can't really see them with a power role. I'm not saying they must be in the same clan, nothing like this. But they deserve some attention later, if not right now.
Oh, and Vote Ljustus. We may need to get that investigation, after all.
Are you kidding? They must be town or mafia, but not necessarily both on the same side?
Yes, I think you might be onto something there.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Mmm. Axelrod was my #1 suspect for Connor for obvious reasons, so that's not a shock. Despite Alx's automatic fishing suggestion, I too would be interested in knowing the flavour under which Axel is with the town- after all, knowing that Connor exists (which I already believed) does not invalidate the fact that Cyan's story changed or that Cyan's story didn't seem to make sense in the context of what we know about the game.
J-Effe: As Axel subtly points out, that might be one of the most fence-sitting posts of the game so far (and that's saying something). EVERYONE might be town or mafia and is not necessarily on the same side.
DYH: Maybe there are machines in the mafia, I don't know, but what I do know is that the mafia is not "the machines" as a group. Which is public knowledge anyway due to arimnaes. And hence Cyan's claim that "fighting the machines = town" is wrong, and was him making BS flavour arguments. Could you at least acknowledge that?
Unvote Cyan, based on Axelrod's roleclaim. And since claiming roles seems to be in vogue...
I am Alice, also from the Alice in Wonderland series. Each night, I travel to a new location in either Alice in Wonderland or Through the Looking Glass by informing the moderator of my intended destination. I have no idea what in-game effect this has. This is the reason I didn't have problems believing atlseal's roleclaim as the Cheshire Cat, although I'm still uncertain as to his alignment.
Unvote Cyan, based on Axelrod's roleclaim. And since claiming roles seems to be in vogue...
I am Alice, also from the Alice in Wonderland series. Each night, I travel to a new location in either Alice in Wonderland or Through the Looking Glass by informing the moderator of my intended destination. I have no idea what in-game effect this has. This is the reason I didn't have problems believing atlseal's roleclaim as the Cheshire Cat, although I'm still uncertain as to his alignment.
Well, that makes no sense at all....
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I can choose any location within either one of the two books. I have not been given directions as to what would constitute a valid choice, although I'll probably start with the Queen of Hearts' rose garden.
I can choose any location within either one of the two books. I have not been given directions as to what would constitute a valid choice, although I'll probably start with the Queen of Hearts' rose garden.
And you didn't ask?
Do you have a reason for being in the Matrix?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Also, you're Alice? Just Alice? Nothing else along with that?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Is there a reason why H-guy claimed right now. I didn't think he was that close to claim range.
So what your claim boils down to is you can a place that may or may not be an option, possibly go to this spot that may or may not have an ingame effect (that is on the rest of the game), and that going there during the night may or may not have harmful consequences to you.
And you can willingly play this Russian Roulette every night?
Wow, that's hard to swallow. Vote: H-guy
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And I maintained all along that I was holding back part of my role. This is like the third time that I have explained this directly to you. I provided the town with this information, fully expecting to be lynched, *because* of DotA. I didn't think that people magically changed their mind about it in the last month. I don't remember any post-game discussion in DotA where it was decided that testing a double-life claim is no longer a good idea. I made that post fully expecting to be lynched shortly thereafter, because that is what has happened in both instances of a double-life that I have been involved in. I provided the town with this information before I was lynched because it would not benefit the town for me to withhold that info past my lynch. I assumed that I would be lynched shortly thereafter, but I still wanted the town to have all of the information they could. It seemed particularly important because people kept saying that my lynch would clear alot of things up, but in reality, me being lynched today will answer no questions whatsoever.
@Hawkeye: I have already apologized for what you refer to as misrepresenting your position(in reality, I simply missed it). I fail to see the purpose in bringing it up again.
Incidentally, Hawkeye, I already answered the question that Vampyr asked. It was a typo, which I think isn't that difficult to figure out. Now, you are guilty of exactly what you just accused me of. Does that make you scum? Sometimes, people just miss things, like you apparently just did.
I didn't misrepresent you at all. You said flat out that fighting the machines = town. Which pretty conclusively demonstrates you don't actually know what you're talking about.
I'm just left working out whether you're mafia or neutral.
Of course, a neutral team with 3 lives between 2 players is also a lot more believable than 2 townies with the same. Maybe John Connor is a Hitman, and he really does have a bodyguard?
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And honestly, if you want to get *really* picky, regarding Raf's example of Arimnaes being town, Arimnaes isn't a machine anyway. The agents are programs. I feel like the way you both(now) are going about this is ridiculously scummy. You are taking a flavor-based comment that I made, applying even more flavor to it, and trying to use that to somehow extrapolate that not only I, but also John Connor, must be some kind of scum. I am honestly flabberghasted here.
Are you seriously trying to draw a distinction between fighting the machines and killing the machines?
In any event, you're still on the wrong track. Anyone that fights the machines is NOT obviously town.
(Also, just to be picky, your story used to be that John Connor was placed here by the machines to be "the one", not that he came here to teach people to fight machines).
If you want to get really picky, we're in the Matrix, are we not? In the Matrix, the Machines are represented by their programs (like the Agents). The Machines are not physically present in the Matrix.
I am curious, though, as to why you seem so sure that anything that fights the machines is not obviously town. It seems a peculiar point for you to get hung up on.
And both things that I have stated are part of the same story/flavor, it is just not possible for me to explain how without violating my role PM.
And the machines being 'represented' by Agents is not really correct. Yes, machines don't go into the matrix. But the Agents don't represent them, they represent the will of the matrix itself(which is also not a machine).
Seriously, this is all stupid. You have already, finally/seemingly, admitted that it is highly unlikely that I am mafia. Yet you're still arguing all of this. Why? Because you think I might be neutral? Fine, we all know that you think I might be neutral. Inevitably you will be proven wrong. In the meantime, surely there is something more beneficial to talk about than splitting hairs over role PM flavor?
What troubles me is that you're using this as a lean to cast doubt on the alignment of John Connor himself. Connor is town. There is no way conceivable that he is not town. And it is not fair/realistic for you to cast doubt on Connor himself when he is not the one under attack, and we know nothing whatsoever about his role. These recent posts by you are a huge detriment to Connor, and by extension, to the town itself.
And they're frustrating to me, because so much of this is flavor based, and while it would be easy for me to conclusively explain how all of the flavor works together, the risk of violating the don't quote your PMs rule is too great. I understand if this comes across as an emotional plea, and I don't really mean for it to. But the position you are putting me in is impossible.
You're doing it again.
"I said FIGHT the machines not KILL the machines!"
Here comes the 300 pound biker, and he is NOT happy with you!
"I said MACHINES, not the programs that represent the machines and obey the machines inside of the matrix!"
He's putting on his brass knuckles! Better keep backtracking! Maybe if you throw out some more outlandish claims like that, he'll totally believe you.
Can we lynch this guy, please? There is no way he's a townie.
Also, I have no idea what the hell this 300 pound biker crap is. Is it remotely possible for you to speak in examples or metaphors that other people get? After a million MT and 'ML"(whatever that means) examples that everyone but Axelrod was clueless about it, which makes it difficult to interact with. This 300 pound b iker crap is more of the same.
It's not helping that he's being baited on hair-splitting flavor arguments by RafK, here, who seems to know a bit too much about what exactly would encompass a scum and what wouldn't. Having only seen the movies, I would think machines = bad guys. More importantly, I haven't seen the Terminator series, but wasn't Conner there to teach them how to defeat the machines? Doesn't that fit flavorfully?
RafK seems awfully caught up on flavor, and coincidentally then unvotes when he realizes this wagon is losing steam - citing Cyan as likely neutral based on this "slip". Kinda like how he backed off arguing on me citing 'the reasoning having left the station' when, in fact, it was never there at all and no one else had picked up on my wagon.
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From what I understand, and I don't claim to be a Terminator series expert, is that Connor was one of a few people left alive after the machines attacked that had weapons and combat training as well as combat tactics and some combat experience. He was a reluctant, or maybe better described as "right place, right time," leader who took the job because of his knowledge and no one else wanted it.
If anyone else has a better grasp of things, please correct any mistakes I've made.
I'm of the opinion that if Connor is in this game, that I would give him the designation of town, regardless of the player's play so far. Connor was humanity's hope against the machines. If he's anything but town, I'd like to see the creativity behind that.
Game mechanically, would there ever be a reason to have a BG protecting a townie player but the BG not be a townie?
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Could you explain how it's hair-splitting flavour that Cyan thinks this game is about fighting the machines when it isn't? Could you explain to me how Cyan isn't the one trying to do the hair-splitting by drawing a distinction between fighting machines and killing them (and how that's academic when the town's objective is neither?). Could you explain to me how Cyan is not making stuff up as he goes along when he earlier said John Connor was inserted into the matrix by machines and now he says John Connor is here to teach people to fight machines?
The only thing you got right is that I have frazzled Cyan until he slipped up. Absolutely- that's the whole point of keeping a scummy person talking. Eventually he said something which reveals he's ignorant of something a townie should know (the only saving grace for him is that the mafia should know it too, hence why cp and I have suggested he's neutral). Eventually he messed up his story and revealed he's lying. Are you going to just explain this stuff away as being emotional?
Think about the movies for a second. When Neo reaches the architect, the architect explains how 'The One' works. That means that the architect knew that Neo would reach him. But that didn't stop the agents from trying to kill him, nor did it stop the machines from trying to blow up the Nebuchanezzar(spelling) while he was on it, right? Right. Did you just forget all of this, or what?
I can't answer the 2 lives question any more specifically than I already have. What I listed that you quoted was just flavor(but validly so), and was not the reason that was listed in my role PM. There is literally no way for me to give that reason without it being a quote of my role PM.
Yep, Elegant mafia. Already happened.
From the storyline. You tell me - how do you know it isn't the machines?
The town's objective is to eliminate whomever's responsible. Unless you happen to know exactly who that is - refer to the answer above.
I just saw this when ZDS posted it - I'd like an answer to that from Cyan, pronto.
Not exactly. See, what you sometimes inspire is a completely annoyed response beyond the scope of the actual game. While that may very well draw a scum into "slipping" it also might draw townies into poor defenses and counter-attacks (ad hom, etc.).
Funny you mention revealing too much - I'm accusing you of the exact same thing here, you know.
Aside from the one contradiction above, I'm content believing his claim and reactions are genuine townie Cyan, yeah. I'd like to hear what he says about that.
EWP: He's answered that. My Matrix mythos is a bit rusty, I'll check the wiki.
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lets not automatically guess that the machines are behind this. After all, Arim was an agent (a machine) and was town.
Also i still don't believe Cyan's claim.
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Actually, I am pretty sure the machines would have been just as happy if they had caught and killed Neo. Because both would have removed the threat of The One until another one showed up eventually.
But the very nature of The One is such that the machines always fail to catch him and kill him. But if they could, that would be an acceptable solution to the problem.
It's like... Luke Skywalker. The Emperor would have been just as happy if Vader had blown him up back during the first battle for the Death Star. But since he survived and ended up on the 2nd Death Star, better try to convert him first. Then kill him if that fails.
I doubt that the machines would have been just as happy to kill Neo as they would have been for The One to reach the source.
Neo-Architect conversation (link is spotty)
When Neo brings up the charge that the Architect is lying here (this one is better)
Neo: "You won’t let it happen, you can’t. You need human beings to survive."
The Architect responds: "There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept..."
While that lends itself to the idea that the machines could kills Neo, it would not be the optimal solution by them. I.E. they would prefer to maintain their current levels but have contingency planning just in case.
I’m not meaning to single you out DYH, yours is the most recent post to express this sentiment. I am interested to hear, from you and anyone else with this opinion, at what point, in Cyan’s reaction to Grak’s case, my posts, Cyan’s actually addressing of Grak’s case and his evolving and expanding roleclaim, does Cyan’s reactions begin to appear like those of a genuine town?
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That doesn't make any sense. Killing Neo doesn't break the matrix, nor does it stop a new "One" from being born.
The only threat would be that Zion would overpopulate in the meantime, and they would have to wipe it out.
The concepts are not mystical and magical.... in order for the matrix to work, they had to give people the CHOICE to accept it or reject it. As a result, some small % will reject it and wakeup in the real world.
They needed to keep that "choice" alive so that people could reject the matrix and the zionists could create and rescue people in the matrix.
Kinda like how microsoft propped Apple up for about a decade, so they could point at them and say "look! We aren't anti-competition! THere's always Apple!"
So now simple chaos combined with the human condition means that every so many births someone like Neo will be born who can control the matrix in a way that other humans cannot. This ability will lead him to try to find the answers to the matrix and will eventually lead him to the core.
There, the architect tells him he can either start Zion over, or the machines will wipe out mankind completely.
The machines are bluffing, of course. They will not wipe out mankind. Neo doesn't have to get "reinserted" into the source for the Matrix to survive. We know this, because the Matrix did not crash when he chose to go back and save trinity. In fact, Neo going back and fighting Smith was what saved the matrix.
So, in conclusion, had the machines sucessfully killed Neo, they could have just said "well... let's not take out Zion now... let's maybe up our patrols, kill off a few more humans, and wait till the next One shows up."
And this is only slightly off topic... we are discussing flavor, and who our enemies might be.
If the enemy is the machines, then it's not the machines as a whole... because we know atleast ONE Agent was on our team, so it's only logical that the architect and whomeever he works for are as well.
Now, it's possible that some OTHER machines (*cough* skynet *cough*) are our enemies.... and perhaps it represents a war going on BETWEEN different machine factions (Hellloooooooooo snow crash?) and it's extremely plausible that one of these other factions might want to kill of The One in hopes that they can create some kind of system wide crash (Azrael could create whatever plausible mythos he wants for this) and take out the faction of the machines that are loyal to the Architect and his band.
But we don't know that eitehr way. It's all speculation.
The point I am making is that the moderator is completely free to PLAUSIBLY make anyone he wants to the scum in this game (with maybe some very very corner case characters as the exception). And anyone arguing that blah blah blah couldn't possibly be scum is flat out wrong.
Under these circumstances, Cyan's lynch would seem inevitable. Either we are going to get deadlined, or someone's just going to bite the bullet in order to get the day over with.
I believe he's a mis-lynch. Now, I would argue against the lynch of anyone that I thought was a townie, but most times I don't have any actual information to back up the argument. It's just my opinion. In this case, however, I've got more. So the question is, is telling what I know in order to stop the lynch worth the risk of revealing said information to the scum? Considering the scum may very well have cued into this already, I believe it is.
I am John Connor, Townie Mentor.
Everything Cyan is saying is accurate. He knows my role. He has been given my backstory. He doesn't know my ability.
I do not see a realistic set of circumstances under which he's lying. Yes, it occurred to me when I got the role that there might be Terminators running around in this game, but I had no idea of the specifics. It occurred to me that someone might be "out" to get me specifically. But I don't actually think that anymore. At worst, there's possibly a Neutral role running around with a "Hit List" of sorts. But I do not believe such a role would be given information about my origins and my purpose. Not the way Cyan has described them. Would this hypothetical Hit-Man be given this kind of unnecessary background information for everyone on his "Hit List?" What a strange role PM that would be.
I was not told anything about Cyan in my role PM. But his presense and his claim makes sense to me.
I would now appreciate it if everyone would cut out the totally pointless flavor arguments and lay off my bodyguard.
Thank you.
Incidentally, Axelrod, you just made my role useful, maybe broken. I hope you like ice cream.
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You want to kill me, don't you.
Just a thought (not that i think xyre's scum), but pbpa's of players that have the conclusion of a person NOT being scum are still rather useful you know.
Axel's claim would have me unvote for now, except that i dont think i voted cyan (i pseudovoted him so as not to lynch). I'm a bit upset that Axel decided to out himself though.
Sigh, where to next.
(Sidenote, I have no power at home, and im at work at the moment. SO i may be off line for a bit after 3. )
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
UNVOTE:CYAN
I worry that this maybe letting off a role that is not designed to protect you but one that is designed to kill you Axe. For the time being though, this confirmation is enough to make me seriously reconsider Cyan.
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Alright. Only about 5 or 6 people could have made this claim and I'd have believed them, but there's no way Axelrod makes this **** up.
BTW, you were right... you were projecting too much. I almost unvoted because I thought you were a cop of some kind with an innocent on Cyan, but then I kept saying to myself "Why in the hell would he investigate Cyan?"
Vote: Loran
For now. There's a good chance I move that when I've thought about it and reviewed my notes a bit more.
For example, I don't like the fact that I have 0 notes on Dagger. I also have not liked a lot of what Xyre has said.
On second thought, an investigation here seems like the best solution. I can see LJustus running some kind of gambit here as scum, but, not as a Godfather.
@Loran: PBPA's of players that end up with you thinking they're not scum aren't that useful. The idea of a PBPA(a good one at least, IMO) is to engage as many people in discussion as possible, and get the person that it's written about to explain their mindset at the time of the posts. When they're pro-town posts, not only is this not necessary, but all they're going to say is 'yeah I agree, I think I'm pro-town too!'.
Hawkeye's last post really bothers me. It's like he knows the only logical course of action now is to abandon my wagon, but he feels the need to hedge his bets in doing so, like he has a guilty conscience about it.
In Loran's last post, I can't help but read 'I'm a bit decided that Axel decided to out himself' as 'I'm disappointed that we didn't get to mislynch a townie and get away with it'.Unvote, Vote Loran
He's the pond in which you can fish.
Agreed
I still don't like atlseal, especially where we know we have one group of roles from outside the Matrix universe from the Terminator Universe. Having a claimed Alice in Wonderland-themed as well makes me suspicious even moreso.
I know I have him in my notes more, but off the top of my head, his commentary about me including him on my list of people that had the chance to hammer Cyan and didn't, seems like he is acting rather jumpy.
And of course, LAL is a perfectly valid mafia strategy with proven results on MTG:S and WIFOM.*
*This comment was meant in humor and does not necessarily reflect the views of the town as a whole. Past results are not indicative of future success.
This is crazy.
Oh no, you've discovered my secret plan, whatever shall I do?
Anyway, I suppose I can now see the rationale behind getting LJustus' investigation now. Vote LJustus.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
I'd prefer a neutral third-party (other than Cyan or myself) to be the hammer. I can see how he, as the T-800, would get bonuses for killing. This takes into account the possibility that he may still be lying about his role just a teensy-weensy bit. But seriously, I originally wanted to be the hammer vote so I could control the timing of the lynch. Cyan doesn't even trust that because I might be a bomb. How does that make sense Cy?
Unvote.
Mafia MVP BM Mafia
Mafia MVP Matrix Mafia
Vote Cyan on 7-11-07
Reason appears to be because Cyan has expressed suspicion of LJustus.
Unvote Cyan on 7-15-07
After Cyan's claim. Doesn't seem to express any real suspicion or doubt. Wonder's aloud if there's a downside to JC coming out.
Vote Cyan on 7-16-07.
I do not see from this post what has changed to make Hvir suspicious again.
The fact that Cyan was adamantly saying JC should not come out? Cyan's position in that regard was perfectly reasonable if he was telling the truth. It may also turn out to be that my coming out was a mistake, but time will tell.
I don't have an interest in lynching LJustus right now. Certainly not over Hvir.
I'd be up for that, actually. In fact, I was debating earlier whether I should ask everyone else what their top investigation choice would be because I'm not normally very good at picking out the finer suspicions.
Personally, I still think the play for today is to lynch LJ.
Has Hvir been acting suspiciously? Yeah, a little but not so much in my mind as to warrent a lynch. This is why I would be up for LJ investigating him if we go with the LJ plan.
Mafia MVP BM Mafia
Mafia MVP Matrix Mafia
Then why aren't you voting for one of them?
I was reading this and got the feeling it was pretty much going nowhere ; since nothing really new happened, my vote on Cyan was fine, that is, until Axelrod's claim.
On a completely different subject, Grakthis and RafK are so much in front of town that they must be townies or mafia, I think. I can't really see them with a power role. I'm not saying they must be in the same clan, nothing like this. But they deserve some attention later, if not right now.
Oh, and Vote Ljustus. We may need to get that investigation, after all.
Are you kidding? They must be town or mafia, but not necessarily both on the same side?
Yes, I think you might be onto something there.
J-Effe: As Axel subtly points out, that might be one of the most fence-sitting posts of the game so far (and that's saying something). EVERYONE might be town or mafia and is not necessarily on the same side.
DYH: Maybe there are machines in the mafia, I don't know, but what I do know is that the mafia is not "the machines" as a group. Which is public knowledge anyway due to arimnaes. And hence Cyan's claim that "fighting the machines = town" is wrong, and was him making BS flavour arguments. Could you at least acknowledge that?
Unvote Cyan, based on Axelrod's roleclaim. And since claiming roles seems to be in vogue...
I am Alice, also from the Alice in Wonderland series. Each night, I travel to a new location in either Alice in Wonderland or Through the Looking Glass by informing the moderator of my intended destination. I have no idea what in-game effect this has. This is the reason I didn't have problems believing atlseal's roleclaim as the Cheshire Cat, although I'm still uncertain as to his alignment.
Well, that makes no sense at all....
I can choose any location within either one of the two books. I have not been given directions as to what would constitute a valid choice, although I'll probably start with the Queen of Hearts' rose garden.
And you didn't ask?
Do you have a reason for being in the Matrix?
So what your claim boils down to is you can a place that may or may not be an option, possibly go to this spot that may or may not have an ingame effect (that is on the rest of the game), and that going there during the night may or may not have harmful consequences to you.
And you can willingly play this Russian Roulette every night?
Wow, that's hard to swallow. Vote: H-guy
PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
Matrix Mafia Town MVP
Medieval Mafia Mafia MVP
Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale