if you're telling the truth, you don't even die! And we'll know you're town because NO moderator would make a mafia role that doesn't die to a lynch!
This is a no-lose situation here.
I've designed two different roles in two different games I've modded where a town role became scum of some sort upon being lynched. I've seen it a few other times as well. As such, this isn't the most thrilling argument to me, although I'll agree that you'd be right most of the time.
For the billionth time, it wasn't a panicked response. I would love nothing more than to be investigated and have yet another example of Grakthis thinking he knows what he's talking about when he doesn't. Seriously. I realize that's a childish thing to say, but his attitude infuriates me on a level that has absolutely nothing to do with the game of mafia. I've never in my posting career been so tempted to put someone on Ignore. Not even PetroleumJelly/Shea.
Seriously, for everyone that says my response was 'panicked', I challenge you to find a time that I have *ever* panicked in a game of mafia on this site. Considering how many I've been on, the number of situations like these I've been in, etcetera, it shouldn't be that hard. It doesn't happen. I don't buckle under pressure.
RooTK Mafia much? I think you underestimate exactly how much the impression of your playstyle is embedded in your play from that game.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
I forgot about that game. Yeah alright, I panicked that time. But only because I felt(and still feel) that swinkee cheated. Still, one game out of 40 or something.
The thread is growing to fast for me to follow at work. Alx's partial claim doesn't show much of anything. I'm still in favor of lynching Cyan based on scummy behavior; his claim doesn't do much either way for me. I'm in favor of atl just getting vigged for much the same reason.
Also, if LJustus is the target this early for whatever inane reason, he should target someone who actually contributes, or else someone who is actually suspicious. Targeting a lurker like Hvir isn't going to help us much because it isn't very likely that he'll be coming under fire any time soon, nor that we'll be in a situation where we have to choose whether or not to trust him. I vote Grak.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Where did you get the bolded part from?! I did in fact vote him for the panicked response to the LJ claim. That part was scummy enough to be lynched for. Then unvoted when I realized his claim pushed him into a corner anyway. My logic is impeccable.
Your wording was ambiguous and I assumed you meant something different.
When you said
Quote from Alex »
The only thing genuinely scummy about his behavior was the panicked reaction to LJ's claim. The rest, I'm not buying.
I assumed you meant you weren't buying the votes on Cyan, not that you weren't buying the case I made.
but you thought that his reaction to being investigated was enough for a vote and lynch?!?! ALONE?!?
While I clearly misunderstood you the first time, now that I do understand you, I don't thinkt hat makes you look any better.
Quote from CP »
I've designed two different roles in two different games I've modded where a town role became scum of some sort upon being lynched. I've seen it a few other times as well. As such, this isn't the most thrilling argument to me, although I'll agree that you'd be right most of the time.
Wow... that blows my mind. I'd be pretty upset with a mod who included such a role. It's completely unfair to the town, unless you follow my "a reasonable person could figure it out" rule. And even in that case, it's completely unfair because it forces the town to use TWO lynches on one player. Even if that player is town the first time, the town doesnt' know that. And if he plays scummy and gets lynched, the entire town gets punished for it.
That is TERRIBLE game design.
Barring special circumstances and the "reasonable person" rule, I'd never support such a role.
Axelrod, what's your take? I trust your judgement as a mod on stuff like that. I mean, really, this is not THAT relevant to the game... because if the role has been done before, we have to consider it. But I am curious how you feel about something like that.
Quote from Cyan »
@ZDS: Please. Grakthis is the worst example of a forum bully that I have ever encountered, and I've encountered plenty. When your 'playstyle of choice' makes the game not fun for other people playing, that's not acceptable. And it's not fun being demeaned and talked down to in the manner that Grakthis acts.
You don't like me because I'm in your face right now. I'm surprisingly easy to get along with when you're not trying to kill me in my sleep.
Quote from Alex »
My own role acts, in a certain way, like a weak name cop. Which means that, in some circumstances, I could reveal a player's rolename. Just the rolename. Not role, not alignment. And even that isn't guaranteed. Sometimes, my ability will do nothing (as far as I know). Given this knowledge, I am almost 100% certain atlseal cannot be the role he's claiming. Sheesh, NAME AND ROLE, PLUS VIG/DOC/RB? No.
I don't think that's sound logic. Supercop is just a cop who gets the whole package. he doesn't JUST get rolenames. And you've just claimed your role might at some points possibly reveal a rolename.
Do you think that it's imporbable that Azrael, as a mod, would include weaker versions of roles
but you thought that his reaction to being investigated was enough for a vote and lynch?!?! ALONE?!?
Have you any knowledge of the person involved? We're talking about a player who prides himself on never panicking. His reaction in that instance was WRONG.
Wow... that blows my mind. I'd be pretty upset with a mod who included such a role. It's completely unfair to the town, unless you follow my "a reasonable person could figure it out" rule. And even in that case, it's completely unfair because it forces the town to use TWO lynches on one player. Even if that player is town the first time, the town doesnt' know that. And if he plays scummy and gets lynched, the entire town gets punished for it.
That is TERRIBLE game design.
Barring special circumstances and the "reasonable person" rule, I'd never support such a role.
Axelrod, what's your take? I trust your judgment as a mod on stuff like that. I mean, really, this is not THAT relevant to the game... because if the role has been done before, we have to consider it. But I am curious how you feel about something like that.
I'd be happy to discuss this in a more relevant place, but I would not generally say that a role with different alignment during different 'lives' is any more inherently unbalancing than a role with the same alignment during different 'lives.' It's the multiple lives thing that tends to unbalance things, not a change of alignments, IMO.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
alx wtf were you doing by claiming that? Seriously, what was the harm of letting atl last till tomorrow?
Speakign of atl, if we lynch LJ, i still support (as before) investigating atl. It settles all the questions, and would let us know whether or not to trust a claimed town power role.
@Grathkis and CP via the alignment switching role...there's nothing wrong with that. I've seen a double life mafia in star trek, which was not a problem, and an alignment switcher (and he came up town at first) in douglas adams. I see no problem with the role, though to be fair in both instances, there were clues in the rolenames that might lead to the town suspecting them of being scum.
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
I need to apologize, I really hate using real-life issues to excuse anything, but things have gotten to a point where I'm going to need to ask for a little reprieve and understanding for my lowered posting rate / content.
Firstly, I was recently promoted into a new work position and my new boss apparently thinks I'm Superman. My workload has easily quadrupled from prior months. Secondly, my grandma passed away on Wednesday, and her services were Friday, which is why I wasn't around much that day. Today, I went to help my family clean out her house, and 5 minutes after I got there, the guy next door backed his jeep into my poor little Honda Civic. Once that was reported, I then spent the rest of today cleaning.
I don't need to be replaced or anything, as I'll try to catch up as much as I can tomorrow. My posting during the week will probably suffer a bit from the work and car repair pieces until those get sorted out. Thanks for your patience and understanding.
We will be here when you are ready DYH.
My deepest sympathies to you and your family.
Take care.
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I think Raf is making a mountain out of a molehill with his accusations at Fade. Yes, Fade has been quiet so far today, but it's not like he's been invisible.
Eye on you for that, since it seems to be an attempt to stir up me vs fade or something. I didn't like a post of fade's, as I don't like this one of yours.
Ok, let me tell you one of my favorite mafia analogies. I call it the 300 pound biker.
If you walk into a bar and sit down next to a 300 pound biker and look at him and say "Are you a queer?" he's going to beat the **** out of you. It doesn't matter how many times you say to him "BUT I DIDN'T CALL YOU A QUEER! I ASKED YOU IF YOU ARE!!!"
It doesn't matter how many times you stand here and tell me you weren't suspiscious of Cyan... your posts implied that you were. The 300 pound biker is still beating the crap out of you. you can deny it all you want to, but you and I both know what you were doing.
Scum love to to it. You make the implication without actually making a statement that people can pin down.
I love that analogy.
That's what fade was doing- same type of denial, saying "I'm against lynching LJ! But if we lynch him, let's do this!". And regardless of the fact that of course he wouldn't mention himself, it remains hypocritical for fade to accuse DYH and I of somehow lurking when both of us have match higher postcounts than fade himself.
It's also an excellent explanation of my issue with DYH from earlier, where DYH opposed something but then argued for a policy "if it happens". It's trying to have it both ways, able to say "I was against this!" but also add to the momentum for it. And as such, it is something against both of them. Certainly not higher on the scum charts than others, but it is something to remember for the future, and a reason to keep an eye on them in case either continues to try to have it both ways.
Maybe this will make a difference. Lynching me won't accomplish anything. I have multiple lives.
This is the last bit of my role info that I was trying to keep from the mafia, for wholly obvious reasons. But considering that I still somehow am facing the possibility of being lynched today, it seems better to reveal it now and let people factor it into their decisions than to get lynched and not die and have to explain it tomorrow.
This is also why I said that I want to be the lynch vote on LJustus. I strongly suspect some kind of gambit on his part, and if he's some kind of bomber, I will survive it.
vote Cyan. This seems like a last ditch effort to stay alive.
Ironically for you, if this does turn out to be true, it makes me suspicious that John Connor and yourself are neutrals. Multiple lives, effectively protecting two townies, is extremely strong.
With all respect to Trek mafia and the sort of Judus/Saulus roles cp has suggested, I have a higher opinion of Azrael as a mod than to play on the basis that he would inflict something like that on us (same as I refuse to play around a Jester role). Mafia that survive lynch with no clue to the town = silly. Mafia with incentive to get lynched so they can win with the town, or townies with incentive to get lynched so they can win with the scum = silly.
Spoon's rebuttal is succinct. Some roles are stronger than others. And besides, atlseal's claim is one-shot abilities, not an ability he can use every night. Your logic, alx, is terrible.
You seem to be misunderstanding me. This isn't a last ditch effort to stay alive. Well, I guess that's not entirely true. When I made that post, I was certainly hoping that it would sway people not to lynch me. But that wasn't my primary purpose in creating it. I just wanted the town to have full knowledge that I wouldn't die. Certainly, if I didn't say anything, tomorrow I would have to explain why, and that would have been alot worse. I'm no fool, afterall. I've seen enough dual-life roles around here to know that the typical town reaction is 'let's lynch him to see if he is telling the truth'. Thus far, I've been pleasantly surprised that people mostly didn't respond in this fashion.
I don't really get where you're going with saying we 'must' be neutral. Being able to protect someone twice instead of once(or to be targetted once and still be able to protect once) isn't that amazing, and it makes complete sense in regards to the resilience of the T800, and to how dedicated he is to protecting John Connor. It also makes no sense that Connor would be neutral, but I"m not that worried about it, that will work itself out should I ever die entirely. Your skepticism is noted and understood, but ultimately irrelevant.
Have you any knowledge of the person involved? We're talking about a player who prides himself on never panicking. His reaction in that instance was WRONG.
Ok. No, I don't have knowledge of the person. So that makes more sense now.
Quote from CP »
I'd be happy to discuss this in a more relevant place, but I would not generally say that a role with different alignment during different 'lives' is any more inherently unbalancing than a role with the same alignment during different 'lives.' It's the multiple lives thing that tends to unbalance things, not a change of alignments, IMO.
Yeah... isn't there a thread for discussions like this? I might make a post there so we don't clog up this thread. I think from a BALANCE point of view, you're right, it can be balanced. But I think from a GOOD game design point of view, it's a terrible role.
Quote from Raf »
That's what fade was doing- same type of denial, saying "I'm against lynching LJ! But if we lynch him, let's do this!". And regardless of the fact that of course he wouldn't mention himself, it remains hypocritical for fade to accuse DYH and I of somehow lurking when both of us have match higher postcounts than fade himself.
It's also an excellent explanation of my issue with DYH from earlier, where DYH opposed something but then argued for a policy "if it happens". It's trying to have it both ways, able to say "I was against this!" but also add to the momentum for it. And as such, it is something against both of them. Certainly not higher on the scum charts than others, but it is something to remember for the future, and a reason to keep an eye on them in case either continues to try to have it both ways.
I would agree with this. On both points.
Anytime someone says "I want X... but Y has it's advantages.... vote X" they are guilty of it. A lot of the time, what they are hoping is that some townie will come in and go "I agree with those advantages! vote Y!" that way the townie is seen as the first one to support the bandwagon and the scum can jump on it later.
It's kinda like sticking your toe in the water, telling everyone "Man, the water feels good... don't you guys agree?" and then waiting for someone else to jump in and make sure there are no sharks or rocks there.
Maybe this will make a difference. Lynching me won't accomplish anything. I have multiple lives.
This is the last bit of my role info that I was trying to keep from the mafia, for wholly obvious reasons. But considering that I still somehow am facing the possibility of being lynched today, it seems better to reveal it now and let people factor it into their decisions than to get lynched and not die and have to explain it tomorrow.
This is also why I said that I want to be the lynch vote on LJustus. I strongly suspect some kind of gambit on his part, and if he's some kind of bomber, I will survive it.
Do you expect us to drink this Kool-Ade?
Not a chance, unless it’s Matrix Kool-Ade! Made with only 100% Natural ingredients, No Artificial Colors or Preservatives and available in 15 different Flavors!
If 'no one doubts' that I think LJustus is scum, why are we having this conversation? I mistyped what I was trying to say.
And fine, here is my claim, just so people will leave me alone, and realize that I have a pro-town agenda.
I am T-800, the Model 101 Terminator. I am a Town Bodyguard, for John Connor, who was captured by the machines and inserted in the Matrix as the original 'One'. I do not have a physical body, I am only an essence that exists to protect Connor.
There are a couple of other aspects to my role, but it is in the best interest of the town that they go unstated, and I really don't see why it would be necessary for me to state them anyway.
Can we please look at any number of the opportunistic scum(LJustus, Xyre, etc) on my wagon now? Thanks.
So you are a T-800, Model 101 Terminator robor - but you have no body.
I wonder how that would register if someone investigated you. Interested, you campaigned to lynch Ljustus and have him use his investigation on you.
You are a body guard for John Conner. Interesting. The T-800’s were largely responsible for nearly wiping out the human race, that is except for one the had been captured and reprogrammed.
Now well after your intial role claim you are trying to convince us that not only are you the T-800 robot that has no body and is a bady guard for John copnner, BUT now you also have multiple live! Not only that but that you suspect that Ljustus was lying and is a bomber and this is the reason you campaigned to be Ljustus’ investigation target not to prove your role like you said earlier. Not only that but you will nobly sacrifice one of your lives to prove this if we lynch Ljustus.
Wow, a Bodyguard with multiple lives!
Man, that’s the role of a lifetime.
Is there anything else you’d like to add to your role or change about it?
Yep, I’m not drinking that Kool-Ade.
Next time try Matrix Kool-Ade. It’s the BEST!
My vote is staying right where it is. On Cyan.
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Raf: First, DYH did not, in fact, say that he was against vigging ZDS. He said it was reasonable play, and if the town decided to do it, then ZDS should claim his partner. So, actually, you're wrong. Second, it isn't an especially common role that we're discussing here, so I could be wrong, but from what I've seen and done, a role that changes alignment anytime generally doesn't know that they're going to change alignment. Sure, they can generally make an educated guess, like AS in LoTR Mafia, but they don't actually know.
Cyan: From a flavor perspective, I can hardly think of anyone more suited to a role switching sides upon death than the T-800. That doesn't necessarily mean that I think it's true, though, because it's a flavor argument. Flavor is worthless as an argument for alignment. Also, you're basically announcing that John Connor has three lives now; you don't think that's amazing? Even if he is otherwise vanilla, that's pretty darn awesome. I have trouble imagining the kind of role required of the mafia to balance something like that.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Eye on you for that, since it seems to be an attempt to stir up me vs fade or something. I didn't like a post of fade's, as I don't like this one of yours.
I have to actually agree with you here, Raf. I'm wary of people defending me for no strong reason.
That's what fade was doing- same type of denial, saying "I'm against lynching LJ! But if we lynch him, let's do this!". And regardless of the fact that of course he wouldn't mention himself, it remains hypocritical for fade to accuse DYH and I of somehow lurking when both of us have match higher postcounts than fade himself.
This, however, is again distortion.
1) I have already said that I am willing to lynch LJustus if we do not have a better choice. Thus, I preferred pursuing Cyan, and then I tried to focus on Hvir (who is still missing).
2) I never accused you and DYH of "lurking"; please point out where I said that. It is quite clear that I was saying I would prefer to inspect you or DYH over Cyan, because you both have lower post counts than him and are still unclaimed (unlike Cyan). The point is that we should be trying to maximize our investigation, not waste it on someone who we already have a claim from and has tons of posts to analyze. The reason I singled you and DYH out is because you are two of the most dangerous players to leave alive with an unknown alignment (I also pointed out Axelrod, but he happened to have more posts than both of you).
3) Whether you have more posts than me is irrelevant; I was already removing myself from the equation. If you would rather have me inspected, go ahead.
Raf: Do you disagree that we should use the inspection on someone who we don't have a lot of information on already? Who would you say is a better target?
You guys are almost comically unaware. First of all, I don't ever DIE at all, I have 2 lives precisely because I am hard to kill.
The fact that I'm being attacked here is bitterly ironic. I went into this game with an active interest in changing how I approach things to keep situations like this one from happening. Did that work? Nah. I got harassed by some thug bully from misetings over a bunch of meaningless posts that he took wildly out of proportion instead, and a million opportunistic scum ran with it. And I'm not kidding about that last part. I won't be surprised at all to find out that hawkeye, fade, xyre, vampyr, and sutherlands are all scum. Particularly ironic is fade, who has played vastly different than his normal self this game, constantly point out this same problem about me. Or Hawkeye, lurking heavily like he always does as scum. Nevermind how absurdly obviously scummy Xyre, Sutherlands, and Vampyr have been. Those three have done everything in their power to get noticed as scum and no one has looked twice. I won't even talk about LJustus and his obviously completely fabricated role, or atlseal and his super JoAT claim. Seriously. There are literally handfuls of people scummier than I am in this game, but of course I'm being lynched, over nothing. And is going to be better tomorrow? Of course not. People are just going to say 'oh, even though you were right about having 2 lives, now we've decided that you must 'switch' affiliations if you die'. It is awesome how you guys will take the most obvious town role and bend it to your advantage. The worst part is when people like CP, who most likely cannot be scum, do things like this. The mafia doesn't need to do anything to win when you do it all for them.
So here. Unvote, Vote Cyan. 1 vote away, lynch me now. And tomorrow, lynch me again. Please. The way that people are playing thus far this game, the town has no chance of winning in the first place. And in the future, I'll go back to playing how I know to play, and laugh in the face of anyone that condemns me for it. Because that manner of play *never* resulted in me being lynched as town. I thought that this game would be a good one to amend some of my previous ways, because I figured hey, if I get forced to claim, everyone will surely realize that my role is clearly a town one. What a joke. Maybe I'll get lucky and my lynch scene will make it clear that I don't actually die, and people will be forced to concoct some other ridiculous argument to convince the town to waste another lynch on me tomorrow. But I doubt it. Please, someone lynch me now and give the scum their easy victory so that this game will at least keep progressing.
Xyre... [has] done everything in [his] power to get noticed as scum and no one has looked twice.
Finally, someone pays attention. I have a rationale for all this, but for now, I think that revealing said rationale undermines the town as a whole.
As for "24 mafia" and whatnot, know that I'm intentionally playing rather randomly. Pod's persistence in going after me, however, strikes me as either very townie or strategic scum. At the moment, I don't know which.
Haven't reread everything yet, but a few notes:
@ DYH: My deepest sympathies for your grandmother and car.
@ LJustus: I still think that your ability is more game-breaking later in the game, and if you're right about having abilities that trigger when you're NKed, there's no reason to kill you right now, because the mafia probably won't run the risk.
I'm pleased that the town's come to its senses with Cyan. If he's telling the truth about his multiple-lives, then I'd think that the result most consistent with flavor is that he's anti-town now, but then becomes town after we kill him (which is more in line with the movies).
Yeah, but someone (Xyre, I think) brought it up earlier as a word for programs existing before Matrix 3.0 (Oracle, Merovingian, Architect) , and when I looked on wiki, I couldn't find any place where they were named as legacy, so I'm assuming it's a non-standard term for this group. It's a common phrase, but I don't think you would come up with a link like that by coincidence.
Not me.
@ Rafk: I would personally love to see a PBPA on me.
I have to actually agree with you here, Raf. I'm wary of people defending me for no strong reason.
This wasn't a defense of you but more of a critique of Raf and his line of accusations. Nor was it, as Raf suggests, an attempt to stir things up between you two. Just putting my opinion out there on what Raf was doing.
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PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
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Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
Anyhow, i'd missed Cyan's "I have multiple Lives" post before, whoops. Fos Cyan. Consider this a vote for now, but considering we don't have an agreement on what we want to do with atlseal, id like to settle that before we go to night.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Cyan ? If he doesn't die right now, he should indeed be investigated. It pretty much think it doesn't worth wasting the only vig shot atlseal has on him (if he actually told the truth) as it is a bit too early in the game and we may need it later.
Sorry for the lack of posting over the weekend, but my Internet connection at home has been down for the past week or so.
Unvote Cyan
One thing I didn't get around to asking previously - is there any downside to John Connor outing himself, thus letting us lynch elsewhere other than Cyan?
We most likely lose John to the Mafia tonight, but we get a townie with (allegedly) two lives.
One thing I didn't get around to asking previously - is there any downside to John Connor outing himself, thus letting us lynch elsewhere other than Cyan?
Well, that depends. Are you an evil killer robot sent by Skynet?
I disagree. While knowing his alignment for sure would be nice, we gain less than if we checked one of the other analysts who have not yet established a claim and have a smaller posting record, such as Raf or DYH. Right now, Cyan has the most posts in this thread. With a semi-verifiable claim and that amount of talking, we should hopefully not need to use an investigation to be able to reasonably determine his alignment.
Like Grak says, we need to start cutting down trees. And I feel that inspecting Cyan instead of someone else would be missing out on a chance to cut down one more tree.
Other fade posts on the same subject:
Quote from fadeblue »
Re: LJustus - Let's put this aside and come back to it later in the day. If I'm correct in my thinking about how his role would work, it's best to lynch him today. As for who should be inspected, I'm inclined to suggest Raf, DYH, or Axel.
Quote from fadeblue »
I'm arguing that:
1) If we believe Cyan is lynch-worthy, then we lynch him.
2) If we instead lynch LJustus, then we should not be investigating Cyan and instead inspect someone else, thereby increasing our coverage.
Right now, I believe Cyan's claim of T-800. Thus, I don't believe he is lynch-worthy.
But now fade says:
Quote from fadeblue »
That's some interesting selective reading, Raf. Maybe you didn't notice that I'm against lynching?
Yes, you're really obviously against lynching LJ
Obviously I disagree with fade over the interpretation of his post, but again I hardly expect to convince him to say "yeah, you're right, I did something scummy".
Quote from fadeblue »
Raf: Do you disagree that we should use the inspection on someone who we don't have a lot of information on already? Who would you say is a better target?
Your posturing here is quite suspicious.
See, this is a trap, because you've already made it clear that you will (correctly) call it scummy when people say they're happy to be investigated, but you're also trying to call me scummy because I attacked when you suggested an LJustus investigation (not just any investigation) on DYH or me.
To keep this straight:
I attacked two things about your post.
1) Suggesting that if LJ's ability gets used, it gets used on DYH or myself. I am not comfortable with lynching LJ anyway. And if it does get used, despite my own suspicions of DYH, I don't think he's a good target for it (and obviously I don't think myself is a good target). If we're losing a townie to gain an investigation, then it should be a surefire win. Exposing someone's role publically could backfire even if they're town. It really needs to be used on someone who would otherwise get lynched and die, either confirming a scum lynch or saving us from a mislynch. Using it on someone who's not about to get lynched, potentially exposing power roles or just gaining nothing? Bad. Very bad.
2) Suggesting DYH or myself because we're analysts with "smaller posting record" (yes, fade, you didn't actually use the word "lurking", but your implication is obvious). Neither of us is particularly low, and both of us much higher than fade himself, so I find that to be hypocritical.
John Connor outing himself doesn't prove anything at all, unless he somehow knows that the T800 is town, which is doubtful, unfortunately for me. Besides, I get the impression from my role PM that whatever Connor can do is powerful. Enough so that I'd rather he stay hidden.
John Connor, don't come forward, even to vindicate my claim. You're confirmed town in any situation, and you coming forward only puts you needlessly at risk. Well, I take that back. If your role PM confirms my existence/alignment, I would love for you to clear me here. But, as I said, I highly doubt this is the case. It's not worth putting yourself at risk under any other circumstances. No one denies that John Connor is in the game(well, not anymore, people have moved past that apparently easily discarded excuse and found a different one). Coming forward and saying 'yeah I'm Connor, no I can't confirm Cyan' will accomplish absolutely nothing for you, and just give you to the mafia as soon as I am completely dead.
Honestly, it makes me suspicious that Hvir would even suggest this, but I suppose that it's possible that he didn't read the part where I told Axel that Connor most likely doesn't have knowledge of my role.
A couple of other things I wanted to address as well:
@Hawkeye: Your point about it 'not making sense that I have two lives even though I have no body' is extremely lacking foresight. If anything, not having a human body and only being a created program would make it MORE likely that I would have multiple lives, not less so. Think about the 'programs' of the Matrix(agents, the Twins, etc) that have no body vs. those that do. No matter how powerful one of the physical characters is, they're nothing compared to the programs, with the exception of Neo obviously. So, thanks for giving me this chance to provide more credibility to my claim, even if, in reality, you were just scummily trying to use a nothing-but-flavor reason to attack me.
I also find posts like Loran's last one impressive. Stating that it's suddenly worth lynching me because I claimed multiple lives, without providing even the most remote attempt at an explanation is not helpful at all.
I think it's also worth mentioning that FB can't seem to be consistent in his attacks upon me. In one instance, he wants to lynch me because 'I'm playing differently than I normally do in this game'. In the next, he wants to lynch me because 'I'm acting so scummy, like I always do'. These statements seem mutually exclusive to me, but he has stated each thing twice. It's possible that I'm misunderstanding here, but, it seems suspect to me.
I think that it is fascinating that Xyre has apparently justified his uber-scummy behavior as 'having a rationale behind it'..of course he's not going to elaborate on that. His speculation that I'm 'probably anti-town now but become town when killed once' seems like a mafia essentially covering his bases for when I die twice and show up as town the second time. A role that switches from scum to town when killed makes no sense whatsoever. Obviously such a role couldn't be mafia, and as explained previously, my role being neutral doesn't make sense under any circumstances. This post seems like a huge scum slip, in my mind.
I've honestly never seen a wagon with so many scummy people on it. This doesn't even touch on Sutherlands, who is one of the scummiest people in this game. But I'll put up that PBPA tomorrow.
Not opposed to vigging ZDS down the line - don't we need to know who his mason partner is beforehand, though, since the point is to avoid their liability in the late game?
If we're going to follow through with the vig-a-mason plan to test the theory- then we should have the second mason revealed, IMO. However, it seems we have another claiming to be stricken with the lynch -2 disease, and someone who can clear that up, so things are a bit tricky.
Frankly, I'd prefer if we could go back in time and erase ZDS pointing out that he would die at lynch-2, but since that's not a possibility, we've got a quandry.
Thought: So, if ZDS comes forward and reveals his partner, does get vigged and turns up town, Grakthis could theoretically cure the partner's problem, right? That doesn't seem awful.
My thinking ZDS is town is irrelevant insofar that I have no evidence to back it- only everything that's been presented in-thread. If we're going to follow through with vigging a claimed mason, it at least stands to reason to be able to verify his partner when he's dead as town, or force his hand today if he's scum
Again (and we've been through this argument and don't need to repeat it), I feel DYH was trying to have it both ways- with saying he was against vigging ZDS while also making arguments on the basis it would happen (and not exactly discouraging it). DYH feels he made his position against vigging ZDS clear and was just making sure that we were prepared if it happened anyway. People can judge for themselves. At the time, Cyan and cp both stuck their oar in and declared what DYH did was perfectly fine.
I still don't see a problem with DYH posts there, just for the record. I see no benefit to the other mason revealing themselves as he suggested, though. It's not like someone is going to come along and false claim being a mason that dies at 2 votes less than normal, considering how easily testable this is.
I also find posts like Loran's last one impressive. Stating that it's suddenly worth lynching me because I claimed multiple lives, without providing even the most remote attempt at an explanation is not helpful at all.
Uh, im pretty sure it's been explained already by others, but ill explain it again...You claiming bodyguard? Believable claim. You claiming double-lived bodyguard? Not quite. Thus the "pseudo-vote".
I still disagree with ZDS, however....Id rather not waste a claimed bodyguard of a power role.... if he's actually town (not most likely imo, but still possible). Considering arim's a likely lynch tomorrow (which will confirm his investigation most likely), i dont think we have much to lose for his investigation.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
I fail to see why having an extra life makes the role so unbelievable. Nevermind that it makes it more confirmable, it is highly accurate in the context of flavor.
Also, how can Arim get lynched tomorrow when he is dead now?
I fail to see why having an extra life makes the role so unbelievable. Nevermind that it makes it more confirmable, it is highly accurate in the context of flavor.
Also, how can Arim get lynched tomorrow when he is dead now?
Obviously by "arim" i meant "atl". Nice being argumentative though.
Also, the flavor of being tough to kill does not equal surviving a lynch. It also makes it unbelievable since a bodyguard who automatically guards a power role, and prevents TWO consecutive kill attempts against him is pretty rediculous.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
I wasn't being argumentative, I didn't understand who you meant, considering that you said he is a 'likely lynch tomorrow', and I don't see how that tracks with atlseal.
And also, I really think you're overstating my role. I can protect one person an entire two times, at the cost of my own life. A doctor can protect any role in the game as many times they want, and can only be hindered by a RB. The role is cool and flavorful, but really isn't that amazing. If I could protect anyone, that would be one thing. But I can *only* protect John Connor.
Loran: After seeing your post, I went to check the wiki on the movies to validate my argument, only to realize that my knowledge of the series was choppier than I thought. Never mind.
John Connor outing himself doesn't prove anything at all, unless he somehow knows that the T800 is town, which is doubtful, unfortunately for me. Besides, I get the impression from my role PM that whatever Connor can do is powerful. Enough so that I'd rather he stay hidden.
And also, I really think you're overstating my role. I can protect one person an entire two times, at the cost of my own life. A doctor can protect any role in the game as many times they want, and can only be hindered by a RB. The role is cool and flavorful, but really isn't that amazing. If I could protect anyone, that would be one thing. But I can *only* protect John Connor.
YOU can protect a person, who your role PM implies is "POWERFUL", twice at the cost of your life. The weakness of the standard bodyguard role, is that you dont know who you're protecting. You're AUTOMATICALLY protecting a "powerful" player who you are pretty sure is town. In addition, you can survive 1 kill attempt (whether on you directly or at him through your bodyguarding), giving him even stronger protection. I'd say that's a bit rediculous.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
@Xyre: That post does absolutely nothing to actually address the points that Loran or myself made. Actually, it would seem that you ignored the more direct and pointed question(s) of my post entirely, instead focusing on the more generalized post of Loran's. And again, you still didn't answer the question anyway.
@Loran: The bodyguard roles that I've seen in the past were essentially 1 time Doctor roles(they sacrified themselves to stop a kill on a person of their choosing). It stands to reason that they're not going to step in front of a bullet, so to speak, to protect some weak role. And certainly, when they are assigned to specific roles, those roles are always powerful. I have 1 extra life, and that's it. You're severely making a mountain out of a molehill here, which seems more of a justification to simply advocate my losing one life(conveniently making it easier for the scum to get rid of me) than anything else.
I never realized you asked me a question. I was under the impression that you were still generally bashing on me.
@ Loran: I indirectly answered your question. Here's the direct answer: I didn't say mafia, I said anti-town. Of course a mafia-to-town conversion would break the game. I was thinking maybe SK? It was a guess based on faulty information. It's inconsequential now.
Cyan's role to me seems rather improbable. By his very existence, if he's telling the truth, then John Conner must be a powerful role. But Cyan is like a super-bodyguard, which to me seems improbable. Not only that, he knows who he's protecting, and based on the flavor, we can guess that his protections are important. Right now, the fact that he has multiple lives (according to him) means that lynching him isn't entirely risky to test his role (safer than, say, lynching LJustus), and he'll still be around to protect Conner (provided he's in the game).
The fact remains, of course, that Conner is a role that nobody would lynch, and it's not like we don't have a doctor or anything. Cyan, in my honest opinion, is too scummy to be given a reprieve just because of his creative role claim. There's no risk (unlike the LJustus plan) because he has 2 lives, and we'll know he's most likely confirmed once he's dead.
At least, that's the way I see it. But what do I know?
I never realized you asked me a question. I was under the impression that you were still generally bashing on me.
@ Loran: I indirectly answered your question. Here's the direct answer: I didn't say mafia, I said anti-town. Of course a mafia-to-town conversion would break the game. I was thinking maybe SK? It was a guess based on faulty information. It's inconsequential now.
Fair enough, i missed that thought. I'm actually in the process of balencing my own setup (for like in 6 months) and tried at one point to put in a role that switched from mafia to town. Couldn't find a way to balence it to my satisfaction.
@Loran: The bodyguard roles that I've seen in the past were essentially 1 time Doctor roles(they sacrified themselves to stop a kill on a person of their choosing). It stands to reason that they're not going to step in front of a bullet, so to speak, to protect some weak role. And certainly, when they are assigned to specific roles, those roles are always powerful. I have 1 extra life, and that's it. You're severely making a mountain out of a molehill here, which seems more of a justification to simply advocate my losing one life(conveniently making it easier for the scum to get rid of me) than anything else.
You're missing the point. Bodyguards I have seen in the past referred to one of two things:
Either They took the kill for the person they chose to guard (Night ability) or they would kill anyone who targetted the person they chose to guard (also night ability).
Neither of which is overpowered. You're claiming that you're the 1st type of these, but instead of an active ability like above, you have a passive ability that automatically targets a player you define as "powerful". Moreover, you claim to have more than one life, making it so that you can stop a kill on this person TWICE!
So in essence, that person has 3 lives, and has a powerful role? Sounds a bit rediculous to me.
Hell, to be fair, lets assume that the scum have a chance of targetting you with a nightkill, or you could be lynched. That STILL means that in order to kill this power role, you have to die (from either him dying or you dying) TWICE, before he is vulnerable.
That would make mr. conner, a rediculously powerful, in fact, broken role.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Maybe this will make a difference. Lynching me won't accomplish anything. I have multiple lives.
This is the last bit of my role info that I was trying to keep from the mafia, for wholly obvious reasons. But considering that I still somehow am facing the possibility of being lynched today, it seems better to reveal it now and let people factor it into their decisions than to get lynched and not die and have to explain it tomorrow.
This is also why I said that I want to be the lynch vote on LJustus. I strongly suspect some kind of gambit on his part, and if he's some kind of bomber, I will survive it.
And also, I really think you're overstating my role. I can protect one person an entire two times, at the cost of my own life. A doctor can protect any role in the game as many times they want, and can only be hindered by a RB. The role is cool and flavorful, but really isn't that amazing. If I could protect anyone, that would be one thing. But I can *only* protect John Connor.
No way this argument works. Come on, Cyan. Basically, you're claiming to be able to unconditionally stop a mafia kill from happening with no loss of any kind to the town. That kind of role is frankly unbelievable. It's like saying that you're a doc who doesn't have to target the right person in order to be successful.
Additionally, if John Connor is a power role, then aren't the mafia kinda screwed? What kind of power role can be guaranteed to stay alive for multiple days on end, even after the role has been outed, and not be busted all to pieces? Seriously, can you think of one?
BTW, loran, do me a favor. Stop using the word 'ridiculous' until you learn to spell it. Sorry; pet peeve of mine.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
- kill attempts made on John Connor are redirected to him
- John Connor is a townie
- Cyan has multiple lives
Quote from Cyan »
John Connor, don't come forward, even to vindicate my claim. You're confirmed town in any situation, and you coming forward only puts you needlessly at risk.
If this is the case, then why are you so opposed to John Connor coming out? And why this comment:
Quote from Cyan »
Honestly, it makes me suspicious that Hvir would even suggest this, but I suppose that it's possible that he didn't read the part where I told Axel that Connor most likely doesn't have knowledge of my role.
I STILL don't see the drawback behind John Connor coming out. If he comes out, we verify 2 townies and Cyan isn't lynched, preserving his extra life. Any attempts the Mafia make on him are automatically redirected to Cyan anyway, so that's 1 less Nightkill they have at their disposal if they choose to go after our 2 (in this scenario) confirmed townies. Had Cyan's role function like a limited doctor, I might have been more hesitant to suggest this course of action, since a Mafia roleblocker could disrupt this, but since this is a passive ability, it's not an issue.
In short - what is the risk to John Connor coming out? Also, could someone please point out to me the point in the game where the town apparently decided that John Connor was actually in the game?
@Hvir: Did you actually read what I posted previously? Let me put it more plainly. John Connor coming out does not confirm me at all. Why? Because people will simply say 'derrrrrr you're just scum that knew of his existence because you need to kill him'. Nevermind how much it doesn't make sense, people have ALREADY tried using that argument. Connor coming out puts him needlessly at risk, and the town benefits none. Connor is *already* confirmed town, and will be that much moreso if I get killed. Your proposition benefits the mafia greatly, and the town NONE WHATSOEVER. Congratulations on making the fact that you're scum so retardedly obvious. Additionally, DYH has also claimed to be from the Terminator mythos, which is why it was decided that JC is in the game. The chances of me just making all of that up out of nowhere are so remote as to be impossible.
I honestly don't care if you guys believe me. I am 1 vote from lynch, which makes me one vote from proving myself right, and everyone who is naysaying me wrong. And that is just fine. Hopefully making such a retardedly bad play this early in the game will knock some sense into the town and force them to shape up. I can only imagine how gleefully the scum must be watching this all unfold(particularly since, even if they're not all scum, 1/2 of the people on my wagon are acting as scummy as possible).
I would also like to point out that, at this point, all of your 'arguments', if they can be called that, have degraded to gaming the mod. We spent all of DotA Mafia joking about how overpowered the town was, in the end..the town lost. If my role is powerful, assume that the scum are powerful. Especially when it's a game made by Azrael, easily one of the best game designers there is.
Honestly, I am resigned to the fate of being lynched today. Clearly, no one cares that, if I were lying, it would absolutely become obvious at some point in the game. Oh well. If I wasn't already voting myself, I would do so now, just to end the fiasco that is this day. I sincerely hope that you guys listen to me better tomorrow.
@Hvir: Did you actually read what I posted previously? Let me put it more plainly. John Connor coming out does not confirm me at all. Why? Because people will simply say 'derrrrrr you're just scum that knew of his existence because you need to kill him'.
So that would make you a Mafia member with an independent win condition? And then the game would be over, just like that? I find that hard to swallow.
Even if you were an SK, I'd find it hard to believe that your win condition was as simple as 'Kill this one other player in the game'. One lucky shot from you on Night 1 would be enough to end the whole thing.
Never mind how much it doesn't make sense, people have ALREADY tried using that argument. Connor coming out puts him needlessly at risk, and the town benefits none. Connor is *already* confirmed town, and will be that much moreso if I get killed. Your proposition benefits the mafia greatly, and the town NONE WHATSOEVER.
Again, how does that benefit the Mafia? They know that a particular player is town? One would have thought that they would be able to figure it out for themselves. Even if they DO want to kill John Connor and he reveals himself, the Mafia have to shoot him THREE times to kill him, assuming you're telling the truth.
I agree that the theory that I could be anything but town if John Connor is confirmed as being in this game is ridiculous. But read the thread, it's a popular notion for some unknown/dumb reason.
The mafia would obviously benefit from knowing his role. Would they have to fire some NKs at me to get to him? Sure. But they would be able to get to him, which is what matters. If he stays hidden, they're firing blind to find him, and even if I get lynched today, the mafia will still have to use at least one NK on me to ever get to Connor. I am fine with trading 1 of my lives for Connor remaining hidden. I wish that 'trading one of my lives' involved me being vigged, so that we wouldn't go to night, but unfortunately everyone is set on lynching me.
Actually, I wish that people would simply realize that I have to be telling the truth about my role, because if I weren't, inevitably, I would get caught and lynched. But this has been brought up multiple times, by multiple players, even Axelrod, and has been summarily ignored. So..yeah. Not much I can do there.
@ZDS, I'm not sure what you want to hear from me. Are you expecting me to say ahead of time what I'm going to be doing tonight? That wouldn't be very prudent, now would it? I figured the best way to do this is do what I think will help town the most tonight and tell everyone what I did tomorrow.
If you want my opinion on Cyan's wagon: I've said it repeatedly before this, but I don't agree with it.
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If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
I've designed two different roles in two different games I've modded where a town role became scum of some sort upon being lynched. I've seen it a few other times as well. As such, this isn't the most thrilling argument to me, although I'll agree that you'd be right most of the time.
RooTK Mafia much? I think you underestimate exactly how much the impression of your playstyle is embedded in your play from that game.
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Also, if LJustus is the target this early for whatever inane reason, he should target someone who actually contributes, or else someone who is actually suspicious. Targeting a lurker like Hvir isn't going to help us much because it isn't very likely that he'll be coming under fire any time soon, nor that we'll be in a situation where we have to choose whether or not to trust him. I vote Grak.
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Your wording was ambiguous and I assumed you meant something different.
When you said
I assumed you meant you weren't buying the votes on Cyan, not that you weren't buying the case I made.
but you thought that his reaction to being investigated was enough for a vote and lynch?!?! ALONE?!?
While I clearly misunderstood you the first time, now that I do understand you, I don't thinkt hat makes you look any better.
Wow... that blows my mind. I'd be pretty upset with a mod who included such a role. It's completely unfair to the town, unless you follow my "a reasonable person could figure it out" rule. And even in that case, it's completely unfair because it forces the town to use TWO lynches on one player. Even if that player is town the first time, the town doesnt' know that. And if he plays scummy and gets lynched, the entire town gets punished for it.
That is TERRIBLE game design.
Barring special circumstances and the "reasonable person" rule, I'd never support such a role.
Axelrod, what's your take? I trust your judgement as a mod on stuff like that. I mean, really, this is not THAT relevant to the game... because if the role has been done before, we have to consider it. But I am curious how you feel about something like that.
You don't like me because I'm in your face right now. I'm surprisingly easy to get along with when you're not trying to kill me in my sleep.
I don't think that's sound logic. Supercop is just a cop who gets the whole package. he doesn't JUST get rolenames. And you've just claimed your role might at some points possibly reveal a rolename.
Do you think that it's imporbable that Azrael, as a mod, would include weaker versions of roles
Have you any knowledge of the person involved? We're talking about a player who prides himself on never panicking. His reaction in that instance was WRONG.
I'd be happy to discuss this in a more relevant place, but I would not generally say that a role with different alignment during different 'lives' is any more inherently unbalancing than a role with the same alignment during different 'lives.' It's the multiple lives thing that tends to unbalance things, not a change of alignments, IMO.
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Meaning if we are talking about the disparity of power in a game, then a vanilla gets the shortest end of the stick or no stick at all.
If we lynch LJ and I have to choose, then I would choose either Xyre or Hvir (if Cyan is not an option).
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
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Seriously guys. . . I'm handing the rest of the town a useful Day 1 lynch.
Anyhow, just caught up....here are my thoughts.
alx wtf were you doing by claiming that? Seriously, what was the harm of letting atl last till tomorrow?
Speakign of atl, if we lynch LJ, i still support (as before) investigating atl. It settles all the questions, and would let us know whether or not to trust a claimed town power role.
@Grathkis and CP via the alignment switching role...there's nothing wrong with that. I've seen a double life mafia in star trek, which was not a problem, and an alignment switcher (and he came up town at first) in douglas adams. I see no problem with the role, though to be fair in both instances, there were clues in the rolenames that might lead to the town suspecting them of being scum.
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Firstly, I was recently promoted into a new work position and my new boss apparently thinks I'm Superman. My workload has easily quadrupled from prior months. Secondly, my grandma passed away on Wednesday, and her services were Friday, which is why I wasn't around much that day. Today, I went to help my family clean out her house, and 5 minutes after I got there, the guy next door backed his jeep into my poor little Honda Civic. Once that was reported, I then spent the rest of today cleaning.
I don't need to be replaced or anything, as I'll try to catch up as much as I can tomorrow. My posting during the week will probably suffer a bit from the work and car repair pieces until those get sorted out. Thanks for your patience and understanding.
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My deepest sympathies to you and your family.
Take care.
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8 Cyan-Grakthis, Xyre, Hvir, Hawkeye, J-Effe IV, Carrion Pigeons, Abbeygargoyle, Sutherlands
2 Hvirfilvindr- Axelrod, Fadeblue
7 LJustus- Atlseal, ZDS, Dagger, Spoon, Vampyr, Alx2, LJustus
1 Loran16- Athos
1 xyre- Pod
4 Not Voting- Rafaelk, Loran16, DYH, Cyan,
23 alive, 12 to lynch.
Eye on you for that, since it seems to be an attempt to stir up me vs fade or something. I didn't like a post of fade's, as I don't like this one of yours.
I love that analogy.
That's what fade was doing- same type of denial, saying "I'm against lynching LJ! But if we lynch him, let's do this!". And regardless of the fact that of course he wouldn't mention himself, it remains hypocritical for fade to accuse DYH and I of somehow lurking when both of us have match higher postcounts than fade himself.
It's also an excellent explanation of my issue with DYH from earlier, where DYH opposed something but then argued for a policy "if it happens". It's trying to have it both ways, able to say "I was against this!" but also add to the momentum for it. And as such, it is something against both of them. Certainly not higher on the scum charts than others, but it is something to remember for the future, and a reason to keep an eye on them in case either continues to try to have it both ways.
vote Cyan. This seems like a last ditch effort to stay alive.
Ironically for you, if this does turn out to be true, it makes me suspicious that John Connor and yourself are neutrals. Multiple lives, effectively protecting two townies, is extremely strong.
With all respect to Trek mafia and the sort of Judus/Saulus roles cp has suggested, I have a higher opinion of Azrael as a mod than to play on the basis that he would inflict something like that on us (same as I refuse to play around a Jester role). Mafia that survive lynch with no clue to the town = silly. Mafia with incentive to get lynched so they can win with the town, or townies with incentive to get lynched so they can win with the scum = silly.
Spoon's rebuttal is succinct. Some roles are stronger than others. And besides, atlseal's claim is one-shot abilities, not an ability he can use every night. Your logic, alx, is terrible.
I don't really get where you're going with saying we 'must' be neutral. Being able to protect someone twice instead of once(or to be targetted once and still be able to protect once) isn't that amazing, and it makes complete sense in regards to the resilience of the T800, and to how dedicated he is to protecting John Connor. It also makes no sense that Connor would be neutral, but I"m not that worried about it, that will work itself out should I ever die entirely. Your skepticism is noted and understood, but ultimately irrelevant.
Ok. No, I don't have knowledge of the person. So that makes more sense now.
Yeah... isn't there a thread for discussions like this? I might make a post there so we don't clog up this thread. I think from a BALANCE point of view, you're right, it can be balanced. But I think from a GOOD game design point of view, it's a terrible role.
I would agree with this. On both points.
Anytime someone says "I want X... but Y has it's advantages.... vote X" they are guilty of it. A lot of the time, what they are hoping is that some townie will come in and go "I agree with those advantages! vote Y!" that way the townie is seen as the first one to support the bandwagon and the scum can jump on it later.
It's kinda like sticking your toe in the water, telling everyone "Man, the water feels good... don't you guys agree?" and then waiting for someone else to jump in and make sure there are no sharks or rocks there.
PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
Matrix Mafia Town MVP
Medieval Mafia Mafia MVP
Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
Do you expect us to drink this Kool-Ade?
Not a chance, unless it’s Matrix Kool-Ade! Made with only 100% Natural ingredients, No Artificial Colors or Preservatives and available in 15 different Flavors!
Alrighty then. Let me get this straight.
So you are a T-800, Model 101 Terminator robor - but you have no body.
I wonder how that would register if someone investigated you. Interested, you campaigned to lynch Ljustus and have him use his investigation on you.
You are a body guard for John Conner. Interesting. The T-800’s were largely responsible for nearly wiping out the human race, that is except for one the had been captured and reprogrammed.
Now well after your intial role claim you are trying to convince us that not only are you the T-800 robot that has no body and is a bady guard for John copnner, BUT now you also have multiple live! Not only that but that you suspect that Ljustus was lying and is a bomber and this is the reason you campaigned to be Ljustus’ investigation target not to prove your role like you said earlier. Not only that but you will nobly sacrifice one of your lives to prove this if we lynch Ljustus.
Wow, a Bodyguard with multiple lives!
Man, that’s the role of a lifetime.
Is there anything else you’d like to add to your role or change about it?
Yep, I’m not drinking that Kool-Ade.
Next time try Matrix Kool-Ade. It’s the BEST!
My vote is staying right where it is. On Cyan.
Calvin & Hobbs Mafia, Mafia MVP
X-Men Mafia Town MVP
Simpson's Mafia - best use of character
Mtgnews Mafia Mafia - Town Madman
Mythos Mafia: the Dunwich Massacre Town MVP
English Literature Mafia Town MVP
Best Role-Playing Sin City Mafia
Werewolf Mafia - Mafia MVP
Doctor Mafia - Mafia MVP
Mafia: Escape from the Cylons - Town MVP
Lost Mafia - Co SK Winner with Kops
Random Mafia 3 - Town MVP
Cyan: From a flavor perspective, I can hardly think of anyone more suited to a role switching sides upon death than the T-800. That doesn't necessarily mean that I think it's true, though, because it's a flavor argument. Flavor is worthless as an argument for alignment. Also, you're basically announcing that John Connor has three lives now; you don't think that's amazing? Even if he is otherwise vanilla, that's pretty darn awesome. I have trouble imagining the kind of role required of the mafia to balance something like that.
Mafia MVP BM Mafia
Mafia MVP Matrix Mafia
I have to actually agree with you here, Raf. I'm wary of people defending me for no strong reason.
This, however, is again distortion.
1) I have already said that I am willing to lynch LJustus if we do not have a better choice. Thus, I preferred pursuing Cyan, and then I tried to focus on Hvir (who is still missing).
2) I never accused you and DYH of "lurking"; please point out where I said that. It is quite clear that I was saying I would prefer to inspect you or DYH over Cyan, because you both have lower post counts than him and are still unclaimed (unlike Cyan). The point is that we should be trying to maximize our investigation, not waste it on someone who we already have a claim from and has tons of posts to analyze. The reason I singled you and DYH out is because you are two of the most dangerous players to leave alive with an unknown alignment (I also pointed out Axelrod, but he happened to have more posts than both of you).
3) Whether you have more posts than me is irrelevant; I was already removing myself from the equation. If you would rather have me inspected, go ahead.
Raf: Do you disagree that we should use the inspection on someone who we don't have a lot of information on already? Who would you say is a better target?
Your posturing here is quite suspicious.
The fact that I'm being attacked here is bitterly ironic. I went into this game with an active interest in changing how I approach things to keep situations like this one from happening. Did that work? Nah. I got harassed by some thug bully from misetings over a bunch of meaningless posts that he took wildly out of proportion instead, and a million opportunistic scum ran with it. And I'm not kidding about that last part. I won't be surprised at all to find out that hawkeye, fade, xyre, vampyr, and sutherlands are all scum. Particularly ironic is fade, who has played vastly different than his normal self this game, constantly point out this same problem about me. Or Hawkeye, lurking heavily like he always does as scum. Nevermind how absurdly obviously scummy Xyre, Sutherlands, and Vampyr have been. Those three have done everything in their power to get noticed as scum and no one has looked twice. I won't even talk about LJustus and his obviously completely fabricated role, or atlseal and his super JoAT claim. Seriously. There are literally handfuls of people scummier than I am in this game, but of course I'm being lynched, over nothing. And is going to be better tomorrow? Of course not. People are just going to say 'oh, even though you were right about having 2 lives, now we've decided that you must 'switch' affiliations if you die'. It is awesome how you guys will take the most obvious town role and bend it to your advantage. The worst part is when people like CP, who most likely cannot be scum, do things like this. The mafia doesn't need to do anything to win when you do it all for them.
So here. Unvote, Vote Cyan. 1 vote away, lynch me now. And tomorrow, lynch me again. Please. The way that people are playing thus far this game, the town has no chance of winning in the first place. And in the future, I'll go back to playing how I know to play, and laugh in the face of anyone that condemns me for it. Because that manner of play *never* resulted in me being lynched as town. I thought that this game would be a good one to amend some of my previous ways, because I figured hey, if I get forced to claim, everyone will surely realize that my role is clearly a town one. What a joke. Maybe I'll get lucky and my lynch scene will make it clear that I don't actually die, and people will be forced to concoct some other ridiculous argument to convince the town to waste another lynch on me tomorrow. But I doubt it. Please, someone lynch me now and give the scum their easy victory so that this game will at least keep progressing.
Finally, someone pays attention. I have a rationale for all this, but for now, I think that revealing said rationale undermines the town as a whole.
As for "24 mafia" and whatnot, know that I'm intentionally playing rather randomly. Pod's persistence in going after me, however, strikes me as either very townie or strategic scum. At the moment, I don't know which.
Haven't reread everything yet, but a few notes:
@ DYH: My deepest sympathies for your grandmother and car.
@ LJustus: I still think that your ability is more game-breaking later in the game, and if you're right about having abilities that trigger when you're NKed, there's no reason to kill you right now, because the mafia probably won't run the risk.
I'm pleased that the town's come to its senses with Cyan. If he's telling the truth about his multiple-lives, then I'd think that the result most consistent with flavor is that he's anti-town now, but then becomes town after we kill him (which is more in line with the movies).
Not me.
@ Rafk: I would personally love to see a PBPA on me.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
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Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
This wasn't a defense of you but more of a critique of Raf and his line of accusations. Nor was it, as Raf suggests, an attempt to stir things up between you two. Just putting my opinion out there on what Raf was doing.
PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
Matrix Mafia Town MVP
Medieval Mafia Mafia MVP
Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
I'd prefer an investigation on him, myself....
Anyhow, i'd missed Cyan's "I have multiple Lives" post before, whoops. Fos Cyan. Consider this a vote for now, but considering we don't have an agreement on what we want to do with atlseal, id like to settle that before we go to night.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Unvote Cyan
One thing I didn't get around to asking previously - is there any downside to John Connor outing himself, thus letting us lynch elsewhere other than Cyan?
We most likely lose John to the Mafia tonight, but we get a townie with (allegedly) two lives.
Well, that depends. Are you an evil killer robot sent by Skynet?
fade: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2102707&postcount=1092
In response to ZDS saying Cyan is the prime investigation choice for LJ:
Other fade posts on the same subject:
But now fade says:
Yes, you're really obviously against lynching LJ
Obviously I disagree with fade over the interpretation of his post, but again I hardly expect to convince him to say "yeah, you're right, I did something scummy".
See, this is a trap, because you've already made it clear that you will (correctly) call it scummy when people say they're happy to be investigated, but you're also trying to call me scummy because I attacked when you suggested an LJustus investigation (not just any investigation) on DYH or me.
To keep this straight:
I attacked two things about your post.
1) Suggesting that if LJ's ability gets used, it gets used on DYH or myself. I am not comfortable with lynching LJ anyway. And if it does get used, despite my own suspicions of DYH, I don't think he's a good target for it (and obviously I don't think myself is a good target). If we're losing a townie to gain an investigation, then it should be a surefire win. Exposing someone's role publically could backfire even if they're town. It really needs to be used on someone who would otherwise get lynched and die, either confirming a scum lynch or saving us from a mislynch. Using it on someone who's not about to get lynched, potentially exposing power roles or just gaining nothing? Bad. Very bad.
2) Suggesting DYH or myself because we're analysts with "smaller posting record" (yes, fade, you didn't actually use the word "lurking", but your implication is obvious). Neither of us is particularly low, and both of us much higher than fade himself, so I find that to be hypocritical.
John Connor outing himself doesn't prove anything at all, unless he somehow knows that the T800 is town, which is doubtful, unfortunately for me. Besides, I get the impression from my role PM that whatever Connor can do is powerful. Enough so that I'd rather he stay hidden.
John Connor, don't come forward, even to vindicate my claim. You're confirmed town in any situation, and you coming forward only puts you needlessly at risk. Well, I take that back. If your role PM confirms my existence/alignment, I would love for you to clear me here. But, as I said, I highly doubt this is the case. It's not worth putting yourself at risk under any other circumstances. No one denies that John Connor is in the game(well, not anymore, people have moved past that apparently easily discarded excuse and found a different one). Coming forward and saying 'yeah I'm Connor, no I can't confirm Cyan' will accomplish absolutely nothing for you, and just give you to the mafia as soon as I am completely dead.
Honestly, it makes me suspicious that Hvir would even suggest this, but I suppose that it's possible that he didn't read the part where I told Axel that Connor most likely doesn't have knowledge of my role.
A couple of other things I wanted to address as well:
@Hawkeye: Your point about it 'not making sense that I have two lives even though I have no body' is extremely lacking foresight. If anything, not having a human body and only being a created program would make it MORE likely that I would have multiple lives, not less so. Think about the 'programs' of the Matrix(agents, the Twins, etc) that have no body vs. those that do. No matter how powerful one of the physical characters is, they're nothing compared to the programs, with the exception of Neo obviously. So, thanks for giving me this chance to provide more credibility to my claim, even if, in reality, you were just scummily trying to use a nothing-but-flavor reason to attack me.
I also find posts like Loran's last one impressive. Stating that it's suddenly worth lynching me because I claimed multiple lives, without providing even the most remote attempt at an explanation is not helpful at all.
I think it's also worth mentioning that FB can't seem to be consistent in his attacks upon me. In one instance, he wants to lynch me because 'I'm playing differently than I normally do in this game'. In the next, he wants to lynch me because 'I'm acting so scummy, like I always do'. These statements seem mutually exclusive to me, but he has stated each thing twice. It's possible that I'm misunderstanding here, but, it seems suspect to me.
I think that it is fascinating that Xyre has apparently justified his uber-scummy behavior as 'having a rationale behind it'..of course he's not going to elaborate on that. His speculation that I'm 'probably anti-town now but become town when killed once' seems like a mafia essentially covering his bases for when I die twice and show up as town the second time. A role that switches from scum to town when killed makes no sense whatsoever. Obviously such a role couldn't be mafia, and as explained previously, my role being neutral doesn't make sense under any circumstances. This post seems like a huge scum slip, in my mind.
I've honestly never seen a wagon with so many scummy people on it. This doesn't even touch on Sutherlands, who is one of the scummiest people in this game. But I'll put up that PBPA tomorrow.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2085748&postcount=476
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2087062&postcount=526
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2087078&postcount=527
Again (and we've been through this argument and don't need to repeat it), I feel DYH was trying to have it both ways- with saying he was against vigging ZDS while also making arguments on the basis it would happen (and not exactly discouraging it). DYH feels he made his position against vigging ZDS clear and was just making sure that we were prepared if it happened anyway. People can judge for themselves. At the time, Cyan and cp both stuck their oar in and declared what DYH did was perfectly fine.
Uh, im pretty sure it's been explained already by others, but ill explain it again...You claiming bodyguard? Believable claim. You claiming double-lived bodyguard? Not quite. Thus the "pseudo-vote".
I still disagree with ZDS, however....Id rather not waste a claimed bodyguard of a power role.... if he's actually town (not most likely imo, but still possible). Considering arim's a likely lynch tomorrow (which will confirm his investigation most likely), i dont think we have much to lose for his investigation.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Also, how can Arim get lynched tomorrow when he is dead now?
Obviously by "arim" i meant "atl". Nice being argumentative though.
Also, the flavor of being tough to kill does not equal surviving a lynch. It also makes it unbelievable since a bodyguard who automatically guards a power role, and prevents TWO consecutive kill attempts against him is pretty rediculous.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
And also, I really think you're overstating my role. I can protect one person an entire two times, at the cost of my own life. A doctor can protect any role in the game as many times they want, and can only be hindered by a RB. The role is cool and flavorful, but really isn't that amazing. If I could protect anyone, that would be one thing. But I can *only* protect John Connor.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
YOU can protect a person, who your role PM implies is "POWERFUL", twice at the cost of your life. The weakness of the standard bodyguard role, is that you dont know who you're protecting. You're AUTOMATICALLY protecting a "powerful" player who you are pretty sure is town. In addition, you can survive 1 kill attempt (whether on you directly or at him through your bodyguarding), giving him even stronger protection. I'd say that's a bit rediculous.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
@Loran: The bodyguard roles that I've seen in the past were essentially 1 time Doctor roles(they sacrified themselves to stop a kill on a person of their choosing). It stands to reason that they're not going to step in front of a bullet, so to speak, to protect some weak role. And certainly, when they are assigned to specific roles, those roles are always powerful. I have 1 extra life, and that's it. You're severely making a mountain out of a molehill here, which seems more of a justification to simply advocate my losing one life(conveniently making it easier for the scum to get rid of me) than anything else.
@ Loran: I indirectly answered your question. Here's the direct answer: I didn't say mafia, I said anti-town. Of course a mafia-to-town conversion would break the game. I was thinking maybe SK? It was a guess based on faulty information. It's inconsequential now.
Cyan's role to me seems rather improbable. By his very existence, if he's telling the truth, then John Conner must be a powerful role. But Cyan is like a super-bodyguard, which to me seems improbable. Not only that, he knows who he's protecting, and based on the flavor, we can guess that his protections are important. Right now, the fact that he has multiple lives (according to him) means that lynching him isn't entirely risky to test his role (safer than, say, lynching LJustus), and he'll still be around to protect Conner (provided he's in the game).
The fact remains, of course, that Conner is a role that nobody would lynch, and it's not like we don't have a doctor or anything. Cyan, in my honest opinion, is too scummy to be given a reprieve just because of his creative role claim. There's no risk (unlike the LJustus plan) because he has 2 lives, and we'll know he's most likely confirmed once he's dead.
At least, that's the way I see it. But what do I know?
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Fair enough, i missed that thought. I'm actually in the process of balencing my own setup (for like in 6 months) and tried at one point to put in a role that switched from mafia to town. Couldn't find a way to balence it to my satisfaction.
You're missing the point. Bodyguards I have seen in the past referred to one of two things:
Either They took the kill for the person they chose to guard (Night ability) or they would kill anyone who targetted the person they chose to guard (also night ability).
Neither of which is overpowered. You're claiming that you're the 1st type of these, but instead of an active ability like above, you have a passive ability that automatically targets a player you define as "powerful". Moreover, you claim to have more than one life, making it so that you can stop a kill on this person TWICE!
So in essence, that person has 3 lives, and has a powerful role? Sounds a bit rediculous to me.
Hell, to be fair, lets assume that the scum have a chance of targetting you with a nightkill, or you could be lynched. That STILL means that in order to kill this power role, you have to die (from either him dying or you dying) TWICE, before he is vulnerable.
That would make mr. conner, a rediculously powerful, in fact, broken role.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
I seriously doubt you have multiple lives.
No way this argument works. Come on, Cyan. Basically, you're claiming to be able to unconditionally stop a mafia kill from happening with no loss of any kind to the town. That kind of role is frankly unbelievable. It's like saying that you're a doc who doesn't have to target the right person in order to be successful.
Additionally, if John Connor is a power role, then aren't the mafia kinda screwed? What kind of power role can be guaranteed to stay alive for multiple days on end, even after the role has been outed, and not be busted all to pieces? Seriously, can you think of one?
BTW, loran, do me a favor. Stop using the word 'ridiculous' until you learn to spell it. Sorry; pet peeve of mine.
Mafia MVP BM Mafia
Mafia MVP Matrix Mafia
However, however he spells ridiculous, he's right- it's the same reason I already gave.
- kill attempts made on John Connor are redirected to him
- John Connor is a townie
- Cyan has multiple lives
If this is the case, then why are you so opposed to John Connor coming out? And why this comment:
I STILL don't see the drawback behind John Connor coming out. If he comes out, we verify 2 townies and Cyan isn't lynched, preserving his extra life. Any attempts the Mafia make on him are automatically redirected to Cyan anyway, so that's 1 less Nightkill they have at their disposal if they choose to go after our 2 (in this scenario) confirmed townies. Had Cyan's role function like a limited doctor, I might have been more hesitant to suggest this course of action, since a Mafia roleblocker could disrupt this, but since this is a passive ability, it's not an issue.
In short - what is the risk to John Connor coming out? Also, could someone please point out to me the point in the game where the town apparently decided that John Connor was actually in the game?
Vote Cyan
I honestly don't care if you guys believe me. I am 1 vote from lynch, which makes me one vote from proving myself right, and everyone who is naysaying me wrong. And that is just fine. Hopefully making such a retardedly bad play this early in the game will knock some sense into the town and force them to shape up. I can only imagine how gleefully the scum must be watching this all unfold(particularly since, even if they're not all scum, 1/2 of the people on my wagon are acting as scummy as possible).
I would also like to point out that, at this point, all of your 'arguments', if they can be called that, have degraded to gaming the mod. We spent all of DotA Mafia joking about how overpowered the town was, in the end..the town lost. If my role is powerful, assume that the scum are powerful. Especially when it's a game made by Azrael, easily one of the best game designers there is.
Honestly, I am resigned to the fate of being lynched today. Clearly, no one cares that, if I were lying, it would absolutely become obvious at some point in the game. Oh well. If I wasn't already voting myself, I would do so now, just to end the fiasco that is this day. I sincerely hope that you guys listen to me better tomorrow.
So that would make you a Mafia member with an independent win condition? And then the game would be over, just like that? I find that hard to swallow.
Even if you were an SK, I'd find it hard to believe that your win condition was as simple as 'Kill this one other player in the game'. One lucky shot from you on Night 1 would be enough to end the whole thing.
Again, how does that benefit the Mafia? They know that a particular player is town? One would have thought that they would be able to figure it out for themselves. Even if they DO want to kill John Connor and he reveals himself, the Mafia have to shoot him THREE times to kill him, assuming you're telling the truth.
The mafia would obviously benefit from knowing his role. Would they have to fire some NKs at me to get to him? Sure. But they would be able to get to him, which is what matters. If he stays hidden, they're firing blind to find him, and even if I get lynched today, the mafia will still have to use at least one NK on me to ever get to Connor. I am fine with trading 1 of my lives for Connor remaining hidden. I wish that 'trading one of my lives' involved me being vigged, so that we wouldn't go to night, but unfortunately everyone is set on lynching me.
Actually, I wish that people would simply realize that I have to be telling the truth about my role, because if I weren't, inevitably, I would get caught and lynched. But this has been brought up multiple times, by multiple players, even Axelrod, and has been summarily ignored. So..yeah. Not much I can do there.
If you want my opinion on Cyan's wagon: I've said it repeatedly before this, but I don't agree with it.