MTG Salvation

SIDENOTE: To anyone who hasnt seen The Matrix Reloaded, its now being shown on tnt here in the USA.

Just thought id tell yall.

Quote from J-Effe IV

Yes, all discussion benefits the town. But mafia will use this to their advantage by fooling us and leading us on the wrong track. The more we talk, the more they're likely to talk. A scum always end doing the smallest mistake that will reveal him as mafia. However, through 1000+ posts, it is more unlikely that we'll spot those mistakes. Just wanted to point this out.

This is more or less wrong. More things said by scum = more chances for them to screw up. If they mislead us more and more, then we'll be able to see that as they post more and more.

Discussion = good. Period.

Quote from Dagger

By two confirmed roles, I meant Cyan himself and John Connor. If Cyan is townie, then conceivably he is speaking the truth about his bodyguard duty. Why would a town be given the duty to protect a scum?

My role in Sin City was the best friend of armlx's role and masons with him (in addition to our other abilities). He was town, I was scum. Ask not why the Azrael does what he does, just accept that this is a particularly poor game to rely on flavour arguments.

FWIW, if Cyan is town I would agree it is more LIKELY that he is bodyguard for another townie, but it is not CERTAIN.

LJ also claimed that he truly believed lynching him is the best course of action to be taken.

I know. He might be wrong, though.

Need to read through the rest of the posts made in the last 24 hours and work out what I want to do from there. This is getting very, very complicated.

Quote from LJustus

The reason I believe that the best course of action is to lynch me today is to confirm one of the best analysts we have in the game. I'm willing to admit that both Cyan and Grakthis are excellent players. Both run circles around me in ferreting out the scums. One of these players - if confirmed - would be a great asset to the town.

Word.

Now you're just being sarcastic.

Also, I see that Cyan has confirmed that John Connor is 100% town (if, of course, Cyan himself is). There's potential holes in that since he says it's based on flavour, but fine. If Cyan is town, I'll accept JC as town without really strong evidence otherwise.

Having now watched Doctor Who and read the last couple of pages of the thread properly, I have concluded that investigating Cyan is probably a waste of time since he's pinned himself to the mast in other ways and be verified through them. It's way, way too early to be getting concerned about Cyan as a neutral hitman with a list of people to kill, or anything of that nature.

I need to bite the bullet in putting together a PBPA of Xyre, I think.

Quote from fadeblue

I disagree. While knowing his alignment for sure would be nice, we gain less than if we checked one of the other analysts who have not yet established a claim and have a smaller posting record, such as Raf or DYH.

Excuse me?

Not including this post:

DYH: 55 posts
RafK: 53 posts

fadeblue: 37 posts

It's nice and innocuous to talk of "checking", but of course "checking" with LJ requires lynching him. Not just killing him, either- using the town lynch on him and going to night. That's a big advantage to give to the scum: if we do so, then it should be on someone suspicious so we either catch a scum OR avoid the mislynch of a suspicious townie. Not just "checking" an analyst, of whom in any case there's a ton in this game.

Also, that prod about me and DYH having a "smaller posting history"- when you yourself have a smaller one- and noting we have not claimed, as if we should have done so for some reason... I don't like that at all. That's exactly your brand of subtle insinuation as scum.

Two for one PBPA day coming up. Not just Xyre, but fadeblue as well.

Quote from Axelrod

I don't think you even understood what I said.

You started with the premise that he would need to kill John Conner to be scum. I am pointing out to you that you need to consider the possibility that he's just the Terminator and is scum and he either knows John Conner is in the town *or* he just made it up to look more townie.

There is a LONG LONG LONG history of scum trying to associate themselves with townie sounding roles in order to look more townie.

I am showing you that long long long history.

Quote from Grakthis

You started with the premise that he would need to kill John Conner to be scum. I am pointing out to you that you need to consider the possibility that he's just the Terminator and is scum and he either knows John Conner is in the town *or* he just made it up to look more townie.

There is a LONG LONG LONG history of scum trying to associate themselves with townie sounding roles in order to look more townie.

I am showing you that long long long history.

That wasn't what you were showing me.

You did not try to "associate" yourself with the role you knew was in the game in Musical.

Phodos did not try to "associate" himself with the role he knew was in the game in Revelstone.

I do not know what the heck Lost Misanthrope did or did not do.

You were throwing out examples of times when scum roles were given specific knowledge of the existance of a townie role.

Which begs the question why would he claim the way he claimed if all he had was knowledge of the existance of a John Connor role? Does this not doom him eventually if he's lying? And I don't think you have answered that.

Just checking in...sorry for inactivity of late...damn parents been restricting computer access, and i felt like i was a bit behind on this game (as opposed to code geass, which i am right on track with).

I'm scratching my player by player review till night starts, sigh.

I'll go over what i missed and whatnot hopefully by tonight.

Quote from Cyan

You initially voted me for no reason.

Wrong. Completely wrong, again. Cyan, I find it frustrating and suspicious that you are either extremely sloppy in this discussion or deliberately misleading. Either way you are hurting your chances of me, and perhaps others of believing you. This is the post that I voted for you in and it clearly shows that I voted for you for more then “no reason”.

Quote from HAWKEYE7

(zoom in for a close up. Just from the waist up, diffuse the light. Good)

"You know. I believe the point he was making was that the PBPA was near entirely negative."

"I agree with Loran that Cyan is playing differently this game, just as he described. But Cyan explained this and to be honest he's right. Now that does not mean that he is not using this as a ploy and when I look at the majority of his posts without seeing them as Cyan posts I do see the many of them as suspicious. I think that the majority of Grakthis' PBPA has merit and as such I will
UNVOTE: CP although IGMEOU
Vote: Cyan"

1) you were, and have played this game differently than your usual manner.
2) I state that I found many of your poses suspicious .
3) I found the majority of Grakthis' PBPA to have merit.
This is far from nothing.

Quote from Cyan

The you unvoted in a hurry when called on it.

Wrong. Completely wrong, again. Did you even go back and look at the posts I made leading up to my, temporarily, unvoting you? It sure doesn’t seem like it.

Quote from HAWKEYE7

Quote from Cyan

EBWODP:

I forgot something.

@Axel: Your intuition that I am a non-matrix character is correct. The non-matrix character whose role is relevant to mine is town beyond a shadow of a doubt. But again, we're not masons, the relationship is different. It's likely that this person doesn't know that my role exists, in fact.

just out of Curiosity, what would happen if that other person figured out who you are?

Quote from HAWKEYE7

Quote from Cyan

@RafK: It is possible(though highly unlikely) that a 'counter' exists to my role. However, the relationship between my role and the other role I know of is so obvious that, if I die at some point before claiming and only my role is revealed, there is no way anyone will be able to take advantage of the information. People will literally see my role/name and say 'oh, the other role can only possibly be soandso', and they'll be right.

Are you going to answer my question?

Quote from HAWKEYE7

(move in slow)




UNVOTE: CYAN

"This is a freebie."
"Cyan, I can think of only two legitimate reasons for you not to have responded to Grakthis' case yet. only one of them is in the best interests of the town. The other is just selfish, but not necessarily scummy. I think that it is time for you to address them.

Show me exactly where you or anyone “Called” me on my vote for you and thus got me to unvote you.

Quote from Cyan

Then later you voted me again because I didn't respond to the PBPA when I said I would. I don't recall you saying that you agreed with the PBPA itself.

I can say that the first part of this statement is at least accurate. That is the reason that after repeated request for you to address Grak’s case you still had not. I have already shown that you are wrong in your recollection of my agreeing with the majority of Grak’s case. Here is another post I made that clearly indicates that I thought that the case had merit.

Quote from HAWKEYE7

Quote from Cyan

Speaking of you unvoting me, you never gave a reason for voting me in the first place, nor a reason for unvoting me.

And I don't feel like answering Grakthis's biased PBPA right now, this LJustus matter seems much more interesting. Besides, why would I need to prove my innocence when LJustus dying, and me being investigated(if he is telling the truth), will prove it for me? When he dies and turns up scum, I'll address Grak's attack on me at that point.

Blocking at every turn. Beautifully obstinate, don't you agree? You said you address them and now you have changed your story. Why? If you could explain you side of each of the points in Grakthis' PBPA and thus clear yourself why wouldn’t you? It is absolutely in the towns best interest for you to do so. By doing it and clearing yourself you would then free up the free investigation we would get to be used to either id a scum or confirm another townie. Do the math it is much better for the town to do this then to waste the investigation on you. Who is to say you are not the Godfather and would thus return a false town result from this sacrifice investigation. This could easily be the reason you are trying to make the choice of investigation yourself.
As for why I initially voted for you, it is all in the post that I made when I voted for you.

Quote from HAWKEYE7

(zoom in for a close up. Just from the waist up, diffuse the light. Good)

"You know. I believe the point he was making was that the PBPA was near entirely negative."

"I agree with Loran that Cyan is playing differently this game, just as he described. But Cyan explained this and to be honest he's right. Now that does not mean that he is not using this as a ploy and when I look at the majority of his posts without seeing them as Cyan posts I do see the many of them as suspicious. I think that the majority of Grakthis' PBPA has merit and as such I will
UNVOTE: CP although IGMEOU
Vote: Cyan"

Grakthis' PBPA is very extensive and contains many very sharp observations that I had noted myself in reviewing my notes. Since it is already posted and in the public record, there is no need to reiterate what he had already said. This is also why I have asked you more then once to address his PBPA.
I will reiterate this, you posted that you would address that PBPA and have been asked several time to follow through on that promise.
You have ignored those calls up till now and now you are offering up a lame excuse for backing away from your promise.

If Ljustus’ second ability is on a par with his lynch investigation, then I think I would be in favor of lynching Cyan and taking the night ability if Ljustus is night killed. If he is not night killed then we can always lynch him later.

My vote will stay where it is.

Honestly, how could you expect this type of sloppy or deliberately misleading response to my post to convince me you are telling the truth?

Quote from HAWKEYE7

Deep?
Somebody help me!, I'm being allusive!
Actually, I thought I was being ridiculously obvious.
Thanks, I very glad to see that I have, apparently, over estimated the powers of observation of some.

And you accuse me of saying things that don't actually make sense when you consider them.:rolleyes:

@Axel: I understood Grak's post to mean that he thought it reasonable that Cyan was given knowledge of a town role in the game, and that he has exploited that knowledge. Why should he have to find games where unknown and irrelevant players used the info differently, when all he has to show is that there is precedent for the type of info that Cyan has, to be in a scum role PM? You're assuming he's arguing from a premise that is unnessecary to his point, and then showing that said premise is wrong. Nice straw man.

Anyway, let's run up half the town today to claim range, get them all to say that they can clear themselves, given 3 or 4 days (as they all do), and then lynch one of them randomly out of impatience. Then, when day 4 rolls around, we'll belatedly realize that we still have to guess at which of them are scum, because the clearing we thought they could do could have been faked, and we can't lynch them all.

Or, let's not, and start the Day 4 process now, without giving away more information to the scum.

Quote from RafaelK

It's nice and innocuous to talk of "checking", but of course "checking" with LJ requires lynching him. Not just killing him, either- using the town lynch on him and going to night.

That's some interesting selective reading, Raf. Maybe you didn't notice that I'm against lynching?

Also, that prod about me and DYH having a "smaller posting history"- when you yourself have a smaller one- and noting we have not claimed, as if we should have done so for some reason...

Yes, "smaller," because I was comparing you to Cyan. Do you disagree? And I'm not sure what you're thinking about the claim part, because again, it's in comparison to Cyan.

And obviously, I'm not going to suggest myself, because I know I'm town. (And also because anyone suggesting themselves for something like that is suspect anyway.)

I don't like that at all. That's exactly your brand of subtle insinuation as scum.

I thought you knew me better, Raf.

I'm still not willing to unvote Cyan, that is unless we move back to atlseal. I still think Cyan's role is too narrow and it's to easy to have the knowledge Cyan has put forth and not be town. The back and forth arguing between Grak and Cyan is not doing much to convince me to put Cyan above atlseal as my primary lynch choice for today or to unvote Cyan. They're really just rehashing the argument(s) from earlier.

I think Raf is making a mountain out of a molehill with his accusations at Fade. Yes, Fade has been quiet so far today, but it's not like he's been invisible.

And the mafia games and roles that Grak and Axel are referencing from other sites, I'm reluctant to take into account. First I have to have it confirmed that Az has read those games, then I have to believe he's willing to use similiar roles in his own game and then I have to question his game setup as to whether or not they seem like good roles to include. There's too many if's and blind belief for all of that to take place. All of which makes me think that the examples given hold little water and the arguing between the two of them is more just mucking up the game than anything else.

Quote from Cyan

Way to misinterpret what I said *again*. My point was that, when I made that post, I had not given any indication that I had researched you. You jumped to this conclusion for no reason, presumably other than to make yourself look good. And it means nothing anyway. I notice that you have conveniently stopped mentioning how I was trying to 'attack your credibility', since that clearly holds no water.

LOL!!!! So?!? Who cares if you had told us that you researched me at that point? You said it by the time I did my PBPA and it is objectively true. That is all that matters.

Bu tthe time I accused you of attacking my credibility (which was when I did my PBPA) you had admitted to researching me... in the past... which is exactly what I accused you of.

You seem to not understand the flow of time. Do I need to explain it to you?

Quote from Cyan »

This is erronous logic, just like it was last time. You are asserting that every person who overreacts to you is scum. That is a silly notion. Just because someone doesn't like you and unfortunately lets you get under their skin doesn't magically make them scum somehow, obviously.

I haven't asserted that everyone who overreacts to me is scum.

More lies from Cyan. Or nice strawman. Either one works.

Quote from Cyan »

Take my word for what? There is no logical way to come to the conclusion that I was 'attacking your credibility'. That is simply what you want to think, because it benefits you. And indeed, you are apparently the only one that somehow decided this. I would say that makes it likely that you're in the wrong.

No. There is a logical way. It's the way I logic'd it out. The way that the 8 other people voting for you also agreed with.

You read up on me as a player, then your first exchange with me was you subtly badmouthing me and playing down my credibility.

Scum.

Quote from Cyan »

This means nothing, it is just more of your self-aggrandizing. The fact that you claim to be good at 'finding scum' doesn't automatically mean that every person you attack is scum, obviously. I've only lost a couple of games where I lived past Day 2 as town. That proves absolutely nothing, because you(nor myself) are not singlehandedly responsible for deciding the outcome of the game. Everyone whom is alive is.

I never said that everyoe who attacks me is scum and I never said I was singlehandidly responsible for deciding the outcome fo the game.

More strawmen from Cyan! YAYAYAYAYAYAY!

You keep arguing against things I didn't say. You should stop doing that and try arguing witht he things I DID say.

Quote from Cyan »

You have provided one person that I theoretically 'backtracked' on, and I have explained multiple times how it wasn't backtracking because I never suggested any real suspicion of him to begin with. No votes, etc. I noted a couple of posts, and you are playing that up greatly to serve your own purpose.

Obv, I disagree and so do 8 other people.

Quote from Cyan »

This might be valid, if not for one problem. You're the only person that brought it up. Even after you mentioned it specifically in the first PBPA, no one came along and said 'hey that's a good point'. It seems clear to me that, in general, people understood who I was referencing. If you didn't, I don't know what to tell you. Certainly, expecting me to alter how I post because *you* have trouble making inferences doesn't make alot of sense.

That is sound logic. Your posting confuses people and makes it easy for you to backtrack and look scummy. But you will not change your posting style for anyone! RAWR! YOU GO CYAN!

You know what you should do instead? Stop playing mafia. That's what I would do if I refused to quote people and make it obvious who and what I was responding to.

Mafia is not a game for beign vague. Unless you're in the mafia, natch. Which you are.

Quote from Cyan »

Once again, you're misrepresenting me. I stated, initially and in my response to you, which is clear if you just read the words themselves, that while I wasn't a fan of the wagon on Xyre, I was suspicious of him for my own reasons. I even went so far as to *list those reasons*. Are you really saying that it's impossible to find someone scummy, while disagreeing with reasons that other people are voting him? That doesn't really make alot of sense. And I already explained how it makes me more accountable. I voted him, and did so for specifically stated reasons. I don't see how a person can be any MORE accountable than that.

I am saying it's scummy to provie a bunch of reasons for and against something and then to take a wishy-washy stance one way or the other.

It's scummy to be flexible. Take a position and argue it.

Quote from Cyan »

Except that, when I made the statements, I myself said that I wasn't sure if it actually meant anything. I was pointing it out in case it became important later. I'm not sure what you're not getting here.

That's you're scum. I thought that was obvious?

Quote from Cyan »

No, you really can't. In one sentence, you're attacking me for not doing something. In the next, you're attacking me for doing what you attacked me for not doing in the first sentence. This is called a 'double standard'. Furthermore, I have explained *why* I voted Loran and not CP already, in a logical fashion.

Ok... I am not sure how to explain this any simpler. Either you just don't get it, or you're playing dumb on purpose.

I'll try one more time...

It doesn't matter which conclusion you reached at the end. What mattered was the wishy-washy limp-wristed route you took to get there.

Quote from Cyan »

No, I'm not, because I maintained that I wasn't seriously suspicious of CP the entire time. This is ridiculous. Did I ever say 'I'm seriously suspicious of CP?'. No, I didn't. But I've said that multiple other times this game(including against Loran, which you are trying to hold against me). It doesn't make alot of sense that I would 'try to backpedal alot' with CP but not with anyone else. You're accusing me of 'backpedaling' in an instance where I was never of the stance that you're initially charging. It can't be backpedaling because, again, I was never that suspicious of him.

You still don't get it.

Ok, let me tell you one of my favorite mafia analogies. I call it the 300 pound biker.

If you walk into a bar and sit down next to a 300 pound biker and look at him and say "Are you a queer?" he's going to beat the **** out of you. It doesn't matter how many times you say to him "BUT I DIDN'T CALL YOU A QUEER! I ASKED YOU IF YOU ARE!!!"

It doesn't matter how many times you stand here and tell me you weren't suspiscious of Cyan... your posts implied that you were. The 300 pound biker is still beating the crap out of you. you can deny it all you want to, but you and I both know what you were doing.

Scum love to to it. You make the implication without actually making a statement that people can pin down.

Quote from Cyan »

You said that LJustus is 'not clever enough to pull this gambit'. You also, essentially, called atlseal a coward. Those are personal attacks, and serve only to make the person look weaker, thus making your own position appear stronger.

I made it clear that i was not insulting LJustus at the time and it's clear he didn't take offense to it.

I also provided Atlseal the chance to admit he was scum instead. The only way he's a coward, is if he's a townie.

I don't see the problem here.

And I was trying to make a point with ATL... make your opinion known, argue it, and either vote based on it or explain why you aren't voting. And FOS doesn't do anything for anyone except make them look wishy washy.

Quote from Cyan »

Please. The only person that is voting me based on your analysis, from what I can read, is Vampyr. Hawkeye voted me because I didn't respond to your analysis after saying I would, I don't recall him ever saying whether or not he agreed with the analysis itself.

Keep telling yourself that.

Quote from Cyan »

So what you're saying is, because you think it is iffy, that automatically makes people guilty? Also, if the wagon was iffy, why didn't you even *mention* the other people on it. Are they all clean, and magically I'm the only person scummy for getting on the wagon in that fashion, when many people did the same thing? This doesn't work for multiple reasons. For one thing, you are trying to assert your opinion as fact. If you're wrong about the wagon being 'iffy', and clearly many people didn't think it was, as indicated by the amount of people that joined the wagon, there is nothing for you to attack me for in the first place. And attacking me while giving everyone else a pass is hugely inconsistent. You never mentioned that wagon being 'iffy' in regards to anyone else on it.

First of all, I will probably review other people on iffy wagons later int he game when we have a few dead scum.

Second of all, yes, wagons are determined iffy by me for the purposes of MY analysis. Seriously... where are you going with this line? That no one can catch scum based on opinions, only FACTS!

Thrid of all, nice strawman, yet again. I didn't say EVERYONE on an iffy wagon was scum.

Quote from Cyan »

Right. It would have been much better to flip-flop again, right? Once again, you are clearly trying to put a double-standard to me. If I hadn't stuck to my guns, you would just say it was one more example of me flip-flopping. Sticking to my guns makes me accountable for my position.

see? This is exactly why it was scummy. This is exactly what was going through your head at the time.

"I cannot change my mind, because then I am flip-flopping again! I must stick to my guns even though it is a bad idea!"

It's all about timing, scum. Also, what you did was a MARKED change in your behavior. You had been flip-flopping all game.. then as soon as I call you out for it, you stop. Huh. Strange.

Quote from Cyan »

How about you provide some other examples of me flip-flopping, because one instance of me doing it is not 'flip-flopping', it is me changing my mind based upon new information. Someone else's posts in regards to ZDS made me reconsider my position. I don't want to be more specific about it because, if I'm right about that person, it puts them needlessly in jeopardy, and it seems to be something that people in general didn't notice. It's not that hard to understand.

You shoudl go back and read my PBPA. I point it out several times.

Quote from Cyan »

Again, you are apparently the only person that didn't realize who I was talking to, since you're the only one that brought it up. Asserting that there is something wrong with my posting style(and you're not even explaining why it is wrong, at that) because YOU AND ONLY YOU don't get it is silly.

Actually, i am pretty sure you are just lying about who you were talking to. But even if you weren't... how do you know other people didn't follow? I am just th eonly person who made a PBPA.

Quote from Cyan »

It is easy enough to assert that you think a person is scum without obviously trying to dig out information about their role. And I was nowhere near 9 votes at the time, so I fail to see how that is valid.

The reason it's valid is because *I* believe you to be scum and *I* was ready for you to give me role information.

Quote from Cyan »

No, you didn't. Go read it again.

How about a better idea... you're making the accusation. Why don't you quote it and link it?

Quote from Cyan »

Do you even realize what you're referencing here? I never claimed mason and was never trying to claim mason. I clarified this because alx came to a wrong conclusion and posted it. Are you saying that it would be better to allow him to keep thinking I was a mason when clearly I wasn't? Then you'd be accusing me of leading him on. Double-standards again.

300 pound biker. etc etc.

Quote from Cyan »

Please illustrate where it says 'after the trilogy' anywhere. It is possible that this was the intention and I misunderstood it, but that's all it was. A misunderstanding.

The peace between the machines and humans happens at the end of the third movie. It's discussed in the matrix MMORPG.

Quote from Cyan »

Voting him is a waste of time now. The town has made it clear that he's not going to be lynched today. Continuing to attack him would only serve as a distraction. I might think one thing, but I recognize that the rest of the town doesn't agree, and that beating a dead horse isn't going to help anyone.

So what you're saying is, you'd rather go with the flow then beat your own path?

Afraid to draw attention to yourself?

[qutoe=Cyan]This is a huge generalization, and is wholly untrue. If I thought I knew who the Cop was(example purposes only, I am not claiming this), would discussing it to any good for the town? No, it wouldn't. If anything, it would be harmful to the town, because A)I could be right and that would put needless pressure on him or B)I could be wrong but the real Cop could give himself away in saying so. The statement that 'all discussion is good for the town' could not possibly be less true. Particularly, in a case where it is just two people bickering about things that don't matter.[/quote]

No... it's true. All discussion is information. Information benefits the town.

I've actually used posts where we were discussing someone NON-game related to catch scum before.

It doesn't matter what we discuss. Just that the scum keep posting. Now, some topics are BETTER than others... but all topics are useful. ALL OF THEM.

Quote from Cyan »

You were already voting me, by the way. I'm not sure what that is supposed to mean.

Furthermore, I responded to everything you said, and certainly didn't just say 'Nuh uh your face'..whatever that means. The things that I *did* accuse you of are completely seperate of any accusations you made against me. And even then, I only accused you of anything to the point of using it to illustrate how invalid your PBPA(and this response) were. Hell, I flat-out stated at the end that I don't think you're scum. How does that track with me only saying 'No, You'? Doesn't make alot of sense.

because your responses are things like....

Me: "Cyan is adversarial."

You: "No I'm not."

Me: "I am nto taking your word for that."

Unless you can provide context to demonstrate your argument, then all you're doing is saying "No U :mad:"

Which isn't gonna make me unvote you.

Quote from Cyan »

He already stated that the town will choose who gets investigated. Maybe you should pay more attention.

And perhaps that post was directed at the town as a whole?

Quote from Axelrod

That wasn't what you were showing me.

You did not try to "associate" yourself with the role you knew was in the game in Musical.

1) I planned to, you can verify this by reading the mafia forums. I am 99.99% sure we discussed it.

2) I wasn't forced to roleclaim in musical till the end game.

Quote from Axelrod »

Phodos did not try to "associate" himself with the role he knew was in the game in Revelstone.

You're right. He didn't. But Phodos didn't roleclaim till they massclaimed. And he still knew he was there.

And in Revelstone, Caedere DID associate himself with the townie role in the exact same bodyguard claim that Cyan is making here.

Quote from Axelrod »

I do not know what the heck Lost Misanthrope did or did not do.

In that case he was a lyncher, and he came out and claimed an investigation result. It was handled poorly.

Quote from Axelrod »

You were throwing out examples of times when scum roles were given specific knowledge of the existance of a townie role.

*ding* *ding* *ding*

Quote from Axelrod »

Which begs the question why would he claim the way he claimed if all he had was knowledge of the existance of a John Connor role? Does this not doom him eventually if he's lying? And I don't think you have answered that.

He just needs to last long enough to win. And we can't prove he's lying unless John Conner dies or we massclaim at the end of the game.

Either way you look at it, it's better than getting lynched right now.

Also, if John Conner shows up dead, he can try to claim he was roleblocked or something, and try to use Conner's alignment to support his claim.

Assuming nothing new happens, either Cyan or LJ is going to get lynched today. Everyone should just vote whichever plan they support and then give their opinion on who LJ should investigate if he gets lynched.

I'm fine with either plan but currently support lynching LJ more. I think he should investigate someone who's been less active since they're the hardest to get reads on later in the game. Hvir would be a fine choice here since he's been gathering some suspicion.

Quote from HAWKEYE7

Axe, fade and CP, if you were to look at Cyan’s posts and filter out his claim, what is your opinion of his play this game? What if you filtered out that it was Cyan who acted and reacted as he has?

I forgot to answer this question in my last post.

Basically, I'm in agreement with most of what Grak has said. He's been very good at pointing out questionable play on Cyan's part. I also feel that Cyan's play here is more similar to his scum play than his town play (however slight the difference may be).

If I were to filter out that it was Cyan, then I would definitely support the lynch. The problem is that Cyan is just incredibly scummy in every game, and he seems unwilling to change (though perhaps we should institute a "lynch all Cyans" metagame ploy to get him to shape up). For example, if you look at him in DotA, it feels like the exact same thing - incredibly scummy play saved only by a claim.

Quote from ZeDorkSlipeur

I'm in favor of getting someone lynched in the very near future. We are getting to the point where discussion is entering a circle (everyone seems to have a pretty firm position on every matter, so unless a very convincing case is made on someone other than atlseal or Cyan, we won't get any further). This looks like the best time to get the day to end.

Agreed. I was about to point this out. I'm supporting a Cyan's lynch, but I'm still fine with a LJ lynch. If the latter is what happens, then Xyre would indeed be a good target for the investigation ; a nice second choice would be Sutherlands.

Quote from Vampyr

And the mafia games and roles that Grak and Axel are referencing from other sites, I'm reluctant to take into account. First I have to have it confirmed that Az has read those games, then I have to believe he's willing to use similiar roles in his own game and then I have to question his game setup as to whether or not they seem like good roles to include. There's too many if's and blind belief for all of that to take place. All of which makes me think that the examples given hold little water and the arguing between the two of them is more just mucking up the game than anything else.

Azrael WAS the townie player who the Mafia member claimed to be the bodyguard for in order to buddy up to him and cause the town to say "well, as long as Azrael is alive, we shouldn't lynch Caedere (the mafia member who claimed bodyguard)."

SO yeah... Azrael is without a doubt aware of that role.

And frankly, it doesn't matter one way or the other. No one is saying that Azrael copied these other games. I am saying that it's PLAUSIBLE and we know this because it's happened before.

Quote from Grakthis

Azrael WAS the townie player who the Mafia member claimed to be the bodyguard for in order to buddy up to him and cause the town to say "well, as long as Azrael is alive, we shouldn't lynch Caedere (the mafia member who claimed bodyguard)."

SO yeah... Azrael is without a doubt aware of that role.

I don't get it. It's not a ROLE, it's a FALSE CLAIM. Why does it matter if Azrael is/was aware of it?

If the choice is between LJ and Cyan, my vote is for Cyan for reasons already stated.

If it turns out to be LJ, my suggestion for his investigation target is atlseal. I think having his alignment proven will lead to a concrete lynch or beneficial information for the town.

Quote from Alx2

I don't get it. It's not a ROLE, it's a FALSE CLAIM. Why does it matter if Azrael is/was aware of it?

The "role" part is a mafia member who has knowledge of a townie role. This has been done multiple times in multiple games on MT. It was done in TSM on MT, and we didn't even mention that one.

the "false claim" part is relevant because it's a false claim that has been used before when specific roles and role knowledge are given to the mafia. I.E. when mafia members get roles that have knowledge of townies, they sometimes claim to be protecting those townies.

What I am saying is, Cyan's claim could easily be similar to what happened in these other games.

I'm not denying the possibility. I'm just saying the chance of this doesn't make Cyan lynchworthy. We have several ways in which Cyan's claim could either backfire or clear him. The percentage play seems to be to leave him alone for now.

Quote from Alx2

I'm not denying the possibility. I'm just saying the chance of this doesn't make Cyan lynchworthy.

Man... you just made my top 5 with a bullet. That was... impressive.

No... his ROLE does not make him lynchworthy.

His behavior before he roleclaimed does.

Quote from Alex »

We have several ways in which Cyan's claim could either backfire or clear him. The percentage play seems to be to leave him alone for now.

The only way his role clears him is him dying.

the only way his role backfires is Conner dying or no one claiming conner (including one of his scum mates).


I don't see that as a high percentage play.

Were you one of the people wanting to lynch our claimed JOAT?

Quote from Grakthis

No... his ROLE does not make him lynchworthy.

His behavior before he roleclaimed does.

The only thing genuinely scummy about his behavior was the panicked reaction to LJ's claim. The rest, I'm not buying.

Quote from Grakthis

Were you one of the people wanting to lynch our claimed JOAT?

Ah, you remembered. Yes. I may return to him yet.

ZDS has a point, and if I'm were to try to synch who I want investigated with LJ's ability with everyone else, I'd be fine with Hvir being the target.

I have a decent PBPA of Sutherlands worked up..but I guess I won't post it now if people don't want to consider other lynch possibilities today.

Quote from Cyan

I have a decent PBPA of Sutherlands worked up..but I guess I won't post it now if people don't want to consider other lynch possibilities today.

I think the opinion of the "people" is pretty much split.

Maybe this will make a difference. Lynching me won't accomplish anything. I have multiple lives.

This is the last bit of my role info that I was trying to keep from the mafia, for wholly obvious reasons. But considering that I still somehow am facing the possibility of being lynched today, it seems better to reveal it now and let people factor it into their decisions than to get lynched and not die and have to explain it tomorrow.

This is also why I said that I want to be the lynch vote on LJustus. I strongly suspect some kind of gambit on his part, and if he's some kind of bomber, I will survive it.

Um. . . if I was some kind of bomber, would I want to be the one to hammer? I wouldn't survive it anyway.

Quote from Alx2

The only thing genuinely scummy about his behavior was the panicked reaction to LJ's claim. The rest, I'm not buying.

Then why are you harping on the roleclaim? It's not even relevant, because you don't think he's scummy enough to be lynched. BTW, if I find out you were voting for Cyan when he roleclaimed (and I will be checking later) I will be voting for you after that.

Quote from Alex »

Ah, you remembered. Yes. I may return to him yet.

So, you think our JOAT is a SAFER lynch than a claimed bodyguard?!?

:wacko:

Quote from Cyan »

Maybe this will make a difference. Lynching me won't accomplish anything. I have multiple lives.

This is the last bit of my role info that I was trying to keep from the mafia, for wholly obvious reasons. But considering that I still somehow am facing the possibility of being lynched today, it seems better to reveal it now and let people factor it into their decisions than to get lynched and not die and have to explain it tomorrow.

This is also why I said that I want to be the lynch vote on LJustus. I strongly suspect some kind of gambit on his part, and if he's some kind of bomber, I will survive it.

PERFECT!

if you're telling the truth, you don't even die! And we'll know you're town because NO moderator would make a mafia role that doesn't die to a lynch!

This is a no-lose situation here.

@LJustus: Because you're full of crap and gain some incentive by being the lynch vote on your own lynch. No idea. I just trust nothing you say. If you're telling the truth, does it matter who lynches you? No, it doesn't.

@Grak: Axelrod made a role in Trek Mafia that had 2 lives and would survive a lynch.

EBWODP: A scum role that is.

Now you're reaching.

All that matters to me is that I don't trust you, and don't want to follow any course of action that you suggest, with the exception of lynching you, since I think you're just lying about the end result. What I really wish is that I had a daykill, then I could just solve this on my own. And I'd live to talk about it, too, all things considered. But oh well.

Quote from Grakthis

Then why are you harping on the roleclaim? It's not even relevant, because you don't think he's scummy enough to be lynched. BTW, if I find out you were voting for Cyan when he roleclaimed (and I will be checking later) I will be voting for you after that.

Where did you get the bolded part from?! I did in fact vote him for the panicked response to the LJ claim. That part was scummy enough to be lynched for. Then unvoted when I realized his claim pushed him into a corner anyway. My logic is impeccable.

For the billionth time, it wasn't a panicked response. I would love nothing more than to be investigated and have yet another example of Grakthis thinking he knows what he's talking about when he doesn't. Seriously. I realize that's a childish thing to say, but his attitude infuriates me on a level that has absolutely nothing to do with the game of mafia. I've never in my posting career been so tempted to put someone on Ignore. Not even PetroleumJelly/Shea.

Seriously, for everyone that says my response was 'panicked', I challenge you to find a time that I have *ever* panicked in a game of mafia on this site. Considering how many I've been on, the number of situations like these I've been in, etcetera, it shouldn't be that hard. It doesn't happen. I don't buckle under pressure.

I didn't panick. Once again, if I didn't want to be investigated, I would not have pushed for LJustus to be lynched(and continued to push for it in the face of all resistance). I called LJustus out because I think he is lying grandiosly. Everytime he talks about what an amazing analyst I am, it gives me flashbacks of Verona Mafia, where he did exactly the same thing to me as scum. Like I said, if I had a daykill, LJustus would be dead now, and would have been proven a liar. Sadly for me, it's not that simple.

@Alx: It should be obvious to you that you're wasting your time arguing with Grakthis. He is never going to change his mind short of me dying. Any number of people, including fadeblue, axelrod, etc etc, have made quality arguments on my behalf. Save your energy for something that will actually accomplish something, vainly trying to convince Grakthis isn't even remotely worth the bother.

Quote from Cyan

@Alx: It should be obvious to you that you're wasting your time arguing with Grakthis. He is never going to change his mind short of me dying.

You're not exactly Mr. Open Minded as well. I think you two pretty much deserve each other.

I am actively working at changing that, as evidenced at least in other games, if not in this one at this juncture. It genuinely dismays me that so much of the town's time is continually wasted on my play, as I said earlier.

Quote from atlseal

No, this is the C.S. Lewis one as far as I could determine. I guess I'll go ahead and say my role now too...

I'm the Jack-of-all trades

My night abilities to choose from are: supercop (I get a player's name and role), doc, vig, and roleblock.

My -2 drawback comes from the grin emoticon. I have to use it once per day or be modkilled and once I use it, I'm at -2 to lynch.

Ok, screw that. As much as the Cyan/Grak argument is fun, we need to have progress. Plus, Cyan's attempt to embrace his inner child touched my heart.

So, here goes.

My own role acts, in a certain way, like a weak name cop. Which means that, in some circumstances, I could reveal a player's rolename. Just the rolename. Not role, not alignment. And even that isn't guaranteed. Sometimes, my ability will do nothing (as far as I know). Given this knowledge, I am almost 100% certain atlseal cannot be the role he's claiming. Sheesh, NAME AND ROLE, PLUS VIG/DOC/RB? No.

I could elaborate more on my ability, if y'all want. It's not supersecret.

Unvote, vote atlseal.

That doesn't exactly seem like compelling evidence against atlseal's claim. The JoAT role pretty much always does the same thing(well, I'm not actually sure if it's usually a 'supercop' investigation, someone else will have to clarify that). Plus, if your role doesn't always work, it's not much of a counter to atlseal, I don't think. I'm pretty confused as to how you reached the conclusion that you did here.

Because his role is better than my own on, oh, like 4 counts.

- name only vs. name+role
- always works vs. sometimes works
- 3 other added abilities.

two roles with such disparity of power in same game?

You realize that JoAT abilities are 1-shot, right?

I am amazed at people's willingness to defend atlseal eventhough he's right here, viewing the thread for the last 10-15 minutes.

Maybe let him respond?

Cop > Vanilla townie.

@ZDS: Please. Grakthis is the worst example of a forum bully that I have ever encountered, and I've encountered plenty. When your 'playstyle of choice' makes the game not fun for other people playing, that's not acceptable. And it's not fun being demeaned and talked down to in the manner that Grakthis acts.

@Alx: No one is defending atlseal. We're just trying to explain things to you. Like I said..JoAT is all 1-shot abilities. Hopefully that helps you put things into perspective.

I don't really see what there is to defend myself against here. As to my being on the thread for the past 10-15 minutes, it would be more correct to say I had a tab open to the thread and was actually responding to some e-mai.l So excuse me if I'm not able to respond to any accusations of me while looking at a completely different tab in my browser. As Cyan stated, it seems like you're confused about how a JoAT works.

@Spoon: What???

My frustration factor is starting to rise with this game. Unvote: Cyan, Vote: LJustus.

LJ wants to die, I'm helping him. I disagree with investigating H-guy. I still think it should be atlseal.

Let's kill the guy that wants to die, leave Cyan be the hammer, let the world blow up and sort things out tomorrow.

Unvote, vote Ljustus, investigate atlseal please.