DYH said that he was also from the Terminator series. The T-800 role is the single largest role in the entire Terminator mythos. Can we agree that Cyan could not have made up the claim completely? Or are you seriously arguing that he just got extremely lucky (1) someone else was actually in this game from the Terminator series and (2) that person - and no one else either - wasn't the main character that Cyan decided to fake being?
Fabricating the existance of a John Connor role would be extremely gutsy in a different way. What if there was a request for this non-existant role to come out? What then?
Perhaps, you say, he could have correctly predicted that everyone would immediately say that John Connor should NOT come out, thus preventing him from being exposed. Perhaps, but that is/was far from a sure thing.
And in any event, at a minimum, Cyan would be guaranteed to be exposed later in the game when the time comes for a mass claim of the remaining players - which virtually always happens. When no John Connor appears, Cyan is an easy lynch.
I had another thought which was the possibility that Cyan himself could be John Connor, but is scum (and faking being his own BG), but that really doesn't make sense. Why not claim John Connor straight up, which certainly sounds more townie? And any role that the town could have that could counter John Connor being town, would be equally able to counter this body-guard claim, so false claiming like this would not seem to do anything for him. Plus, it would still have the same problem of inevitible exposure.
Or he is an SK and needs to find and kill John Conner.
A SK, by definition, needs to kill everyone in the game. A SK with the mission to kill John Conner in addition is redundant.
But wait, could he be a role that only needs to kill John Connor? Does that make any sense at all? What kind of poor role would that be anyway, Kill one and done? I refuse to believe that.
Could he be Mafia, but with a special side win condition of needing to kill John Connor? Again, this seems redundant. Mafia need to kill everyone else to win - unless you say that technically the mafia only need to get the game state into a position where their winning is inevitable, and technically they don't need to kill all the town (the final townies being "end-gamed" not counting) and therefore it might be possible fot the Mafia to "win" without eliminating the John Connor role, in which case this special Mafia role would still lose. I view that possibility also as highly unlikely and not worth a lot of time worrying about.
The only role that would seem even slightly possible would be some kind of Neutral role that needs to survive, and also needs the John Connor role dead. I suppose that's conceivable, but it still doesn't jibe with the presence of other Terminator roles in the game. It still seems like John Connor might have had an actual protector in that case, who could expose Cyan's lie easily enough. Certainly the risk of such a role being in existance should have given Cyan pause before making a claim like that.
Frankly, this whole chain of thought is not productive. It is highly unlikely if not outright impossible. Cyan would have had to have been gambling greatly, and also gotten very lucky. I simply do not believe he would have false-claimed that way. Certainly not with such bravado and confidence. It is my experience that, when one is going to false-claim, if one knows what one is doing, one gererally tries to hue as closely to the truth as possible. This false-claim would have represented Cyan closing his eyes and swinging for the trees.
This is odd and not at all like you Axe. There are several other possibilities and even if you think them of no consequence I would have bet that you would have at least mentioned them or that they exist but that you think they are not useful.
You did not do that, You omitted them.
Why is that?
Why would you assume that because I do not lay out my entire thought process leading up to a conclusion that I have not actually thought about it?
There are, in fact, ways Cyan can be scum. It is possible that the John Connor role doesn't exist. It's also conceivable Cyan is some kind of scum with the special agenda of killing John Connor.
I'm only saying where my most recent thoughts have led me.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Cyan's first post, he's been talking to someone about my posting style. Tell me Cyan why would you be researching how I play mafia? Is it possibly because you wanted to know what kind of opponent I would be? Or wheather or not you should be afraid of me?
And why did you feel the need to start immediatly by attacking my credibility?
Sure is adversarial.
Hugely misinterprets my statement of having advanced knowledge. I hadn't said, at this point, that I had researched him. And in reality, I haven't, Grakthis is flattering himself(which is clearly a common theme in all of his posting) by stating it that way. As I said later, someone whose opinion I respect has a great deal of animosity towards Grak, and I read a couple of games he was in to see this for myself. That leads me into the next part:
Quote from Grak »
Well, if he's read "some" tings games, then he also knows my reputation goes beyond just my attitude, and is support by my results.
So again, I ask, why the attack on the credibility when you know my record?
For those of you who aren't familiar, scum panic when I am alive in the town. They absolutly flop all over themselves. I make them nervous in all kinds of tingly places. I've been night or day killed in the first 2 days in almost every single game I've been town. In every completed game where I wasn't, either the town won, or I was scum.
What we see from Cyan is exactly how scum who know my reputation react to me.
I disagree that your reputation goes beyond your attitude at all, first of all. You are much more convinced of your esteem than anyone else.
And beyond that, at this point, I hadn't said a single thing about your 'credibility', and certainly not in the statement that you referenced. I said that someone I know doesn't like you. That says absolutely nothing of your supposed 'credibility', it is simple a personal feeling. (Sidenote: This is another common theme of this PBPA..Grak playing up supposed aderversarial sentiments from me towards him. At the time that I wrote that, I Was feeling nothing of the sort).
Also, as clearly evidenced by any game you've been in, especially this one, it is not only scum that react poorly to you. You bully people ridiculously, and lots of people react badly to that. Are some of them scum? Obviously. Just like plenty of them, like myself now, are town. Just because someone can't handle your attitude doesn't make them scum. That is absurd, but it is exactly what you are asserting here.
Quote from Grakthis »
Call's the actions of CP questionable, without actually posting his own opinions about ZDS, or even linking or quoting the posts by CP he doesn't like.
Nice and vague.
I didn't need to post my own opinion about ZDS, because I wasn't talking about ZDS. That doesn't even make sense. I also didn't need to link to/quote the post in question because it was within a few posts of my own. What I was referring to was obvious.
This absolutly makes me giggle with delight. He might as well have held up a sign proclaiming his guilt.
First, he says he's not sure how he feels about the bandwagon on Xyre, then he votes Xyre. So obviously, he was lying when he said he wasn't sure... that, or else he changed his mind in the time it took him to type the next thought.
This is a classic tell, because it gives him a TON of room to backtrack meanwhile he's distancing himself from the bandwagon itself nicely by saying he doesn't agree with the original attack on Xyre anyways.
I stated that I didn't agree with the bandwagon on Xyre. I then stated that, for such a bad wagon, he was reacting really poorly to it. That combined with similarities between how he was acting and how I acted as scum in Trek Mafia led me to vote him. If anything, the fact that I called out the wagon and voted him on something else makes me *more* accountable for my vote, not less so. Anyone can just join a bandwagon, then more or less avoid suspicion if that wagon collapses. I had my own reasons for voting him, which I clearly illustrated. Just because I didn't like his wagon doesn't mean that I can't find him scummy anyway.
Again, talking about CP without quoting or pointing out any actual comments by CP.
And at first he was calling out CP for defending someone, now he's calling out CP for attacking someone. These two behaviors seem to be pretty consistent in my mind. CP is showing confidence and willingness to post opinions. These are positive things.
Does it scare you when townies do positive things, Cyan?
You appear to have missed the point here. I pointed out an abnormality in how CP was acting. I also flatly stated that I'm not sure if it means anything. In the other post, I stated that I found it odd that he was defending someone so avidly, which is simply unusual for early in a game of mafia, and was particularly unsettled by this because, the last time he did so, he was scum. This is a valid point. He responded to this and I was satisfied with his response, hence I didn't bring it up again. Again, there was no need for me to provide reference here, as far as CP being overly aggressive. It was early in the game, and it was a general statement.
So we get a one liner, again not actually pointing out what posts of Loran's he's talking about, but unlike the two comments towards CP, he actually VOTES for Loran.
Why vote for Loran but not CP? Both cases are weakly spelled out, and weakly argued... but one of them he votes and the other he doesn't?
Worth remembering if one of the three dies.
So wait. In one instance, you're attacking me for not voting CP. Then you're attacking me for the same thing, except this time I voted someone. You can't have it both ways. Besides, what I accused Loran of, vs. what I accused CP of(if you can even call it that) are completely different. What Loran was doing was something that is scummy in and of itself. My unsureness regarding CP was essentially metagaming. So yes, I voted Loran for being scummy, but didn't vote CP because he wasn't really being scummy, he was just being alot different than usual. How terrible of me.
Quote from Grak »
Here we go... more of him backpeddling away from his attack on CP. Man... if I hadn't been reading CP as solidly town, I'd think these two were scum together.
Actually, if Cyan shows up scum, I will be seriously considering that a basis for a CP lynch... because Cyan is strongly signaling like he started the game distancing himself from CP (attacking for weakreasons, and not voting) and then as soon as he's given an excuse, he becomes CP's best friend in the whole world and starts attacking anyone who is questioning CP.
It's not 'backpedaling', because I never indicated serious suspicion of CP to begin with. I made a couple of short comments, and that was it. You are hugely playing up my posts towards CP, just like you tried to play up my 'adversarial' comments towards you, when they were nothing of the sort. But then, by now, it is fairly obvious that your MO is blowing things out of proportion and hoping that people are too intimidated to fight back. Your recent post to atlseal is a great example of this. Atlseal clearly couldn't vote you, because he was already voting someone else. He indicated a desire to see you investigated, to which you responded by personally attacking him. How townish of you.
Man, could he jump on that bandwagon ANY quicker? That bandwagon was so iffy to start with... but that didn't even make Cyan blink before he lept on the back and said GITTYUP!
I don't think that this bandwagon was iffy at all. And there was nothing more to be said. Axel's post was why I got on the wagon, and I stated exactly that. Once again, this is an example of me accepting accountability for my actions. How terrible of me, right.
Hay guyz, let's not unvote the claimed mason who has just said how easy it would be to mislynch him!
Also, let's lean heavily on flavor. What do you think?
Though, I will say this much... if ZDS turns out to be scum, I'll mark Cyan green.
Unapologetic backtracking... have a spine, scum. If you're gonna take a questionable position on a claimed mason, stick with it. Don't run away from it a post later when you're called on it. That just tips your hat.
I mean, could he flip-flop ANY faster? My favorite part is his reason for the flip-flop....
I didn't unvote him because I didn't believe him. Hell, I *still* don't really believe him. It seems to me that unvoting someone while stating disbelief of their claim is much more scummy than sticking to your guns about it.
lol. Because of some posts by someone else! HOW DETAILED AND SPECIFIC! TOTALLY TOWNIE!
I was intentionally vague here, because I don't want to bring attention to the person that I was talking to. I also wanted to illustrate that it was not because of anything ZDS himself said or did. Even now, I don't want to focus too much attention on this, because I don't think it is in the best interest of the town to do so. I just wanted to give some explanation as to what I was thinking at the time.
Quote from Grakthis »
This is the guy who has addressed MAYBE half of the issues going on in the game, has failed to respond to me poking at him and calling him scummy, and started the game by attacking my reputation and, arguably, character.
But guys, can't we all just get along?
Then in his next post... when DYH wants to know who he's talking about, Cyan is like "oh... not YOU of course." So who WERE you talking about, Cyan? Or are you afraid to be specific for the one BILLIONTH time this game?
Cyan, Ready to backtrack at a MOMENTS NOTICE! BACK-BACK-AND-AWAY!
I wasn't referring to DYH when I said this. If you read any of the posts near mine(it's called reading statements 'in context') it's obvious who I was talking to. I didn't want DYH to think I was calling him out when I wasn't..makes sense to me. And also, I don't see where you get that DYH wants to know who I was talking about. DYH said he would try to tone it down, and I clarified my statement that I didn't mean him in the first place. It's pretty cut and dry. I didn't backtrack from anything, I *clarified*.
Then he drops this one on us.
How does he know there are at least two non-matrix characters in this game?
This question is now sufficiently answered. And also, in retrospect, nice attempt, on your part, at fishing for my role information.
And yes, I continued to doubt ZDS. So? For someone that has repeatedly called me out, in this very 'PBPA' of not citing sources, you're doing a fine job of exactly the same thing yourself here.
And I clarified that I wasn't a mason because A)I didn't want Alx to read the game from a false perspective and B)I felt like he was attempting to trap me into a claim that I wasn't making. Once again, I was clarifying something.
So, not only is he not paying attention to the game... he also didn't pay attention to the setup.
I still don't really get where people are deciding when this game takes place. All it says is it's the Matrix version 2.0. That really doesn't indicate when the storyline occurs. IIRC, whenever 'The One' reaches the Architect, there is always a period of temporary peace before trouble starts again. Maybe I'm misremembering that.
And here he goes AGAIN!
"I do not like ZDS role name, his claimed ability or anything about how he played, but I am not going to commit to attacking him, because then I would look scummy."
He just can't stop doing it.
I would say that me saying 'I don't like ZDS rolename, claimed ability, or play thus far this game' is a committed attack on him, thus nullifying whatever point you're trying to make here.
I am backtracking from my previous position about ZDS and Cyan not being scum together. Now, thanks to the way Cyan keeps attacking ZDS without ACTUALLY attacking him, it's reading increasingly like scum who are trying to look townie by continualy poking at a teammate they expect to die anyways.
See above.
More "let's just get along" stuff. I don't really see a problem with the posting... seems like a good discussion to me.
Why discourage discussion, Cyan?
This is hardly what I would qualify as 'discussion'. Senseless bickering, regardless of whom is involved, benefits the town none, and the mafia plenty. So you're right, I don't want people to fight for no reason, as such is just doing a disservice to the town.
I've already responded to the bit about masons surviving to the endgame and why ZDS role, as claimed, makes no sense.
To clarify something, I am still on the fence about the -2 to lynch thing, but if it does exist, it's fairly inconceivable that it is all town or all scum that suffer from it. If forced to choose between ZDS and atlseal, I am much more comfortable thinking ZDS is town than atlseal. Even though I don't like ZDS claim, or behavior, I like it better than atlseals, greatly.
I will say that, after reading this PBPA, I don't really think that Grak is scum. He is acting scummy, towards LJustus, towards atlseal, towards myself. But his actions towards ZDS in this don't really make sense from a scum perspective.
@LJustus: That doesn't mean anything. What kind of 'hitlist' would a T800 (or even a T1000 or TX) have anyway? They always have one specific goal. There is no real basis to that insinuation on your part, and is just one more example of scummy behavior by you. Particularly the 'just saying' part, where you clearly try to attack me, while trying to play it down at the same time. If you have something to say, at least be accountable for it.
If LJ is town and Cyan comes up town, we'll have two confirmed roles.
But one will be dead, which kind of defeats the purpose.
I'm still struggling with the idea of lynching someone I believe is townie, tbh, even for the gain of an investigation.
I believe (due to DYH backing Cyan on this point) that we have Terminator characters in this game. It doesn't surprise me anyway, given the TMNT group in Sin City.
The flavour arguments are all stupid. Casey Jones was scum in Sin City, and my but it helped me that I had such good flavour! Let's not make the mistake that that town made, hmm?
Flavour doesn't make the T800 a bad bodyguard, flavour doesn't make the T800 a guaranteed townie, flavour doesn't even make John Connor a guaranteed townie.
Note to DYH: Can you support not only that Terminator characters are in game, but that your flavour would support John Connor being town?
Cyan's argument based on the mod is crap. He could be making it up. Azrael's not about to confirm or deny it. It's no different to lying about your role PM, which scum of course do all the time.
Axelrod's incredibly non-committal "analysis" was a bit suspicious.
cp's, in spite of his lack of faith in me (which I find disturbing ;)) was better, and I think cp has been helping squash this stupid flavour stuff, which is good. Someone has to.
What I said, which is clearly posted right there(way to blatantly misinterpret my post..how useless when it's 2 above yours) is that I hadn't given any indication of having 'researched' his playstyle at that point, and I certainly wasn't trying to 'attack his credibility'. There is no evidence of either of these statements.
@RafK: I don't have the slightest clue about John Conner as he relates to my role, unfortunately, having never seen the movies. Wikipedia has been less than helpful. I'll read through the plot synopses when I have time and see if anything pops, though.
Explain what ? That bodyguard is a role which is hard (read : impossible) to verify with a low chance of being counterclaimed ? There, I've explained.
Um, yeah. And obviously I meant explain it in the context of the claim Cyan has made (you remmeber, Terminator, T800, Bodyguard to a specific role, other Terminator roles appearing in the game, etc) and explain how he "fakes" that without extremely high risk of getting caught? Have you actually thought it through?
Hvir has a grand total of three more posts since I made that post.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
@RafK: I don't have the slightest clue about John Conner as he relates to my role, unfortunately, having never seen the movies. Wikipedia has been less than helpful. I'll read through the plot synopses when I have time and see if anything pops, though.
I think I have some ideas of who you could be now if you are telling the truth.
The more I think about things, the more I think that Cyan might be the better lynch for today rather than LJustus. LJustus' claimed role becomes much more game-breaking the later that we wait. In addition to that, it clears up quite a bit about John Connor and how Az could be using Terminator in the mythos.
Cyan: I am not sure why you wouldn't have claimed this initially, but I remember the BG role in Sin City and I have another question - do you know who the John Connor role is in this game? Obviously don't say who, but do you know it?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Cyan: I am not sure why you wouldn't have claimed this initially, but I remember the BG role in Sin City and I have another question - do you know who the John Connor role is in this game? Obviously don't say who, but do you know it?
If I remember correctly, he said that he knew that the 2 non-Matrix roles existed, but not who had them.
But if John Connor is one of them, then who is the other, and how does that role matter to Cyan? That bothers me. I think LJustus is on to something with the hitlist thing.
If I remember correctly, he said that he knew that the 2 non-Matrix roles existed, but not who had them.
But if John Connor is one of them, then who is the other, and how does that role matter to Cyan? That bothers me. I think LJustus is on to something with the hitlist thing.
Ummm... T-800 + John Conner = 2 non-matrix roles
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
And fireballs. Proven true oh so many times over the years.
As for Cyan's claim, I have a hard time buying it, primarily on the basis that it's such a narrowly useful role. A bodyguard for one person. What happens if you're RB'ed and Connor dies. Your ability does nothing for the town now and your usefulness is relegated to your analysis ability, which, while good, can only go so far.
If your primary ability is as you claim, then all I can say is you got saddled with a role that is very uninspiring and on the surface too weak for me to buy into.
I also don't like the fact that Cyan calls out Grak for his "emotional attack" on LJ yesterday and then procedes to use "emotional attacks" on Grak when Cyan answers Grak's PBPA (or reasonable facsimile of such).
My vote stays on Cyan.
I'm still in favor of looking at atlseal as a secondary choice for a lynch. I don't buy the JoaT as a true power role and as such, I don't feel that Grak's "leave him for X many days" should be considered. His abilities are all one shot, at least that's how I understood them to be and if we do leave him alive, it's too easy to use the excuse of I was RB'ed. Sure, if we have a watcher/tracker, whichever works to find out if he does something, that person can keep an eye on atl. But relying on 'ifs' to hope that things to occur to confirm people is too dicey. I'm still of the mind that the chance of atl being scum is not worth the risk of him sowing seeds of doubt now and the scum reaping the rewards later as the town wastes investigations and/or lynches on people atl "cleared."
As for the LJ gambit. Right now I'd be willing to let him live, at least till atlseal is dealt with one way or the other. LJ claims he has something that makes him unattractive to being NK'ed. So the scum are not likely to mess with him. Leaving LJ hang around for a few more game days and seeing what sort of interesting things besides coconuts fall out of the coconut tree when you shake it up. That way his investigative ability could be more useful than a 1 in 22 shot.
PPE:
@Axel: Good luck in getting that question answered. Cyan's already been adamant about not mentioning more about his role. As a side note, I think I saw Axel winning the award on ESPN for best bass fisherman.
@Xyre: I believe said he knew 2 non-matrix roles but nothing more. I will go back and find the post for confirmation.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Soul Collector count: 184
PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
Matrix Mafia Town MVP
Medieval Mafia Mafia MVP
Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
But one will be dead, which kind of defeats the purpose.
By two confirmed roles, I meant Cyan himself and John Connor. If Cyan is townie, then conceivably he is speaking the truth about his bodyguard duty. Why would a town be given the duty to protect a scum?
@Axel: I have no idea who John Connor is. In order to save time, before the next question even gets asked, any kill attempts at John Connor are redirected to me. This is for you to Vampyr, because it deails with your question about 'what if you're RBed'. RBing me is irrelevant.
This is one of the aspects of my role that I wanted to keep hidden, because the town would have been alot better off if the mafia didn't know it if John Connor is ever outed. I have one other ability that I *really* don't want the scum to know, but if it comes down to getting lynched or revealing it, I'll just reveal it.
I have PMed Azrael to ask if I am a traditional BG with the additional stipulation that I would always protect John Connor if he is targeted, or, if John Connor is the only person I can protect. My role PM isn't really that clear on this. I'll post when he answers.
What kind of loaded scummy question is that? There is no way I can justifiably answer that question, because obviously I don't know everything about the game. I know that my ability is not one that I have to activate, thus I don't see how I could be RBed. But I have no way of knowing whether or not someone has some 'this kill can't be prevented' clause or something.
Other than that, my PM stats expilicitly that any kill attempt on John Connor will be automatically redirected to me.
Also, I asked Azrael what would happen if I have to protect John Connor in a night where I also target someone else(assuming that I work as a regular bodyguard). This is actually the reason that I don't think I work as a regular BG..you can't really be in two places at once. We'll see what he says.
LJ also claimed that he truly believed lynching him is the best course of action to be taken.
Yes, but the best course of action to what end? And only according to him. Are you suddenly so sure of LJ's intentions to automatically take him at his word and follow what he suggest?
I'm not against lynching him...just not today. If he does have the ability he states he has and and the ability he implies he has, then there's no way the scum are going to off him. I think LJ's best place for today for sure, and possibly tomorrow, pending the death toll over night, is alive and on the sidelines. Once people are cut down, if he does have this investigative ability, better targets can then be evaluated and then investigated.
This is twice now that you've come out to discredit something I've said. You now have my attention.
As for Cyan posts about non-matrix roles, here they are, up to and including his claim. Anything more recent than that someone else can look it up:
This logic might be valid if I didn't know, with absolute certainty, that there are at least two non-Matrix characters that Az tied into the story for this game. This is a big part of why I doubt ZDS claim. There is no reason to use such ridiculously obscure characters as the ones ZDS mentioned when you're already bringing in characters from outside of the original genre.
The characters that ZDS claimed can barely even be considered 'minor'. In the entire Matrix mythos, they have 2 minutes of screen time, and are never even referenced by name. It simply doesn't make sense to me for them to be included, especially as masons. Tank & Dozer would make infinite more sense as masons, or 'the twins' that work for the Merovingian. Such an obscure claim already seemed unlikely to me, especially when you factor in that not all of the characters are from The Matrix.
I mean, honestly, when you're trying to come up with roles/names, and you've already set the precedent for including characters from other mythos, why would you include such minor, pointless roles? It doesn't make any sense. ZDS is getting a pass because he claimed mason.(well, after Loran threw out the idea, ZDS ran with it, which is inconsistent with his statement that he 'was just nameclaiming'..if such was the case, he wouldn't suggested that we could figure out his role, nor would he have confirmed it immediately after Loran suggested that). ZDS claim stinks, but he's getting the benefit of the doubt anyway. If he'd claimed that rolename with any other role, I highly suspect we'd be bantering idly now while waiting for the lynch vote to be cast. I'm fine with not lynching ZDS today, because this situation is likely to work itself out later..but I was pressed for why I don't believe him, and I've answered.
I don't recall myself commenting on it not being believable because it's the not from the Matrix, but it's good of you to put words in my mouth that way. I'm not taking the Cheshire Cat part of the claim into consideration, because you can't really.
@atlseal: Does it say why your role was included? My role PM is fairly clear on this, and it seems to me that other non-matrix roles would be the same.
No, Cheshire Cat is not one of the non-Matrix roles that I'm aware of. In fairness, there's no reason I would be, as I'm only aware of my role and a role that is directly related to mine.
Again, as I said already, I am not trying to doubt the validity of the rolename 'Cheshire Cat'. There is no reasonable way to do so, though as I said, it would be good to know the flavor of *why* his role is in the game(mine exists for a very specific reason, as does the other role that I'm aware of, and I'd say it stands to reason that any non-matrix roles that were added also have flavor explaining why they are there).
The problems I have with the claim are the JoAT role, which is extremely difficult to confirm, and the fact that, as I explained, the -2 to lynch aspect of his role makes no sense whatsoever.
@Loran: I find it strange that you're essentially calling me out for being suspicious of dubious claims. Especially while you're *upgrading* your vote on atlseal at the same time.
@Grakthis: I'll respond to the rest of your points after things with atlseal are resolved. As a quick response to one of them, I wouldn't say I've 'flip-flopped' on alot of my votes. I'm still suspicious of the same people now as I have been all game, the list has simply grown from a couple of people to 5 people.
Also, someone being a mason doesn't automatically make them some kind of liability to the mafia. It makes them a confirmed role, which means that the town can trust that they don't have a hidden agenda. But everything else is variable. Sure, if they're a good analyst, that helps the town. And if they're not, it's a hinderance to the town. There is no guarantee that their 'value increases each day'. It can, but there is no guarantee of it doing so. If anything, the fact that such a mason was forced to claim on Day 1 speaks against the likelihood of them being really useful later.
It's also worth noting that, if atlseal is telling the truth about his role, then he is also a huge endgame liability. It's awfully hard to believe that the town has a ton of these roles that can completely doom the town if one mafioso survives to the endgame. Now, if the 5 person endgame is zds/atlseal/mason/unknown character/mafia, all the mafia has to do is lynch either of the masons before atlseal has a chance to post. Atlseal gets modkilled and the mafia wins with their NK. It seems fairly unlikely that a mod of such esteem as Azrael would allow such a situation to happen.
Knowing for certain that non-matrix characters exist, it's hard for me to doubt the validity of other non-matrix claims. As I said, I would like him to expound on it and give us the flavor as to WHY his role is in the game, but I don't see how it would make sense for me to automatically doubt the validity of his role.
Also, LJustus last post makes me extremely uneasy. The last time he made such a post was in Verona Mafia, where he was scum and he said almost exactly the same thing(he even used me as the example to get on the wagon) while we were lynching someone from another scum group. It really feels like he is setting me up to take the fall, there.
@Axel: Your intuition that I am a non-matrix character is correct. The non-matrix character whose role is relevant to mine is town beyond a shadow of a doubt. But again, we're not masons, the relationship is different. It's likely that this person doesn't know that my role exists, in fact.
@Loran: There is no danger in someone faking the role that is related to me or anything like that.
I also think that it's worth noting that alot of the suspicion towards me magically cropped up after I revealed that I have knowledge of non-matrix roles and a role other than my own. I've been the target of alot of wagons, and most of them I felt were justified. This isn't one of those. The wagon on me stinks of opportunism.
This post is both so forced and so scummy that it is just..silly. Seriously. Unvote, Vote Alx2
@Axel: I honestly don't understand what you're asking. I don't really see any need to give the name of the other role that I am aware of. If I'm ever killed, my role and ability will be revealed anyway. The role of the other person, in relation to mine, is very obvious. I can't really understand why you would want me to come forward with it at this time.
@AG: As far as I can tell, the people voting for me are Grak, FB, Vampyr, Hawkeye, ZDS, and Xyre. The only person to give any real reasoning behind voting me, from what I can tell, is Grak. I'm not really suspicious of most of them, but the lack of real evidence against me, with the exception of Grak's one post, certainly makes it hard for me to take them seriously. Specifically, I don't remember Hawkeye getting on my wagon, and certainly don't know why he did so. All ZDS and Xyre have said for awhile now is 'he is scum!' without ever providing any real reasoning to it. I remember Vampyr jumping on Grak's suspicion of me early, the entire context of which was 'I agree with Grak'. This being before I actually had a chance to even answer Grak's suspicion.
I see no benefit, to anyone, in revealing this information now. That's all. I can't say that it would necessarily be harmful, but I don't think it would be beneficial either.
@RafK: It is possible(though highly unlikely) that a 'counter' exists to my role. However, the relationship between my role and the other role I know of is so obvious that, if I die at some point before claiming and only my role is revealed, there is no way anyone will be able to take advantage of the information. People will literally see my role/name and say 'oh, the other role can only possibly be soandso', and they'll be right.
If 'no one doubts' that I think LJustus is scum, why are we having this conversation? I mistyped what I was trying to say.
And fine, here is my claim, just so people will leave me alone, and realize that I have a pro-town agenda.
I am T-800, the Model 101 Terminator. I am a Town Bodyguard, for John Connor, who was captured by the machines and inserted in the Matrix as the original 'One'. I do not have a physical body, I am only an essence that exists to protect Connor.
There are a couple of other aspects to my role, but it is in the best interest of the town that they go unstated, and I really don't see why it would be necessary for me to state them anyway.
Can we please look at any number of the opportunistic scum(LJustus, Xyre, etc) on my wagon now? Thanks.
I will also note that I'm positive I saw a post of Cyan's where Cyan says "100% positive of the other role being town." This would contradict Axel's (I believe, my apologies if I'm wrong) statement that Cyan claimed his own role is 100% town. Unforutnately, I can't find it at this point in time and I need to on my way out the door. I'll look for it tomorrow.
I don't know why I'm brining all this up, but it seemed like a good way to waste a couple of hours.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Soul Collector count: 184
PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
Matrix Mafia Town MVP
Medieval Mafia Mafia MVP
Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
What kind of loaded scummy question is that? There is no way I can justifiably answer that question, because obviously I don't know everything about the game. I know that my ability is not one that I have to activate, thus I don't see how I could be RBed. But I have no way of knowing whether or not someone has some 'this kill can't be prevented' clause or something.
Other than that, my PM stats expilicitly that any kill attempt on John Connor will be automatically redirected to me.
Fair enough (except for the word "scummy"...). So, here's what I think of the Cyan situation:
If he's lying, his claim virtually guarantees his demise sooner or later.
- If there's no John Connor in the game, he will be caught
- If John Connor dies to a random NK, he will be caught
- If he's a hitman-type of role, he's locked out of fulfilling his own condition.
- Last but not least, if Cyan is telling the truth, his chances to die to a random NK are doubled (he takes his own and JC's NKs).
Lynching, or even investigating Cyan at this point is pointless. Let's pack up this wagon and go somewhere else. I'll reread.
Yes, but the best course of action to what end? And only according to him. Are you suddenly so sure of LJ's intentions to automatically take him at his word and follow what he suggest?
If LJ is scum, he still dies. No problem.
If LJ is town, and he specifically told us to lynch him as the best course of action, then yes, I have a theory. But I am not saying it right now.
I'm 100% sure that John Connor is town because of flavor in my role PM.
Aside from that, it seems fairly logical that a town bodyguard wouldn't be there to protect a non-town role, especially not when I automatically protect him from all kill attempts.
In fairness, I did state that my role is 100% town, or something to that effect. I didn't take into consideration that people might think that I'm just making the role up, but, in my mind the role itself is 100% town.
The reason I believe that the best course of action is to lynch me today is to confirm one of the best analysts we have in the game. I'm willing to admit that both Cyan and Grakthis are excellent players. Both run circles around me in ferreting out the scums. One of these players - if confirmed - would be a great asset to the town.
Everytime you make that statement(this is what, the third of fourth time now) it increases my suspicion that you're just scum baiting us into some huge trap. Your stance just makes no sense.
This situation is causing me to have a conundrum fit. I feel like LJustus is scum with some kind of death triggered ability(he gets to commit a kill if lynched or something), which makes me not want to lynch him. But the whole situation itself makes me want to lynch him.
It all just seems so contrived that I can't imagine he is telling the truth. If we do decide to lynch him, which I think is the best option, I should be the lynch vote.
After reviewing and thinking about Cyan's claim, I'm left convinced that he must be telling the truth about being T-800. The only question is whether it's a scum role, which I don't think is the case (though his uncertainty about how his role works is a bit suspect).
Unvote Cyan. On the basis of his claim, I am willing to give him a pass right now. I still think he's been playing differently from his usual game. He's also made some forced arguments (though this is typical) and at times has ignored Mafia common sense. But some of the links between players that I saw earlier have vanished, so I no longer see this as a good play. However, it has at least generated discussion.
Given that I now think Cyan is town, one natural place to look at is the wagon; in particular, the middle part. Truthfully, that includes me, but it also includes Xyre, Hvir, and Hawkeye, all of whom deserve some degree of attention. Mostly Xyre and Hvir at this point.
Vote Hvir. I'd like to try bringing him out in the open and get him to start talking.
Re: LJustus - Let's put this aside and come back to it later in the day. If I'm correct in my thinking about how his role would work, it's best to lynch him today. As for who should be inspected, I'm inclined to suggest Raf, DYH, or Axel. Cyan is no longer an urgent target. Grak possibly, though I think that it's unnecessary - if he's town, he'll continue doing his job at bringing out reactions, and if he's scum, I happen to think his approach will leave more than enough evidence.
@Grak: You called the Werewolves 'legacy' programs. Where did you get that word? It's not a common phrase.
I"m not Grak, but the term "legacy" is a pretty common term in the IT field. When I was working at the phone company, I probably heard it several times per week.
@Axel: Good luck in getting that question answered. Cyan's already been adamant about not mentioning more about his role. As a side note, I think I saw Axel winning the award on ESPN for best bass fisherman.
Are you a bass, Cyan? You're so shrill sometimes, I always figured you for a tenor.:D
Alx 'proved' the Cyan is going to die later on anyway, so we shouldn't spend a Day 1 on him. Of course, his logic assumes that he isn't just trying to get past the first 3-4 days, like all scums do. Honestly, if we get to Day 4 without having lynched scum, the odds of us being able to narrow out the game will be greatly reduced, whether or not we lynch Cyan at that point.
I know Grak wants to argue this point, so I'll just preemptively say that scummy-looking scum shouldn't make plans to make it to the endgame. They should just deflect attacks until they can't convince the town to mislynch around them anymore. Cyan's claim (and atl's, for that matter) is a perfect example of this.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
@pod: I typically find you to be one of the best "townie-readers" in mafia games, and agree with your sentiments about LJustus and spoon. I'm pretty neutral on Alx just yet, though.
As far as HE7 goes, I've found him to be very good at reading people when town, and a chronic lurker as scum. You might want to check out some of his games on MTGNews. He's been rather active, so I haven't grown wary of him yet. I'm most curious, though, about what's drawing you to Xyre. I've been reading his reactions as much like 24 mafia where he was town. Care to elaborate on your feelings?
Anyway. While letting Cyan live is possible up to a certain point, he remains the prime investigation target for LJustus. He's been incredibly scummy, and having him both alive and unknown is not going to be very good.
Futhermore, the other propositions are mostly random.
I disagree. While knowing his alignment for sure would be nice, we gain less than if we checked one of the other analysts who have not yet established a claim and have a smaller posting record, such as Raf or DYH. Right now, Cyan has the most posts in this thread. With a semi-verifiable claim and that amount of talking, we should hopefully not need to use an investigation to be able to reasonably determine his alignment.
Like Grak says, we need to start cutting down trees. And I feel that inspecting Cyan instead of someone else would be missing out on a chance to cut down one more tree.
Cyan always talks this much. Fade, you should know that. I don't think that's any indication of his alignment at all. I also don't think we should let someone survive for even a few days if we think they're scummy. Vote Cyan
Cyan always talks this much. Fade, you should know that. I don't think that's any indication of his alignment at all.
What are you talking about? I never argued him talking a lot is an indication of his alignment - I said that it was a reason for having LJustus investigate someone else besides him.
I'm arguing that:
1) If we believe Cyan is lynch-worthy, then we lynch him.
2) If we instead lynch LJustus, then we should not be investigating Cyan and instead inspect someone else, thereby increasing our coverage.
Right now, I believe Cyan's claim of T-800. Thus, I don't believe he is lynch-worthy.
The logic wasn't written from "my" perspective, it was written from a generic perspective. The logic is either solid or it's not. If you disagree with 1073, tell me why. Don't tell me "1073 works for you but not for me", because it's nonsence.
DYH said that he was also from the Terminator series. The T-800 role is the single largest role in the entire Terminator mythos. Can we agree that Cyan could not have made up the claim completely? Or are you seriously arguing that he just got extremely lucky (1) someone else was actually in this game from the Terminator series and (2) that person - and no one else either - wasn't the main character that Cyan decided to fake being?
Fabricating the existance of a John Connor role would be extremely gutsy in a different way. What if there was a request for this non-existant role to come out? What then?
Perhaps, you say, he could have correctly predicted that everyone would immediately say that John Connor should NOT come out, thus preventing him from being exposed. Perhaps, but that is/was far from a sure thing.
And in any event, at a minimum, Cyan would be guaranteed to be exposed later in the game when the time comes for a mass claim of the remaining players - which virtually always happens. When no John Connor appears, Cyan is an easy lynch.
I had another thought which was the possibility that Cyan himself could be John Connor, but is scum (and faking being his own BG), but that really doesn't make sense. Why not claim John Connor straight up, which certainly sounds more townie? And any role that the town could have that could counter John Connor being town, would be equally able to counter this body-guard claim, so false claiming like this would not seem to do anything for him. Plus, it would still have the same problem of inevitible exposure.
A SK, by definition, needs to kill everyone in the game. A SK with the mission to kill John Conner in addition is redundant.
But wait, could he be a role that only needs to kill John Connor? Does that make any sense at all? What kind of poor role would that be anyway, Kill one and done? I refuse to believe that.
Could he be Mafia, but with a special side win condition of needing to kill John Connor? Again, this seems redundant. Mafia need to kill everyone else to win - unless you say that technically the mafia only need to get the game state into a position where their winning is inevitable, and technically they don't need to kill all the town (the final townies being "end-gamed" not counting) and therefore it might be possible fot the Mafia to "win" without eliminating the John Connor role, in which case this special Mafia role would still lose. I view that possibility also as highly unlikely and not worth a lot of time worrying about.
The only role that would seem even slightly possible would be some kind of Neutral role that needs to survive, and also needs the John Connor role dead. I suppose that's conceivable, but it still doesn't jibe with the presence of other Terminator roles in the game. It still seems like John Connor might have had an actual protector in that case, who could expose Cyan's lie easily enough. Certainly the risk of such a role being in existance should have given Cyan pause before making a claim like that.
Frankly, this whole chain of thought is not productive. It is highly unlikely if not outright impossible. Cyan would have had to have been gambling greatly, and also gotten very lucky. I simply do not believe he would have false-claimed that way. Certainly not with such bravado and confidence. It is my experience that, when one is going to false-claim, if one knows what one is doing, one gererally tries to hue as closely to the truth as possible. This false-claim would have represented Cyan closing his eyes and swinging for the trees.
I pretty much disagree with everything you say here.
I think it's extremely plausible to have a mafia member who is specifially told that John conner is in the game. Hellooooooo my role in Musical Mafia where I knew Roxie Hart was in the game and was told I wanted her to die?
I think it's not implausible for an SK to get the same thing. Helllooooooooo Findail in Revelstone mafia? Helloooooooo Vesuvan's Counte of Monte Cristo role in Gaslight?
I think it's plausible to have a neutral role who has a job to get 1 person killed. Hellooooooooooo whatever Lost MIsanthropes role in Pokemafia on ML?
so yeah... i disagree with all of THAT.
Quote from Cyan »
Hugely misinterprets my statement of having advanced knowledge. I hadn't said, at this point, that I had researched him. And in reality, I haven't, Grakthis is flattering himself(which is clearly a common theme in all of his posting) by stating it that way. As I said later, someone whose opinion I respect has a great deal of animosity towards Grak, and I read a couple of games he was in to see this for myself. That leads me into the next part:
I really hope I don't have to respond tot his for people to see how wrong it actually is.
"I did not research Grak in advance. I jsut read a bunch of games he was in."
Well, you sure showed me.
Quote from Cyan »
I disagree that your reputation goes beyond your attitude at all, first of all. You are much more convinced of your esteem than anyone else.
Ok? Even if that was all I was known for, it would still be enough to make scum overreact.
Quote from Cyan »
And beyond that, at this point, I hadn't said a single thing about your 'credibility', and certainly not in the statement that you referenced. I said that someone I know doesn't like you. That says absolutely nothing of your supposed 'credibility', it is simple a personal feeling. (Sidenote: This is another common theme of this PBPA..Grak playing up supposed aderversarial sentiments from me towards him. At the time that I wrote that, I Was feeling nothing of the sort).
Oh, so we should jsut take your word for it, right?
Like, when someone makes a post that seems defensive, all they have to do is say "I was not being defensive." And then everyone goes "oooooh! Ok then. You can go now."
That totally works. Keep that up and let me know how it works for you.
Quote from Cyan »
Also, as clearly evidenced by any game you've been in, especially this one, it is not only scum that react poorly to you. You bully people ridiculously, and lots of people react badly to that. Are some of them scum? Obviously. Just like plenty of them, like myself now, are town. Just because someone can't handle your attitude doesn't make them scum. That is absurd, but it is exactly what you are asserting here.
Then explain my hit rate? Explain why I've never lost a game as town where I lived past day 3 and only ONCE when i lived past day 2?
Quote from Cyan »
I didn't need to post my own opinion about ZDS, because I wasn't talking about ZDS. That doesn't even make sense. I also didn't need to link to/quote the post in question because it was within a few posts of my own. What I was referring to was obvious.
Except by not quoting it or linking it you make it ambigious so you can backtrack later. Which you are fond of doing.
And clearly, if It hought you were talking about ZDS, then it WASN'T obvious which post you were talking about!
Quote from Cyan »
I stated that I didn't agree with the bandwagon on Xyre. I then stated that, for such a bad wagon, he was reacting really poorly to it. That combined with similarities between how he was acting and how I acted as scum in Trek Mafia led me to vote him. If anything, the fact that I called out the wagon and voted him on something else makes me *more* accountable for my vote, not less so. Anyone can just join a bandwagon, then more or less avoid suspicion if that wagon collapses. I had my own reasons for voting him, which I clearly illustrated. Just because I didn't like his wagon doesn't mean that I can't find him scummy anyway.
Cyan: "I like red. Then again, I hate red. But I am going to choose red."
Everyone else: "I hate red."
Cyan: "Yeah... me too! You can tell, I said it up there."
But keep telling us how that makes you more accoutable.
Quote from Cyan »
You appear to have missed the point here. I pointed out an abnormality in how CP was acting. I also flatly stated that I'm not sure if it means anything. In the other post, I stated that I found it odd that he was defending someone so avidly, which is simply unusual for early in a game of mafia, and was particularly unsettled by this because, the last time he did so, he was scum. This is a valid point. He responded to this and I was satisfied with his response, hence I didn't bring it up again. Again, there was no need for me to provide reference here, as far as CP being overly aggressive. It was early in the game, and it was a general statement.
You referenced it multiple times ina way that left you plenty of room to vote based on it or backtrack based on it.
Which is exactly what I accuse you of.
Quote from Cyan »
So wait. In one instance, you're attacking me for not voting CP. Then you're attacking me for the same thing, except this time I voted someone. You can't have it both ways. Besides, what I accused Loran of, vs. what I accused CP of(if you can even call it that) are completely different. What Loran was doing was something that is scummy in and of itself. My unsureness regarding CP was essentially metagaming. So yes, I voted Loran for being scummy, but didn't vote CP because he wasn't really being scummy, he was just being alot different than usual. How terrible of me.
Yes I can. I can have it every way I want to.
If you make wishy washy arguments that let you backtrack and recant without being pinned down, it doesn't matter how you eventually vote.
The arguments are the issue.
Quote from Cyan »
It's not 'backpedaling', because I never indicated serious suspicion of CP to begin with. I made a couple of short comments, and that was it. You are hugely playing up my posts towards CP, just like you tried to play up my 'adversarial' comments towards you, when they were nothing of the sort. But then, by now, it is fairly obvious that your MO is blowing things out of proportion and hoping that people are too intimidated to fight back. Your recent post to atlseal is a great example of this. Atlseal clearly couldn't vote you, because he was already voting someone else. He indicated a desire to see you investigated, to which you responded by personally attacking him. How townish of you.
1) It is backpeddling. And you're doing it right now by claiming what you said before wasn't serious suspicion of CP. You're doing exactly what I accused you of preparing to do. Which pretty much confirms what I said.
2) I didn't personally attack anyone.
It seems to me that atleast 8 other people agree with me... so clearly I am not blowing things out of proportion.
Quote from Cyan »
I don't think that this bandwagon was iffy at all. And there was nothing more to be said. Axel's post was why I got on the wagon, and I stated exactly that. Once again, this is an example of me accepting accountability for my actions. How terrible of me, right.
I thought it was iffy,a nd since I am the one doing the analysis....
Quote from Cyan »
I didn't unvote him because I didn't believe him. Hell, I *still* don't really believe him. It seems to me that unvoting someone while stating disbelief of their claim is much more scummy than sticking to your guns about it.
Depends on circumstances. In this circumstance, it was scummier to stick to your guns. because I had just called you out for flip-flopping.
Quote from Cyan »
I was intentionally vague here, because I don't want to bring attention to the person that I was talking to. I also wanted to illustrate that it was not because of anything ZDS himself said or did. Even now, I don't want to focus too much attention on this, because I don't think it is in the best interest of the town to do so. I just wanted to give some explanation as to what I was thinking at the time.
Oh... so being intentionally vague makes your flip-flopping and backpeddlign OK?
Quote from Cyan »
I wasn't referring to DYH when I said this. If you read any of the posts near mine(it's called reading statements 'in context') it's obvious who I was talking to. I didn't want DYH to think I was calling him out when I wasn't..makes sense to me. And also, I don't see where you get that DYH wants to know who I was talking about. DYH said he would try to tone it down, and I clarified my statement that I didn't mean him in the first place. It's pretty cut and dry. I didn't backtrack from anything, I *clarified*.
So, if twice now I haven't understood who you were talking to/about, then maybe you have an issue with quoting and linking that you need to resolve to make it clearer?
Because clearly, it WASN'T obvious who you were talking to.
And you did backtrack. But we can let everyone else decide for themselves... you know, rather than take my word for it.
Quote from Cyan »
This question is now sufficiently answered. And also, in retrospect, nice attempt, on your part, at fishing for my role information.
Cyan.... it's not fishing if I want you to die. It's me telling you I think you're scum.
Is it fishing to ask you to roleclaim at 9 votes?
Quote from Cyan »
And yes, I continued to doubt ZDS. So? For someone that has repeatedly called me out, in this very 'PBPA' of not citing sources, you're doing a fine job of exactly the same thing yourself here.
Uh... what? I quoted everything I referenced.
Quote from Cyan »
And I clarified that I wasn't a mason because A)I didn't want Alx to read the game from a false perspective and B)I felt like he was attempting to trap me into a claim that I wasn't making. Once again, I was clarifying something.
When your clarification is significantly different from your previous statement, that's called backtracking.
Quote from Cyan »
I still don't really get where people are deciding when this game takes place. All it says is it's the Matrix version 2.0. That really doesn't indicate when the storyline occurs. IIRC, whenever 'The One' reaches the Architect, there is always a period of temporary peace before trouble starts again. Maybe I'm misremembering that.
IT SAYS THAT IT TAKES PLACE AFTER THE PEACE BETWEEN BETWEEN THE MACHINES AND THE HUMANS! THE PEACE MADE BETWEEN THE TWO SIDES. AFTER THE TRILOGY.
Did the caps help you understand it better?
Quote from Cyan »
I would say that me saying 'I don't like ZDS rolename, claimed ability, or play thus far this game' is a committed attack on him, thus nullifying whatever point you're trying to make here.
Meanwhile, you continue to not vote him and not want to lynch him.
Quote from Cyan »
This is hardly what I would qualify as 'discussion'. Senseless bickering, regardless of whom is involved, benefits the town none, and the mafia plenty. So you're right, I don't want people to fight for no reason, as such is just doing a disservice to the town.
ALL discussion benefits the town.
Your "response" to my PBPA might as well have been "Nuh uh... your face!"
You didn't respond to anything. You just said "No U :mad:"
Well, how about this: Vote: Cyan
Quote from LJ »
The reason I believe that the best course of action is to lynch me today is to confirm one of the best analysts we have in the game. I'm willing to admit that both Cyan and Grakthis are excellent players. Both run circles around me in ferreting out the scums. One of these players - if confirmed - would be a great asset to the town.
Word.
For God's sake... if we lynch you... do NOT investigate Cyan. Investigate me, or Axelrod or maybe Hawkeye. Cyan is a dead man one way or another.
Quote from Pod »
@Grak: You called the Werewolves 'legacy' programs. Where did you get that word? It's not a common phrase.
I'm a programmer, nublet. Like, IRL. That's what i do. That's what you call old versions of code.
Yep. Let's flip a coin or two, and decide which "analyst" to investigate based upon the result.
Seriously, investigating a scummy player (be it Cyan or someone else) is a far superior option to investigating a player with a good reputation, "just to be sure".
I would agree with investigating Cyan if it weren't for the claim. His T-800 claim ties him down, and we have plenty of him on record - so we have the possibility of later checking this claim *without* wasting an investigation. Using an investigation on him is fairly redundant.
Anyone who believes that Cyan is scummy enough to warrant investigation despite the T-800 claim should realistically be advocating his lynch, not an inspection. I don't really see any middle ground there.
Also, I'm all for investigating someone scummy rather than just choosing an analyst, but from what I understand, LJustus' ability lets the town ask the question - I'm not sure how that works, but it seems like we all would need to come to some agreement. If there's another candidate for consensus, then I'd like to hear it.
Ummm cyan is getting too close to lynch for my liking. Im gonna look at hvir......when he posted i didnt think he was too scummy, but maybe yall are seeing something i missed.
@Mod-Votecount please?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Mafia MVP Harry Potter Mafia!
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
I pretty much disagree with everything you say here.
I think it's extremely plausible to have a mafia member who is specifially told that John conner is in the game. Hellooooooo my role in Musical Mafia where I knew Roxie Hart was in the game and was told I wanted her to die?
Are you making a point here?
I never said that there couldn't be a Mafia role that "knew" of the existance of a town role. I said there couldn't be a Mafia member with a specific requirement that he kill a certain town role on top of the regular Mafia win condition. And you did not have a specific requirement that Roxie Hart be dead in that game, so what are you even talking about?
I think it's not implausible for an SK to get the same thing. Helllooooooooo Findail in Revelstone mafia? Helloooooooo Vesuvan's Counte of Monte Cristo role in Gaslight?
I still don't even understand your point. I am not saying I don't think he could have information about a townie role and not also be town.
Your SK role in Revelstone did not have the specific win condition of killing Vain. What are you saying, man?
I think it's plausible to have a neutral role who has a job to get 1 person killed. Hellooooooooooo whatever Lost MIsanthropes role in Pokemafia on ML?
Pokemafia? ML? You lose credibility for even citing a game over there, but that aside, I also said in the freaking post you quoted that if there was any possibility that made some kind of sense it would be Neutral that needed to kill a specific role. Not just kill that person and then win, because that would be stupid, but kill that person along with whatever other win condition they have.
And, of course, the problem here being that if you think that's what's going on here with Cyan - that he secretly needs to kill this role he just claimed he was automatic BG for - then he's kind of screwed, isn't he? If his target randomly dies, he's exposed. And how exactly could he stop that? What would make you claim BG if that was your actual win condition?
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Yes, all discussion benefits the town. But mafia will use this to their advantage by fooling us and leading us on the wrong track. The more we talk, the more they're likely to talk. A scum always end doing the smallest mistake that will reveal him as mafia. However, through 1000+ posts, it is more unlikely that we'll spot those mistakes. Just wanted to point this out. Vote stands on Cyan ; and I think that if LJ dies, he should not pick a big name player, but a target we actually have just about no guess on. Someone who isn't going to be voted for, nor NK'd.
I really hope I don't have to respond tot his for people to see how wrong it actually is.
"I did not research Grak in advance. I jsut read a bunch of games he was in."
Well, you sure showed me.
Way to misinterpret what I said *again*. My point was that, when I made that post, I had not given any indication that I had researched you. You jumped to this conclusion for no reason, presumably other than to make yourself look good. And it means nothing anyway. I notice that you have conveniently stopped mentioning how I was trying to 'attack your credibility', since that clearly holds no water.
Ok? Even if that was all I was known for, it would still be enough to make scum overreact.
This is erronous logic, just like it was last time. You are asserting that every person who overreacts to you is scum. That is a silly notion. Just because someone doesn't like you and unfortunately lets you get under their skin doesn't magically make them scum somehow, obviously.
Oh, so we should jsut take your word for it, right?
Like, when someone makes a post that seems defensive, all they have to do is say "I was not being defensive." And then everyone goes "oooooh! Ok then. You can go now."
That totally works. Keep that up and let me know how it works for you.
Take my word for what? There is no logical way to come to the conclusion that I was 'attacking your credibility'. That is simply what you want to think, because it benefits you. And indeed, you are apparently the only one that somehow decided this. I would say that makes it likely that you're in the wrong.
Then explain my hit rate? Explain why I've never lost a game as town where I lived past day 3 and only ONCE when i lived past day 2?
This means nothing, it is just more of your self-aggrandizing. The fact that you claim to be good at 'finding scum' doesn't automatically mean that every person you attack is scum, obviously. I've only lost a couple of games where I lived past Day 2 as town. That proves absolutely nothing, because you(nor myself) are not singlehandedly responsible for deciding the outcome of the game. Everyone whom is alive is.
Except by not quoting it or linking it you make it ambigious so you can backtrack later. Which you are fond of doing.
You have provided one person that I theoretically 'backtracked' on, and I have explained multiple times how it wasn't backtracking because I never suggested any real suspicion of him to begin with. No votes, etc. I noted a couple of posts, and you are playing that up greatly to serve your own purpose.
And clearly, if It hought you were talking about ZDS, then it WASN'T obvious which post you were talking about!
This might be valid, if not for one problem. You're the only person that brought it up. Even after you mentioned it specifically in the first PBPA, no one came along and said 'hey that's a good point'. It seems clear to me that, in general, people understood who I was referencing. If you didn't, I don't know what to tell you. Certainly, expecting me to alter how I post because *you* have trouble making inferences doesn't make alot of sense.
Cyan: "I like red. Then again, I hate red. But I am going to choose red."
Everyone else: "I hate red."
Cyan: "Yeah... me too! You can tell, I said it up there."
But keep telling us how that makes you more accoutable.
Once again, you're misrepresenting me. I stated, initially and in my response to you, which is clear if you just read the words themselves, that while I wasn't a fan of the wagon on Xyre, I was suspicious of him for my own reasons. I even went so far as to *list those reasons*. Are you really saying that it's impossible to find someone scummy, while disagreeing with reasons that other people are voting him? That doesn't really make alot of sense. And I already explained how it makes me more accountable. I voted him, and did so for specifically stated reasons. I don't see how a person can be any MORE accountable than that.
You referenced it multiple times ina way that left you plenty of room to vote based on it or backtrack based on it.
Which is exactly what I accuse you of.
Except that, when I made the statements, I myself said that I wasn't sure if it actually meant anything. I was pointing it out in case it became important later. I'm not sure what you're not getting here.
Yes I can. I can have it every way I want to.
If you make wishy washy arguments that let you backtrack and recant without being pinned down, it doesn't matter how you eventually vote.
The arguments are the issue.
No, you really can't. In one sentence, you're attacking me for not doing something. In the next, you're attacking me for doing what you attacked me for not doing in the first sentence. This is called a 'double standard'. Furthermore, I have explained *why* I voted Loran and not CP already, in a logical fashion.
1) It is backpeddling. And you're doing it right now by claiming what you said before wasn't serious suspicion of CP. You're doing exactly what I accused you of preparing to do. Which pretty much confirms what I said.
No, I'm not, because I maintained that I wasn't seriously suspicious of CP the entire time. This is ridiculous. Did I ever say 'I'm seriously suspicious of CP?'. No, I didn't. But I've said that multiple other times this game(including against Loran, which you are trying to hold against me). It doesn't make alot of sense that I would 'try to backpedal alot' with CP but not with anyone else. You're accusing me of 'backpedaling' in an instance where I was never of the stance that you're initially charging. It can't be backpedaling because, again, I was never that suspicious of him.
2) I didn't personally attack anyone.
You said that LJustus is 'not clever enough to pull this gambit'. You also, essentially, called atlseal a coward. Those are personal attacks, and serve only to make the person look weaker, thus making your own position appear stronger.
It seems to me that atleast 8 other people agree with me... so clearly I am not blowing things out of proportion.
Please. The only person that is voting me based on your analysis, from what I can read, is Vampyr. Hawkeye voted me because I didn't respond to your analysis after saying I would, I don't recall him ever saying whether or not he agreed with the analysis itself.
I thought it was iffy,a nd since I am the one doing the analysis....
So what you're saying is, because you think it is iffy, that automatically makes people guilty? Also, if the wagon was iffy, why didn't you even *mention* the other people on it. Are they all clean, and magically I'm the only person scummy for getting on the wagon in that fashion, when many people did the same thing? This doesn't work for multiple reasons. For one thing, you are trying to assert your opinion as fact. If you're wrong about the wagon being 'iffy', and clearly many people didn't think it was, as indicated by the amount of people that joined the wagon, there is nothing for you to attack me for in the first place. And attacking me while giving everyone else a pass is hugely inconsistent. You never mentioned that wagon being 'iffy' in regards to anyone else on it.
Depends on circumstances. In this circumstance, it was scummier to stick to your guns. because I had just called you out for flip-flopping.
Right. It would have been much better to flip-flop again, right? Once again, you are clearly trying to put a double-standard to me. If I hadn't stuck to my guns, you would just say it was one more example of me flip-flopping. Sticking to my guns makes me accountable for my position.
Oh... so being intentionally vague makes your flip-flopping and backpeddlign OK?
How about you provide some other examples of me flip-flopping, because one instance of me doing it is not 'flip-flopping', it is me changing my mind based upon new information. Someone else's posts in regards to ZDS made me reconsider my position. I don't want to be more specific about it because, if I'm right about that person, it puts them needlessly in jeopardy, and it seems to be something that people in general didn't notice. It's not that hard to understand.
So, if twice now I haven't understood who you were talking to/about, then maybe you have an issue with quoting and linking that you need to resolve to make it clearer?
Because clearly, it WASN'T obvious who you were talking to.
And you did backtrack. But we can let everyone else decide for themselves... you know, rather than take my word for it.
Again, you are apparently the only person that didn't realize who I was talking to, since you're the only one that brought it up. Asserting that there is something wrong with my posting style(and you're not even explaining why it is wrong, at that) because YOU AND ONLY YOU don't get it is silly.
Cyan.... it's not fishing if I want you to die. It's me telling you I think you're scum.
Is it fishing to ask you to roleclaim at 9 votes?
It is easy enough to assert that you think a person is scum without obviously trying to dig out information about their role. And I was nowhere near 9 votes at the time, so I fail to see how that is valid.
Uh... what? I quoted everything I referenced.
No, you didn't. Go read it again.
When your clarification is significantly different from your previous statement, that's called backtracking.
Do you even realize what you're referencing here? I never claimed mason and was never trying to claim mason. I clarified this because alx came to a wrong conclusion and posted it. Are you saying that it would be better to allow him to keep thinking I was a mason when clearly I wasn't? Then you'd be accusing me of leading him on. Double-standards again.
IT SAYS THAT IT TAKES PLACE AFTER THE PEACE BETWEEN BETWEEN THE MACHINES AND THE HUMANS! THE PEACE MADE BETWEEN THE TWO SIDES. AFTER THE TRILOGY.
Did the caps help you understand it better?
Please illustrate where it says 'after the trilogy' anywhere. It is possible that this was the intention and I misunderstood it, but that's all it was. A misunderstanding.
Meanwhile, you continue to not vote him and not want to lynch him.
Voting him is a waste of time now. The town has made it clear that he's not going to be lynched today. Continuing to attack him would only serve as a distraction. I might think one thing, but I recognize that the rest of the town doesn't agree, and that beating a dead horse isn't going to help anyone.
ALL discussion benefits the town.
This is a huge generalization, and is wholly untrue. If I thought I knew who the Cop was(example purposes only, I am not claiming this), would discussing it to any good for the town? No, it wouldn't. If anything, it would be harmful to the town, because A)I could be right and that would put needless pressure on him or B)I could be wrong but the real Cop could give himself away in saying so. The statement that 'all discussion is good for the town' could not possibly be less true. Particularly, in a case where it is just two people bickering about things that don't matter.
Your "response" to my PBPA might as well have been "Nuh uh... your face!"
You didn't respond to anything. You just said "No U :mad:"
Well, how about this: Vote: Cyan
You were already voting me, by the way. I'm not sure what that is supposed to mean.
Furthermore, I responded to everything you said, and certainly didn't just say 'Nuh uh your face'..whatever that means. The things that I *did* accuse you of are completely seperate of any accusations you made against me. And even then, I only accused you of anything to the point of using it to illustrate how invalid your PBPA(and this response) were. Hell, I flat-out stated at the end that I don't think you're scum. How does that track with me only saying 'No, You'? Doesn't make alot of sense.
For God's sake... if we lynch you... do NOT investigate Cyan. Investigate me, or Axelrod or maybe Hawkeye. Cyan is a dead man one way or another.
He already stated that the town will choose who gets investigated. Maybe you should pay more attention.
Anyway, I basically said that precedent points to you being town, and that I think roleplaying is fairly useless as a tell despite that precedent. I didn't think that was especially hard to get, but whatever. I'm leaning toward you being a townie, while at the same time complaining that you aren't contributing much, focussing instead on making comments that are not designed to be understood or be of any use.
I think it's kinda fun that you say that I'm fence-sitting, though. I was accused of fence-sitting once before, by CC, I think. I challenged him on it and he went back and, you know, actually looked at my posts, and he changed his mind. I anticipate that if you do the same thing, you'll get the same result, because I'm pretty sure I haven't been fence-sitting on any issue that's been brought up. Your call, though.
Deep?
Somebody help me!, I'm being allusive!
Actually, I thought I was being ridiculously obvious.
Thanks, I very glad to see that I have, apparently, over estimated the powers of observation of some.
There are, in fact, ways Cyan can be scum. It is possible that the John Connor role doesn't exist. It's also conceivable Cyan is some kind of scum with the special agenda of killing John Connor.
I'm only saying where my most recent thoughts have led me.
If I was going to guess what type of post you would make if you wanted to discuss Cyan’s claim and the possibilities it posed, this would be close to it.
I certainly did not think that you had not thought through the other possibilities. I was very curious as to why you did not even mention that they existed. By only presented the limited number of possibilites that you did, you could have been directing the readers of your post to focus on only those and, possibly, overlook others. Perhaps I’m just reading too much into not seeing something I would have thought I would see in you first post.
Axe, fade and CP, if you were to look at Cyan’s posts and filter out his claim, what is your opinion of his play this game? What if you filtered out that it was Cyan who acted and reacted as he has?
Please. The only person that is voting me based on your analysis, from what I can read, is Vampyr. Hawkeye voted me because I didn't respond to your analysis after saying I would, I don't recall him ever saying whether or not he agreed with the analysis itself.
This is wrong. I have stated on at least three occations directly, and possibly four occations, that there are points of Graks case that I did find credible and agreed with. That, and the fact that you refused to address his case after you originally said that you would, as well as other things are the reason that I am voting for you.
Frankly, the fact that you have either over looked this part of those posts I made or are intentionally misrepresenting my reasons for voting you makes me think my vote is well placed. You made such a big deal about finally decding to address Grak and that by doing so it would hopefully get me off your back, and then you come out and say something so misleading like this?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
RELAPSED MAFIA JUNKIE
W – 33, L – 19, Broke Games - 9
Calvin & Hobbs Mafia, Mafia MVP
X-Men Mafia Town MVP
Simpson's Mafia - best use of character
Mtgnews Mafia Mafia - Town Madman
Mythos Mafia: the Dunwich Massacre Town MVP
English Literature Mafia Town MVP
Best Role-Playing Sin City Mafia
Werewolf Mafia - Mafia MVP
Doctor Mafia - Mafia MVP
Mafia: Escape from the Cylons - Town MVP
Lost Mafia - Co SK Winner with Kops
Random Mafia 3 - Town MVP
You initially voted me for no reason. The you unvoted in a hurry when called on it. Then later you voted me again because I didn't respond to the PBPA when I said I would. I don't recall you saying that you agreed with the PBPA itself.
But fine, you agree(d) with it. With which parts? Do you still agree with them now? If so, why? If not, why not?
Also, what you're asking Axel doesn't make sense. Why would he list a bunch of 'possibilities' that he said are highly improbable, if not impossible? Presumably, he didn't list them because there is no gain in doing so, particularly since he stated that they might not actually be possible in the first place. Pretty simple. It looks to me like you're grasping at straws here.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
DYH said that he was also from the Terminator series. The T-800 role is the single largest role in the entire Terminator mythos. Can we agree that Cyan could not have made up the claim completely? Or are you seriously arguing that he just got extremely lucky (1) someone else was actually in this game from the Terminator series and (2) that person - and no one else either - wasn't the main character that Cyan decided to fake being?
Fabricating the existance of a John Connor role would be extremely gutsy in a different way. What if there was a request for this non-existant role to come out? What then?
Perhaps, you say, he could have correctly predicted that everyone would immediately say that John Connor should NOT come out, thus preventing him from being exposed. Perhaps, but that is/was far from a sure thing.
And in any event, at a minimum, Cyan would be guaranteed to be exposed later in the game when the time comes for a mass claim of the remaining players - which virtually always happens. When no John Connor appears, Cyan is an easy lynch.
I had another thought which was the possibility that Cyan himself could be John Connor, but is scum (and faking being his own BG), but that really doesn't make sense. Why not claim John Connor straight up, which certainly sounds more townie? And any role that the town could have that could counter John Connor being town, would be equally able to counter this body-guard claim, so false claiming like this would not seem to do anything for him. Plus, it would still have the same problem of inevitible exposure.
A SK, by definition, needs to kill everyone in the game. A SK with the mission to kill John Conner in addition is redundant.
But wait, could he be a role that only needs to kill John Connor? Does that make any sense at all? What kind of poor role would that be anyway, Kill one and done? I refuse to believe that.
Could he be Mafia, but with a special side win condition of needing to kill John Connor? Again, this seems redundant. Mafia need to kill everyone else to win - unless you say that technically the mafia only need to get the game state into a position where their winning is inevitable, and technically they don't need to kill all the town (the final townies being "end-gamed" not counting) and therefore it might be possible fot the Mafia to "win" without eliminating the John Connor role, in which case this special Mafia role would still lose. I view that possibility also as highly unlikely and not worth a lot of time worrying about.
The only role that would seem even slightly possible would be some kind of Neutral role that needs to survive, and also needs the John Connor role dead. I suppose that's conceivable, but it still doesn't jibe with the presence of other Terminator roles in the game. It still seems like John Connor might have had an actual protector in that case, who could expose Cyan's lie easily enough. Certainly the risk of such a role being in existance should have given Cyan pause before making a claim like that.
Frankly, this whole chain of thought is not productive. It is highly unlikely if not outright impossible. Cyan would have had to have been gambling greatly, and also gotten very lucky. I simply do not believe he would have false-claimed that way. Certainly not with such bravado and confidence. It is my experience that, when one is going to false-claim, if one knows what one is doing, one gererally tries to hue as closely to the truth as possible. This false-claim would have represented Cyan closing his eyes and swinging for the trees.
Why would you assume that because I do not lay out my entire thought process leading up to a conclusion that I have not actually thought about it?
There are, in fact, ways Cyan can be scum. It is possible that the John Connor role doesn't exist. It's also conceivable Cyan is some kind of scum with the special agenda of killing John Connor.
I'm only saying where my most recent thoughts have led me.
9 Cyan-Grakthis, Vampyr, Fadeblue, Xyre, Hvir, Hawkeye, Spoon, J-Effe IV, Carrion Pigeons
1 Hvirfilvindr- Axelrod
5 LJustus- Sutherlands, Abbey, Atlseal, ZDS, Dagger
1 Loran16- Athos
1 xyre- Pod
6 Not Voting- Rafaelk, Loran16, DYH, Ljustus, Alx2, Cyan,
23 alive, 12 to lynch.
Hugely misinterprets my statement of having advanced knowledge. I hadn't said, at this point, that I had researched him. And in reality, I haven't, Grakthis is flattering himself(which is clearly a common theme in all of his posting) by stating it that way. As I said later, someone whose opinion I respect has a great deal of animosity towards Grak, and I read a couple of games he was in to see this for myself. That leads me into the next part:
I disagree that your reputation goes beyond your attitude at all, first of all. You are much more convinced of your esteem than anyone else.
And beyond that, at this point, I hadn't said a single thing about your 'credibility', and certainly not in the statement that you referenced. I said that someone I know doesn't like you. That says absolutely nothing of your supposed 'credibility', it is simple a personal feeling. (Sidenote: This is another common theme of this PBPA..Grak playing up supposed aderversarial sentiments from me towards him. At the time that I wrote that, I Was feeling nothing of the sort).
Also, as clearly evidenced by any game you've been in, especially this one, it is not only scum that react poorly to you. You bully people ridiculously, and lots of people react badly to that. Are some of them scum? Obviously. Just like plenty of them, like myself now, are town. Just because someone can't handle your attitude doesn't make them scum. That is absurd, but it is exactly what you are asserting here.
I didn't need to post my own opinion about ZDS, because I wasn't talking about ZDS. That doesn't even make sense. I also didn't need to link to/quote the post in question because it was within a few posts of my own. What I was referring to was obvious.
I stated that I didn't agree with the bandwagon on Xyre. I then stated that, for such a bad wagon, he was reacting really poorly to it. That combined with similarities between how he was acting and how I acted as scum in Trek Mafia led me to vote him. If anything, the fact that I called out the wagon and voted him on something else makes me *more* accountable for my vote, not less so. Anyone can just join a bandwagon, then more or less avoid suspicion if that wagon collapses. I had my own reasons for voting him, which I clearly illustrated. Just because I didn't like his wagon doesn't mean that I can't find him scummy anyway.
You appear to have missed the point here. I pointed out an abnormality in how CP was acting. I also flatly stated that I'm not sure if it means anything. In the other post, I stated that I found it odd that he was defending someone so avidly, which is simply unusual for early in a game of mafia, and was particularly unsettled by this because, the last time he did so, he was scum. This is a valid point. He responded to this and I was satisfied with his response, hence I didn't bring it up again. Again, there was no need for me to provide reference here, as far as CP being overly aggressive. It was early in the game, and it was a general statement.
So wait. In one instance, you're attacking me for not voting CP. Then you're attacking me for the same thing, except this time I voted someone. You can't have it both ways. Besides, what I accused Loran of, vs. what I accused CP of(if you can even call it that) are completely different. What Loran was doing was something that is scummy in and of itself. My unsureness regarding CP was essentially metagaming. So yes, I voted Loran for being scummy, but didn't vote CP because he wasn't really being scummy, he was just being alot different than usual. How terrible of me.
It's not 'backpedaling', because I never indicated serious suspicion of CP to begin with. I made a couple of short comments, and that was it. You are hugely playing up my posts towards CP, just like you tried to play up my 'adversarial' comments towards you, when they were nothing of the sort. But then, by now, it is fairly obvious that your MO is blowing things out of proportion and hoping that people are too intimidated to fight back. Your recent post to atlseal is a great example of this. Atlseal clearly couldn't vote you, because he was already voting someone else. He indicated a desire to see you investigated, to which you responded by personally attacking him. How townish of you.
I don't think that this bandwagon was iffy at all. And there was nothing more to be said. Axel's post was why I got on the wagon, and I stated exactly that. Once again, this is an example of me accepting accountability for my actions. How terrible of me, right.
I didn't unvote him because I didn't believe him. Hell, I *still* don't really believe him. It seems to me that unvoting someone while stating disbelief of their claim is much more scummy than sticking to your guns about it.
I was intentionally vague here, because I don't want to bring attention to the person that I was talking to. I also wanted to illustrate that it was not because of anything ZDS himself said or did. Even now, I don't want to focus too much attention on this, because I don't think it is in the best interest of the town to do so. I just wanted to give some explanation as to what I was thinking at the time.
I wasn't referring to DYH when I said this. If you read any of the posts near mine(it's called reading statements 'in context') it's obvious who I was talking to. I didn't want DYH to think I was calling him out when I wasn't..makes sense to me. And also, I don't see where you get that DYH wants to know who I was talking about. DYH said he would try to tone it down, and I clarified my statement that I didn't mean him in the first place. It's pretty cut and dry. I didn't backtrack from anything, I *clarified*.
This question is now sufficiently answered. And also, in retrospect, nice attempt, on your part, at fishing for my role information.
And yes, I continued to doubt ZDS. So? For someone that has repeatedly called me out, in this very 'PBPA' of not citing sources, you're doing a fine job of exactly the same thing yourself here.
And I clarified that I wasn't a mason because A)I didn't want Alx to read the game from a false perspective and B)I felt like he was attempting to trap me into a claim that I wasn't making. Once again, I was clarifying something.
I still don't really get where people are deciding when this game takes place. All it says is it's the Matrix version 2.0. That really doesn't indicate when the storyline occurs. IIRC, whenever 'The One' reaches the Architect, there is always a period of temporary peace before trouble starts again. Maybe I'm misremembering that.
I would say that me saying 'I don't like ZDS rolename, claimed ability, or play thus far this game' is a committed attack on him, thus nullifying whatever point you're trying to make here.
See above.
This is hardly what I would qualify as 'discussion'. Senseless bickering, regardless of whom is involved, benefits the town none, and the mafia plenty. So you're right, I don't want people to fight for no reason, as such is just doing a disservice to the town.
I've already responded to the bit about masons surviving to the endgame and why ZDS role, as claimed, makes no sense.
To clarify something, I am still on the fence about the -2 to lynch thing, but if it does exist, it's fairly inconceivable that it is all town or all scum that suffer from it. If forced to choose between ZDS and atlseal, I am much more comfortable thinking ZDS is town than atlseal. Even though I don't like ZDS claim, or behavior, I like it better than atlseals, greatly.
I will say that, after reading this PBPA, I don't really think that Grak is scum. He is acting scummy, towards LJustus, towards atlseal, towards myself. But his actions towards ZDS in this don't really make sense from a scum perspective.
@LJustus: That doesn't mean anything. What kind of 'hitlist' would a T800 (or even a T1000 or TX) have anyway? They always have one specific goal. There is no real basis to that insinuation on your part, and is just one more example of scummy behavior by you. Particularly the 'just saying' part, where you clearly try to attack me, while trying to play it down at the same time. If you have something to say, at least be accountable for it.
But one will be dead, which kind of defeats the purpose.
I'm still struggling with the idea of lynching someone I believe is townie, tbh, even for the gain of an investigation.
I believe (due to DYH backing Cyan on this point) that we have Terminator characters in this game. It doesn't surprise me anyway, given the TMNT group in Sin City.
The flavour arguments are all stupid. Casey Jones was scum in Sin City, and my but it helped me that I had such good flavour! Let's not make the mistake that that town made, hmm?
Flavour doesn't make the T800 a bad bodyguard, flavour doesn't make the T800 a guaranteed townie, flavour doesn't even make John Connor a guaranteed townie.
Note to DYH: Can you support not only that Terminator characters are in game, but that your flavour would support John Connor being town?
Cyan's argument based on the mod is crap. He could be making it up. Azrael's not about to confirm or deny it. It's no different to lying about your role PM, which scum of course do all the time.
Axelrod's incredibly non-committal "analysis" was a bit suspicious.
cp's, in spite of his lack of faith in me (which I find disturbing ;)) was better, and I think cp has been helping squash this stupid flavour stuff, which is good. Someone has to.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
To be fair, that wasn't "analysis" as such, but more of a positioning post.
Um, yeah. And obviously I meant explain it in the context of the claim Cyan has made (you remmeber, Terminator, T800, Bodyguard to a specific role, other Terminator roles appearing in the game, etc) and explain how he "fakes" that without extremely high risk of getting caught? Have you actually thought it through?
I rather think I already did that. Oh, look, I did
Were you paying attention?
Hvir has a grand total of three more posts since I made that post.
I think I have some ideas of who you could be now if you are telling the truth.
The more I think about things, the more I think that Cyan might be the better lynch for today rather than LJustus. LJustus' claimed role becomes much more game-breaking the later that we wait. In addition to that, it clears up quite a bit about John Connor and how Az could be using Terminator in the mythos.
http://www.scifiscripts.com/scripts/TheTerminator_5th-Draft.txt
http://www.scifiscripts.com/scripts/t2.txt
If I remember correctly, he said that he knew that the 2 non-Matrix roles existed, but not who had them.
But if John Connor is one of them, then who is the other, and how does that role matter to Cyan? That bothers me. I think LJustus is on to something with the hitlist thing.
Also, will be gone until Sunday.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Ummm... T-800 + John Conner = 2 non-matrix roles
And fireballs. Proven true oh so many times over the years.
As for Cyan's claim, I have a hard time buying it, primarily on the basis that it's such a narrowly useful role. A bodyguard for one person. What happens if you're RB'ed and Connor dies. Your ability does nothing for the town now and your usefulness is relegated to your analysis ability, which, while good, can only go so far.
If your primary ability is as you claim, then all I can say is you got saddled with a role that is very uninspiring and on the surface too weak for me to buy into.
I also don't like the fact that Cyan calls out Grak for his "emotional attack" on LJ yesterday and then procedes to use "emotional attacks" on Grak when Cyan answers Grak's PBPA (or reasonable facsimile of such).
My vote stays on Cyan.
I'm still in favor of looking at atlseal as a secondary choice for a lynch. I don't buy the JoaT as a true power role and as such, I don't feel that Grak's "leave him for X many days" should be considered. His abilities are all one shot, at least that's how I understood them to be and if we do leave him alive, it's too easy to use the excuse of I was RB'ed. Sure, if we have a watcher/tracker, whichever works to find out if he does something, that person can keep an eye on atl. But relying on 'ifs' to hope that things to occur to confirm people is too dicey. I'm still of the mind that the chance of atl being scum is not worth the risk of him sowing seeds of doubt now and the scum reaping the rewards later as the town wastes investigations and/or lynches on people atl "cleared."
As for the LJ gambit. Right now I'd be willing to let him live, at least till atlseal is dealt with one way or the other. LJ claims he has something that makes him unattractive to being NK'ed. So the scum are not likely to mess with him. Leaving LJ hang around for a few more game days and seeing what sort of interesting things besides coconuts fall out of the coconut tree when you shake it up. That way his investigative ability could be more useful than a 1 in 22 shot.
PPE:
@Axel: Good luck in getting that question answered. Cyan's already been adamant about not mentioning more about his role. As a side note, I think I saw Axel winning the award on ESPN for best bass fisherman.
@Xyre: I believe said he knew 2 non-matrix roles but nothing more. I will go back and find the post for confirmation.
PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
Matrix Mafia Town MVP
Medieval Mafia Mafia MVP
Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
By two confirmed roles, I meant Cyan himself and John Connor. If Cyan is townie, then conceivably he is speaking the truth about his bodyguard duty. Why would a town be given the duty to protect a scum?
LJ also claimed that he truly believed lynching him is the best course of action to be taken.
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
This is one of the aspects of my role that I wanted to keep hidden, because the town would have been alot better off if the mafia didn't know it if John Connor is ever outed. I have one other ability that I *really* don't want the scum to know, but if it comes down to getting lynched or revealing it, I'll just reveal it.
I have PMed Azrael to ask if I am a traditional BG with the additional stipulation that I would always protect John Connor if he is targeted, or, if John Connor is the only person I can protect. My role PM isn't really that clear on this. I'll post when he answers.
Other than that, my PM stats expilicitly that any kill attempt on John Connor will be automatically redirected to me.
Also, I asked Azrael what would happen if I have to protect John Connor in a night where I also target someone else(assuming that I work as a regular bodyguard). This is actually the reason that I don't think I work as a regular BG..you can't really be in two places at once. We'll see what he says.
Huh? Cyan specifically stated that kills to Connor are redirected to him. It's not "both", it's "instead". I merely want a confirmation of this.
Yes, but the best course of action to what end? And only according to him. Are you suddenly so sure of LJ's intentions to automatically take him at his word and follow what he suggest?
I'm not against lynching him...just not today. If he does have the ability he states he has and and the ability he implies he has, then there's no way the scum are going to off him. I think LJ's best place for today for sure, and possibly tomorrow, pending the death toll over night, is alive and on the sidelines. Once people are cut down, if he does have this investigative ability, better targets can then be evaluated and then investigated.
This is twice now that you've come out to discredit something I've said. You now have my attention.
As for Cyan posts about non-matrix roles, here they are, up to and including his claim. Anything more recent than that someone else can look it up:
I will also note that I'm positive I saw a post of Cyan's where Cyan says "100% positive of the other role being town." This would contradict Axel's (I believe, my apologies if I'm wrong) statement that Cyan claimed his own role is 100% town. Unforutnately, I can't find it at this point in time and I need to on my way out the door. I'll look for it tomorrow.
I don't know why I'm brining all this up, but it seemed like a good way to waste a couple of hours.
PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
Matrix Mafia Town MVP
Medieval Mafia Mafia MVP
Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
Fair enough (except for the word "scummy"...). So, here's what I think of the Cyan situation:
If he's lying, his claim virtually guarantees his demise sooner or later.
- If there's no John Connor in the game, he will be caught
- If John Connor dies to a random NK, he will be caught
- If he's a hitman-type of role, he's locked out of fulfilling his own condition.
- Last but not least, if Cyan is telling the truth, his chances to die to a random NK are doubled (he takes his own and JC's NKs).
Lynching, or even investigating Cyan at this point is pointless. Let's pack up this wagon and go somewhere else. I'll reread.
If LJ is scum, he still dies. No problem.
If LJ is town, and he specifically told us to lynch him as the best course of action, then yes, I have a theory. But I am not saying it right now.
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
I'm 100% sure that John Connor is town because of flavor in my role PM.
Aside from that, it seems fairly logical that a town bodyguard wouldn't be there to protect a non-town role, especially not when I automatically protect him from all kill attempts.
In fairness, I did state that my role is 100% town, or something to that effect. I didn't take into consideration that people might think that I'm just making the role up, but, in my mind the role itself is 100% town.
Word.
This situation is causing me to have a conundrum fit. I feel like LJustus is scum with some kind of death triggered ability(he gets to commit a kill if lynched or something), which makes me not want to lynch him. But the whole situation itself makes me want to lynch him.
It all just seems so contrived that I can't imagine he is telling the truth. If we do decide to lynch him, which I think is the best option, I should be the lynch vote.
If we do lynch him after all, I prefer Hawkeye7 or DYH, now that Cyan is not on the agenda.
Unvote Cyan. On the basis of his claim, I am willing to give him a pass right now. I still think he's been playing differently from his usual game. He's also made some forced arguments (though this is typical) and at times has ignored Mafia common sense. But some of the links between players that I saw earlier have vanished, so I no longer see this as a good play. However, it has at least generated discussion.
Given that I now think Cyan is town, one natural place to look at is the wagon; in particular, the middle part. Truthfully, that includes me, but it also includes Xyre, Hvir, and Hawkeye, all of whom deserve some degree of attention. Mostly Xyre and Hvir at this point.
Vote Hvir. I'd like to try bringing him out in the open and get him to start talking.
Re: LJustus - Let's put this aside and come back to it later in the day. If I'm correct in my thinking about how his role would work, it's best to lynch him today. As for who should be inspected, I'm inclined to suggest Raf, DYH, or Axel. Cyan is no longer an urgent target. Grak possibly, though I think that it's unnecessary - if he's town, he'll continue doing his job at bringing out reactions, and if he's scum, I happen to think his approach will leave more than enough evidence.
I"m not Grak, but the term "legacy" is a pretty common term in the IT field. When I was working at the phone company, I probably heard it several times per week.
Since the impeccable logic of post 1073.
Let's not go too far on LJ before deciding on a target.
Are you a bass, Cyan? You're so shrill sometimes, I always figured you for a tenor.:D
Alx 'proved' the Cyan is going to die later on anyway, so we shouldn't spend a Day 1 on him. Of course, his logic assumes that he isn't just trying to get past the first 3-4 days, like all scums do. Honestly, if we get to Day 4 without having lynched scum, the odds of us being able to narrow out the game will be greatly reduced, whether or not we lynch Cyan at that point.
I know Grak wants to argue this point, so I'll just preemptively say that scummy-looking scum shouldn't make plans to make it to the endgame. They should just deflect attacks until they can't convince the town to mislynch around them anymore. Cyan's claim (and atl's, for that matter) is a perfect example of this.
Mafia MVP BM Mafia
Mafia MVP Matrix Mafia
@pod: I typically find you to be one of the best "townie-readers" in mafia games, and agree with your sentiments about LJustus and spoon. I'm pretty neutral on Alx just yet, though.
As far as HE7 goes, I've found him to be very good at reading people when town, and a chronic lurker as scum. You might want to check out some of his games on MTGNews. He's been rather active, so I haven't grown wary of him yet. I'm most curious, though, about what's drawing you to Xyre. I've been reading his reactions as much like 24 mafia where he was town. Care to elaborate on your feelings?
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
I disagree. While knowing his alignment for sure would be nice, we gain less than if we checked one of the other analysts who have not yet established a claim and have a smaller posting record, such as Raf or DYH. Right now, Cyan has the most posts in this thread. With a semi-verifiable claim and that amount of talking, we should hopefully not need to use an investigation to be able to reasonably determine his alignment.
Like Grak says, we need to start cutting down trees. And I feel that inspecting Cyan instead of someone else would be missing out on a chance to cut down one more tree.
9 Cyan-Grakthis, Vampyr, Xyre, Hvir, Hawkeye, J-Effe IV, Carrion Pigeons, Abbey, Sutherlands
2 Hvirfilvindr- Axelrod, Fadeblue
4 LJustus-Atlseal, ZDS, Dagger, Spoon
1 Loran16- Athos
1 xyre- Pod
Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
America == Velociraptor
Play IRC mafia. (/join #mafia)
What are you talking about? I never argued him talking a lot is an indication of his alignment - I said that it was a reason for having LJustus investigate someone else besides him.
I'm arguing that:
1) If we believe Cyan is lynch-worthy, then we lynch him.
2) If we instead lynch LJustus, then we should not be investigating Cyan and instead inspect someone else, thereby increasing our coverage.
Right now, I believe Cyan's claim of T-800. Thus, I don't believe he is lynch-worthy.
The logic wasn't written from "my" perspective, it was written from a generic perspective. The logic is either solid or it's not. If you disagree with 1073, tell me why. Don't tell me "1073 works for you but not for me", because it's nonsence.
I pretty much disagree with everything you say here.
I think it's extremely plausible to have a mafia member who is specifially told that John conner is in the game. Hellooooooo my role in Musical Mafia where I knew Roxie Hart was in the game and was told I wanted her to die?
I think it's not implausible for an SK to get the same thing. Helllooooooooo Findail in Revelstone mafia? Helloooooooo Vesuvan's Counte of Monte Cristo role in Gaslight?
I think it's plausible to have a neutral role who has a job to get 1 person killed. Hellooooooooooo whatever Lost MIsanthropes role in Pokemafia on ML?
so yeah... i disagree with all of THAT.
I really hope I don't have to respond tot his for people to see how wrong it actually is.
"I did not research Grak in advance. I jsut read a bunch of games he was in."
Well, you sure showed me.
Ok? Even if that was all I was known for, it would still be enough to make scum overreact.
Oh, so we should jsut take your word for it, right?
Like, when someone makes a post that seems defensive, all they have to do is say "I was not being defensive." And then everyone goes "oooooh! Ok then. You can go now."
That totally works. Keep that up and let me know how it works for you.
Then explain my hit rate? Explain why I've never lost a game as town where I lived past day 3 and only ONCE when i lived past day 2?
Except by not quoting it or linking it you make it ambigious so you can backtrack later. Which you are fond of doing.
And clearly, if It hought you were talking about ZDS, then it WASN'T obvious which post you were talking about!
Cyan: "I like red. Then again, I hate red. But I am going to choose red."
Everyone else: "I hate red."
Cyan: "Yeah... me too! You can tell, I said it up there."
But keep telling us how that makes you more accoutable.
You referenced it multiple times ina way that left you plenty of room to vote based on it or backtrack based on it.
Which is exactly what I accuse you of.
Yes I can. I can have it every way I want to.
If you make wishy washy arguments that let you backtrack and recant without being pinned down, it doesn't matter how you eventually vote.
The arguments are the issue.
1) It is backpeddling. And you're doing it right now by claiming what you said before wasn't serious suspicion of CP. You're doing exactly what I accused you of preparing to do. Which pretty much confirms what I said.
2) I didn't personally attack anyone.
It seems to me that atleast 8 other people agree with me... so clearly I am not blowing things out of proportion.
I thought it was iffy,a nd since I am the one doing the analysis....
Depends on circumstances. In this circumstance, it was scummier to stick to your guns. because I had just called you out for flip-flopping.
Oh... so being intentionally vague makes your flip-flopping and backpeddlign OK?
So, if twice now I haven't understood who you were talking to/about, then maybe you have an issue with quoting and linking that you need to resolve to make it clearer?
Because clearly, it WASN'T obvious who you were talking to.
And you did backtrack. But we can let everyone else decide for themselves... you know, rather than take my word for it.
Cyan.... it's not fishing if I want you to die. It's me telling you I think you're scum.
Is it fishing to ask you to roleclaim at 9 votes?
Uh... what? I quoted everything I referenced.
When your clarification is significantly different from your previous statement, that's called backtracking.
IT SAYS THAT IT TAKES PLACE AFTER THE PEACE BETWEEN BETWEEN THE MACHINES AND THE HUMANS! THE PEACE MADE BETWEEN THE TWO SIDES. AFTER THE TRILOGY.
Did the caps help you understand it better?
Meanwhile, you continue to not vote him and not want to lynch him.
ALL discussion benefits the town.
Your "response" to my PBPA might as well have been "Nuh uh... your face!"
You didn't respond to anything. You just said "No U :mad:"
Well, how about this: Vote: Cyan
For God's sake... if we lynch you... do NOT investigate Cyan. Investigate me, or Axelrod or maybe Hawkeye. Cyan is a dead man one way or another.
I'm a programmer, nublet. Like, IRL. That's what i do. That's what you call old versions of code.
I would agree with investigating Cyan if it weren't for the claim. His T-800 claim ties him down, and we have plenty of him on record - so we have the possibility of later checking this claim *without* wasting an investigation. Using an investigation on him is fairly redundant.
Anyone who believes that Cyan is scummy enough to warrant investigation despite the T-800 claim should realistically be advocating his lynch, not an inspection. I don't really see any middle ground there.
Also, I'm all for investigating someone scummy rather than just choosing an analyst, but from what I understand, LJustus' ability lets the town ask the question - I'm not sure how that works, but it seems like we all would need to come to some agreement. If there's another candidate for consensus, then I'd like to hear it.
@Mod-Votecount please?
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Are you making a point here?
I never said that there couldn't be a Mafia role that "knew" of the existance of a town role. I said there couldn't be a Mafia member with a specific requirement that he kill a certain town role on top of the regular Mafia win condition. And you did not have a specific requirement that Roxie Hart be dead in that game, so what are you even talking about?
I still don't even understand your point. I am not saying I don't think he could have information about a townie role and not also be town.
Your SK role in Revelstone did not have the specific win condition of killing Vain. What are you saying, man?
Pokemafia? ML? You lose credibility for even citing a game over there, but that aside, I also said in the freaking post you quoted that if there was any possibility that made some kind of sense it would be Neutral that needed to kill a specific role. Not just kill that person and then win, because that would be stupid, but kill that person along with whatever other win condition they have.
And, of course, the problem here being that if you think that's what's going on here with Cyan - that he secretly needs to kill this role he just claimed he was automatic BG for - then he's kind of screwed, isn't he? If his target randomly dies, he's exposed. And how exactly could he stop that? What would make you claim BG if that was your actual win condition?
I don't think you even understood what I said.
This is erronous logic, just like it was last time. You are asserting that every person who overreacts to you is scum. That is a silly notion. Just because someone doesn't like you and unfortunately lets you get under their skin doesn't magically make them scum somehow, obviously.
Take my word for what? There is no logical way to come to the conclusion that I was 'attacking your credibility'. That is simply what you want to think, because it benefits you. And indeed, you are apparently the only one that somehow decided this. I would say that makes it likely that you're in the wrong.
This means nothing, it is just more of your self-aggrandizing. The fact that you claim to be good at 'finding scum' doesn't automatically mean that every person you attack is scum, obviously. I've only lost a couple of games where I lived past Day 2 as town. That proves absolutely nothing, because you(nor myself) are not singlehandedly responsible for deciding the outcome of the game. Everyone whom is alive is.
You have provided one person that I theoretically 'backtracked' on, and I have explained multiple times how it wasn't backtracking because I never suggested any real suspicion of him to begin with. No votes, etc. I noted a couple of posts, and you are playing that up greatly to serve your own purpose.
This might be valid, if not for one problem. You're the only person that brought it up. Even after you mentioned it specifically in the first PBPA, no one came along and said 'hey that's a good point'. It seems clear to me that, in general, people understood who I was referencing. If you didn't, I don't know what to tell you. Certainly, expecting me to alter how I post because *you* have trouble making inferences doesn't make alot of sense.
Once again, you're misrepresenting me. I stated, initially and in my response to you, which is clear if you just read the words themselves, that while I wasn't a fan of the wagon on Xyre, I was suspicious of him for my own reasons. I even went so far as to *list those reasons*. Are you really saying that it's impossible to find someone scummy, while disagreeing with reasons that other people are voting him? That doesn't really make alot of sense. And I already explained how it makes me more accountable. I voted him, and did so for specifically stated reasons. I don't see how a person can be any MORE accountable than that.
Except that, when I made the statements, I myself said that I wasn't sure if it actually meant anything. I was pointing it out in case it became important later. I'm not sure what you're not getting here.
No, you really can't. In one sentence, you're attacking me for not doing something. In the next, you're attacking me for doing what you attacked me for not doing in the first sentence. This is called a 'double standard'. Furthermore, I have explained *why* I voted Loran and not CP already, in a logical fashion.
No, I'm not, because I maintained that I wasn't seriously suspicious of CP the entire time. This is ridiculous. Did I ever say 'I'm seriously suspicious of CP?'. No, I didn't. But I've said that multiple other times this game(including against Loran, which you are trying to hold against me). It doesn't make alot of sense that I would 'try to backpedal alot' with CP but not with anyone else. You're accusing me of 'backpedaling' in an instance where I was never of the stance that you're initially charging. It can't be backpedaling because, again, I was never that suspicious of him.
You said that LJustus is 'not clever enough to pull this gambit'. You also, essentially, called atlseal a coward. Those are personal attacks, and serve only to make the person look weaker, thus making your own position appear stronger.
Please. The only person that is voting me based on your analysis, from what I can read, is Vampyr. Hawkeye voted me because I didn't respond to your analysis after saying I would, I don't recall him ever saying whether or not he agreed with the analysis itself.
So what you're saying is, because you think it is iffy, that automatically makes people guilty? Also, if the wagon was iffy, why didn't you even *mention* the other people on it. Are they all clean, and magically I'm the only person scummy for getting on the wagon in that fashion, when many people did the same thing? This doesn't work for multiple reasons. For one thing, you are trying to assert your opinion as fact. If you're wrong about the wagon being 'iffy', and clearly many people didn't think it was, as indicated by the amount of people that joined the wagon, there is nothing for you to attack me for in the first place. And attacking me while giving everyone else a pass is hugely inconsistent. You never mentioned that wagon being 'iffy' in regards to anyone else on it.
Right. It would have been much better to flip-flop again, right? Once again, you are clearly trying to put a double-standard to me. If I hadn't stuck to my guns, you would just say it was one more example of me flip-flopping. Sticking to my guns makes me accountable for my position.
How about you provide some other examples of me flip-flopping, because one instance of me doing it is not 'flip-flopping', it is me changing my mind based upon new information. Someone else's posts in regards to ZDS made me reconsider my position. I don't want to be more specific about it because, if I'm right about that person, it puts them needlessly in jeopardy, and it seems to be something that people in general didn't notice. It's not that hard to understand.
Again, you are apparently the only person that didn't realize who I was talking to, since you're the only one that brought it up. Asserting that there is something wrong with my posting style(and you're not even explaining why it is wrong, at that) because YOU AND ONLY YOU don't get it is silly.
It is easy enough to assert that you think a person is scum without obviously trying to dig out information about their role. And I was nowhere near 9 votes at the time, so I fail to see how that is valid.
No, you didn't. Go read it again.
Do you even realize what you're referencing here? I never claimed mason and was never trying to claim mason. I clarified this because alx came to a wrong conclusion and posted it. Are you saying that it would be better to allow him to keep thinking I was a mason when clearly I wasn't? Then you'd be accusing me of leading him on. Double-standards again.
Please illustrate where it says 'after the trilogy' anywhere. It is possible that this was the intention and I misunderstood it, but that's all it was. A misunderstanding.
Voting him is a waste of time now. The town has made it clear that he's not going to be lynched today. Continuing to attack him would only serve as a distraction. I might think one thing, but I recognize that the rest of the town doesn't agree, and that beating a dead horse isn't going to help anyone.
This is a huge generalization, and is wholly untrue. If I thought I knew who the Cop was(example purposes only, I am not claiming this), would discussing it to any good for the town? No, it wouldn't. If anything, it would be harmful to the town, because A)I could be right and that would put needless pressure on him or B)I could be wrong but the real Cop could give himself away in saying so. The statement that 'all discussion is good for the town' could not possibly be less true. Particularly, in a case where it is just two people bickering about things that don't matter.
You were already voting me, by the way. I'm not sure what that is supposed to mean.
Furthermore, I responded to everything you said, and certainly didn't just say 'Nuh uh your face'..whatever that means. The things that I *did* accuse you of are completely seperate of any accusations you made against me. And even then, I only accused you of anything to the point of using it to illustrate how invalid your PBPA(and this response) were. Hell, I flat-out stated at the end that I don't think you're scum. How does that track with me only saying 'No, You'? Doesn't make alot of sense.
He already stated that the town will choose who gets investigated. Maybe you should pay more attention.
I still have my eye on you.
Deep?
Somebody help me!, I'm being allusive!
Actually, I thought I was being ridiculously obvious.
Thanks, I very glad to see that I have, apparently, over estimated the powers of observation of some.
If I was going to guess what type of post you would make if you wanted to discuss Cyan’s claim and the possibilities it posed, this would be close to it.
I certainly did not think that you had not thought through the other possibilities. I was very curious as to why you did not even mention that they existed. By only presented the limited number of possibilites that you did, you could have been directing the readers of your post to focus on only those and, possibly, overlook others. Perhaps I’m just reading too much into not seeing something I would have thought I would see in you first post.
Axe, fade and CP, if you were to look at Cyan’s posts and filter out his claim, what is your opinion of his play this game? What if you filtered out that it was Cyan who acted and reacted as he has?
This is wrong. I have stated on at least three occations directly, and possibly four occations, that there are points of Graks case that I did find credible and agreed with. That, and the fact that you refused to address his case after you originally said that you would, as well as other things are the reason that I am voting for you.
Frankly, the fact that you have either over looked this part of those posts I made or are intentionally misrepresenting my reasons for voting you makes me think my vote is well placed. You made such a big deal about finally decding to address Grak and that by doing so it would hopefully get me off your back, and then you come out and say something so misleading like this?
Calvin & Hobbs Mafia, Mafia MVP
X-Men Mafia Town MVP
Simpson's Mafia - best use of character
Mtgnews Mafia Mafia - Town Madman
Mythos Mafia: the Dunwich Massacre Town MVP
English Literature Mafia Town MVP
Best Role-Playing Sin City Mafia
Werewolf Mafia - Mafia MVP
Doctor Mafia - Mafia MVP
Mafia: Escape from the Cylons - Town MVP
Lost Mafia - Co SK Winner with Kops
Random Mafia 3 - Town MVP
But fine, you agree(d) with it. With which parts? Do you still agree with them now? If so, why? If not, why not?
Also, what you're asking Axel doesn't make sense. Why would he list a bunch of 'possibilities' that he said are highly improbable, if not impossible? Presumably, he didn't list them because there is no gain in doing so, particularly since he stated that they might not actually be possible in the first place. Pretty simple. It looks to me like you're grasping at straws here.