MTG Salvation

Hi, I am really sorry for not posting... but school just started and it is hell. However it is labor day weekend, so I have time off... yayz! I still believe that bate/hc are scum. However, something fishy seems to be going on here between bate/az, and I think the best way to resolve it would be bate claiming. And to show that, Unvote, Vote Bate

Quote from Hunted Charlie

Finish making his play? I think that was his play.

How can you seriously say that when he's already posted again since I made that remark precisely to test his theory?

Bateleur, did you, or did you not, target Azrael in some manner last night?

That question is too general, I refuse to answer it literally since that constitutes fishing on your part. I will, however, answer the relevant part of the question: no, I did not attack Azrael last night.

Well, it sounds like he knows that you did it.

I didn't take that implication from what he posted. Why did you?

I'm not expecting a suicide strike anyway. The two possibilities I consider plausible are either:

A) Nobody did anything to him last night, he's the one whose attack he is describing in an effort to look cleared when he starts doing whatever it is (role stealing?) to everyone else.

B) Someone did do something to him last night and his investigations are exactly as they seem to be, with no trickery involved.

Quote from creampuffeater

something fishy seems to be going on here between bate/az, and I think the best way to resolve it would be bate claiming. And to show that, Unvote, Vote Bate

Bad CPE! No pressure voting required. I've said I'll claim if the majority request it.

Quote from arimnaes

1 RafaelK - bateleur

Unvote Bateleur.

Quote from creampuffeater

Hi, I am really sorry for not posting... but school just started and it is hell. However it is labor day weekend, so I have time off... yayz! I still believe that bate/hc are scum. However, something fishy seems to be going on here between bate/az, and I think the best way to resolve it would be bate claiming. And to show that, Unvote, Vote Bate

Vote: CPE

:weird2::eek::grin3::sick:

:-/:aww::eek::rolleyes2::muh:

:sick::uhh::rolleyes::eek::rofl:

What was that about, Az?

chamber is also being prodded.

Quote from ZeDorkSlipeur »

Did you target Azrael in some way last night ?

I refer the honourable gentleman to my previous answer:

Quote from bateleur

That question is too general, I refuse to answer it literally since that constitutes fishing on your part. I will, however, answer the relevant part of the question: no, I did not attack Azrael last night.

Further to which, I advise the town to be very careful about pushing for information you don't strictly need. In keeping with my usual policy I will reveal anything which a majority of players asks me to reveal. However, note that there are only eight players alive apart from me. Think carefully about what you ask for, because it could take as few as two townies making bad calls for the scum to achieve the required five.

Unvote

Quote from Xyre

What was that about, Az?

Quote from bateleur »

he thought - the idea that whatever happened to him last night was my fault.

Quote from ZeDorkSlipeur

[quote : CPE voting Bateleur]
Vote : CPE
WANT
CLAIM
TODAY

——> CPE wants a claim today from Bateleur.

Vote: CPE

WANT
CLAIM
TODAY

Az, if there's a stolen double vote around:

1) bat unvoted before he voted, so it doesn't really show anything; and
2) Wouldn't you want us to ALL "test" our votes?

I don't get why you're suddenly off bat again, basically, and I disapproved of being led around by the nose. The deadline was only extended so far.

Quote from RafaelK

Az, if there's a stolen double vote around:

:-/:confused::-/

1) bat unvoted before he voted, so it doesn't really show anything; and

Quote from rafaelk »

2) Wouldn't you want us to ALL "test" our votes?

Quote from rafaelk »

I don't get why you're suddenly off bat again, basically,

Azrael is a nine year old girl

Quote from bateleur »

Correct tense please Mr Raf. CPE will have deserved it.

Quote from bateleur »

Correct tense please Mr Raf.

Quote from Azrael

Quote from bateleur »

Correct tense please, Mr Raf.

Vote: Vote Count.

Unvote, Vote: Bateleur, Vote Bateleur :evil:.

Quote from azrael »

,

Quote from bateleur »

Correct tense please Mr Raf. CPE will have deserved it.

Quote from xyre »

BAT SHOULD VOTE FOR RAF
BAT COPIED MY ABILITY I THINK

Quote from arimnaes »

1 RafaelK - bateleur

Quote from azrael »

unvote

Quote from bateleur

How can you seriously say that when he's already posted again since I made that remark precisely to test his theory?

Since you made which remark? His last post before this post I'm quoting was the one where he revealed his theory.

Quote from bateleur

That question is too general, I refuse to answer it literally since that constitutes fishing on your part. I will, however, answer the relevant part of the question: no, I did not attack Azrael last night.

Well, it misses a bit of its functionality that way. If you targeted him with something, even if it was an attack, it could have been mistaken as an attack. If you didn't, then either Azrael's lying or rather ill-informed.

Quote from bateleur

I didn't take that implication from what he posted. Why did you?

Because he said, "Bateleur did this", and I don't think he'd just say that unless he had some hard evidence saying Bateleur did that. Or if he's a lying scum.

@Azrael: Can't you just use normal smilies instead of bizarre ones? I mean, we all know means good and means bad, but what does mean? You are a small, poor, crippled boy who will teach Bateleur a lesson?

Quote from Hunted Charlie

Since you made which remark?

The one you quoted, obviously.

Well, it misses a bit of its functionality that way.

Yes, agreed. But by this point I think Azrael's made himself pretty clear and I see no evidence that he was trying anything dodgy.

Because he said, "Bateleur did this"

In text, I might agree with you. However, the poor man's having to type in smilies, so I think he can be excused for wording things as briefly as possible. It's not like he has no way to clarify if we turn out to have the wrong idea.

Quote from ZeDorkSlipeur

Bate, there are several people in favor of a full claim from you, so I think you can reveal if you've used an ability on Az

Almost a majority is not almost as good as a majority. The motive behind insisting on a majority is so that the Mafia cannot push through actions which are not pro-town.

Let me put it this way: I'm not worried about Azrael. That should tell you the only thing that I think ought to be public at this point.

That was a blatant attempt to imply "I'm a cop, back off" without actually committing to it, in gigantic letters. I don't like that at all- if you were really a cop, why would you wave that like a flag? In that situation, the town (including the town doc) doesn't know whether to trust you- but the scum do. It's also totally at odds with your line about not wanting to claim without a majority to do so.

And for the record, congratulations that you aren't worried about Azrael. I don't think anyone was suggesting you are.

Quote from RafaelK

I don't think anyone was suggesting you are.

Implicitly they were, because "Let's check if Azrael was lying about you targeting him" is liable to be followed by frownies if it turns out he was.

Post 827 pretty much rejected my fears, so I'll Vote bateleur again.

Quote from ZeDorkSlipeur

So as a result, you claim an investigation on him ?

This has to stop right now.

I have not claimed the capacity to investigate, nor have I even confirmed that I have a targetting role. You are fishing. Even worse, you are helping RafaelK to fish. DO NOT FISH!

Perhaps you're finding it too hard to fight your instinct to apply pressure against resistance? Stop and think, because you're making a mess here and pretty soon I am going to be forced to reveal more than I should have to if you keep it up.

Quote from bateleur

This has to stop right now.

I have not claimed the capacity to investigate, nor have I even confirmed that I have a targetting role. You are fishing. Even worse, you are helping RafaelK to fish. DO NOT FISH!

Perhaps you're finding it too hard to fight your instinct to apply pressure against resistance? Stop and think, because you're making a mess here and pretty soon I am going to be forced to reveal more than I should have to if you keep it up.

Why does this sound to me like a player who's trying to shift blame to avoid giving up the ghost? The more you act defensive about your role, the more I feel there's something you're not letting on.

I can see how you might have taken it that way, but: no - whether I know his alignment or not I have not made an announcement either way and nor was it my intention to imply as much.

I'm not worried about him in the sense that I do not consider he was trying to frame me or enact some other kind of shady plan. I retain the ambient background level of suspicion regarding him that applies to all other players in the game.

Quote from ZeDorkSlipeur

Assuming Azrael means he knows or suspects you have done something to him last night, or are related in some way to something which happened to him last night, can you confirm or deny he is right ?

Yes, I have enough information to confirm or deny whether he is right.

I choose not to do so until such as time as either this is mandated, or Azrael changes my current perception of the situation by asserting as definitely true something about my action or lack thereof which I know to be untrue.

Quote from bateleur

Yes, I have enough information to confirm or deny whether he is right.

I choose not to do so until such as time as either this is mandated, or Azrael changes my current perception of the situation by asserting as definitely true something about my action or lack thereof which I know to be untrue.

I'm confused. The most obvious answer to ZDS' question (which is basically "Did you target Azrael?") would be "Yes, I targeted him", not "Yes, I have information to support or reject what he's saying". This doesn't really answer the question, nor does it help the town.

I think you're distorting things to avoid having to reveal your intentions. FOS Bateleur

Quote from bateleur

I neither support not oppose an extension.

Vote: AlphaInsidious

If you still want to claim to be town, bat, you might want to explain why you didn't support extending the deadline. And, for that matter, made a vote on Alpha without explanation at the same time (since the only two wagons at that point were Xyre and Hunted Charlie, so voting Alpha like that didn't help reach any kind of lynch before deadline).

Quote from RafaelK

If you still want to claim to be town, bat, you might want to explain why you didn't support extending the deadline.

Oh, stop trolling!

I made it very clear I didn't oppose a deadline extension, so stop implying otherwise. I abstained because I personally have no use for the extra time.

And, for that matter, made a vote on Alpha without explanation at the same time.

I sowwy I confused your poor little brain. Fortunately Alpha knew immediately exactly what I meant.

Quote from bateleur

Oh, stop trolling!

I made it very clear I didn't oppose a deadline extension, so stop implying otherwise. I abstained because I personally have no use for the extra time.

Oh, come on. Anything that wasn't a vote FOR extending the deadline was effectively a vote against extending the deadline. And a vote against extending the deadline would have been really indefensible, so you couldn't do that.

Why did you have no use for the extra time? With 24 hours to deadline and the lynch not decided?

"Trolling", pfft. I take it back- bat under high pressure isn't 100% unflappable, it just takes a long time to get him to flap

Quote from RafaelK

Oh, come on. Anything that wasn't a vote FOR extending the deadline was effectively a vote against extending the deadline.

So had the voting ended two for, one abstain and one against, that would result in...?

Why did you have no use for the extra time? With 24 hours to deadline and the lynch not decided?

Xyre would have been lynched. I'm happy with that.

I take it back- bat under high pressure isn't 100% unflappable, it just takes a long time to get him to flap

Either that or you're starting to realise that characterising your target as a model of composure under fire isn't actually a good idea. Which it isn't, but I didn't like to point it out at the time ;). It may seem similar to the old Greek technique of characterising your opponent as cleverer than you, but actually not so. Clever people are distrusted by the listener since "cleverness" is presumed (wrongly) to entail manipulation and evasion of the facts. By contrast, composure is seen as a virtue in a debate because it's interpreted as a signal of confidence which the mind associates with solid arguments, factual correctness and all that other good stuff.

(This offtopic digression was brought to you by the smilies and :halo:)

Quote from bateleur

So had the voting ended two for, one abstain and one against, that would result in...?

Show me where arim set down rules like that for what would get a deadline extension granted. Hell, show me where the majority actually put their hands up for an extension. The mod's desire to let the play decide the day, and not a deadline set a mere *2 weeks* from the start of the day, is all that let us get the extension (pretty sure arim didn't realise how short the day actually had been).

And your "abstention" had the purpose of making it more difficult to achieve a majority in favour of extending the deadline, which you know.

This game-playing speaks volumes about your honesty and your intent with the deadline. That was a major, major screwup on your part, but you didn't realise the mod would extend anyway

Quote from bateleur »

Xyre would have been lynched. I'm happy with that.

Oh dear.

Quote from THE RULES »

6. A majority is always required to lynch. If a deadline is imposed, and no majority is reached prior to it, the day will end with no lynch.

That's even been quoted in the thread before. In post 722 by ZDS: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2183541&postcount=722

just 11 posts before your excursion into being happy with the deadline.

OH DEAR!



Full-claim now, bat, for my amusement if nothing else.

Seriously. Everyone who posts after this had better had a damn good reason for not lynching bateleur.

And anyone who doesn't post at all before deadline, well, that doesn't bear thinking about.

Quote from RafaelK

That's even been quoted in the thread before.

Not that it's relevant. Unless for some reason nobody else was able to vote between then and the deadline.

Or... wait... is what you're actually saying that you were grumpy because Xyre wasn't your personal first preference? If so, I hope you're ready to suck it up and vote for him after either I've claimed or you've failed to achieve a mandate for it. Because otherwise you'll end up responsible for a No Lynch.

Though really I think this is all getting well out of hand. It's not up to you as a lone individual to win or lose the game for the Town by pushing insanely hard at one target you've become obsessive about. If there was any merit to your arguments at all, why not just present the facts then allow the other players to draw their own conclusions? Why is it necessary to maintain a constant barrage of ranting, rhetoric and general hot air? (And this is even before we get to the fact that your entire case is based around your irritation that I won't reveal information nobody has any business knowing.)

Quote from bateleur

Not that it's relevant. Unless for some reason nobody else was able to vote between then and the deadline.

Or... wait... is what you're actually saying that you were grumpy because Xyre wasn't your personal first preference? If so, I hope you're ready to suck it up and vote for him after either I've claimed or you've failed to achieve a mandate for it. Because otherwise you'll end up responsible for a No Lynch.

You keep saying you will claim, but you're not doing it. Are you trying to stall to the deadline?

Quote from ZeDorkSlipeur

It is. No deadline extension = no lynch. Which you knew (or should have known).

Still irrelevant unless you're maintaining that Xyre would not have accumulated sufficient votes in the time. If so, can you explain why you think this, because it just seems obviously wrong to me.

There's Raf and Xyre who want a full claim (I think), and Charles and me want him to (at least) claim if he targetted Azrael.

Well OK, if I vote for myself to claim targetting that makes a majority, so I'll claim that much in the interests of wasting less time: Yes, I used at least one ability last night which targetted Azrael. By this I mean that I named him by player name in my night orders.

For the record, I consider being pressured into revealing this to have been an anti-town initiative and if there turn out to be only two Mafia I will insist on RafaelK's immediate lynch since his "cannot be scum" excuse would at that point cease to be valid.

Quote from bateleur

Well OK, if I vote for myself to claim targetting that makes a majority, so I'll claim that much in the interests of wasting less time: Yes, I used at least one ability last night which targetted Azrael. By this I mean that I named him by player name in my night orders.

For the record, I consider being pressured into revealing this to have been an anti-town initiative and if there turn out to be only two Mafia I will insist on RafaelK's immediate lynch since his "cannot be scum" excuse would at that point cease to be valid.

This doesn't assuage my doubts, for sure. The subtlety is disconcerting, and doubly so that it seems like it's unfounded, based on what you're saying.

OK, Bat, you just made yourself look scummier. I fully support a full-claim. Now, please, as we're on a deadline.

That makes three. You need at least four (assuming I vote for my own fullclaim against my better judgement for time reasons).

As an aside, it shouldn't make me look scummier since if I were scum in this situation there'd be a substantial incentive to say "No, I didn't target him" and accept the frankly tiny risk that he was certain and not just guessing.

Well since I'm just about to turn in for the (real world) night I suppose this had better be now:

I am Dr. Dracula, Vampire Doctor.

At night I can either Doc someone, which costs me one blood point, or I can drink from another player, which gains me a blood point. I start the game with one blood point.

Last night, I drank from Azrael.

This is why I thought Azrael was guessing, because my role as described made me think that a player I drank from wouldn't be told I'd done so.

Congrats to RafaelK - after Stereotype that's the second time in a row you've hosed me on a random hunch by going after me like a bulldog on drugs!

Quote from bateleur

Well since I'm just about to turn in for the (real world) night I suppose this had better be now:

I am Dr. Dracula, Vampire Doctor.

At night I can either Doc someone, which costs me one blood point, or I can drink from another player, which gains me a blood point. I start the game with one blood point.

Last night, I drank from Azrael.

This is why I thought Azrael was guessing, because my role as described made me think that a player I drank from wouldn't be told I'd done so.

Congrats to RafaelK - after Stereotype that's the second time in a row you've hosed me on a random hunch by going after me like a bulldog on drugs!

Uh... you would think that a person you drink blood from wouldn't know that? That's like saying that a person you punched in the face would think he had a spontaneous nosebleed, or a person you shot would ask you if you shot him because he honestly isn't sure if the pain in his gut isn't just a heart attack. Plus, while Hawkeye did claim doc in Random 2, the connection doesn't seem to be quite there.

I dunno. I'm kind of torn on this one.

:-/:-/:-/

Unvote.

Vote Arimnaes

Unvote.

Vote xyre

Unvote.

Vote CPE

I don't believe him.

Quote from bateleur

Well since I'm just about to turn in for the (real world) night I suppose this had better be now:

I am Dr. Dracula, Vampire Doctor.

At night I can either Doc someone, which costs me one blood point, or I can drink from another player, which gains me a blood point. I start the game with one blood point.

Last night, I drank from Azrael.

This is why I thought Azrael was guessing, because my role as described made me think that a player I drank from wouldn't be told I'd done so.

Congrats to RafaelK - after Stereotype that's the second time in a row you've hosed me on a random hunch by going after me like a bulldog on drugs!

Well, first of all, I really like the design of this role. If you're false-claiming, nice role to make up. Use it in a real game sometime. If it's your real role, nice job Arimnaes!

The problem is, what is this nostalgic of? I don't remember a Vampire Mafia being run here.

Quote from Xyre

Uh... you would think that a person you drink blood from wouldn't know that? That's like saying that a person you punched in the face would think he had a spontaneous nosebleed, or a person you shot would ask you if you shot him because he honestly isn't sure if the pain in his gut isn't just a heart attack.

Pretty well said there.

Soo... the real Doc should counterclaim right now if they exist, because we're at LAL and that means that regardless of sacrifices, we need a mafia dead now.

Any counterclaims? If not, I'd say Bat is telling the truth. I mean how lucky would it be to gambit that the town had no doctor, and be correct?

Here's what I think:

If the Doc counterclaims in the next day (maybe two I guess, but that would make it a little too close to the deadline to make me comfortable) we lynch Bateleur. If not, we pile on Xyre.

Agreed? This sounds pretty fair to me.

And what if a doctor counterclaims him? He's really just half a doc anyway thanks to his drawback, so he could argue it's just an unusual setup.

EBWODP: And anyway, that role is very similar to my doc from Blood Moon Mafia, only with fewer points.

arimnaes' last mini had no doctor (Hollywood Mafia). I should know, I lost because I spent too much time hunting the doc instead of just killing the cop outright.

Doc is always a good back-to-the-wall claim for scum in case it draws a counter, and even better when it's possible that there will be no counter.

Quote from ZeDorkSlipeur

The past roles closest to Dr. Dracula I could find are Dracula (mafia recruiter in Random 2) and Count Chocula (vanilla mafia in Newb 8).
For this reason I'm going to believe him. We already have a supposed Wu who is a Shu, and the Fourth Fan (originally scum) is town as well.

The problem is:
1) arim would have to be stupid to have an obvious pattern to town and scum roles. arim is not stupid.

2) how do roleclaims like "fadeblue" and "nine year old girl" (which I think is what Azrael has claimed?) fit into this?

It's mostly WIFOM and set-up speculation, but right now I think we should give Bate a pass.

Yes it is, and no we shouldn't. That's an incredibly poor reason to let bateleur off.

Azrael> We've had the CPE discussion. If we lynch him, it's tomorrow not today. Switch your vote to Xyre please - at least following Hunted Charlie's plan if not immediately - we do not have time to mess around.

That's an incredibly poor reason to let bateleur off.

Let me off what?

I realise you desperately wanted me to be scum so you'd end up looking good, but isn't it time to reconsider now? Do you actually have a model here for what's going on in the game? Because as far as I can tell your line so far is something like:

* bateleur is evil because Az says so.
* OMG bateleur's defending himself!
* OMG bateleur's still defending himself!
* I don't believe that roleclaim.

On what basis do you form all this suspicion? I can see why Xyre's going for me because it's his only chance to live, but your stance makes no sense.

Quote from ZeDorkSlipeur

The past roles closest to Dr. Dracula I could find are Dracula (mafia recruiter in Random 2) and Count Chocula (vanilla mafia in Newb 8).

Any counterclaims? If not, I'd say Bat is telling the truth.

Quote from ">" rel="nofollow">RafaelK

arimnaes' last mini had no doctor (Hollywood Mafia). I should know, I lost because I spent too much time hunting the doc instead of just killing the cop outright.

:-/:-/

Quote from bateleur

Azrael> We've had the CPE discussion.

Quote from bateleur »

If we lynch him, it's tomorrow not today.

:thumbsup::thumbsdown:

WANT
CLAIM
TODAY

Quote from bateleur »

Switch your vote to Xyre please - at least following Hunted Charlie's plan if not immediately - we do not have time to mess around.

Quote from Azrael

WANT
CLAIM
TODAY

From who? (CPE has already claimed. I have already claimed.)

Quote from Hvirfilvindr »

RafaelK - 6 (armlx, Azrael, Azrael, Azrael, Azrael, Azrael)

4 Xyre - ZeDorkSlipeur, chamber, Hunted Charlie, bateleur
3 bateleur - RafaelK, creampuffeater, Xyre
2 creampuffeater - AlphaInsidious, Azrael

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch.

Quote from bateleur

(CPE has already claimed.)

Yes =

No =

Unvote, vote Xyre.

:argh::banghead:

Unvote, vote CPE

Quote from Azrael

Yes, he has already claimed.

Claim is here.

If something's wrong with that then please elaborate.