Now that I'm back into this game fo' shizzle now, I'll simply state that MD's actions are very newbieish. As pathetic as it is at times, I believe his actions due to how personally offended he gets when voted. If he were scum, I would believe his actions would have been different.
Rereading through the thread, I've been getting scum tells from Tregit. However, when I got to the end of this thread, people started a bandwagon on Tregit. As much as I'd like to agree with the bandwagon, I'll hold off until someone explains why exactly the bandwagon is forming.
I will be away from Tomorrow morning till Sunday Night.
I apologize for my lack of posting.
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Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
MD, I wasn't suspicious of you for being polite to Puzzle. I was suspicious of you for defending Leilani when you knew nothing about her. "She's a newb, like me," may seem very noble, but it's bad form to defend people for metagame reasons, and the fact that you did it with no knowledge of her situation looked scummy. I didn't even care about your interaction with Puzzle.
Secondly, are you male or female? Some people seem to be confused...
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
First, a note that probably isn't particluarly important at this point:
My original post voting MD (right after DYH's saying this wasn't his first/only game) was 2 minutes after DYH's post. Posts like the one I came up with take more than 2 minutes to write (at least for me) because I went back and looked at most of the thread to make sure I hadn't missed anything. I didn't even know that post was there until after I had made my voting post. That said, the rest of the wagon very possibly could have come out of that, so decent point.
Oh yeah... unvote
I finally got my explanation. I'm still not convince MD is town, but I'm now leaning a little more toward newb town than newb scum (I don't think the newb half is in question here). MD's explanation post looks like there could easily be something cryptic in there and I'll probably go back and reread that a couple times after I finish this (stupid poetry analysis :().
On a different note, I just reade DYH and Treigit's posts over the past 4-5 pages. I agree that Treigit really does look rather scummy there, and I have yet to see much out of him other than fishing and seriously pushing the MD wagon. A lot of the pushing looks like lynchward pushing, or at least trying to get a lot more info at a point where I don't think that much info was actually needed (like post 175). My push on that wagon was a push for an explanation for MD's actions (more general that that suggested in 175) which I got in the end.
I would love to jump on the Treigit wagon fully right now (with a vote), but it seems rather unnecessary seeing as there are already 5 votes there and enought pressure to get some talking.
Quote from Treigit »
Does someone want to list the charges so I can respond?
For the benefit of Treigit and Absolutionis, I can't speak for anybody else but my reasons for voting Treigit are for his admittedly scummy fishing about the setup which is something we have no use for at this point, but any little tidbit could help the scum narrow down power roles or make a safe claim.
Also, I feel like Treigit and arimnaes and others siezed on MD's newbness as a good mislynch for day 1. At this point, MD's scummitude or not is kind of a tossup, but I sided with being newb and not scum, which means those voting and pushing MD's wagon deserve a closer look. Of those, Treigit and arimnaes stood out, but Treigit had the fishing thing too, so I'm voting him.
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"Flesh so fine, so fine to tear, to gash the skin; skin to strip, to plait, so nice to plait the strips, so nice, so red the drops that fall; blood so red, so red, so sweet; sweet screams, pretty screams, singing screams, scream your song, sing your screams…” - The Eye of the World - Robert Jordan
You've already acknowledged it's "scummy", even if it's in jest (and making light of it doesn't make it something we should ignore); set-up speculation is typically regarded as something the mafia is more interested in pursuing. It's not helping us find scum, it's giving them information.
You called it scummy previous to this. That is why I called it uberscummy (though that probably should have been in quotes)
Quote from DYH »
For example, when people bring up a sect, I think it's naturally going to be assumed by others that perhaps that's where their role claim comes from. So, point 1, while trying to make yourself look like a good little townie, is really self-defeating by encouraging the pursuit of this "conversation". See, for example, people might think you're a Hindi god because of the way you added them on here with point 2.
People are free to speculate that I'm a Hindi god. Statistically They'll be wrong, I could also be Greek/Roman, Egyptian, Norse, An incarnation of the Abrahamic God, Set, or Quetzycoatal. I've named them all.
It would be very stupid for someone to come up with a single uncommon patheon and suggest that there might be a god from there, or at even worse, name a single god. I'd assumed people in this game are generally smarter than that.
Quote from DYH »
What are you trying to accomplish with point 3 other than more idle speculation, or for Almighty God and/or Jesus to come out and claim here day one? To steal an oft-used line: This is not helpful.
That's (Idle Speculation) exactly what I'm going for. Look at any flavor based mafia game on this site (with the ironic exception of Drawn Together where as scum I was beaten to the speculation punch.) I like to get conversations started, and while we were moving out of the random voting stage, I wanted more to discuss than the benifits of Random Lynches.
Quote from DYH »
Point 4: Wikipedia, Pantheon.org, google, etc.. We are playing on an internet game, we all have access to these things to do our own research without publicly displaying it to the scum.
Oddly, neither Pantheon.org, nor the first 600 hits on Google (Parameteres "Gods") mention Cthulu. I'd be willing to bet the same is true for O-Kagachi, etc. I bet draygn included (atleast) one such God. We're geeks here, we can be creative.
Quote from DYH »
I'm reading through the thread just fine, thank you very much.
I'm not, others have said they've had similar difficulties.
Quote from DYH »
People go through days in mafia games with suspicion on them, not being cleared, nor lynched all the time. Oftentimes because there are other things worthy of discussing, too.
Which I mentioned in my post. "Or having additional information come to light"
Quote from DYH »
You seem to be deflecting here. (Why look at me- we need to deal with MD_?)
You attack me for voting/discussing DYH, yet when I defend my post, I'm Deflecting?
Quote from DYH »
Basically, I don't like what you've been doing at all. There's plenty going on to discuss without going into setup speculation.
Remind me, what exactly was going on when I made my initial Pantheon Post?
To those who have labelled MD as newb town rather than newb scum, I must respectfully disagree. I think he has played the "Why are you voting me, I just a confused newbie" card to great effectiveness, and other than his "subliminal" claim he hasn't done anything to reassure me.
The only person I'd consider switching my vote to would be Treigit, but I'm a wee bit uncomfortable with the speed at which his wagon has groven, even in a 27 player game.
Anyway, I have to congratulate Treigit on his defense here, it was very well done. It's the first post you've made that hasn't included a significant scum tell.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
MD, I wasn't suspicious of you for being polite to Puzzle. I was suspicious of you for defending Leilani when you knew nothing about her. "She's a newb, like me," may seem very noble, but it's bad form to defend people for metagame reasons, and the fact that you did it with no knowledge of her situation looked scummy. I didn't even care about your interaction with Puzzle.
Secondly, are you male or female? Some people seem to be confused...
HE WHAT?!
I'm not a newb, I've played mafia on a few occasions before. Granted, I'm not too good at it, but it's not like I know nothing about playing it, either.
And where did he say that? If it was posted, I can't find it. Or maybe I'm so...lacking a better word, infuriated...that I subconciously won't let myself see it.
Anyway, this was just a check-in post, to keep people from screaming about inactive players. Today's my birthday, so pardon me for not having an indepth discussion with you kids. [I'm 18, by the way.]
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MD's explanation post looks like there could easily be something cryptic in there and I'll probably go back and reread that a couple times after I finish this (stupid poetry analysis :().
OK... I'm just gonna save you all the trouble
I
S
I
S
G
O
D
O
F
M
A
G
I
C
we good?
OK... I'm just gonna save you all the trouble
I
S
I
S
G
O
D
O
F
M
A
G
I
C
we good?
Wow, I didn't notice that...:sweat:
I was actually reading for even more cryptic stuff (as in not just reading it the right way, rather understanding it correctly). The only thing I found was "Few know my true motivations for anything" but in light of the above (as in need for an "F" there), I really don't think that bears any relevance on anything at this point.
Sorry, Lei. I vaguely remeber you playing one other game like 8 months ago and getting replaced for lurking, but I didn't know you'd ever really played. Apologies if I gave offense.
Treigit's quote of MD is the post I was refering to.
As for kops, I suppose that was necessary. In the future, try to think about exactly what we gain by having info public. Yes, the claim was obvious that most people saw it right away, but we might have gotten lucky and none of the mafia might have seen it. It isn't as if having that info in the open does ANYTHING for us.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
3. Makes totally unnecessary unofficial vote counts, possibly a way to seem helpful without actually contributing.
4. Seems to have a love-hate relationship with Puzzle. Inexplicably votes him, then later unvotes him, then starts sucking up to him.
5. Gets completely emo.
6. Breadcrumbs unnecessarily, and states the town WC as if it weren't publicly available info anyway.
..those arent really reasons to vote someone.
Quote from arimnaes »
think he has played the "Why are you voting me, I just a confused newbie" card to great effectiveness, and other than his "subliminal" claim he hasn't done anything to reassure me.
The only person I'd consider switching my vote to would be Treigit, but I'm a wee bit uncomfortable with the speed at which his wagon has groven, even in a 27 player game.
so he's not a noob? and him claiming isis reassures you how?
and its not okay to wagon treigit, but its okay to wagon MD?
As for kops, I suppose that was necessary. In the future, try to think about exactly what we gain by having info public. Yes, the claim was obvious that most people saw it right away, but we might have gotten lucky and none of the mafia might have seen it. It isn't as if having that info in the open does ANYTHING for us.
Normally, I'd agree (I've already caught at least one semi-obvious sub-claim that I'm definately not going to reveal for now), however, this one is the extreme case of "how much more obvious can you get?" and I think in this case we may as well have the whole town in the know instead of just the whole mafia and part of the town.
Hmm... well I guess I'm not completely sure what about MD makes me think he's more likely to be town. Mostly it seems to just be a hunch. It's not a very strong hunch though. I'll read back through the thread and see if I can come up with anything more concrete (on anybody) later today.
I'm gonna barn CP here. Treigit's defense looks fair. I'll leave my vote for now, but ariminaes is looking pretty bad right now(insert FOS).
Quote from Puzzle »
While I can see reasons why, can people like Mosschop, silicon and Absolutionis explain to me in more details why MD's newbieness is more townish than scummish in their eyes (not CC, thx) ?
Post 13 – Appears to breadcrumb role (personally, I find people that do this suspect). Random Vote: Kenji.
Post 29 – Sucks up to Azrael. Also points to Azrael’s possible posting restriction. (not necessary, nor helpful) Random votes again, Leilani
Post 36 – Nothing here, just silliness with Loran about KTES.
Post 44 – Jokes about Kenji being mod-confirmed if he’s town. Votes Kenji again, claiming his vote is currently on him, but it’s not.
Post 58 – Votes Azrael. This is the 4th vote in 5 posts. Uses some silly metaphors. Jokingly points out his logic is flawless on lynching Kenji later. Claims to be seeing what game Azrael is trying to play.
Post 62 – Says that his last post was comprised before the three preceding posts, but sticks with his vote anyone since it’s “too early for changing of minds”. (see note on post 58). Laughs at Puzzle’s joke.
Post 68 – This was the post that originally drew my eye to Treigit. Here, he votes Grimclaw (that’s vote #5 for those keeping track), and claims that Grimclaw has made the only post that did not progress the state of the game. (Not true, i.e. post 36). Then makes this statement:
Quote from Treigit »
Hey my vote's not going to mean anything until I leave it in one place long enough for a vote count, huh. I promise, anyday now, (and definetly by day 3) I'll try doing something productive with my vote
The fact that he’s pointing out his vote-hopping, much like calling his Pantheon Plan “scummy” later, does not excuse it. And what makes you so sure you’ll be around Day 3?
Post 81 – Points out those who have not posted. (I’ve always considered lurker-hunting, particularly early in the game, to be a scum tell.) Then goes on some tangent about how Bluesoul's random die rolling votes and FoSes allow him to distance himself from their responsibility later and removes the ability for him to be hinting at actual suspicions/investigations. ??? I’m calling BS here, and it looks like he’s trying to fish out information. Ends with this:
Quote from Treigit »
All of my random votes, as much as I assure you they're random still contribute to the game state, your posts on the other hand contribute nothing.
To which I followed with this:
Quote from DYH »
Vote: Treigit There's a "random" vote that might contribute to something.
"Random" was emphasized to hint that I was contributing to the game-state with my vote.
I’m at work, so I don’t have time to go any further, but I think it should be quite obvious why I found you suspicious when I did, Treigit. Your continued fishing only made it worse, coupled with hopping on the MD_ wagon.
Now, I'll go back and read everything thoroughly that happened last night while I was out- that question just popped out to me and needed to be answered.
(sorry for the font craziness, I'm having a terrible time formatting this from Word.)
I just think that MD's pattern of behavior is characteristic of a newb scum player who got cornered early on but is now successfully weaseling out of it with just the right combination of melodrama and sycophancy. I get a huge vibe of insincerity from him, where apparently several people seem to be getting the opposite.
And right now, I'm not getting on the Treigit wagon, for two reasons.
1. I think his defense was reasonable.
2. Something doesn't feel right to me about the way that first you had DYH shouting about Treigit till he was blue in the face, to no avail, then suddenly someone says "This Treigit character's somewhat suspicious" and his bandwagon is off to the races. It feels orchestrated to me.
Good. Now wait an hour or two. Cropcircles
Azrael
Axelrod
...
Hmm. What is that supposed to mean?
Puzzle
Neat.
Still not paying close enough attention to this yet. Don't fret, it will come.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
he has played on multiple occasions. Obviously, MD, feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
I must honor your request. You see, I did play a handful (4 or 5) AIM games a few years ago and remember them going by very quickly. This is my first game in the last few years, and my first forum game ever. Hope that answered your question.
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In tregits deffense it was still random voting. Although those are some intresting points raised by DYH.
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"No, I specifically heard denim. Looks like so crafty ghost is trying to break our code" -Bravo 3 "I know nothing of the law, only vengence" -Dom, U/G madness
Maybe DYH's next post will bring some better points, but that last one just doesn't do it for me. I don't think breadcrumbing is particularly scummy, except given certain set-ups(when mafia are given false claims, for instance), and early game vote hopping in a 27 person game means very little. I'll leave a FOS Treigit on him, but for now I think my vote is better set on Chuck.
Quote from Axelrod »
Still not paying close enough attention to this yet. Don't fret, it will come.
Anybody care to elaborate on why the Chucklez is suddenly worth voting for? I have my suspicions, but I'd like to hear your reasons.
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"Flesh so fine, so fine to tear, to gash the skin; skin to strip, to plait, so nice to plait the strips, so nice, so red the drops that fall; blood so red, so red, so sweet; sweet screams, pretty screams, singing screams, scream your song, sing your screams…” - The Eye of the World - Robert Jordan
- you didn't know how long day 1 would take but expected it to be over soon when you voted me
- you didn't know my alignment but piled a fifth vote on me, not expecting it to do anything or expecting it to progress the game
- you unvoted me after my wagon slowed down (MMoD jumping off) because you like my style
- you panicked and leaked info leading among other things to your Pantheon and name (which prove nothing) when you reached 4-5 votes
I'm surprised this came in the same post as your unvoting of MD. It seems pretty damning to me. It shows a dichotomy between panicking noob and 5 votes, and the same noob casually puting someone else at 5 votes. If MD expects five votes to become a lynch, MD can only have been trying to kill Puzzle, not speed the game. Vote stands.
No, no, I assure you, nothing like that this time.
Just the combo of extreme business followed by extreme laziness. Over and over.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
This game is very different from any I've played in a long time. We've got people spewing scum tells like the whole town is trying to get lynched. We have multiple attacks against multi0ple people by multiple people. Since when did people on this site stop trying to hide behind one another? Is it because MoT is in the game?
In any case, this game has been vastly more fun to follow than many of recent memory, and if it has to do with the game setup, my congrats to D_M. There's a veritable wealth of info to go back on, as people interact. This is nice. Anyway:
Unvote, Vote MD
Sorry, dude. I really think you have potential, but I can't see that we're going to get a better target than you at this point. The wagon was beginning to dissolve, and not only did you maintain irrational defensiveness, but you were revealed in active deception. How can we let you live?
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
A_H: I believe MD was trying to put some pressure on Puzzle to get some off him/her. Of course, Md openly admitting that would lead to a whole nother slew of attacks, so..
Quote from c_p »
I can't see that we're going to get a better target than you at this point.
are we in any sort of hurry? lets flesh out our multiple targets, eh? in fact, fos cp
Arimnaes, Treigit, and Puzzle. But then again, I'm always interested in Puzzle.
I sliced open my thumb pretty well at work last night, but I'm sure that by late evening tonight the pain will subside and I'll have some extra time to spread chaos and confusion throughout the thread.
I fail to see why Chucklez is scummy enough to have a wagon on him at this point (despite the fact that this isn't really a wagon). He's made one real scum tell (well, two if you count lurking) (post 186). At this point in the day, targeting someone who has made 1 post looking like scum (even if they have only made 2 others) just seems like too much of a crapshot to me, especially when we have some real discussion going (and by no means dead) with respect to the Treigit and MD wagons (which I found both much more reasonable).
Up to this point, I've read almost all of the Chucklez wagon as a half-joke, so, to try to figure out what's going on with it, I have some PBPA:
Post 186 - Chucklez says he wouldn't mind an MD lynch, but still won't vote for him.
Post 187 - HE7 lists everyone in the game, most with a "vote:" before them, but only actually votes Chucklez (no reason given). I'm not sure what to think of this.
Post 216 - arimnaes quotes post 186 and gives a fos: Chucklez (no reasons given other than the post itself).
Post 254 - Puzzle votes Chucklez saying he's "the only obvious scum" and saying he wants to "release pressure from MD and avoid further leaks." This seems like a half-joke (chosing Chucklez), but there does seem to be some unexplained reasoning there.
Post 263 - bluesoul asks Puzzle to elaborate on his Chucklez vote from post 254.
Post 265 - CropCircles votes Chucklez saying, "for now I think my vote is better set on Chuck [than Treigit]." No reasons given.
post 266 - arimnaes votes Chucklez saying, "this at least is a wagon I can get behind" despite the fact that it isn't really a wagon (he's only the 4th vote), and finally hopping off the MD wagon.
Post 267 - CC asks arimnaes "Why?" in relation to post 266.
Post 268 - Machin Shin wonders why Chucklez is vote-worthy saying he has his own suspicions (no vote).
Post 269 - CC says "arimnaes should be able to clear it up for you." in response to post 268.
Post 270 - DYH lists arimnaes as suspect for jumping on the Chucklez wagon in the way he did. (votes arimnaes).
I have to agree with DYH here. This wagon just seems too shaky for arimnaes to jump on like that especially giving no reason. I would say CC is a little suspect too, but he has been playing like that all game, and nobody pegged him as possibly scum. I have to say, arimnaes definitely looks like scum after this one (and a number of other things that I'm not going to do PBPA on right now).
Vote: arimnaes
Also, I have to agree with Machin Shin. Could someone please clear up what (if anything) is so scummy about Chucklez at this point. I'm just not seeing anything anywhere close to pseudo-wagon worthy (I find it hard to call 4 votes a wagon at this point).
So I had to go to SLC at the last minute. And am there now. I'm still following the thread, and can post (obv), but don't have as much time for it. (Will return to PDX on Mon.)
DYH, thanks for that, just wanted to see if you had a reason (and you've got quite a decent one for a random vote), I won't answer any of those points unless someone (DYH included) continue to find them damning.
Arimnaes, I'd also like to hear what makes the Chuklez wagon best. (I'll accept that the post in question was scummy, but how is he better than anyone else?)
I am feeling better about arimnaes from that last post, but I'm still shaky on him.
Chucklez may have only slipped one tell, but it was a pretty significant tell.
Quote from Chuck »
I have no idea what to make of MD. It's hard for me to tell whether he really is just frustrated with newbery, or a first time scum panicked at being caught.
I won't vote for him for now I suppose, but I can't honestly say I am very opposed to a lynch.
He adds nothing new with this post except that he wouldn't mind an MD lynch. He does not actually take a stance on anything, he doesn't even FOS, but he tries to keep discussion on MD. I cannot stress enough how strongly I am reading MD as non-mafia. If I had some kind of day-ability this game, I already would have used it.
So, quick re-skim through and these people probably gave off the highest scummy vibes (or didn't give off because they haven't said anything--I'm looking at you MOT):
The only thing MD did which really put me off was chastize the town for voting for him as though it were obvious he was townie and the town was being stupid voting for him and deserved what it got.
Anyway: Tregit, Puzzle, Kops723, Bluesoul. Top 4 right now--not necessarily in that order.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Arimnaes, I'd also like to hear what makes the Chuklez wagon best. (I'll accept that the post in question was scummy, but how is he better than anyone else?)
Well, as far as I'm concerned, MD is still better, but Chucklez is my top suspect that anyone actually agrees with me on. So, if I can't make any progress on the MD front, I'm willing to put my vote on my number 2 man instead.
Quote from CP »
The wagon was beginning to dissolve, and not only did you maintain irrational defensiveness, but you were revealed in active deception.
I agree on the irrational defensiveness, but I'm not sure I follow on how he's actively deceived the town.
You started with an overtly random vote. Not especially scummy in and of itself.
Then pointlessly argued with Tregit about it.
Then said this gem:
Quote from bluesoul »
MTGS is always a little too rushed for my taste. Rushed and a lot of posts...seems like it's inherently in favor of the town imo.
Which is doubly weird. You are complaining about too many posts--which is usaually good for a game, not bad. I mean, what's the alternative? And then you appear to be complaining that it favors the town. Which is odd for a townie to say. Not impossible, just odd.
Mosschop called you out for that one, and you defended yourself by calling it "speculation" and said it didn't mean a lot.
Then you jumped on the MD wagon, right after he partially claimed, with this:
Quote from bluesoul »
The self-voting, self-destructive bit is enough for me.
Vote MD, FOS: Aurorasparrow + Arimnaes
(Aurorasparrow for the attempted clearing of MD, Arimnaes for minor fishing.)
For the record, I do vote people on principle for self-voting. There is, at times, a time and a place to sacrifice yourself for the betterment of the town's position. However, this is neither the time nor the place. Right now it's definitely as good of a place as any to continue the day.
MD himself called you on the fact that Az had been self-voting the entire game, but that you apparently brushed off with no remarks whatsoever.
Kops jumps in to give an excuse for you for this apparent inconsistency (Az has a posting restriction), and you agree with him that's what you thought (though you hadn't said as much before).
What kind of posting restriction do you think Az has anyway?
Then, after MD (poorly) subliminally claims you give him the smiley (without unvoting). And then come back and unvote without further explanation several hours later. Did he get less suspicious in those hours? Did you forget to unvote before? Or did you just see which way the tide was turning and jump off?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Well, this is an odd position to be in. As it stands, if I weren't me, I am fairly sure I'd be voting for me.
I have no really explination for the super scummy post I made, and looking at it now, I have absolutely no idea why I would make it. It's the hieght of newbery as Scum, and very unhelpful as Town. There is no situation I can think of in which that is a good post.
What I meant by the post was that since I was unable to come to a conclusion about him, I would be happy to follow the will of the Town, but again that is no excuse. It was just a dumb post.
As for the lurking, well I apologize. I have no real reason beyond it being summer, and playing too many games.
Also, I forgot to put in my first post. Nevermind the !s when typing my name, its a pain.
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This game is very different from any I've played in a long time. We've got people spewing scum tells like the whole town is trying to get lynched. We have multiple attacks against multi0ple people by multiple people. Since when did people on this site stop trying to hide behind one another? Is it because MoT is in the game?
In any case, this game has been vastly more fun to follow than many of recent memory, and if it has to do with the game setup, my congrats to D_M. There's a veritable wealth of info to go back on, as people interact. This is nice. Anyway:
Unvote, Vote MD
Sorry, dude. I really think you have potential, but I can't see that we're going to get a better target than you at this point. The wagon was beginning to dissolve, and not only did you maintain irrational defensiveness, but you were revealed in active deception. How can we let you live?
Oh boy. How'd I manage to miss this one, right at the juicy end of the thread, before I posted?
FOS Carrion Pigeons. That statement sounds so incredible as to be almost tongue-in-cheek, but that's certainly not the impression it conveys. Can we get some clarification on that?
(Good catch, MD)
Quote from CropCircles »
I am feeling better about arimnaes from that last post, but I'm still shaky on him.
Chucklez may have only slipped one tell, but it was a pretty significant tell.
He adds nothing new with this post except that he wouldn't mind an MD lynch. He does not actually take a stance on anything, he doesn't even FOS, but he tries to keep discussion on MD. I cannot stress enough how strongly I am reading MD as non-mafia. If I had some kind of day-ability this game, I already would have used it.
Hmm, a little bit loose on the information revelation, and the ever-popular counter-punch mafia technique. Overstatement too, it wasn't a strong enough tell to really spring the trap on him, yet. It's not unusual for newer players to devalue fellow townies who seem to be stumbling around; it's a common enough trait in mafia too, and not IMO worth portraying this way:
Chucklez may have only slipped one tell, but it was a pretty significant tell.
FOS Cropcircles.
*adds to the flailing/information burst wracking thread*
Vote Azrael.
Quote from !Chucklez! »
Well, this is an odd position to be in. As it stands, if I weren't me, I am fairly sure I'd be voting for me.
I have no really explination for the super scummy post I made, and looking at it now, I have absolutely no idea why I would make it. It's the hieght of newbery as Scum, and very unhelpful as Town. There is no situation I can think of in which that is a good post.
What I meant by the post was that since I was unable to come to a conclusion about him, I would be happy to follow the will of the Town, but again that is no excuse. It was just a dumb post.
As for the lurking, well I apologize. I have no real reason beyond it being summer, and playing too many games.
Also, I forgot to put in my first post. Nevermind the !s when typing my name, its a pain.
Then again, this response is interesting. That is, it appears very townie-like.
Well, this is an odd position to be in. As it stands, if I weren't me, I am fairly sure I'd be voting for me.
That's not good. Publically expressed self doubt worries me. Guilty conscience or apologetic townie? Find out in the next episode of (announcer voice) god mafia. /joke
I agree on the irrational defensiveness, but I'm not sure I follow on how he's actively deceived the town.
PS. MoT probably ought to be replaced.
MoT always needs to be replaced. He's a notorious lurker, and even when he posts, it's complete nonsense. (Admittedly, it's been a long time since I've played a game with him, but this is his MO as I remember it.)
Maybe I'm mistaken, but I thought that it was proven that MD had lied about this being his first game. I suppose I need to go back and find exactly what it was that gave me that idea.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Nope, you're mistaken. It was revealed that this game ties with a game on News as my first game (they started at about the same time). It was also revealed that I played a small handful of AIM games many years ago.
Your entire post's sole purpose seems to be to put attention back on me. Now I'm not a mafia expert, but I believe that some of the more experienced players will be displeased by your actions here.
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Okay, thank you for at least giving me something to defend against, Axel. I'll try to answer this to the best of my abilities.
Quote from Axelrod »
You started with an overtly random vote. Not especially scummy in and of itself.
Then pointlessly argued with Tregit about it.
I did not, in fact, start this argument. It was fairly nonsensical to me. The only real advantage to random voting is that mafia tend to "random" vote their partners as a means of separation. But in a game this big, it really doesn't help thin out the crowd any. Random voting, in that aspect, can be very helpful, but IMO the game is too large.
Quote from Axelrod »
Then said this gem: "MTGS is always a little too rushed for my taste. Rushed and a lot of posts...seems like it's inherently in favor of the town imo."
Which is doubly weird. You are complaining about too many posts--which is usaually good for a game, not bad. I mean, what's the alternative? And then you appear to be complaining that it favors the town. Which is odd for a townie to say. Not impossible, just odd.
Mosschop called you out for that one, and you defended yourself by calling it "speculation" and said it didn't mean a lot.
I think that a lot of the Salvation players really play at what I can only call break-neck speed. I started on the GL, which is a whole different animal, much, much slower. You've seen people saying they assumed Day 1 would only last 48 hours at most, which to me is the equivalent of the town suicide. People are already looking at voting lurkers when the game is only a few days old, whereas on the GL I don't even prod until 25 days have passed. It's just really a difference of style. As for the "inherently in favor of the town" comment, I honestly believe that, as scum are forced to post more than they would typically like. By it favoring the town, I mean it's more likely to catch the mafia in a lie or have them give off a tell here than elsewhere. I'm mostly commenting about the MTGS metagame in and of itself. Perhaps it came out wrong but oh well.
Quote from Axelrod »
Then you jumped on the MD wagon, right after he partially claimed, with this: "The self-voting, self-destructive bit is enough for me.
Vote MD, FOS: Aurorasparrow + Arimnaes
(Aurorasparrow for the attempted clearing of MD, Arimnaes for minor fishing.)
For the record, I do vote people on principle for self-voting. There is, at times, a time and a place to sacrifice yourself for the betterment of the town's position. However, this is neither the time nor the place. Right now it's definitely as good of a place as any to continue the day."
MD himself called you on the fact that Az had been self-voting the entire game, but that you apparently brushed off with no remarks whatsoever.
Kops jumps in to give an excuse for you for this apparent inconsistency (Az has a posting restriction), and you agree with him that's what you thought (though you hadn't said as much before).
What kind of posting restriction do you think Az has anyway?
I do vote self-voters on principle. Anyone who's played with me in #mafia will be able to confirm that. I feel that they detract from the game and lead the town down a path they might otherwise not want to take, so the obvious thing to do is to eliminate the distraction. My pet peeve is when people give up and hammer themselves, especially when they have a role that is provable, or at the very least testable. (Yes, I'm looking at you, kops.) The difference between the MD case and the Azrael case is that Azrael was not voting himself in a moment of frustration; he has been consistently doing it in a manner that would infer a vote restriction. Whether this is role-based, or possibly some sort of mafia vote-jammer, or anything else like that, I really don't know, and I haven't thought too terribly much about it. I do think it's a vote restriction and not a post restriction (if it is, indeed, a restriction and not "self-imposed"), since he's been playing his usual game. I've got a lot of respect for Az; I think he will at least be able to give a rational defense later whereas MD, at the time, was not being rational at all.
Quote from Axelrod »
Then, after MD (poorly) subliminally claims you give him the smiley (without unvoting). And then come back and unvote without further explanation several hours later. Did he get less suspicious in those hours? Did you forget to unvote before? Or did you just see which way the tide was turning and jump off?
The aggravation with the subliminal claim and the unvote were two separate actions. Nothing had changed since my vote and the subliminal claim to have me think about unvoting MD, and I wasn't happy with the claiming. I will certainly not call it (the claim) unjustified, but most of the steam had gone out of the attempt to run MD up at that point. The unvote later was because several people have tried to invoke what I can only call a "newbie defense", and, to be quite honest, I didn't want to look like a butt and keep on voting. MD may be the lynch, or the night-kill, later on, but s/he is perhaps not the play today. I also have CropCircles' fairly blatant defense of MD to consider as we proceed in the game.
Hope this covered everything.
EBWODP: Axel, I see your "scummy list" doesn't have MD on it at all. You didn't think any of the action earlier was scummy?
Rereading through the thread, I've been getting scum tells from Tregit. However, when I got to the end of this thread, people started a bandwagon on Tregit. As much as I'd like to agree with the bandwagon, I'll hold off until someone explains why exactly the bandwagon is forming.
I apologize for my lack of posting.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Secondly, are you male or female? Some people seem to be confused...
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My original post voting MD (right after DYH's saying this wasn't his first/only game) was 2 minutes after DYH's post. Posts like the one I came up with take more than 2 minutes to write (at least for me) because I went back and looked at most of the thread to make sure I hadn't missed anything. I didn't even know that post was there until after I had made my voting post. That said, the rest of the wagon very possibly could have come out of that, so decent point.
Oh yeah...
unvote
I finally got my explanation. I'm still not convince MD is town, but I'm now leaning a little more toward newb town than newb scum (I don't think the newb half is in question here).
MD's explanation post looks like there could easily be something cryptic in there and I'll probably go back and reread that a couple times after I finish this (stupid poetry analysis :().
On a different note, I just reade DYH and Treigit's posts over the past 4-5 pages. I agree that Treigit really does look rather scummy there, and I have yet to see much out of him other than fishing and seriously pushing the MD wagon. A lot of the pushing looks like lynchward pushing, or at least trying to get a lot more info at a point where I don't think that much info was actually needed (like post 175). My push on that wagon was a push for an explanation for MD's actions (more general that that suggested in 175) which I got in the end.
I would love to jump on the Treigit wagon fully right now (with a vote), but it seems rather unnecessary seeing as there are already 5 votes there and enought pressure to get some talking.
Well, it is rather spread out over a bunch of posts (mainly, if not all by DYH), but I believe this is the one with the most concentrated stuff in it:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=1179014&postcount=191
Winner of the Weekly Signature & Avatar Contest Weeks 51, 59, 78, & 118.
I don't care if I was framed for murder if I only got a warning I would let it go.
Also, I feel like Treigit and arimnaes and others siezed on MD's newbness as a good mislynch for day 1. At this point, MD's scummitude or not is kind of a tossup, but I sided with being newb and not scum, which means those voting and pushing MD's wagon deserve a closer look. Of those, Treigit and arimnaes stood out, but Treigit had the fishing thing too, so I'm voting him.
People are free to speculate that I'm a Hindi god. Statistically They'll be wrong, I could also be Greek/Roman, Egyptian, Norse, An incarnation of the Abrahamic God, Set, or Quetzycoatal. I've named them all.
It would be very stupid for someone to come up with a single uncommon patheon and suggest that there might be a god from there, or at even worse, name a single god. I'd assumed people in this game are generally smarter than that.
That's (Idle Speculation) exactly what I'm going for. Look at any flavor based mafia game on this site (with the ironic exception of Drawn Together where as scum I was beaten to the speculation punch.) I like to get conversations started, and while we were moving out of the random voting stage, I wanted more to discuss than the benifits of Random Lynches.
Oddly, neither Pantheon.org, nor the first 600 hits on Google (Parameteres "Gods") mention Cthulu. I'd be willing to bet the same is true for O-Kagachi, etc. I bet draygn included (atleast) one such God. We're geeks here, we can be creative.
I'm not, others have said they've had similar difficulties.
Which I mentioned in my post. "Or having additional information come to light" You attack me for voting/discussing DYH, yet when I defend my post, I'm Deflecting?
Remind me, what exactly was going on when I made my initial Pantheon Post?
The only person I'd consider switching my vote to would be Treigit, but I'm a wee bit uncomfortable with the speed at which his wagon has groven, even in a 27 player game.
Anyway, I have to congratulate Treigit on his defense here, it was very well done. It's the first post you've made that hasn't included a significant scum tell.
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HE WHAT?!
I'm not a newb, I've played mafia on a few occasions before. Granted, I'm not too good at it, but it's not like I know nothing about playing it, either.
And where did he say that? If it was posted, I can't find it. Or maybe I'm so...lacking a better word, infuriated...that I subconciously won't let myself see it.
Anyway, this was just a check-in post, to keep people from screaming about inactive players. Today's my birthday, so pardon me for not having an indepth discussion with you kids. [I'm 18, by the way.]
I know it seems that I don't care,
but something in me does I swear.
[gaymers]
founder of the MTGS Forum Pirates
'tar/banner by R&Doom.
I think CP just remembered it as you being a newb. Congrats on the B'day. Hope you get wasted or not as your preference dictates.
CP, thank you... I think. Do I really give off that many tells?
DYH, just to refresh my memory why did you originally vote me?
I
S
I
S
G
O
D
O
F
M
A
G
I
C
we good?
I was actually reading for even more cryptic stuff (as in not just reading it the right way, rather understanding it correctly). The only thing I found was "Few know my true motivations for anything" but in light of the above (as in need for an "F" there), I really don't think that bears any relevance on anything at this point.
So yes, we're good.
Winner of the Weekly Signature & Avatar Contest Weeks 51, 59, 78, & 118.
I don't care if I was framed for murder if I only got a warning I would let it go.
Treigit's quote of MD is the post I was refering to.
As for kops, I suppose that was necessary. In the future, try to think about exactly what we gain by having info public. Yes, the claim was obvious that most people saw it right away, but we might have gotten lucky and none of the mafia might have seen it. It isn't as if having that info in the open does ANYTHING for us.
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..those arent really reasons to vote someone.
so he's not a noob? and him claiming isis reassures you how?
and its not okay to wagon treigit, but its okay to wagon MD?
vote arimnaes.
4th place at CCC&G Pro Tour
Chances of bad hands (<2 or >4 land):
21: 28.9%
22: 27.5%
23: 26.3%
24: 25.5%
25: 25.1%
26: 25.3%
Normally, I'd agree (I've already caught at least one semi-obvious sub-claim that I'm definately not going to reveal for now), however, this one is the extreme case of "how much more obvious can you get?" and I think in this case we may as well have the whole town in the know instead of just the whole mafia and part of the town.
*holds breath*
[The Family]
Post 13 – Appears to breadcrumb role (personally, I find people that do this suspect). Random Vote: Kenji.
Post 29 – Sucks up to Azrael. Also points to Azrael’s possible posting restriction. (not necessary, nor helpful) Random votes again, Leilani
Post 36 – Nothing here, just silliness with Loran about KTES.
Post 44 – Jokes about Kenji being mod-confirmed if he’s town. Votes Kenji again, claiming his vote is currently on him, but it’s not.
Post 58 – Votes Azrael. This is the 4th vote in 5 posts. Uses some silly metaphors. Jokingly points out his logic is flawless on lynching Kenji later. Claims to be seeing what game Azrael is trying to play.
Post 62 – Says that his last post was comprised before the three preceding posts, but sticks with his vote anyone since it’s “too early for changing of minds”. (see note on post 58). Laughs at Puzzle’s joke.
Post 68 – This was the post that originally drew my eye to Treigit. Here, he votes Grimclaw (that’s vote #5 for those keeping track), and claims that Grimclaw has made the only post that did not progress the state of the game. (Not true, i.e. post 36). Then makes this statement:
The fact that he’s pointing out his vote-hopping, much like calling his Pantheon Plan “scummy” later, does not excuse it. And what makes you so sure you’ll be around Day 3?
Post 81 – Points out those who have not posted. (I’ve always considered lurker-hunting, particularly early in the game, to be a scum tell.) Then goes on some tangent about how Bluesoul's random die rolling votes and FoSes allow him to distance himself from their responsibility later and removes the ability for him to be hinting at actual suspicions/investigations. ??? I’m calling BS here, and it looks like he’s trying to fish out information. Ends with this:
To which I followed with this:
"Random" was emphasized to hint that I was contributing to the game-state with my vote.
I’m at work, so I don’t have time to go any further, but I think it should be quite obvious why I found you suspicious when I did, Treigit. Your continued fishing only made it worse, coupled with hopping on the MD_ wagon.
Now, I'll go back and read everything thoroughly that happened last night while I was out- that question just popped out to me and needed to be answered.
(sorry for the font craziness, I'm having a terrible time formatting this from Word.)
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
I just think that MD's pattern of behavior is characteristic of a newb scum player who got cornered early on but is now successfully weaseling out of it with just the right combination of melodrama and sycophancy. I get a huge vibe of insincerity from him, where apparently several people seem to be getting the opposite.
And right now, I'm not getting on the Treigit wagon, for two reasons.
1. I think his defense was reasonable.
2. Something doesn't feel right to me about the way that first you had DYH shouting about Treigit till he was blue in the face, to no avail, then suddenly someone says "This Treigit character's somewhat suspicious" and his bandwagon is off to the races. It feels orchestrated to me.
I await the second half of DYH's PBPA.
Hmm. What is that supposed to mean?
PuzzleNeat.
Still not paying close enough attention to this yet. Don't fret, it will come.
I must honor your request. You see, I did play a handful (4 or 5) AIM games a few years ago and remember them going by very quickly. This is my first game in the last few years, and my first forum game ever. Hope that answered your question.
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Can you elaborate on this?
Battle Royale Mafia
(Come see who won!)
"I know nothing of the law, only vengence" -Dom, U/G madness
Maybe DYH's next post will bring some better points, but that last one just doesn't do it for me. I don't think breadcrumbing is particularly scummy, except given certain set-ups(when mafia are given false claims, for instance), and early game vote hopping in a 27 person game means very little. I'll leave a FOS Treigit on him, but for now I think my vote is better set on Chuck.
Please tell me your not neutral again...
[The Family]
If no one else shares my opinion of MD, this at least is a wagon I can get behind.
[The Family]
[The Family]
I'm guessing because he's scum trapped on the MD_ wagon and looking for a scapegoat.
unvote
Vote: arimnaes
I won't have time to get to the rest of Treigit's PBPA until Sunday, but this maneuver is vote-worthy right now.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Because his only post in regards to MD was saying that he wouldn't mind him being lynched, but wasn't going to vote for him.
Yeah... what thread doesn't really?
No, no, I assure you, nothing like that this time.
Just the combo of extreme business followed by extreme laziness. Over and over.
This game is very different from any I've played in a long time. We've got people spewing scum tells like the whole town is trying to get lynched. We have multiple attacks against multi0ple people by multiple people. Since when did people on this site stop trying to hide behind one another? Is it because MoT is in the game?
In any case, this game has been vastly more fun to follow than many of recent memory, and if it has to do with the game setup, my congrats to D_M. There's a veritable wealth of info to go back on, as people interact. This is nice. Anyway:
Unvote, Vote MD
Sorry, dude. I really think you have potential, but I can't see that we're going to get a better target than you at this point. The wagon was beginning to dissolve, and not only did you maintain irrational defensiveness, but you were revealed in active deception. How can we let you live?
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are we in any sort of hurry? lets flesh out our multiple targets, eh? in fact, fos cp
4th place at CCC&G Pro Tour
Chances of bad hands (<2 or >4 land):
21: 28.9%
22: 27.5%
23: 26.3%
24: 25.5%
25: 25.1%
26: 25.3%
I sliced open my thumb pretty well at work last night, but I'm sure that by late evening tonight the pain will subside and I'll have some extra time to spread chaos and confusion throughout the thread.
Vote Azrael.
Up to this point, I've read almost all of the Chucklez wagon as a half-joke, so, to try to figure out what's going on with it, I have some PBPA:
Post 186 - Chucklez says he wouldn't mind an MD lynch, but still won't vote for him.
Post 187 - HE7 lists everyone in the game, most with a "vote:" before them, but only actually votes Chucklez (no reason given). I'm not sure what to think of this.
Post 216 - arimnaes quotes post 186 and gives a fos: Chucklez (no reasons given other than the post itself).
Post 254 - Puzzle votes Chucklez saying he's "the only obvious scum" and saying he wants to "release pressure from MD and avoid further leaks." This seems like a half-joke (chosing Chucklez), but there does seem to be some unexplained reasoning there.
Post 263 - bluesoul asks Puzzle to elaborate on his Chucklez vote from post 254.
Post 265 - CropCircles votes Chucklez saying, "for now I think my vote is better set on Chuck [than Treigit]." No reasons given.
post 266 - arimnaes votes Chucklez saying, "this at least is a wagon I can get behind" despite the fact that it isn't really a wagon (he's only the 4th vote), and finally hopping off the MD wagon.
Post 267 - CC asks arimnaes "Why?" in relation to post 266.
Post 268 - Machin Shin wonders why Chucklez is vote-worthy saying he has his own suspicions (no vote).
Post 269 - CC says "arimnaes should be able to clear it up for you." in response to post 268.
Post 270 - DYH lists arimnaes as suspect for jumping on the Chucklez wagon in the way he did. (votes arimnaes).
I have to agree with DYH here. This wagon just seems too shaky for arimnaes to jump on like that especially giving no reason. I would say CC is a little suspect too, but he has been playing like that all game, and nobody pegged him as possibly scum. I have to say, arimnaes definitely looks like scum after this one (and a number of other things that I'm not going to do PBPA on right now).
Vote: arimnaes
Also, I have to agree with Machin Shin. Could someone please clear up what (if anything) is so scummy about Chucklez at this point. I'm just not seeing anything anywhere close to pseudo-wagon worthy (I find it hard to call 4 votes a wagon at this point).
Winner of the Weekly Signature & Avatar Contest Weeks 51, 59, 78, & 118.
I don't care if I was framed for murder if I only got a warning I would let it go.
DYH, thanks for that, just wanted to see if you had a reason (and you've got quite a decent one for a random vote), I won't answer any of those points unless someone (DYH included) continue to find them damning.
Arimnaes, I'd also like to hear what makes the Chuklez wagon best. (I'll accept that the post in question was scummy, but how is he better than anyone else?)
Chucklez may have only slipped one tell, but it was a pretty significant tell.
He adds nothing new with this post except that he wouldn't mind an MD lynch. He does not actually take a stance on anything, he doesn't even FOS, but he tries to keep discussion on MD. I cannot stress enough how strongly I am reading MD as non-mafia. If I had some kind of day-ability this game, I already would have used it.
[The Family]
Krashbot101
Puzzle
magicianofthought
!Chucklez!
Treigit
Arimnaes
Kops723
bluesoul
The only thing MD did which really put me off was chastize the town for voting for him as though it were obvious he was townie and the town was being stupid voting for him and deserved what it got.
Anyway: Tregit, Puzzle, Kops723, Bluesoul. Top 4 right now--not necessarily in that order.
4th place at CCC&G Pro Tour
Chances of bad hands (<2 or >4 land):
21: 28.9%
22: 27.5%
23: 26.3%
24: 25.5%
25: 25.1%
26: 25.3%
Battle Royale Mafia
(Come see who won!)
I agree on the irrational defensiveness, but I'm not sure I follow on how he's actively deceived the town.
PS. MoT probably ought to be replaced.
You started with an overtly random vote. Not especially scummy in and of itself.
Then pointlessly argued with Tregit about it.
Then said this gem:
Which is doubly weird. You are complaining about too many posts--which is usaually good for a game, not bad. I mean, what's the alternative? And then you appear to be complaining that it favors the town. Which is odd for a townie to say. Not impossible, just odd.
Mosschop called you out for that one, and you defended yourself by calling it "speculation" and said it didn't mean a lot.
Then you jumped on the MD wagon, right after he partially claimed, with this:
MD himself called you on the fact that Az had been self-voting the entire game, but that you apparently brushed off with no remarks whatsoever.
Kops jumps in to give an excuse for you for this apparent inconsistency (Az has a posting restriction), and you agree with him that's what you thought (though you hadn't said as much before).
What kind of posting restriction do you think Az has anyway?
Then, after MD (poorly) subliminally claims you give him the smiley (without unvoting). And then come back and unvote without further explanation several hours later. Did he get less suspicious in those hours? Did you forget to unvote before? Or did you just see which way the tide was turning and jump off?
I have no really explination for the super scummy post I made, and looking at it now, I have absolutely no idea why I would make it. It's the hieght of newbery as Scum, and very unhelpful as Town. There is no situation I can think of in which that is a good post.
What I meant by the post was that since I was unable to come to a conclusion about him, I would be happy to follow the will of the Town, but again that is no excuse. It was just a dumb post.
As for the lurking, well I apologize. I have no real reason beyond it being summer, and playing too many games.
Also, I forgot to put in my first post. Nevermind the !s when typing my name, its a pain.
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx
Cube
Oh boy. How'd I manage to miss this one, right at the juicy end of the thread, before I posted?
FOS Carrion Pigeons. That statement sounds so incredible as to be almost tongue-in-cheek, but that's certainly not the impression it conveys. Can we get some clarification on that?
(Good catch, MD)
Hmm, a little bit loose on the information revelation, and the ever-popular counter-punch mafia technique. Overstatement too, it wasn't a strong enough tell to really spring the trap on him, yet. It's not unusual for newer players to devalue fellow townies who seem to be stumbling around; it's a common enough trait in mafia too, and not IMO worth portraying this way:
FOS Cropcircles.
*adds to the flailing/information burst wracking thread*
Vote Azrael.
Then again, this response is interesting. That is, it appears very townie-like.
How experienced are you, !Chucklez?
Vote Azrael.
MoT always needs to be replaced. He's a notorious lurker, and even when he posts, it's complete nonsense. (Admittedly, it's been a long time since I've played a game with him, but this is his MO as I remember it.)
Maybe I'm mistaken, but I thought that it was proven that MD had lied about this being his first game. I suppose I need to go back and find exactly what it was that gave me that idea.
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Your entire post's sole purpose seems to be to put attention back on me. Now I'm not a mafia expert, but I believe that some of the more experienced players will be displeased by your actions here.
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Learn how to get better at Magic
I did not, in fact, start this argument. It was fairly nonsensical to me. The only real advantage to random voting is that mafia tend to "random" vote their partners as a means of separation. But in a game this big, it really doesn't help thin out the crowd any. Random voting, in that aspect, can be very helpful, but IMO the game is too large.
I think that a lot of the Salvation players really play at what I can only call break-neck speed. I started on the GL, which is a whole different animal, much, much slower. You've seen people saying they assumed Day 1 would only last 48 hours at most, which to me is the equivalent of the town suicide. People are already looking at voting lurkers when the game is only a few days old, whereas on the GL I don't even prod until 25 days have passed. It's just really a difference of style. As for the "inherently in favor of the town" comment, I honestly believe that, as scum are forced to post more than they would typically like. By it favoring the town, I mean it's more likely to catch the mafia in a lie or have them give off a tell here than elsewhere. I'm mostly commenting about the MTGS metagame in and of itself. Perhaps it came out wrong but oh well.
I do vote self-voters on principle. Anyone who's played with me in #mafia will be able to confirm that. I feel that they detract from the game and lead the town down a path they might otherwise not want to take, so the obvious thing to do is to eliminate the distraction. My pet peeve is when people give up and hammer themselves, especially when they have a role that is provable, or at the very least testable. (Yes, I'm looking at you, kops.) The difference between the MD case and the Azrael case is that Azrael was not voting himself in a moment of frustration; he has been consistently doing it in a manner that would infer a vote restriction. Whether this is role-based, or possibly some sort of mafia vote-jammer, or anything else like that, I really don't know, and I haven't thought too terribly much about it. I do think it's a vote restriction and not a post restriction (if it is, indeed, a restriction and not "self-imposed"), since he's been playing his usual game. I've got a lot of respect for Az; I think he will at least be able to give a rational defense later whereas MD, at the time, was not being rational at all.
The aggravation with the subliminal claim and the unvote were two separate actions. Nothing had changed since my vote and the subliminal claim to have me think about unvoting MD, and I wasn't happy with the claiming. I will certainly not call it (the claim) unjustified, but most of the steam had gone out of the attempt to run MD up at that point. The unvote later was because several people have tried to invoke what I can only call a "newbie defense", and, to be quite honest, I didn't want to look like a butt and keep on voting. MD may be the lynch, or the night-kill, later on, but s/he is perhaps not the play today. I also have CropCircles' fairly blatant defense of MD to consider as we proceed in the game.
Hope this covered everything.
EBWODP: Axel, I see your "scummy list" doesn't have MD on it at all. You didn't think any of the action earlier was scummy?
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