So, Sutherlands wants both CC and Cyan to ask him to claim before he does? I really don't want him lynched without this chance to defend himself. If it takes a comment by both CC and Cyan to get this, I'm all for it. I don't think we need any more votes on him at the moment because I don't see how CC or Cyan could disagree with a claim at this point, especially after the past 10-or-so posts.
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If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
I really do not know what to think right now. As ZeDorkSlipeur posts I begin to see his general attitude. You seem rather townie to me although you do need to imrpove the way you present things. At any rate I feel that it was effective bandwagon and I am now happy to Unvote.
As for ikerr or Sutherlands, I am undecided. They both have made mistakes which show inexperience. However, ikerr is more expirienced and this makes me feel he may be more scummy. At the same time I do not think we have enough on either of them to lynch right now. We do only have a few days though and if comes to deadline my vote may could down to Sutherlands' claim.
I'm fairly interested as to why your claiming should be up to CC and myself. Can you provide an explanation for this?
Aside from whatever explanation you give..if the town wants you to claim..then you claim. It doesn't matter what 2 random players think. If you don't, all it means is that you'll get lynched, and if you're town(doubtful) and refuse to claim, you're practically giving the mafia free passes to vote you without any backlash. People that hinder the progress of the town cannot be abided.
Also, not wanting to claim because you don't want the mafia to know your role is kind of noble and all, but A)It's Magic Mafia, the chance of someone claiming a role that someone else has are virtually negligible(especially with roles like Szadek being town), and B)as I've said, if you don't claim, you will *surely* get lynched, and then everyone will know everything about your role anyway. Given your behavior so far, especially since the idea of you claiming was brought up, I think that a good claim is the only thing that will save you from being lynched today. So that I'm fully understood, Unvote Ikerr, Vote Sutherlands
I've had a few people tell me to claim, though. If both Cyan and CC tell me to, I will.
hay guiz its an MD gimmick!!! LOLZ!
Confirm Vote: Sutherlands. Saying that you claiming gives the mafia a greater chance of knowing what to claim, is crap. There are...(looks on OCTGN) almost 6000 creatures in the game of Magic. So it's not like claiming one really limits their options.
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I remembered something that, as a replacement, I was yelling at my computer screen hoping one of you in-gamers would think of.
Those of you who remember 8-bit mafia will remember that whenever a different mafia member killed, a different type of kill happened. I think this explains why we see the cards we do. Most likely tommorow, we will see different "kill cards" in the g'yard. [/speculation]
IIRC, there have been no claims to date. I would like to see Sutherlands claim. Vote: Sutherlands. As surprising as this may seem, ZDS' (though I don't like everything I've seen from either) last post was once enough to draw a wagonning post.
Eh. I'm thinking we won't be seeing this happen. Why would Terror be cast so many times then? I'd think it would be more likely for us to see a variant on the Terror theme (like Dark Banishing). I'm still puzzled as to how Terror killed Szadek, which makes me believe it isn't the mechanic but the kill itself that matters here.
My spidey sense says Sutherlands is town. It says no such thing about ikerr. Fayul is also making my face sad, but having never actually played a game with her before I'm not sure what to think.
Jobie's last post was fishy (as in suspicious.) Honestly, "CONFIRM VOTE SUTHERLANDS" simply because he won't name claim, when he's already claimed vanilla town? And you said it yourself; there are thousands of creatures in magic, plus we have black creatures as town, which means his name claim will mean jack either way.
FAYUL, ARE YOU ERESTOR, LEGENDARY CREATURE - FALSE CLAIM?
Ikker seems like he's exhibiting a lot of the classic tells, sadly, most of the classic tells are also things taht can be exhibited by new players. I honestly don't think he's a prime target at the moment, but he's elevated himself above the pack.
Sutherlands looks even better off than Ikker, up until that last post. Please, sir, come up with a much sounder reason as to why you're not claiming, or just come out with it right now. I still like my Cropcircles vote, but, if he doesn't have a decent explanation for this, I think sutherlands is an extremely viable lynch.
No response to my vote for you? Would at least like to give me a real reason for your vote on me, so I might respond?
Quote from Cyan »
Aside from whatever explanation you give..if the town wants you to claim..then you claim.
I'm going to disagree with this statement on the broader side of things. If your claim will not help you clear you in anyway, and you are town, then it isn't always needed. I do think that this sentiment is something we need to get past here on MTGS.
However, Sutherlands' has proven to be rather newb, so I'm going to suggest to him that he do claim. Unless he does claim vanilla, there's a chance that his claim will work toward clearing him in a way that he doesn't yet understand.
BTW, in the past, asking CC if you should claim has 100% of the time been a townie tell.
I'm not a Legend, I just get along well with other people.
Well, because if you ARE misleading the town, you're probably mafia.[/font]
Ok, sure.[/font]
[/font][/font][/font]Um.. because what was said about it being a growth is 100% false, and those are numbers I can defend.
Um... ok?
Well, now you know.
[quote=Treigit;/comments/10508925](First, people have already specified that they've got different than default settings, so it would be nice to clarify in the future, but I'll drop this.)
Now, here are all of ZDS's posts between 31-45:
[quote=Treigit;/comments/10508925] 31-45 would be page 3 if anything.
[font=georgia][font=Verdana]I never claimed to have solid evidence. And I wouldn't expect the deck to be anywhere BUT the table. People usually don't play on the floor or a couch.
How the whole thing started about how I believe they were trying to distance themselves from each other.
Oh most definitely! But first we have to lynch you, since you still have "igit". Although, ikerr is still more suspicious than anyone because of his constant bandwagoning and, as loran put it, jumping on the next wagon when the first one starts to fall.
Actually, I was reading over my old games on mtgnews, and I agree with something Dusk said. I'm gonna stick by my no-roleclaim beginning. Have at a lynch if you want, but it won't save me anyway. And CC: It stays at 100%
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Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
@CC, but what if he is scum? If we ask him to claim, he has to somehow comeup with a false claim and then if he slips up, we will know he is scum. I guess if somebody says "no, I'm not going to claim because you'll lynch me anyways" that is fine. It's just that if somebody says that, they will have to accept that we will lynch them.
And besides, I seriously doubt it would give more info to the scum than they already have, let alone after you are lynched. It could even be benificial if somebody said "I have knowledge that (insert claimed role) is in the game and is town."
Basically there are very few situations where it would be benificial for a townie not to claim. So when I see it, I see it as a mafia who is having a hard time coming up with a false claim.
@Sutherland: I really wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt here, but you're just refusing to allow me to. First, you say that you'll claim if enough people ask you to. Then, you say you'll only claim if CC and Cyan ask you to. Finally, after all the previous offers have been accepted on the town's part, you still refuse to make a claim. At this point, unless someone else really screws up, I can't see any way that my vote is going to be changing from you today.
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If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
Meh, not much I can do about that. Every time I have claimed word for word on mtgnews, people call fake. And why shouldn't they? Plus, I can't quote the PM, so even if wording is the same thing, it can't be proven. I think there's more harm here than good of me claiming. IF enough people believed my claim (of which I have said everything but the name), then I am saved. Then during the night someone dies, and they have more info. Claiming is dumb anyway, it's easy to make up a fake claim, and if you guys turned around based on some name I give you, then you don't deserve to win anyway. I just don't understand why people would vote for me based on play style. As most people have said, there's really no reason to vote for me except that: 1) I slipped up words a couple times and 2) I put a lot of pressure on ZDS. Neither of those are actually good reasons. Now people are voting for me because I won't roleclaim. It won't do any good, I tell you, so I'm not going to do it. I know no one can trust me that I am townie, because the mafia would say it too. At the same time, many people acknowledge that ikerr is a better vote, and quite a few say that i'm not mafia. I play this game to have fun, and while I like to stay alive to be in the game, mafia games really frustrate me because no one listens to reason, as I feel like is the case here. I mean, just think about how illogical it is to vote for someone you think is less likely to be scum than someone else because they won't claim. Rediculous.
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Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
Still getting a newb town vibe from Sutho (though Treigit has made a little headway with me there - I'm a little less confident). His failure to understand the value of a claim is the perfect example of a new town player. I did it myself in Newb 4 to the detriment of the town.
Regardless of my own views you should claim - the information you reveal will only be revealled when you die anyway, and if there is a chance of clearing you I would see it.
--------------
I hold to my assertion that WhytePanther's attack on Sutherlands was scummy. While I can see a number of arguments against Sutho (and if I didn't see newb written all over him I might pursue them) those two that WP rasied were NOT valid.
I have already explained why Sutho was not being hypocritical.
Neither of the quotes presented were contradictory - the first was merely a paraphrase, and the second was not a contradiction but an omission. Given my views on Sutho (newb) I understood where he was coming from, and saw his intent - which in my mind did not appear to be contradictory.
Unfortunately my vote on WhytePanther achieved nothing and I should pursue other avenues. I'll revote when I've decided what to do. I still don't like WP's attack.
Okay, not going to bother with that post (since now I read the whole thread.)
Reasons to lynch Suthie:
-Linking 2 players
-Refuses to give the evidence he claims to have for such link
-Vote based on Joke (and to clarify, in different ways than mine on 'noid in French)
-Double wagoning in said link
-Evasiveness when asked for evidence
-Refuses to claim
-Equating number of votes with guilt
-Playing for survival
-The Following contradictions:
*Townie lynchers/scum lynchers most likely to be investigated
*Everyone suspicious of ZDS and Cyan together/just ZDS
*Library bussiness
*Knows "table" means in play, still using it as basis for attack
*Townies do/don't want to get other townies lynched
*Claims he doesn't see a reason to attack poor logic, but does so
*Will claim when X says so/Subset X1/Won't claim
What did I miss?
Perma-Vote: Sutherlands*
*Perma-Vote not actual game mechanic. Side effects may include others not being able to take a joke.
@MatJoe: Inevitably, the mafia can always claim any random card and say "vanilla." If someone's claim helps them no more then this, then claiming only hands out info. They're better off argueing against their attackers.
I didn't realize that Sutherlands was so experienced. This changes things quite a bit. I was letting him off because most of his mistakes are in line with newb mistakes. For now, I'll FOS Suth and also call for a claim.
Wrong, answered all questions when they were asked, with enough information that any person of NORMAL intelligence should be able to know what i'm talking about.
Wrong, and you're misrepresenting what I said. i said that the town obviously believes that he is mafia more than they believe i am mafia. Which at the time was certainly true.
*Townies do/don't want to get other townies lynched
Again, misrepresenting me. I never said they wanted to get other townies lynched, i said they would rather have someone else lynched than themselves. True for me certainly.
CC: Yup, like I said, I've played mafia before. Because of my play-style, I pretty much only get lynched when I'm town. Here's not gonna be any different. I stick by what i said about no claiming. You all can find it out when I die. If I had access to gatherer right now, I would figure out exactly how hard it is to tell from what I've said.
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Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
EBWODP: Actually, the more treigit talks, the more I think that he's scum. I hope that people will go after him tomorrow, since he keeps misrepresenting what I said. On the other hand, I believe passdog may be town, although I'm definitely less sure on that, since a mafia could very likely defend a townie.
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Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
ZOMG YOU'RE RIGHT! SINCE OBVIOUSLY IT'S IMPOSSIBLE THAT THE MOD ACTUALLY CAME UP WITH A THEME FOR THE CARDS!
Moron.
Care to explain the theme of Szadek, Lord of Secrets and Abbey Matron?
Also calling people a moron does not help.
In addition, why would you set out conditions where you would claim if you did not plan to claim when they were met? That more than anything does not bode well with me.
Jobie's last post was fishy (as in suspicious.) Honestly, "CONFIRM VOTE SUTHERLANDS" simply because he won't name claim, when he's already claimed vanilla town? And you said it yourself; there are thousands of creatures in magic, plus we have black creatures as town, which means his name claim will mean jack either way.
Heard of counterclaim much?
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Care to explain the theme of Szadek, Lord of Secrets and Abbey Matron?
Also calling people a moron does not help.
In addition, why would you set out conditions where you would claim if you did not plan to claim when they were met? That more than anything does not bode well with me.
If you don't want to be called a moron then don't say what I said was crap. I CAN see part of a pattern, both with my role and with cards in the grave. At the time I said it, I didn't want to claim, but was essentially giving veto power to the town if they wanted it that much. Since then, I reread old threads on news to find out about my history in mafia, and since then have decided that I wasn't going to claim no matter what. Like I said, coming up with a role wouldn't be hard, so if I was mafia you can bet I would do it to save my skin, right?
Between 5 and 10 games on news, and probably around 10 games IRL, although games IRL are smaller (generally around 10 people) and have much more to do with judging people's reactions than online stuff, where you can't read people except what they type.
Quote from Jobie »
Heard of counterclaim much?
Lol, yeah.
Quote from Counterclaimer »
NOOOO! He's lying!!!!1 He can't be that particular vanilla card, because I'M that particular vanilla card
There certainly aren't many vanilla cards in magic. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if he put out 4 people with my rolename, just because it's a magic deck.
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Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
Actually, I was reading over my old games on mtgnews, and I agree with something Dusk said. I'm gonna stick by my no-roleclaim beginning. Have at a lynch if you want, but it won't save me anyway. And CC: It stays at 100%
You do notice that it says Dusk_ is the town LVP of that game right?
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EBWODP: Actually, the more treigit talks, the more I think that he's scum. I hope that people will go after him tomorrow, since he keeps misrepresenting what I said. On the other hand, I believe passdog may be town, although I'm definitely less sure on that, since a mafia could very likely defend a townie.
Quote from Sutherlands »
There certainly aren't many vanilla cards in magic. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if he put out 4 people with my rolename, just because it's a magic deck
X
Vote: Sutherlands
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
That's a very beautiful post there, axelrod. I appreciate all the thought you put into that, and the effort is simply amazing.
11 by my count, only 2 more!
I would agree a bit more detail would be nice Axel.
And yes, no one should put another on before everyone can chime in and we are sure.
Vote Count.
I don't buy the "I changed my mind," thing at all.
At any rate, there is enough pressure. If you are planning on not dieing do it now. If you are sticking to your guns on no claim, and everyone gets to chime in, I am willing to lynch.
Oh noes!
I NEVER CLAIMED TO HAVE EVIDENCE, JUST A FEELING!
That's how it started, but I didn't start a bandwagon because of that.
Um... huh?
Wrong, answered all questions when they were asked, with enough information that any person of NORMAL intelligence should be able to know what i'm talking about.
Yup... so?
Wrong, and you're misrepresenting what I said. i said that the town obviously believes that he is mafia more than they believe i am mafia. Which at the time was certainly true.
Yup... so?
No contradiction there
Whoopide doo
Um... contradictory to what? I was the one making sense on that issue.
Absolutely false on both accounts
Again, misrepresenting me. I never said they wanted to get other townies lynched, i said they would rather have someone else lynched than themselves. True for me certainly.
quotes?
Just changed my mind, that's all.
Rational thought.
CC: Yup, like I said, I've played mafia before. Because of my play-style, I pretty much only get lynched when I'm town. Here's not gonna be any different. I stick by what i said about no claiming. You all can find it out when I die. If I had access to gatherer right now, I would figure out exactly how hard it is to tell from what I've said.
Ad to my list: ad homs (in the strictest defenition), and OMGUS
I have to go to class now, but here's a preview about things to come:
Proof of 7 lies in the quoted post, and reason (if it's not readily apparent to others) of how many points that he dismissed are scum tells.
Tell me this: how would me claiming IN ANY WAY help the town? IN ANY WAY? Even if I were to claim, no one would stop voting for me. I would still be lynched. In that case it would not help anyone at all (not even the mafia) so why give up something that I am determined not to do?
Also, what reason do you have to not buy the "I changed my mind" thing? Is it because mafia often refuse to claim? Must be it! Wait, no that's not true. Is it because I didn't expect both Cyan and CC to want me to claim? YES! Oh... no... please provide reasoning.
Quote from Treigit »
Ad to my list: ad homs (in the strictest defenition), and OMGUS
I have to go to class now, but here's a preview about things to come:
Proof of 7 lies in the quoted post, and reason (if it's not readily apparent to others) of how many points that he dismissed are scum tells.
When did I say that your points were wrong because you were dumb? Never. I took each thing you said, and refuted it. That's classic townie sign, right? Refuting arguments? And I'd love to see how you are going to show everything is a scum tell. In fact, I'll bet you on it. I will bet any magic card that I am not scum. If you're that sure, take me up on it.
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Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
EBWDP: I'm not liking his encouragement to vote. Unvote Sutherlands (And before someone can misinterpret me, I THINK HE'S SCUM AND THAT WE SHOULD LYNCH HIM. I TAKE ALL RESPONSIBILTY FOR HIS LYNCH EVEN IF MY VOTE ISN'T ON HIM AT SUCH TIME.)
I hereby nominate myself to place the lynching vote in case he is a Super saint/Judas role (I assume that's a role that kills the lyncher)
I aint voting Suth just yet. I do think he's a very screwed townie (See Holmes in Seinfeld), but i would like to hear a claim just so everyone would calm down.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
EBWODP, Sutherlands, STOP the damn farce. Just claim already..., if you're so sure you're going to die, it cant hurt to claim. But it might just save your damn life.
Magic is so big that the mafia probalby has plenty of safe claims anyhow
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Also, if there are people out there who will ... no, nevermind. Even if I get people's words that they will take their vote off of me, I will not claim. And like I said, I don't think mafia claims are that obvious right now. Still, name one way that claiming will help me or the town.
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Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
Tell me this: how would me claiming IN ANY WAY help the town? IN ANY WAY? Even if I were to claim, no one would stop voting for me.
But you are not dead. So long as no one new votes for you, you do not die. And I am telling you claiming will help me believe you.
I would still be lynched. In that case it would not help anyone at all (not even the mafia) so why give up something that I am determined not to do?
Exactly. It helps no one, but not doing it seems scummy. No doubt, even if you claim now, the fact it took so long will look scummy. But not as scummy.
Also, what reason do you have to not buy the "I changed my mind" thing? Is it because mafia often refuse to claim? Must be it! Wait, no that's not true. Is it because I didn't expect both Cyan and CC to want me to claim? YES! Oh... no... please provide reasoning.
But that is the point. You were not actually trying to ask them. You did not care what they said, you just hoped that they would shield you. You were trying to use them, and this is scummy.
When did I say that your points were wrong because you were dumb?
You insulted how smart he was and said he does not use rational thinking. I believe you did use ad homs, yes.
Well, I am going to say it again, so that everyone can see
I AM NOT GOING TO CLAIM.
I'm sorry if that makes you think I'm scummy. Really it shouldn't, because that's really not something that mafia would do. So please, don't mention me claiming anymore. If you feel that I am scummy for not claiming, then I don't understand why, but just vote for me. Nothing is going to change how this day turns out, so just get it over with.
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Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
@Sutherlands: Sorry for the last post I made, since it really is obvious that you're not going to claim at this point. It was mainly meant as a "chime-in" for SorryGuy in that in the current situation, my vote is just not going to change.
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If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
Oh, please. He's not getting counterclaimed on vanilla townie, and there's a 23/Thousands chance that he would pick a card that exists in the game if he was scum false claiming. Besides which, he doesn't even have to false claim unless the scum are evident by their cards (unlikely) and have not been given safe claims.
Don't misconstrue me, I think it would be in Sutherlands' best interest, and the best interest of the town, if he claimed. But his refusal to name claim when he's already claimed vanilla is little additional reason to find him scummy.
Seriously, people, this is MD all over again. Yes, he's committed scum tells. No, he doesn't seem to know any better. I believe ikerr has already been PBPA'd, but I will gladly go over the case against him again if it will convince you that he is a better lynch target.
That's a very beautiful post there, axelrod. I appreciate all the thought you put into that, and the effort is simply amazing.
11 by my count, only 2 more!
Well, guess what, you're right.
unvote
Sorry. I am experiencing my own little batch of frustration right now in another game which we won't mention here.
There is no good reason not to claim though. Whatever info you think it gives away is given away anyway if you are lynched.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Which is why im not voting sutherlands int he first place. At the same time, Sutherlands' attitude and his refusal to claim may have doomed him. If this is what you learned through a bunch of games on Mtgnews, then you have issues man.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
To be more precise about the vote. What I was reacting to was a combination of three separate scummy things; attacking someone who was attacking you and telling the town to lynch them tomorrow when you come up town. Giving a completely equivocal opinion on someone - I don't think he's scum, but he might be. and an indirect vanilla claim (didn't want to just come out and say it) while suggesting you are the most generic and common of cards - which would be the easiest to fake.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
After everything with Hawkeye(who also mostly plays at news) in Trek Mafia, I Think that this mentality is more of a failing in how people learn to play at news than anything else. I'd really like to see Sutherlands claim, but, I don't think he's a better target than Ikerr anymore. Unvote Sutherlands, Vote Ikerr
Which is why im not voting sutherlands int he first place. At the same time, Sutherlands' attitude and his refusal to claim may have doomed him. If this is what you learned through a bunch of games on Mtgnews, then you have issues man.
After everything with Hawkeye(who also mostly plays at news) in Trek Mafia, I Think that this mentality is more of a failing in how people learn to play at news than anything else. I'd really like to see Sutherlands claim, but, I don't think he's a better target than Ikerr anymore. Unvote Sutherlands, Vote Ikerr
This is not something I have "learned" so much as it is just a way I want to play the game. I feel that claiming detracts from the game, and is pointless. That being said, I want to stand by that and get that out of the game.
To be more precise about the vote. What I was reacting to was a combination of three separate scummy things; attacking someone who was attacking you and telling the town to lynch them tomorrow when you come up town.
People do this all of the time. I feel like he was completely misrepresenting what I said. As such, it seems like he's bending things to get me to finally go.
Giving a completely equivocal opinion on someone - I don't think he's scum, but he might be.
Ok, I understand this. I was just trying to give out what I believe before I get lynched (which with 2 unvotes I may not anymore). Anyway, what I was trying to say is that I believe that he is townie. That being said, I don't know enough to stand behind it 100%.
and an indirect vanilla claim (didn't want to just come out and say it) while suggesting you are the most generic and common of cards - which would be the easiest to fake.
I'm sorry, there's nothing I can do about it. That's what non-cop, non-doctor townies are. I have no abilities. I am a vanilla role.
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Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
Sutherlands, claiming is an essential part of the game. It's an advantage the town should have and provides the mafia with a little more difficulty (See LotR mafia for a bad mafia claim *cough Fayul=Erestor cough*). That said, it involves more strategy for the mafia, and thus i cant understand why you think its wrong?
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Oh, please. He's not getting counterclaimed on vanilla townie, and there's a 23/Thousands chance that he would pick a card that exists in the game if he was scum false claiming. Besides which, he doesn't even have to false claim unless the scum are evident by their cards (unlikely) and have not been given safe claims.
We could at least take that chance we get lucky.
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As for ikerr or Sutherlands, I am undecided. They both have made mistakes which show inexperience. However, ikerr is more expirienced and this makes me feel he may be more scummy. At the same time I do not think we have enough on either of them to lynch right now. We do only have a few days though and if comes to deadline my vote may could down to Sutherlands' claim.
Aside from whatever explanation you give..if the town wants you to claim..then you claim. It doesn't matter what 2 random players think. If you don't, all it means is that you'll get lynched, and if you're town(doubtful) and refuse to claim, you're practically giving the mafia free passes to vote you without any backlash. People that hinder the progress of the town cannot be abided.
Also, not wanting to claim because you don't want the mafia to know your role is kind of noble and all, but A)It's Magic Mafia, the chance of someone claiming a role that someone else has are virtually negligible(especially with roles like Szadek being town), and B)as I've said, if you don't claim, you will *surely* get lynched, and then everyone will know everything about your role anyway. Given your behavior so far, especially since the idea of you claiming was brought up, I think that a good claim is the only thing that will save you from being lynched today. So that I'm fully understood, Unvote Ikerr, Vote Sutherlands
hay guiz its an MD gimmick!!! LOLZ!
Confirm Vote: Sutherlands. Saying that you claiming gives the mafia a greater chance of knowing what to claim, is crap. There are...(looks on OCTGN) almost 6000 creatures in the game of Magic. So it's not like claiming one really limits their options.
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Moron.
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Eh. I'm thinking we won't be seeing this happen. Why would Terror be cast so many times then? I'd think it would be more likely for us to see a variant on the Terror theme (like Dark Banishing). I'm still puzzled as to how Terror killed Szadek, which makes me believe it isn't the mechanic but the kill itself that matters here.
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Jobie's last post was fishy (as in suspicious.) Honestly, "CONFIRM VOTE SUTHERLANDS" simply because he won't name claim, when he's already claimed vanilla town? And you said it yourself; there are thousands of creatures in magic, plus we have black creatures as town, which means his name claim will mean jack either way.
FAYUL, ARE YOU ERESTOR, LEGENDARY CREATURE - FALSE CLAIM?
I'm going to disagree with this statement on the broader side of things. If your claim will not help you clear you in anyway, and you are town, then it isn't always needed. I do think that this sentiment is something we need to get past here on MTGS.
However, Sutherlands' has proven to be rather newb, so I'm going to suggest to him that he do claim. Unless he does claim vanilla, there's a chance that his claim will work toward clearing him in a way that he doesn't yet understand.
BTW, in the past, asking CC if you should claim has 100% of the time been a townie tell.
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And besides, I seriously doubt it would give more info to the scum than they already have, let alone after you are lynched. It could even be benificial if somebody said "I have knowledge that (insert claimed role) is in the game and is town."
Basically there are very few situations where it would be benificial for a townie not to claim. So when I see it, I see it as a mafia who is having a hard time coming up with a false claim.
<XylBot> ||| MAFIABOT || sk: LookingforReality (Copycat) |||
<XylBot> ||| MAFIABOT || survivor: matjoeman (Anarchist) |||
<XylBot> ||| MAFIABOT || town: kops (Anarchist) |||
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Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
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Still getting a newb town vibe from Sutho (though Treigit has made a little headway with me there - I'm a little less confident). His failure to understand the value of a claim is the perfect example of a new town player. I did it myself in Newb 4 to the detriment of the town.
Regardless of my own views you should claim - the information you reveal will only be revealled when you die anyway, and if there is a chance of clearing you I would see it.
--------------
I hold to my assertion that WhytePanther's attack on Sutherlands was scummy. While I can see a number of arguments against Sutho (and if I didn't see newb written all over him I might pursue them) those two that WP rasied were NOT valid.
I have already explained why Sutho was not being hypocritical.
Neither of the quotes presented were contradictory - the first was merely a paraphrase, and the second was not a contradiction but an omission. Given my views on Sutho (newb) I understood where he was coming from, and saw his intent - which in my mind did not appear to be contradictory.
Unfortunately my vote on WhytePanther achieved nothing and I should pursue other avenues. I'll revote when I've decided what to do. I still don't like WP's attack.
Reasons to lynch Suthie:
-Linking 2 players
-Refuses to give the evidence he claims to have for such link
-Vote based on Joke (and to clarify, in different ways than mine on 'noid in French)
-Double wagoning in said link
-Evasiveness when asked for evidence
-Refuses to claim
-Equating number of votes with guilt
-Playing for survival
-The Following contradictions:
*Townie lynchers/scum lynchers most likely to be investigated
*Everyone suspicious of ZDS and Cyan together/just ZDS
*Library bussiness
*Knows "table" means in play, still using it as basis for attack
*Townies do/don't want to get other townies lynched
*Claims he doesn't see a reason to attack poor logic, but does so
*Will claim when X says so/Subset X1/Won't claim
What did I miss?
Perma-Vote: Sutherlands*
*Perma-Vote not actual game mechanic. Side effects may include others not being able to take a joke.
I didn't realize that Sutherlands was so experienced. This changes things quite a bit. I was letting him off because most of his mistakes are in line with newb mistakes. For now, I'll FOS Suth and also call for a claim.
Still want a response from Fayul, though.
[The Family]
I NEVER CLAIMED TO HAVE EVIDENCE, JUST A FEELING!
That's how it started, but I didn't start a bandwagon because of that.
Um... huh?
Wrong, answered all questions when they were asked, with enough information that any person of NORMAL intelligence should be able to know what i'm talking about.
Yup... so?
Wrong, and you're misrepresenting what I said. i said that the town obviously believes that he is mafia more than they believe i am mafia. Which at the time was certainly true.
Yup... so?
No contradiction there
Whoopide doo
Um... contradictory to what? I was the one making sense on that issue.
Absolutely false on both accounts
Again, misrepresenting me. I never said they wanted to get other townies lynched, i said they would rather have someone else lynched than themselves. True for me certainly.
quotes?
Just changed my mind, that's all.
Rational thought.
CC: Yup, like I said, I've played mafia before. Because of my play-style, I pretty much only get lynched when I'm town. Here's not gonna be any different. I stick by what i said about no claiming. You all can find it out when I die. If I had access to gatherer right now, I would figure out exactly how hard it is to tell from what I've said.
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Care to explain the theme of Szadek, Lord of Secrets and Abbey Matron?
Also calling people a moron does not help.
In addition, why would you set out conditions where you would claim if you did not plan to claim when they were met? That more than anything does not bode well with me.
Heard of counterclaim much?
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If you don't want to be called a moron then don't say what I said was crap. I CAN see part of a pattern, both with my role and with cards in the grave. At the time I said it, I didn't want to claim, but was essentially giving veto power to the town if they wanted it that much. Since then, I reread old threads on news to find out about my history in mafia, and since then have decided that I wasn't going to claim no matter what. Like I said, coming up with a role wouldn't be hard, so if I was mafia you can bet I would do it to save my skin, right?
Between 5 and 10 games on news, and probably around 10 games IRL, although games IRL are smaller (generally around 10 people) and have much more to do with judging people's reactions than online stuff, where you can't read people except what they type.
Lol, yeah.
There certainly aren't many vanilla cards in magic. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if he put out 4 people with my rolename, just because it's a magic deck.
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You do notice that it says Dusk_ is the town LVP of that game right?
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X
Vote: Sutherlands
11 by my count, only 2 more!
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I would agree a bit more detail would be nice Axel.
And yes, no one should put another on before everyone can chime in and we are sure.
Vote Count.
I don't buy the "I changed my mind," thing at all.
At any rate, there is enough pressure. If you are planning on not dieing do it now. If you are sticking to your guns on no claim, and everyone gets to chime in, I am willing to lynch.
Ad to my list: ad homs (in the strictest defenition), and OMGUS
I have to go to class now, but here's a preview about things to come:
Proof of 7 lies in the quoted post, and reason (if it's not readily apparent to others) of how many points that he dismissed are scum tells.
Also, what reason do you have to not buy the "I changed my mind" thing? Is it because mafia often refuse to claim? Must be it! Wait, no that's not true. Is it because I didn't expect both Cyan and CC to want me to claim? YES! Oh... no... please provide reasoning.
When did I say that your points were wrong because you were dumb? Never. I took each thing you said, and refuted it. That's classic townie sign, right? Refuting arguments? And I'd love to see how you are going to show everything is a scum tell. In fact, I'll bet you on it. I will bet any magic card that I am not scum. If you're that sure, take me up on it.
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Unvote Sutherlands (And before someone can misinterpret me, I THINK HE'S SCUM AND THAT WE SHOULD LYNCH HIM. I TAKE ALL RESPONSIBILTY FOR HIS LYNCH EVEN IF MY VOTE ISN'T ON HIM AT SUCH TIME.)
I hereby nominate myself to place the lynching vote in case he is a Super saint/Judas role (I assume that's a role that kills the lyncher)
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Magic is so big that the mafia probalby has plenty of safe claims anyhow
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Also, if there are people out there who will ... no, nevermind. Even if I get people's words that they will take their vote off of me, I will not claim. And like I said, I don't think mafia claims are that obvious right now. Still, name one way that claiming will help me or the town.
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But you are not dead. So long as no one new votes for you, you do not die. And I am telling you claiming will help me believe you.
Exactly. It helps no one, but not doing it seems scummy. No doubt, even if you claim now, the fact it took so long will look scummy. But not as scummy.
But that is the point. You were not actually trying to ask them. You did not care what they said, you just hoped that they would shield you. You were trying to use them, and this is scummy.
You insulted how smart he was and said he does not use rational thinking. I believe you did use ad homs, yes.
I AM NOT GOING TO CLAIM.
I'm sorry if that makes you think I'm scummy. Really it shouldn't, because that's really not something that mafia would do. So please, don't mention me claiming anymore. If you feel that I am scummy for not claiming, then I don't understand why, but just vote for me. Nothing is going to change how this day turns out, so just get it over with.
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(With 24 alive, it takes 13 to lynch)
Sutherlands (11) - silicon, Matjoeman, ZeDorkSlipeur, WhytePanther, Treigit, ikerr, Good&Evil, Jobie, atlseal, Cyan, Axelrod
ZeDorkSlipeur (1) - Pod
CropCircles (1) - Fayul
ikerr (4) - Sutherlands, arimnaes, loran16, AbbeyGargoyle
WhytePanther (1) - Passdog
Fayul (2) - Crippled_Fist, CropCircles
Oh, please. He's not getting counterclaimed on vanilla townie, and there's a 23/Thousands chance that he would pick a card that exists in the game if he was scum false claiming. Besides which, he doesn't even have to false claim unless the scum are evident by their cards (unlikely) and have not been given safe claims.
Don't misconstrue me, I think it would be in Sutherlands' best interest, and the best interest of the town, if he claimed. But his refusal to name claim when he's already claimed vanilla is little additional reason to find him scummy.
Seriously, people, this is MD all over again. Yes, he's committed scum tells. No, he doesn't seem to know any better. I believe ikerr has already been PBPA'd, but I will gladly go over the case against him again if it will convince you that he is a better lynch target.
Well, guess what, you're right.
unvote
Sorry. I am experiencing my own little batch of frustration right now in another game which we won't mention here.
There is no good reason not to claim though. Whatever info you think it gives away is given away anyway if you are lynched.
Which is why im not voting sutherlands int he first place. At the same time, Sutherlands' attitude and his refusal to claim may have doomed him. If this is what you learned through a bunch of games on Mtgnews, then you have issues man.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
This is not something I have "learned" so much as it is just a way I want to play the game. I feel that claiming detracts from the game, and is pointless. That being said, I want to stand by that and get that out of the game.
Yes
People do this all of the time. I feel like he was completely misrepresenting what I said. As such, it seems like he's bending things to get me to finally go. Ok, I understand this. I was just trying to give out what I believe before I get lynched (which with 2 unvotes I may not anymore). Anyway, what I was trying to say is that I believe that he is townie. That being said, I don't know enough to stand behind it 100%. I'm sorry, there's nothing I can do about it. That's what non-cop, non-doctor townies are. I have no abilities. I am a vanilla role.
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Sutherlands, claiming is an essential part of the game. It's an advantage the town should have and provides the mafia with a little more difficulty (See LotR mafia for a bad mafia claim *cough Fayul=Erestor cough*). That said, it involves more strategy for the mafia, and thus i cant understand why you think its wrong?
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
We could at least take that chance we get lucky.
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