I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Amongst all the bickering a raised voice is heard.
"You, come here!" commands one of the images of Bayushi Shoju.
Startled, everyone turns to face CropCircles who has drawn his katana, aiming it at Loran16.
"What is this?" he asks.
The ten other personalities step back, forming a circle around CropCircles and Loran.
"You know very well what this is," he begins, "I challenge you to a duel."
Loran slowly draws his katana. The spirit of Emperor Hantei the 38th appears hovering above the combatants who are now measuring one another with deep stares as they pace slowly in a circle, blades held at the ready.
"It shall be done." Hantei says, clapping his hands.
It is Loran16 who lashes out first, blade striking blade, as CropCircles easily deflects the blow. He laughs, then mutters,
"You are not skilled with the blade, it seems."
He's right. Loran looks incredibly uncomfortable handling the unwieldy katana. Sensing weakness, CropCircles siezes the moment to lunge forward, and the strong attack sends the sword flying from Loran's grasp, knocking him to the floor. Caught off-guard by his overwhelming success, CropCircles stares blankly at the quivering creature before him. Blood trickles from Loran's lip.
"You should not have given me this moment, Samurai." , the prone figure hisses. From within his boot, Loran draws a dagger, sliding it into CropCircles' side. Smoke eminates from the wound, poison, no doubt.
CropCircles musters the strength for another blow, however, removing Loran's head from his body. As blood gushes to the Throne Room floor, the dead man's visage slowly transforms into someone else...
It is the pretty face of a woman, the prettiest seen in Rokugan. Loran was Bayushi Kachiko, mafia roleblocker.
CropCircles kneels down and leans heavily on his blade hilt. He is wounded, but he will survive.
The late Emperor smiles. "Well done, victor." He then fades away into the darkness.
Votes are reset. With 11 alive it is 6 to lynch. Deadline has been extended to Saturday, November 4th, at 11pm ET.
Meh...First game as mafia on the site....and i get daykilled. Go Scum.
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Mafia MVP Harry Potter Mafia!
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
You're the man CC...
What tipped you off to that being a fake claim? It seemed at least plausible to me...
Do tell.
Also, this appears to be confirmation (in part) that mafia are of the Scorpion Clan, or possibly just the Bayushi family.
-Alpha
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Quote from TheFooFish »
Lies! -I'm Buffy Summers, town tracker. I used my ability on you and saw that you didn't use any abilities before the game started. My flavor is I was sucked through a mysterious space-time portal and I'm here to kill all the vampires, and my tracking ability is a combination of my Slayer and Native American skills.
So, it's day 1, there's a dead scum, and Puzzle and CropCircles are town.
Seems good.
emphasis mine...
This is not definite...could be a scum ploy, mutual attacking of each other. Not saying it's likely, but it's not a write-off. CC I'm pretty sure about.
-Alpha
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Quote from TheFooFish »
Lies! -I'm Buffy Summers, town tracker. I used my ability on you and saw that you didn't use any abilities before the game started. My flavor is I was sucked through a mysterious space-time portal and I'm here to kill all the vampires, and my tracking ability is a combination of my Slayer and Native American skills.
I honestly have no idea what bussing is...couldn't find it anywhere on mafiascum either...so forgive my stupidity.
Quote from Pod »
@:AI, The Bayushi family were pretty much the ones responsible for the coup within the Scorp clan.
I realize this, but I wasn't certain how many were even in the Bayushi family at the time of the coup.
-Alpha
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Quote from TheFooFish »
Lies! -I'm Buffy Summers, town tracker. I used my ability on you and saw that you didn't use any abilities before the game started. My flavor is I was sucked through a mysterious space-time portal and I'm here to kill all the vampires, and my tracking ability is a combination of my Slayer and Native American skills.
I honestly have no idea what bussing is...couldn't find it anywhere on mafiascum either...so forgive my stupidity.
-Alpha
Bussing is the act of attacking a fellow scum member to help clear yourself.
Also, lorans claim stunk, a lot. I think it was rather obvious he was lying, I commend cc for shooting, many on this site wouldn't have. Lorans wagon interests me greatly. I didn't find him all too scummy before the rather bad claim, and yet his wagon grew very very fast both times. Either we have a town very uncharacteristic of salvation, or the mafia were helping push there buddy.
Puzzle looks cleared. Though I hear he's mediocre as town. Oh well.
You're telling me that there's no chance he was bussing? Why just because he started the bandwagon?
Quote from Pod »
Loran-Wagon Puzzle
Pod
AI
ZDS
Pibbly
And yet Pibs and I are the only one's 'possibly' guilty of bussing.
Quote from Pod »
Pibbly's and AI's plausible bussings.
Quote from Pod »
AI's a plausible bussing. None of the others really seem that way inclined though.
What happened to Pibbly's 'plausibility'?
-Alpha
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Quote from TheFooFish »
Lies! -I'm Buffy Summers, town tracker. I used my ability on you and saw that you didn't use any abilities before the game started. My flavor is I was sucked through a mysterious space-time portal and I'm here to kill all the vampires, and my tracking ability is a combination of my Slayer and Native American skills.
Anyone now like to doubt the possibility of false names being provided?
My feeling out of this is that Puzzle is probably town, and that AI in particular looks bad. loran urged the vig of CPE even more than I did, and cpe named loran as his scummiest guy, so I'm certainly happy to lay off cpe even if I'm not fond of his lurking.
I had Alpha initially, though, and I'm always happy to return to my early hunches. I really, really don't like his attempt in post 313 to keep suspicion on Puzzle- if he wants to consider that Puzzle is not completely cleared he's welcome, but to try and float the idea that Puzzle's push on loran is scummy is an unnecessary effort to muddy the waters.
And as I said pages ago, he's just trying too hard. Even in the last page, he jumps right in and accepts loran's claim and supports it with more lore reasons, then after loran dies he jumps in quickly to suck up to CC and to try and sneak in the idea that loran's death confirms in some way that the mafia are the Scorpion/Bayushi- of course, all it actually does is confirm that some mafia are Bayushi, which is obvious from the set-up. I don't see why someone would try and emphasise that loran's death says anything about the makeup of the mafia, unless you had a vested interest in people believing it...
My feeling out of this is that Puzzle is probably town, and that AI in particular looks bad... I had Alpha initially, though, and I'm always happy to return to my early hunches. I really, really don't like his attempt in post 313 to keep suspicion on Puzzle- if he wants to consider that Puzzle is not completely cleared he's welcome, but to try and float the idea that Puzzle's push on loran is scummy is an unnecessary effort to muddy the waters.
What makes a Puzzle push on Loran any less scummy than anyone else's push on Loran? Can you give me an answer for that?
Quote from RafK »
And as I said pages ago, he's just trying too hard. Even in the last page, he jumps right in and accepts loran's claim and supports it with more lore reasons, then after loran dies he jumps in quickly to suck up to CC and to try and sneak in the idea that loran's death confirms in some way that the mafia are the Scorpion/Bayushi- of course, all it actually does is confirm that some mafia are Bayushi, which is obvious from the set-up. I don't see why someone would try and emphasise that loran's death says anything about the makeup of the mafia, unless you had a vested interest in people believing it...
All that I said was that Loran's claim made sense from a 'lore' standpoint. I analyzed the claim, and couldn't find any blatant miscues, mistakes, etc with regards to the story/timeline. I didn't 'suck up' to CC any more than you did (which wasn't much), I just said in friendlier terms, that it was a good play, one that I wouldn't have been able to make. But you're right...I definitely should have said, 'Meh...it's just one dead scum, lucksack' That should have increased my 'towniness' for sure!
Also, I'm trying to see what info can be gleaned from Loran's death...it's constructive. It's what we have to work with now that we have a dead mafia.
-Alpha
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Quote from TheFooFish »
Lies! -I'm Buffy Summers, town tracker. I used my ability on you and saw that you didn't use any abilities before the game started. My flavor is I was sucked through a mysterious space-time portal and I'm here to kill all the vampires, and my tracking ability is a combination of my Slayer and Native American skills.
well, 1 dead scum, good job CC not using that on me. Now, I think that my next suspect was pibbly, but regarding the fact that he was the first on loran wagon take 2, I am suspicious of ZDS and AI for possibility of busing, and other reasons. I also really doubt falseclaims, if lorans role was really that tiny. Pod has also become more townish in my eyes, my list would probably be
1. AI
2. ZDS
3. Puzz, you have just been acting wierd all game, and I dont know what to make out of it.
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Quote from hotshizzle »
<hotshizle> WINE IN FRONT OF MEAL
<hotshizle> i think
What makes a Puzzle push on Loran any less scummy than anyone else's push on Loran?
is that it's the wrong question.
The right question is what makes you think Puzzle's push on Loran was scummy at all?
You appear to be approaching this with the agenda of tainting Puzzle. Faced with reasonable suspicion, you choose to lash out sarcastically at me. You've got an adversarial attitude going. I consider it most likely that these are the tells of someone who is scum.
Re: people saying that loran's character wasn't major. Thanks for telling me. I had been under the impression he was; before he got killed, the only two people to comment on the flavour of it (arim and Alpha) both seemed to approve of it. I'm glad I smelled a bit of a rat even without knowing that the flavour wasn't too good, my radar hasn't been the best lately.
The right question is what makes you think Puzzle's push on Loran was scummy at all?
You appear to be approaching this with the agenda of tainting Puzzle. Faced with reasonable suspicion, you choose to lash out sarcastically at me. You've got an adversarial attitude going. I consider it most likely that these are the tells of someone who is scum.
Re: people saying that loran's character wasn't major. Thanks for telling me. I had been under the impression he was; before he got killed, the only two people to comment on the flavour of it (arim and Alpha) both seemed to approve of it. I'm glad I smelled a bit of a rat even without knowing that the flavour wasn't too good, my radar hasn't been the best lately.
That doesn't make sense, really. If you think about it, if it were anyone other than Puzzle who pushed the wagon, they'd be ridiculed and/or lynched. The fact that it IS Loran, and that it IS Puzzle, however, is what makes the question valid.
Also, I've found that adversarial attitudes are very rarely scum tells, except for in very inexperienced players, and I think we all agree Alpha Insidious isn't inexperienced. Rather, I've found (from, sadly, personal experience) that adversarial attitudes are a sign of a townie dealing with a stonewalling town who's bent on getting him lynched. It's a natural reaction, but I wouldn't say it's a scum tell to any extent.
QFT. Isawa wasn't involved at all in the Coup, for reference.
This only works as justification of a false claim if you can find 12 or so definitive people that were involved in the coup, as according to the flavor.
Quote from Puzzle »
Because I broke a stalled day, underlining the deadline, and called for a wagon against Loran16 as the only viable compromise ? There was nothing really going anywhere before this call. Oh, and I'm also the one who started the first Loran16 wagon.
That's not a 100% proof but calling me scummy for pushing and wagonning and then denying my push and wagon-building against Loran16 is a bit contradictory, isn't it ?
Vote : AlphaInsidious.
—> After I asked him to give a "scum-list", and he gave it, not once did he actually attack or, at the very least, imply that he was ready to attack, any of the players he suspects (RafaelK and Chamber). At most, he mounted a pseudo-defence of Puzzle against Chamber. Hurray.
Ahem...your voting history:
-Random
-Voted the mod
-Voted to a bandwagon
-1 Legitimate vote, which was promptly unvoted
-Voted Puzzle in response to my response to a suggestion
Flavor-wise, I found no concrete reason to debunk it. While I find the ability weak, if he were town, that may have been a default weak town ability, rather than a vig, sk, etc. Call me inexperienced, but when faced with the claim, I defaulted to finding why it could be right rather than looking to discredit it.
After re-reading the whole thread, I'd be much happier with a wagon on either Arimnaes, Pibbly or Xyre.
RafK follows.
emphasis mine...I found it interesting that Pibbly speculated as to the same ability for vig that Loran claimed. Stinks of cooperation to me. Vote: Pibbly (happy ZDS?)
-Alpha
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Quote from TheFooFish »
Lies! -I'm Buffy Summers, town tracker. I used my ability on you and saw that you didn't use any abilities before the game started. My flavor is I was sucked through a mysterious space-time portal and I'm here to kill all the vampires, and my tracking ability is a combination of my Slayer and Native American skills.
That doesn't make sense, really. If you think about it, if it were anyone other than Puzzle who pushed the wagon, they'd be ridiculed and/or lynched. The fact that it IS Loran, and that it IS Puzzle, however, is what makes the question valid.
No, that's BS. A person who strongly pushed a wagon on a scum would not normally be ridiculed/lynched/called scummy, Puzzle or not.
AI, loran, Xyre, and AI again. loran is scum. What price one of the other two? Again, behaviourally, I lean towards AI, especially since he makes a point of agreeing with Xyre but doesn't connect with loran (even though he takes up loran's argument without attribution later on).
My observations and personal analysis of Puzzle were of what happened prior to the revelation of Loran's scumminess. I didn't analyze anything that he said after Loran was dead. My arguments are post-death, but the subject of argument was pre-death.
-Alpha
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Quote from TheFooFish »
Lies! -I'm Buffy Summers, town tracker. I used my ability on you and saw that you didn't use any abilities before the game started. My flavor is I was sucked through a mysterious space-time portal and I'm here to kill all the vampires, and my tracking ability is a combination of my Slayer and Native American skills.
I've changed my mind. Unvote Arimnaes, vote Chamber.
Apart from "random" voting me and asking CC to threaten Pod, what has your input been so far ? Lurking in the light again, hey ?
point 1: my vote for you wasnt really random.
point2: I have made some stances, such as being anti pod. And I've questioned Ais motives openly. I realize thats not much, but I wasnt feeling the loran or cpe wagons, and they are the only real wagons we've had so far. It would have been in my interest to state I wasnt behind them I geuss, but me pushing someone else at the time implies it to some extent, no?
I think there's been more than enough topics so far and you've dodged most of them. You were not feeling for Loran and CPE's wagons, yet failed to say so.
Know what, you're right. I havn't left much of a paper trail so far this game. I geuss you better go ahead and lynch me.
Agreed. In fact, I was sure you'd say that, considering that you seemed actually fine with the threat on CPE for lack of content, after research.
Here's your only post at the time :
Is "next" supposed to mean you didn't want CPE to claim first ?
I didn’t find cpe and loran particularly scummy, but I didn’t find them to be models of the perfect townie either. If the town wants to move forward with a lead other then mine, who am I to stop them? It would only make games move at a needlessly slow pace.
Wow, Puzzle is off attacking another person, Who didn't see that coming?
Anyway, i think that Puzzle's case against chamber is rather weak, but then again, chamber's defence is rather weak as well. Right now, i think chamber might be town, and Puzzle is completely off my radar despite being in every other post. I just don't know what going on with him.
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Thanks to Legacy15 and Butteblues18 for the Sig and Avatar!
My case is weak, yes. Why ? Because Chamber has avoided any commitment to the game.
This is exactly the way he won Star Trek Mafia (as Mafia GF) : let the town lynch each other on their own, just stand and watch.
If you're ready to accept that a non-contributing person cannot be attacked, then you must be ready to lose the game to the scum who just twiddles his thumbs. I'm not.
When pressured, he says :
- he's been doing something in the form of attacking me for a non-random reason, omitting the fact that it has nothing to do with the game.
- he was anti-Pod but still can't explain it when asked. heck, he didn't even vote Pod but wanted to steal a quick claim from him.
- he's been questioning AI's motives : there's no trace of that.
- he wasn't feeling for CPE or Loran's wagons : there's no trace of that. There's even a trace of the contrary in CPE's case.
Those four points are his only contribution : one leaves nothing to work on, as it's in fact not an actual involvement to the game, one is something he can't explain and on which he doesn't even use his vote, and the two last are nowhere to be found.
As for me attacking people, it's more likely to help us find scum than waiting for the deadline (example : Loran16).
Nothing is wrong with what you said about 1 or 3. As far as 2 goes I could have swore I voted pod, oh wait, I still am. And for 4 by not voting in favor of the wagon doesn’t that show that I don’t support it? Why was voicing it necessary?
I've been thinking about Pibbly/Arim, and whilst I think Pibbly's actions are scummy, they don't tie him to Loran anywhere near as much as Arim's do. Vote Arimnaes.
To be honest, I think Loran was trying to tie himself to me, based on how fervently he was defending me from Puzzle for no apparent reason.
Quote from chamber »
And for 4 by not voting in favor of the wagon doesn’t that show that I don’t support it? Why was voicing it necessary?
I don't recall you giving any explicit comment one way or the other in regards to CPE (save the one Puzzle pointed out) and Loran. Considering how little you generally say, I don't think you can realistically expect us to know you're against something just because you don't give it vocal support.
I would go against chamber, ZDS, or Pibbly (in order of preference) if the deadline forced it, but I still think Xyre is scummier.
Considering how little you generally say, I don't think you can realistically expect us to know you're against something just because you don't give it vocal support.
Actually, I think I can. I'm normally pretty good at making it clear when I support something.
And I'm getting that one out of the way right off the bat because I'm a miller and would rather not have to explain that after someone investigates me.
1. Raf himself admits the likeliness of scum falseclaims on account of lorans willingness to go ahead with a mass claim, so we shouldn't be clearing Raf for his role name.
2. Why would Raf need to name claim in order to get it out of the way that he's a miller?
Chamber should likely be lynched(or daykilled :artist:) before the end of the game, but I want to address this before the day is out.
You're probably right, but I'm rather confident neither will happen.
Now, seriously, what kind of post is that when you have people on your back for scumminess? Admitting that you are deserving of a lynching or daykilled while simultaneously hinting at un-lynchability...that's really quite horrible...
But, because I don't want to unvote quite yet... Fos: Chamber
-Alpha
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Quote from TheFooFish »
Lies! -I'm Buffy Summers, town tracker. I used my ability on you and saw that you didn't use any abilities before the game started. My flavor is I was sucked through a mysterious space-time portal and I'm here to kill all the vampires, and my tracking ability is a combination of my Slayer and Native American skills.
Why else would he be 'rather confident' that he won't get killed when he has a wagon on him already, he posts with little content, answers with posts like that?
-Alpha
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Quote from TheFooFish »
Lies! -I'm Buffy Summers, town tracker. I used my ability on you and saw that you didn't use any abilities before the game started. My flavor is I was sucked through a mysterious space-time portal and I'm here to kill all the vampires, and my tracking ability is a combination of my Slayer and Native American skills.
You're probably right, but I'm rather confident neither will happen.
Dear Pod,
How much time does one have to respond to a daykill by claiming a power role, exactly?
TIA,
-Alpha
-Alpha
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Quote from TheFooFish »
Lies! -I'm Buffy Summers, town tracker. I used my ability on you and saw that you didn't use any abilities before the game started. My flavor is I was sucked through a mysterious space-time portal and I'm here to kill all the vampires, and my tracking ability is a combination of my Slayer and Native American skills.
That's fair...I was thinking in terms of just a straight daykill, without time for a claim, then again, that contradicts what happened before...
-Alpha
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Quote from TheFooFish »
Lies! -I'm Buffy Summers, town tracker. I used my ability on you and saw that you didn't use any abilities before the game started. My flavor is I was sucked through a mysterious space-time portal and I'm here to kill all the vampires, and my tracking ability is a combination of my Slayer and Native American skills.
1. Raf himself admits the likeliness of scum falseclaims on account of lorans willingness to go ahead with a mass claim, so we shouldn't be clearing Raf for his role name.
Admits? I am intent on making sure the possibility isn't ignored. That's a bit more than admits.
2. Why would Raf need to name claim in order to get it out of the way that he's a miller?
Raf: I'm a miller.
Everyone else: OMG flavour for that plz.
That actually happened even though I did give my role name. I think that giving out my rolename was a necessary part of establishing who and what I am straight out. No, I don't expect it to clear me. But I think way, way better to have it out there now than to be trying to explain it later in the game after the cop has wasted time getting the bad investigation on me.
I was also hoping to provide an early talking point to kick off the day, and giving my rolename was part of that (admittedly I had no idea of the evil possession stuff that LORAN immediately raised- notice that, CC?- or I may have been more circumspect about my name).
EBWODP: Can anyone (hint- it should be Alpha) give me a response to the points raised in my post 331?
And to continue the argument which frankly is only serving to make Alpha and Xyre look even worse to me:
Quote from AlphaInsidious »
My observations and personal analysis of Puzzle were of what happened prior to the revelation of Loran's scumminess. I didn't analyze anything that he said after Loran was dead. My arguments are post-death, but the subject of argument was pre-death.
Let's take a step back for a second.
AFTER Loran's death, you attempted to taint Puzzle for his actions in bandwagonning Loran BEFORE Loran's death.
With full knowledge that Loran was scum, you're arguing that it is suspicious that Puzzle was anti-Loran before Loran was killed.
If any of the above is incorrect, please do not hesitate to point it out.
EBWODP: Can anyone (hint- it should be Alpha) give me a response to the points raised in my post 331?
And to continue the argument which frankly is only serving to make Alpha and Xyre look even worse to me:
Let's take a step back for a second.
AFTER Loran's death, you attempted to taint Puzzle for his actions in bandwagonning Loran BEFORE Loran's death.
With full knowledge that Loran was scum, you're arguing that it is suspicious that Puzzle was anti-Loran before Loran was killed.
If any of the above is incorrect, please do not hesitate to point it out.
Now why are you dragging me into this? I'm not saying daykilling Loran wasn't useful - it tested a player who was hard to read and could be scum - but that doesn't retroactively justify his wagon. The wagon has to be evaluated solely based on the previous circumstances, and saying "I did the right thing because my actions were cleared after the fact" is completely irrational.
I'm not saying daykilling Loran wasn't useful - it tested a player who was hard to read and could be scum -
Could be?
but that doesn't retroactively justify his wagon. The wagon has to be evaluated solely based on the previous circumstances, and saying "I did the right thing because my actions were cleared after the fact" is completely irrational.
Ah, see this is where I understand what you're saying, but it's not the same thing as AI is saying.
You're saying that loran turning out scum doesn't mean Puzzle's arguments against loran were necessarily good or reasonable. That's true.
AI tried to push the line that Puzzle's bandwagon on loran was scummy, though, and that's the difference. Whether or not Puzzle's arguments were good, he worked hard to focus attention on a guy who turned out to be scum.
Ah, see this is where I understand what you're saying, but it's not the same thing as AI is saying.
You're saying that loran turning out scum doesn't mean Puzzle's arguments against loran were necessarily good or reasonable. That's true.
AI tried to push the line that Puzzle's bandwagon on loran was scummy, though, and that's the difference. Whether or not Puzzle's arguments were good, he worked hard to focus attention on a guy who turned out to be scum.
Well, bandwagons are a tricky thing. Sometimes, pushing a bandwagon is what the town needs to do to achieve lynches at all, but sometimes, choosing too many bandwagons makes one look overaggressive. I don't think the Loran wagon was bad, but Puzzle's behavior struck me as excessive. If anyone else had pushed it, I wouldn't have cared; the fact that it was Puzzle was what drew my attention.
Right now, I see why you think Chamber is scummy, but he does this EVERY game, so as of now, It is not worth a vote. I do think he is scummy thuogh, but I think that right now Rafk is the most scummy. so Unvote,Vote Rafk. Chambers play is strange, yet consistant, while Rafk seems to be pushing small details, that dont matter much (I have seen scum do this) and just the miller claim is unsettling, as it has always been.
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Quote from hotshizzle »
<hotshizle> WINE IN FRONT OF MEAL
<hotshizle> i think
Well, bandwagons are a tricky thing. Sometimes, pushing a bandwagon is what the town needs to do to achieve lynches at all, but sometimes, choosing too many bandwagons makes one look overaggressive. I don't think the Loran wagon was bad, but Puzzle's behavior struck me as excessive. If anyone else had pushed it, I wouldn't have cared; the fact that it was Puzzle was what drew my attention.
And that would be a fine reason to have been suspicious of Puzzle before the fact, but AI went after Puzzle vis a vis loran after the fact. It's suggestive that loran being proved scum caused AI to try and taint the record of the person who most heavily bandwagoned loran.
cpe: this isn't a little point, just as it wasn't a little point that loran's claimed vig ability was hard to believe because it would have taken many nights to kill just me.
And that would be a fine reason to have been suspicious of Puzzle before the fact, but AI went after Puzzle vis a vis loran after the fact. It's suggestive that loran being proved scum caused AI to try and taint the record of the person who most heavily bandwagoned loran.
Actually I took issue with Puzzle very often in the early, preLoranscum part of the day...as evidenced by the following posts.
@ Puzzle: Jeez...he was just analyzing...that's mafia. Not like he did anything particularly scummy...and if he had, that's a fos, or maybe a vote, but not a push for a baseless lynch!
Seriously, if it's role-related, let me know, but if not...that's kinda dumb
[FONT=georgia][FONT=georgia]
It's kind of strange to see Alpha defend Puzzle so much when he spent a quite considerable amount of time bickering with him.[/FONT][/FONT]
I'm not defending him per se, I'm just responding to Chamber and trying to give reasons why I tend to think Puzzle town after thinking about it, keeping in mind his past play. Although I am disturbed by Puzzle's play (evidenced by bickering), I was just more disturbed by Chamber's earlier posts...lesser of two evils kind of thing.
-Alpha
Despite coming to my own conjectures that Puzzle is likely town later in the day, I had problems with his playstyle. I did not attack Puzzle postLoranDeath until I was accused of bussing without others on the wagon getting consideration. I was curious as to how that worked exactly...not that I know, I am content to resort to my previous thoughts toward Puzzle...i.e, nega-scumminess.
-Alpha
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Quote from TheFooFish »
Lies! -I'm Buffy Summers, town tracker. I used my ability on you and saw that you didn't use any abilities before the game started. My flavor is I was sucked through a mysterious space-time portal and I'm here to kill all the vampires, and my tracking ability is a combination of my Slayer and Native American skills.
Right now, Chamber strikes me as a, well, Chamber, in that he's hard to determine because I always get the impression that he's being shady but not quite enough to push a lynch on him. That's why I'm thinking waiting on him so we can use a daykill (or, even better, a cop) to check him rather than lynching him.
I would vote you too, but me giving in and voting for Puzzle's choice of target has been disastrous too often in recent games. Besides, I feel that's too stupidly blatant a lead from someone in your situation. Also, I understand your reasoning re: chamber.
Vote stands on AI.
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Plan on giving any content CC?
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
"You, come here!" commands one of the images of Bayushi Shoju.
Startled, everyone turns to face CropCircles who has drawn his katana, aiming it at Loran16.
"What is this?" he asks.
The ten other personalities step back, forming a circle around CropCircles and Loran.
"You know very well what this is," he begins, "I challenge you to a duel."
Loran slowly draws his katana. The spirit of Emperor Hantei the 38th appears hovering above the combatants who are now measuring one another with deep stares as they pace slowly in a circle, blades held at the ready.
"It shall be done." Hantei says, clapping his hands.
It is Loran16 who lashes out first, blade striking blade, as CropCircles easily deflects the blow. He laughs, then mutters,
"You are not skilled with the blade, it seems."
He's right. Loran looks incredibly uncomfortable handling the unwieldy katana. Sensing weakness, CropCircles siezes the moment to lunge forward, and the strong attack sends the sword flying from Loran's grasp, knocking him to the floor. Caught off-guard by his overwhelming success, CropCircles stares blankly at the quivering creature before him. Blood trickles from Loran's lip.
"You should not have given me this moment, Samurai." , the prone figure hisses. From within his boot, Loran draws a dagger, sliding it into CropCircles' side. Smoke eminates from the wound, poison, no doubt.
CropCircles musters the strength for another blow, however, removing Loran's head from his body. As blood gushes to the Throne Room floor, the dead man's visage slowly transforms into someone else...
It is the pretty face of a woman, the prettiest seen in Rokugan. Loran was Bayushi Kachiko, mafia roleblocker.
CropCircles kneels down and leans heavily on his blade hilt. He is wounded, but he will survive.
The late Emperor smiles. "Well done, victor." He then fades away into the darkness.
Votes are reset. With 11 alive it is 6 to lynch. Deadline has been extended to Saturday, November 4th, at 11pm ET.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
What tipped you off to that being a fake claim? It seemed at least plausible to me...
Do tell.
Also, this appears to be confirmation (in part) that mafia are of the Scorpion Clan, or possibly just the Bayushi family.
-Alpha
Seems good.
emphasis mine...
This is not definite...could be a scum ploy, mutual attacking of each other. Not saying it's likely, but it's not a write-off. CC I'm pretty sure about.
-Alpha
I realize this, but I wasn't certain how many were even in the Bayushi family at the time of the coup.
-Alpha
Bussing is the act of attacking a fellow scum member to help clear yourself.
Also, lorans claim stunk, a lot. I think it was rather obvious he was lying, I commend cc for shooting, many on this site wouldn't have. Lorans wagon interests me greatly. I didn't find him all too scummy before the rather bad claim, and yet his wagon grew very very fast both times. Either we have a town very uncharacteristic of salvation, or the mafia were helping push there buddy.
Town/Mafia/Other - 14/6/3
Win/Lose/Tie - 11/12/0
Nk/lynched/Survived - 16/4/3
Thanks
You're telling me that there's no chance he was bussing? Why just because he started the bandwagon?
And yet Pibs and I are the only one's 'possibly' guilty of bussing.
What happened to Pibbly's 'plausibility'?
-Alpha
Anyone now like to doubt the possibility of false names being provided?
My feeling out of this is that Puzzle is probably town, and that AI in particular looks bad. loran urged the vig of CPE even more than I did, and cpe named loran as his scummiest guy, so I'm certainly happy to lay off cpe even if I'm not fond of his lurking.
I had Alpha initially, though, and I'm always happy to return to my early hunches. I really, really don't like his attempt in post 313 to keep suspicion on Puzzle- if he wants to consider that Puzzle is not completely cleared he's welcome, but to try and float the idea that Puzzle's push on loran is scummy is an unnecessary effort to muddy the waters.
And as I said pages ago, he's just trying too hard. Even in the last page, he jumps right in and accepts loran's claim and supports it with more lore reasons, then after loran dies he jumps in quickly to suck up to CC and to try and sneak in the idea that loran's death confirms in some way that the mafia are the Scorpion/Bayushi- of course, all it actually does is confirm that some mafia are Bayushi, which is obvious from the set-up. I don't see why someone would try and emphasise that loran's death says anything about the makeup of the mafia, unless you had a vested interest in people believing it...
What makes a Puzzle push on Loran any less scummy than anyone else's push on Loran? Can you give me an answer for that?
All that I said was that Loran's claim made sense from a 'lore' standpoint. I analyzed the claim, and couldn't find any blatant miscues, mistakes, etc with regards to the story/timeline. I didn't 'suck up' to CC any more than you did (which wasn't much), I just said in friendlier terms, that it was a good play, one that I wouldn't have been able to make. But you're right...I definitely should have said, 'Meh...it's just one dead scum, lucksack' That should have increased my 'towniness' for sure!
Also, I'm trying to see what info can be gleaned from Loran's death...it's constructive. It's what we have to work with now that we have a dead mafia.
-Alpha
1. AI
2. ZDS
3. Puzz, you have just been acting wierd all game, and I dont know what to make out of it.
And for the record, the answer to:
is that it's the wrong question.
The right question is what makes you think Puzzle's push on Loran was scummy at all?
You appear to be approaching this with the agenda of tainting Puzzle. Faced with reasonable suspicion, you choose to lash out sarcastically at me. You've got an adversarial attitude going. I consider it most likely that these are the tells of someone who is scum.
Re: people saying that loran's character wasn't major. Thanks for telling me. I had been under the impression he was; before he got killed, the only two people to comment on the flavour of it (arim and Alpha) both seemed to approve of it. I'm glad I smelled a bit of a rat even without knowing that the flavour wasn't too good, my radar hasn't been the best lately.
That doesn't make sense, really. If you think about it, if it were anyone other than Puzzle who pushed the wagon, they'd be ridiculed and/or lynched. The fact that it IS Loran, and that it IS Puzzle, however, is what makes the question valid.
Also, I've found that adversarial attitudes are very rarely scum tells, except for in very inexperienced players, and I think we all agree Alpha Insidious isn't inexperienced. Rather, I've found (from, sadly, personal experience) that adversarial attitudes are a sign of a townie dealing with a stonewalling town who's bent on getting him lynched. It's a natural reaction, but I wouldn't say it's a scum tell to any extent.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
This only works as justification of a false claim if you can find 12 or so definitive people that were involved in the coup, as according to the flavor.
That's fair I suppose.
Ahem...your voting history:
-Random
-Voted the mod
-Voted to a bandwagon
-1 Legitimate vote, which was promptly unvoted
-Voted Puzzle in response to my response to a suggestion
Way to call the kettle black.
Flavor-wise, I found no concrete reason to debunk it. While I find the ability weak, if he were town, that may have been a default weak town ability, rather than a vig, sk, etc. Call me inexperienced, but when faced with the claim, I defaulted to finding why it could be right rather than looking to discredit it.
emphasis mine...I found it interesting that Pibbly speculated as to the same ability for vig that Loran claimed. Stinks of cooperation to me.
Vote: Pibbly (happy ZDS?)
-Alpha
No, that's BS. A person who strongly pushed a wagon on a scum would not normally be ridiculed/lynched/called scummy, Puzzle or not.
Bolded for emphasis.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=1487006&postcount=27
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=1487103&postcount=31
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=1487122&postcount=33
AI, loran, Xyre, and AI again. loran is scum. What price one of the other two? Again, behaviourally, I lean towards AI, especially since he makes a point of agreeing with Xyre but doesn't connect with loran (even though he takes up loran's argument without attribution later on).
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=1489600&postcount=56
and that one pushed me to vote AI originally. Just trying too hard to get something going, once the initial push went nowhere.
Oh, and on the subject of whether or not the mafia have false claims (or at least are very comfortable in their planned claims) I point you to http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=1498798&postcount=120
We already know loran was scum, or had you missed that bit?
Lynch All Lorans aside, we didn't know that for sure before we shot him.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
AI's arguments trying to scummify Puzzle have been AFTER loran died.
-Alpha
point 1: my vote for you wasnt really random.
point2: I have made some stances, such as being anti pod. And I've questioned Ais motives openly. I realize thats not much, but I wasnt feeling the loran or cpe wagons, and they are the only real wagons we've had so far. It would have been in my interest to state I wasnt behind them I geuss, but me pushing someone else at the time implies it to some extent, no?
Town/Mafia/Other - 14/6/3
Win/Lose/Tie - 11/12/0
Nk/lynched/Survived - 16/4/3
Know what, you're right. I havn't left much of a paper trail so far this game. I geuss you better go ahead and lynch me.
Town/Mafia/Other - 14/6/3
Win/Lose/Tie - 11/12/0
Nk/lynched/Survived - 16/4/3
I didn’t find cpe and loran particularly scummy, but I didn’t find them to be models of the perfect townie either. If the town wants to move forward with a lead other then mine, who am I to stop them? It would only make games move at a needlessly slow pace.
Town/Mafia/Other - 14/6/3
Win/Lose/Tie - 11/12/0
Nk/lynched/Survived - 16/4/3
Anyway, i think that Puzzle's case against chamber is rather weak, but then again, chamber's defence is rather weak as well. Right now, i think chamber might be town, and Puzzle is completely off my radar despite being in every other post. I just don't know what going on with him.
Nothing is wrong with what you said about 1 or 3. As far as 2 goes I could have swore I voted pod, oh wait, I still am. And for 4 by not voting in favor of the wagon doesn’t that show that I don’t support it? Why was voicing it necessary?
Town/Mafia/Other - 14/6/3
Win/Lose/Tie - 11/12/0
Nk/lynched/Survived - 16/4/3
To be honest, I think Loran was trying to tie himself to me, based on how fervently he was defending me from Puzzle for no apparent reason.
I don't recall you giving any explicit comment one way or the other in regards to CPE (save the one Puzzle pointed out) and Loran. Considering how little you generally say, I don't think you can realistically expect us to know you're against something just because you don't give it vocal support.
I would go against chamber, ZDS, or Pibbly (in order of preference) if the deadline forced it, but I still think Xyre is scummier.
Actually, I think I can. I'm normally pretty good at making it clear when I support something.
Town/Mafia/Other - 14/6/3
Win/Lose/Tie - 11/12/0
Nk/lynched/Survived - 16/4/3
1. Raf himself admits the likeliness of scum falseclaims on account of lorans willingness to go ahead with a mass claim, so we shouldn't be clearing Raf for his role name.
2. Why would Raf need to name claim in order to get it out of the way that he's a miller?
Chamber should likely be lynched(or daykilled :artist:) before the end of the game, but I want to address this before the day is out.
Unvote, Vote Raf
[The Family]
I don't think Chamber's scum (based on my experiences with him), but he seems to be posting poorly and not caring.
@ CC: I think a daykill would be more efficient so we can pursue more important people.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
You're probably right, but I'm rather confident neither will happen.
Town/Mafia/Other - 14/6/3
Win/Lose/Tie - 11/12/0
Nk/lynched/Survived - 16/4/3
Now, seriously, what kind of post is that when you have people on your back for scumminess? Admitting that you are deserving of a lynching or daykilled while simultaneously hinting at un-lynchability...that's really quite horrible...
But, because I don't want to unvote quite yet... Fos: Chamber
-Alpha
I'm being dense? Don't be dense
Why else would he be 'rather confident' that he won't get killed when he has a wagon on him already, he posts with little content, answers with posts like that?
-Alpha
Dear Pod,
How much time does one have to respond to a daykill by claiming a power role, exactly?
TIA,
-Alpha
-Alpha
-Alpha
Admits? I am intent on making sure the possibility isn't ignored. That's a bit more than admits.
Raf: I'm a miller.
Everyone else: OMG flavour for that plz.
That actually happened even though I did give my role name. I think that giving out my rolename was a necessary part of establishing who and what I am straight out. No, I don't expect it to clear me. But I think way, way better to have it out there now than to be trying to explain it later in the game after the cop has wasted time getting the bad investigation on me.
I was also hoping to provide an early talking point to kick off the day, and giving my rolename was part of that (admittedly I had no idea of the evil possession stuff that LORAN immediately raised- notice that, CC?- or I may have been more circumspect about my name).
And to continue the argument which frankly is only serving to make Alpha and Xyre look even worse to me:
Let's take a step back for a second.
AFTER Loran's death, you attempted to taint Puzzle for his actions in bandwagonning Loran BEFORE Loran's death.
With full knowledge that Loran was scum, you're arguing that it is suspicious that Puzzle was anti-Loran before Loran was killed.
If any of the above is incorrect, please do not hesitate to point it out.
Now why are you dragging me into this? I'm not saying daykilling Loran wasn't useful - it tested a player who was hard to read and could be scum - but that doesn't retroactively justify his wagon. The wagon has to be evaluated solely based on the previous circumstances, and saying "I did the right thing because my actions were cleared after the fact" is completely irrational.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
You waded in on your own.
Could be?
Ah, see this is where I understand what you're saying, but it's not the same thing as AI is saying.
You're saying that loran turning out scum doesn't mean Puzzle's arguments against loran were necessarily good or reasonable. That's true.
AI tried to push the line that Puzzle's bandwagon on loran was scummy, though, and that's the difference. Whether or not Puzzle's arguments were good, he worked hard to focus attention on a guy who turned out to be scum.
That's new to me.
Fine. Could have been. Used the wrong tense.
Well, bandwagons are a tricky thing. Sometimes, pushing a bandwagon is what the town needs to do to achieve lynches at all, but sometimes, choosing too many bandwagons makes one look overaggressive. I don't think the Loran wagon was bad, but Puzzle's behavior struck me as excessive. If anyone else had pushed it, I wouldn't have cared; the fact that it was Puzzle was what drew my attention.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
And that would be a fine reason to have been suspicious of Puzzle before the fact, but AI went after Puzzle vis a vis loran after the fact. It's suggestive that loran being proved scum caused AI to try and taint the record of the person who most heavily bandwagoned loran.
cpe: this isn't a little point, just as it wasn't a little point that loran's claimed vig ability was hard to believe because it would have taken many nights to kill just me.
Actually I took issue with Puzzle very often in the early, preLoranscum part of the day...as evidenced by the following posts.
Despite coming to my own conjectures that Puzzle is likely town later in the day, I had problems with his playstyle. I did not attack Puzzle postLoranDeath until I was accused of bussing without others on the wagon getting consideration. I was curious as to how that worked exactly...not that I know, I am content to resort to my previous thoughts toward Puzzle...i.e, nega-scumminess.
-Alpha
Vote Count
RafaelK (2) - CropCircles, Creampuffeater
AlphaInsidious (1) - RafaelK
Arimnaes (1) - Pod
Chamber (1) - ZeDorkSlipeur
Pibbly (1) - AlphaInsidious
Xyre (1) - Puzzle
With 11 alive, it is 6 to lynch.
Deadline is Saturday, November 4th, at 11pm ET.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Town/Mafia/Other - 14/6/3
Win/Lose/Tie - 11/12/0
Nk/lynched/Survived - 16/4/3
Fair enough. I'll make my point clearer.
Right now, Chamber strikes me as a, well, Chamber, in that he's hard to determine because I always get the impression that he's being shady but not quite enough to push a lynch on him. That's why I'm thinking waiting on him so we can use a daykill (or, even better, a cop) to check him rather than lynching him.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
XIINOL
I would vote you too, but me giving in and voting for Puzzle's choice of target has been disastrous too often in recent games. Besides, I feel that's too stupidly blatant a lead from someone in your situation. Also, I understand your reasoning re: chamber.
Vote stands on AI.