I do find the extremely fast bandwagon on mosschop - both the voters and the merely "concerned" - quite disturbing. Almost makes me think he's not scum...
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there are only 2 votes on mosschop right now
mine was the first pressure vote, and the second was WoD
and mine will be removed as soon as mosschop posts something reasonable
I would hope that if *anyone* posts something blatantly scummy, you would consider voting that person. So what are you really trying to say - people with poor logic are more likely to be scum? I suppose that's a legitimate argument, but I'm not yet sure whether poor logic is just the standard for CF.
No, poor logic afflicts both sides. It just depends on how good a player you are, not your allignment. But while it's a detriment for the town, craplogic can benefit the mafia. Thus, scum are less averse to using bad logic and often use it consciously, while a townie is more likely to use it unconciously. None of these are absolutes, however.
And you don't need an FOS to point out bad logic. Typically, an FOS is used for pointing out *suspicious* people, ones that you may think are scum, rather than for pointing out people who have used faulty logic. So I take it you don't consider WoD to be scummy?
No, I don't think he's scum. Thank you for the advice on FOS's - I'll keep it in mind.
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By kingcobweb and Goblinboy.
Official Elitist of [thread=40859][RBS][/thread]
Quote from kingcobweb »
I don't understand the purpose of gimmick accounts.
there are only 2 votes on mosschop right now
mine was the first pressure vote, and the second was WoD
and mine will be removed as soon as mosschop posts something reasonable
There are also a number of "concurring opinions," shall we say, that a suspicious person might interpret as scum not wanting to be seen as bandwagoning, but nevertheless trying to push the bandwagon along. This is what I meant by "both the voters and the merely 'concerned.' " Mostly it was the speed of the thing that surprised me.
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Right now, it seems Coiled is posting without any regard to what anyone else is saying.
This is actually a tactic I'm not sure how to deal with...the very concept of it is so stupid that I am at a loss for words
A person who arbitrarily posts and votes without looking at anyone elses comments regarding their own last post posts is a very rare occurrence indeed.
@Cubus: How would Coiled Flame claiming accomplish anything whatsoever? I don't really see what is 'confusing' to begin with, and I really don't see how him claiming would make anything 'less confusing'. It makes me extremely uneasy that you'd randomly suggest that someone claim.
Well.. I he would claim a reliable town role, I'd less suspect him. You know what happened last time a claim was asked from him. I think it could work. The problem is that a townie power role might be outed, which would be a bad thing, obviously. Therefore, I don't want him to claim. Notice that I never actually stated that. I just said it would make CF's case less confusing, and asked about your opinions.
i assume you mean "if he would claim a reliable town role" but it should be pretty obvious that he would claim a reliable town role...that is what most claims are...if he was scum, he would still claim a "reliable town role". you say that you dont want him to claim, but a few posts ago, you sounded like you did want him to claim. you said " Coiled Flame claiming would make this game a lot less confusing, although I'm not sure if that would be a wise thing to do.." to me, this sounds like you fishing for a claim, but you dont want to be seen as the first one looking for a claim. You also seem to be hedging your bets, incase other people attack you for looking for a claim. your posts sound like "claiming would be good, but maybe it would be bad..." it may make this less confusing, but maybe not... big fos:cubus
for the moment, my vote remains on mosschop, at least until he posts, or gets prodded. i agree that more votes wont really make him post faster but my vote is still there as pressure. two votes really isnt a bandwagon, especially when it takes 10 to lynch... however, i still stand by my previous statement that when he posts, or is prodded, the vote will be removed
I'd say that CF is, in fact, our best lead. The argument that he's just dumb doesn't do it for me. Pressuring the scummiest player just sounds like it will work.
On the other hand, that sounds like I'll be eating my own words momentarially should I follow through with that line of thought. Still, I stand by it. I haven't seen a more convicing lead yet. Heck, let's take it to a vote Coiled Flame.
I think that right now, I would like to hear a claim, but lets see if the magority of us want to, and I will wait untill then. Personally, I think he is 50-50, 50% so noob that is just incredibly scummy, and 50% that he is just a VERY bad scum. Personally I am leaning towards noob, but I do not think we should over look CF just yet, and I think after all that he has said/done a claim would be nice.
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Quote from hotshizzle »
<hotshizle> WINE IN FRONT OF MEAL
<hotshizle> i think
I might be in the minority, but, I can't agree with CF claiming. Honestly, his play just seems more newb than scum to me so far, and if he claims, it's probably going to be in a newb fashion as well, which will only make it easier to mislynch him(and let's face it, if his claim is bad/poorly presented, it will only take minimal effort for someone to get a lynch against him). The only way a claim would accomplish anything whatsoever is if he has a role..is it worth outing a town role right now? I mean, our names are all based off of White Stripes songs, you guys can't actually believe that just name-claiming is going to do anything. He would have to full-claim, and I definetely don't see a call for that. And if he claims Vanilla, he'd be putting the noose around his own neck. We should, at the very least, wait and look for other leads..we can always come back to Coiled later today if nothing better presents itself. But it's still very, very early in Day 1, pushing someone for a claim already just seems like too much.
I think that right now, I would like to hear a claim, but lets see if the magority of us want to, and I will wait untill then. Personally, I think he is 50-50, 50% so noob that is just incredibly scummy, and 50% that he is just a VERY bad scum. Personally I am leaning towards noob, but I do not think we should over look CF just yet, and I think after all that he has said/done a claim would be nice.
If you're leaning towards noob, then how is he 50-50? Do you just not know what 50-50 means, or is this an overly elaborate attempt to balance gracefully on the fence?
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I would agree that he is acting 100% newbish, but that doesn't mean that it isn't scummy also. Sometimes people are scum early on, too. He keeps saying that he has explained himself, but if that explanation isn't good enough (as I don't think it is), then what do you do? Do you just ignore him because he is acting newbish; or do you pressure further, even though you are sure he won't give any better of an answer afterwards? I don't really want a claim from him, yet, but I for one don't think that he is acting like a member of the town currently. I would push for a claim if more people agreed that he is more than just newbish, but I don't think I need to. Right now I am content with letting him act the way he has been until others agree that he needs to claim. Unless he changes his ways, I am sure that won't take too long.
For now, though, I will unvote, Vote Coiled Flame.
After thinking about this for while, I've come to the conclusion that a simple name-claim may be productive for the town. If we're still operating by the assumption "CF's not smart enough to be scum" a fake claim should be easier to detect than in a normal situation. On the other hand if CF could give us his real role name. While a claim of some random White Stripes song might not tell us much, a claim of, say, "Jimmy the Exploder" (Song about monkey blowing up non-red things. Info from wiki btw) will definitely be a big tip that something's up (Of course, a scummy sounding role claim may turn out to be town, but it would work on flavor and flavor, while secondary, plays an important role). So I guess I'd be in favor of a name-claim.
On the other hand, it's one in the morning and I might not be thinking straight. So let's continue the discussion before taking action.
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By kingcobweb and Goblinboy.
Official Elitist of [thread=40859][RBS][/thread]
Quote from kingcobweb »
I don't understand the purpose of gimmick accounts.
I'm still opposed, plus you just gave him a big head's up on what NOT to claim if that's his real rolename, so that doesn't make me happy.
However, the town seems really stuck on Coiled Flame. I really think we should just move on. Maybe everyone should clearly say whether they're for/against Coiled claiming.
My favorite suspect is still Salubrious, and his last contribution isn't so great. I'm not sure how he arrived at "CF's not smart enough to be scum," or how he came up with the assumption that song names will indicate scum (whereas bertrand's certainly didn't), or why he felt like saying that "Jimmy the Exploder" is a scummy sounding role.
Against. Gotta agree with fadeblue de Salubrious; if this were, say, Superheroes Mafia, a name claim might give us a good chance of determining guilt or innocence, but in White Stripes Mafia...?
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Crippled: I'm going after Coiled partly just because I think he needs to learn a lesson. I don't think it's a good idea to let him get away with the play he has without at least some pressure on him. That said, he's also drowned out any other leads I may have seen. I can't think of anywhere else to go at this point, so I've just latched on to him for the time being.
I think the majority of people are not wanting CF to claim. I can't say I'm really that sad about that.
Basically I meant this: I don't want CF to get off with no pressure on him for acting scummy as hell, though I'm deffinately willing to see the position that he's just a newb being reaaaaaaally scummy. I want to teach him a lesson, so to speak, but I'm not completely convinced he's scum. Plus, because he's been so scummy, I haven't been able to notice / paid attention to anyone else, so going after him has been my best course of action. I am completely open to other suspects, however.
I'm also against Flame claiming.
A name claim wouldn't be able to solve much here and I'm against a full claim this early into day 1 on a player that has exhibited so many signs of being new.
Voting, what was it, 6 different people in the first 160 posts or so of the game was one. Giving what I thought of as very bad logic for nearly all of them was another. I'm not quite sure what else. Mainly some combination of crap logic and trigger happy voting on his part and my gut.
Again, I do find him scummy. I think it will not be long before we have a better lead, but that he is currently our best. If nothing else than put pressure on him so that he doesn't get out of line in future games, I think it's worth persuing him for some amount of time. Actually, about as long as we have. I'm still waiting for a better case to come about (I don't really know what the case against Salubrious is, or I'd comment on that), and in the mean time I think Coiled Flame has been very scummy and should be suspected for it - newb or otherwise.
Fair enough. I just didn't want him to get away with such poor play. If your play is so bad that people say you couldn't possibly be scum just because your play is so bad... well, I thought something needed to be done.
In forum mafia, 160 posts is not alot, especially not the first 160 posts in a game. Plus, you changed your vote around ALOT in that time, and rarely gave any reasoning behind it. The reasoning that you did give didn't really make any sense, either. It's easy to understand why people found your actions scummy. The reason that I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, honestly, is that it seemed like ALL of your actions were scummy, and I felt like this was more indicative of just not knowing how the game works than you actually being scum. I also had the thought that you could not know how the game works AND be scum, but, if that were the case, it seemed like you would have calmed down at some point(especially since, as it says in the rules, mafioso can apparently talk during the day in this game, and I have to believe that one of the other mafioso would have told you to quiet down by now if you were actually mafia).
My favorite suspect is still Salubrious, and his last contribution isn't so great. I'm not sure how he arrived at "CF's not smart enough to be scum,"
This is not my conviction. I'm refering here to the conclusion the town seems to have reached: that CF makes such awful and "outlandish" newb mistakes that it is unlikely that he is scum. Fine. If the town considers CF to be an inexperienced and foolish player, than an attempted false-claim on his part would be more easy to spot than normally. Of course if CF is town (certainly possible) we'd be right back where we started, but at least the town would know more about CF.
or how he came up with the assumption that song names will indicate scum (whereas bertrand's certainly didn't)
Most games have a certain amount of roles based on flavor. 2 out of 21 role-names isn't very representative.
or why he felt like saying that "Jimmy the Exploder" is a scummy sounding role.
Sorry, a bit confused here. Are you saying that it's unreasonable to assume "Jimmy the Explorer" is scummy-sounding, or that I gave valuable info to the Mafia by bringing to light a name they shouldn't claim?
As it seems most of the town is against CF claiming, I'm willing to drop the issue.
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By kingcobweb and Goblinboy.
Official Elitist of [thread=40859][RBS][/thread]
Quote from kingcobweb »
I don't understand the purpose of gimmick accounts.
This is not my conviction. I'm refering here to the conclusion the town seems to have reached: that CF makes such awful and "outlandish" newb mistakes that it is unlikely that he is scum. Fine. If the town considers CF to be an inexperienced and foolish player, than an attempted false-claim on his part would be more easy to spot than normally. Of course if CF is town (certainly possible) we'd be right back where we started, but at least the town would know more about CF.
Most games have a certain amount of roles based on flavor. 2 out of 21 role-names isn't very representative.
or why he felt like saying that "Jimmy the Exploder" is a scummy sounding role.
Sorry, a bit confused here. Are you saying that it's unreasonable to assume "Jimmy the Explorer" is scummy-sounding, or that I gave valuable info to the Mafia by bringing to light a name they shouldn't claim?
Er, do you mean Exploder or Explorer?
As it seems most of the town is against CF claiming, I'm willing to drop the issue.
I like pie.
If coiled has a power role, then god help the town.
I am against him roleclaiming, simply because I don't want to find out that he's doc, cop, or whatever
It's pretty much a dead issue now anyway, but Wuffles has a good point. The chance of the mafia killing Coiled Flame is virtually zero. If he is a power role, his play so far(and the willingness of experienced players to see him as more newb than scum) ensures that any such role will stay hidden. So let's just leave that possibility as just that..a possibilty, and drop this issue and move on.
I feel like Salubrious' answers in his last post where fairly unsatisfactory. For one thing, there's no statistical data that indicates that most games have a certain amount of roles based upon flavor...I feel like that's just making up stats to backup an erronous statement. Also, the crux of Salubrious' argument seems to be that we should force CF to claim because, if he false-claimed, he'd probably mess up. The problem I have with this is that there is no indication that you would need to false claim in this game. Again, it seems like Salubrious really just wants to find out as much role info on Coiled as he can. Vote Salubrious
Salubrious, I'm not sure you're understanding what the town is saying (or at least, what I and others are saying). One, there is no connection between being "smart enough" and being scum. Two, Coiled's noobishness doesn't make him "not scum"; it simply doesn't indicate either way whether he's scum or town.
As for the comment about "Jimmy the Exploder," I found it unnecessary to bring up the way that people may construe rolenames, nor do I think we should be attempting to assign labels to songs at this point.
I agree that some people aren't posting enough. Mod-prodding them seems acceptable. But it's too early for lurker hunting, especially when we have other leads.
So are people planning to just sit around and wait until a concrete case falls into our laps? It's Day 1, people - we can't just expect to have a clear suspect this early in the game.
Modprods are good, but some of you really need to make an effort by actually rereading posts and analyzing them, rather than waiting for other people to make cases for you or relying on power roles to win the game.
In the meantime, I'm content with pushing for the person I find most suspicious based on the posts so far. You don't have to agree with me, but at least try to form your own conclusions instead of being lazy.
How's this: we do the ol' "name your top three suspects" survey? It makes people talk, and makes them commit some opinions.
So, the three people I feel most funny about, in no particular order: magicianofthought, creampuffeater, and mosschop. The first two are kind of lurky and also posted something that struck me the wrong way, while the third's just really lurky.
Personally, I there is merit to fadeblue's attack on Salubrious. I worry that it may be the sort of thing a sufficiently clever mafioso (and fadeblue is nothing if not clever) or even overly attentive townie might be able to conjure out of innocuous posts. Nevertheless, I'm leaning towards agreeing with fadeblue, but not so much that Salubrious overshadows my funny feelings about the three named above.
And mote that I call them "funny feelings," not "suspicions;" at the moment I merely think that they have some 'splaining to do.
More...
First, Wuffles is acting kind of random, but then again, so am I. And I don't think my far greater adeptness at it, the immeasurably superior wit and charm of my jests, can be attributed to my greater relative townieness.
"Enough is enough, Blinky," you say? Fine.
Second, I don't feel funny or suspicious about Coiled Flame so much as exasperated about. And one thing I don't want to have happen is the town paying so much attention to one newbie that they miss subtler clues*.
*Tells and hidden messages, like the one I put in this post! Mwahahaha! Wait, did I say that out loud?
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MoT and CPE always rub me the wrong way. Both just have annoying styles for me. The many lurkers are probly all lumped together on my scum list somewhere up there. Coiled Flame is, of course, a name to be mentioned. Anyone Fade is suspicious of deserves another look. I suppose that's about my list.
Time to read over Salubrious.
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mine was the first pressure vote, and the second was WoD
and mine will be removed as soon as mosschop posts something reasonable
also, MOD: could we get a prod please
No, poor logic afflicts both sides. It just depends on how good a player you are, not your allignment. But while it's a detriment for the town, craplogic can benefit the mafia. Thus, scum are less averse to using bad logic and often use it consciously, while a townie is more likely to use it unconciously. None of these are absolutes, however.
No, I don't think he's scum. Thank you for the advice on FOS's - I'll keep it in mind.
By kingcobweb and Goblinboy.
Official Elitist of [thread=40859][RBS][/thread]
There are also a number of "concurring opinions," shall we say, that a suspicious person might interpret as scum not wanting to be seen as bandwagoning, but nevertheless trying to push the bandwagon along. This is what I meant by "both the voters and the merely 'concerned.' " Mostly it was the speed of the thing that surprised me.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
This is actually a tactic I'm not sure how to deal with...the very concept of it is so stupid that I am at a loss for words
A person who arbitrarily posts and votes without looking at anyone elses comments regarding their own last post posts is a very rare occurrence indeed.
i assume you mean "if he would claim a reliable town role" but it should be pretty obvious that he would claim a reliable town role...that is what most claims are...if he was scum, he would still claim a "reliable town role". you say that you dont want him to claim, but a few posts ago, you sounded like you did want him to claim. you said " Coiled Flame claiming would make this game a lot less confusing, although I'm not sure if that would be a wise thing to do.." to me, this sounds like you fishing for a claim, but you dont want to be seen as the first one looking for a claim. You also seem to be hedging your bets, incase other people attack you for looking for a claim. your posts sound like "claiming would be good, but maybe it would be bad..." it may make this less confusing, but maybe not... big fos:cubus
for the moment, my vote remains on mosschop, at least until he posts, or gets prodded. i agree that more votes wont really make him post faster but my vote is still there as pressure. two votes really isnt a bandwagon, especially when it takes 10 to lynch... however, i still stand by my previous statement that when he posts, or is prodded, the vote will be removed
I think.
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no, we just want you to explain your actions
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Some people want you to claim. We haven't reached a concensus yet, so please don't claim until we all agree on it.
By kingcobweb and Goblinboy.
Official Elitist of [thread=40859][RBS][/thread]
This is the most complicated game of mafia i've ever been in...
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I'd say that CF is, in fact, our best lead. The argument that he's just dumb doesn't do it for me. Pressuring the scummiest player just sounds like it will work.
On the other hand, that sounds like I'll be eating my own words momentarially should I follow through with that line of thought. Still, I stand by it. I haven't seen a more convicing lead yet. Heck, let's take it to a vote Coiled Flame.
If you're leaning towards noob, then how is he 50-50? Do you just not know what 50-50 means, or is this an overly elaborate attempt to balance gracefully on the fence?
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
For now, though, I will
unvote, Vote Coiled Flame.
Also, could we get a vote count?
Type II:
BGUWet Rock
GWTapping Token Beats
Extended:
GWREternal Slide
GRUBeasts (homebrew)
RGoblins!
Legacy:
GUBWROath of Barbarians (homebrew)
On the other hand, it's one in the morning and I might not be thinking straight. So let's continue the discussion before taking action.
By kingcobweb and Goblinboy.
Official Elitist of [thread=40859][RBS][/thread]
However, the town seems really stuck on Coiled Flame. I really think we should just move on. Maybe everyone should clearly say whether they're for/against Coiled claiming.
I'll go first. I'm against, obviously.
My favorite suspect is still Salubrious, and his last contribution isn't so great. I'm not sure how he arrived at "CF's not smart enough to be scum," or how he came up with the assumption that song names will indicate scum (whereas bertrand's certainly didn't), or why he felt like saying that "Jimmy the Exploder" is a scummy sounding role.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
I think the majority of people are not wanting CF to claim. I can't say I'm really that sad about that.
A name claim wouldn't be able to solve much here and I'm against a full claim this early into day 1 on a player that has exhibited so many signs of being new.
Again, I do find him scummy. I think it will not be long before we have a better lead, but that he is currently our best. If nothing else than put pressure on him so that he doesn't get out of line in future games, I think it's worth persuing him for some amount of time. Actually, about as long as we have. I'm still waiting for a better case to come about (I don't really know what the case against Salubrious is, or I'd comment on that), and in the mean time I think Coiled Flame has been very scummy and should be suspected for it - newb or otherwise.
To me, 160 posts is a ton. Most face-to-face games I've played in took about 5 minutes to lynch someone...
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i also would comment on the salubrious case if i knew what it was
when i get a chance, i'm probably gonna analyze his posts so far...
This is not my conviction. I'm refering here to the conclusion the town seems to have reached: that CF makes such awful and "outlandish" newb mistakes that it is unlikely that he is scum. Fine. If the town considers CF to be an inexperienced and foolish player, than an attempted false-claim on his part would be more easy to spot than normally. Of course if CF is town (certainly possible) we'd be right back where we started, but at least the town would know more about CF.
Most games have a certain amount of roles based on flavor. 2 out of 21 role-names isn't very representative.
Sorry, a bit confused here. Are you saying that it's unreasonable to assume "Jimmy the Explorer" is scummy-sounding, or that I gave valuable info to the Mafia by bringing to light a name they shouldn't claim?
As it seems most of the town is against CF claiming, I'm willing to drop the issue.
By kingcobweb and Goblinboy.
Official Elitist of [thread=40859][RBS][/thread]
I like pie.
If coiled has a power role, then god help the town.
I am against him roleclaiming, simply because I don't want to find out that he's doc, cop, or whatever
Name claim has potential, though, but not yet.
I feel like Salubrious' answers in his last post where fairly unsatisfactory. For one thing, there's no statistical data that indicates that most games have a certain amount of roles based upon flavor...I feel like that's just making up stats to backup an erronous statement. Also, the crux of Salubrious' argument seems to be that we should force CF to claim because, if he false-claimed, he'd probably mess up. The problem I have with this is that there is no indication that you would need to false claim in this game. Again, it seems like Salubrious really just wants to find out as much role info on Coiled as he can. Vote Salubrious
Spam pie?
Salubrious, I'm not sure you're understanding what the town is saying (or at least, what I and others are saying). One, there is no connection between being "smart enough" and being scum. Two, Coiled's noobishness doesn't make him "not scum"; it simply doesn't indicate either way whether he's scum or town.
As for the comment about "Jimmy the Exploder," I found it unnecessary to bring up the way that people may construe rolenames, nor do I think we should be attempting to assign labels to songs at this point.
Unvote, Vote Diggy
rawr!
diggy has at least posted more than once
mosschop where are you???
In liu of the fact that Loran's not here, I guess we just have to look for less obvious targets to stimulate conversation.
...
Ahem.
Well, right now, we have:
1. Coiled - Meh, he'll get lynched at some point.
2. Salubrious - Yeah, the fishing thing is kinda suspicious, dude.
But I don't think we have enough reason to lynch, at least.
So, yeah, Modprods for Nymphe, Diggy, Perhaps spirit, and DEFINITELY 'chops are in order.
But Diggy must alleviate my suspicions before my vote will be removed.
Modprods are good, but some of you really need to make an effort by actually rereading posts and analyzing them, rather than waiting for other people to make cases for you or relying on power roles to win the game.
In the meantime, I'm content with pushing for the person I find most suspicious based on the posts so far. You don't have to agree with me, but at least try to form your own conclusions instead of being lazy.
How's this: we do the ol' "name your top three suspects" survey? It makes people talk, and makes them commit some opinions.
Personally, I there is merit to fadeblue's attack on Salubrious. I worry that it may be the sort of thing a sufficiently clever mafioso (and fadeblue is nothing if not clever) or even overly attentive townie might be able to conjure out of innocuous posts. Nevertheless, I'm leaning towards agreeing with fadeblue, but not so much that Salubrious overshadows my funny feelings about the three named above.
And mote that I call them "funny feelings," not "suspicions;" at the moment I merely think that they have some 'splaining to do.
More...
First, Wuffles is acting kind of random, but then again, so am I. And I don't think my far greater adeptness at it, the immeasurably superior wit and charm of my jests, can be attributed to my greater relative townieness.
"Enough is enough, Blinky," you say? Fine.
Second, I don't feel funny or suspicious about Coiled Flame so much as exasperated about. And one thing I don't want to have happen is the town paying so much attention to one newbie that they miss subtler clues*.
*Tells and hidden messages, like the one I put in this post! Mwahahaha! Wait, did I say that out loud?
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Unvote, Vote Diggy for mispelling my name. Its Coiled Flame, not Colied Flame.
Sig and Avvy by Mr. Stuff
Looking for people to test T2 with me on MWS, Pacific or Mountain time preffered
MoT and CPE always rub me the wrong way. Both just have annoying styles for me. The many lurkers are probly all lumped together on my scum list somewhere up there. Coiled Flame is, of course, a name to be mentioned. Anyone Fade is suspicious of deserves another look. I suppose that's about my list.
Time to read over Salubrious.