Personally I feel that simply agreeing with someone is fine so long as you accept that you're also agreeing with the details behind their reasoning.
Machin Shin tells it like it is: better to post to the thread giving an opinion even if you have no new ideas.
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It was the part he said "to put preassure on" at three votes that got me.
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the fact that he took a general FOS as a comment for himself (#150)
Passdog fosed a group of people voting Cyan at the time, but didn’t name names. I think it’s reasonable to want to know whether I was being fosed or not.
Quote from Puzzle »
+ the introductory noobie-scuzzy post #6 "And my first game with "the pros", so to speak."
No comment on this one. I posted what I posted, and you can interpret it how you will. Unless I start asking for special treatment for being a noob, which I haven’t, I don’t think it’s particularly “scuzzy.”
Quote from Puzzle »
+ the fact that he didn't vote Cyan in #94 (FOS), #98 or #100 but did in #108 (after Chimpanzee's vote in #106)
At the time I was hoping Cyan would see sense. But he continued whining and defending the logic (or lack thereof) supporting his vote on Az, so I ended up voting him. At first I thought he was making an honest mistake, but when he persisted in the face of reason, I began to think he had ulterior motives, hence scum.
Quote from Puzzle »
+ the justification of this fifth vote, when the wagon is growing, by "until something better comes along”
That is not my entire justification. See above.
Quote from Puzzle »
+ now #187, where he underlines he didn't use the noobie-scuzzy defense in #150 (hence using it in this post)
Wait, so, pointing out that I didn’t use the newb defense is using the newb defense?
Quote from Puzzle »
+ the colour of his lightsaber, obviously stolen from Yoda
Just because I’m a dark lord of the sith doesn’t make me scum. Geeeeeez.
(Unless I'm Darth Vader, the SK. ;))
So apparently Crop is trying to get killed...claiming cop to clear a player who was in no danger at all (unnofficial count = only Cyan voting Az atm...)...
Anyone else think of a reason for this?
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Quote from Sir Blakely »
turbo...my god. you have reached Uber-Nerd-Dom (TM).
So apparently Crop is trying to get killed...claiming cop to clear a player who was in no danger at all (unnofficial count = only Cyan voting Az atm...)...
Anyone else think of a reason for this?
Quote from CropCircles »
I think the mafia should kill me. I think it would be funny.
I agree this is a strange play, but I think there's too many layers of WIFOM here to determine whether CC is really trying to draw the mafia kill or not (assuming he isn't mafia himself). I also think it's best not to speculate as to the nature of his "nugget", or his role, because we want the mafia to have minimal info in trying to deal with him.
I think any speculating we do should be as to whether or not CC is lying. People who think he is telling the truth shouldn't be trying to decipher his role, at least not publicly in the thread.
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I think he's town, possibly (but not necessarily) lying, trying to be ambiguous as to whether the mafia should kill him or not, and succeeding. I approve of uncertainty to the scum, and I disapprove of any attempt at this point to unravel exactly what's going on with him at this point. Information abilities can't be faked successfully for very long; if he's scum trying to mislead us, we will find out sooner rather than later.
I think arimnaes' post right above me is one of those pretending-to-be-helpful things mafia often do where anything actually said is very obvious and designed to say "I'm town!". Ie.
Quote from arimnaes »
I also think it's best not to speculate as to the nature of his "nugget", or his role, because we want the mafia to have minimal info in trying to deal with him.
while at the same time trying to get some assistance in working out whether it's a lie or not
Quote from arimnaes »
I think any speculating we do should be as to whether or not CC is lying.
That would certainly help the scum work out whether they need to kill him or whether it's a trap, but I don't really see how it's in the best interests of the town this minute.
Later on I'll drag out the other stuff that made me watchful on arimnaes, but for now: vote arimnaes.
At the time I was hoping Cyan would see sense. But he continued whining and defending the logic (or lack thereof) supporting his vote on Az, so I ended up voting him. At first I thought he was making an honest mistake, but when he persisted in the face of reason, I began to think he had ulterior motives, hence scum.
Err, but your reasoning at the time was "because we had no better leads at the moment". Not really the same, ya think?
ANd i agree with RafK completely.
Vote Arimnaes
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arimnaes' last post has me more convinced that he is indeed scum. I have had one game (and that abortion called Clan Mafia) as scum, and it certainly seems like something I would try to do, i.e. appearing to contribute, but avoiding anything that would actually help the town too much. Also, RafaelK is right that CC's semi-claim will play out later. It would take some major cojones to claim to have some info to clear a fellow scum, instantly linking both if one goes down, especially when it's unneccessary. Vote stays.
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Personally, im led to believe CC, as to make a claim such as that and be wrong... leads to his death also; one for ones are always good for the town.
unvote, VOTE bateleur
Note to self- LR may be trying to tie CC's truthfulness to whether bat comes up mafia or not. Something to remember later.
Second note to self- CC's claim was not that he'd got any information on bat, only that he gained info on Azrael. The case on bat is (like the case on arimnaes) analytical, not information based.
Third note to self- distinct oddity here is the two largest competing bandwagons don't conflict. Most unusual.
You've got the wrong end of the stick Lord Rahl. CropCircles didn't investigate me, he (allegedly) investigated Azrael. So in fact you're not only lurking, you're also not bothering to read properly ?
The whole CC thing is extremely bizarre if you ask me.
Much as I normally agree with Puzzle's analyses I really don't find this arimnaes bandwagon convincing. My own opinion is that he's been playing well, particularly for a new player. He doesn't look like scum to me because of the list of accusations against him only two are really relevant and his answers to both seem quite reasonable to me.
FOS: Matjoeman for lurking. We hates lurkers, preciousss !
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@Puzzle: What I was saying was that even if CC does not have an information role but he and Az were both scum, CC would obviously have some inside info he could share and say, "Look, I investigated him, he's town and so am I." Obviously in that case, as soon as one of them died we'd take a real close look at and probably lynch the other. That's quite a gambit for CC to pull when it really wasn't all that necessary. That's what I was trying to say.
FoS Bateleur since I don't have 2 votes.
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"Flesh so fine, so fine to tear, to gash the skin; skin to strip, to plait, so nice to plait the strips, so nice, so red the drops that fall; blood so red, so red, so sweet; sweet screams, pretty screams, singing screams, scream your song, sing your screams…” - The Eye of the World - Robert Jordan
With regards to MatJoeMan, he is in Paris for a week. Theoretically, he should be back tomorrow.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I don't like lurkers anymore than you do, bat, but it's kinda funny that you blast Lord Rahl for not keeping up with the thread and then call out MJM for lurking who left a note about being in Paris.
(Don't feel bad, yesterday I had to go back and check why he hadn't taken off his random vote of me yet. But, I did check before typing.)
Back to that, though, the lurker push is often something I've done in the past as scum to stir up concern and generally mislead the town. You've been pretty adamant about it so far this game, and it's rubbing me the wrong way. Having utilized it and understanding it, I see where it comes off as trying to appear helpful while not assisting the town one bit. Lurkers will bring about their own doom soon enough, or be brought to judgment as the game progresses to a point where it's necessary. Day one is not that point.
FoS: Bateleur for the summation of little nuances adding up to scummy behavior. I still don't know that this case is much better than what I've presented on Sgdre (and Passdog subsequently commented on), though, hence no unvote.
I don't even know where to begin with CC. I thought Azrael was the king of Day One gambits. You may have just supplanted him with this. For fear of you going completely nuts and spilling anything else, I'm just going to leave this alone for now.
UnFoS: CropCircles I just think he's lost his mind.
Except you evidently do, because you're happy to let them do their thing until you run out of other leads.
UnFOS: Matjoeman, to whom I apparently owe an apology.
That aside, you should be well aware by now that pursuing lurkers is something I do every game whenever I don't have other leads. With the case against Cyan now dead and even Puzzle abandoning his pursuit of arimnaes that leaves what ? Me ?! I presume you don't expect me to start cross-questioning myself.
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That aside, you should be well aware by now that pursuing lurkers is something I do every game whenever I don't have other leads.
Quote from DYH »
I don't like lurkers anymore than you do, bat, but it's kinda funny that you blast Lord Rahl for not keeping up with the thread and then call out MJM for lurking who left a note about being in Paris.
Quote from Bateleur »
Except you evidently do, because you're happy to let them do their thing until you run out of other leads.
Which is exactly what you've done now that you're out of leads, right? You let them do their thing while you were pursuing other leads. You've just recently started on this lurker-vigilantism; mainly since the attention has become focused on you. Deflection is another potential scum tell.
The point is, I'm not calling them out from the woodwork in posts. That's a tactic I have used as scum in the past, which was what I was pointing out. Abandoning the idea of analysis on those active among us and just firing randomly into the lurker crowd doesn't seem very pro-town. I still have leads and concerns - and you're climbing your way to the top of the list.
Deflection is another potential scum tell. [...] Abandoning the idea of analysis on those active among us and just firing randomly into the lurker crowd doesn't seem very pro-town.
So the idea that you're really creeping up on here is that maybe we're not in quite the same situation as each other right now ?
Incidentally, I should mention that I'm not the slightest bit worried and nor am I going to be unless someone introduces some sort of analysis-based element to the bandwagon against me.
I would vote you back to make things more exciting, but sadly I'm pretty sure you're town. Either that or your play as Mafia has improved radically since Seinfeld Mafia.
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@Puzzle: Bateleur said that the reasons for voting arimnaes weren't valid and we shouldn't be, but I happen to think they are valid, and became suspicious of what appears to me to be a scum trying to get attention off of his buddy.
When I have more time, maybe this weekend, I'll reread again with arimnaes and Bateleur in mind to try to spot anything I may have missed.
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I agree this is a strange play, but I think there's too many layers of WIFOM here to determine whether CC is really trying to draw the mafia kill or not (assuming he isn't mafia himself). I also think it's best not to speculate as to the nature of his "nugget", or his role, because we want the mafia to have minimal info in trying to deal with him.
I think any speculating we do should be as to whether or not CC is lying. People who think he is telling the truth shouldn't be trying to decipher his role, at least not publicly in the thread.
This makes me suspicious. I thought that it was always in the town's best interest to create more discussions and information. On top of everything else that has been said already, I think this is enough for me to Unvote Azrael, Vote Arimnaes.
This makes me suspicious. I thought that it was always in the town's best interest to create more discussions and information. On top of everything else that has been said already, I think this is enough for me to Unvote Azrael, Vote Arimnaes.
In this case any discussion might cause the outing of a investagator.
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If he's an investigator, he's already outed himself for all intents and purposes. He more than 'alluded' to the fact that he has a day ability and used it to 'clear' Azrael, in his own mind at least. Obviously he doesn't want to say exactly what the ability is and that is understandable, but for someone else entirely to say that no one at all should discuss the nature of it seems counterproductive, to me.
We don't have anything to gain by speculating about the nature of CC's ability, unless we believe him to be scum. Personally, I don't see much indication that he is scum, and therefore I see no reason to get that information out of him at the moment.
I don't think he's scum either, though his 'mysterious' nature and the way he totally bandwagoned Bateleur with 2 people that had barely put forth any real evidence themselves makes me suspicious.
Wouldn't we gain from the responses/reactions of people while discussing CC and the nature/believability of his ability? How is this different than discussing whether or not Azrael should have revealed the information that he has? Not trying to be controversial, just curious as to what the difference is..what I'm missing here.
You've got the wrong end of the stick Lord Rahl. CropCircles didn't investigate me, he (allegedly) investigated Azrael. So in fact you're not only lurking, you're also not bothering to read properly ?
The whole CC thing is extremely bizarre if you ask me.
Much as I normally agree with Puzzle's analyses I really don't find this arimnaes bandwagon convincing. My own opinion is that he's been playing well, particularly for a new player. He doesn't look like scum to me because of the list of accusations against him only two are really relevant and his answers to both seem quite reasonable to me.
FOS: Matjoeman for lurking. We hates lurkers, preciousss !
What’s up with this? You offer a non-comment on CC, and then accuse two people of lurking and fos one of them? And then you later say that you were lurker hunting because you have no better leads? I think there are plenty of better leads right now, even if I happen to be one of them.
If you’re going to defend me, you should be much more specific. Right now this looks to me like you’re just scum trying to link me to yourself, rather than actually defend me. I noted that you mentioned the term “new player”, to help remind everyone about “the newb defense” that I seem to have taken heat for. I would be voting you, but it would only serve to make me look like I’m trying to drive people towards you to get them off of me. So for now, fos bateleur.
On the subject of me,
Quote from arimnaes »
I also think it's best not to speculate as to the nature of his "nugget", or his role, because we want the mafia to have minimal info in trying to deal with him.
I think any speculating we do should be as to whether or not CC is lying. People who think he is telling the truth shouldn't be trying to decipher his role, at least not publicly in the thread.
I honestly don’t understand what’s scummy about this. I think it’s a fair question to figure out if he’s telling the truth or lying to us. I don’t think it’s a good idea to needlessly speculate about exactly what info he got, how he got it, or when. I stand by this view, and it’s been expressed by others, as well.
Quote from RafaelK »
I think arimnaes' post right above me is one of those pretending-to-be-helpful things mafia often do where anything actually said is very obvious and designed to say "I'm town!".
Well, sorry if it was obvious to you, but Turbo was already beginning to speculate about the nature of CropCircles’ role. I wanted to put out my opinion that doing so was a bad idea.
Quote from RafaelK »
while at the same time trying to get some assistance in working out whether it's a lie or not
Wouldn’t we want to know whether CC is lying? About having information, I mean. It’s unlikely, but hardly impossible, for CC to being lying to us about being able to clear Az.
Quote from loran16 »
Err, but your reasoning at the time was "because we had no better leads at the moment". Not really the same, ya think?
If you read the post, you will see that that is not the reason I voted Cyan. Allow me to quote it for you:
Quote from arimnaes »
because after rereading the exchange about Azrael he seems more like inexperienced scum trying to start a lame bandwagon than inexperienced town grossly misinterpreting Azrael.
As I said before, that is why I upgraded to a vote on him. Where I previously thought he was making a mistake, on rereading the circumstances and seeing that he wouldn’t quit attacking Az, I began to think there was something more than a mistake going on.
Quote from Machin Shin »
arimnaes' last post has me more convinced that he is indeed scum. I have had one game (and that abortion called Clan Mafia) as scum, and it certainly seems like something I would try to do, i.e. appearing to contribute, but avoiding anything that would actually help the town too much.
My, I’m sorry I didn’t help the town enough. I can see how that makes me more scummy than the people who’ve contributed virtually nothing at all.
Quote from Cyan »
This makes me suspicious. I thought that it was always in the town's best interest to create more discussions and information. On top of everything else that has been said already, I think this is enough for me to Unvote Azrael, Vote Arimnaes.
It is not helpful to the town discuss the exact nature of investigative roles. It is helpful to the scum, because it gives them an idea of how to counter those roles.
Quote from Cyan »
Wouldn't we gain from the responses/reactions of people while discussing CC and the nature/believability of his ability? How is this different than discussing whether or not Azrael should have revealed the information that he has?
The believability, maybe. The nature, definitely not. When Azrael gave his info, he didn't say how he got it. Inquiring about the veracity of the info is perfectly legitimate, but there's no reason to speculate about where it came from.
Yeah, I guess that makes sense. If you ever fully reveal/have anything to reveal. I guess you wouldn't say that you did otherwise since it'd just get you lynched if you kept stalling about revealing once people put pressure on you to do so.
We don't really have any need to have CC claim for now and probably won't until full claim stage. Unless you are strongly suspicious of Azrael it seems to be a believable partial claim and also explains his bandwagoning on bateleur. If you've learned that you can trust a person then it makes sense to be willing to trust their opinion.
I'm not really in favor of either of the current bandwagons. FOSing lurkers seldom results in anything more than the lurker just making a "Sorry. I've been busy" post. The initial cause of his bandwagon seems to be him agreeing with DYH's argument on Sgdre and keeping an FOS on Cyan after unvoting despite his solid claim. The only thing there that seems significant to me is his agreement with DYH's flimsy logic, but going over the post DYH did have a pretty persuasive spin on things.
Due to the accumulation of minor things I'll put out an FOS: Bateleur but I don't see anything really standing out to me as a scum tell.
Arimnaes' wagon seems to be based mostly around Puzzles case. (Numbered for reference)
Quote from puzzle »
the fact that he took a general FOS as a comment for himself (#150)
1 the introductory noobie-scuzzy post #6 "And my first game with "the pros", so to speak."
2 the fact that he didn't vote Cyan in #94 (FOS), #98 or #100 but did in #108 (after Chimpanzee's vote in #106)
3 the justification of this fifth vote, when the wagon is growing, by "until something better comes along,"
4 now #187, where he underlines he didn't use the noobie-scuzzy defense in #150 (hence using it in this post)
5 the colour of his lightsaber, obviously stolen from Yoda
1- Not much to be gained from introductory posts and it is his first non-newb game anyway.
2- In his vote he says that he reread the exchange between Cyan and Azrael and got a clearer interpretation.
3- It is a wierd line but it is true in most bandwagons. You attack the person who is currently most scummy to you. If someone becomes scummier you usually switch bandwagons because the whole point is to pursue scumminess.
4- Reading [url=http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=971708&postcount=187]#187[/post] he is just saying that he also hates when people use the newb defense and did not in fact use it.
You seem to suggest (or somebody did) that I was employing the newb defense, when the part of my post that had to do with my newbieness was unrelated to defending me. I don't think the newb defense is logically sound or that newbs should get special treatment, and I wasn't asking for any such treatment. If I'd said, "OMG passdog why are you fosing me I am teh nubz", then I could see where you were coming from.
Buh? I would think a mafioso or cultist would be much more defensive about having to claim. Am I missing something, or am I just a retarded noob?
Here is the part of his post that he is accused of using the noob defense for. (Puzzle didn't specifically mention it when he voted Arimnaes but DYH brought it up later). It doesn't seem to me like he is using the noob defense, he's just asking if he's misinterpreting something in a slightly self-degrading way.
5- Luke Skywalker also used a green lightsaber in Return of the Jedi, he could have borrowed it from him.
So I really don't understand this bandwagon. Is there something I'm missing?
There are too many people trying to associate players as scum partners. All this 'arimnaes and bat are scum togeher' and like minded points have no true value at this stage of the game. By getting into the mindset that players are affiliated this early on you put yourself up for a big fall later.
What if we lynch bat or arimnaes, whoever it is turns up town and we let the other slide because they were affiliated on day 1? or the other way round one is mafia and we unjustifiably lynch the other who is town?
All I'm saying is stop looking at players as pairs at this stage (therefore stop arguing that a particular person is protecting his scum buddy) and just argue against the individual. Later when we have som actual fact based indicators then we should look back at who was chummy with who.
PS: I agree with Chimp above. I don't find either of them particularly suspicious.
Okay, I thought would check in since i havent posted in a while.
I'm still feeling bad about Arimnaes. His original vote on Cyan, while it does have that clause after it, does make it seem like he's voting on Cyan because he's suspicious to the town, a seemingly scummy reason.
Now he's FOSed Bateleur, who is the only other percieved scummy person for no other reason than the fact that Bate, not thinking arim is scum, saw no other leads? I really dont understand this. Vote Stands.
I dont see the really point on the wagon on Bate, at least not until his lurker hunting. That said, i dont think its that scummy considering that like he said, he has no other leads, and i really dont think he was going to advocate voting one of the lurkers, but rather was trying to get them to post. Besides that, I see little of the reasoning of Bate's wagon. Can someone explain?
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There are too many people trying to associate players as scum partners. All this 'arimnaes and bat are scum togeher' and like minded points have no true value at this stage of the game. By getting into the mindset that players are affiliated this early on you put yourself up for a big fall later.
What if we lynch bat or arimnaes, whoever it is turns up town and we let the other slide because they were affiliated on day 1? or the other way round one is mafia and we unjustifiably lynch the other who is town?
All I'm saying is stop looking at players as pairs at this stage (therefore stop arguing that a particular person is protecting his scum buddy) and just argue against the individual. Later when we have som actual fact based indicators then we should look back at who was chummy with who.
PS: I agree with Chimp above. I don't find either of them particularly suspicious.
I find bat, arimnaes, passdog and chimp to be suspicious because they form a self-contained defensive ring. If it's right, I'm amazing, if it's 100% wrong, well, that's day 1 guesses for you.
FWIW, arimnaes last post SCREAMS either of distancing tactics or else of an attempt to get rid of the pressure by focussing everyone on the other bandwagon.
I find bat, arimnaes, passdog and chimp to be suspicious because they form a self-contained defensive ring. If it's right, I'm amazing, if it's 100% wrong, well, that's day 1 guesses for you.
Can you cite any examples other than chimp's and passdog's last posts? If so, then you're entitled to your opinion. But if not, then this amounts to "I find Passdog and Chimp suspicious because they just disagreed with me."
Quote from RafaelK »
arimnaes last post SCREAMS either of distancing tactics or else of an attempt to get rid of the pressure by focussing everyone on the other bandwagon.
Or it could be me expressing an opinion. If bateleur wants to defend me, then he should make a cogent argument. His reference to me in his post didn't seem like a genuine defense, but just an attempt to link us in peoples' minds. And, if your reaction is any judge, it seems to have worked.
Rather then simply restate the reasons already posted by others, I will say that I agree with them and will Vote:bateleur. Fos: Arimnaes for some of the same reasons as bat. Arimnaes could possibly try to claim newb as a defense but Bat could not.
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All I'm saying is stop looking at players as pairs at this stage (therefore stop arguing that a particular person is protecting his scum buddy) and just argue against the individual. Later when we have som actual fact based indicators then we should look back at who was chummy with who.
QFT.
With the growing wagon on bat, I would like to request a Vote Count.
I find bat, arimnaes, passdog and chimp to be suspicious because they form a self-contained defensive ring. If it's right, I'm amazing, if it's 100% wrong, well, that's day 1 guesses for you.
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
The co-ordinated reactions to that prod were positively stunning.
Especially the bit where arimnaes goes out to bat for chimp and passdog. See, why is arimnaes defending chimp and passdog? How does arimnaes know there's no chimp-passdog connection?
The three answers:
1) arimnaes is scum and chimp and passdog are too
2) arimnaes is scum and knows chimp and passdog aren't scum, so is getting in with them by defending them
3) arimnaes is stupid and is choosing to defend chimp and passdog despite not knowing squat
I don't like 3. I like 1 or 2. Vote stands on arimnaes.
Just chiming in to say that my vote on loran is still what I think is best. Since being initially targeted he has become very contrite, trying to fly below radar, and is sticking to the 'low hanging fruit' voting.
Just chiming in to say that my vote on loran is still what I think is best. Since being initially targeted he has become very contrite, trying to fly below radar, and is sticking to the 'low hanging fruit' voting.
*rolls eyes.* Yep, going after the townie with the most votes. Which is why i'm voting Bateleur. Oh wait.....,I'm not. *rolls eyes again*.
On a different note, RafK, I really dislike seeing someone try and group a bunch of people together this early based on little information. FOS RafK. I think Arimnaes is most likely scum at this point, but i do not like grouping a bunch of players together this early as odds are that such a group really doenst exist and could lead the town to mislynch. Of your three considerations, #2 is the most likely of them by far and #1 should not even be thought of at this point.
Lets not set up groups of scum in our mind before we even get the confirmation of a person's alignment at the end of today, okay?
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Mafia MVP Harry Potter Mafia!
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
The 'low hanging fruit' isn't the person with the most votes. It's the easiest target: bateleur is the more experienced player thereby making arimnaes an easier target.
EBWODP:
Funny that the second half of your post is merely a repetion of the points made by others (admittedly added to a FoS).
Machin Shin tells it like it is: better to post to the thread giving an opinion even if you have no new ideas.
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
"I know nothing of the law, only vengence" -Dom, U/G madness
[The Family]
Passdog fosed a group of people voting Cyan at the time, but didn’t name names. I think it’s reasonable to want to know whether I was being fosed or not.
No comment on this one. I posted what I posted, and you can interpret it how you will. Unless I start asking for special treatment for being a noob, which I haven’t, I don’t think it’s particularly “scuzzy.”
At the time I was hoping Cyan would see sense. But he continued whining and defending the logic (or lack thereof) supporting his vote on Az, so I ended up voting him. At first I thought he was making an honest mistake, but when he persisted in the face of reason, I began to think he had ulterior motives, hence scum.
That is not my entire justification. See above.
Wait, so, pointing out that I didn’t use the newb defense is using the newb defense?
Just because I’m a dark lord of the sith doesn’t make me scum. Geeeeeez.
(Unless I'm Darth Vader, the SK. ;))
Arimnaes: Pointing out that you didn't use the noobie defense as a pro for your defense is probably weaker than actually using the noobie defense.
3CB and 4CB5CB!See that "recent?" Gogo day investigation.
[The Family]
I call bs.
Town/Mafia/Other - 14/6/3
Win/Lose/Tie - 11/12/0
Nk/lynched/Survived - 16/4/3
[The Family]
Anyone else think of a reason for this?
I think the mafia should kill me. I think it would be funny.
[The Family]
I think any speculating we do should be as to whether or not CC is lying. People who think he is telling the truth shouldn't be trying to decipher his role, at least not publicly in the thread.
Official Vote Count
Disrupt_Your_Hymn - 1 (Matjoeman)
Azrael - 1 (Cyan)
loran16 - 3 (HAWKEYE7, Passdog, Lord rahl)
arimnaes - 3 (Puzzle, armlx, Machin Shin)
sgdre - 1 (Disrupt_Your_Hymn)
bateleur - 3 (Azrael, chamber, CropCircles)
With 22 alive it will take 12 to lynch.
I think arimnaes' post right above me is one of those pretending-to-be-helpful things mafia often do where anything actually said is very obvious and designed to say "I'm town!". Ie.
while at the same time trying to get some assistance in working out whether it's a lie or not That would certainly help the scum work out whether they need to kill him or whether it's a trap, but I don't really see how it's in the best interests of the town this minute.
Later on I'll drag out the other stuff that made me watchful on arimnaes, but for now: vote arimnaes.
Err, but your reasoning at the time was "because we had no better leads at the moment". Not really the same, ya think?
ANd i agree with RafK completely.
Vote Arimnaes
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
unvote, VOTE bateleur
Note to self- LR may be trying to tie CC's truthfulness to whether bat comes up mafia or not. Something to remember later.
Second note to self- CC's claim was not that he'd got any information on bat, only that he gained info on Azrael. The case on bat is (like the case on arimnaes) analytical, not information based.
Third note to self- distinct oddity here is the two largest competing bandwagons don't conflict. Most unusual.
The whole CC thing is extremely bizarre if you ask me.
Much as I normally agree with Puzzle's analyses I really don't find this arimnaes bandwagon convincing. My own opinion is that he's been playing well, particularly for a new player. He doesn't look like scum to me because of the list of accusations against him only two are really relevant and his answers to both seem quite reasonable to me.
FOS: Matjoeman for lurking. We hates lurkers, preciousss !
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
FoS Bateleur since I don't have 2 votes.
(Don't feel bad, yesterday I had to go back and check why he hadn't taken off his random vote of me yet. But, I did check before typing.)
Back to that, though, the lurker push is often something I've done in the past as scum to stir up concern and generally mislead the town. You've been pretty adamant about it so far this game, and it's rubbing me the wrong way. Having utilized it and understanding it, I see where it comes off as trying to appear helpful while not assisting the town one bit. Lurkers will bring about their own doom soon enough, or be brought to judgment as the game progresses to a point where it's necessary. Day one is not that point.
FoS: Bateleur for the summation of little nuances adding up to scummy behavior. I still don't know that this case is much better than what I've presented on Sgdre (and Passdog subsequently commented on), though, hence no unvote.
I don't even know where to begin with CC. I thought Azrael was the king of Day One gambits. You may have just supplanted him with this. For fear of you going completely nuts and spilling anything else, I'm just going to leave this alone for now.
UnFoS: CropCircles I just think he's lost his mind.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Except you evidently do, because you're happy to let them do their thing until you run out of other leads.
UnFOS: Matjoeman, to whom I apparently owe an apology.
That aside, you should be well aware by now that pursuing lurkers is something I do every game whenever I don't have other leads. With the case against Cyan now dead and even Puzzle abandoning his pursuit of arimnaes that leaves what ? Me ?! I presume you don't expect me to start cross-questioning myself.
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
Seriously, though:
Which is exactly what you've done now that you're out of leads, right? You let them do their thing while you were pursuing other leads. You've just recently started on this lurker-vigilantism; mainly since the attention has become focused on you. Deflection is another potential scum tell.
The point is, I'm not calling them out from the woodwork in posts. That's a tactic I have used as scum in the past, which was what I was pointing out. Abandoning the idea of analysis on those active among us and just firing randomly into the lurker crowd doesn't seem very pro-town. I still have leads and concerns - and you're climbing your way to the top of the list.
In fact, Unvote, Vote: Bateleur.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
So the idea that you're really creeping up on here is that maybe we're not in quite the same situation as each other right now ?
Incidentally, I should mention that I'm not the slightest bit worried and nor am I going to be unless someone introduces some sort of analysis-based element to the bandwagon against me.
I would vote you back to make things more exciting, but sadly I'm pretty sure you're town. Either that or your play as Mafia has improved radically since Seinfeld Mafia.
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
When I have more time, maybe this weekend, I'll reread again with arimnaes and Bateleur in mind to try to spot anything I may have missed.
Regardless, I do play a much better townie.
And yes, you're correct, we're not in a similar situation in this game at all. I'm town and you're not.
EWP: BLARGH, Sarnath'd by Puzzle.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
This makes me suspicious. I thought that it was always in the town's best interest to create more discussions and information. On top of everything else that has been said already, I think this is enough for me to Unvote Azrael, Vote Arimnaes.
In this case any discussion might cause the outing of a investagator.
"I know nothing of the law, only vengence" -Dom, U/G madness
Wouldn't we gain from the responses/reactions of people while discussing CC and the nature/believability of his ability? How is this different than discussing whether or not Azrael should have revealed the information that he has? Not trying to be controversial, just curious as to what the difference is..what I'm missing here.
What’s up with this? You offer a non-comment on CC, and then accuse two people of lurking and fos one of them? And then you later say that you were lurker hunting because you have no better leads? I think there are plenty of better leads right now, even if I happen to be one of them.
If you’re going to defend me, you should be much more specific. Right now this looks to me like you’re just scum trying to link me to yourself, rather than actually defend me. I noted that you mentioned the term “new player”, to help remind everyone about “the newb defense” that I seem to have taken heat for. I would be voting you, but it would only serve to make me look like I’m trying to drive people towards you to get them off of me. So for now, fos bateleur.
On the subject of me,
I honestly don’t understand what’s scummy about this. I think it’s a fair question to figure out if he’s telling the truth or lying to us. I don’t think it’s a good idea to needlessly speculate about exactly what info he got, how he got it, or when. I stand by this view, and it’s been expressed by others, as well.
Well, sorry if it was obvious to you, but Turbo was already beginning to speculate about the nature of CropCircles’ role. I wanted to put out my opinion that doing so was a bad idea.
Wouldn’t we want to know whether CC is lying? About having information, I mean. It’s unlikely, but hardly impossible, for CC to being lying to us about being able to clear Az.
If you read the post, you will see that that is not the reason I voted Cyan. Allow me to quote it for you:
As I said before, that is why I upgraded to a vote on him. Where I previously thought he was making a mistake, on rereading the circumstances and seeing that he wouldn’t quit attacking Az, I began to think there was something more than a mistake going on.
My, I’m sorry I didn’t help the town enough. I can see how that makes me more scummy than the people who’ve contributed virtually nothing at all.
It is not helpful to the town discuss the exact nature of investigative roles. It is helpful to the scum, because it gives them an idea of how to counter those roles.
The believability, maybe. The nature, definitely not. When Azrael gave his info, he didn't say how he got it. Inquiring about the veracity of the info is perfectly legitimate, but there's no reason to speculate about where it came from.
[The Family]
I'm not really in favor of either of the current bandwagons. FOSing lurkers seldom results in anything more than the lurker just making a "Sorry. I've been busy" post. The initial cause of his bandwagon seems to be him agreeing with DYH's argument on Sgdre and keeping an FOS on Cyan after unvoting despite his solid claim. The only thing there that seems significant to me is his agreement with DYH's flimsy logic, but going over the post DYH did have a pretty persuasive spin on things.
Due to the accumulation of minor things I'll put out an FOS: Bateleur but I don't see anything really standing out to me as a scum tell.
Arimnaes' wagon seems to be based mostly around Puzzles case. (Numbered for reference)
1- Not much to be gained from introductory posts and it is his first non-newb game anyway.
2- In his vote he says that he reread the exchange between Cyan and Azrael and got a clearer interpretation.
3- It is a wierd line but it is true in most bandwagons. You attack the person who is currently most scummy to you. If someone becomes scummier you usually switch bandwagons because the whole point is to pursue scumminess.
4- Reading [url=http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=971708&postcount=187]#187[/post] he is just saying that he also hates when people use the newb defense and did not in fact use it.
Here is the part of his post that he is accused of using the noob defense for. (Puzzle didn't specifically mention it when he voted Arimnaes but DYH brought it up later). It doesn't seem to me like he is using the noob defense, he's just asking if he's misinterpreting something in a slightly self-degrading way.
5- Luke Skywalker also used a green lightsaber in Return of the Jedi, he could have borrowed it from him.
So I really don't understand this bandwagon. Is there something I'm missing?
3CB and 4CB5CB!What if we lynch bat or arimnaes, whoever it is turns up town and we let the other slide because they were affiliated on day 1? or the other way round one is mafia and we unjustifiably lynch the other who is town?
All I'm saying is stop looking at players as pairs at this stage (therefore stop arguing that a particular person is protecting his scum buddy) and just argue against the individual. Later when we have som actual fact based indicators then we should look back at who was chummy with who.
PS: I agree with Chimp above. I don't find either of them particularly suspicious.
I'm still feeling bad about Arimnaes. His original vote on Cyan, while it does have that clause after it, does make it seem like he's voting on Cyan because he's suspicious to the town, a seemingly scummy reason.
Now he's FOSed Bateleur, who is the only other percieved scummy person for no other reason than the fact that Bate, not thinking arim is scum, saw no other leads? I really dont understand this. Vote Stands.
I dont see the really point on the wagon on Bate, at least not until his lurker hunting. That said, i dont think its that scummy considering that like he said, he has no other leads, and i really dont think he was going to advocate voting one of the lurkers, but rather was trying to get them to post. Besides that, I see little of the reasoning of Bate's wagon. Can someone explain?
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
I find bat, arimnaes, passdog and chimp to be suspicious because they form a self-contained defensive ring. If it's right, I'm amazing, if it's 100% wrong, well, that's day 1 guesses for you.
FWIW, arimnaes last post SCREAMS either of distancing tactics or else of an attempt to get rid of the pressure by focussing everyone on the other bandwagon.
Or it could be me expressing an opinion. If bateleur wants to defend me, then he should make a cogent argument. His reference to me in his post didn't seem like a genuine defense, but just an attempt to link us in peoples' minds. And, if your reaction is any judge, it seems to have worked.
Rather then simply restate the reasons already posted by others, I will say that I agree with them and will Vote:bateleur.
Fos: Arimnaes for some of the same reasons as bat. Arimnaes could possibly try to claim newb as a defense but Bat could not.
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Random Mafia 3 - Town MVP
With the growing wagon on bat, I would like to request a Vote Count.
[The Family]
You're not amazing.
Disrupt_Your_Hymn - 1 (Matjoeman)
loran16 - 1 (Passdog)
arimnaes - 5 (armlx, Machin Shin, Rafaelk, loran16, Cyan)
bateleur - 7 (Azrael, chamber, CropCircles, Lord rahl, Puzzle, Disrupt_Your_Hymn, HAWKEYE7)
With 22 alive it will take 12 to lynch.
[The Family]
Especially the bit where arimnaes goes out to bat for chimp and passdog. See, why is arimnaes defending chimp and passdog? How does arimnaes know there's no chimp-passdog connection?
The three answers:
1) arimnaes is scum and chimp and passdog are too
2) arimnaes is scum and knows chimp and passdog aren't scum, so is getting in with them by defending them
3) arimnaes is stupid and is choosing to defend chimp and passdog despite not knowing squat
I don't like 3. I like 1 or 2. Vote stands on arimnaes.
See RafK's post for logic behind the vote.
On another note, I am desperately in need of a reread of the last 6-8 pgs, so Im gonna get on that.
*rolls eyes.* Yep, going after the townie with the most votes. Which is why i'm voting Bateleur. Oh wait.....,I'm not. *rolls eyes again*.
On a different note, RafK, I really dislike seeing someone try and group a bunch of people together this early based on little information. FOS RafK. I think Arimnaes is most likely scum at this point, but i do not like grouping a bunch of players together this early as odds are that such a group really doenst exist and could lead the town to mislynch. Of your three considerations, #2 is the most likely of them by far and #1 should not even be thought of at this point.
Lets not set up groups of scum in our mind before we even get the confirmation of a person's alignment at the end of today, okay?
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
EBWODP:
Funny that the second half of your post is merely a repetion of the points made by others (admittedly added to a FoS).