QFT. Puzzle and I had a conversation very similar to this. Reinstating the 'lynch all lurkers' metagame ploy may become necessary around these parts for a bit.
This game was a significant power-up from my last game (LoTR for those who don't know). In some ways it was an experiment to test my ability to balance things with lots of good abilities getting thrown around by both sides. I'm reasonably satisfied with the results. The Mafia was strong. Too strong? Possibly.
I started with a 14-5-1 type set up. I decided early on that these numbers favored the mafia, so I quickly threw 2 more bodies in on the side of the town. I wanted to reduce the number of vanilla roles (though not completely eliminate them, of course), so all but three town had some sort of useful ability (though several were 1-Shot.) I also decided on the Cop Headstart (which worried me a bit because the town had 2 full time Cops), but, again, I justified it because the Mafia Power level was high, and I didn't want the same thing to happen this game as in LoTR (three people die Night 1 and never get to play at all).
Having Bat have an extra life was a late-in-the-game development. Believe it or not, the role was originally going to be town. But in the interests of making things as unpredictable as possible, I decided to mix it up a bit. At one point, the mafia was going to have MatJoe's ability. Which doesn't benefit them at all, but sure makes his claim pretty. Ultimately, I felt Bat. was balanced by the numbers disparity (giving the town the extra bodies) as well as all the Investigation roles. And, of course, Puzzle's ability to take it away from him.
Chamber's ability to void one lynch is also good. Possibly broken, but I thought it was balanced by MatJoe's ability to skip the Night, as well as Puzzle's ability to take it away from him. In addition, I thought if Chamber came across as looking too "cleared" he would become a prime SK target. But instead, he flew under the radar so successfully that not only did he never have to claim his ability, he never even had to use it.
Quark was a real wild card role. Normally I hate random, but I couldn't resist in this case. As a player, I never want to be in a situation where the town has to "trust" that the Mod. is playing fair with "random" die rolls behind the scenes--so much potential for the Mod to fudge the results to "make the game more even/interesting," which is why I made it so the roll happened right out in the open. I like the way it came out.
The "safe" claims were another major factor. The game was designed (as before) so that a mass claim up front wouldn't break the game wide open. But I may have underestimated just how strong the claims were, or what the effect of perfect safe claims would be. Cyan's butt was saved day 1 solely on the strength of his claim, and it seemed like so many people mentally checked him off as "clear" then, that no one really felt like going back and re-visiting him, even after the info. came out about the Mirror Universe, and the Phasor. I mean, people mentioned that he wasn't "clear" anymore, but no one did anything about it. And, of course, no Cop ever took a look at him.
I scattered the Mafia/SK across the 4 Star Trek Series that I used. There was no obvious pattern. I also scattered them across the Ranks, but I did have a Mafia GF Captain (as one might have guessed), and there was a Mafia among the Doctors (two even!)
No one did any kind of analysis along these lines until the last day. Xyre in particular, came out of the gates very strongly, fingering both Cyan and Chamber. I also thought Cyan looked extremely suspicious sitting there as the only remaining Original Series character (aside from Kirk, who couldn't really have been Mafia). I was impressed, especially since Xyre was such a late game replacement (thank you again, Xyre). But Xyre rapidly abandoned his own theories, soon declaring both of them among his most cleared, and fell back into lynching Passdog with everyone else.
Ultimately, I think the perfect safe claims encouraged Townie laziness. That and all the replacing that occurred. Everyone assumed they weren't going to learn anything, so they didn't even ask. No one looked for any patterns, because they assumed I wouldn't have them.
Next time, I doubt I'll make claiming quite so easy for the mafia. Beware!
Trivia: The was a Borg Cult in the original version of the game. At the time I first designed it (July of last year) there hadn't been a game on Salvation with a Cult, so it seemed like an Original idea. 7 of 9 would have been the Borg Queen. But after LoTR, it seemed like every other game that ran had a Cult in it, right up to Armlx's Random 2 Mafia which actually had a Borg Queen Cult. So I decided it wasn't original anymore and dropped it. I don't like Cults anyway.
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
A point of Mafia theory that I would like to discuss here:
Currently, I am strongly advocating that at the start of large games, cops should be checking quieter players. We are all aware of the "active players become magnets" phenomenon when it comes to certain abilities, and I think we are more productive by checking quieter players. The reasoning is that active players are going to get involved in arguments anyway, so we'll have plenty of in-thread evidence to analyze, but the ones who don't talk are too easily escaping notice. More coverage = better.
As the game progesses, of course, it becomes more profitable to determine the alignments of the active players. But early on, I don't think it's as important. We also get this bonus: if the cop can clear multiple quiet townies, then we 1) make the mafia decide between killing cleared townies who don't talk and uncleared townies who do, and 2) we can narrow the field down to the active players, who we have much more evidence on.
Having pondered the various options a bit, I think Quark was mad to use his power on Night 1. There was only a 1 in 10 chance of a result that was more good than bad and a whopping 6 in 10 chance of something bad.
It's clearly a late-game ability, only becoming worth using once Quark has reasonable targets for any 1-shot he might gain.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
--
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
I think the great claims by the mafia really helped them. I mean can you really lynch Bones?
Also the night I died, right after I sent my action I knew it was a mistake to not roll. I had painted a huge target on me the least I could have done is saved myself or Arimnaes. Whats more I should have told chamber I was the night communicator. I thought about that because I trusted Arimnaes but not chamber and me and Arimnaes had come to the agreement that I was town. However I didn't implment that. My plan was if me or Arimnaes died we should lynch chamber but I kept that to myself. So if I had lived I think I might have gotten chamber due to him being in on the night communication.
Good job mafia though. It was a really good setup and a fun game.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"No, I specifically heard denim. Looks like so crafty ghost is trying to break our code" -Bravo 3 "I know nothing of the law, only vengence" -Dom, U/G madness
It wouldn't have mattered if you'd told Chamber anything, I don't think. As mafia, we knew the following: The 3-way communication was established by Lt. Uhura, Communications Officer(it said exactly this in the PM that I received about it, and I assume it said so in Chamber's as well). Arimnaes was in both groups..the only logical conclusion was that Arimnaes=Uhura. I agree though, had you lived, you would have been able to finger Chamber and then myself as well. Good thing that we killed you to prevent that from happening.
I think that randomly killing MJM might have been one of our best plays. Like, the entirety of that conversation was me saying 'none of the active players seem like good NK targets, lets just kill a lurker..Matjoeman seems like a good choice'.
I don't think I would have gotten you cyan. Even if I could finger you I couldn't get the town to follow me.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"No, I specifically heard denim. Looks like so crafty ghost is trying to break our code" -Bravo 3 "I know nothing of the law, only vengence" -Dom, U/G madness
If Chamber came up scum(especially since Az died that night as well and was shown to be town), I'm positive that I would have gotten lynched next, on the theory that the night communication groups consisted of 2 townies and 1 scum.
At first I thought it was my fault Arimnaes got killed because we showed up a little tight but I guess it didn't matter. Cyan I wanted to lynch you when I checked in the game later but I still don't think I would try. I had you pegged as town but later I started to sift towards you as mafia. Still I think that you were pretty much in the clear.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"No, I specifically heard denim. Looks like so crafty ghost is trying to break our code" -Bravo 3 "I know nothing of the law, only vengence" -Dom, U/G madness
argh. I wish I could have been resurrected during day 3, even for just one post. This was my death PM:
Quote from Axelrod »
You shut down your communications for the Night, hopeful that the information shared will again lead to productive results the following day.
Alas, you do not see the shadowy figure in the hallway following you. As you prepare to enter your quarters, you hear a sound. You turn and find yourself staring down the proverbial barrel of a Phasor—a Phasor held by a Vulcan!
Before you can move, before you can even cry out, he fires! You are blasted backwards, and as the life leaves your body, you hear his voice, speaking almost to himself.
“You were the logical choice, you see. We really can’t have you linking up members of the town every night, can we? We do appreciate your linking us in as well though.”
You have been killed. Please, no further communication with anyone still playing the game. Thank you for your participation.
Which meant that either Cyan, or Chamber, or both, had to be mafia. I knew chamber was after day 3, because he outright lied about what went on during the night 0 communications, which ended up being solely between Kokusho and myself.
Day 1 was a comedy of errors from my point of view. I thought for sure RafaelK was going to get me lynched, and then all of a sudden Kokusho says "I have inside info he is town." Which shocked the pants off me, because even if he had me pegged as being Uhura, he had been given no assurances of me being town. I would have been one happy camper if I had been mafia, but, extremely fortunately, Kokusho was on the money. And then, of course, I knew he had to be town, because sticking his neck out for me would have made no sense as mafia. So basically... free mason pair, plz.
You have been Involved in a Transporter Mishap, and then Killed!
First, your DNA and/or Personal Effects have been abruptly switched with those of another player. As a result of this the two of you have switched abilities.
You no longer have any useful abilities.
As it turns out, however, you won’t have any time to miss your lost abilities, because as you are returning to your quarters for the evening, a silent figure approaches from behind. You feel, rather than see, the sting of something being injected into the back of your neck. The toxin works quickly, completely paralyzing your body. Including your lungs. You can no longer breathe.
As the light fades from your eyes you see what appears to be a Human male, in a Starfleet medical doctor’s uniform standing over you. It is a face you should remember, after all, you have lived on the same Space Station for years together. But this face is not like the one you knew. This face is hard, and cruel, and pure evil.
You have been killed. Please, no further communication with anyone still playing the game. Thank you very much for your participation
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"No, I specifically heard denim. Looks like so crafty ghost is trying to break our code" -Bravo 3 "I know nothing of the law, only vengence" -Dom, U/G madness
Tonight the task of eliminating Kokusho falls to you. You pull out your hypospray, conveniently loaded with the most lethal of nerve toxins. You approach silently from behind, and he never hears you coming. One quick application to the back of his neck, and the deed is done. His body collapses to the floor, and you return swiftly to your quarters, well satisfied with your night’s work.
*twiches*
Well at least the town gained 25 life....
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"No, I specifically heard denim. Looks like so crafty ghost is trying to break our code" -Bravo 3 "I know nothing of the law, only vengence" -Dom, U/G madness
I never killed anybody, heh...was too busy applying my Tri-Corder. Not the most useful ability ever, but, I'm happy that I helped find the SK(especially since it was Loran, heh), and my ability was ambiguous enough that I stay alive for the entire game.
The town was too fragmented. I had actually considered trying to push against Cyan earlier, but I wasn't sure enough yet that I was willing to go up against more resistance from the town. Hawkeye had rather burned me out. I'm still not sure what he was trying to accomplish, but I hope he can at least see that playing that way is sure to raise eyebrows, whether or not he's actually town.
Fade I knew before I did it that playing as I did would raise some eyebrows. I had banked on the town seeing the truth of what i was saying even though I was obviously with holding information. All the explainations I gave and all the possibilities I put forth were true. After the fact I'm sure that the value of what i was trying to do can be seen. The method did raise eyebrows but i did not believe that the town would be lead down the path to a lynch when it was completely not neccessary. What harm really would have been done by letting the play go through?
The harm was that I refused to simply surrender the third power role that was exposed and handed over to the mafia by the town demanding that players comply with a clearly misguilded demand for vital role information to be revealed. I stated this very clearly many times and many players, not just Puzzle only saw my refusal to comply, not that I was arguing against a clearly anti-town demand.
I had pegged Cyan from almost the very beginning. He was the common thread in almost all the truely suspicious activity I saw. I was completely wrong about Azreal though and I was pretty sure Fade was town.
Sorry Azreal.
This reminds me of my early reaction and interaction with another excellent player, Highroller. In the first few games I played with him in them we had the same reaction to our playing styles. Thankfully that has since changed.
If I could have gotten the chance to force Cyan to inspect me at night I wonder what result would have come back. No race?, hologram? I'm not sure. I was pretty sure that by forcing him to investigate me I would expose him as scum though. I was also sure that by revealing my being a hologram, someone with a multi setting phasor would have put two and two together and set it to the highest level which would kill me. Otherwise the mafia might have wasted a night kill trying to kill me and failing that risk exsposing themselves trying to get me lynched.
I did not lie about my role name. "the Doctor" is a title not a proper name for the hologram. as such I viewed him as, technically, not having a proper role name.
All that being said, a hearty congratulations to the mafia and to Cyan for an excellent job.
I am very sorry that my being so distracted by outside circumstances effected the game. I would like to, again, sincerely apologize and thank Axelrod for his graciousness and to everyone else in the game.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
RELAPSED MAFIA JUNKIE
W – 33, L – 19, Broke Games - 9
Calvin & Hobbs Mafia, Mafia MVP
X-Men Mafia Town MVP
Simpson's Mafia - best use of character
Mtgnews Mafia Mafia - Town Madman
Mythos Mafia: the Dunwich Massacre Town MVP
English Literature Mafia Town MVP
Best Role-Playing Sin City Mafia
Werewolf Mafia - Mafia MVP
Doctor Mafia - Mafia MVP
Mafia: Escape from the Cylons - Town MVP
Lost Mafia - Co SK Winner with Kops
Random Mafia 3 - Town MVP
Why would forcing me to investigate you have 'exposed' me as scum? I imagine that it simply would not have worked...also, I don't think that you can Phasor a hologram on any setting, honestly. The reason that you got lynched, IMO, is because you claimed Vanilla initially and then just refused to provide further information, and this didn't really add up. Considering that you were NK immune, I don't really understand why you didn't just claim your role and let us waste an NK trying to kill you.
Why would forcing me to investigate you have 'exposed' me as scum? I imagine that it simply would not have worked...also, I don't think that you can Phasor a hologram on any setting, honestly. The reason that you got lynched, IMO, is because you claimed Vanilla initially and then just refused to provide further information, and this didn't really add up. Considering that you were NK immune, I don't really understand why you didn't just claim your role and let us waste an NK trying to kill you.
I did claim my role.
I was vanilla. this is again not a lie on my part. It is hair splitting I will admit but not a lie. I was the back up doctor. I had no ability until the real doctor was killed. Until then I was an almost un-night killable, possibly very hard to racially investigate hologram.
If I'm not mistaken the highest setting listed forthe phasor listed hologram. Also Axelrod indicated that I was extremely hard to kill at night but not completely immune. I also wanted to try to force you to use your ability and failing that draw as much attention to you as possible.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
RELAPSED MAFIA JUNKIE
W – 33, L – 19, Broke Games - 9
Calvin & Hobbs Mafia, Mafia MVP
X-Men Mafia Town MVP
Simpson's Mafia - best use of character
Mtgnews Mafia Mafia - Town Madman
Mythos Mafia: the Dunwich Massacre Town MVP
English Literature Mafia Town MVP
Best Role-Playing Sin City Mafia
Werewolf Mafia - Mafia MVP
Doctor Mafia - Mafia MVP
Mafia: Escape from the Cylons - Town MVP
Lost Mafia - Co SK Winner with Kops
Random Mafia 3 - Town MVP
I freely admit I was spltting hairs but at the time I claimed I had no ability I could use. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.:D
Quote from Axelrod »
Name:The Doctor (Star Trek: Voyager)(Town)
Rank: None
Race/Species/Type: Emergency Medical Hologram - Mark 1
Bio: Created by Dr. Lewis Zimmerman, the EMH Mark I is a computer program with a holographic interface. Programmed with every known medical and surgical technique, you can cure every known injury and disease. Your handy Mobile Emitter (a nifty piece of 29th Century technology) allows you to interact normally with your fellow crewmembers.
Ability: Emergency Doctor
Description: As an Emergency Medical Hologram, you don’t really even exist. At least not until you are activated. Once you are activated, you become a standard issue Doctor. You can pick a player to protect each night, not yourself, and unless something funny happens, that player will be safe from the first night-kill directed towards them. I will inform you when you have been activated.
In addition, as a condition of your activation, you MUST in your FIRST post the following morning, say the words: “Please State the Nature of the Medical Emergency.” (if you don’t—your ability will FAIL). Here’s the fun part: you don’t have to say the words together. The words have to be all in the same post, and in the correct order, but you can try to disguise it if you feel like it by throwing lots of other words in-between. It’s up to you.
As a further bonus, until you are activated, you are much harder to kill--though not completely immune. Most people looking for you will get told they can’t find you. On the down-side, before you are activated, you also can’t be Cop inspected. You win with the good guys.
Win Condition: Eliminate all the bad guys.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
RELAPSED MAFIA JUNKIE
W – 33, L – 19, Broke Games - 9
Calvin & Hobbs Mafia, Mafia MVP
X-Men Mafia Town MVP
Simpson's Mafia - best use of character
Mtgnews Mafia Mafia - Town Madman
Mythos Mafia: the Dunwich Massacre Town MVP
English Literature Mafia Town MVP
Best Role-Playing Sin City Mafia
Werewolf Mafia - Mafia MVP
Doctor Mafia - Mafia MVP
Mafia: Escape from the Cylons - Town MVP
Lost Mafia - Co SK Winner with Kops
Random Mafia 3 - Town MVP
No one did any kind of analysis along these lines until the last day. Xyre in particular, came out of the gates very strongly, fingering both Cyan and Chamber. I also thought Cyan looked extremely suspicious sitting there as the only remaining Original Series character (aside from Kirk, who couldn't really have been Mafia). I was impressed, especially since Xyre was such a late game replacement (thank you again, Xyre). But Xyre rapidly abandoned his own theories, soon declaring both of them among his most cleared, and fell back into lynching Passdog with everyone else.
Ah, this is my fault. I wrote off Cyan's play as simply his play style as a result of my experience in the game-that-must-not-be-named. Then I decided that the town must have seen enough on Day 1 to believe his safe-claim, I decided a mafia cop didn't make sense, and I abandoned him.
And once again, it's that time! Some tough choices this go around, lots of good mafia performances, and...less good town performances.
Mafia MVP: I think cases can be made for each of the surviving Mafia members. The fact that they were all considered less suspicious than two different townies at the end demonstrates this. But I'm going with Cyan for taking the most difficult path. He was the top poster in the game, which is always harder to pull off as Mafia (and incidentally, which I appreciated very much). He survived nearly getting lynched Day 1, no one ever inspected him, and by the end, he didn't have anyone (living) seriously looking at him. Great job!
Town MVP: Hmmmm. Tougher call. No one exactly stood out as a paragon of analysis and insight. Rafaelk was the best Day 1. He saw right through Bat. where others were much more hesitant. I give Rahl high marks day 1 also, and his Day-Vig. was key to taking Bat. down (along with CropCircles inspect). Rahl, of course, would have to be replaced later.
Later days were not kind to anyone. Raf. did vote for Hawkeye7 on Day 3. but this appeared to be primarily because he could tell Hawkeye was not being candid about something, which was true. Then Raf. tagged Chimp on Night 4. Finally, he sucked up a mafia kill after his ability was gone, which gave DM another chance at inspecting.
So my Town MVP award goes to Rafaelk. On balance, he did more good than harm (Passdog was his only major mistake), and he posted (always important for getting on my good side), and wasn't replaced. So nice work.
Honorable Mentions: to both chamber and Ged. Never underestimate the power of mafia turning on each other. I think the mafia were actually voters #2-4 on Cyan's original wagon. And, of course, chamber was then #2 on Bat's wagon.
LVP: Sadly, he was off base for much of the game, and considering the ultimate results of his "plan" (which did, however, get people talking, but which also led to Hawkeye7's fatal refusal to claim), I'm giving it to Puzzle. Sorry bro. I still love you.
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Also, in case I didn't say it earlier, thanks for creating such a great setup for us. This was my first non-newb mafia game ever, and the fact that it was so much fun and so well set-up, even from the beginning, is a large part of what made me the Mafia Junkie that I am today Kudos Axel, I'm very, very much looking forward to your next game. In a year
I had my possible scum list narrowed down to three: Xyre, Cyan and Ged. I had gotten plenty of good vibes from Cyan and Ged but there was just no one else (or so I thought) that possibly could be scum. I was actually starting to consider voting Cyan, but then I went AWOL for two days and the game ended.
chamber was barely a consideration - which is why it is scummy to lurk. That allowed him to hide way to easily.
I need to ask: beside defending bat Day 1, what made me so scummy in everyones eyes? Knowing might make me a better player.
Regarding the whole bat thing - while I still think some of what I had to say was relevant (thanks bat for backing that up) Raf was always right in his focus on the fact that bat didn't want to die again - if he wasn't lying then why would he be worried about dying? I certainly made my contribution to losing this game.
if he wasn't lying then why would he be worried about dying?
Because a lynch used on a townie who comes back to life isn't much better than "no lynch". Yes, it would serve to confirm the ability I was claiming (in this hypothetical case where I was a townie) but any lynch which doesn't hit scum is a waste of resource.
This was the problematic thing about Raf's attack - he was sure I was scum and his intuition was spot on, but a lot of the actual argument was terrible. As a consequence, both yourself and Machin Shin took a lot of credibility damage defending me.
This is why I picked Rahl over RafaelK for town MVP - Raf did more good than any other single townie, but he also inadvertantly did a lot of bad. The town were celebrating after day 1, whereas I was thinking the Mafia had a huge lead - with two one-shots used up (plus the gambler trap sprung) and a boatload of misinformation stacked against you, all you had was a lone dead Mafia.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
--
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
I had my possible scum list narrowed down to three: Xyre, Cyan and Ged. I had gotten plenty of good vibes from Cyan and Ged but there was just no one else (or so I thought) that possibly could be scum. I was actually starting to consider voting Cyan, but then I went AWOL for two days and the game ended.
chamber was barely a consideration - which is why it is scummy to lurk. That allowed him to hide way to easily.
I need to ask: beside defending bat Day 1, what made me so scummy in everyones eyes? Knowing might make me a better player.
Regarding the whole bat thing - while I still think some of what I had to say was relevant (thanks bat for backing that up) Raf was always right in his focus on the fact that bat didn't want to die again - if he wasn't lying then why would he be worried about dying? I certainly made my contribution to losing this game.
Thanks all, especially Axelrod. Great game.
Well, most of the points I made were inferences of scum tells. Be careful about fighting with other players (like you did with Rafk), because when he turns up dead, that doesn't make you look very good (but then again, you wouldn't have done that; it was just smart play on the part of the mafia). Review some of my points and try to iron out what I considered scum tells. If your play didn't feature those, you could be really good on this site.
Well, most of the points I made were inferences of scum tells. Be careful about fighting with other players (like you did with Rafk), because when he turns up dead, that doesn't make you look very good (but then again, you wouldn't have done that; it was just smart play on the part of the mafia). Review some of my points and try to iron out what I considered scum tells. If your play didn't feature those, you could be really good on this site.
I'm sorry, but the tells you refer to aren't apparent to me. You argued that I defended bateleur, you tried to discredit my argument that Raf was using ad hominems. What tells did I display that convinced you I was scum Any help to become better will be appreciated.
Honestly, from my point of view, the only problem I found with your play was your defense of Bat (which wasn't too bad...). Really, I think RafK just made a mistake and I barned on to it. Look back at the point where Raf was on you most. Only like 3 people ever voted for you.
You probably did something to catch RafK's attention, but being the noob that I am (I can use that excuse now!) I don't really know what it was.
Perhaps I'll ask in here as well, seeing that 4 of the 10 people who lynched me were the surviving scum. It appeared to me that RafK and Puzzle just caught on to my stupid play and you guys ran with it, grateful for a freebie lynch. Was that in fact the case?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Flesh so fine, so fine to tear, to gash the skin; skin to strip, to plait, so nice to plait the strips, so nice, so red the drops that fall; blood so red, so red, so sweet; sweet screams, pretty screams, singing screams, scream your song, sing your screams…” - The Eye of the World - Robert Jordan
Essentially, yes...that's basically how it went with every lynch, especially you and Hawkeye.
@Passdog: I think that RafK is just better at arguing than you(than most of us really), honestly, and fully used that to his advantage.
What I don't get is why everyone claims to have been suspicious of Ged, but, no one even looked at Chamber.
Reading the night actions, it's funny that Puzzle tried to switch Chamber and RafK the night that we blocked him(and Loran killed him). I speculated that he would likely switch RafK with somebody, since Raf had outed himself, and that there was a good chance it'd be Chamber, since Chamber seemed to be the most likely to be town(other than DYH, which wouldn't work for obvious reasons) in his eyes...and naturally, having control of the Cop investigations would have come in fairly handy on the last day. We almost didn't block him, but, we were worried that the ability switch would also transfer the Mafia Godfather clause, which obviously wasn't acceptable.
Axel, out of curiosity, if that switch had gone through, would RafK have gained the Mafia GF 'abilities' or just the 1-Shot Prevent a lynch ability?
I'm sorry, but the tells you refer to aren't apparent to me. You argued that I defended bateleur, you tried to discredit my argument that Raf was using ad hominems. What tells did I display that convinced you I was scum Any help to become better will be appreciated.
1) Be careful who you listen to. You may not see it, but I got the impression that you seriously believed Bat was mafia. In the end, I believe if you had changed your mind gracefully before his lynch, I wouldn't have pursued you.
2) Don't berate someone just to prove a point. This, of course, is something I didn't do, although my position as Jobie's replacement didn't help, but fighting with Rafk didn't look good after he died and was proven as town.
Other than that, here's a tip: never trust anyone. I think Cyan benefited from the trust of the town in general and you in specific.
Axel, out of curiosity, if that switch had gone through, would RafK have gained the Mafia GF 'abilities' or just the 1-Shot Prevent a lynch ability?
This was actually one of the toughest questions I had to answer when originally designing the set-up. Ultimately I decided that the switch would only affect the 1-shot lynch prevention ability, with the GF ability remaining with Janeway. I thought it would be somewhat unfair to the GF otherwise--that would have made three ways for the GF protection to get pierced, including one by a role that wasn't really designed to be a Cop (though Ged's ability was kind of scummy, and he would have pretty much been exposed if Puzzle switched him).
I still thought chamber would have been exposed if the switch had gone through, however. He would have had no real choice but to claim it, and then he would have had no excuse for still being alive the following Day, with all protective roles dead. I would have enjoyed seeing him talk his way out of it (not saying he couldn't have, but it would have been fun to watch).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Yes, I fear that may be a necessity
This game was a significant power-up from my last game (LoTR for those who don't know). In some ways it was an experiment to test my ability to balance things with lots of good abilities getting thrown around by both sides. I'm reasonably satisfied with the results. The Mafia was strong. Too strong? Possibly.
I started with a 14-5-1 type set up. I decided early on that these numbers favored the mafia, so I quickly threw 2 more bodies in on the side of the town. I wanted to reduce the number of vanilla roles (though not completely eliminate them, of course), so all but three town had some sort of useful ability (though several were 1-Shot.) I also decided on the Cop Headstart (which worried me a bit because the town had 2 full time Cops), but, again, I justified it because the Mafia Power level was high, and I didn't want the same thing to happen this game as in LoTR (three people die Night 1 and never get to play at all).
Having Bat have an extra life was a late-in-the-game development. Believe it or not, the role was originally going to be town. But in the interests of making things as unpredictable as possible, I decided to mix it up a bit. At one point, the mafia was going to have MatJoe's ability. Which doesn't benefit them at all, but sure makes his claim pretty. Ultimately, I felt Bat. was balanced by the numbers disparity (giving the town the extra bodies) as well as all the Investigation roles. And, of course, Puzzle's ability to take it away from him.
Chamber's ability to void one lynch is also good. Possibly broken, but I thought it was balanced by MatJoe's ability to skip the Night, as well as Puzzle's ability to take it away from him. In addition, I thought if Chamber came across as looking too "cleared" he would become a prime SK target. But instead, he flew under the radar so successfully that not only did he never have to claim his ability, he never even had to use it.
Quark was a real wild card role. Normally I hate random, but I couldn't resist in this case. As a player, I never want to be in a situation where the town has to "trust" that the Mod. is playing fair with "random" die rolls behind the scenes--so much potential for the Mod to fudge the results to "make the game more even/interesting," which is why I made it so the roll happened right out in the open. I like the way it came out.
The "safe" claims were another major factor. The game was designed (as before) so that a mass claim up front wouldn't break the game wide open. But I may have underestimated just how strong the claims were, or what the effect of perfect safe claims would be. Cyan's butt was saved day 1 solely on the strength of his claim, and it seemed like so many people mentally checked him off as "clear" then, that no one really felt like going back and re-visiting him, even after the info. came out about the Mirror Universe, and the Phasor. I mean, people mentioned that he wasn't "clear" anymore, but no one did anything about it. And, of course, no Cop ever took a look at him.
I scattered the Mafia/SK across the 4 Star Trek Series that I used. There was no obvious pattern. I also scattered them across the Ranks, but I did have a Mafia GF Captain (as one might have guessed), and there was a Mafia among the Doctors (two even!)
No one did any kind of analysis along these lines until the last day. Xyre in particular, came out of the gates very strongly, fingering both Cyan and Chamber. I also thought Cyan looked extremely suspicious sitting there as the only remaining Original Series character (aside from Kirk, who couldn't really have been Mafia). I was impressed, especially since Xyre was such a late game replacement (thank you again, Xyre). But Xyre rapidly abandoned his own theories, soon declaring both of them among his most cleared, and fell back into lynching Passdog with everyone else.
Ultimately, I think the perfect safe claims encouraged Townie laziness. That and all the replacing that occurred. Everyone assumed they weren't going to learn anything, so they didn't even ask. No one looked for any patterns, because they assumed I wouldn't have them.
Next time, I doubt I'll make claiming quite so easy for the mafia. Beware!
Trivia: The was a Borg Cult in the original version of the game. At the time I first designed it (July of last year) there hadn't been a game on Salvation with a Cult, so it seemed like an Original idea. 7 of 9 would have been the Borg Queen. But after LoTR, it seemed like every other game that ran had a Cult in it, right up to Armlx's Random 2 Mafia which actually had a Borg Queen Cult. So I decided it wasn't original anymore and dropped it. I don't like Cults anyway.
Currently, I am strongly advocating that at the start of large games, cops should be checking quieter players. We are all aware of the "active players become magnets" phenomenon when it comes to certain abilities, and I think we are more productive by checking quieter players. The reasoning is that active players are going to get involved in arguments anyway, so we'll have plenty of in-thread evidence to analyze, but the ones who don't talk are too easily escaping notice. More coverage = better.
As the game progesses, of course, it becomes more profitable to determine the alignments of the active players. But early on, I don't think it's as important. We also get this bonus: if the cop can clear multiple quiet townies, then we 1) make the mafia decide between killing cleared townies who don't talk and uncleared townies who do, and 2) we can narrow the field down to the active players, who we have much more evidence on.
It's clearly a late-game ability, only becoming worth using once Quark has reasonable targets for any 1-shot he might gain.
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
Also the night I died, right after I sent my action I knew it was a mistake to not roll. I had painted a huge target on me the least I could have done is saved myself or Arimnaes. Whats more I should have told chamber I was the night communicator. I thought about that because I trusted Arimnaes but not chamber and me and Arimnaes had come to the agreement that I was town. However I didn't implment that. My plan was if me or Arimnaes died we should lynch chamber but I kept that to myself. So if I had lived I think I might have gotten chamber due to him being in on the night communication.
Good job mafia though. It was a really good setup and a fun game.
"I know nothing of the law, only vengence" -Dom, U/G madness
I think that randomly killing MJM might have been one of our best plays. Like, the entirety of that conversation was me saying 'none of the active players seem like good NK targets, lets just kill a lurker..Matjoeman seems like a good choice'.
"I know nothing of the law, only vengence" -Dom, U/G madness
"I know nothing of the law, only vengence" -Dom, U/G madness
Which meant that either Cyan, or Chamber, or both, had to be mafia. I knew chamber was after day 3, because he outright lied about what went on during the night 0 communications, which ended up being solely between Kokusho and myself.
Day 1 was a comedy of errors from my point of view. I thought for sure RafaelK was going to get me lynched, and then all of a sudden Kokusho says "I have inside info he is town." Which shocked the pants off me, because even if he had me pegged as being Uhura, he had been given no assurances of me being town. I would have been one happy camper if I had been mafia, but, extremely fortunately, Kokusho was on the money. And then, of course, I knew he had to be town, because sticking his neck out for me would have made no sense as mafia. So basically... free mason pair, plz.
"I know nothing of the law, only vengence" -Dom, U/G madness
Bwuahahaha
Well at least the town gained 25 life....
"I know nothing of the law, only vengence" -Dom, U/G madness
Fade I knew before I did it that playing as I did would raise some eyebrows. I had banked on the town seeing the truth of what i was saying even though I was obviously with holding information. All the explainations I gave and all the possibilities I put forth were true. After the fact I'm sure that the value of what i was trying to do can be seen. The method did raise eyebrows but i did not believe that the town would be lead down the path to a lynch when it was completely not neccessary. What harm really would have been done by letting the play go through?
The harm was that I refused to simply surrender the third power role that was exposed and handed over to the mafia by the town demanding that players comply with a clearly misguilded demand for vital role information to be revealed. I stated this very clearly many times and many players, not just Puzzle only saw my refusal to comply, not that I was arguing against a clearly anti-town demand.
I had pegged Cyan from almost the very beginning. He was the common thread in almost all the truely suspicious activity I saw. I was completely wrong about Azreal though and I was pretty sure Fade was town.
Sorry Azreal.
This reminds me of my early reaction and interaction with another excellent player, Highroller. In the first few games I played with him in them we had the same reaction to our playing styles. Thankfully that has since changed.
If I could have gotten the chance to force Cyan to inspect me at night I wonder what result would have come back. No race?, hologram? I'm not sure. I was pretty sure that by forcing him to investigate me I would expose him as scum though. I was also sure that by revealing my being a hologram, someone with a multi setting phasor would have put two and two together and set it to the highest level which would kill me. Otherwise the mafia might have wasted a night kill trying to kill me and failing that risk exsposing themselves trying to get me lynched.
I did not lie about my role name. "the Doctor" is a title not a proper name for the hologram. as such I viewed him as, technically, not having a proper role name.
All that being said, a hearty congratulations to the mafia and to Cyan for an excellent job.
I am very sorry that my being so distracted by outside circumstances effected the game. I would like to, again, sincerely apologize and thank Axelrod for his graciousness and to everyone else in the game.
Calvin & Hobbs Mafia, Mafia MVP
X-Men Mafia Town MVP
Simpson's Mafia - best use of character
Mtgnews Mafia Mafia - Town Madman
Mythos Mafia: the Dunwich Massacre Town MVP
English Literature Mafia Town MVP
Best Role-Playing Sin City Mafia
Werewolf Mafia - Mafia MVP
Doctor Mafia - Mafia MVP
Mafia: Escape from the Cylons - Town MVP
Lost Mafia - Co SK Winner with Kops
Random Mafia 3 - Town MVP
I did claim my role.
I was vanilla. this is again not a lie on my part. It is hair splitting I will admit but not a lie. I was the back up doctor. I had no ability until the real doctor was killed. Until then I was an almost un-night killable, possibly very hard to racially investigate hologram.
If I'm not mistaken the highest setting listed forthe phasor listed hologram. Also Axelrod indicated that I was extremely hard to kill at night but not completely immune. I also wanted to try to force you to use your ability and failing that draw as much attention to you as possible.
Calvin & Hobbs Mafia, Mafia MVP
X-Men Mafia Town MVP
Simpson's Mafia - best use of character
Mtgnews Mafia Mafia - Town Madman
Mythos Mafia: the Dunwich Massacre Town MVP
English Literature Mafia Town MVP
Best Role-Playing Sin City Mafia
Werewolf Mafia - Mafia MVP
Doctor Mafia - Mafia MVP
Mafia: Escape from the Cylons - Town MVP
Lost Mafia - Co SK Winner with Kops
Random Mafia 3 - Town MVP
Calvin & Hobbs Mafia, Mafia MVP
X-Men Mafia Town MVP
Simpson's Mafia - best use of character
Mtgnews Mafia Mafia - Town Madman
Mythos Mafia: the Dunwich Massacre Town MVP
English Literature Mafia Town MVP
Best Role-Playing Sin City Mafia
Werewolf Mafia - Mafia MVP
Doctor Mafia - Mafia MVP
Mafia: Escape from the Cylons - Town MVP
Lost Mafia - Co SK Winner with Kops
Random Mafia 3 - Town MVP
Ah, this is my fault. I wrote off Cyan's play as simply his play style as a result of my experience in the game-that-must-not-be-named. Then I decided that the town must have seen enough on Day 1 to believe his safe-claim, I decided a mafia cop didn't make sense, and I abandoned him.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
And once again, it's that time! Some tough choices this go around, lots of good mafia performances, and...less good town performances.
Mafia MVP: I think cases can be made for each of the surviving Mafia members. The fact that they were all considered less suspicious than two different townies at the end demonstrates this. But I'm going with Cyan for taking the most difficult path. He was the top poster in the game, which is always harder to pull off as Mafia (and incidentally, which I appreciated very much). He survived nearly getting lynched Day 1, no one ever inspected him, and by the end, he didn't have anyone (living) seriously looking at him. Great job!
Town MVP: Hmmmm. Tougher call. No one exactly stood out as a paragon of analysis and insight. Rafaelk was the best Day 1. He saw right through Bat. where others were much more hesitant. I give Rahl high marks day 1 also, and his Day-Vig. was key to taking Bat. down (along with CropCircles inspect). Rahl, of course, would have to be replaced later.
Later days were not kind to anyone. Raf. did vote for Hawkeye7 on Day 3. but this appeared to be primarily because he could tell Hawkeye was not being candid about something, which was true. Then Raf. tagged Chimp on Night 4. Finally, he sucked up a mafia kill after his ability was gone, which gave DM another chance at inspecting.
So my Town MVP award goes to Rafaelk. On balance, he did more good than harm (Passdog was his only major mistake), and he posted (always important for getting on my good side), and wasn't replaced. So nice work.
Honorable Mentions: to both chamber and Ged. Never underestimate the power of mafia turning on each other. I think the mafia were actually voters #2-4 on Cyan's original wagon. And, of course, chamber was then #2 on Bat's wagon.
LVP: Sadly, he was off base for much of the game, and considering the ultimate results of his "plan" (which did, however, get people talking, but which also led to Hawkeye7's fatal refusal to claim), I'm giving it to Puzzle. Sorry bro. I still love you.
Also, in case I didn't say it earlier, thanks for creating such a great setup for us. This was my first non-newb mafia game ever, and the fact that it was so much fun and so well set-up, even from the beginning, is a large part of what made me the Mafia Junkie that I am today Kudos Axel, I'm very, very much looking forward to your next game. In a year
chamber was barely a consideration - which is why it is scummy to lurk. That allowed him to hide way to easily.
I need to ask: beside defending bat Day 1, what made me so scummy in everyones eyes? Knowing might make me a better player.
Regarding the whole bat thing - while I still think some of what I had to say was relevant (thanks bat for backing that up) Raf was always right in his focus on the fact that bat didn't want to die again - if he wasn't lying then why would he be worried about dying? I certainly made my contribution to losing this game.
Thanks all, especially Axelrod. Great game.
Because a lynch used on a townie who comes back to life isn't much better than "no lynch". Yes, it would serve to confirm the ability I was claiming (in this hypothetical case where I was a townie) but any lynch which doesn't hit scum is a waste of resource.
This was the problematic thing about Raf's attack - he was sure I was scum and his intuition was spot on, but a lot of the actual argument was terrible. As a consequence, both yourself and Machin Shin took a lot of credibility damage defending me.
This is why I picked Rahl over RafaelK for town MVP - Raf did more good than any other single townie, but he also inadvertantly did a lot of bad. The town were celebrating after day 1, whereas I was thinking the Mafia had a huge lead - with two one-shots used up (plus the gambler trap sprung) and a boatload of misinformation stacked against you, all you had was a lone dead Mafia.
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
Well, most of the points I made were inferences of scum tells. Be careful about fighting with other players (like you did with Rafk), because when he turns up dead, that doesn't make you look very good (but then again, you wouldn't have done that; it was just smart play on the part of the mafia). Review some of my points and try to iron out what I considered scum tells. If your play didn't feature those, you could be really good on this site.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
I'm sorry, but the tells you refer to aren't apparent to me. You argued that I defended bateleur, you tried to discredit my argument that Raf was using ad hominems. What tells did I display that convinced you I was scum Any help to become better will be appreciated.
You probably did something to catch RafK's attention, but being the noob that I am (I can use that excuse now!) I don't really know what it was.
Really, other than Cyan, we all basically lurked and let the town tear itself appart. The real lessons from this game should be found in that point.
@Passdog: I think that RafK is just better at arguing than you(than most of us really), honestly, and fully used that to his advantage.
What I don't get is why everyone claims to have been suspicious of Ged, but, no one even looked at Chamber.
Reading the night actions, it's funny that Puzzle tried to switch Chamber and RafK the night that we blocked him(and Loran killed him). I speculated that he would likely switch RafK with somebody, since Raf had outed himself, and that there was a good chance it'd be Chamber, since Chamber seemed to be the most likely to be town(other than DYH, which wouldn't work for obvious reasons) in his eyes...and naturally, having control of the Cop investigations would have come in fairly handy on the last day. We almost didn't block him, but, we were worried that the ability switch would also transfer the Mafia Godfather clause, which obviously wasn't acceptable.
Axel, out of curiosity, if that switch had gone through, would RafK have gained the Mafia GF 'abilities' or just the 1-Shot Prevent a lynch ability?
1) Be careful who you listen to. You may not see it, but I got the impression that you seriously believed Bat was mafia. In the end, I believe if you had changed your mind gracefully before his lynch, I wouldn't have pursued you.
2) Don't berate someone just to prove a point. This, of course, is something I didn't do, although my position as Jobie's replacement didn't help, but fighting with Rafk didn't look good after he died and was proven as town.
Other than that, here's a tip: never trust anyone. I think Cyan benefited from the trust of the town in general and you in specific.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
This was actually one of the toughest questions I had to answer when originally designing the set-up. Ultimately I decided that the switch would only affect the 1-shot lynch prevention ability, with the GF ability remaining with Janeway. I thought it would be somewhat unfair to the GF otherwise--that would have made three ways for the GF protection to get pierced, including one by a role that wasn't really designed to be a Cop (though Ged's ability was kind of scummy, and he would have pretty much been exposed if Puzzle switched him).
I still thought chamber would have been exposed if the switch had gone through, however. He would have had no real choice but to claim it, and then he would have had no excuse for still being alive the following Day, with all protective roles dead. I would have enjoyed seeing him talk his way out of it (not saying he couldn't have, but it would have been fun to watch).