I still think that third vote is an overrated strategy. A smart scum won't put a third vote on anybody, for just that reason. So then should we assume that everybody not putting on a third vote is scum? I don't think so.
Welcome to the wonderful world of WIFOM logic. Enjoy your stay.
The fact that 2/3 of the people you lynched for that was scum probably has a very good explanation. Were those the only people in that game that had put the third vote on somebody? I doubt it. Third vote may have given them a bit of attention, but I'm sure you didn't lynch them just for that. I'm sure there were other people in that game who had third voted and weren't scum, unless there was only one bandwagon.
No, you're right, it wasn't just the fact that they put the third vote on. It was the fact that when we pressured them for that behavior they cracked.
It seems to me like you're trying quickly to draw attention away from yourself.
Unvote, UnFOS, FOS Feuerdrache.
True, but what else is there to do when everybody starts crying scum for basically very weak reasoning? I'm drawing attention away from myself because I know it's in the wrong place. I'm trying to out scum behavior and no one's listening - at least not yet.
And this bandwagon (Well, not really a bandwagon, but a series of votes) on Kops has to stop now. There isn't a good reason for it at all.
Honestly, I don't know what the Hell you're talking about. I unvoted already, and I don't believe anyone else has voted for him. Annorax put a BFFOS on him, but that's it.
And I asked via PM already, but can we please get a damn vote count?
Honestly, I don't know what the Hell you're talking about. I unvoted already, and I don't believe anyone else has voted for him. Annorax put a BFFOS on him, but that's it.
actually, SG is still joke voting me and Twomz is still voting me (although i'm still not sure if his is a joke or not)
unfos all
I never claimed it was, HC did... although i did have somewhat of a bandwagon at one point, it's somewhat dissolved now
I'm starting to get a little conflicted over Feuerdache, not sure if he's scum anymore.. unvotefos Feuerdache but if CP (or anyone else for that matter) gives me a good reason to revote, I won't hesitate
unfos all
I never claimed it was, HC did... although i did have somewhat of a bandwagon at one point, it's somewhat dissolved now
Well, that's who I was speaking to anyway.
I'm starting to get a little conflicted over Feuerdache, not sure if he's scum anymore.. but if CP (or anyone else for that matter) gives me a good reason to revote, I won't hesitate
Why don't you just try to figure out for yourself if I'm scum or not instead of allowing others to dominate where your vote goes?
Welcome to the wonderful world of WIFOM logic. Enjoy your stay.
Umm... Yeah, that's my point. It is WIFOM logic to assume that all who third vote (or all that don't) are scum. Thus that shouldn't be used to determine who is scum. Are you saying that's true?
Umm... Yeah, that's my point. It is WIFOM logic to assume that all who third vote (or all that don't) are scum. Thus that shouldn't be used to determine who is scum. Are you saying that's true?
Oi.
No, I'm not saying that at all.
WIFOM things are hard to use to pinpoint scum. But then again, once a scum tell becomes public, it is automatically WIFOM, because scum wouldn't normally do it anymore if they knew it was a tell. And then scum realize that and do it anyway, trying to pass it off as "just WIFOM logic that'll get us nowhere." Discounting the WIFOM part, scum will do it anyway as a matter of psychology.
The "Third-Vote" Tell is a proven method for catching scum. Putting pressure on someone because of it is a good way to go about playing the game.
If you're scared to put pressure on someone because the only things you have against them are WIFOM, you'll never lynch scum very effectively.
And by the way, I just realized that Annorax is being incredibly suspicious, not contributing much of anything to the game and in general making sloppy posts that do a poor job of conveying his intent. I've known 'Rax for a long enough time to know he doesn't normally post like this. So for now, IGMEOY.
True, but what else is there to do when everybody starts crying scum for basically very weak reasoning? I'm drawing attention away from myself because I know it's in the wrong place. I'm trying to out scum behavior and no one's listening - at least not yet.
Okay, this is something I want to address really quickly.
This would be a reasonable defense if you could make a reasonable case against someone else. This early in the game, it's pretty much a given that there won't be a strong case against anybody. The case against you is certainly better than anything alse that's been presented so far, however, so it isn't fair to accuse people of poor logic at this stage.
You have two perfectly reasonable strategies for getting a bandwagon off of you, and neither of them include railing at people about how unfair it is that you're being bandwagoned when you didn't dooooo anything. Either make a genuine case against someone, or else demonstrate points that suggest your innocence.
As I've said at least twice already, we don't have have, and probably are not going to get, proof of scum any time today. That means that in order to move forward, we must not fear the bandwagon. Vote stays.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
I'm not sure if I think it was a wise thing to come out with the information in the first place, but I can't see any objection for revealing the name now.
I'd say go ahead with the information you got, but leave your own role name to yourself for the time being.
First post, he makes no clear assertion whether or not he thinks it's a good idea to reveal. That's not too terribly different from my own - the difference is, the fingers were pointed at me and not CF.
Quote from Crippled_Fist »
Reed = AS anyway. I think Reed was his username in 'News, but I'm not sure since I never posted/lurked there.
Second post, nothing particularly relevant. Just clearing up some confusion.
Quote from Crippled_Fist »
Feuer, you really do make yourself a tempting target for Day 1.
In your first post regarding the case against you, you threw two FoSes and one vote around, one FoS and the vote basically being OMGUS reactions. And the FoS definitely looks like you're diverting attention from yourself - while at the same time you said your FoS on cp was for diverting attention from AS.
Also, I'm not sure if I should even regard it scummy or just bad play, but your argument about why the mafia would like to counter claim someone who claimed the czar is just false. No mafioso would ever like to put themselves in a one-for-one situation, unless they were in a dire trouble themselves which is highly unlikely in a counter claiming situation.
Anyway, there's definitely enough reason for me to Vote Feuerdrache.
Third post, he agrees with the bandwagon and votes me, citing that he agrees with others' reasoning. He also tries to condescend me into learning mafia techniques, which I refute in a later post, referencing my own post (#91).
Quote from Crippled_Fist »
Fixed.
I'm not really voting for him because of his accused lurking. I see 3 main reasons, first one kops explained, second one I explained above, and the third one is the counter claiming craplogic. Admittedly, the last one could be just bad play, but for a Day 1 vote I'm fairly happy with my target.
I'm always ready to hear better suggestions, if you have any.
I think the reason for cp not to reveal the other one was to hear everyone's opinion about Feuer first. And for what I recall not everyone has commented on the situation yet.
Ultimately it's cp's decision though.
Fourth post. It's a good thing you aren't voting for me for inactivity, Fist, because you've got a Hell of a lot more inactivity than me. You state a theory as to why CP didn't reveal his reasoning against me, then say it's up to him. I forget the part of mafia where you blindly follow others' finger pointing without knowing why they're doing it.
Quote from Crippled_Fist »
I see extensive OMGUS voting and/or FoSing a sign of nervousity, and mafiosi generally have more reason to be nervous than townies. Not maybe the most damning behaviour, as your experience shows, but a scum tell nevertheless.
Actually, I meant this.As I explained, the bad play, being the OMGUS vote and FoS, here seemed like a sign of nervousity to me.
On top of that, the two FoSes in this case are scummy on their own, as one does look like a OMGUS FoS, weakly covered with a reason he himself is guilty of with the other FoS in the same post.
How I read it anyway, Feuer's view of counter claiming involves a major probability of a mafioso counter claiming the real czar which, frankly, doesn't make any sense.
Fifth (and final) post. Nervousity? Nervousness, you mean? Of course I'm nervous, I've got four votes on me for weak reasoning. I've never had a bandwagon leveled at me before. I'm doing my best, believe me.
And I don't understand why OMGUS FoSing is a scum tell - it's an FoS, something that comes with little significance other than letting people know you're suspicious of them.
And the last bit is actually completely worthless in terms of determining scum.
You want me to make a case against the major reasoning against me? Sure.
RE: Not supporting Charlie's reveal on faulty grounds.
Okay, so what? Here's the thing about this that's wrong: I retracted the statement very quickly, realizing one-for-one trades are always good for the town. Regardless, my position against the info reveal for the reasons I gave was not scummy at all. I'm telling you, it was a knee-jerk reaction, taking the role at face value - using the info to confirm a townie when the need arose. Since then, I have changed my mind without provocation to do so. Doesn't that count for something?
RE: Reaction to bandwagon pressure showing nervousness.
I've never been this far under the microscope before and it's doing a lot to me psychologically. I'm simultaneously frightened, anxious and pissed off. I'm scared because I don't want to die and leave the town worse off. I'm anxious because that's about to happen. I'm pissed off because a lot of the case against me is bull, as I hope I've proven here.
RE: Inactivity as a scum tell.
Since that was even mentioned, my activity has picked up. It's complete bullcrap now, whereas Crippled_Fist still has relatively low activity.
And by the way, I just realized that Annorax is being incredibly suspicious, not contributing much of anything to the game and in general making sloppy posts that do a poor job of conveying his intent. I've known 'Rax for a long enough time to know he doesn't normally post like this. So for now, IGMEOY.
This is because I haven't played mafia in so long that I'm beginning to think I've forgotten what I'm doing. This is also because I've just gotten into the most screwed up game possible on another site, and I've been trying to figure out both how to win that game and how to interpret your actions thus far. I'm 100% certain that either you or kops is scum, but I'm not sure which.
Unvote all. Big f'in FOS: Feuerdrache. Big f'in FOS: kops.
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Hey, i'm here... i have been kind of lurking. I don't really have anything to say besides vote stands.
If it gets to the point where we stop WIFOMing and pointing fingers, and actually do something productive like bandwagon, or discuss important issues, then i'll post more. (sorry if this post is taken as scummy). As with most games, i just want to get past Day 1, so we can have a better chance of catching scum. While finger pointing is great to determine if someone was trying to distance themself from a scumbuddy later on... i've never actually found it useful on Day 1.
I'm 100% certain that either you or kops is scum, but I'm not sure which.
i.e. you're scum, or have some other information role that told you one of the two of us is scum, or you're lieing.... (and if you really are 100% sure... like as in mod-confirmed, then Feuer is the scum =P)
whichever it is fos annorax (even if it is the second case, then the fos is for dropping obvious hints)
I'm starting to think Feuer is town, and CP hasn't given his second reason yet... Twomz hasn't unvoted me nor has he presented a reason for voting me... Annorax is starting to seem more and more suspicious in my mind
I'm very very close to voting annorax, but I'll hear out a defense from him first
Trying to set up a double lynch on Day 1 is a very strong scum tell. (And before you say WIFOM, I'll just say that if you can provide some kind of solid reasoning for saying, as town, that one of the two is definitely scum, I'll change my mind. But like kops says, that would mean you have some kind of outside info.)
As for the case against Feuer, I'm not just letting it go, but he's defended himself satisfactorily for the moment, to me.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
I see two leads right now. Feuer (I like his explanation, but I'm still a little suspicious of him) and Annorax.
Both are basically accused of general scummy actions. I think both have some truth behind them. I don't have time right now, but later today or tomorrow I'll try to decide which of them I'll vote. For now FOS Annorax for above reasons.
i.e. you're scum, or have some other information role that told you one of the two of us is scum, or you're lieing.... (and if you really are 100% sure... like as in mod-confirmed, then Feuer is the scum =P)
whichever it is fos annorax (even if it is the second case, then the fos is for dropping obvious hints)
I'm starting to think Feuer is town, and CP hasn't given his second reason yet... Twomz hasn't unvoted me nor has he presented a reason for voting me... Annorax is starting to seem more and more suspicious in my mind
I'm very very close to voting annorax, but I'll hear out a defense from him first
I'm the czar. The czar is town. Anastasia is in the game. I have no other mod-confirmed information or abilities. I was relying on my brilliant skills of deduction to FoS kops again. One or both of you is scum. I am not.
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I'm the czar. The czar is town. Anastasia is in the game. I have no other mod-confirmed information or abilities. I was relying on my brilliant skills of deduction to FoS kops again. One or both of you is scum. I am not.
Huh. Makes sense, flavor-wise. I would have thought two roles that knew of the other's existance would be masons, but that's fine.
If Charlie isn't Anastasia, then the mod's really trying to get on our nerves.
Right then, unless there is a counterclaim Annorax is cleared. I guess this spares me the trouble of deciding who to put my vote on.
UnFOS All, Vote Feuerdrache because, as previously explained, you are the current scummiest (Though as a second candidate I guess we should look into C_F).
First off, Tuatha and SG really need to post some more... I don't think we've heard from either of them since their back-and-forth w/ each other quite a while back
Secondly, like I said before, I'm not so sure about Feuerdache anymore, but I'm going to read over his posts again since Annorax appears to be cleared now, and I'm not sure who else to look at (as has been said, I do agree that C_F is a possibility)
Oh, and in case anybody didn't get it (I'm sure most of the scum did, and if even one does they all know) I am Anatasia. I wouldn't have come out this early, but it seems everybody knows it anyway.
Okay, I'm satisfied with that outcome, actually. Barring counterclaims (and if you can, you should counterclaim at this point), both of them can be considered cleared. Unvote.
Annorax, explain, please, why you are so convinced that one of those two is scum. Even if you are a confirmed townie, you can't just say something like that without some evidence.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
98% so. Still I hate it when people throw around Day 1 cleared. That is hard to do. Although you are both looking very good. Annorax's play made me a little uneasy but he seems alright now.
At the moment we have little to go on. kops is seems to be randomly following people but it may just be his style. We all do it sometimes.
(Which reminds me: Unvote)
Feuerdrache doesn't look great but did a good job with responces so I will just keep an eye on him for now.
Abso does not seem to be contributing much, just random one sentences here and there. Although I can't say I have been that active myself so there is not too much of a case there. Just, you know, make longer posts.
Thats all I have for now. I will attempt to be more active.
Okay, I'm satisfied with that outcome, actually. Barring counterclaims (and if you can, you should counterclaim at this point), both of them can be considered cleared. Unvote.
Annorax, explain, please, why you are so convinced that one of those two is scum. Even if you are a confirmed townie, you can't just say something like that without some evidence.
Holding my vote for the moment.
They've both done and said some things in ways that have made me suspect either ulterior motives or stupidity. My current thoughts are that one is scum and the other is just stupid, but I'm torn as to which one might be which.
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They've both done and said some things in ways that have made me suspect either ulterior motives or stupidity. My current thoughts are that one is scum and the other is just stupid, but I'm torn as to which one might be which.
Bet on stupidity. Unless they're siblings, which seem unlikely in a mini.
My best guess is either one of them's lying about his role, or they're both cleared, or something's up, because it seems like a useless drawback for a scum, who wouldn't reveal it anyway.
I'm sorry I'm so inactive. I've got school and such, and I'm only allowed online one hour a day in any case.
Anyway, has everyone posted(and refrained from counterclaiming) since Annorax and HC claimed?
Bet on stupidity. Unless they're siblings, which seem unlikely in a mini.
My best guess is either one of them's lying about his role, or they're both cleared, or something's up, because it seems like a useless drawback for a scum, who wouldn't reveal it anyway.
ummm, what on earth are you talking about
neither of us have claimed yet (I think you're getting confused, I suggest a reread)
That typo feud was calling me out about was indeed a typo.
I'm neither anastasia or the czar. However, is Annorax certain anastasia is town? It seems pretty certain, but I want to know if its for sure.
He never expressed certainty, yet the mere fact that HC came out all of a sudden and confirmed Annorax like that seems to have cleared both.
An unlikely scenario would be some grand mafia ploy to confirm both of them. It just seems too risky to be likely, so I really think HC and Annorax are confirmed town.
[FONT=Verdana]How I read it, our original opinions on the matter were actually differing. You suggested HC witholding the information until someone was in danger, I supported the revealing of the info right away. I only questioned if it was wise to tell us such information existed in the first place. [/FONT]
My mistake, then. It's still not a clear assertion.
[FONT=Verdana]I didn't state any theory of my own, I tried to cite what he'd explained us from the top of my head. And by already quoting my third post, you can see I wasn't just blindly following cp, I'd done my own research as well. Sure, I maybe wouldn't have put my eye on you without cp, but that's just how the game of mafia works.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]Makes me wonder, why did you state its reason to be "diverting attention" instead of "I know I'm town, and as such you would have a good reason to pursue me if you were scum"? And on top of that, throwing multiple FoSes and a vote really made it look like you were diverting attention yourself.[/FONT]
Because I don't play semantics games. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.
And again, FoS'ing shouldn't be a heavy indicator of scummy behavior. I know I'm town, so it's natural for me to be suspicious of the accusers when I feel the reasoning behind the pointed fingers is unjust.
[FONT=Verdana]Well, there's at least one point we have to disagree. But I can buy the explanation about your nervousity.[/FONT]
Nervousness. * Feuerdrache twitches.
[FONT=Verdana]I think it's nice how you manage to mention me every single time you speak about your activity. Especially when there are people who have been more inactive than both of us.
That's just a matter of the nature of my post - I was making a case against you in an attempt to at least partially clear myself. I was merely comparing us in a vacuum. There's plenty of inactivity in this game besides us, and I recognize that just fine.
Overall, especially as Annorax turned out to be the czar, I think Feuer is still our best lead. His defence isn't bad but it doesn't really convince me either, and for a Day 1 case I think this isn't that bad.
God damn it, why?
This is my problem with the bandwagon railing against me - a lot of the posts that come after decent defenses by me contain things like "overall I'm pretty confident in my vote" or "Feuer's still the best chance we've got of catching scum."[/font]
He never expressed certainty, yet the mere fact that HC came out all of a sudden and confirmed Annorax like that seems to have cleared both.
An unlikely scenario would be some grand mafia ploy to confirm both of them. It just seems too risky to be likely, so I really think HC and Annorax are confirmed town.
I'm not certain Anastasia is town. I suspect it, the lyrics seem to support it, but I don't have in-game information that tells me Anastasia is absolutely, certainly town.
Quote from Feuerdrache »
Post
If Feuerdrache is scum, he's certainly well-bluffed scum. I think we should let this one rest and come back to him later if more evidence of scumminess surfaces.
Vote: Kops because he seems scummy and this game is slow as hell.
Odd. Why would Annorax not know that HC is innocent, if they know each other's names, and HC knows that Annorax is innocent? I'd be interested to hear HC's take on this.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
As much as I would love to announce that we've bagged a scum in Anastasia, I can't. There is no evidence that Anastasia is not town. She's the daughter of the freaking Czar, anyway. The only discrepancy I could possibly suggest is the mystery surrounding her possible survival, and I don't think that's enough to point any fingers.
Hmm... I thought you said earlier that you knew Anatasia was cleared. Still, I am, but I guess there is now nothing to make me cleared in everybody's minds. I don't really understand the lyrics all that much, in fact.
Could somebody post a general explanation of the song's lyrics? It was all Greek to me.
And Feuerdrache does seem to be acting very townie now (as in, not scummy) so I'll downgrade it to a Unvote, FOS Feuerdrache
Not like what roles are in the game, or which are likely to be town, but just what is happening. For example, somebody said something about Anatasia's demise or something, and I want to know what the lyrics are talking about. It is always a good idea to evaluate things myself instead of letting other people do it for me, and to do that I need at least a brief explanation.
Not like what roles are in the game, or which are likely to be town, but just what is happening. For example, somebody said something about Anatasia's demise or something, and I want to know what the lyrics are talking about. It is always a good idea to evaluate things myself instead of letting other people do it for me, and to do that I need at least a brief explanation.
Anybody?
Wikipedia works pretty well, but if you really need me to...
As for Anastasia and the czar specifically, the song is referring to the Russian royal family that was murdered in the cellar of a mansion. Anastasia was rumored to have lived, and two women claimed to be her (as it turned out, they weren't). There's a Disney movie called Anastasia based on the legend and the false-claimers.
And coming to think of it, it's pretty ironic that there was a false-claim of the real-world "role" of Anastasia. Though technically it's nothing scummy. Just coincidental that a Mafia ploy was used in the real world.
I could go more in-depth because I know a lot about history and I understood the references in the song. By the way, I love the reference to Julius Caesar, Charlie. ^-^ Regardless, I won't do it without permission from the town.
Wikipedia works pretty well, but if you really need me to...
As for Anastasia and the czar specifically, the song is referring to the Russian royal family that was murdered in the cellar of a mansion. Anastasia was rumored to have lived, and two women claimed to be her (as it turned out, they weren't). There's a Disney movie called Anastasia based on the legend and the false-claimers.
And coming to think of it, it's pretty ironic that there was a false-claim of the real-world "role" of Anastasia. Though technically it's nothing scummy. Just coincidental that a Mafia ploy was used in the real world.
I could go more in-depth because I know a lot about history and I understood the references in the song. By the way, I love the reference to Julius Caesar, Charlie. ^-^ Regardless, I won't do it without permission from the town.
Right. Think the Bolshevik revolution. Or wiki it.
That wouldn't make any sense at all, for two reasons.
1) If I was supposed to be one of the people false-claiming Anatasia and not Anatasia herself, I wouldn't know anything about the Czar.
2) Although that happened in real life, the song never referred to that. It only spoke about killing Anatasia, I believe.
Also, I find it weird that you make that assumption. I mean, my reaction would probably be very different (not as big) if you said something like "His claim is shaky" or something, but I don't like how you immediately assumed that I am scum based on my flavor.
Twomz is seeming very, very scummy to me in general now, but that could just be his playstyle. In one of his first few posts, he said that we should do an immediate mass-claim, and now you assume that I'm scum based on flavor. That's twice that you take immediate action on the scum's side.
Looking back at this post, it seems very overdefensive, but I'll just post it anyway because it was honestly what I thought when I saw that.
That would be an extremely strange role for a mafioso to have.
Let's look at the possibilities:
1) Both are town, and both are telling the truth. This is wierd because their abilities are not symmetrical. However, there is a slight flavor justification in that the czar would be unable to verify the "real" Anastasia.
2) HC is town and Annorax is mafia. This is fairly ridiculous, because it would be the mod screwing with us in a huge way.
3) HC is mafia and Annorax is town. This is a distinct possibility. It explains the non-symmetrical roles and it has flavor justification in that "Anastasia" is just a liar.
4) Both are scum. This is also a possibility, but unlikely for a couple reasons. First, why would Annorax willingly draw so much attention to two mafia members when the risk is so high, and second, why would he claim a non-symmetrical ability?
In any case, I'm willing to accept Annorax as town. I'm still on the fence about HC. I wonder who else thinks he's worthy of pressure? We already know his role and name, so I'm not sure what we're likely to get, but it's possible we might be able to break a mafia gambit.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Feuer... we DON'T want a cop to investigate a miller. That's a bad idea. It gives the mafia a free day, because we'll have to kill him on the assumption that he's mafia and is just claiming miller. Besides, miller roles are usually told that they're vanilla townie.
And yes, my playstyle is usually extremely scummy. I say what's on my mind at the time, no matter what the conciquences to myself. All of my actions are bent on finding the scum, at any costs. I don't care if i get lynched along the way as long as we kill the scum.
Welcome to the wonderful world of WIFOM logic. Enjoy your stay.
No, you're right, it wasn't just the fact that they put the third vote on. It was the fact that when we pressured them for that behavior they cracked.
True, but what else is there to do when everybody starts crying scum for basically very weak reasoning? I'm drawing attention away from myself because I know it's in the wrong place. I'm trying to out scum behavior and no one's listening - at least not yet.
Honestly, I don't know what the Hell you're talking about. I unvoted already, and I don't believe anyone else has voted for him. Annorax put a BFFOS on him, but that's it.
And I asked via PM already, but can we please get a damn vote count?
actually, SG is still joke voting me and Twomz is still voting me (although i'm still not sure if his is a joke or not)
Could just be the fact that neither has posted in awhile.
Regardless, that's hardly a bandwagon.
I never claimed it was, HC did... although i did have somewhat of a bandwagon at one point, it's somewhat dissolved now
I'm starting to get a little conflicted over Feuerdache, not sure if he's scum anymore.. unvote fos Feuerdache but if CP (or anyone else for that matter) gives me a good reason to revote, I won't hesitate
(2) kops: SorryGuy, twomz
(1) carrion pigeons: aurorasparrow
(3) feuerdrache: carrion pigeons, Crippled Fist, annorax
(1) Crippled Fist: feuerdrache
With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch.
If there's any mistakes in the vote count, please let me know as soon as possible.
Edited since kops Sarnath'd the votecount.
Well, that's who I was speaking to anyway.
Why don't you just try to figure out for yourself if I'm scum or not instead of allowing others to dominate where your vote goes?
Umm... Yeah, that's my point. It is WIFOM logic to assume that all who third vote (or all that don't) are scum. Thus that shouldn't be used to determine who is scum. Are you saying that's true?
Oi.
No, I'm not saying that at all.
WIFOM things are hard to use to pinpoint scum. But then again, once a scum tell becomes public, it is automatically WIFOM, because scum wouldn't normally do it anymore if they knew it was a tell. And then scum realize that and do it anyway, trying to pass it off as "just WIFOM logic that'll get us nowhere." Discounting the WIFOM part, scum will do it anyway as a matter of psychology.
The "Third-Vote" Tell is a proven method for catching scum. Putting pressure on someone because of it is a good way to go about playing the game.
If you're scared to put pressure on someone because the only things you have against them are WIFOM, you'll never lynch scum very effectively.
And by the way, I just realized that Annorax is being incredibly suspicious, not contributing much of anything to the game and in general making sloppy posts that do a poor job of conveying his intent. I've known 'Rax for a long enough time to know he doesn't normally post like this. So for now, IGMEOY.
Okay, this is something I want to address really quickly.
This would be a reasonable defense if you could make a reasonable case against someone else. This early in the game, it's pretty much a given that there won't be a strong case against anybody. The case against you is certainly better than anything alse that's been presented so far, however, so it isn't fair to accuse people of poor logic at this stage.
You have two perfectly reasonable strategies for getting a bandwagon off of you, and neither of them include railing at people about how unfair it is that you're being bandwagoned when you didn't dooooo anything. Either make a genuine case against someone, or else demonstrate points that suggest your innocence.
As I've said at least twice already, we don't have have, and probably are not going to get, proof of scum any time today. That means that in order to move forward, we must not fear the bandwagon. Vote stays.
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First post, he makes no clear assertion whether or not he thinks it's a good idea to reveal. That's not too terribly different from my own - the difference is, the fingers were pointed at me and not CF.
Second post, nothing particularly relevant. Just clearing up some confusion.
Third post, he agrees with the bandwagon and votes me, citing that he agrees with others' reasoning. He also tries to condescend me into learning mafia techniques, which I refute in a later post, referencing my own post (#91).
Fourth post. It's a good thing you aren't voting for me for inactivity, Fist, because you've got a Hell of a lot more inactivity than me. You state a theory as to why CP didn't reveal his reasoning against me, then say it's up to him. I forget the part of mafia where you blindly follow others' finger pointing without knowing why they're doing it.
Fifth (and final) post. Nervousity? Nervousness, you mean? Of course I'm nervous, I've got four votes on me for weak reasoning. I've never had a bandwagon leveled at me before. I'm doing my best, believe me.
And I don't understand why OMGUS FoSing is a scum tell - it's an FoS, something that comes with little significance other than letting people know you're suspicious of them.
And the last bit is actually completely worthless in terms of determining scum.
You want me to make a case against the major reasoning against me? Sure.
RE: Not supporting Charlie's reveal on faulty grounds.
Okay, so what? Here's the thing about this that's wrong: I retracted the statement very quickly, realizing one-for-one trades are always good for the town. Regardless, my position against the info reveal for the reasons I gave was not scummy at all. I'm telling you, it was a knee-jerk reaction, taking the role at face value - using the info to confirm a townie when the need arose. Since then, I have changed my mind without provocation to do so. Doesn't that count for something?
RE: Reaction to bandwagon pressure showing nervousness.
I've never been this far under the microscope before and it's doing a lot to me psychologically. I'm simultaneously frightened, anxious and pissed off. I'm scared because I don't want to die and leave the town worse off. I'm anxious because that's about to happen. I'm pissed off because a lot of the case against me is bull, as I hope I've proven here.
RE: Inactivity as a scum tell.
Since that was even mentioned, my activity has picked up. It's complete bullcrap now, whereas Crippled_Fist still has relatively low activity.
This is because I haven't played mafia in so long that I'm beginning to think I've forgotten what I'm doing. This is also because I've just gotten into the most screwed up game possible on another site, and I've been trying to figure out both how to win that game and how to interpret your actions thus far. I'm 100% certain that either you or kops is scum, but I'm not sure which.
Unvote all. Big f'in FOS: Feuerdrache. Big f'in FOS: kops.
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If it gets to the point where we stop WIFOMing and pointing fingers, and actually do something productive like bandwagon, or discuss important issues, then i'll post more. (sorry if this post is taken as scummy). As with most games, i just want to get past Day 1, so we can have a better chance of catching scum. While finger pointing is great to determine if someone was trying to distance themself from a scumbuddy later on... i've never actually found it useful on Day 1.
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i.e. you're scum, or have some other information role that told you one of the two of us is scum, or you're lieing.... (and if you really are 100% sure... like as in mod-confirmed, then Feuer is the scum =P)
whichever it is fos annorax (even if it is the second case, then the fos is for dropping obvious hints)
I'm starting to think Feuer is town, and CP hasn't given his second reason yet... Twomz hasn't unvoted me nor has he presented a reason for voting me... Annorax is starting to seem more and more suspicious in my mind
I'm very very close to voting annorax, but I'll hear out a defense from him first
Trying to set up a double lynch on Day 1 is a very strong scum tell. (And before you say WIFOM, I'll just say that if you can provide some kind of solid reasoning for saying, as town, that one of the two is definitely scum, I'll change my mind. But like kops says, that would mean you have some kind of outside info.)
As for the case against Feuer, I'm not just letting it go, but he's defended himself satisfactorily for the moment, to me.
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Both are basically accused of general scummy actions. I think both have some truth behind them. I don't have time right now, but later today or tomorrow I'll try to decide which of them I'll vote. For now FOS Annorax for above reasons.
I'm the czar. The czar is town. Anastasia is in the game. I have no other mod-confirmed information or abilities. I was relying on my brilliant skills of deduction to FoS kops again. One or both of you is scum. I am not.
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I'm assuming that HC is anastasia... but i may be wrong.
Erm... vote stands on Kops. (dude, you just have 2 votes, it's day one... mellow out a bit man.)
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Huh. Makes sense, flavor-wise. I would have thought two roles that knew of the other's existance would be masons, but that's fine.
If Charlie isn't Anastasia, then the mod's really trying to get on our nerves.
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UnFOS All, Vote Feuerdrache because, as previously explained, you are the current scummiest (Though as a second candidate I guess we should look into C_F).
Secondly, like I said before, I'm not so sure about Feuerdache anymore, but I'm going to read over his posts again since Annorax appears to be cleared now, and I'm not sure who else to look at (as has been said, I do agree that C_F is a possibility)
I'm also going to work under the assumption that Hunted Charlie is also cleared...
What?
I made a very long and drawn-out post explaining why the accusations against me were unfair and false.
How about looking at the people who have been putting pressure where it shouldn't be?
The people who bandwagoned a town member?
And why did you reveal now, Annorax? I feel that you pulled the trigger too fast.
Annorax and I are cleared. Yay.
Annorax, explain, please, why you are so convinced that one of those two is scum. Even if you are a confirmed townie, you can't just say something like that without some evidence.
Holding my vote for the moment.
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98% so. Still I hate it when people throw around Day 1 cleared. That is hard to do. Although you are both looking very good. Annorax's play made me a little uneasy but he seems alright now.
At the moment we have little to go on. kops is seems to be randomly following people but it may just be his style. We all do it sometimes.
(Which reminds me: Unvote)
Feuerdrache doesn't look great but did a good job with responces so I will just keep an eye on him for now.
Abso does not seem to be contributing much, just random one sentences here and there. Although I can't say I have been that active myself so there is not too much of a case there. Just, you know, make longer posts.
Thats all I have for now. I will attempt to be more active.
They've both done and said some things in ways that have made me suspect either ulterior motives or stupidity. My current thoughts are that one is scum and the other is just stupid, but I'm torn as to which one might be which.
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Bet on stupidity. Unless they're siblings, which seem unlikely in a mini.
My best guess is either one of them's lying about his role, or they're both cleared, or something's up, because it seems like a useless drawback for a scum, who wouldn't reveal it anyway.
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Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Anyway, has everyone posted(and refrained from counterclaiming) since Annorax and HC claimed?
ummm, what on earth are you talking about
neither of us have claimed yet (I think you're getting confused, I suggest a reread)
I'm neither anastasia or the czar. However, is Annorax certain anastasia is town? It seems pretty certain, but I want to know if its for sure.
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26: 25.3%
He never expressed certainty, yet the mere fact that HC came out all of a sudden and confirmed Annorax like that seems to have cleared both.
An unlikely scenario would be some grand mafia ploy to confirm both of them. It just seems too risky to be likely, so I really think HC and Annorax are confirmed town.
I thought you were talking about HC and Annorax.
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My mistake, then. It's still not a clear assertion.
Because I don't play semantics games. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.
And again, FoS'ing shouldn't be a heavy indicator of scummy behavior. I know I'm town, so it's natural for me to be suspicious of the accusers when I feel the reasoning behind the pointed fingers is unjust.
Nervousness. * Feuerdrache twitches.
That's just a matter of the nature of my post - I was making a case against you in an attempt to at least partially clear myself. I was merely comparing us in a vacuum. There's plenty of inactivity in this game besides us, and I recognize that just fine.
God damn it, why?
This is my problem with the bandwagon railing against me - a lot of the posts that come after decent defenses by me contain things like "overall I'm pretty confident in my vote" or "Feuer's still the best chance we've got of catching scum."[/font]
I'm not certain Anastasia is town. I suspect it, the lyrics seem to support it, but I don't have in-game information that tells me Anastasia is absolutely, certainly town.
If Feuerdrache is scum, he's certainly well-bluffed scum. I think we should let this one rest and come back to him later if more evidence of scumminess surfaces.
Vote: Kops because he seems scummy and this game is slow as hell.
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Could somebody post a general explanation of the song's lyrics? It was all Greek to me.
And Feuerdrache does seem to be acting very townie now (as in, not scummy) so I'll downgrade it to a Unvote, FOS Feuerdrache
bad idea, this has been discussed already
Anybody?
Wikipedia works pretty well, but if you really need me to...
As for Anastasia and the czar specifically, the song is referring to the Russian royal family that was murdered in the cellar of a mansion. Anastasia was rumored to have lived, and two women claimed to be her (as it turned out, they weren't). There's a Disney movie called Anastasia based on the legend and the false-claimers.
And coming to think of it, it's pretty ironic that there was a false-claim of the real-world "role" of Anastasia. Though technically it's nothing scummy. Just coincidental that a Mafia ploy was used in the real world.
I could go more in-depth because I know a lot about history and I understood the references in the song. By the way, I love the reference to Julius Caesar, Charlie. ^-^ Regardless, I won't do it without permission from the town.
Right. Think the Bolshevik revolution. Or wiki it.
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1) If I was supposed to be one of the people false-claiming Anatasia and not Anatasia herself, I wouldn't know anything about the Czar.
2) Although that happened in real life, the song never referred to that. It only spoke about killing Anatasia, I believe.
Also, I find it weird that you make that assumption. I mean, my reaction would probably be very different (not as big) if you said something like "His claim is shaky" or something, but I don't like how you immediately assumed that I am scum based on my flavor.
Twomz is seeming very, very scummy to me in general now, but that could just be his playstyle. In one of his first few posts, he said that we should do an immediate mass-claim, and now you assume that I'm scum based on flavor. That's twice that you take immediate action on the scum's side.
Looking back at this post, it seems very overdefensive, but I'll just post it anyway because it was honestly what I thought when I saw that.
Let's look at the possibilities:
1) Both are town, and both are telling the truth. This is wierd because their abilities are not symmetrical. However, there is a slight flavor justification in that the czar would be unable to verify the "real" Anastasia.
2) HC is town and Annorax is mafia. This is fairly ridiculous, because it would be the mod screwing with us in a huge way.
3) HC is mafia and Annorax is town. This is a distinct possibility. It explains the non-symmetrical roles and it has flavor justification in that "Anastasia" is just a liar.
4) Both are scum. This is also a possibility, but unlikely for a couple reasons. First, why would Annorax willingly draw so much attention to two mafia members when the risk is so high, and second, why would he claim a non-symmetrical ability?
In any case, I'm willing to accept Annorax as town. I'm still on the fence about HC. I wonder who else thinks he's worthy of pressure? We already know his role and name, so I'm not sure what we're likely to get, but it's possible we might be able to break a mafia gambit.
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Consider this:
Anastasia screamed in vain
Directly from the lyrics.
If we have a cop, I would love for him to investigate Annorax. We may have a miller on our hands.
If not, 'rax is scum, and Anastasia's screams in vain that he is town are (obviously) unsuccessful. Or should be.
It's just a theory, but it's heavily supported by the lyrics.
I dunno, it'd be interesting to see the result. If it turns up guilty, it might be a viable lynch. :/
I'm not backing it fiercely though, it's just a stray thought.
And yes, my playstyle is usually extremely scummy. I say what's on my mind at the time, no matter what the conciquences to myself. All of my actions are bent on finding the scum, at any costs. I don't care if i get lynched along the way as long as we kill the scum.
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