Considering how negatively bandwagon voting is looked upon, it seems very unlikely that any experienced player would vote for someone just because someone else voted for that person.
Considering how negatively bandwagon voting is looked upon, it seems very unlikely that any experienced player would vote for someone just because someone else voted for that person.
you guys are giving way too much credit to experienced players. Im saying he waited to vote for me till it was clear i was the easiest lynch and till it was easy for him to vote me without looking scummy. Im partially at blame for the 2nd part, i have made it easy for him to vote me while looking innocent, but i still think mosschop's vote was why he finally switched, despit all his posts about me pryor.
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Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Considering how negatively bandwagon voting is looked upon, it seems very unlikely that any experienced player would vote for someone just because someone else voted for that person.
This is where logic goes out the window. WIFOM, Wine in front of Me, is the belief that someone will do something because they know that you will know what they should do.
A Mafia SHOULD technically bandwagon as it is the most effective course to solve the problem, but if they do so, they will be lynched the next day. BUT,some people think that if you know that they will do that, they wont do it. Confusion, and disarray, perfect mafia traits.
This is why certian traits are scummy, but are not usually followed too much as they can too easily be put out by townies, or can be mis-interpreted.
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:confused2:Asian-obsessed Elitist
Nan says: there should be more asian people
Lord Rahl: i agree
Nan says: they need to **** more
Quote from Feuerdrache »
Feuerdrache says: but but but
Lord Rahl says: what?
Feuerdrache says: she's a negroe!
Every post you make attacking me, i make one attacking you. Tit-for-Tat.
I am not driving a lynch on you either, for each tit you make upon me, i cause a tat upon you.
You attacked me, i defended myself with an attack on your credibility.
Tit-for-Tat is not a good way to play mafia. It is at the very heart and core of the OMGUS reasoning. I am suspicious of Lord Rahl for indulging in OMGUS like he is right now. The same could be said of Loran, but he seems use more logic (however crappy) rather than specifically stating he is using OMGUS reasoning.
Of course I could be misinterpreting what Lord Rahl is saying, but I would like further explanation from him on these points.
Tuatha, you still need to explain your vote further
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<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|It is Night 0. Night ends in 180 s (or when all choices are in). Submit actions to fadeblue
-fadeblue- Action confirmed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Hooga has been killed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Hooga was a Vigilante (town)
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|HuntedCharlie has been killed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|HuntedCharlie was a Bodyguard (town)
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Xylthixlm has been killed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Xylthixlm was a Vigilante (town)
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Game over! Winners: (mafia)fullversion+
I know I do, I'm sorry, but I'm really not feeling well, and I think my head would explode if I reread the thread as a whole, so I'm just keeping up at the moment. I'll do it before the end of the day, I promise.
alright, so heres how i see it, in no particular order:
1) i, for one, am about 80% sure that loran is town unfos loran
2) i am 60/40 on lord rahl in favor of scum
3) hooga is giving me a bad feeling... fos hooga
4) request modprod: athos... hes still voting himself for godsakes rofl
5) kokusho is also giving me a bad feeling with his near-contentless posts fos kokusho
5) cyan looks like hes filling the newb-townie role nicely, and if he were scum, im pretty sure he wouldnt be asking what scum means (some mods even choose to include the word scum in role pms... no idea if kijin did or not though, obviously)... but then again this is WIFOM
ok thats the short of it, heres the long:
Firstly, i'd like to say, when i do my reasoning, i almost never look for scum tells day 1... IMO, townies make almost as many, if not more scum tells than scum do, and it really is pointless (of course sometimes someone drops a tell that you just cant deny, like maybe fosing every single person but in general... not worth it). When i do my analysis, i essentially put myself in the place of the person im analyzing and see it through their eyes.
when i think of myself in loran's place... i definately see myself doing almost exactly what hes doing as a townie. some people are saying some pretty stupid things, so he argues against them and occasionaly (read: often) gets a bit aggressive. i especially cannot see someone who is scum acting in the way loran is acting (although, again WIFOM, yes), and honestly, just going with my gut, i see him as town. (btw, id just like to point out that your statement about what i did in newb 6 was slightly off... i voted all the scum too, not just the town)
as for lord rahl, i could go both ways on this. IMO, either both he and loran are townies who think the other is scum, or else this really is a puchick-passdog situation where we do have 1 scum 1 town. honestly, i think the fact that he did a pbpa on loran so early day 1 (ok i guess its not that early, but still i dont see it as necessary) moves him a little closer towards scum on my meter, especially since IMO, the pbpa proved nothing about loran, but he still concluded that loran is scum. i dont see too much else in favor or against rahl though, so im keeping him at 60%
as for hooga... to be honest, this one is just a gut and i really dont have too much of a convincing argument here... but oftentimes my gut has been right, but we'll see how it goes
kokusho.... yeah. one line posts really dont do much for the town, and honestly, you look too much like youre trying to avoid letting something slip. in fact, looking back over a few of your posts, i am seeing absolutely no content outside of the occasional vote or fos. im seeing nothing here to say even in the slightest that you are town, and youre posting just enough so youre not being a lurker while actually telling us nothing. in fact, after reading back, i changed my mind. unfos kokusho vote kokusho
for now, i think im gonna leave it at that that cyan is the newb-townie and not go after him for the most part, i think i basically covered it above
lastly, @ cop: if we lynch someone other than rahl today, i think hes your best investigation if nothing else comes up
well Kops seems to have ninja posted me, I see his post on the preview now... I have a lot of the same reasons/ideas he does, I even mention them in the same order.
I keep track of a little summary of everyone's posts, and was looking over it/updating it.
I seems to have convinced myself that Loran is town. The more I think about it (and review the summary of his posts), the more I believe that acting the way he is while being mafia is completely suicidal. A mafia player would probably be more subtle in his/her defenses. Of course this leads to WIFOM ("a mafia would know to be sublte, and thus act overt", etc) but I think thats probably ridiculous enough of a WIFOM that it is unlikely. unFOS
I would also like to get Diggy and Athos to post more. Diggy because I haven't heard anything from him lately (last post #124), and relatively little of his thoughts. Athos because he hasn't said anything since post #107. And even then he hasn't posted any of his thoughts either.
I'm torn on Lord Rahl, he's aroused suspicious of him because of his tit-for-tat argument, but I don't have anything else to go on, so no real opinion yet.
EPWODP: ok, not so sure if DIggy's last post was #124 anymore, since I seem to have listed that # twice in my summary. Regardless, it was around there.
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|It is Night 0. Night ends in 180 s (or when all choices are in). Submit actions to fadeblue
-fadeblue- Action confirmed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Hooga has been killed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Hooga was a Vigilante (town)
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|HuntedCharlie has been killed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|HuntedCharlie was a Bodyguard (town)
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Xylthixlm has been killed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Xylthixlm was a Vigilante (town)
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Game over! Winners: (mafia)fullversion+
To clarify the obviously confusing statement, i dont mean that im attacking him for the sake of him attacking me. I am attacking his credibility.
While he is suspicious, and i have voted for him, after him attacking me originally on such circumstancial evidence, and pushing so hard, i believe there is grounds.
The Tit-for-Tat comment means that as long as he continues to attack me so relentlessly, i shall defend myself by bringing his credibility into question. Going on the defensive rarely works out well for anyone, so im going on the offensive. If this is OMGUS, then its OMGUS.
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:confused2:Asian-obsessed Elitist
Nan says: there should be more asian people
Lord Rahl: i agree
Nan says: they need to **** more
Quote from Feuerdrache »
Feuerdrache says: but but but
Lord Rahl says: what?
Feuerdrache says: she's a negroe!
I have already mod-prodded Athos. I prodded kops as well, since I hadn't seen anything from him in the past couple of days and I purposely included that bit asking that players say when they're going on leaves of absences from the game for more than a day or two.
If you/I don't hear from Athos, I will give him a final warning and replace him if necessary.
Oh, damn. Kops basically just exactly paraphrased what I was going to say about Kokusho, so now it looks like I'm just ripping off him for my explanation. Curse you!
Hmmm, i see what kops is saying about Kokusho, but from what i saw in seinfeld, (in which hes a pretty much confirmed townie), he played similar to this in the beginning as well (actually he was more lurkerish than here).
So Im really not quite sure (remember hes only played in one other game here).
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Wait. I get FOS'ed for having countless posts? *points to loran* The reason that I don't say anything of content is that right now there is nothing much I can say. Let me sleep on the information I have and then I'll start helping.
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"No, I specifically heard denim. Looks like so crafty ghost is trying to break our code" -Bravo 3 "I know nothing of the law, only vengence" -Dom, U/G madness
im a little confused... arent i the one that requested the athos prod??? how does this correlate to me getting proded? *is confused* (sry loran had to steal that one)
EBWODP: oh sry didnt look at the time of your pm nvm... but in any case, diggy's last post was only 2 posts after mine, so if i got prodded, he should have been too
unFOS Loran (thought I did, but I now see I wasn't clear enough)
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<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|It is Night 0. Night ends in 180 s (or when all choices are in). Submit actions to fadeblue
-fadeblue- Action confirmed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Hooga has been killed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Hooga was a Vigilante (town)
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|HuntedCharlie has been killed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|HuntedCharlie was a Bodyguard (town)
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Xylthixlm has been killed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Xylthixlm was a Vigilante (town)
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Game over! Winners: (mafia)fullversion+
@Kops, I haven't TMed the "*is confused*" phrase yet, so its all right for you to use it :-P
There's a LOT of suspicion at Kokusho. I still think Rahl is mafia, but Id thought id do a quick PBPA of Kokusho to see if he has actually been behaving scummy.
-------------------------
All of Kokusho's writing is in italics. Bolded are additions i made to make some of these things make sense in context.
Quote from kokusho, duh »
Vote diggy
Random votes may be randomly right. Randomly.
<Quote about how Kokusho is black, thus he must be scum goes here> Am I evil? Or just missunderstood?
I'm telling you guys diggy has been found guilty by the randomness of finger pointing.
I'm voting for diggy not the otherway around.
Okay, kokusho starts out with a random vote and joking about it. Nothing really suspicious so far.
And so the game desends into anarcy. Unvote. Vote Deliverance. I don't know but you seem like a trouble maker, hidding in plain sight.
Near the end of the deliverance fiasco, votes deliverance. Now voting deliverance isnt really scummy, but Kokusho actually categorizes it as if Deliv could be mafia from his actions, which is rather weird (no one else voted or FOSed Deliv for being mafia, rather for being a total jerk.).
Meanwhile, it should be noted others have FOSed deliv and/or voted him at this point, and kokusho is pretty much the last to do so.
Unvote. Vote diggy. With delivernce gone back to random. Plus posting in red? mafi=red, blood=red. Suspcious, no?
In all serious though this game needs to be kept on track. The mods here put on great games and should get the upmost respect.
This is Kokusho's first long post. After the deliverance fiasco, he goes back to random voting, voting the same person. Is this scummy? I dont really think so as his 2nd paragraph makes clear the 1st is almost a joke. Random voting the same person twice could be just due to a joke between the two people, or just a vote kokusho likes due to looking at previous games. Its rather hard to tell.
Can't even trust yourself, eh? FOS lord Rahl.
FOSes Rahl for voting himself. Nothing much so far....
loran note: Kokusho had just been accused of wagon jumping from one person to another by KCW Someone has to spark converstaion. You seem on my case. First because I'm a black card, next this. Hmmmm. Although lack of sleep is partly to blame.
Now whats interesting is Kokusho has fingered 3 people. Deliv (which couldve been easily ignored), FOSed Rahl, and voted diggy out of randomness. KCW's accusation should be easily defendable. But instead he claims "Someone has to start conversation."
Like the deliv vote, Kokusho presents us with a serious reason here for something that really shouldnt mean anything at all. Very Strange behavior.
Hey I wanted to lynch deliverance because I think he was making the game unfun. Then I went back to diggy because I was bored.
INCONSISTANCY ALERT. Wow, Id completely missed this. Above he says that Deliverance's trouble in plain sight could be a sign of mafia (or at least implies it). Now he mentions that he voted deliv cuz he made the game unfun? This is a clear inconsistancy from the above quote.
This right here is our first scum tell on Kokusho (Inconsitancies with vote reasoning is a strong scum tell).
Yes. As long as you get off random votes.
In response to Cyan about whether mafia has strategy or not.
People have pointed out my 'flip-flop' but who here did not want to lynch deliverance? Unvote. Randoms done.
Defends himself from deliv vote again. This was after the Tuatha accusation by me, but no comment on it by kokusho at this point.
Quote from next 2 posts »
Keep it civil
Sorry, misread a post.
Nothing to see here, bizarre reaction to an accusation at Tuatha that was nothing but civil compared to earlier parts of this game.
World cup> March maddness.
Random comment here that has no significance to the game. Kokusho seems to make a bit of these.
Your using some crazy logic loran.
A comment on my rahl logic, but NO Fos or Vote on the matter. Kokusho has been relatively quiet with FOSes and votes since his unvote earlier.
I'm going to FOS loran. He is using some crazy logic. Same with Lord rahl I let them sort it out.
With 5 FOSes on me, and only 2 on Rahl, Kokusho FOSes me despite saying that both of us are using crazy logic. Its almost seems like a bandwagoning FOS, and its his first FOS since he was accused of trying to start a bandwagon.
In response to Cyan's comment about how only a few people were posting:
There isn't really any info for me to go off and say something about.
See, Kokusho's been doing this all game. He's been making little posts to let people know he's here, but having so little content in them that he really isnt saying ANYTHING at all! It seems like he's desperately trying to avoid being called a lurker, but is trying to lurk all the same.
Wait. I get FOS'ed for having countless posts? *points to loran* The reason that I don't say anything of content is that right now there is nothing much I can say. Let me sleep on the information I have and then I'll start helping.
Once again says let me sleep in response to accusations, and points a finger away from himself.
-------------------
Kokusho's PBPA shows one glaring inconsistancy, and he's way too serious with certain votes and FOSes. Not to mention the fact that since he was accused the first time, he has been pretty contentless in his posts, and only FOSed one person (me) after i had 5 FOSes already. Meanwhile, in the same vote that he FOSed me, he thinks Rahl is just as crazy as me, but doesnt FOS Rahl (who only has 2 FOSes on him).
That deliv inconsistancy is just too much for me. I have to Unvote.
Vote Kokusho for all that ive outlined. FOS Lord Rahl, Im still in the mindset you are mafia.
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Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Near the end of the deliverance fiasco, votes deliverance. Now voting deliverance isnt really scummy, but Kokusho actually categorizes it as if Deliv could be mafia from his actions, which is rather weird (no one else voted or FOSed Deliv for being mafia, rather for being a total jerk.).
<snip>
INCONSISTANCY ALERT. Wow, Id completely missed this. Above he says that Deliverance's trouble in plain sight could be a sign of mafia (or at least implies it). Now he mentions that he voted deliv cuz he made the game unfun? This is a clear inconsistancy from the above quote.
This right here is our first scum tell on Kokusho (Inconsitancies with vote reasoning is a strong scum tell).
I agree that inconsistencies in reasoning are a strong scum tell, but am unsure how inconsistant Koko is actually being here. Saying deli is a "trouble maker hiding in plain sight" implies that deli could be mafia, but all it actually says is that deli was a trouble maker. Trouble makers (in this context, as context is important) could also be people who piss off the mods or break the rules of the game. These people do make the game unfun, as koko's next vote justification gives. So I can see how his second comment follows very easilly from his first comment, and is therefore not inconsistent.
I dunno, I see the logic you're using, but I think it craplogic.
Quote from loran16 »
See, Kokusho's been doing this all game. He's been making little posts to let people know he's here, but having so little content in them that he really isnt saying ANYTHING at all! It seems like he's desperately trying to avoid being called a lurker, but is trying to lurk all the same.
<snip>
Not to mention the fact that since he was accused the first time, he has been pretty contentless in his posts, and only FOSed one person (me) after i had 5 FOSes already. Meanwhile, in the same vote that he FOSed me, he thinks Rahl is just as crazy as me, but doesnt FOS Rahl (who only has 2 FOSes on him).
This is the part that gets me. Both Koko and Diggy have been doing this. Koko has been making more contentless posts, whereas Diggy is just plain lurking. Contentless posts seems an effort to disguise something, while lurking seems less of such an effort. I'm slightly suspicious of Diggy too, but I am suspicious of Koko, not for what Loran thinks is an inconsistency (but which I do not think is an inconsistency), but for his habit of posting nothing and passing that off as not lurking.
Unvote. I am not completely satisfied with Tuatha's explanation, because I would have felt better if it was in Tuatha's own words rather than just referencing someone else's post. However, that's not enough to warrent a FOS or vote in my opinion. I would appreciate your own words next time though Tuatha.
Also, UnFOS All just in case I have more than one going... Vote Kokusho
see above for justification
the reasons this time have nothing to do with the reasons I voted him last time I voted him (back at the end of random stage), by the way.
players we haven't heard much from (as far as content of posts goes, not number of posts):
Athos (has promised some thoughts)
Kokoshu
Diggy
KCW
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<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|It is Night 0. Night ends in 180 s (or when all choices are in). Submit actions to fadeblue
-fadeblue- Action confirmed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Hooga has been killed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Hooga was a Vigilante (town)
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|HuntedCharlie has been killed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|HuntedCharlie was a Bodyguard (town)
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Xylthixlm has been killed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Xylthixlm was a Vigilante (town)
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Game over! Winners: (mafia)fullversion+
Wow. This is great. don't lynch me untill I claim if I get vote away.
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"No, I specifically heard denim. Looks like so crafty ghost is trying to break our code" -Bravo 3 "I know nothing of the law, only vengence" -Dom, U/G madness
I've just gone through the thread and updated all of my notes. I want to sit and let it simmer for a little while, but right now these are my top concers:
loran16 - He's been using entirely too much WIFOM and crap logic in his posts.
kops723 - He's posted absolutely no content until post #169 and that one was full of appeals to emotion to justify his arguments. As well there was a particularly egregious directive to the cop at the end of the post that is a huge nono.
Moreover both have suddenly jumped on a previously non-existent Kokusho wagon with no real reason.
I'm just bloody unhappy with both of them right now.
I need to stew on this for a little while and see if I may need to place a vote here. Expect more in the morning.
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Straddling the thin line between genius and insanity.
I've been holding off but Vote Loran. I was going to vote for him when I claim but you know. Look at his main point
INCONSISTANCY ALERT. Wow, Id completely missed this. Above he says that Deliverance's trouble in plain sight could be a sign of mafia (or at least implies it). Now he mentions that he voted deliv cuz he made the game unfun? This is a clear inconsistancy from the above quote
The reason I said that is because previously he was still in the game. Now I'm a nice guy and won't say I hate you so I vote for you. When I said be civil loran it was cause I thought you said Hey hilarious to lord rahl. I thought that was mean so I said so. Basicaly I'm accused off
1. random voting the same guy and not bandwagoning
2. Not saying I didn't like a guy when he was in game
3. Not being able to say much.
I'm sorry I can't analize that well but its 11:00 at night when I post mostly and I'm new at this game.
Loran's logic is rediculously bad. His main point falls and so does his case. If you look he was saying I'm not scummy when hes after lord rahl then when he sense the bandwagon changing he hops over.
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"No, I specifically heard denim. Looks like so crafty ghost is trying to break our code" -Bravo 3 "I know nothing of the law, only vengence" -Dom, U/G madness
Unvote. FOS Kokusho. Don't want a lynch yet, and we're too close for comfort.
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<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|It is Night 0. Night ends in 180 s (or when all choices are in). Submit actions to fadeblue
-fadeblue- Action confirmed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Hooga has been killed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Hooga was a Vigilante (town)
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|HuntedCharlie has been killed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|HuntedCharlie was a Bodyguard (town)
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Xylthixlm has been killed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Xylthixlm was a Vigilante (town)
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Game over! Winners: (mafia)fullversion+
EBWODP: sorry, was going to go to bed there (hence short previous post), picked up on something I should write down before I forget
@ Athos, your comment on Kops. Admittedly, he hasn't posted much content before his post #169, but he's certainly posted more than, well, youself (not attacking you or anything). For example, in post #122 Kops was the 1st person to bring to attention Loran's Unvote/Revote habit.
Anyhow, I also don't see how his post was just an emotional appeal. The emotional parts were his FOS of me, and his justification for his logic ("put myself in the place of the person"). However, even though he has this emotional system of starting his logic, the logic itself is sound - he basically says (I'm paraphrasing) that scum won't act so obviously aggressive as loran has been doing (I believe I termed it suicidal in one of my posts)
And at his directive to the cop, I've actually seen a lot of that kind of reasoning/directions on games on this site, particularilly past newb games - "if x gets lynched, the cop should investigate y" and such arguments. I personally don't agree with giving any of the town power roles directions, but I can see how Kops especially would attempt that, since he's played in newb games on this site before (newb 6 I believe, which had quite few of those directions in it).
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<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|It is Night 0. Night ends in 180 s (or when all choices are in). Submit actions to fadeblue
-fadeblue- Action confirmed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Hooga has been killed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Hooga was a Vigilante (town)
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|HuntedCharlie has been killed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|HuntedCharlie was a Bodyguard (town)
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Xylthixlm has been killed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Xylthixlm was a Vigilante (town)
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Game over! Winners: (mafia)fullversion+
Diggy, its hard to use antoher game as an example of play style when we dont know your alignment in that game :-P. (incidientally, thats why i wouldnt mind being lynched in seinfeld, as i said in that game.).
oh, and UnvoteFOS Kokusho until Kokusho claims for now.
@Athos. Im never sure about kops, but he was at time real emotional in his last game, so im not sure about that as a tell. As for leading the cop, well, thats a scummy move true. I dont know what to say on that one.
@also at Athos, Is my PBPA on Kokusho Craplogic?
@Hooga, Explain these two things to me:
A. Kokusho's reasoning for his vote on Deliverance WAS NOT that he was making the game unfun. It was that he seemed like a troublemaker "hiding in plain sight." Why use those words? Other people had already voted Deliv or suggested to do so because the game was not fun. Kokusho's reasoning was actually that he could be mafia! Of course he later changed his reasoning, which is the inconsistancy.
B. You defend Kokusho's inconsistancy, and then you vote him in the same post. Curious......
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Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
I'm a little confused. Lots of people think Kokusho is mafia, so, they vote for him. But then, for absolutely no reason that I can ascertain, people suddenly start unvoting him? Why is this? Hooga's post says:
Quote from Hooga »
Unvote. FOS Kokusho. Don't want a lynch yet, and we're too close for comfort.
I thought that whole idea of the game was to lynch people that you suspect are scum. Why, then, would you unvote someone? Even if Kokusho is scum, there's no way for him to prove that he's not. He can't just say 'yeah I'm a townie kkthx'. For one, that seems like it would violate the spirit of the game if it were true, and for two, why would anyone believe him anyway. Not that I think he's scum. I actually don't. Loran's PBPA of Kokusho left alot to be desired, I thought. Yeah, Kokusho had some inconsistency..but only a little, and his actions don't seem nearly as scummy as Lorans. I think that Loran16 has, once again, taken advantage of another player's situation to shift the attention from himself and onto someone else. As I said before, anytime that Loran conceivably can say that someone is scum, he does so. This is the third time that this has happened. But this time, it seems like he realized that people jumped on the bandwagon because of his post, and now he wants off. Why? Because he is scum, and knows that Kokusho is not scum, and knows that, if Kokusho gets lynched, people will come after him immediately for, more or less, cementing the vote against Kokusho.
I also find it suspicious that Hooga defends Kokusho, and then votes for him anyway. Honestly, I think that he's just intimidated by Loran and doesn't want to vote for him, lest Loran turn his attention to him instead. This seems like a really weak action to me, though not actually scummy...just lame. Although, again, it casts a bad light on Loran.
Cyan, when a person is near lynch in a mafia game, they usually get to claim the name of their role and (if they have any) any abilities they might possess. This might changed the town's decision on whether to lynch him if he has a very safe rolename, or it could help the town avoid lynching a cop/doc/otherunknownpowerrole.
So right now, Unvoting when we're at one vote a way from a lynch is very NOT scummy, because kokusho is well aware that he has to claim his role right now.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
That is the lamest thing I have heard of. Ever. If that's the case, why don't all of the townies simply declare that they're townies. Then everyone will know whom the Mafia are, and lynch them and win. How utterly ridiculous.
Aside from that, why would we believe him? It seems far too easy to just claim to be a townie, regardless of what role(s) are available. If you're about to lose anyway, mise well just lie, right? If a person is about to get lynched and claims to be the Cop, is the real Cop going to just come out and disprove them? I should hope not, since that would make the Cop role pointless anyway, as they'd just get constantly roleblocked. This really doesn't make any sense to me, whatsoever.
Well, but if the cop got roleblocked, then the roleblocker would be useless too. If there even is one. Why are you so eager to get the lynching on with, anyway? unFoS all, FoS Cyan
That is the lamest thing I have heard of. Ever. If that's the case, why don't all of the townies simply declare that they're townies. Then everyone will know whom the Mafia are, and lynch them and win. How utterly ridiculous.
Aside from that, why would we believe him? It seems far too easy to just claim to be a townie, regardless of what role(s) are available. If you're about to lose anyway, mise well just lie, right? If a person is about to get lynched and claims to be the Cop, is the real Cop going to just come out and disprove them? I should hope not, since that would make the Cop role pointless anyway, as they'd just get constantly roleblocked. This really doesn't make any sense to me, whatsoever.
Cyan, first of all in your second situtation, if he claims cop, the real cop should come and claim. Even if the town lynches wrong it will lynch right the next day, As a 1 for 1 trade is GOOD for the town since mafia are always outnumbered to start.
And Cyan, claiming is quite useful. Take for example Seinfeld mafia. I was possbily going to be lynched day 1, but I claimed Jerry Seinfeld. As such, the town backed off, as jerry seinfeld was quite unlikely to be mafia. Now given, this theme is of a really random show that there are little to no roles i can think of whose names would automatically clear kokusho, but it still is something that is normally done.
Also Cyan, if kokusho claims cop and isnt cop, when the real cop claims, the doc will protect the cop from thereon.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
I thought that whole idea of the game was to lynch people that you suspect are scum. Why, then, would you unvote someone? Even if Kokusho is scum, there's no way for him to prove that he's not. He can't just say 'yeah I'm a townie kkthx'.
We don't automatically believe him if he were to claim, rather we analyze whether his claim makes sense based on the game's context and his previous actions.
What we want from Kokusho is a claim of his role (or so much as he wants to reveal), but especially to claim a character role that makes sense with his game role.
I suggest you read other games on this site some, claiming is an integral part of mafia.
Quote from Cyan »
I also find it suspicious that Hooga defends Kokusho, and then votes for him anyway. Honestly, I think that he's just intimidated by Loran and doesn't want to vote for him, lest Loran turn his attention to him instead. This seems like a really weak action to me, though not actually scummy...just lame.
Quote from Loran16 »
B. You defend Kokusho's inconsistancy, and then you vote him in the same post. Curious......
I'm going to address these points together, since the "defends then votes for him" part is the same. What I was doing in the first part of my post (addressing Loran's "inconsistency" argument) was dismantling what I think is craplogic. We must determine between bad arguments against someone and the actual arguments against them, hence why I disagree with the inconsistency argument.
I then point out and agree with other points made against Kokusho, mainly his lurking and his contentless posts, which is why I voted for him. These I consider good arguments.
If you see my refuting of Loran's inconsistency logic as a defence of Koko, it wasn't meant as such, it was meant as an attack on craplogic. I consider it important to sort bad logic from good logic, and weigh the good logic points when deciding my vote.
Refuting bad logic against someone doesn't remove the suspicions caused good logic on them.
As for your other point Loran:
Quote from Loran »
A. Kokusho's reasoning for his vote on Deliverance WAS NOT that he was making the game unfun. It was that he seemed like a troublemaker "hiding in plain sight." Why use those words? Other people had already voted Deliv or suggested to do so because the game was not fun. Kokusho's reasoning was actually that he could be mafia!
Koko implies what you said, but extremely weakly, and his statement about about "troublemaker" is open to interpretation. You can't simply interpret it as Koko meant mafia, because troublemakers are also people who ruin games.
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<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|It is Night 0. Night ends in 180 s (or when all choices are in). Submit actions to fadeblue
-fadeblue- Action confirmed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Hooga has been killed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Hooga was a Vigilante (town)
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|HuntedCharlie has been killed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|HuntedCharlie was a Bodyguard (town)
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Xylthixlm has been killed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Xylthixlm was a Vigilante (town)
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Game over! Winners: (mafia)fullversion+
Koko implies what you said, but extremely weakly, and his statement about about "troublemaker" is open to interpretation. You can't simply interpret it as Koko meant mafia, because troublemakers are also people who ruin games.
Well here's where i disagree. You can say that Deliv is a troublemaker, fine! No one is arguing that.
BUt saying you're voting deliv because hes a troublemaker or hes making the game not fun, you wouldnt say:
he seemed like a troublemaker "hiding in plain sight
This last line makes NO SENSE in your interpretation!
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
I'm not eager to see a townie get lynched. I just fail to understand the logic behind 'lets make someone look like the bad guy, but then back off when they're about to get lynched'. It just doesn't seem like anything can ever happen in this game. 1 step forward, 2 steps back, as the saying goes. I understand that one townie doesn't want to lynch another townie, because that's how you lose the game. I just don't see how anything gets accomplished if people vote for a person then just as quickly unvote.
Diggy: Yeah, I know that people lie..what does that have to do with anything?
Loran:
A: WHY should the real cop come and claim? It really seems like that is just cheating, to be honest. I could see if the real cop responded and helped convince people that the person was lying, but, to simply say 'You can't be the cop because I am the cop' seems ridiculous. If that person can prove that they're the cop, they're essentially immune to the lynch. Can the Mafia actually win this game?
Hooga:
I agree with Loran that Kokusho was inconsistent. Randomly voting for someone seems fine. But saying that you're voting for a person because they're a trouble maker hiding in plain sight is not the same as voting randomly, nor is it the same as voting for them because they 'make the game not fun'. To say they're a troublemaker implies some kind of in game role playing, to say they're just making the game not fun is more of a personal attack on them. It's definetely inconsistent..though I don't think it's enough so to make Kokusho scum, I think Loran was just bandwagoning.
Alot of the 'logic' in this game still doesn't make sense to me. It seems as though the game itself grossly favors the town to win, and that's really not very much fun.
How is it not grossly favored? There are more town than Mafia, and anytime a town member is close to getting lynched, they can just state their role to save? How does a town person ever actually get lynched?
@Cyan: First of all, the mafia has the advantage of knowing who each one of them are.
Second of all, the town is not favored because a good mafia member is able to A. Come up with a good false claim (they don't say their real names) and B. Because of this, its hard to tell when a real townie says their name if its a townie name or not. Mafia is a game of detecting lies in claims, as well as detecting hints of scumminess in the other players.
Meanwhile, if there is a role blocker (no guarentee of this), the cop can be held neutralized, so the town is not greatly favored by the cop revealing himself. Furthermore, when the doc is killed, the cop is no longer immune to night kills. But the game is normally set up (barring an extreme set up) that a 1 for 1 trade (if mafia claims cop, is counterclaimed, and both players are neutralized) is in favor for the town. This means that the mafia cannot just simply claim Cop and Doc to lure out power roles, preventing them from having an unfair advantage.
-------
Im still waiting on a kokusho name claim.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
kops723 - He's posted absolutely no content until post #169 and that one was full of appeals to emotion to justify his arguments. As well there was a particularly egregious directive to the cop at the end of the post that is a huge nono.
Moreover both have suddenly jumped on a previously non-existent Kokusho wagon with no real reason.
umm excuse me... i was the first one to vote him (i dont count tuatha b/c that was a long time ago and not part of the wagon) I DID NOT JUMP ON ANY WAGON, not only that, but i outlined my reasons more than enough to warrant a vote, thirdly, as has already been said, i've posted way more content than you even before that post, oh one whos still voting himself... and finally, i have no idea what emotional appeal youre talking about, i just said i had a gut about hooga which is perfectly legal for me to say, honestly... fos athos for using the worst craplogic so far this game (and that is saying something)
anyway, on a non-ticked off/defensive note, @Cyan, we dont want to lynch kokusho yet because he just claimed power role (for the most part)... therefore what good would it do to the town to have him sitting at 5 votes??? there is nothing wrong with unvoting him at this point
well, i guess there isnt much to do right now other than wait for kokusho, but since im pretty sure ill end up doing this once he claims anyway, unvote major fos kokusho
Okay I die now. Unless the doc protects me *Hint hint* I'm Www.yzzerdd.com. I am cop. Guys lets lynch loran. Getting a cop to claim is not very good.
EBWODP
Don't Click the link. It could screw your computer. I copied and pasted the name so I would not misspell it. Please fade get out of hyperlink if it is allowed.
"No, I specifically heard denim. Looks like so crafty ghost is trying to break our code" -Bravo 3 "I know nothing of the law, only vengence" -Dom, U/G madness
WTF is that link kokusho? I didnt click on it, but why the hell is it there.
Okay, we have a copclaim..., If someone else out there is the cop please counter-claim him. The doc will protect you, and getting a scum killed day 1 is worth possibly being role blocked for a while.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
I copied the link out of the PM. My name was hyperlinked. I did not want to mispell it.
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"No, I specifically heard denim. Looks like so crafty ghost is trying to break our code" -Bravo 3 "I know nothing of the law, only vengence" -Dom, U/G madness
Ah, thats your role name. Id forgotten the name of the site in that episode (I have seen that episode).
And in that episode that website forced pop ups and advertisements into the lives of the aqua teens, forcing them to move out of hte house to get away from the ads (though it didnt work, somehow the adds followed them).
So your role name is skeptical (though its hard to tell from role names as i said before...almost everyone has a reason to hate the ATHF in some episode of the show).
So If someone else is the real cop, please claim now....
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
I don't want to quote so I'll use another name for it. I use tracking programs that start with an s *Spy----* to find out thier alignment.
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"No, I specifically heard denim. Looks like so crafty ghost is trying to break our code" -Bravo 3 "I know nothing of the law, only vengence" -Dom, U/G madness
I've been on Kokusho's side this whole time, but, the chance that the Cop was the first person to even possibly be lynched seems soooo unlikely to me. And honestly, if you are the Cop, it seems like you go out of your way to not post anything remotely suspicious, otherwise you've basically nullified either your role or the role of the doctor, assuming that A)there is a doc and B)there's a roleblocker.
And honestly, if you are the Cop, it seems like you go out of your way to not post anything remotely suspicious, otherwise you've basically nullified either your role or the role of the doctor, assuming that.
I tried. Look at lorans logic. Its really bad. People followed it. I really tried.
EBWODP
Quote from loran16 »
Ah, thats your role name. Id forgotten the name of the site in that episode (I have seen that episode).
And in that episode that website forced pop ups and advertisements into the lives of the aqua teens, forcing them to move out of hte house to get away from the ads (though it didnt work, somehow the adds followed them).
So your role name is skeptical (though its hard to tell from role names as i said before...almost everyone has a reason to hate the ATHF in some episode of the show).
So If someone else is the real cop, please claim now....
Ok flavor. How can a website kill someone? It can't. How can a website be a cop. Spy programs. No one will claim cop because I am the cop. Now you know what that means. Someone is going to get lynched. And right now I'm thinking you.
"No, I specifically heard denim. Looks like so crafty ghost is trying to break our code" -Bravo 3 "I know nothing of the law, only vengence" -Dom, U/G madness
Ok flavor. How can a website kill someone? It can't. How can a website be a cop. Spy programs. No one will claim cop because I am the cop. Now you know what that means. Someone is going to get lynched. And right now I'm thinking you.
THeres not a single character in ATHF which can realisticly kill a person. The website brings up pop up windows in their house, not on the computer, in the show which fill their house leaving them no room to live and thus they flee ot the jungle. At the end of the episode however, the popup adds start coming up in the jungle as well.
Obviously, im not cop or id counterclaim you. Id like to wait for the rest of the town to wake up and post "not cop" or "cop" before doing anything.
EBWODP. Okay, Cyan, if you are the cop, and you are giving off STRONG signs that you are in my mind, please counterclaim kokusho. We're not going to lynch a claimed cop otherwise.
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
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That is your porogative. I have made my intentions known since early in the thread...
you guys are giving way too much credit to experienced players. Im saying he waited to vote for me till it was clear i was the easiest lynch and till it was easy for him to vote me without looking scummy. Im partially at blame for the 2nd part, i have made it easy for him to vote me while looking innocent, but i still think mosschop's vote was why he finally switched, despit all his posts about me pryor.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
This is where logic goes out the window. WIFOM, Wine in front of Me, is the belief that someone will do something because they know that you will know what they should do.
A Mafia SHOULD technically bandwagon as it is the most effective course to solve the problem, but if they do so, they will be lynched the next day. BUT,some people think that if you know that they will do that, they wont do it. Confusion, and disarray, perfect mafia traits.
This is why certian traits are scummy, but are not usually followed too much as they can too easily be put out by townies, or can be mis-interpreted.
Tit-for-Tat is not a good way to play mafia. It is at the very heart and core of the OMGUS reasoning. I am suspicious of Lord Rahl for indulging in OMGUS like he is right now. The same could be said of Loran, but he seems use more logic (however crappy) rather than specifically stating he is using OMGUS reasoning.
Of course I could be misinterpreting what Lord Rahl is saying, but I would like further explanation from him on these points.
Tuatha, you still need to explain your vote further
-fadeblue- Action confirmed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Hooga has been killed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Hooga was a Vigilante (town)
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|HuntedCharlie has been killed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|HuntedCharlie was a Bodyguard (town)
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Xylthixlm has been killed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Xylthixlm was a Vigilante (town)
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Game over! Winners: (mafia)fullversion+
1) i, for one, am about 80% sure that loran is town unfos loran
2) i am 60/40 on lord rahl in favor of scum
3) hooga is giving me a bad feeling... fos hooga
4) request modprod: athos... hes still voting himself for godsakes rofl
5) kokusho is also giving me a bad feeling with his near-contentless posts fos kokusho
5) cyan looks like hes filling the newb-townie role nicely, and if he were scum, im pretty sure he wouldnt be asking what scum means (some mods even choose to include the word scum in role pms... no idea if kijin did or not though, obviously)... but then again this is WIFOM
ok thats the short of it, heres the long:
Firstly, i'd like to say, when i do my reasoning, i almost never look for scum tells day 1... IMO, townies make almost as many, if not more scum tells than scum do, and it really is pointless (of course sometimes someone drops a tell that you just cant deny, like maybe fosing every single person but in general... not worth it). When i do my analysis, i essentially put myself in the place of the person im analyzing and see it through their eyes.
when i think of myself in loran's place... i definately see myself doing almost exactly what hes doing as a townie. some people are saying some pretty stupid things, so he argues against them and occasionaly (read: often) gets a bit aggressive. i especially cannot see someone who is scum acting in the way loran is acting (although, again WIFOM, yes), and honestly, just going with my gut, i see him as town. (btw, id just like to point out that your statement about what i did in newb 6 was slightly off... i voted all the scum too, not just the town)
as for lord rahl, i could go both ways on this. IMO, either both he and loran are townies who think the other is scum, or else this really is a puchick-passdog situation where we do have 1 scum 1 town. honestly, i think the fact that he did a pbpa on loran so early day 1 (ok i guess its not that early, but still i dont see it as necessary) moves him a little closer towards scum on my meter, especially since IMO, the pbpa proved nothing about loran, but he still concluded that loran is scum. i dont see too much else in favor or against rahl though, so im keeping him at 60%
as for hooga... to be honest, this one is just a gut and i really dont have too much of a convincing argument here... but oftentimes my gut has been right, but we'll see how it goes
kokusho.... yeah. one line posts really dont do much for the town, and honestly, you look too much like youre trying to avoid letting something slip. in fact, looking back over a few of your posts, i am seeing absolutely no content outside of the occasional vote or fos. im seeing nothing here to say even in the slightest that you are town, and youre posting just enough so youre not being a lurker while actually telling us nothing. in fact, after reading back, i changed my mind. unfos kokusho vote kokusho
for now, i think im gonna leave it at that that cyan is the newb-townie and not go after him for the most part, i think i basically covered it above
lastly, @ cop: if we lynch someone other than rahl today, i think hes your best investigation if nothing else comes up
I keep track of a little summary of everyone's posts, and was looking over it/updating it.
I seems to have convinced myself that Loran is town. The more I think about it (and review the summary of his posts), the more I believe that acting the way he is while being mafia is completely suicidal. A mafia player would probably be more subtle in his/her defenses. Of course this leads to WIFOM ("a mafia would know to be sublte, and thus act overt", etc) but I think thats probably ridiculous enough of a WIFOM that it is unlikely. unFOS
I would also like to get Diggy and Athos to post more. Diggy because I haven't heard anything from him lately (last post #124), and relatively little of his thoughts. Athos because he hasn't said anything since post #107. And even then he hasn't posted any of his thoughts either.
I'm torn on Lord Rahl, he's aroused suspicious of him because of his tit-for-tat argument, but I don't have anything else to go on, so no real opinion yet.
EPWODP: ok, not so sure if DIggy's last post was #124 anymore, since I seem to have listed that # twice in my summary. Regardless, it was around there.
-fadeblue- Action confirmed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Hooga has been killed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Hooga was a Vigilante (town)
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|HuntedCharlie has been killed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|HuntedCharlie was a Bodyguard (town)
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Xylthixlm has been killed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Xylthixlm was a Vigilante (town)
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Game over! Winners: (mafia)fullversion+
While he is suspicious, and i have voted for him, after him attacking me originally on such circumstancial evidence, and pushing so hard, i believe there is grounds.
The Tit-for-Tat comment means that as long as he continues to attack me so relentlessly, i shall defend myself by bringing his credibility into question. Going on the defensive rarely works out well for anyone, so im going on the offensive. If this is OMGUS, then its OMGUS.
If you/I don't hear from Athos, I will give him a final warning and replace him if necessary.
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So Im really not quite sure (remember hes only played in one other game here).
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
"I know nothing of the law, only vengence" -Dom, U/G madness
EBWODP: oh sry didnt look at the time of your pm nvm... but in any case, diggy's last post was only 2 posts after mine, so if i got prodded, he should have been too
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Lord rahl (1) - loran16
Cyan (1) - KCW
Tuatha (1) - Hooga
Athos (1) - Athos
Diggy (1) - Diggy
Loran16 (3) - Cyan, Mosschop, Lord rahl
Kokusho (2) - Tuatha, kops
FOS List:
Kokusho - 2x Tuatha
loran16 - Lord rahl, Cyan, Hooga, Mosschop, Tuatha, kokusho
Tuatha - Lord rahl
Lord rahl - Mosschop, Tuatha
hooga - kops
With 11 in, a majority vote requires 6 to lynch!
1 player/s are currently not voting!
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-fadeblue- Action confirmed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Hooga has been killed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Hooga was a Vigilante (town)
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|HuntedCharlie has been killed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|HuntedCharlie was a Bodyguard (town)
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Xylthixlm has been killed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Xylthixlm was a Vigilante (town)
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Game over! Winners: (mafia)fullversion+
I'll try to get caught up and post my collected thoughts today.
There's a LOT of suspicion at Kokusho. I still think Rahl is mafia, but Id thought id do a quick PBPA of Kokusho to see if he has actually been behaving scummy.
-------------------------
All of Kokusho's writing is in italics. Bolded are additions i made to make some of these things make sense in context.
Okay, kokusho starts out with a random vote and joking about it. Nothing really suspicious so far.
Near the end of the deliverance fiasco, votes deliverance. Now voting deliverance isnt really scummy, but Kokusho actually categorizes it as if Deliv could be mafia from his actions, which is rather weird (no one else voted or FOSed Deliv for being mafia, rather for being a total jerk.).
Meanwhile, it should be noted others have FOSed deliv and/or voted him at this point, and kokusho is pretty much the last to do so.
This is Kokusho's first long post. After the deliverance fiasco, he goes back to random voting, voting the same person. Is this scummy? I dont really think so as his 2nd paragraph makes clear the 1st is almost a joke. Random voting the same person twice could be just due to a joke between the two people, or just a vote kokusho likes due to looking at previous games. Its rather hard to tell.
FOSes Rahl for voting himself. Nothing much so far....
Now whats interesting is Kokusho has fingered 3 people. Deliv (which couldve been easily ignored), FOSed Rahl, and voted diggy out of randomness. KCW's accusation should be easily defendable. But instead he claims "Someone has to start conversation."
Like the deliv vote, Kokusho presents us with a serious reason here for something that really shouldnt mean anything at all. Very Strange behavior.
INCONSISTANCY ALERT. Wow, Id completely missed this. Above he says that Deliverance's trouble in plain sight could be a sign of mafia (or at least implies it). Now he mentions that he voted deliv cuz he made the game unfun? This is a clear inconsistancy from the above quote.
This right here is our first scum tell on Kokusho (Inconsitancies with vote reasoning is a strong scum tell).
In response to Cyan about whether mafia has strategy or not.
Defends himself from deliv vote again. This was after the Tuatha accusation by me, but no comment on it by kokusho at this point.
Nothing to see here, bizarre reaction to an accusation at Tuatha that was nothing but civil compared to earlier parts of this game.
Random comment here that has no significance to the game. Kokusho seems to make a bit of these.
A comment on my rahl logic, but NO Fos or Vote on the matter. Kokusho has been relatively quiet with FOSes and votes since his unvote earlier.
With 5 FOSes on me, and only 2 on Rahl, Kokusho FOSes me despite saying that both of us are using crazy logic. Its almost seems like a bandwagoning FOS, and its his first FOS since he was accused of trying to start a bandwagon.
See, Kokusho's been doing this all game. He's been making little posts to let people know he's here, but having so little content in them that he really isnt saying ANYTHING at all! It seems like he's desperately trying to avoid being called a lurker, but is trying to lurk all the same.
Once again says let me sleep in response to accusations, and points a finger away from himself.
-------------------
Kokusho's PBPA shows one glaring inconsistancy, and he's way too serious with certain votes and FOSes. Not to mention the fact that since he was accused the first time, he has been pretty contentless in his posts, and only FOSed one person (me) after i had 5 FOSes already. Meanwhile, in the same vote that he FOSed me, he thinks Rahl is just as crazy as me, but doesnt FOS Rahl (who only has 2 FOSes on him).
That deliv inconsistancy is just too much for me. I have to Unvote.
Vote Kokusho for all that ive outlined.
FOS Lord Rahl, Im still in the mindset you are mafia.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
I agree that inconsistencies in reasoning are a strong scum tell, but am unsure how inconsistant Koko is actually being here. Saying deli is a "trouble maker hiding in plain sight" implies that deli could be mafia, but all it actually says is that deli was a trouble maker. Trouble makers (in this context, as context is important) could also be people who piss off the mods or break the rules of the game. These people do make the game unfun, as koko's next vote justification gives. So I can see how his second comment follows very easilly from his first comment, and is therefore not inconsistent.
I dunno, I see the logic you're using, but I think it craplogic.
This is the part that gets me. Both Koko and Diggy have been doing this. Koko has been making more contentless posts, whereas Diggy is just plain lurking. Contentless posts seems an effort to disguise something, while lurking seems less of such an effort. I'm slightly suspicious of Diggy too, but I am suspicious of Koko, not for what Loran thinks is an inconsistency (but which I do not think is an inconsistency), but for his habit of posting nothing and passing that off as not lurking.
Unvote. I am not completely satisfied with Tuatha's explanation, because I would have felt better if it was in Tuatha's own words rather than just referencing someone else's post. However, that's not enough to warrent a FOS or vote in my opinion. I would appreciate your own words next time though Tuatha.
Also, UnFOS All just in case I have more than one going...
Vote Kokusho
see above for justification
the reasons this time have nothing to do with the reasons I voted him last time I voted him (back at the end of random stage), by the way.
players we haven't heard much from (as far as content of posts goes, not number of posts):
Athos (has promised some thoughts)
Kokoshu
Diggy
KCW
-fadeblue- Action confirmed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Hooga has been killed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Hooga was a Vigilante (town)
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|HuntedCharlie has been killed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|HuntedCharlie was a Bodyguard (town)
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Xylthixlm has been killed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Xylthixlm was a Vigilante (town)
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Game over! Winners: (mafia)fullversion+
"I know nothing of the law, only vengence" -Dom, U/G madness
I've just gone through the thread and updated all of my notes. I want to sit and let it simmer for a little while, but right now these are my top concers:
loran16 - He's been using entirely too much WIFOM and crap logic in his posts.
kops723 - He's posted absolutely no content until post #169 and that one was full of appeals to emotion to justify his arguments. As well there was a particularly egregious directive to the cop at the end of the post that is a huge nono.
Moreover both have suddenly jumped on a previously non-existent Kokusho wagon with no real reason.
I'm just bloody unhappy with both of them right now.
I need to stew on this for a little while and see if I may need to place a vote here. Expect more in the morning.
1. random voting the same guy and not bandwagoning
2. Not saying I didn't like a guy when he was in game
3. Not being able to say much.
I'm sorry I can't analize that well but its 11:00 at night when I post mostly and I'm new at this game.
Loran's logic is rediculously bad. His main point falls and so does his case. If you look he was saying I'm not scummy when hes after lord rahl then when he sense the bandwagon changing he hops over.
"I know nothing of the law, only vengence" -Dom, U/G madness
The votecount for Kokusho stands at 4.
Early Morning Votecount:
Cyan (1) - KCW
Athos (1) - Athos
Diggy (2) - Diggy, Mosschop
Loran16 (3) - Cyan, Lord rahl, kokusho
Kokusho (4) - Tuatha, kops, loran16, hooga
FOS List:
Kokusho - 2x Tuatha
loran16 - Lord rahl, Cyan, Mosschop, Tuatha, kokusho
Tuatha - Lord rahl
Lord rahl - Mosschop, Tuatha, loran16
hooga - kops
With 11 in, a majority vote requires 6 to lynch!
0 player/s are currently not voting!
Buy from me on TCGPlayer::Twitter::Flickr
Early Morning Votecount:
Cyan (1) - KCW
Athos (1) - Athos
Diggy (1) - Mosschop
Loran16 (3) - Cyan, Lord rahl, kokusho
Kokusho (5) - Tuatha, kops, loran16, hooga, Diggy
FOS List:
Kokusho - 2x Tuatha
loran16 - Lord rahl, Cyan, Mosschop, Tuatha, kokusho
Tuatha - Lord rahl
Lord rahl - Mosschop, Tuatha, loran16
hooga - kops
With 11 in, a majority vote requires 6 to lynch!
0 player/s are currently not voting!
Buy from me on TCGPlayer::Twitter::Flickr
-fadeblue- Action confirmed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Hooga has been killed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Hooga was a Vigilante (town)
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|HuntedCharlie has been killed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|HuntedCharlie was a Bodyguard (town)
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Xylthixlm has been killed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Xylthixlm was a Vigilante (town)
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Game over! Winners: (mafia)fullversion+
@ Athos, your comment on Kops. Admittedly, he hasn't posted much content before his post #169, but he's certainly posted more than, well, youself (not attacking you or anything). For example, in post #122 Kops was the 1st person to bring to attention Loran's Unvote/Revote habit.
Anyhow, I also don't see how his post was just an emotional appeal. The emotional parts were his FOS of me, and his justification for his logic ("put myself in the place of the person"). However, even though he has this emotional system of starting his logic, the logic itself is sound - he basically says (I'm paraphrasing) that scum won't act so obviously aggressive as loran has been doing (I believe I termed it suicidal in one of my posts)
And at his directive to the cop, I've actually seen a lot of that kind of reasoning/directions on games on this site, particularilly past newb games - "if x gets lynched, the cop should investigate y" and such arguments. I personally don't agree with giving any of the town power roles directions, but I can see how Kops especially would attempt that, since he's played in newb games on this site before (newb 6 I believe, which had quite few of those directions in it).
-fadeblue- Action confirmed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Hooga has been killed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Hooga was a Vigilante (town)
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|HuntedCharlie has been killed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|HuntedCharlie was a Bodyguard (town)
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Xylthixlm has been killed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Xylthixlm was a Vigilante (town)
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Game over! Winners: (mafia)fullversion+
oh, and Unvote FOS Kokusho until Kokusho claims for now.
@Athos. Im never sure about kops, but he was at time real emotional in his last game, so im not sure about that as a tell. As for leading the cop, well, thats a scummy move true. I dont know what to say on that one.
@also at Athos, Is my PBPA on Kokusho Craplogic?
@Hooga, Explain these two things to me:
A. Kokusho's reasoning for his vote on Deliverance WAS NOT that he was making the game unfun. It was that he seemed like a troublemaker "hiding in plain sight." Why use those words? Other people had already voted Deliv or suggested to do so because the game was not fun. Kokusho's reasoning was actually that he could be mafia! Of course he later changed his reasoning, which is the inconsistancy.
B. You defend Kokusho's inconsistancy, and then you vote him in the same post. Curious......
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
I thought that whole idea of the game was to lynch people that you suspect are scum. Why, then, would you unvote someone? Even if Kokusho is scum, there's no way for him to prove that he's not. He can't just say 'yeah I'm a townie kkthx'. For one, that seems like it would violate the spirit of the game if it were true, and for two, why would anyone believe him anyway. Not that I think he's scum. I actually don't. Loran's PBPA of Kokusho left alot to be desired, I thought. Yeah, Kokusho had some inconsistency..but only a little, and his actions don't seem nearly as scummy as Lorans. I think that Loran16 has, once again, taken advantage of another player's situation to shift the attention from himself and onto someone else. As I said before, anytime that Loran conceivably can say that someone is scum, he does so. This is the third time that this has happened. But this time, it seems like he realized that people jumped on the bandwagon because of his post, and now he wants off. Why? Because he is scum, and knows that Kokusho is not scum, and knows that, if Kokusho gets lynched, people will come after him immediately for, more or less, cementing the vote against Kokusho.
I also find it suspicious that Hooga defends Kokusho, and then votes for him anyway. Honestly, I think that he's just intimidated by Loran and doesn't want to vote for him, lest Loran turn his attention to him instead. This seems like a really weak action to me, though not actually scummy...just lame. Although, again, it casts a bad light on Loran.
So right now, Unvoting when we're at one vote a way from a lynch is very NOT scummy, because kokusho is well aware that he has to claim his role right now.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Aside from that, why would we believe him? It seems far too easy to just claim to be a townie, regardless of what role(s) are available. If you're about to lose anyway, mise well just lie, right? If a person is about to get lynched and claims to be the Cop, is the real Cop going to just come out and disprove them? I should hope not, since that would make the Cop role pointless anyway, as they'd just get constantly roleblocked. This really doesn't make any sense to me, whatsoever.
unFoS all, FoS Cyan
Cyan, first of all in your second situtation, if he claims cop, the real cop should come and claim. Even if the town lynches wrong it will lynch right the next day, As a 1 for 1 trade is GOOD for the town since mafia are always outnumbered to start.
And Cyan, claiming is quite useful. Take for example Seinfeld mafia. I was possbily going to be lynched day 1, but I claimed Jerry Seinfeld. As such, the town backed off, as jerry seinfeld was quite unlikely to be mafia. Now given, this theme is of a really random show that there are little to no roles i can think of whose names would automatically clear kokusho, but it still is something that is normally done.
Also Cyan, if kokusho claims cop and isnt cop, when the real cop claims, the doc will protect the cop from thereon.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
We don't automatically believe him if he were to claim, rather we analyze whether his claim makes sense based on the game's context and his previous actions.
What we want from Kokusho is a claim of his role (or so much as he wants to reveal), but especially to claim a character role that makes sense with his game role.
I suggest you read other games on this site some, claiming is an integral part of mafia.
I'm going to address these points together, since the "defends then votes for him" part is the same. What I was doing in the first part of my post (addressing Loran's "inconsistency" argument) was dismantling what I think is craplogic. We must determine between bad arguments against someone and the actual arguments against them, hence why I disagree with the inconsistency argument.
I then point out and agree with other points made against Kokusho, mainly his lurking and his contentless posts, which is why I voted for him. These I consider good arguments.
If you see my refuting of Loran's inconsistency logic as a defence of Koko, it wasn't meant as such, it was meant as an attack on craplogic. I consider it important to sort bad logic from good logic, and weigh the good logic points when deciding my vote.
Refuting bad logic against someone doesn't remove the suspicions caused good logic on them.
As for your other point Loran:
Koko implies what you said, but extremely weakly, and his statement about about "troublemaker" is open to interpretation. You can't simply interpret it as Koko meant mafia, because troublemakers are also people who ruin games.
-fadeblue- Action confirmed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Hooga has been killed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Hooga was a Vigilante (town)
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|HuntedCharlie has been killed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|HuntedCharlie was a Bodyguard (town)
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Xylthixlm has been killed
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Xylthixlm was a Vigilante (town)
<fadeblue> MAFIABOT|Game over! Winners: (mafia)fullversion+
Well here's where i disagree. You can say that Deliv is a troublemaker, fine! No one is arguing that.
BUt saying you're voting deliv because hes a troublemaker or hes making the game not fun, you wouldnt say:
he seemed like a troublemaker "hiding in plain sight
This last line makes NO SENSE in your interpretation!
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
I'm not eager to see a townie get lynched. I just fail to understand the logic behind 'lets make someone look like the bad guy, but then back off when they're about to get lynched'. It just doesn't seem like anything can ever happen in this game. 1 step forward, 2 steps back, as the saying goes. I understand that one townie doesn't want to lynch another townie, because that's how you lose the game. I just don't see how anything gets accomplished if people vote for a person then just as quickly unvote.
Diggy: Yeah, I know that people lie..what does that have to do with anything?
Loran:
A: WHY should the real cop come and claim? It really seems like that is just cheating, to be honest. I could see if the real cop responded and helped convince people that the person was lying, but, to simply say 'You can't be the cop because I am the cop' seems ridiculous. If that person can prove that they're the cop, they're essentially immune to the lynch. Can the Mafia actually win this game?
Hooga:
I agree with Loran that Kokusho was inconsistent. Randomly voting for someone seems fine. But saying that you're voting for a person because they're a trouble maker hiding in plain sight is not the same as voting randomly, nor is it the same as voting for them because they 'make the game not fun'. To say they're a troublemaker implies some kind of in game role playing, to say they're just making the game not fun is more of a personal attack on them. It's definetely inconsistent..though I don't think it's enough so to make Kokusho scum, I think Loran was just bandwagoning.
Alot of the 'logic' in this game still doesn't make sense to me. It seems as though the game itself grossly favors the town to win, and that's really not very much fun.
Second of all, the town is not favored because a good mafia member is able to A. Come up with a good false claim (they don't say their real names) and B. Because of this, its hard to tell when a real townie says their name if its a townie name or not. Mafia is a game of detecting lies in claims, as well as detecting hints of scumminess in the other players.
Meanwhile, if there is a role blocker (no guarentee of this), the cop can be held neutralized, so the town is not greatly favored by the cop revealing himself. Furthermore, when the doc is killed, the cop is no longer immune to night kills. But the game is normally set up (barring an extreme set up) that a 1 for 1 trade (if mafia claims cop, is counterclaimed, and both players are neutralized) is in favor for the town. This means that the mafia cannot just simply claim Cop and Doc to lure out power roles, preventing them from having an unfair advantage.
-------
Im still waiting on a kokusho name claim.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
umm excuse me... i was the first one to vote him (i dont count tuatha b/c that was a long time ago and not part of the wagon) I DID NOT JUMP ON ANY WAGON, not only that, but i outlined my reasons more than enough to warrant a vote, thirdly, as has already been said, i've posted way more content than you even before that post, oh one whos still voting himself... and finally, i have no idea what emotional appeal youre talking about, i just said i had a gut about hooga which is perfectly legal for me to say, honestly... fos athos for using the worst craplogic so far this game (and that is saying something)
anyway, on a non-ticked off/defensive note, @Cyan, we dont want to lynch kokusho yet because he just claimed power role (for the most part)... therefore what good would it do to the town to have him sitting at 5 votes??? there is nothing wrong with unvoting him at this point
well, i guess there isnt much to do right now other than wait for kokusho, but since im pretty sure ill end up doing this once he claims anyway, unvote major fos kokusho
EBWODP
Don't Click the link. It could screw your computer. I copied and pasted the name so I would not misspell it. Please fade get out of hyperlink if it is allowed.
"I know nothing of the law, only vengence" -Dom, U/G madness
Okay, we have a copclaim..., If someone else out there is the cop please counter-claim him. The doc will protect you, and getting a scum killed day 1 is worth possibly being role blocked for a while.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
"I know nothing of the law, only vengence" -Dom, U/G madness
And in that episode that website forced pop ups and advertisements into the lives of the aqua teens, forcing them to move out of hte house to get away from the ads (though it didnt work, somehow the adds followed them).
So your role name is skeptical (though its hard to tell from role names as i said before...almost everyone has a reason to hate the ATHF in some episode of the show).
So If someone else is the real cop, please claim now....
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
"I know nothing of the law, only vengence" -Dom, U/G madness
I tried. Look at lorans logic. Its really bad. People followed it. I really tried.
EBWODP
Ok flavor. How can a website kill someone? It can't. How can a website be a cop. Spy programs. No one will claim cop because I am the cop. Now you know what that means. Someone is going to get lynched. And right now I'm thinking you.
"I know nothing of the law, only vengence" -Dom, U/G madness
THeres not a single character in ATHF which can realisticly kill a person. The website brings up pop up windows in their house, not on the computer, in the show which fill their house leaving them no room to live and thus they flee ot the jungle. At the end of the episode however, the popup adds start coming up in the jungle as well.
Obviously, im not cop or id counterclaim you. Id like to wait for the rest of the town to wake up and post "not cop" or "cop" before doing anything.
EBWODP. Okay, Cyan, if you are the cop, and you are giving off STRONG signs that you are in my mind, please counterclaim kokusho. We're not going to lynch a claimed cop otherwise.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity