Am I the only person who thinks that this is hilarious?
Bateleur-are your win conditions the standard Mafia and Town win conditions? Or is there something else there?
Because you have both conditions? And because of this, what do you gain from going out into the open? You're just making yourself look lynchable.
Bateleur's claim at least means that there's a vigilante for the Town, because there's no other way that he could be killed by a townie that I can think of.
Possibly...or both of them could be Townies. Think about it-if a townie killed a townie (in a vigilante sense), it could give a townie a reason to go mafia. Alternatively, if a townie was killed by the Mafia, the townie would have reason to side with the Town.
Not necessarily. I think the first is more likely, because the two roles mentioned don't seem like SKs.
This is interesting, because that would give us a logical Mafia grouping. I personally haven't heard of that episode. Were there only four characters? Because then AI would have to expand the reach. Could that help us define the characters?
Also, we can probably assume that Jerry Seinfeld is a townie. Are there any characters that may carry grudges against him?
Errr,
Quote from numerous seinfeld episodes »
Hello Jerry
</really angrily> Hellow NEWMAN.
This is why I suspect Newman as the SK. The only other possibliity i think of would be The Soup Nazi, who could also make an interesting SK.
As for that episode ive gone back and checked it out and it is a season 8 episode called the Bizarro Jerry. There are only four bizarro characters that I can remember and when i just double checked I only found 4 guest stars with bizarro names.
Of course, if we assume that both Mr. and Mrs. Costansas are neutrals with the possiblitiy to turn to each side, we could have a set up with 12 Townies, 4 Mafia, 2 Neutrals with the possiblity to flip (Bateleur and mrs costanza), and an SK.
That would be balenced as well.
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
That setup seems fair, but I still think there would be a fifth mafia. Also, games usually don't have multiple neutrals. I can see one of them being Neutral, but having both Costansas as Neutral seems fairly unlikely. I think that Mrs. Costansa has only one win condition. Otherwise, this game would constitute abnormal.
I guess I can see Newman as an SK, although considering how Jerry treats Newman, I would see him equally likely as a Mafia. I doubt there's enough information to define that right now.
loran, out of curiousity, do you have some role requirement the states you have to post so frequently?
Quote from loran16 »
Hmm, Two things here Xim/Sash, first either bat is false claiming so as not to be lynched (and knows there is no ms or mr constanza,) or you just made yourself super suspicous due to voting for someone after THAT claim. And since the Costanzas are probably the most prominent guest character in the show (well, is newman a guest character?) It would make sense that Mr. Costanza, at the least would be in the game.
Of course Mr. Costanza isnt the most right of heart person, but he is generally noble hearted and concerned for his public reputation. So i doubt hes mafia.
FoS Ximbad/Musashi. While i still think DYH is more likely scum, voting for bat is a BAD IDEA after that claim.
loran, even if you are convinced that Bat is a townie it is a better play not answer questions put to other players. They are more then capable of answering for themselves and by your putting forth information/explainations that maybe completely wrong or off the point we, the town, lose the opportunity to see the interaction between the person who asked the question and the person they asked it of. Valuable information and interaction between the two may never be presented because of your interruption.
Quote from bateleur »
I am Mr. Constanza. I know for certain that both George and Mrs. Constanza are also in the game. Currently, I have both Town and Mafia win conditions. But... if any Town player kills one of the above two characters, I become Mafia and lose the town win condition. Similarly, if any Mafia player kills one of the two characters in question I become Town and lose the Mafia win condition.
bateleur, you state you know that these roles are in the game. Do you also know who the players are that have these roles?
Quote from loran16 »
Quote from bateleur »
That's very flattering, but doesn't exactly work. Supposing I'm still alive at that point in the game I say "Look, let's lynch X", at which point you have presumably not forgotten the foregoing discussion and say "Nah, let's let someone else pick the targets Mr. Constanza".
Besides, the town has other analysts better than I am... unless they're all Mafia !
Err Puzzle and Azrael are both not in this game Bat. So I dont know who you're thinking of.
Of course I still have no idea who we should vote for at this point.
I'm still rediculously suspicous of DYH, but my proof is obv not good enough for an obvious lynch.
-------------------
FOS DYH.
I also happen to believe you are a very good analyst bat. You and several other very good analysts in this game.
loran16 why exactly do you wish bat to reveal who the analysts in the game are?
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loran, out of curiousity, do you have some role requirement the states you have to post so frequently?
loran, even if you are convinced that Bat is a townie it is a better play not answer questions put to other players. They are more then capable of answering for themselves and by your putting forth information/explainations that maybe completely wrong or off the point we, the town, lose the opportunity to see the interaction between the person who asked the question and the person they asked it of. Valuable information and interaction between the two may never be presented because of your interruption.
bateleur, you state you know that these roles are in the game. Do you also know who the players are that have these roles?
I also happen to believe you are a very good analyst bat. You and several other very good analysts in this game.
loran16 why exactly do you wish bat to reveal who the analysts in the game are?
Errr, I didnt ask that? I guess that can be interpreted from my statement, but i was just saying that Of all the people in here, No offense any1, but from the threads ive been in i thought Bat would be the most exp and best analyst in here.
And im sorry for answering a question meant fora notehr person. Sorry bout that hawkeye.
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Hawkeye, I believe that Loran said that he is required to vote for himself and bring his ability forward for it to work. But I'm not entirely sure.
Could you clarify that, Loran?
Hawkeye, I believe that Loran said that he is required to vote for himself and bring his ability forward for it to work. But I'm not entirely sure.
Could you clarify that, Loran?
Err what? Who said i need to vote for myself. I "voted for myself" (my votes dont count remember), to start the calling attention to myself. As for calling attention to myself, yes i did need to do so. That went over real well <sigh>
I dont even think hawkeye mentioned that though. WHere did hawkeye ask about this?
NINJA EDIT Previewing is tech
NINJA EDIT 2: Err ah i see. No i just have little better to do sometimes. I did need to call attention to myself, but the mod has assured me thta i have done all i need to do at this point. Sorry if im posting too much at this point.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Okay...and you say your ability is stunted. Why would you have a crippled character with a weak ability, especially when he's Jerry Seinfeld?
I forgot who said it in this game, but Seinfeld is a show about nothing. The point is its about no specific premise and just follows the crazyness fo the four main characters. I suppose its ironic that in a show about nothing, Seinfeld can do nothing specific (voting wise) for the town during the day.
In fact they actually have an episode on the show where jerry and george pitch a "show about nothing" to NBC execs, mocking Jerry and Larry David's own pitching process to NBC.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Errr, I didnt ask that? I guess that can be interpreted from my statement, but i was just saying that Of all the people in here, No offense any1, but from the threads ive been in i thought Bat would be the most exp and best analyst in here.
And im sorry for answering a question meant fora notehr person. Sorry bout that hawkeye.
So, do you have a role requirement on the number or frequency of posts you make?
I'm not trying to bust your chops. I hope that my post didn't come acrossed that way.
If, by chance, the mafia are not aware of who the best analysists are, we should not point them out to them.
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Fine, I guess I can buy that. Although you could assign that definition to any sitcom. Because we have about twenty people, though, you would think that the main characters would have significant roles. So why don't you?
Fine, I guess I can buy that. Although you could assign that definition to any sitcom. Because we have about twenty people, though, you would think that the main characters would have significant roles. So why don't you?
Actually, Xyre, Seinfeld is specifically a show about nothing. Other sit-coms may have that feel, mainly because they suck and pale in comparison, but truly, as loran has alluded to, that is the premise of Seinfeld.
I'm not at all shocked by loran's ability being "stunted", honestly, as it does seem he's legitimately Jerry Seinfeld. (I'm too tired to look back and ensure that *everyone* has posted since the claim, I'll do that in the morning) Considering the show, this makes sense.
Bat, bat, bat. That sure is a nice situation you've set up for yourself. Kinda reminds me of the neutral claim I had suggested for Day 6 in WD2 to force the town not to vote me since the town was going to be in a lynch-or-lose. (As fate would have it, we didn't need day 6 to win ) In any event, it also looks eerily similar to a role claimed in another game I can't speak about. Extremely, extremely suspicious, given it's "busted" nature, and I wonder what the town thinks about fielding for whether or not Mrs. Costanza is in the game to validate. (I think it's safe to assume George is) What do you think of that?
Indeed, it would seem that the best play for Mrs. Costanza would be to self-reveal as well, assuming that the role functions in the same way. Then both of you would be in the same position of being essentially unkillable. On the other hand, if one of you must be non-town, the one who hides the longest would be under more suspicion. But no one has come forward as Mrs. Costanza yet. So what does that mean?
The most logical conclusions (that I see so far) are:
1) The person has not yet checked in since your claim.
2) The person is non-town and believes it's better to never come forward than to risk playing WIFOM.
3) The person does not have the same "flopping" role that you have.
We can test #1 by waiting for everyone to at least post again since your claim. If still no one has come forward, then we consider #2 and #3. You were already aware of the possibility of #2 (the other being non-town, and perhaps even neutral). But then why come forward if you admit it's more likely? Sure, the town and the Mafia can't kill you, but if you think it's more likely there's a neutral out there (particularly if it's one of the other Costanzas), you've basically said, "Hey kill me!"
And what about #3? Would it make sense that Mr. Constanza would "flop" but not Mrs. Costanza, and yet both are still town? I'd say it's possible, but it seems like more of a stretch. Unless someone can provide a logical reason for that kind of asymmetry, I would rule that likely to not be the case.
bat, what is your guess as to the likelihood that Mrs. Costanza is not town?
One last point - bat says he came forward because it'll protect George and Mrs. Costanza. But that point is moot unless both of them come forward, since we would be in the same situation as when we didn't have his role information. So bat is actually counting on both of those roles to claim. Doesn't that seem potentially fishy? Sure, he may truly want to protect them, but could it also be possible that he needs to identify them for some other purpose?
Sure, they have the Mafia win condition, but it would probably be easier for these characters to go Town, because of the obvious gap between the Town and Mafia. If the Mafia knows this, they'll only keep them alive as long as the gap is in their favor. As soon as Mafia start dying, Costanza and George are essentially townies. And that's when they'll die, because their multiple win conditions are essentially negligible.
Keeping Mrs. Costanza in the dark will make it harder for the Mafia to hit someone else, and they may run the risk of hitting her instead. And in an early game, the Mafia wouldn't particularly like that.
If Mrs. Costanza comes forward, then George and Costanza are untouchables up to the point where they are liabilities for one side or the other. Then they're dead, by vig or by Mafia.
So I want to know this, bat: are you Town, Neutral, or Mafia? I'm going on the assumption that Costanza and George have the same alleigances, for the sake of the rules. So if you claim side, then we can piece together how this works.
For example: if Costanza and George are town, then they're almost unable to achieve the Mafia win condition, because they don't count toward the Mafia count. So a Mafia wouldn't care if they lived anyway.
So I think that they're either both neutral, or one's Town, one's Mafia, for consistency. I don't know enough about AI to predict what it is, but this seems to be a fair assumption.
I'm Bob Sacamano. Since I'm never seen in the show no one knows where to go to target me. I also have connections with all the characters and can figure stuff out so I'm a cop. Finally I was once in the hospital and was so pro I picked up how to be a doctor. Each night I can investigate some one protect someone and remain untargetable.
That last post has either made this the best or worst game of Mafia ever. I can't really tell.
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Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, the wisdom to know the difference, and a ****ing chainsaw.
Fine, I guess I can buy that. Although you could assign that definition to any sitcom. Because we have about twenty people, though, you would think that the main characters would have significant roles. So why don't you?
I mean i do have an ability (I believe I've claimed that), but as to why im so restricted despite it not being an awesome insane ability, i can think of two reasons.
The first is that Maybe the host wants some major roles to have less than powerful abilities, so that a scum can claim a major role? (I doubt this one, but idk).
The second is that you didnt quite understand me. Whille you could technically apply the "Show about nothing" moniker to a few new sitcoms, with Seinfeld it was groundbreaking. Imagine going up to an official saying, I propose a show about nothing. It really is insane. Seinfed is the 1st.
Which is why I, Jerry Seinfeld, have really a not too significant role, even with my ability. Of course, my ability relates to Seinfeld's occupation of a stand up comedian, but id prefer NOT TO reveal it yet.
Errr pardon the double post, didnt see chambers mod but since its significant i feel i have to reply.....
WHAT THE HELL WAS THAT CLAIM! Why on earth would you do that Chamber, why would you vote yourself, and why on earth do you think wed believe you to be both doc and cop.
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
That last post has either made this the best or worst game of Mafia ever. I can't really tell.
I actually imagine its somewhere inbetween.
Quote from loran16 »
Errr pardon the double post, didnt see chambers mod but since its significant i feel i have to reply.....
WHAT THE HELL WAS THAT CLAIM! Why on earth would you do that Chamber, why would you vote yourself, and why on earth do you think wed believe you to be both doc and cop.
FOS Chamber. That was weird.
Why? That's for you to figure out. And did you really need to double post?
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, the wisdom to know the difference, and a ****ing chainsaw.
Actually, chambers post looks almost like a parody of some1 else's post near the beginning of the game...
Are you trying to implicate me? I only name-claimed after being under 5 votes at one point, and only mentioned not having a vote.
And if Chamber is trying to mock my tactics, then he is very much not being productive.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
---------------------------------------------
10 to lynch..
-------------- LORAN'S HAPPY-FUN-TIME FOS COUNT
DYH
Chamber
-----------------------
-Alpha
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Quote from TheFooFish »
Lies! -I'm Buffy Summers, town tracker. I used my ability on you and saw that you didn't use any abilities before the game started. My flavor is I was sucked through a mysterious space-time portal and I'm here to kill all the vampires, and my tracking ability is a combination of my Slayer and Native American skills.
---------------------------------------------
10 to lynch..
-------------- LORAN'S HAPPY-FUN-TIME FOS COUNT
DYH
Chamber
-----------------------
-Alpha
Well, I think we can clear Chamber of being mafia, and assume that he is a multi voter with some special activation restriction that requires a strange post (maybe a target of himself?)
I somehow doubt that the Mafia would get a multi-voter, or that he would use his ability this early. So i think ill UnFOS Chamber.
Claims list so far:
Chamber: Multi Voter. Bizarre Claim that is weird.
Loran16: Jerry Seinfeld. Unexplained ability, Unable to vote, unable to get doc protection, needs to draw attention to himself.
Bat: Mr. Costanza (Jerry Stiller)Neutral player with both maf and town win conditions, and turns mafia or townie depending on if certain players are killed.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Okay, IN my mind there is ONE person in the show who would fit the crazyness that Chamber had to do, and would make sense as a multivoter.
(Cosmo) Kramer. SO my guess is Chamber is indeed one of the four main characters, as Kramer. Kramers' crazyness and insanity would make his activation of his ability make sense, and he is so crazy and random that multivoting makes sense.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Okay, IN my mind there is ONE person in the show who would fit the crazyness that Chamber had to do, and would make sense as a multivoter.
(Cosmo) Kramer. SO my guess is Chamber is indeed one of the four main characters, as Kramer. Kramers' crazyness and insanity would make his activation of his ability make sense, and he is so crazy and random that multivoting makes sense.
Hmm thanks Chamber for confirming your momentary crazyiness was an activation cost or restriction of your multivoting ability. And I may still think you're kramer, but afraid to claim so since you're afraid of being night killed. Of course, you're already a target for the mafia as a multivoter, and a bigger target for an SK. So I doubt a claim would hurt.
Just uh, be a little careful with that abiltiy.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Bateleur-are your win conditions the standard Mafia and Town win conditions?
They're standard.
Quote from HAWKEYE7 »
bateleur, you state you know that these roles are in the game. Do you also know who the players are that have these roles?
Nope.
Quote from fadeblue »
if you think it's more likely there's a neutral out there (particularly if it's one of the other Costanzas), you've basically said, "Hey kill me!"
So ? Unless I misunderstand the basic rules of Mafia, my win parameters are still the same if I die. (I can't find this written down anywhere, but I believe it's the case in general, no ?)
Quote from fadeblue »
bat, what is your guess as to the likelihood that Mrs. Costanza is not town?
Who knows ? I don't think she'd be Mafia for reasons previously stated. I have no way to assess the likelihood of her being Neutral beyond information which I have already passed on.
Quote from fadeblue »
So bat is actually counting on both of those roles to claim.
Not at all. I mean yeah, that'd be great for me, but my position is no worse now than pre-claim even if neither of them do.
Quote from fadeblue »
Sure, he may truly want to protect them, but could it also be possible that he needs to identify them for some other purpose?
That possibility has to be considered in the light of my rolename, though. At this point I would've thought that my rolename is more-or-less definitely correct. Wikipedia tells me very little about my relationship with George except that I "dominate" him. That doesn't make it sound like I'd want to kill him. Maybe someone who actually knows the show could tell us more ?
Quote from Xyre »
So I want to know this, bat: are you Town, Neutral, or Mafia?
Neutral. Isn't this rather an academic distinction given that I've told you my entire role ?
Quote from loran16 »
Well, I think we can clear Chamber of being mafia
Probably - but be careful ! AlphaIndisious played in WD2 Mafia where the game kinda hinged on this assertion. Detailed arguments were presented for why Mafia can be mutivoters, so he might have included one for variety. (Short summary: it makes the Mafia stronger, but is not completely broken.)
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Well, things have been busy here. Lots of reading, lots of craziness, lots of roleclaims.
On bat's claim: well I have no real problem with it at this time.
On loran's claim:
Name: Main character. No counter-claim. Not clear. Doesn't really tell us much.
Ability: Not claimed, but hinted strongly at. Doesn't want doc protection. If I'm thinking of the right ability, I have no clue why he can't vote.
On chamber: I don't know why you did that, but whatever.
Okay. there has been so much posted that I am a bit flabbergasted. There is however one thing that really stands out to me about bateleurs claim - being someone who is recognised as a skilled player he is entirely capable of the same thinking as I am.
There is a lot of advantage for the mafia for bateleur to be making this claim.
1. They know who not to kill. Bat - as he is on there side (for the time being at least [if the claim ]))
2. They
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After rethinking things, I'm starting to suspect that Bat's a SK, and he's completely lying about his role.
There are just too many paradoxes in his claim. One is that, if he dies right now, he wins the game no matter who (except for neutrals) wins.
Also, as was pointed out earlier, what happens if George is killed by one faction and Mrs. C by the other?
Thirdly, as this role has been public for awhile now, why hasn't George or Mrs. C claimed yet? It would seem to be their best strategy--making it so neither side wants to kill them.
For these reasons, Vote: bat.
Oh, also, if bateleur's telling the truth, he shouldn't mind being lynched (as he wins with whoever wins), and no faction should mind lynching him (as he's not really on anyone's side). Right?
Sorry about that. I just lost all my typing AGAIN. I am the worst typist in the world.
Here is what I wanted to say.
Bateleurs claim is a little suss and a BIG risk on his part.
1. Knowing who not to kill is an advantage for the mafia (this could expand to another two known characters (the other Costaza's).
2. It isn't clear whether lynching would be included in 'killing George or Mrs Costanza'. (if you know better bat please clarify)
3. If one of the Costanzas is accidently vigged (or lynched if it counts) bat becomes mafia. This is bad for the town as it creates a virtual No Lynch scenario for the town if we lynch him (the ordinary mafia got a free lynch and a night to do as they please). If we don't lynch him we potentially reduce all 'total votes to lynch' for the rest of the game by 1 as he can lurk and do nothing until the last vote on a wagon.
4. If he becomes town, we get a confirmed townie (always good). Except that it is bad for bat as it makes him an obvious target for the mafia to kill. Considering we already have Jerry Seinfeld revealed that is a big risk for him as that makes a really confusing decision for any potential docs to make - protect the protagonist (loran - with ability) or the other confirmed townie (bat - no further ability).
Actually I think that is a decision that would be quite easy to make as vanilla townie (which is what I understand bat would become) is worth less than even the smallest ability.
Any decision that is bad for bat would sort of contradict his reasoning for a reveal - keeping his odds as good as possible. Become known town would be bad for bat (unless there are more than one doc or the doc gets lucky)
These factors lead me to believe that bat's claim may be a calculated attempt to force a reveal of other characters. If so very clever. He may not have thought of the same things as I have either. I could also have missed something.
At this stage I will unvote as there are better things to discuss than Ximbad (I haven't forgotten you though:wink2:)
FoS bateleur because of the confusing mess he has created. If he is mafia then there has to be some ulterior motive for revealing the other two characters (like a need to kill the four protagonists maybe - george shouldn't reveal yet).
I would also suggest that Mrs Costanza shouldn't reveal yet either as there is a need to discuss further strategy regarding bateleurs role.
One is that, if he dies right now, he wins the game no matter who (except for neutrals) wins.
Whilst it admittedly isn't 100% clear, I rather doubt this. More likely, I require both of the others to live through to the endgame if I am to retain both victory conditions.
Quote from help im a bug »
Also, as was pointed out earlier, what happens if George is killed by one faction and Mrs. C by the other?
Depends which happens first.
Quote from help im a bug »
Thirdly, as this role has been public for awhile now, why hasn't George or Mrs. C claimed yet? It would seem to be their best strategy--making it so neither side wants to kill them.
You would think so, wouldn't you ? But at least two people have already speculated that I have ulterior motives for wanting to flush them out and there has also been some speculation that George might have other reasons for staying out of the public eye.
If there's a serious move to lynch me I'd expect at least Mrs Costanza to reveal herself before it happens. Otherwise if she roleclaims in the late game she's likely to be auto-lynched for having hurt the town. We haven't heard from all the players yet, so I'm still mostly waiting.
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bat - have you got any sort of response from what I have noted?
Not a great deal. I disagree with you about a number of strategic points, but there's little point me "correcting" you since such things are matters of opinion. Similarly, my view is that it's extremely obvious what lynches count as, but since I have no hard evidence I see no reason to speculate.
Also, I don't really see that my becoming a confirmed townie would be so bad for me. Yes, the Mafia might kill me, but Mafia kills always hit Townies anyway (since they know who is Mafia). As such, them killing someone completely vanilla is the best outcome for the Town and hence (by that point) the best outcome for me.
As with any Mafia game, if we have a vig it would be nice to think they wouldn't fire randomly into the crowd.
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Bateleurs claim is a little suss and a BIG risk on his part.
Nope, really can't see the risk here.
Quote from Passdog »
this could expand to another two known characters
Not really, because if they revealed themselves it would be name only. That doesn't tell the Mafia anything useful.
Considering we already have Jerry Seinfeld revealed that is a big risk for him as that makes a really confusing decision for any potential docs to make
Given that loran16 has already asked for no Doc protection I don't see the relevance. Also, suggesting policy to the Doc is scummy - don't do it.
These factors lead me to believe that bat's claim may be a calculated attempt to force a reveal of other characters. If so very clever.
If you think this then the best use of your time and effort is to work out what possible role I might have where this strategy makes sense.
Also, if that were my strategy it wouldn't be very clever. A very clever strategy is one that works without anyone so much as considering foiling it !
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With a bit more thought I can see that you really are making the most of your situation, and wouldn't see many risks (or at least the pay-off well exceeds any risk).
In all honesty, the only strategy I can currently concieve where you would benefit from a false claim like this would be if you desire one or all of the Costanzas dead for some reason. Doesn't mean that there isn't some other plan that you are working toward, just that I can't see it.
For Seinfeld buffs... do George and his family have any arch nemeses?
The other thing I wanted to know was do lynches count as a kill toward your change in alignment (if you know)?
I don't seem to recall any arch-nemesis for George and the Costanzas. The Costanzas always seemed to be competing with the Seinfelds (the parents). There was an episode about living in Florida and the Costanzas thought that the Seinfelds believed that they weren't good enough to live in Del Boca Vista.
I really don't think this has anything to do with the mafia in this game though. I find it very likely that we have four mafia who are the bizarro versions of Jerry, George, Kramer, and I don't remember a bizarro Newman, but it's been mentioned in the thread that there was one.
I knew I shouldn't have gotten into a second mafia game.
If there's a serious move to lynch me I'd expect at least Mrs Costanza to reveal herself before it happens. Otherwise if she roleclaims in the late game she's likely to be auto-lynched for having hurt the town. We haven't heard from all the players yet, so I'm still mostly waiting.
Well then, Bat, can you come up with a viable reason why we shouldn't put this pressure on to get her to name-claim?
Tell me Holmes, are you very dim or just... umm...
Sorry, I got nothing.
Joking apart, maybe if you could present some arguments for what your proposing, people might take you a bit more seriously.
Well then, Bat, can you come up with a viable reason why we shouldn't put this pressure on to get her to name-claim?
Not apart from the obvious one that she really ought to name claim without pressure.
Anyway, how do you pressurise an unknown player ?!
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DYH - just a question. What more info would you want bat to provide at this point? From what I tell, he couldn't possibly give us more information than he already has.
If there's a serious move to lynch me I'd expect at least Mrs Costanza to reveal herself before it happens.Otherwise if she roleclaims in the late game she's likely to be auto-lynched for having hurt the town. We haven't heard from all the players yet, so I'm still mostly waiting.
[quote=bateleur]Tell me Holmes, are you very dim or just... umm...
Sorry, I got nothing.
Joking apart, maybe if you could present some arguments for what your proposing, people might take you a bit more seriously.[quote]
What happens if it gets down to 3 town, 2 mafia, and you with both win conditions? Do we lose? If the answer is yes, you need to go.
Why don't we see who has not posted since bat's claim. Once everyone has posted, if nobody comes forward - then I think proceeding with bat would be an option. Until then, this is an agressive play at someone who has only been completely forthcoming (as far as I can tell) - perhaps a bit too forthcoming.
I don't think he's in any danger yet. This may just provide a little incentive for our lurker Mrs. Costanza (if she truly exists) to come out with the info. Frankly, though, having played scum with Bat, this brazen claim is something I could see him taking a gambit on. We'll see how it shakes out.
Note that it takes 10 to lynch. Anyone who actually takes this to a lynch without consulting the Town first should be vig meat (or tomorrow's lynch if there's no vig).
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[quote=bateleur]Tell me Holmes, are you very dim or just... umm...
Sorry, I got nothing.
Joking apart, maybe if you could present some arguments for what your proposing, people might take you a bit more seriously.[quote]
What happens if it gets down to 3 town, 2 mafia, and you with both win conditions? Do we lose? If the answer is yes, you need to go.
No, Holmes. He's neutral, so he doesn't count toward the Mafia. He just has the win. He wins when the Mafia wins.
Quote from DYH »
I don't think he's in any danger yet. This may just provide a little incentive for our lurker Mrs. Costanza (if she truly exists) to come out with the info. Frankly, though, having played scum with Bat, this brazen claim is something I could see him taking a gambit on. We'll see how it shakes out.
Quote from Bateleur »
DYH> Actually, that's a pretty neat plan...
Vote: bateleur
Note that it takes 10 to lynch. Anyone who actually takes this to a lynch without consulting the Town first should be vig meat (or tomorrow's lynch if there's no vig).
Quite a gambit, Bat. I really think that, if you aren't careful, this may backfire. Besides, a vig would have problems choosing from half-a-dozen bandwagoners.
But if you believe in this...sigh. I really don't want to Vote Bateleur, but it has to be done. I hope you know what you're doing...
Errr,
This is why I suspect Newman as the SK. The only other possibliity i think of would be The Soup Nazi, who could also make an interesting SK.
As for that episode ive gone back and checked it out and it is a season 8 episode called the Bizarro Jerry. There are only four bizarro characters that I can remember and when i just double checked I only found 4 guest stars with bizarro names.
Of course, if we assume that both Mr. and Mrs. Costansas are neutrals with the possiblitiy to turn to each side, we could have a set up with 12 Townies, 4 Mafia, 2 Neutrals with the possiblity to flip (Bateleur and mrs costanza), and an SK.
That would be balenced as well.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
That setup seems fair, but I still think there would be a fifth mafia. Also, games usually don't have multiple neutrals. I can see one of them being Neutral, but having both Costansas as Neutral seems fairly unlikely. I think that Mrs. Costansa has only one win condition. Otherwise, this game would constitute abnormal.
I guess I can see Newman as an SK, although considering how Jerry treats Newman, I would see him equally likely as a Mafia. I doubt there's enough information to define that right now.
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loran, even if you are convinced that Bat is a townie it is a better play not answer questions put to other players. They are more then capable of answering for themselves and by your putting forth information/explainations that maybe completely wrong or off the point we, the town, lose the opportunity to see the interaction between the person who asked the question and the person they asked it of. Valuable information and interaction between the two may never be presented because of your interruption.
bateleur, you state you know that these roles are in the game. Do you also know who the players are that have these roles?
I also happen to believe you are a very good analyst bat. You and several other very good analysts in this game.
loran16 why exactly do you wish bat to reveal who the analysts in the game are?
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Errr, I didnt ask that? I guess that can be interpreted from my statement, but i was just saying that Of all the people in here, No offense any1, but from the threads ive been in i thought Bat would be the most exp and best analyst in here.
And im sorry for answering a question meant fora notehr person. Sorry bout that hawkeye.
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Could you clarify that, Loran?
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Err what? Who said i need to vote for myself. I "voted for myself" (my votes dont count remember), to start the calling attention to myself. As for calling attention to myself, yes i did need to do so. That went over real well <sigh>
I dont even think hawkeye mentioned that though. WHere did hawkeye ask about this?
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NINJA EDIT 2: Err ah i see. No i just have little better to do sometimes. I did need to call attention to myself, but the mod has assured me thta i have done all i need to do at this point. Sorry if im posting too much at this point.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
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I forgot who said it in this game, but Seinfeld is a show about nothing. The point is its about no specific premise and just follows the crazyness fo the four main characters. I suppose its ironic that in a show about nothing, Seinfeld can do nothing specific (voting wise) for the town during the day.
In fact they actually have an episode on the show where jerry and george pitch a "show about nothing" to NBC execs, mocking Jerry and Larry David's own pitching process to NBC.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
So, do you have a role requirement on the number or frequency of posts you make?
I'm not trying to bust your chops. I hope that my post didn't come acrossed that way.
If, by chance, the mafia are not aware of who the best analysists are, we should not point them out to them.
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Actually, Xyre, Seinfeld is specifically a show about nothing. Other sit-coms may have that feel, mainly because they suck and pale in comparison, but truly, as loran has alluded to, that is the premise of Seinfeld.
I'm not at all shocked by loran's ability being "stunted", honestly, as it does seem he's legitimately Jerry Seinfeld. (I'm too tired to look back and ensure that *everyone* has posted since the claim, I'll do that in the morning) Considering the show, this makes sense.
Bat, bat, bat. That sure is a nice situation you've set up for yourself. Kinda reminds me of the neutral claim I had suggested for Day 6 in WD2 to force the town not to vote me since the town was going to be in a lynch-or-lose. (As fate would have it, we didn't need day 6 to win ) In any event, it also looks eerily similar to a role claimed in another game I can't speak about. Extremely, extremely suspicious, given it's "busted" nature, and I wonder what the town thinks about fielding for whether or not Mrs. Costanza is in the game to validate. (I think it's safe to assume George is) What do you think of that?
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The most logical conclusions (that I see so far) are:
1) The person has not yet checked in since your claim.
2) The person is non-town and believes it's better to never come forward than to risk playing WIFOM.
3) The person does not have the same "flopping" role that you have.
We can test #1 by waiting for everyone to at least post again since your claim. If still no one has come forward, then we consider #2 and #3. You were already aware of the possibility of #2 (the other being non-town, and perhaps even neutral). But then why come forward if you admit it's more likely? Sure, the town and the Mafia can't kill you, but if you think it's more likely there's a neutral out there (particularly if it's one of the other Costanzas), you've basically said, "Hey kill me!"
And what about #3? Would it make sense that Mr. Constanza would "flop" but not Mrs. Costanza, and yet both are still town? I'd say it's possible, but it seems like more of a stretch. Unless someone can provide a logical reason for that kind of asymmetry, I would rule that likely to not be the case.
bat, what is your guess as to the likelihood that Mrs. Costanza is not town?
One last point - bat says he came forward because it'll protect George and Mrs. Costanza. But that point is moot unless both of them come forward, since we would be in the same situation as when we didn't have his role information. So bat is actually counting on both of those roles to claim. Doesn't that seem potentially fishy? Sure, he may truly want to protect them, but could it also be possible that he needs to identify them for some other purpose?
Sure, they have the Mafia win condition, but it would probably be easier for these characters to go Town, because of the obvious gap between the Town and Mafia. If the Mafia knows this, they'll only keep them alive as long as the gap is in their favor. As soon as Mafia start dying, Costanza and George are essentially townies. And that's when they'll die, because their multiple win conditions are essentially negligible.
Keeping Mrs. Costanza in the dark will make it harder for the Mafia to hit someone else, and they may run the risk of hitting her instead. And in an early game, the Mafia wouldn't particularly like that.
If Mrs. Costanza comes forward, then George and Costanza are untouchables up to the point where they are liabilities for one side or the other. Then they're dead, by vig or by Mafia.
So I want to know this, bat: are you Town, Neutral, or Mafia? I'm going on the assumption that Costanza and George have the same alleigances, for the sake of the rules. So if you claim side, then we can piece together how this works.
For example: if Costanza and George are town, then they're almost unable to achieve the Mafia win condition, because they don't count toward the Mafia count. So a Mafia wouldn't care if they lived anyway.
So I think that they're either both neutral, or one's Town, one's Mafia, for consistency. I don't know enough about AI to predict what it is, but this seems to be a fair assumption.
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Vote:chamber
Vote:chamber
Town/Mafia/Other - 14/6/3
Win/Lose/Tie - 11/12/0
Nk/lynched/Survived - 16/4/3
I mean i do have an ability (I believe I've claimed that), but as to why im so restricted despite it not being an awesome insane ability, i can think of two reasons.
The first is that Maybe the host wants some major roles to have less than powerful abilities, so that a scum can claim a major role? (I doubt this one, but idk).
The second is that you didnt quite understand me. Whille you could technically apply the "Show about nothing" moniker to a few new sitcoms, with Seinfeld it was groundbreaking. Imagine going up to an official saying, I propose a show about nothing. It really is insane. Seinfed is the 1st.
Which is why I, Jerry Seinfeld, have really a not too significant role, even with my ability. Of course, my ability relates to Seinfeld's occupation of a stand up comedian, but id prefer NOT TO reveal it yet.
Errr pardon the double post, didnt see chambers mod but since its significant i feel i have to reply.....
WHAT THE HELL WAS THAT CLAIM! Why on earth would you do that Chamber, why would you vote yourself, and why on earth do you think wed believe you to be both doc and cop.
FOS Chamber. That was weird.
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I actually imagine its somewhere inbetween.
Why? That's for you to figure out. And did you really need to double post?
Town/Mafia/Other - 14/6/3
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Are you trying to implicate me? I only name-claimed after being under 5 votes at one point, and only mentioned not having a vote.
And if Chamber is trying to mock my tactics, then he is very much not being productive.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
FAX ME SOME HALIBUT-COUNT
Bateleur - 2 (Ximbad, Holmes)
Loran16 - 1 ( Fayul,)
Ximbad - 2 (Fadeblue, Passdog)
Chamber - 2 (Chamber, Chamber)
---------------------------------------------
10 to lynch..
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LORAN'S HAPPY-FUN-TIME FOS COUNT
DYH
Chamber
-----------------------
-Alpha
Well, I think we can clear Chamber of being mafia, and assume that he is a multi voter with some special activation restriction that requires a strange post (maybe a target of himself?)
I somehow doubt that the Mafia would get a multi-voter, or that he would use his ability this early. So i think ill UnFOS Chamber.
Claims list so far:
Chamber: Multi Voter. Bizarre Claim that is weird.
Loran16: Jerry Seinfeld. Unexplained ability, Unable to vote, unable to get doc protection, needs to draw attention to himself.
Bat: Mr. Costanza (Jerry Stiller)Neutral player with both maf and town win conditions, and turns mafia or townie depending on if certain players are killed.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Town/Mafia/Other - 14/6/3
Win/Lose/Tie - 11/12/0
Nk/lynched/Survived - 16/4/3
Okay, IN my mind there is ONE person in the show who would fit the crazyness that Chamber had to do, and would make sense as a multivoter.
(Cosmo) Kramer. SO my guess is Chamber is indeed one of the four main characters, as Kramer. Kramers' crazyness and insanity would make his activation of his ability make sense, and he is so crazy and random that multivoting makes sense.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Sorry to shoot you down but I'm not kramer.
Town/Mafia/Other - 14/6/3
Win/Lose/Tie - 11/12/0
Nk/lynched/Survived - 16/4/3
Hmm thanks Chamber for confirming your momentary crazyiness was an activation cost or restriction of your multivoting ability. And I may still think you're kramer, but afraid to claim so since you're afraid of being night killed. Of course, you're already a target for the mafia as a multivoter, and a bigger target for an SK. So I doubt a claim would hurt.
Just uh, be a little careful with that abiltiy.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
They're standard.
Nope.
So ? Unless I misunderstand the basic rules of Mafia, my win parameters are still the same if I die. (I can't find this written down anywhere, but I believe it's the case in general, no ?)
Who knows ? I don't think she'd be Mafia for reasons previously stated. I have no way to assess the likelihood of her being Neutral beyond information which I have already passed on.
Not at all. I mean yeah, that'd be great for me, but my position is no worse now than pre-claim even if neither of them do.
That possibility has to be considered in the light of my rolename, though. At this point I would've thought that my rolename is more-or-less definitely correct. Wikipedia tells me very little about my relationship with George except that I "dominate" him. That doesn't make it sound like I'd want to kill him. Maybe someone who actually knows the show could tell us more ?
Neutral. Isn't this rather an academic distinction given that I've told you my entire role ?
Probably - but be careful ! AlphaIndisious played in WD2 Mafia where the game kinda hinged on this assertion. Detailed arguments were presented for why Mafia can be mutivoters, so he might have included one for variety. (Short summary: it makes the Mafia stronger, but is not completely broken.)
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<Limited Clan>
On bat's claim: well I have no real problem with it at this time.
On loran's claim:
Name: Main character. No counter-claim. Not clear. Doesn't really tell us much.
Ability: Not claimed, but hinted strongly at. Doesn't want doc protection. If I'm thinking of the right ability, I have no clue why he can't vote.
On chamber: I don't know why you did that, but whatever.
There is a lot of advantage for the mafia for bateleur to be making this claim.
1. They know who not to kill. Bat - as he is on there side (for the time being at least [if the claim ]))
2. They
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There are just too many paradoxes in his claim. One is that, if he dies right now, he wins the game no matter who (except for neutrals) wins.
Also, as was pointed out earlier, what happens if George is killed by one faction and Mrs. C by the other?
Thirdly, as this role has been public for awhile now, why hasn't George or Mrs. C claimed yet? It would seem to be their best strategy--making it so neither side wants to kill them.
For these reasons, Vote: bat.
Oh, also, if bateleur's telling the truth, he shouldn't mind being lynched (as he wins with whoever wins), and no faction should mind lynching him (as he's not really on anyone's side). Right?
Here is what I wanted to say.
Bateleurs claim is a little suss and a BIG risk on his part.
1. Knowing who not to kill is an advantage for the mafia (this could expand to another two known characters (the other Costaza's).
2. It isn't clear whether lynching would be included in 'killing George or Mrs Costanza'. (if you know better bat please clarify)
3. If one of the Costanzas is accidently vigged (or lynched if it counts) bat becomes mafia. This is bad for the town as it creates a virtual No Lynch scenario for the town if we lynch him (the ordinary mafia got a free lynch and a night to do as they please). If we don't lynch him we potentially reduce all 'total votes to lynch' for the rest of the game by 1 as he can lurk and do nothing until the last vote on a wagon.
4. If he becomes town, we get a confirmed townie (always good). Except that it is bad for bat as it makes him an obvious target for the mafia to kill. Considering we already have Jerry Seinfeld revealed that is a big risk for him as that makes a really confusing decision for any potential docs to make - protect the protagonist (loran - with ability) or the other confirmed townie (bat - no further ability).
Actually I think that is a decision that would be quite easy to make as vanilla townie (which is what I understand bat would become) is worth less than even the smallest ability.
Any decision that is bad for bat would sort of contradict his reasoning for a reveal - keeping his odds as good as possible. Become known town would be bad for bat (unless there are more than one doc or the doc gets lucky)
These factors lead me to believe that bat's claim may be a calculated attempt to force a reveal of other characters. If so very clever. He may not have thought of the same things as I have either. I could also have missed something.
At this stage I will unvote as there are better things to discuss than Ximbad (I haven't forgotten you though:wink2:)
FoS bateleur because of the confusing mess he has created. If he is mafia then there has to be some ulterior motive for revealing the other two characters (like a need to kill the four protagonists maybe - george shouldn't reveal yet).
I would also suggest that Mrs Costanza shouldn't reveal yet either as there is a need to discuss further strategy regarding bateleurs role.
Whilst it admittedly isn't 100% clear, I rather doubt this. More likely, I require both of the others to live through to the endgame if I am to retain both victory conditions.
Depends which happens first.
You would think so, wouldn't you ? But at least two people have already speculated that I have ulterior motives for wanting to flush them out and there has also been some speculation that George might have other reasons for staying out of the public eye.
If there's a serious move to lynch me I'd expect at least Mrs Costanza to reveal herself before it happens. Otherwise if she roleclaims in the late game she's likely to be auto-lynched for having hurt the town. We haven't heard from all the players yet, so I'm still mostly waiting.
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<Limited Clan>
Not a great deal. I disagree with you about a number of strategic points, but there's little point me "correcting" you since such things are matters of opinion. Similarly, my view is that it's extremely obvious what lynches count as, but since I have no hard evidence I see no reason to speculate.
Also, I don't really see that my becoming a confirmed townie would be so bad for me. Yes, the Mafia might kill me, but Mafia kills always hit Townies anyway (since they know who is Mafia). As such, them killing someone completely vanilla is the best outcome for the Town and hence (by that point) the best outcome for me.
As with any Mafia game, if we have a vig it would be nice to think they wouldn't fire randomly into the crowd.
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
Just to increase my understanding of your motives.
Nope, really can't see the risk here.
Not really, because if they revealed themselves it would be name only. That doesn't tell the Mafia anything useful.
Given that loran16 has already asked for no Doc protection I don't see the relevance. Also, suggesting policy to the Doc is scummy - don't do it.
If you think this then the best use of your time and effort is to work out what possible role I might have where this strategy makes sense.
Also, if that were my strategy it wouldn't be very clever. A very clever strategy is one that works without anyone so much as considering foiling it !
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
In all honesty, the only strategy I can currently concieve where you would benefit from a false claim like this would be if you desire one or all of the Costanzas dead for some reason. Doesn't mean that there isn't some other plan that you are working toward, just that I can't see it.
For Seinfeld buffs... do George and his family have any arch nemeses?
The other thing I wanted to know was do lynches count as a kill toward your change in alignment (if you know)?
What do others think? Should Mrs Costanza reveal?
I really don't think this has anything to do with the mafia in this game though. I find it very likely that we have four mafia who are the bizarro versions of Jerry, George, Kramer, and I don't remember a bizarro Newman, but it's been mentioned in the thread that there was one.
I knew I shouldn't have gotten into a second mafia game.
Well then, Bat, can you come up with a viable reason why we shouldn't put this pressure on to get her to name-claim?
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
If someone came out and said "wait, if you lynch him, I turn into mafia!" maybe we could change our minds. But without that, there's like no downside.
Sorry, I got nothing.
Joking apart, maybe if you could present some arguments for what your proposing, people might take you a bit more seriously.
Not apart from the obvious one that she really ought to name claim without pressure.
Anyway, how do you pressurise an unknown player ?!
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
Vote: Bateleur.
Like this.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
(Emphasis mine)
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Sorry, I got nothing.
Joking apart, maybe if you could present some arguments for what your proposing, people might take you a bit more seriously.[quote]
What happens if it gets down to 3 town, 2 mafia, and you with both win conditions? Do we lose? If the answer is yes, you need to go.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Vote: bateleur
Note that it takes 10 to lynch. Anyone who actually takes this to a lynch without consulting the Town first should be vig meat (or tomorrow's lynch if there's no vig).
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
No, Holmes. He's neutral, so he doesn't count toward the Mafia. He just has the win. He wins when the Mafia wins.
Quite a gambit, Bat. I really think that, if you aren't careful, this may backfire. Besides, a vig would have problems choosing from half-a-dozen bandwagoners.
But if you believe in this...sigh. I really don't want to Vote Bateleur, but it has to be done. I hope you know what you're doing...
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia