So then we have two vote forcers? Both of which are presumably anti-town... targetting HAWKEYE twice like that suggests anti-town, and forcing the mod to vote doesn't seem townie either. This seems rather unlikely.
Azrael didn't willing vote for highroller, he was forced to vote by someone else. For some reason that person had to go through us (yeah its weird) He is one of our old prison mates and asked us to rough up azrael so that he’d vote for highroller. Now the fact that it’s one of our prison mates suggests that they are not town aligned. Also the fact that they chose azrael leads me to believe azrael isn't part of their group. Again this is weak evidence in his favor and only suggests he’s not part of one group. If you want evidence of this you can look at the end of yesterday where suddenly, both sorryguy and me were like "oh wait never mind azrael is cool don’t worry about him". That happened because at first the pm to us didn’t tell us it was azrael we were forcing to vote, later right before those comments it was revised to include that it was him we were roughing up.
Wait, why the hell did you hide this from the town the entire day? And you have no idea who this person is?
Its simply the only reason I see SorryGuy could think mat was lying, as I said, I still think it's a bad reason.
Unbelievable. Vig, kill SorryGuy tonight please.
Alright, so is there anything ELSE you guys would like to tell us that you've kept from the town?
Wait, why the hell did you hide this from the town the entire day? And you have no idea who this person is?
Holding information can be useful,it's possible the person in question didn't know he went through us and would have came out, at what time he would have been under alot of specualtion, we knowing him to have been in prison and all. Correct we have no idea.
Quote from Highroller »
Unbelievable. Vig, kill SorryGuy tonight please.
I don't see why the vig has to kill anyone.
Quote from Highroller »
Alright, so is there anything ELSE you guys would like to tell us that you've kept from the town?
Honestly dude, how thickheaded can you be? I mean it's one thing to provide information or theory about how likely a vigging is to hurt the town, but you aren't even doing that. All you keep insisting on is that you're telling the truth and therefore the town should believe you.
The reason the vig has to kill one of you is that you AREN'T trustworthy, and that you're a likely threat to the town. The town has exactly zero reason to believe all the details of your story, and every reason to suspect that you're hiding or misrepresenting info that would point you out as the clear choice for a vig kill.
Even if you ARE telling the truth, vigging one of you has a greater benefit to the town than it would look like if it were random, because we hopefully clear the other one of you. No, it isn't a pretty outcome, but it's the only play that makes sense without more evidence to prove you innocent.
I guess Vote Azrael. I'm fairly diffident about that, because nobody really knows how extreme the consequences are going to be, but I feel comfortable following MJM after an attempt on his life.
The three top suspects people had at the end of the day yesterday have all been "cleared" in different ways, at this point. I have to say I'm much more inclined at this point to trust MJM than the paper, and the fact that two other suspects have been much more reliably cleared makes me a little more suspicious of HR. Not really even enough for an FOS at this point, though.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
I've seen princess bride and I understand the reference, but I don't understand how WIFOM pertains to mafia games.
Quote from fadeblue »
1) To be in the last X people alive
this is not inherently anti-town. The only motivation is to stay alive; in fact, they are motivated to be pro-town to curry favor while remaining less-than-optimal targets or the mafia.
2) To be the only non-mafia people left alive (at which point they join the mafia and win with them)
this seems like a very unlikely win condition. if the mafia has more than 2 people, it's very hard to be the only non-mafia, and to be the last two non-mafia in general is almost impossible.
in addition, they really have no way to discover who is mafia, so they are a bit up in the air.
Note that the roles are probably assigned so that if one of the masons die, the other one still has a win condition. That's why I think they aren't a real threat to the town.
Could they be lying? They are almost definitely lying or holding something back. But that doesn't make them inherently bad for us. We should focus on more important issues.
won't mattjoeman die if we don't have a doctor tonight?
perhaps the SK can choose his method of killing to confuse the hell out of us.
didn't the guy in red sneakers help us out after the first daykill? i'm not sure if he's good or bad.
I had to have WIFOM explained to me too when I came here. It was invented over at mafiascum I think... it's a 5-letter way of saying that someone's getting into circular reasoning.
Anytime someone gets an argument going that boils down to "would I do that if I was mafia?" or would provoke a response like "but that's what you want us to think!" it's WIFOM.
I owe Hawkeye an apology, I guess. Mind you, if chamber and SG had admitted to this weird vote-forcing thing earlier, I might have been more inclined to believe that someone could make Hawkeye vote-unvote like that because NONE OF THIS MAKES ANY SENSE AT ALL.
Whoo, needed to vent there.
chamber and SG: If you guys see yourselves as town and yet you're the people who roughed up Az to force his vote, why do you believe the person ordering you must be mafia? You guys seem practically bipolar.
Could you please be really clear NOW if vigging you will also trigger the turn-to-mafia, and also if vigging you will stop the forced-vote ability.
Highroller- I don't know who Miho is in Sin City, so maybe ninja stars is absolutely her, but it also strikes me that it might be the villians from the comic I'm from and that I think you're from. Whether or not this helps I don't know.
The scary thing is that unless the Kevin daykill was a one-off, it's still out there now. Hopefully it can't be used today. matjoe, I recommend coming out with your inspection result really fast tomorrow morning (and every morning). I usually like the possibility of trapping people by delaying inspector results for part of a day, but...
chamber and SG: If you guys see yourselves as town and yet you're the people who roughed up Az to force his vote, why do you believe the person ordering you must be mafia? You guys seem practically bipolar.
He hid himself from us and the pm seemed to imply he didn't have good intentions. It’s not certain he is anti-town.
Quote from RafaelK »
Could you please be really clear NOW if vigging you will also trigger the turn-to-mafia, and also if vigging you will stop the forced-vote ability.
Vigging won't trigrer the change. I'm not sure if the person has to go through us everytime, or if they can go through different people, it's not my ability.
Highroller- I don't know who Miho is in Sin City, so maybe ninja stars is absolutely her, but it also strikes me that it might be the villians from the comic I'm from and that I think you're from. Whether or not this helps I don't know.
The scary thing is that unless the Kevin daykill was a one-off, it's still out there now. Hopefully it can't be used today. matjoe, I recommend coming out with your inspection result really fast tomorrow morning (and every morning). I usually like the possibility of trapping people by delaying inspector results for part of a day, but...
Well, if you've seen the movie then you know who Miho is. And none of you all have an excuse to not have seen this movie. It's not only going to give you a lot of information about the game, but it's also probably the best movie of 2005, at least that I've seen.
Miho is a short, silent warrior who patrols Old Town, protecting the prostitutes from anyone who wants to harm them. She's essentially invincible, so deadly with a sword and shurikens that anyone who goes up against her is dead.
But good call on our comic. That could very well be the case. It scares me what kind of menagerie of villains we're dealing with, though, if that happens to be true.
Does anyone have a rough idea of the vote count?
Matjoeman: PM Azrael as soon as possible tonight. I have reason to believe that if the mafia targets you before you send in an inspection and they're successful in killing you, you might not get one. And, again, there is a possibility that whatever allowed DYH to talk can allow you to as well.
This is a huge risk and complicates the day further, but I feel this is also the best time. I think I know who a daykiller is, and if matjoe is still with us it could be that there's no more daykills today (which means this is the smart time to come out with it).
I'm masons with armlx.
The flavour is that he and I are both postal workers, which as far as I know has nothing to do with my comic or my character's name.
He and I have each claimed to each other we're watchers (we watch the PMs- mail- people get). Night 1 he watched axelrod and I watched HR, night 2 he watched Hawkeye and I watched AS. I don't know whether it's wise to come out with the results on the living players. I'll take advice on that.
armlx on Hawkeye:
Oh yeah, a lot on Hawkeye. He got an official note, but I found something else at his room: A gnawed on bloodsoaked note of some kind. Plus a creepy aura. I think Hawkeye might be Kevin.
Lynch all liars, preferably before they daykill me.
Please say if Armix claimed to get anything on me.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
OK... I might change my vote to armlx depending on what he says.
Now I did get definite results on Az and AS. It gave me the flavor, and then the exact alignment in parentheses. Althought it did mention that he changed his face.
Now let me get a few things straight. Keep in mind I saw the movie a while ago.
1. Hartigan is Bruce Willis right?
2. Dwight isn't that yellow guy is he? He changed his face (his whole body), but before Hartigan committed suicide. Yellow guy became yellow because he had to because I shot him, several times. His face wouldn't have been on wanted posters I don't think; he was some powerful guy's son I think.
2. Dwight isn't that yellow guy is he? He changed his face (his whole body), but before Hartigan committed suicide. Yellow guy became yellow because he had to because I shot him, several times. His face wouldn't have been on wanted posters I don't think; he was some powerful guy's son I think.
O, Az pmed me, I think he's pissed.
People, watch the movie. Please. You don't know how good it is until you see it.
Can you say if he PM'd you "in character," without getting Mod-killed?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Wow. Ok, well, I guess we need to hear from armlx on this. I don't like rush-lynching based on that evidence - Raf, what makes you think he's a daykiller and not just a liar?
HR: You were told that you were watched?
In other news, despite being "cleared" by MJM, AS is still being absurd.
Quote from aurorasparrow »
this is not inherently anti-town. The only motivation is to stay alive; in fact, they are motivated to be pro-town to curry favor while remaining less-than-optimal targets or the mafia.
You asked for examples of anti-town win conditions on neutrals. This is an example that has BEEN USED IN GAMES BEFORE. Yes, we know that chamber/SG could be pro-town, but that doesn't make it 100% true. And even if they do play along as pro-town, that still doesn't change the fact that they can potentially make the town lose.
this seems like a very unlikely win condition. if the mafia has more than 2 people, it's very hard to be the only non-mafia, and to be the last two non-mafia in general is almost impossible.
Yet it's been used before. I'm not saying it's likely to be true in this game. Again, I'm giving you EXAMPLES of anti-town win conditions. How are you arguing with examples??
And we still don't even have confirmation that they're neutrals and not mafia. Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Seriously, you make waaay too many assumptions for a Mafia game.
Could they be lying? They are almost definitely lying or holding something back. But that doesn't make them inherently bad for us. We should focus on more important issues.
So now you don't trust them? You seem to be defending them very strongly for no good reason. Yes, they could be good, and yes, there are more important issues. But something like a vigkill can help us take care of this issue while still letting us focus on the important ones.
Oh god this game is insane. I saw a quote from a PM above, so can we post quotes from Mod PMs? Also does it matter if it is in charecter mod or information mod?
Anyway here it is. My brother and I had left our rooms in the night for the bathroom when a man began yelling at us. We knew it as he was above us in prison (implied scum) but we never saw his face. He told us that he had a job and we agreed. He told us that we agreed we needed to take the big guy off his high hoarse.
In game terms we were the ones who forced Az to vote.
...
Confused? Because I am. Now to me I have no idea why someone (scum?) would make us force Az to vote and at that why his face is so important in the PM I also do not know. It seems Az it three people, mod, town, and scum with his face changing. I really do not get it. At any rate I was under the impression Az was town. chamber disagrees.
This made me feel Matjoeman was scum although I no longer believe that.
Matjoeman: What did the PM say?
As far as the armlx thing goes...eh....Just more for this game. But if we have a evil mod can we trust yuor watch of the post? Is there anything in your role to suggest your information may be incorrect?
As far as who shall die, flip a coin. I want to live so I can post and help the town but I will be watching this game regardless.
It's better if you don't ask. At least not today. Bottom line is I know that at least part of what RafaelK says is true, so I'm willing to give him a hell of a lot more of the benefit of the doubt than I ever would chamber and SorryGuy.
Unvote Azrael, vote armlx. If this is an opportunity to get rid of a potential daykiller I say we do it.
Quote from SorryGuy »
This made me feel Matjoeman was scum although I no longer believe that.
Why are people saying Armlx is the daykiller? I have missed that particular piece of logic.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
yeah, I dont get why armlx is necessarily a liar either.
Quote from fadeblue »
You asked for examples of anti-town win conditions on neutrals. This is an example that has BEEN USED IN GAMES BEFORE. Yes, we know that chamber/SG could be pro-town, but that doesn't make it 100% true. And even if they do play along as pro-town, that still doesn't change the fact that they can potentially make the town lose.
true, but they can also potentially make the mafia lose.
Yet it's been used before. I'm not saying it's likely to be true in this game. Again, I'm giving you EXAMPLES of anti-town win conditions. How are you arguing with examples??
because I dont see a reasonable way they could be immediate threats to us.
And we still don't even have confirmation that they're neutrals and not mafia. Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Seriously, you make waaay too many assumptions for a Mafia game.
if theyre mafia, I'll kill myself.
So now you don't trust them? You seem to be defending them very strongly for no good reason. Yes, they could be good, and yes, there are more important issues. But something like a vigkill can help us take care of this issue while still letting us focus on the important ones.
I never trusted them, but I also never have thought them dangerous.
Youre only looking at the issue from a town point of view. assuming theyre not mafia, Sorryguy and chamber's existence are obstacles to the mafia winning. they could POTENTIALLY (unlikely imo) cause damage to the town, but with the assumption they are definitely bad for the mafia.
so, ask yourself what would hurt the town more; these two or the loss of a non-mafia?
Axel wants armlx's result on him outed, Axel can have it.
Axelrod might be mafia. He got no mod PM, but there apparently was chatter (that might be flavor too though). Now is not the time to come out with this info though.
I offer no opinion on the truth or otherwise of this, although I can't say I was too impressed with this at the time as proving Axel to be mafia as it would be way too easy if armlx and I could both detect mafia through "chatter". Of course, I was slightly amazed that armlx got such a strong result back on Hawkeye too- but then, I didn't know for sure we had a full cop then, and I was suspicious of Hawkeye anyway.
fade and axel: my logic for armlx being the daykiller is that he was particularly trying to make me think Hawkeye was KEVIN, and also that remember that until he attracts suspicion he's effectively learning the watcher results on two people per night. That's a really awesomely strong power for the mafia (who would also know if I'm going to watch one of them so they could act accordingly, plus they get to start already knowing one of the people who the cop/doc isn't). But it's a good way to power up an SK, which is a role which is traditionally hard to win with. Who knows, I could be wrong, he could be mafia. But given that Hawkeye came up as the town bodyguard, the aura of evil stuff must be a lie.
yeah, I dont get why armlx is necessarily a liar either.
Well, he apparently told Raf false information about HAWKEYE's character, so that would make him a liar if Raf is telling the truth. Daykiller? Who knows.
true, but they can also potentially make the mafia lose.
Except the goal for the town is "to win," not "to make the mafia lose."
because I dont see a reasonable way they could be immediate threats to us.
They don't need to be immediate threats. If they're anti-town, we need to deal with them eventually. And because of their claim, we can't safely deal with them through lynching. Thus, we may not have the tools later to finally figure out where they stand.
if theyre mafia, I'll kill myself.
I'm glad you've never played a game where Mafia have claimed masons.
Youre only looking at the issue from a town point of view. assuming theyre not mafia, Sorryguy and chamber's existence are obstacles to the mafia winning.
Assuming neutrality, how are they particularly obstacles for the mafia? They're as much of an obstacle to the mafia as any townie, unless they have harmful abilities in which case they're an obstacle to BOTH the mafia and the town.
they could POTENTIALLY (unlikely imo) cause damage to the town, but with the assumption they are definitely bad for the mafia.
Huh?
so, ask yourself what would hurt the town more; these two or the loss of a non-mafia?
Ok, I want everyone to know right now that this is an error on Azrael's part, and I do not have two votes.
Azrael, please correct this error. I unvoted you.
I'm quite confused right now. Upon rereading RafaelK's evidence, I'm questioning whether or not the daykiller conclusion is something we can make. I'll keep the vote on for pressure. Right now I want to see what armlx says.
I'm reading the thread - will post as soon as I'm done (and it may be a while, and I may or may not have posted an affidavit such as this already, I don't remember frankly). kay kay?
Somebody asked but I forgot who. Az basicly said "I warned you not to claim but you just wouldn't listin. You messin' wit me *****? Huh? You wanna go Huh? HUH!?!" Except it sounded more intelligent. And he mentioned Batealur's death for some reason.
Well, in that case, it definitely sounds like lynching the Mod. is in order here. I'd like to hear what Armlx has to say for himself first though.
And Draygn_mage: huh?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Somebody asked but I forgot who. Az basicly said "I warned you not to claim but you just wouldn't listin. You messin' wit me *****? Huh? You wanna go Huh? HUH!?!" Except it sounded more intelligent. And he mentioned Batealur's death for some reason.
Umm... I'm not sure what's going to happen since you editted your post, but if Azrael doesn't mod kill you, please don't go all wacky on us like DYH.
FOS draygn_mage. We've got an inspector who found Azrael to be mafia, a person who believes his mason is against the town, and yet you not only vote someone who is at the moment the least suspicious of the three, but give no reason why?
I'm waiting for armlx to post, but I think for now I'll unvote, and revote Azrael.
Unvote Yup. I was definatly gone during the wrong part of the day. I come back to like 4 new pages.
I think if we end up lynching armlx(which, at this point, I think we should), our vig would do better with vigging Az first, before any mason viggings(which I still oppose, if any of you care :rolleyes:).
MJM has confirmed that Az has "changed his face" so he's probably this Dwight person. Sorryguy suggested that Az may have some kind of triple personality: scum, neutral, and town. There may be truth to this. Unvote: Az for now, though I may vote him again today.
Sorryguy, however, is scum.
Quote from SorryGuy, #486 »
I am caustious of blindly following you down this but Highroller is one of the scummier players today and I am also interested in finding out what Az is doing.
I will therefore follow you and Vote: Highroller
Ok, so Sorryguy is coerced into coercing Azrael into voting Highroller. And he thinks a scum made him do it. Fine.
But what does he do immediately afterwards?
He bandwagon votes Highroller because he thinks HR is scummy and to find out what Az is doing?????!!!!!
He ALREADY KNOWS what Az is doing because HE MADE AZ DO IT! Furthermore, he thinks a scum was behind it, which is a clear indication that HR is probably NOT SCUM!
This is just wrong. What really happened, imho, is SG and chamber forced Az to vote HR in an attempt to get the town to lynch HR. No one forced them.
Allow me to paraphrase RafK from HS mafia:
FOS: Sorryguy & Chamber with recommendation to vig until they're dead, dead, dead.
I'm almost tempted to vote them, because I'm so convinced they're mafia.
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Notice the date and the fact that it says that on all of his posts and you will see it is actully part of his sig. He is not getting modkilled.
... I feel stupid...
Quote from CropCircles »
I think if we end up lynching armlx(which, at this point, I think we should), our vig would do better with vigging Az first, before any mason viggings(which I still oppose, if any of you care :rolleyes:).
Well, I think you know that I disagree with you there, CropCircles. Azrael we can lynch. This, once again, is a situation only a vigilante can deal with. Moreover, we go back to the conservation of vig kills. I don't think the vig should kill anyone that we can lynch ourselves.
MJM has confirmed that Az has "changed his face" so he's probably this Dwight person. Sorryguy suggested that Az may have some kind of triple personality: scum, neutral, and town. There may be truth to this. Unvote: Az for now, though I may vote him again today.
Sorryguy, however, is scum.
Ok, so Sorryguy is coerced into coercing Azrael into voting Highroller. And he thinks a scum made him do it. Fine.
But what does he do immediately afterwards?
He bandwagon votes Highroller because he thinks HR is scummy and to find out what Az is doing?????!!!!!
He ALREADY KNOWS what Az is doing because HE MADE AZ DO IT! Furthermore, he thinks a scum was behind it, which is a clear indication that HR is probably NOT SCUM!
This is just wrong. What really happened, imho, is SG and chamber forced Az to vote HR in an attempt to get the town to lynch HR. No one forced them.
Allow me to paraphrase RafK from HS mafia:
FOS: Sorryguy & Chamber with recommendation to vig until they're dead, dead, dead.
I'm almost tempted to vote them, because I'm so convinced they're mafia.
Did you read MY post. At first we weren't told who we were coercing, we found out later in the day.At that time we made it fairly obvious.
You probably will not like this but here is how it went down. I recieved the flavorful PM that I described before. I did not really get it and so I went on posting. This was when chamber was gone for the weekend if my memory serves me correctly. When chamber returned he asked Az to tell us the meaning of this PM in terms of the game. He then replied the next day telling us that it meant we had made them vote the way he did.
sorry, i didn't have time to post more than that. That vote is until we get some kind of reply from armlx. When I read Raf's post it sounded a lot like one of his bluffs in HS mafia.
Oh yeah, a lot on Hawkeye. He got an official note, but I found something else at his room: A gnawed on bloodsoaked note of some kind. Plus a creepy aura. I think Hawkeye might be Kevin.
A bloodsoaked note was also found on the DYH murder scene. There's no reason a bodyguard would have such a note, but armlx could have thrown this detail in to help paint Hawkeye as Kevin.
Obviously, I too am waiting for armlx to explain himself, with a vote to follow if his explanation is insufficient.
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Except the goal for the town is "to win," not "to make the mafia lose."
Isn't it? We win when all scum are dead.
They don't need to be immediate threats. If they're anti-town, we need to deal with them eventually. And because of their claim, we can't safely deal with them through lynching. Thus, we may not have the tools later to finally figure out where they stand.
neutral =/= anti-town; if we kill all the mafia I'm pretty sure we don't have to then go and kill them. And if they don't have nightkills we can take all the time we need.
I'm glad you've never played a game where Mafia have claimed masons.
The tactic just doesn't make sense to me. I could never imagine a smart player or a mafia with smart comrades attempting it except in the most desperate of circumstances. Maybe thats WIFOM but I don't care.
Assuming neutrality, how are they particularly obstacles for the mafia? They're as much of an obstacle to the mafia as any townie, unless they have harmful abilities in which case they're an obstacle to BOTH the mafia and the town.
exactly. theyre either bad for the mafia or bad for both sides. Thus, theyre probably more of a hassle to the mafia alive.
No.
Town/Mafia/Other - 14/6/3
Win/Lose/Tie - 11/12/0
Nk/lynched/Survived - 16/4/3
Wait, why the hell did you hide this from the town the entire day? And you have no idea who this person is?
Unbelievable. Vig, kill SorryGuy tonight please.
Alright, so is there anything ELSE you guys would like to tell us that you've kept from the town?
Holding information can be useful,it's possible the person in question didn't know he went through us and would have came out, at what time he would have been under alot of specualtion, we knowing him to have been in prison and all. Correct we have no idea.
I don't see why the vig has to kill anyone.
That is all the info we have.
Town/Mafia/Other - 14/6/3
Win/Lose/Tie - 11/12/0
Nk/lynched/Survived - 16/4/3
???
Honestly dude, how thickheaded can you be? I mean it's one thing to provide information or theory about how likely a vigging is to hurt the town, but you aren't even doing that. All you keep insisting on is that you're telling the truth and therefore the town should believe you.
The reason the vig has to kill one of you is that you AREN'T trustworthy, and that you're a likely threat to the town. The town has exactly zero reason to believe all the details of your story, and every reason to suspect that you're hiding or misrepresenting info that would point you out as the clear choice for a vig kill.
Even if you ARE telling the truth, vigging one of you has a greater benefit to the town than it would look like if it were random, because we hopefully clear the other one of you. No, it isn't a pretty outcome, but it's the only play that makes sense without more evidence to prove you innocent.
I guess Vote Azrael. I'm fairly diffident about that, because nobody really knows how extreme the consequences are going to be, but I feel comfortable following MJM after an attempt on his life.
The three top suspects people had at the end of the day yesterday have all been "cleared" in different ways, at this point. I have to say I'm much more inclined at this point to trust MJM than the paper, and the fact that two other suspects have been much more reliably cleared makes me a little more suspicious of HR. Not really even enough for an FOS at this point, though.
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this is not inherently anti-town. The only motivation is to stay alive; in fact, they are motivated to be pro-town to curry favor while remaining less-than-optimal targets or the mafia.
this seems like a very unlikely win condition. if the mafia has more than 2 people, it's very hard to be the only non-mafia, and to be the last two non-mafia in general is almost impossible.
in addition, they really have no way to discover who is mafia, so they are a bit up in the air.
Note that the roles are probably assigned so that if one of the masons die, the other one still has a win condition. That's why I think they aren't a real threat to the town.
Could they be lying? They are almost definitely lying or holding something back. But that doesn't make them inherently bad for us. We should focus on more important issues.
won't mattjoeman die if we don't have a doctor tonight?
perhaps the SK can choose his method of killing to confuse the hell out of us.
didn't the guy in red sneakers help us out after the first daykill? i'm not sure if he's good or bad.
4th place at CCC&G Pro Tour
Chances of bad hands (<2 or >4 land):
21: 28.9%
22: 27.5%
23: 26.3%
24: 25.5%
25: 25.1%
26: 25.3%
Player X is scum!
Why?
Because Player X committed blatant acts of scumminess!
Do scum generally commit blatantly scummy actions?
Well no...
So Player X is town.
But he could be scum, making blatantly scummy mistakes in order to make us THINK he is town when in fact he is scum!
WIFOM
BTW, one of the masons is being pegged tonight. All opposed, well, we don't really care :-p.
Anytime someone gets an argument going that boils down to "would I do that if I was mafia?" or would provoke a response like "but that's what you want us to think!" it's WIFOM.
I owe Hawkeye an apology, I guess. Mind you, if chamber and SG had admitted to this weird vote-forcing thing earlier, I might have been more inclined to believe that someone could make Hawkeye vote-unvote like that because NONE OF THIS MAKES ANY SENSE AT ALL.
Whoo, needed to vent there.
chamber and SG: If you guys see yourselves as town and yet you're the people who roughed up Az to force his vote, why do you believe the person ordering you must be mafia? You guys seem practically bipolar.
Could you please be really clear NOW if vigging you will also trigger the turn-to-mafia, and also if vigging you will stop the forced-vote ability.
Highroller- I don't know who Miho is in Sin City, so maybe ninja stars is absolutely her, but it also strikes me that it might be the villians from the comic I'm from and that I think you're from. Whether or not this helps I don't know.
The scary thing is that unless the Kevin daykill was a one-off, it's still out there now. Hopefully it can't be used today. matjoe, I recommend coming out with your inspection result really fast tomorrow morning (and every morning). I usually like the possibility of trapping people by delaying inspector results for part of a day, but...
He hid himself from us and the pm seemed to imply he didn't have good intentions. It’s not certain he is anti-town.
Vigging won't trigrer the change. I'm not sure if the person has to go through us everytime, or if they can go through different people, it's not my ability.
Town/Mafia/Other - 14/6/3
Win/Lose/Tie - 11/12/0
Nk/lynched/Survived - 16/4/3
Well, if you've seen the movie then you know who Miho is. And none of you all have an excuse to not have seen this movie. It's not only going to give you a lot of information about the game, but it's also probably the best movie of 2005, at least that I've seen.
Miho is a short, silent warrior who patrols Old Town, protecting the prostitutes from anyone who wants to harm them. She's essentially invincible, so deadly with a sword and shurikens that anyone who goes up against her is dead.
But good call on our comic. That could very well be the case. It scares me what kind of menagerie of villains we're dealing with, though, if that happens to be true.
Does anyone have a rough idea of the vote count?
Matjoeman: PM Azrael as soon as possible tonight. I have reason to believe that if the mafia targets you before you send in an inspection and they're successful in killing you, you might not get one. And, again, there is a possibility that whatever allowed DYH to talk can allow you to as well.
This is a huge risk and complicates the day further, but I feel this is also the best time. I think I know who a daykiller is, and if matjoe is still with us it could be that there's no more daykills today (which means this is the smart time to come out with it).
I'm masons with armlx.
The flavour is that he and I are both postal workers, which as far as I know has nothing to do with my comic or my character's name.
He and I have each claimed to each other we're watchers (we watch the PMs- mail- people get). Night 1 he watched axelrod and I watched HR, night 2 he watched Hawkeye and I watched AS. I don't know whether it's wise to come out with the results on the living players. I'll take advice on that.
armlx on Hawkeye:
Lynch all liars, preferably before they daykill me.
Oh, and vote armlx, duh.
This much, at least, I can confirm.
Now I'm really, really confused as to which direction to proceed.
Now I did get definite results on Az and AS. It gave me the flavor, and then the exact alignment in parentheses. Althought it did mention that he changed his face.
Now let me get a few things straight. Keep in mind I saw the movie a while ago.
1. Hartigan is Bruce Willis right?
2. Dwight isn't that yellow guy is he? He changed his face (his whole body), but before Hartigan committed suicide. Yellow guy became yellow because he had to because I shot him, several times. His face wouldn't have been on wanted posters I don't think; he was some powerful guy's son I think.
O, Az pmed me, I think he's pissed.
<XylBot> ||| MAFIABOT || sk: LookingforReality (Copycat) |||
<XylBot> ||| MAFIABOT || survivor: matjoeman (Anarchist) |||
<XylBot> ||| MAFIABOT || town: kops (Anarchist) |||
Mafia stats
People, watch the movie. Please. You don't know how good it is until you see it.
http://www.apple.com/trailers/miramax/sin_city/
1. Hartigan = Bruce Willis
2. No, the Yellow guy (or That Yellow Bastard) is the youngest member of the Rourke family.
Ok, first off, if anyone else has ANYTHING that they want the town to know, speak out now.
Depending on what Axelrod says, I might switch votes to armlx. To take out our daykiller would be excellent.
Can you say if he PM'd you "in character," without getting Mod-killed?
I did see it, just a while ago, and I'm not good with character names.
Yes completely in character.
<XylBot> ||| MAFIABOT || sk: LookingforReality (Copycat) |||
<XylBot> ||| MAFIABOT || survivor: matjoeman (Anarchist) |||
<XylBot> ||| MAFIABOT || town: kops (Anarchist) |||
Mafia stats
HR: You were told that you were watched?
In other news, despite being "cleared" by MJM, AS is still being absurd.
You asked for examples of anti-town win conditions on neutrals. This is an example that has BEEN USED IN GAMES BEFORE. Yes, we know that chamber/SG could be pro-town, but that doesn't make it 100% true. And even if they do play along as pro-town, that still doesn't change the fact that they can potentially make the town lose.
Yet it's been used before. I'm not saying it's likely to be true in this game. Again, I'm giving you EXAMPLES of anti-town win conditions. How are you arguing with examples??
And we still don't even have confirmation that they're neutrals and not mafia. Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Seriously, you make waaay too many assumptions for a Mafia game.
So now you don't trust them? You seem to be defending them very strongly for no good reason. Yes, they could be good, and yes, there are more important issues. But something like a vigkill can help us take care of this issue while still letting us focus on the important ones.
Anyway here it is. My brother and I had left our rooms in the night for the bathroom when a man began yelling at us. We knew it as he was above us in prison (implied scum) but we never saw his face. He told us that he had a job and we agreed. He told us that we agreed we needed to take the big guy off his high hoarse.
In game terms we were the ones who forced Az to vote.
...
Confused? Because I am. Now to me I have no idea why someone (scum?) would make us force Az to vote and at that why his face is so important in the PM I also do not know. It seems Az it three people, mod, town, and scum with his face changing. I really do not get it. At any rate I was under the impression Az was town. chamber disagrees.
This made me feel Matjoeman was scum although I no longer believe that.
Matjoeman: What did the PM say?
As far as the armlx thing goes...eh....Just more for this game. But if we have a evil mod can we trust yuor watch of the post? Is there anything in your role to suggest your information may be incorrect?
As far as who shall die, flip a coin. I want to live so I can post and help the town but I will be watching this game regardless.
It's better if you don't ask. At least not today. Bottom line is I know that at least part of what RafaelK says is true, so I'm willing to give him a hell of a lot more of the benefit of the doubt than I ever would chamber and SorryGuy.
Unvote Azrael, vote armlx. If this is an opportunity to get rid of a potential daykiller I say we do it.
... Aren't you still voting for him?
Azrael: How's about a vote count?
7 Azrael-Matjoeman, Cropcircles, Highroller, JC, LJustus, Armlx, Carrion Pigeons
2 Armlx-Rafaelk, Highroller
1 Aurorasparrow- Aurorasparrow
1 Crippled Fist-Crippled Fist
1 Draygn_Mage-Draygn_Mage
1 Matjoeman- SG
5 Not Voting: Axelrod, Chamber, Rhinocero, Fayul, WoLG
10 to Lynch.
true, but they can also potentially make the mafia lose.
because I dont see a reasonable way they could be immediate threats to us.
if theyre mafia, I'll kill myself.
I never trusted them, but I also never have thought them dangerous.
Youre only looking at the issue from a town point of view. assuming theyre not mafia, Sorryguy and chamber's existence are obstacles to the mafia winning. they could POTENTIALLY (unlikely imo) cause damage to the town, but with the assumption they are definitely bad for the mafia.
so, ask yourself what would hurt the town more; these two or the loss of a non-mafia?
4th place at CCC&G Pro Tour
Chances of bad hands (<2 or >4 land):
21: 28.9%
22: 27.5%
23: 26.3%
24: 25.5%
25: 25.1%
26: 25.3%
Heh. Sorry. Unvote
I offer no opinion on the truth or otherwise of this, although I can't say I was too impressed with this at the time as proving Axel to be mafia as it would be way too easy if armlx and I could both detect mafia through "chatter". Of course, I was slightly amazed that armlx got such a strong result back on Hawkeye too- but then, I didn't know for sure we had a full cop then, and I was suspicious of Hawkeye anyway.
fade and axel: my logic for armlx being the daykiller is that he was particularly trying to make me think Hawkeye was KEVIN, and also that remember that until he attracts suspicion he's effectively learning the watcher results on two people per night. That's a really awesomely strong power for the mafia (who would also know if I'm going to watch one of them so they could act accordingly, plus they get to start already knowing one of the people who the cop/doc isn't). But it's a good way to power up an SK, which is a role which is traditionally hard to win with. Who knows, I could be wrong, he could be mafia. But given that Hawkeye came up as the town bodyguard, the aura of evil stuff must be a lie.
Well, he apparently told Raf false information about HAWKEYE's character, so that would make him a liar if Raf is telling the truth. Daykiller? Who knows.
Except the goal for the town is "to win," not "to make the mafia lose."
They don't need to be immediate threats. If they're anti-town, we need to deal with them eventually. And because of their claim, we can't safely deal with them through lynching. Thus, we may not have the tools later to finally figure out where they stand.
I'm glad you've never played a game where Mafia have claimed masons.
Assuming neutrality, how are they particularly obstacles for the mafia? They're as much of an obstacle to the mafia as any townie, unless they have harmful abilities in which case they're an obstacle to BOTH the mafia and the town.
Huh?
Trick question?
Ok, I want everyone to know right now that this is an error on Azrael's part, and I do not have two votes.
Azrael, please correct this error. I unvoted you.
I'm quite confused right now. Upon rereading RafaelK's evidence, I'm questioning whether or not the daykiller conclusion is something we can make. I'll keep the vote on for pressure. Right now I want to see what armlx says.
Er...Could you grace us with your reasoning on this?
@Fadeblue: He is indeed replacing Einsteinmonkey.
QFT - I'm replacing EinsteinMonkey, which is sort of a mixed blessing - obv I want to play mafia, but obv obv it sucks that he has to be replaced.
:confused2::o:crazy::no:
:banana::cyborg::monocle:
:1mana::symr:=:flame:
<XylBot> ||| MAFIABOT || sk: LookingforReality (Copycat) |||
<XylBot> ||| MAFIABOT || survivor: matjoeman (Anarchist) |||
<XylBot> ||| MAFIABOT || town: kops (Anarchist) |||
Mafia stats
And Draygn_mage: huh?
Umm... I'm not sure what's going to happen since you editted your post, but if Azrael doesn't mod kill you, please don't go all wacky on us like DYH.
FOS draygn_mage. We've got an inspector who found Azrael to be mafia, a person who believes his mason is against the town, and yet you not only vote someone who is at the moment the least suspicious of the three, but give no reason why?
I'm waiting for armlx to post, but I think for now I'll unvote, and revote Azrael.
Notice the date and the fact that it says that on all of his posts and you will see it is actully part of his sig. He is not getting modkilled.
I think if we end up lynching armlx(which, at this point, I think we should), our vig would do better with vigging Az first, before any mason viggings(which I still oppose, if any of you care :rolleyes:).
@ DM: Um...you know better then that.
[The Family]
MJM has confirmed that Az has "changed his face" so he's probably this Dwight person. Sorryguy suggested that Az may have some kind of triple personality: scum, neutral, and town. There may be truth to this. Unvote: Az for now, though I may vote him again today.
Sorryguy, however, is scum.
Ok, so Sorryguy is coerced into coercing Azrael into voting Highroller. And he thinks a scum made him do it. Fine.
But what does he do immediately afterwards?
He bandwagon votes Highroller because he thinks HR is scummy and to find out what Az is doing?????!!!!!
He ALREADY KNOWS what Az is doing because HE MADE AZ DO IT! Furthermore, he thinks a scum was behind it, which is a clear indication that HR is probably NOT SCUM!
This is just wrong. What really happened, imho, is SG and chamber forced Az to vote HR in an attempt to get the town to lynch HR. No one forced them.
Allow me to paraphrase RafK from HS mafia:
FOS: Sorryguy & Chamber with recommendation to vig until they're dead, dead, dead.
I'm almost tempted to vote them, because I'm so convinced they're mafia.
... I feel stupid...
Well, I think you know that I disagree with you there, CropCircles. Azrael we can lynch. This, once again, is a situation only a vigilante can deal with. Moreover, we go back to the conservation of vig kills. I don't think the vig should kill anyone that we can lynch ourselves.
Did you read MY post. At first we weren't told who we were coercing, we found out later in the day.At that time we made it fairly obvious.
Town/Mafia/Other - 14/6/3
Win/Lose/Tie - 11/12/0
Nk/lynched/Survived - 16/4/3
5 Azrael-Matjoeman, Highroller, LJustus, Armlx, Carrion Pigeons
1 Armlx-Rafaelk
1 Aurorasparrow- Aurorasparrow
1 Crippled Fist-Crippled Fist
1 Rafaelk-Draygn_Mage
9 Not Voting: Axelrod, Chamber, Cropcircles, JC, Fayul, Fadeblue, Rhinocero, SG, WoLG
10 to Lynch.
Confirm that HR has not used a double vote.
EDIT: Recently.
A bloodsoaked note was also found on the DYH murder scene. There's no reason a bodyguard would have such a note, but armlx could have thrown this detail in to help paint Hawkeye as Kevin.
Obviously, I too am waiting for armlx to explain himself, with a vote to follow if his explanation is insufficient.
Result on Axelrod: No mod PM, only banter.
Result on Hawkeye: Eerie presensce, gnawed on bloody note, pitch black room. (Role flavor is I check the mail/PM's as I am dropping them off).
Notes:
Any role that uses an ability gets a return PM from the mod stating what happened.
As RafK has said (I think), we are only 90% sure of each other's innocence.
What else can I really say besides the truth, which is what RafK has already said?
Isn't it? We win when all scum are dead.
neutral =/= anti-town; if we kill all the mafia I'm pretty sure we don't have to then go and kill them. And if they don't have nightkills we can take all the time we need.
The tactic just doesn't make sense to me. I could never imagine a smart player or a mafia with smart comrades attempting it except in the most desperate of circumstances. Maybe thats WIFOM but I don't care.
exactly. theyre either bad for the mafia or bad for both sides. Thus, theyre probably more of a hassle to the mafia alive.
an attempt to restate what I had said previously.
no, a valid one.
4th place at CCC&G Pro Tour
Chances of bad hands (<2 or >4 land):
21: 28.9%
22: 27.5%
23: 26.3%
24: 25.5%
25: 25.1%
26: 25.3%