I feel like a puppet-master. I say "passdog is scum" and immediately TWS and bertrand appear and proclaim "no, you are scum". I say "too bad you're not even consider the possibility I'm a townie", and all three go, "ooh, he might be a townie".
@Beaker: I will say that again. The third vote tell works. This is an empiric fact. Regardless of cyclic logic, the person who places the 3rd vote has more chances than anyone else of being scum. This was empirically proven by people who have far more experience in the game than all of us put together.
@passdog: where did you get the notion I even want you to remove your vote from me? Remeber, townies can sell their life cheaply. If by doing so, I out a mafia or two, or, if I may be so bold, three, it's all good.
First off, you always have a chance of being townie. When did I go "ooh, he might be a townie" As you put it? Yes, you could be townie, but you sure as hell aren't acting like one, thus I vote for you. Also, empirically proven? That is hardly empirical proof, you're holding on to something that doesn't make much sense. Sure, Passdog may be more suspicous because of it, but it hardly warrants a lynch.
If you think I am attacking passdog ONLY because he was the 3rd vote, you must've been not paying attention throughout the last few pages.
No, I know you've had other reasons. I've explained to you why these reasons aren't lynchworthy, yet you're still trying to convince us he is scum. Why?
i think that the "third vote is scummy" is craplogic, its one of the biggest examples of WIFOM ive seen in a while
Yes.
Quote from Puchik2 »
Aha. passdog and his supporters realized something must be up. Is it because they realized that they might win the battle but lose the war? So now they are giving me an honorable way to retreat by stating I changed my mind. Whatever.
I'm not supporting Passdog, I'm against YOU.
My vote is standing and it will take much more that that to change it.
Quote from Puchik2 »
I feel like a puppet-master. I say "passdog is scum" and immediately TWS and bertrand appear and proclaim "no, you are scum". I say "too bad you're not even consider the possibility I'm a townie", and all three go, "ooh, he might be a townie".
@Beaker: I will say that again. The third vote tell works. This is an empiric fact. Regardless of cyclic logic, the person who places the 3rd vote has more chances than anyone else of being scum. This was empirically proven by people who have far more experience in the game than all of us put together.
@passdog: where did you get the notion I even want you to remove your vote from me? Remeber, townies can sell their life cheaply. If by doing so, I out a mafia or two, or, if I may be so bold, three, it's all good.
I'm not saying, ooo he might be a townie. You seem extremely scummy. Of course it's possible, to a certain extent that you're a moroning townie but I'm willing to take the risk. Stop shoving words in my mouth.
3rd vote thing might be a place where mafia TENDS to vote, but casting the 3rd vote does not NECESSARILY mean scum. That is CrapLogic(tm).
Right now I think even you know that bertrand, TWS, Passdog can't be mafia. I know if I was scum I wouldn't put my whole team in one boat. That would be moronic.
For now I will -sigh ( ) - agree with TWS.
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Puchik isn't really scummy IMO. He reminds me of me when I was after TWS and no one would believed me. Give me a bit. I'm going to do a bit of a PBPA on Passdog so we get this damn thing cleared up.
Wow, I'm away from the computer for 4 hours and there is another 5 pages. Okay, so I think I have something to say. After reading this entire argument betweeen Putchik and Passdog (and defenders), Personally I really think that Putchik has not provided a sufficient defense. He is acting really scummy to me simply blowing off everyone's attack and trying to shift the debate to Passdog. Personally, I think that Passdog's remarks have been sufficiently defended, so I think Putchik's continous attacks are undeserved and going too far. There are two more things I would like to mention
Quote from putchik »
I feel like a puppet-master. I say "passdog is scum" and immediately TWS and bertrand appear and proclaim "no, you are scum". I say "too bad you're not even consider the possibility I'm a townie", and all three go, "ooh, he might be a townie".
@Beaker: I will say that again. The third vote tell works. This is an empiric fact. Regardless of cyclic logic, the person who places the 3rd vote has more chances than anyone else of being scum. This was empirically proven by people who have far more experience in the game than all of us put together.
@passdog: where did you get the notion I even want you to remove your vote from me? Remeber, townies can sell their life cheaply. If by doing so, I out a mafia or two, or, if I may be so bold, three, it's all good.
It has not been "emperically proven by better players" as you blithely state. I think Beaker wrote an excellent response, which I will show you:
Quote from beaker »
puchik, your post just proves that "third vote=scum" is WIFOM
the WIFOM argument goes like this
"cause scum know that the 3rd vote is scummy, and so they wont do it
but then we know that they wont do it, because they know its scummy
but then we know that the 3rd vote is ok
then they'll make the 3rd vote
then the 3rd vote'll be scummy" and so on
Definately a WIFOM arguement. It might have been true in one game, but just because your mafia friend advised you that way and because it says so on the mafiascum.net website does not make it true. Give me examples from the past 10 mafia games and then I'll start to believe you but it has not been "emperically proven." Emperically proven means it has been proven by looking at the past as evidence. Sure, there have been some games where the third vote was scum, but there have been plenty more when the third vote wasn't scum. Don't take speculation as fact. It makes you look even more scummy.
The other thing I'd like to point out was that interestingly, Putchik was the person who put the most pressure on serge for information at the beginning (for an example, see post 107 This seems kind of like a scummy tell as he was trying to root out the doctor as soon as he could, so they could get him lynched.
I really don't trust Putchik right now, and until he puts up a much better defense, he is getting my vote. Vote Putchik2
Un-FOS Oasis. Looks like people keep forgetting this is Newbie Mafia; mistakes are abound. That said, I think I'll
FOS Passdog for rather inciting riotous posts, and while I'm pointing fingers I'll head one over for a FOS Puchik2. Seriously, you two need to calm down. I have my suspicions, but those are the two major ones I want to put out there. Oh, and beaker, I concur when it comes to the circular logic of posting position. I listen to what people have to say, not how long it takes them to say it. That's probably because I am very analytical, and type, well, not slow, but not very fast compared to my friends.
In troubled times, look to Treebeard. Yes, even in a desert.
"It takes a long time to say anything in old Entish, and we don't say anything unless it's worth taking a long time to say."
And I wanted to ask something in my last post that I forgot: In role pm's, if you are mafia, does it tell you who the other mafia were?
Because if it doesn't then the whole "betrand and TWS are in a conspiracy with Passdog" argument fails miserably
It does, so you know who to communicate with at night. Either way, even if Puchik is town, which I highly doubt, I can assure you that Passdog, Bertrand and I wouldn't be the mafia, as uniting all the mafia members on the first day would be idiotic. Then again, one can argue that is WIFOM as well, I suppose, but it still would be a very unwise move.
Berrand votes serge for starting No Lynch in 53
Pergrine Falcon votes and unvotes Serge in one post in 56.
Bertrand unvotes in 57.
Puchik unvotes Serge in 62 (voted at beginning of game)
Machin Shin votes Oasis in 72
avabob votes Oasis in 74
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=693789&postcount=77
Unvotes Serge, saying that Serge is going to have to explain his comments regardless of votes (realizes he is only one voting, not much pressure) Votes Oasis. No explanation. Probably for lack of better target. Seems a bit scummy here. IMO Oasis wasn't really being scummy, just probably confused a bit since he probably went from first page of random votes to page five. We'll defer it to newbness.
Machin Shin unvotes, blaming Oasis' post to newbness.
IMO I don't think that Passdog is as suspicious as I first thought when I read Puchik2's accusation since I've been reread the thread. The only scum-tell that I've really seen is his voting of Oasis. He doesn't give a reason (though I guess it's sorta obvious) and before he says he doesn't want to be hasty, so I guess this contradicts a bit. Then after he says Vote Stands in 101 because Oasis is best canditate. No explanation still from him.
Puchik2 seemed a bit aggressive, but that may be just how he plays as he's been aggressive the entire game.
The Problem I have with Puchik is his inabilty to see that his attack on Passdog is unfounded, then going hyper defensive when we question him about it. Oasis seems as neutral as anyone else, as the first time I say mafia, I thought it was just what I did at theater camp, which is no discussion, just sit in a circle and vote. Admittedly, he may still be scum, but I don't call that a scum tell.
Passdog seems completely neutral. Why is he suspicious? OK, I've read his bio that you just wrote and guess what... it seems NORMAL.
How many votes does Puchik have now?
I didn't say it wasn't normal. I said the only scummy part was when he voted Oasis when he said he wasn't going to be hasty. And IMO I thought that Oasis was just making newb moves. That's the ONLY part I found scummy.
And what's the <snip> thing mean. I've seen people use it and I've no idea.
I didn't say it wasn't normal. I said the only scummy part was when he voted Oasis when he said he wasn't going to be hasty. And IMO I thought that Oasis was just making newb moves. That's the ONLY part I found scummy.
And what's the <snip> thing mean. I've seen people use it and I've no idea.
Means I wanted to quote your post but didn't feel like having that long thing in my post. It means I cut out part of your quote.
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puchik, your post just proves that "third vote=scum" is WIFOM
the WIFOM argument goes like this
"cause scum know that the 3rd vote is scummy, and so they wont do it
but then we know that they wont do it, because they know its scummy
but then we know that the 3rd vote is ok
then they'll make the 3rd vote
then the 3rd vote'll be scummy" and so on
I will repeat AGAIN; this cyclic logic is something that an inexperienced mafia player could say (no offense, avabob and beaker). In real life, the mafia are often either FORCED to place the third vote to get the wagon moving whether they like it or not, or TEMPTED to do so to the point of being unable to resist. Empirically proven.
Just read the "common tells" in the link posted by the mod. I did not invent this. It clearly says "third vote on a wagon is more likely to be mafia". I knew it before I read the link, as I was told by some1 experienced. The link was posted AFTER I brought the argument, I did not base the argument on it. The document in the link was written by people with far more experience in mafia than all of us together.
@mmod: I'm agressive. Yes.
@avabob: I suggest you better familiarize yourself with the game of mafia, maybe read up on an old game. You seem to be unfamiliar with the game to the point of embarassement (do the mafia know who the other mafia are?).
@everyone else: I did not consider my accusation of passdog to be particularly credible at first. At the most, I thought, I'll rattle the cage and see who asks for a banana. Maybe someone will hop on the wagon, maybe not, maybe I'll get him lynched, maybe myself, who knows. However, the more the debate between myself and the passdog/TWS/bertrand trio progressed, I have convinced myself that I have, in fact, struck solid gold. With passdog's reply of "puchik2 must be mafia" and the way the other two have been backing him up, I am certain we're looking at a major treasure trove here.
Sure, NOW the two defenders of passdog are trying to distance themselves from him. Did they do it in the 2-3 pages when the debate raged on? I think not.
Make of it what you will.
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Won/Lost/Draw/Ongoing: 5/1/1/2 Town/Scum/Ongoing: 7/1/1
Survived/Lynched/Nightkilled/Ongoing: 4/2/2/1
Overall lynched in my games: 8 allies, 15 enemies
I will repeat one more time: I NEVER BACKED UP Passdog. (no offence) but I couldn't care less about him right now.
@ your comment on avabob: This is NEWB mafia.
Maybe Passdog is slighly more likely to be mafia for the third vote. But we have NO other evidence.
YOU, on the other hand, keep attacking him, and we and you know you have no case.
Why would you make an uncredible accusation in the first place? Scum-my. Why would you risk getting him lynched? As TWS said, the 3 mafia would not all gang together like this. This is pure CrapLogicTM.
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This is how I see it:
Puchik2 sees Passdog as scum. Advocates it aggressively.
TWS and bertrand jumps to defend rather aggressively.
There is at least scum between the four of them.
I would say more than one. Just remember, if I'm lynched today and proven townie, and if your three next lynches are NOT passdog/TWS/bertrand, then you all DESERVE to lose.
Also, I would like to say this:
If both passdog and myself were innocent, it would be humanly impossible for one of the mafia not to state something along the lines of: "Ooohkay, let's just lynch Puchik and get this day over with. If he's good, let's lynch passdog next".
Really. Impossible. There are probably three mafia (maybe four?), who cannot communicate during day, and the temptation would be way too much for at least one to resist. If of course both passdog and I are innocent. Yet, no one said that. Why?
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Won/Lost/Draw/Ongoing: 5/1/1/2 Town/Scum/Ongoing: 7/1/1
Survived/Lynched/Nightkilled/Ongoing: 4/2/2/1
Overall lynched in my games: 8 allies, 15 enemies
I only assumed you were defending Passdog because you were attacking his attacker and I'm pretty sure TWS was defending him so I just sorta grouped you guys together.
I am indeed defending Passdog, as Puchik's attack on him has been totally flimsy. I'm still open to voting for him if he acts scummy, but right now Puchik is the one behaving extremely scummy.
@ Puchik: Even if you die and are town(unlikely), the chances that three mafia would unite against one target on the first day is slim to none, because, as I said, its just dumb.
Umm... MinorFOS: Bertrand You're getting hyperdefensive too dude, as I said to Puchik, calm it down.
I have nothing to defend.. I'm just getting annoyed that after I've said about 8 times I'm not defending Passdog, mmod comes out and says "hey bert is defending passdog everyone!!1!"
Got a little annoyed. I've cooled down now.
I'm also frustrated cause I'm trying to do research for school and I need it in French and nothing's coming up.
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Really. Impossible. There are probably three mafia (maybe four?), who cannot communicate during day, and the temptation would be way too much for at least one to resist. If of course both passdog and I are innocent. Yet, no one said that. Why?
Why? Because you're scum.
Clear enough?
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Just read the "common tells" in the link posted by the mod. I did not invent this. It clearly says "third vote on a wagon is more likely to be mafia". I knew it before I read the link, as I was told by some1 experienced. The link was posted AFTER I brought the argument, I did not base the argument on it. The document in the link was written by people with far more experience in mafia than all of us together.
yes, "more likely to be mafia." IT DOESN'T GAURENTEE MAFIA. Therefore it isn't empirically proven. Read what you post please.
Quote from Puchik2 »
@avabob: I suggest you better familiarize yourself with the game of mafia, maybe read up on an old game. You seem to be unfamiliar with the game to the point of embarassement (do the mafia know who the other mafia are?).
I am a newb, and that is why I am entered in "NEWB MAFIA #5." Come on. And just because I said that one comment means I am embarrasing myself. No, it just shows a little unfamiliarity with the game, which I admit. And please refrain from using Ad hominem attacks to defend yourself. It kind of makes you look like an a**hole
Quote from Putchnik2 »
@everyone else: I did not consider my accusation of passdog to be particularly credible at first. At the most, I thought, I'll rattle the cage and see who asks for a banana. Maybe someone will hop on the wagon, maybe not, maybe I'll get him lynched, maybe myself, who knows. However, the more the debate between myself and the passdog/TWS/bertrand trio progressed, I have convinced myself that I have, in fact, struck solid gold. With passdog's reply of "puchik2 must be mafia" and the way the other two have been backing him up, I am certain we're looking at a major treasure trove here.
Yes, you did consider his accusation credible, that's why you kept pursuing it. And simply because someone agreed with someone you viewed (unjustly) as scum, that means that they have to be sum. Has it ever crossed your mind that they think he's correct simply because he is? Each of Passdog's actions were justified, as he quoted
You still haven't provided a defense which I think you would be advised to do.
But the game doesn't end on Day 1, bertrand. You will ALL be outed, my dear boy.
[/quote=TWS]Umm... MinorFOS: Bertrand [/quote]
Oh my god! After 4 pages of presenting a unified front with bertrand and passgod, he ... he ... oh, the horror, he FOSes him! Give the man an Oscar, I say!
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My Mafia stats:
Won/Lost/Draw/Ongoing: 5/1/1/2 Town/Scum/Ongoing: 7/1/1
Survived/Lynched/Nightkilled/Ongoing: 4/2/2/1
Overall lynched in my games: 8 allies, 15 enemies
But the game doesn't end on Day 1, bertrand. You will ALL be outed, my dear boy.
[/quote=TWS]Umm... MinorFOS: Bertrand
Oh my god! After 4 pages of presenting a unified front with bertrand and passgod, he ... he ... oh, the horror, he FOSes him! Give the man an Oscar, I say![/quote]
Stop acting overdramatic. I FOSed bertrand because he was beginning to act like you. Scummy.
I am a newb, and that is why I am entered in "NEWB MAFIA #5." Come on. And just because I said that one comment means I am embarrasing myself. No, it just shows a little unfamiliarity with the game, which I admit. And please refrain from using Ad hominem attacks to defend yourself. It kind of makes you look like an a**hole
That was a test and you passed. If you were a mafia pretending not to know the mafia can communicate and know each other, you would have most likely say "uhm, sorry, I'm new, I'll read up". But you seem to be genuinely insulted, which makes me almost (almost, since in this game there are no certainties) sure you're town.
I needed to take your emotions to the extreme to test your reaction. I apologize for insulting you while doing so. It was all in-game, nothing personal.
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Won/Lost/Draw/Ongoing: 5/1/1/2 Town/Scum/Ongoing: 7/1/1
Survived/Lynched/Nightkilled/Ongoing: 4/2/2/1
Overall lynched in my games: 8 allies, 15 enemies
That was a test and you passed. If you were a mafia pretending not to know the mafia can communicate and know each other, you would have most likely say "uhm, sorry, I'm new, I'll read up". But you seem to be genuinely insulted, which makes me almost (almost, since in this game there are no certainties) sure you're town.
I needed to take your emotions to the extreme to test your reaction. I apologize for insulting you while doing so. It was all in-game, nothing personal.
Stop fooling around and defend yourself.
If you don't I will assume you're admitting to being scum.
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bertrand,
Please stop with the melodramatic threats. "assume you're admitting to being a scum", sheesh. What do you think happens tonight when I'm lynched and shown innocent?! Who will be investigated by the cop?
Do you think the cop will investigate avabob? Or beaker maybe? Or perchange he will try to detect mmod or someone else? No, my dear boy, once I'm lynched and found innocent, the cop will investigate one of the 3 people who were attacking me the hardest. passodog, TWS, you. Not necessarily in that order.
Get ready to talk your way out of the worst morning of your life.
@everyone else: once I am up to 5 votes, could you please NOT add the lynching vote before I am allowed to post my final analysis of the situation? When I'm shown town, hopefully my anaysis will help you, knowing it comes from someone on your side. And if some of those voting for me really think I'm mafia - what the heck have you got to lose?! If I'm mafia, just ignore anything I'll say.
Just let me speak b4 I'm lynched, ok?
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My Mafia stats:
Won/Lost/Draw/Ongoing: 5/1/1/2 Town/Scum/Ongoing: 7/1/1
Survived/Lynched/Nightkilled/Ongoing: 4/2/2/1
Overall lynched in my games: 8 allies, 15 enemies
Sorry for double posting, but this comes from someone with the mentality of a mafia.
You see, a mafia's life is EXPENSIVE, cause there are only 3 of them. They need to DEFEND THEMSELVES. I don't need to defend myself, because my life is CHEAP. There are 8 of us. And if in my death I generate enough information to catch a mafia or 2, maybe confirm a townie or 2, that's a great deal. For a townie, self-preservation is not above all. Information-generation is. Mafia value self-preservation.
I honestly think bertrand is so absolved in the self-preservation mentality that he just doesn't get it that some people don't need self preservation. I don't need to defend myself. I need you, bertrand, and your pals, to attack me and thus generate more info for the town to dwell on during day 2.
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My Mafia stats:
Won/Lost/Draw/Ongoing: 5/1/1/2 Town/Scum/Ongoing: 7/1/1
Survived/Lynched/Nightkilled/Ongoing: 4/2/2/1
Overall lynched in my games: 8 allies, 15 enemies
If you're mafia, we've stuck gold and will probably win.
If you're town, the cop will investigate me or TWS. I'd agree with that move. TWS I can't be sure (I have no reason to or not to suspect him) but I'm not worried about a cop claim on me tomorrow morning.
What does slightly worry me is that you will be town and mafia will claim cop on me... I'll deal with that if it happens.
My vote stands though.
So fine. Puchik refuses to defend himself. Any questions?
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What does slightly worry me is that you will be town and mafia will claim cop on me... I'll deal with that if it happens.
Commencing preparations already? You KNOW I'm town, so you're talking your way out of the mess already... It is a dumb idea for a mafia to claim cop just to lynch you, since it not only outs the mafia but also confirms the REAL cop. The cop who will find you guilty tomorrow will be the real one, worry not.
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My Mafia stats:
Won/Lost/Draw/Ongoing: 5/1/1/2 Town/Scum/Ongoing: 7/1/1
Survived/Lynched/Nightkilled/Ongoing: 4/2/2/1
Overall lynched in my games: 8 allies, 15 enemies
And again, bertrand exhibits mafia self preservation mentality. Had he been town, he would have been happy at the possibility of a false-cop claiming just to lynch him. Trading 1-for-1 is a great deal for the town. If we could always trade 1-for-1, we would always win. But no, the possibility of a false cop "worries" him. Whatever.
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My Mafia stats:
Won/Lost/Draw/Ongoing: 5/1/1/2 Town/Scum/Ongoing: 7/1/1
Survived/Lynched/Nightkilled/Ongoing: 4/2/2/1
Overall lynched in my games: 8 allies, 15 enemies
At this point in the game, any cop who claims to find scum and reveals it is worth it. We get a scum either way if he lies or not, and the doc can protect him that night.
just so you guys know, I'm visiting family for the next couple of days and I'll have intermittent internet access. And then I'm going to other family after that (grandparents in florida) and I won't have access. So just letting you guys know why I won't be that active this week
Why defend, avabob?
I have outed three highly suspicious people (passdog, bertrand, TWS), and confirmed one townie (you). Not a bad work for a day.
I have nothing to defend myself with. I am a townie, a regular one, with no abilities. I used to work for Microsoft before this post-Apocalyptic stuff went down. Since my computer skills are useless in the desert, I am a vanilla townie.
THE ONLY DEFENSE I HAVE IS THE WAY THAT PEOPLE ARE ATTACKING ME. As I said before, the vanilla townie life is cheap. I don't mind trading for one of them.
If I do not get lynched today, I am certainly getting the cop treatment tonight. And tomorrow morning, you will see that none of the present will rush in to vote for me. Hence, the cop will find me innocent. No worries.
If I am getting lynched today, please be sure to remember the hornet's nest that I have stirred. Cop investigations tonight, lynch tomorrow, the whole thing.
Defend myself?! Hah! They should defend themselves, not me.
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My Mafia stats:
Won/Lost/Draw/Ongoing: 5/1/1/2 Town/Scum/Ongoing: 7/1/1
Survived/Lynched/Nightkilled/Ongoing: 4/2/2/1
Overall lynched in my games: 8 allies, 15 enemies
@ Peregine Falcon and mystery meat of doom, I understand your votes towards me. I acted random and down right foolish to stir up some proverbial information. I would encourage you and everyone else to keep a close eye on me.
@ Puchik: You are casting Circular Logic with nothing in your graveyard. The third vote thoery is a good spot to hide for mafia, but nobody agrees that is worth a vote right now.
You are pushing against the grain.
Relentlessly pushing the "Third vote must be scum law of mafia", while noone considers it voteworthly. It seems the only hanging that happens on the first day is from bandwagoning. Someone has to pass the third vote.
betrand was the third vote on your bandwagon until Passdog unvoted for a hour and then later revoting making myself the third vote.
I suggest you come clean unless you wish to be lynched.
Also I wish for an official post count please. You know, not half an hour after you did the last one, LOL.
It seems sort of silly to ridicule a company for marketing efforts. Of course they are going to hype upcoming products, every company on the face of the planet does it, and it works, thats why they do it. There isn't really any sense complaining about it. If you don't like the marketing, ignore it.
1. Passdog, bertrand, and TWS, in that order, are the most likely mafia. They are the hornet's nest.
2. avabob is innocent. His insult seems genuine.
Now, for the rest.. of course if item (1) is true, then no point to analyze them, but still:
Oasis and serge exhibited cluelessness above and beyond the point of scuminess. Such attitude is all but impossible to fake. Although serge has been improving.
Machin Shin seems like a bona fide townie, with the shushing of the role discussion and all. Other townie tells as well, no time to read up on everything... gotta be quick before the 6th vote lands. TO BE CONTINUED.
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My Mafia stats:
Won/Lost/Draw/Ongoing: 5/1/1/2 Town/Scum/Ongoing: 7/1/1
Survived/Lynched/Nightkilled/Ongoing: 4/2/2/1
Overall lynched in my games: 8 allies, 15 enemies
mmod: no tells either way. Often online, yet seems cautious to jump on my wagon. If he's mafia, have no clue who he's with. But he's probably not.
Beaker: lurks too much, as he did in his 2 previous games... in which he was mafia. Joined into attacking me after the leading trio. He's my 4th-most-likely mafia.
Peregrine Falcon: no tells either way, no comittal posts, hard to say.
Did I forget anyone?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Mafia stats:
Won/Lost/Draw/Ongoing: 5/1/1/2 Town/Scum/Ongoing: 7/1/1
Survived/Lynched/Nightkilled/Ongoing: 4/2/2/1
Overall lynched in my games: 8 allies, 15 enemies
Finally, whoever casts the 6th vote on me: expect a tough ride tomorrow. The trio will try to portray you as mafia. Although of course you might be... so I'm not sure I should give you advice how to deal with the pressure. Just do your best.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Mafia stats:
Won/Lost/Draw/Ongoing: 5/1/1/2 Town/Scum/Ongoing: 7/1/1
Survived/Lynched/Nightkilled/Ongoing: 4/2/2/1
Overall lynched in my games: 8 allies, 15 enemies
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First off, you always have a chance of being townie. When did I go "ooh, he might be a townie" As you put it? Yes, you could be townie, but you sure as hell aren't acting like one, thus I vote for you. Also, empirically proven? That is hardly empirical proof, you're holding on to something that doesn't make much sense. Sure, Passdog may be more suspicous because of it, but it hardly warrants a lynch.
No, I know you've had other reasons. I've explained to you why these reasons aren't lynchworthy, yet you're still trying to convince us he is scum. Why?
Yes.
I'm not supporting Passdog, I'm against YOU.
My vote is standing and it will take much more that that to change it.
I'm not saying, ooo he might be a townie. You seem extremely scummy. Of course it's possible, to a certain extent that you're a moroning townie but I'm willing to take the risk. Stop shoving words in my mouth.
3rd vote thing might be a place where mafia TENDS to vote, but casting the 3rd vote does not NECESSARILY mean scum. That is CrapLogic(tm).
Right now I think even you know that bertrand, TWS, Passdog can't be mafia. I know if I was scum I wouldn't put my whole team in one boat. That would be moronic.
For now I will -sigh ( ) - agree with TWS.
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It has not been "emperically proven by better players" as you blithely state. I think Beaker wrote an excellent response, which I will show you:
Definately a WIFOM arguement. It might have been true in one game, but just because your mafia friend advised you that way and because it says so on the mafiascum.net website does not make it true. Give me examples from the past 10 mafia games and then I'll start to believe you but it has not been "emperically proven." Emperically proven means it has been proven by looking at the past as evidence. Sure, there have been some games where the third vote was scum, but there have been plenty more when the third vote wasn't scum. Don't take speculation as fact. It makes you look even more scummy.
The other thing I'd like to point out was that interestingly, Putchik was the person who put the most pressure on serge for information at the beginning (for an example, see post 107 This seems kind of like a scummy tell as he was trying to root out the doctor as soon as he could, so they could get him lynched.
I really don't trust Putchik right now, and until he puts up a much better defense, he is getting my vote. Vote Putchik2
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FOS Passdog for rather inciting riotous posts, and while I'm pointing fingers I'll head one over for a FOS Puchik2. Seriously, you two need to calm down. I have my suspicions, but those are the two major ones I want to put out there. Oh, and beaker, I concur when it comes to the circular logic of posting position. I listen to what people have to say, not how long it takes them to say it. That's probably because I am very analytical, and type, well, not slow, but not very fast compared to my friends.
In troubled times, look to Treebeard. Yes, even in a desert.
"It takes a long time to say anything in old Entish, and we don't say anything unless it's worth taking a long time to say."
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Sorry about that
And I wanted to ask something in my last post that I forgot: In role pm's, if you are mafia, does it tell you who the other mafia were?
Because if it doesn't then the whole "betrand and TWS are in a conspiracy with Passdog" argument fails miserably
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It does, so you know who to communicate with at night. Either way, even if Puchik is town, which I highly doubt, I can assure you that Passdog, Bertrand and I wouldn't be the mafia, as uniting all the mafia members on the first day would be idiotic. Then again, one can argue that is WIFOM as well, I suppose, but it still would be a very unwise move.
Says that Puchik2 seems over the top. Jokingly (I think) calls Puchik2 a hypocrite. Not much.
Berrand votes serge for starting No Lynch in 53
Pergrine Falcon votes and unvotes Serge in one post in 56.
Bertrand unvotes in 57.
Puchik unvotes Serge in 62 (voted at beginning of game)
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=693174&postcount=58
FOS's Serge , says no hasty decisions from him.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=693321&postcount=69
Votes for Serge for pressure because there are no votes for him even though we have lots of people FOSing him and asking him to clarify. This is around 1 hour after the previous post.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=693358&postcount=73
FOS's Oasis, understandable considering Oasis' play.
Machin Shin votes Oasis in 72
avabob votes Oasis in 74
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=693789&postcount=77
Unvotes Serge, saying that Serge is going to have to explain his comments regardless of votes (realizes he is only one voting, not much pressure) Votes Oasis. No explanation. Probably for lack of better target. Seems a bit scummy here. IMO Oasis wasn't really being scummy, just probably confused a bit since he probably went from first page of random votes to page five. We'll defer it to newbness.
Machin Shin unvotes, blaming Oasis' post to newbness.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=695044&postcount=101
Retorts to Puchik2's accusation of third vote. Says logic is flawed. Says vote stands because Oasis is best candidate atm.
IMO I don't think that Passdog is as suspicious as I first thought when I read Puchik2's accusation since I've been reread the thread. The only scum-tell that I've really seen is his voting of Oasis. He doesn't give a reason (though I guess it's sorta obvious) and before he says he doesn't want to be hasty, so I guess this contradicts a bit. Then after he says Vote Stands in 101 because Oasis is best canditate. No explanation still from him.
Puchik2 seemed a bit aggressive, but that may be just how he plays as he's been aggressive the entire game.
Does anyone know the tags for links? Like I want Post 101: to stand for this bigass URL: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=695044&postcount=101
When
[*URL="magicthegathering.com"]magicthegathering.com[*/URL]
comes up, change the first one, the one in quotes, to what you want.
magicthegathering.com. I think. One can only hope, eh?
Click my sig (made by Grey) and get your own!
[*URL="magicthegathering.com"]magicthegathering.com[*/URL] =
[*URL="magicthegathering.com"]MaRo's Little Site[*/URL]
don't forget to remove the asterisks.
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Passdog seems completely neutral. Why is he suspicious? OK, I've read his bio that you just wrote and guess what... it seems NORMAL.
How many votes does Puchik have now?
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Or does it? :wise:
Apparently so?
huh?
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I didn't say it wasn't normal. I said the only scummy part was when he voted Oasis when he said he wasn't going to be hasty. And IMO I thought that Oasis was just making newb moves. That's the ONLY part I found scummy.
And what's the <snip> thing mean. I've seen people use it and I've no idea.
'Tings thinks it's too good for me.
Meanwhile, Puchik lurks, prolly still reading..
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Means I wanted to quote your post but didn't feel like having that long thing in my post. It means I cut out part of your quote.
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I will repeat AGAIN; this cyclic logic is something that an inexperienced mafia player could say (no offense, avabob and beaker). In real life, the mafia are often either FORCED to place the third vote to get the wagon moving whether they like it or not, or TEMPTED to do so to the point of being unable to resist. Empirically proven.
Just read the "common tells" in the link posted by the mod. I did not invent this. It clearly says "third vote on a wagon is more likely to be mafia". I knew it before I read the link, as I was told by some1 experienced. The link was posted AFTER I brought the argument, I did not base the argument on it. The document in the link was written by people with far more experience in mafia than all of us together.
@mmod: I'm agressive. Yes.
@avabob: I suggest you better familiarize yourself with the game of mafia, maybe read up on an old game. You seem to be unfamiliar with the game to the point of embarassement (do the mafia know who the other mafia are?).
@everyone else: I did not consider my accusation of passdog to be particularly credible at first. At the most, I thought, I'll rattle the cage and see who asks for a banana. Maybe someone will hop on the wagon, maybe not, maybe I'll get him lynched, maybe myself, who knows. However, the more the debate between myself and the passdog/TWS/bertrand trio progressed, I have convinced myself that I have, in fact, struck solid gold. With passdog's reply of "puchik2 must be mafia" and the way the other two have been backing him up, I am certain we're looking at a major treasure trove here.
Sure, NOW the two defenders of passdog are trying to distance themselves from him. Did they do it in the 2-3 pages when the debate raged on? I think not.
Make of it what you will.
Won/Lost/Draw/Ongoing: 5/1/1/2
Town/Scum/Ongoing: 7/1/1
Survived/Lynched/Nightkilled/Ongoing: 4/2/2/1
Overall lynched in my games: 8 allies, 15 enemies
Puchik2 sees Passdog as scum. Advocates it aggressively.
TWS and bertrand jumps to defend rather aggressively.
There is at least scum between the four of them.
Your going on the route, which doesn't make sense.
@ your comment on avabob: This is NEWB mafia.
Maybe Passdog is slighly more likely to be mafia for the third vote. But we have NO other evidence.
YOU, on the other hand, keep attacking him, and we and you know you have no case.
Why would you make an uncredible accusation in the first place? Scum-my. Why would you risk getting him lynched? As TWS said, the 3 mafia would not all gang together like this. This is pure CrapLogicTM.
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ARRGH!!! You and Puchik keep misinterpreting me! What are you doing this on purpose?
I AM NOT defending Passdog. No one has any case against him. I am ATTACKING PUCHIK.
Clear enough?!
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Umm... MinorFOS: Bertrand You're getting hyperdefensive too dude, as I said to Puchik, calm it down.
I would say more than one. Just remember, if I'm lynched today and proven townie, and if your three next lynches are NOT passdog/TWS/bertrand, then you all DESERVE to lose.
Also, I would like to say this:
If both passdog and myself were innocent, it would be humanly impossible for one of the mafia not to state something along the lines of: "Ooohkay, let's just lynch Puchik and get this day over with. If he's good, let's lynch passdog next".
Really. Impossible. There are probably three mafia (maybe four?), who cannot communicate during day, and the temptation would be way too much for at least one to resist. If of course both passdog and I are innocent. Yet, no one said that. Why?
Won/Lost/Draw/Ongoing: 5/1/1/2
Town/Scum/Ongoing: 7/1/1
Survived/Lynched/Nightkilled/Ongoing: 4/2/2/1
Overall lynched in my games: 8 allies, 15 enemies
@ Puchik: Even if you die and are town(unlikely), the chances that three mafia would unite against one target on the first day is slim to none, because, as I said, its just dumb.
I have nothing to defend.. I'm just getting annoyed that after I've said about 8 times I'm not defending Passdog, mmod comes out and says "hey bert is defending passdog everyone!!1!"
Got a little annoyed. I've cooled down now.
I'm also frustrated cause I'm trying to do research for school and I need it in French and nothing's coming up.
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Why? Because you're scum.
Clear enough?
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yes, "more likely to be mafia." IT DOESN'T GAURENTEE MAFIA. Therefore it isn't empirically proven. Read what you post please.
I am a newb, and that is why I am entered in "NEWB MAFIA #5." Come on. And just because I said that one comment means I am embarrasing myself. No, it just shows a little unfamiliarity with the game, which I admit. And please refrain from using Ad hominem attacks to defend yourself. It kind of makes you look like an a**hole
Yes, you did consider his accusation credible, that's why you kept pursuing it. And simply because someone agreed with someone you viewed (unjustly) as scum, that means that they have to be sum. Has it ever crossed your mind that they think he's correct simply because he is? Each of Passdog's actions were justified, as he quoted
You still haven't provided a defense which I think you would be advised to do.
vote stands
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But the game doesn't end on Day 1, bertrand. You will ALL be outed, my dear boy.
[/quote=TWS]Umm... MinorFOS: Bertrand [/quote]
Oh my god! After 4 pages of presenting a unified front with bertrand and passgod, he ... he ... oh, the horror, he FOSes him! Give the man an Oscar, I say!
Won/Lost/Draw/Ongoing: 5/1/1/2
Town/Scum/Ongoing: 7/1/1
Survived/Lynched/Nightkilled/Ongoing: 4/2/2/1
Overall lynched in my games: 8 allies, 15 enemies
Not for me it doesn't. Looks like you might no be so lucky.
(and wth do you mean outed?)
On another note, what is this, Name-Misspelling mafia? With Putchik2 and Passgod?
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Oh my god! After 4 pages of presenting a unified front with bertrand and passgod, he ... he ... oh, the horror, he FOSes him! Give the man an Oscar, I say![/quote]
Stop acting overdramatic. I FOSed bertrand because he was beginning to act like you. Scummy.
That was a test and you passed. If you were a mafia pretending not to know the mafia can communicate and know each other, you would have most likely say "uhm, sorry, I'm new, I'll read up". But you seem to be genuinely insulted, which makes me almost (almost, since in this game there are no certainties) sure you're town.
I needed to take your emotions to the extreme to test your reaction. I apologize for insulting you while doing so. It was all in-game, nothing personal.
Won/Lost/Draw/Ongoing: 5/1/1/2
Town/Scum/Ongoing: 7/1/1
Survived/Lynched/Nightkilled/Ongoing: 4/2/2/1
Overall lynched in my games: 8 allies, 15 enemies
Stop fooling around and defend yourself.
If you don't I will assume you're admitting to being scum.
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Please stop with the melodramatic threats. "assume you're admitting to being a scum", sheesh. What do you think happens tonight when I'm lynched and shown innocent?! Who will be investigated by the cop?
Do you think the cop will investigate avabob? Or beaker maybe? Or perchange he will try to detect mmod or someone else? No, my dear boy, once I'm lynched and found innocent, the cop will investigate one of the 3 people who were attacking me the hardest. passodog, TWS, you. Not necessarily in that order.
Get ready to talk your way out of the worst morning of your life.
@everyone else: once I am up to 5 votes, could you please NOT add the lynching vote before I am allowed to post my final analysis of the situation? When I'm shown town, hopefully my anaysis will help you, knowing it comes from someone on your side. And if some of those voting for me really think I'm mafia - what the heck have you got to lose?! If I'm mafia, just ignore anything I'll say.
Just let me speak b4 I'm lynched, ok?
Won/Lost/Draw/Ongoing: 5/1/1/2
Town/Scum/Ongoing: 7/1/1
Survived/Lynched/Nightkilled/Ongoing: 4/2/2/1
Overall lynched in my games: 8 allies, 15 enemies
Sorry for double posting, but this comes from someone with the mentality of a mafia.
You see, a mafia's life is EXPENSIVE, cause there are only 3 of them. They need to DEFEND THEMSELVES. I don't need to defend myself, because my life is CHEAP. There are 8 of us. And if in my death I generate enough information to catch a mafia or 2, maybe confirm a townie or 2, that's a great deal. For a townie, self-preservation is not above all. Information-generation is. Mafia value self-preservation.
I honestly think bertrand is so absolved in the self-preservation mentality that he just doesn't get it that some people don't need self preservation. I don't need to defend myself. I need you, bertrand, and your pals, to attack me and thus generate more info for the town to dwell on during day 2.
Won/Lost/Draw/Ongoing: 5/1/1/2
Town/Scum/Ongoing: 7/1/1
Survived/Lynched/Nightkilled/Ongoing: 4/2/2/1
Overall lynched in my games: 8 allies, 15 enemies
If you're mafia, we've stuck gold and will probably win.
If you're town, the cop will investigate me or TWS. I'd agree with that move. TWS I can't be sure (I have no reason to or not to suspect him) but I'm not worried about a cop claim on me tomorrow morning.
What does slightly worry me is that you will be town and mafia will claim cop on me... I'll deal with that if it happens.
My vote stands though.
So fine. Puchik refuses to defend himself. Any questions?
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Commencing preparations already? You KNOW I'm town, so you're talking your way out of the mess already... It is a dumb idea for a mafia to claim cop just to lynch you, since it not only outs the mafia but also confirms the REAL cop. The cop who will find you guilty tomorrow will be the real one, worry not.
Won/Lost/Draw/Ongoing: 5/1/1/2
Town/Scum/Ongoing: 7/1/1
Survived/Lynched/Nightkilled/Ongoing: 4/2/2/1
Overall lynched in my games: 8 allies, 15 enemies
Won/Lost/Draw/Ongoing: 5/1/1/2
Town/Scum/Ongoing: 7/1/1
Survived/Lynched/Nightkilled/Ongoing: 4/2/2/1
Overall lynched in my games: 8 allies, 15 enemies
I still agree with bertrand here, defend yourself Putchik
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I have outed three highly suspicious people (passdog, bertrand, TWS), and confirmed one townie (you). Not a bad work for a day.
I have nothing to defend myself with. I am a townie, a regular one, with no abilities. I used to work for Microsoft before this post-Apocalyptic stuff went down. Since my computer skills are useless in the desert, I am a vanilla townie.
THE ONLY DEFENSE I HAVE IS THE WAY THAT PEOPLE ARE ATTACKING ME. As I said before, the vanilla townie life is cheap. I don't mind trading for one of them.
If I do not get lynched today, I am certainly getting the cop treatment tonight. And tomorrow morning, you will see that none of the present will rush in to vote for me. Hence, the cop will find me innocent. No worries.
If I am getting lynched today, please be sure to remember the hornet's nest that I have stirred. Cop investigations tonight, lynch tomorrow, the whole thing.
Defend myself?! Hah! They should defend themselves, not me.
Won/Lost/Draw/Ongoing: 5/1/1/2
Town/Scum/Ongoing: 7/1/1
Survived/Lynched/Nightkilled/Ongoing: 4/2/2/1
Overall lynched in my games: 8 allies, 15 enemies
2 serge: Peregine Falcon, mystery meat of doom
1 Passdog: Puchik2
5 Puchik2: TWS, betrand, serge, Passdog, avabob
I see a couple things here.
@ Peregine Falcon and mystery meat of doom, I understand your votes towards me. I acted random and down right foolish to stir up some proverbial information. I would encourage you and everyone else to keep a close eye on me.
@ Puchik: You are casting Circular Logic with nothing in your graveyard. The third vote thoery is a good spot to hide for mafia, but nobody agrees that is worth a vote right now.
You are pushing against the grain.
Relentlessly pushing the "Third vote must be scum law of mafia", while noone considers it voteworthly. It seems the only hanging that happens on the first day is from bandwagoning. Someone has to pass the third vote.
betrand was the third vote on your bandwagon until Passdog unvoted for a hour and then later revoting making myself the third vote.
I suggest you come clean unless you wish to be lynched.
Also I wish for an official post count please. You know, not half an hour after you did the last one, LOL.
2. avabob is innocent. His insult seems genuine.
Now, for the rest.. of course if item (1) is true, then no point to analyze them, but still:
Oasis and serge exhibited cluelessness above and beyond the point of scuminess. Such attitude is all but impossible to fake. Although serge has been improving.
Machin Shin seems like a bona fide townie, with the shushing of the role discussion and all. Other townie tells as well, no time to read up on everything... gotta be quick before the 6th vote lands. TO BE CONTINUED.
Won/Lost/Draw/Ongoing: 5/1/1/2
Town/Scum/Ongoing: 7/1/1
Survived/Lynched/Nightkilled/Ongoing: 4/2/2/1
Overall lynched in my games: 8 allies, 15 enemies
Beaker: lurks too much, as he did in his 2 previous games... in which he was mafia. Joined into attacking me after the leading trio. He's my 4th-most-likely mafia.
Peregrine Falcon: no tells either way, no comittal posts, hard to say.
Did I forget anyone?
Won/Lost/Draw/Ongoing: 5/1/1/2
Town/Scum/Ongoing: 7/1/1
Survived/Lynched/Nightkilled/Ongoing: 4/2/2/1
Overall lynched in my games: 8 allies, 15 enemies
Won/Lost/Draw/Ongoing: 5/1/1/2
Town/Scum/Ongoing: 7/1/1
Survived/Lynched/Nightkilled/Ongoing: 4/2/2/1
Overall lynched in my games: 8 allies, 15 enemies