This really isn't the time to be making the case against LJustus (who I don't believe for a moment is really a mafia godfather - Agentdark isn't an idiot).
Azrael presented some good arguments earlier for not rushing to lynch Agentdark. However, those arguments all apply to gathering information from him. Given that we're going to lynch him tonight, almost all other business is better conducted tomorrow, because we'll have more information then.
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<Limited Clan>
I think AgentDark's accusation of Ljustus has all the marks of a false accusation: Made without much pressure, little logical justification for why it was made, a belated "sorry" to his mafia buddies.
These are the questions I want AD to answer. Some I've said before, and some are from silicon:
1. Can you give us at least one mafia name we can investigate? (That way we will be much more inclined to believe you about Ljustus)
2. In what specific way did Ljustus turn the mafia against you? Was it a PM or a post? If it was a post, which one?
3. Do you have the same win condition as armlx?
4. Do you die when armlx dies?
5. Does Metalhead target the mafia to be protected, or the townie to be roleblocked?
6. Who did you kill last night and why did you choose them rather than a more reputed player?
7. What incentive did Ljustus have to "sell you out"?
I give AgentDark until Wednesday to answer these questions before my vote goes back on him.
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Although since we don't have a role list in the first place, that isn't actually a relevant concern.
Also - how would the mafia know they'd killed a cop ? Unless you know something I don't, Mr. Puzzle ?
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<Limited Clan>
1. Would I be correct in assuming that your group killed SorryGuy? (I don't see metalheads and goths using dodgeballs as weapons.)
2. If so, why kill SG as opposed to, say, a good player? If you killed chamber, why him?
3. Does Metalhead target the person using the ability, or the mafioso he wants to protect?
1.Could you see a cult or serial killer using them either?
2.Hypothetically if we did kill sorryguy it would be to through suspicion off from us.
3.The Mafiaoso
1) Do you indeed have the same alternate win condition as Armlx
2) Do you die when Armlx dies?
1.Yes
2.No
1. Can you give us at least one mafia name we can investigate? (That way we will be much more inclined to believe you about Ljustus)
2. In what specific way did Ljustus turn the mafia against you? Was it a PM or a post? If it was a post, which one?
3. Do you have the same win condition as armlx?
4. Do you die when armlx dies?
5. Does Metalhead target the mafia to be protected, or the townie to be roleblocked?
6. Who did you kill last night and why did you choose them rather than a more reputed player?
7. What incentive did Ljustus have to "sell you out"?
1.I will think about it, but since I just revealed my own position as well as Ljustus I would not want to reveal another Mafia member.
2.First post I believe but I will get back to you on that one.
3.See 1 and 2
4.see 1 and 2
5.Mafia
6.See above
7.I have no Idea
Crippled fist:4 people are all of the mafia in our group.
Okay, that should do it.
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then shall the elder signs be shattered. Trade Thread
Vote: AgentDark. I'm through with you. CrippledFist has no reason to lie, therefore, you are a liar. Also, saying the mafia wanted to "throw suspicion off them" by killing SorryGuy makes less than no sense. You can die now.
@CrippledFist: It looks like there is a townie with an alternate win condition. Would it make any sense for a townie to also be a cult leader?
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True. . . strategically, it may have been better to wait, but I can hardly fault someone for presenting a one-for-one right off the bat. Perhaps, even knowing that AgentDark was scum, Armlx wasn't comfortable with trying to subtly steer the town to see it. We can't all be the master of the Cunning Plan (TM).
About waiting: I figured not waiting gives the town a better idea of the situation. Plus it gives the cops 2 nights to find scum.
About trying to subtly do it: I would rather give us as much info as possible to the town up front if I am going to die.
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Lol, Toe of Suspicion on Crippled, you can't trust people with lists
Since Dark is the doomed mafia guy and Crip had no reason to lie, I'm pretty sure there are five mafia in the group; but why would dark lie about that? hoping we'd lynch the 4th and then stop looking? O_o or leave the 4th alive while we kill the cult, not knowing there were 2 mafia instead of 1? Or was it just to screw with our heads...
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Quote from Sir Blakely »
turbo...my god. you have reached Uber-Nerd-Dom (TM).
So we have another game with a role that knows the number of win condition? The Booker? How common is this anyway, I never saw it before Random Mafia 1 and now we have it again? That's an amazing coincidence, unless Draygn just stole it.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Oh, and Az, thanks for the cheap shots once again.
Thanks for replying to my points, Puzzle.
Re-FOS Puzzle.
Quote from Axelrod »
So we have another game with a role that knows the number of win condition? The Booker? How common is this anyway, I never saw it before Random Mafia 1 and now we have it again? That's an amazing coincidence, unless Draygn just stole it.
Heh, I know what you mean. It's a challenge keeping the two games separate.
Or maybe it's just that my role objective is to kill Puzzle in all the games that I'm currently playing in...
Quote from Puzzle »
Except that I explained why.
As far as I could tell, your "bad feeling" was the only explanation you gave.
Quote from Puzzle »
As I explained in my re-vote, claims lose efficiency with each night passing, due to not receiving complete info upon death, but primarily, this day feels easy and nice but I doubt that all the next ones will provide a townie denouncing a scum as granted and I don't see much to analyze with AD's wagon (although there is a little). Therefore, the lack of effort put into making the most of this day makes me worried for the next, yes.
Possibly. But even if we accept that claims lose efficiency over time, that doesn't mean that everyone who someone has a "bad feeling" about should have to claim on day one.
Claims may lose some efficiency over time, but, on the other hand, the mafia will never know whether or not they are "safe" claiming a power role (baring some ability that lets them investigate the dead/expelled). That's going to make them cautious. It's a double-edged sword.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
FOS: AgentDark He's scum, I'll vote for him, no need to lynch right now...
JC, how can you even bother asking AgentDark questions? You have no hold over him at all, he will be lynched on day 1 as he has already claimed to be mafia, all of those answers could be lies.
I know, I just thought there could be a grain of truth in what he is saying. Now that I know he's even lying about the NUMBER of mafia, I consider him useless.
Quote from Kenji »
Turbo Crippled, thanks for the info. I'm not sure what to make of it but it confirms the presence of an SK and a cult... yay for us!
Preview edit: I don't think it does make sense for a townie to also be a cult leader... you'd have to be one OR the other... unless the cult leader made a sort of "new-townie"....
That's my point. 26 win conditions - 23 players = 3 players with alternate win conditions. Two of them are armlx and AgentDark, so there must be one other player with both a standard and a non-standard win condition. Could that player be a cult leader? It seems unlikely for a cult leader to have two WCs. Therefore, I think there is no cult.
Of course, Crippled Fist could be keeping something from us. Turbo changed the numbers to make himself look town, didn't he?
I think puzzle should drop his "wagons" against Az and Ljustus, which are based on a) the accusations of a confirmed scum and liar, and b) their congratulations of armlx for helping the town.
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Of course, Crippled Fist could be keeping something from us. Turbo changed the numbers to make himself look town, didn't he?
Actually in Random1, I didn't change the numbers. I received the list exactly as I posted it, but I knew it was already at least 1 off, because my win condition was removed *after* my character got the list. So my 'keeping something from you' was that I *didn't* change the numbers
I don't think the role is so powerful that he *has* to have a drawback like I did, but it's possible.
Oh, and unvote MoT, though I wish all of our lurkers would get in a 2nd post before the day ends...
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Quote from Sir Blakely »
turbo...my god. you have reached Uber-Nerd-Dom (TM).
I'm a little less inclined to buy the info given to us by Crippled Fist, partly because we just had this role in a game, and partly because in that game Turbo was not town.I think the info does argue against a cult though.
I think Crippled should be investigated. This will give us a huge insight into the workings of the game if it is true, and if its false it will make us 2 for 1 on scum lynched. Cop investigates CF tonight and if CF shows up innocent he says nothing. If he isn't cop comes out and exposes a mafia. The only situation CF isn't caught by this is if he is the Godfather.
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It's a double-edged sword really. If raf reveals the number, it gives the mafia a target, but it also gives us a 'cliff', so to speak. If he keeps it to himself and just warns us, it's harder for the mafia to actually to use posts to kill him, but it's also harder to test. I figure that keeping the number to himself is probably better. Also, I thought you were joking about him revealing the number, with that last line - 'It can't hurt (well...)'
Quote from silicon »
I'd like to ask Agentdark two simple questions:
1) Do you indeed have the same alternate win condition as Armlx
2) Do you die when Armlx dies?
Quote from Agentdark »
1.Yes
2.No
Wow dude, not how I expected you to answer at all.
Not that I would have tusted you if you had answered differently, or that I trust you with these answers.
Now on to my 'wild idea'. Please sit back, relax, keep your hands and arms inside the ride at all times, and keep an open mind. We will be venturing into a dangerous place, the realm of speculation.
I find it odd that a townie's life is tied to a mafia members, but the opposite is not true. Actually I find it odd that there's a townie that immediatly knows a mafia. Anyway, part of my 'wild idea' was based on the assumption that agent would die when armlx died. If agent had said he did die when armlx did, my idea was to consider lynching armlx instead. Now, before you start shouting, 'Scum! You just want to save your scum friend for another night!', listen to my reasoning. I have felt uneasy about armlx's claim pretty much from the beginning - part of it I've questioned before (more on that later), part of it I will explore now. First we must ask 'Why?' Why did armlx make this 'noble sacrifice' on day one? Why not wait it out a bit? I know what you're going to say armlx - 'I just wanted to do the best thing for the town'. Well I don't fully buy it. Call me paranoid, mad, insane, crazy, whatever. I figure there's another reason. So I figured, 'If agent dies at the same time as armlx, why not lynch armlx? We still get the same result.' I realize that agent could have lied (or could still be lying) about whether or not he dies with armlx. So what if we lynched armlx and agent didn't die? Well, hopefully agent would get shot in the night by a vig, but if that failed to happen, we just lynch agent the next day. If agent did die along with armlx, wow, thanks armlx and agent for being turthful. Now, back to why armlx revealed this - I think it's possible he could have some alternate win condition where he just has to kill - or survive past - certain charaters to win. What if he lucked out and the two that died the first night were on his list, and so was the guy who he knew? Possibly with one other? He could claim as he did, and possibly win night 2 - a chance that I could certainly understand someone taking.
All that said however, agent denied a death link back to armlx. Thus I feel that we should lynch agent today, and if armlx lives to see the night (which at this point, I've thought this over too much and wouldn't be surprised at all if he did live to the night) I suggest that the vig, if we have one, takes him out. If after all this is said and done, both agent and armlx are somehow town, well my head is going to explode.
@armlx:
Quote from armlx »
Silicon: My pro-town win is relevant as I win if I die but the town wins (thats how it normally works).
I'm not convinced you really believe this. According to this, the role you gave carrion pigeons in random 2 is an auto-win.
Sorry Silicon, but that doesn't really make any sense. Nor does it really matter as I can't imagine Armlx lying about this (especially once AgentDark confessed).
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Sorry Silicon, but that doesn't really make any sense. Nor does it really matter as I can't imagine Armlx lying about this (especially once AgentDark confessed).
I think that enough confusion has gone on...it's now time for action. Unvote, Vote: AgentDark
If Armix doesn't die along with him, and AD is town, then we lynch him tomorrow. If armix dies with him, and is mafia, then yay. If somehow AgentDark is un lynchable (Random thought) and they are both mafia, then they should be killed by a vig or the SK tonight. Otherwise, it seems to me that neither of them should be alive tomorrow.
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I think that enough confusion has gone on...it's now time for action. Unvote, Vote: AgentDark
If Armix doesn't die along with him, and AD is town, then we lynch him tomorrow. If armix dies with him, and is mafia, then yay. If somehow AgentDark is un lynchable (Random thought) and they are both mafia, then they should be killed by a vig or the SK tonight. Otherwise, it seems to me that neither of them should be alive tomorrow.
Excuse me? How is he town?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
A quick review of WellOfLostGnomes' posts has me somewhat concerned about him. He really hasn't been making very much sense for the whole game. Either that or he's just not paying attention.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
A quick review of WellOfLostGnomes' posts has me somewhat concerned about him. He really hasn't been making very much sense for the whole game. Either that or he's just not paying attention.
No, I just think I've over thought way to much...I (for some reason) am not completly sure that AD was truthful about his claim. It's kind of like someone saying "I never tell the truth" (I think WIFOM? [not sure on that]) I was trying to think of each possibility and any consequences that we might not have thought of.
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I really hope you're all getting the tendency to do little posts out of your system on this day
I get X posts per living person per day, mod posts excepted. I get told X before the start of each day. It's 21 today, so I'm not in any danger on this day. I sincerely hope this is a coincidence with the number of living players, because if we got down to 10 players and had to finish the day inside 100 posts I'd be totally screwed. Let alone getting a day done in 81, 64, 49, 36 posts...
Incidentally, that's not a claim. I haven't said ability or character. I like to get restrictions out early, they always seem so suspicious when people suddenly squeal when they're about to lynched that they acted suspiciously due to a restriction.
However, having had time to think, now that it's very apparent that there is a conclusion to lynch Agentdark and we've got a lot of room in my limit: if there's something you want to say that doesn't depend on info from tonight, say it now rather than tomorrow. I was getting a little worried that people were actually forgetting the admitted mafia there and starting to form bandwagons on other people and spawning a huge argument or something, but it looks like that's past. Still, see what I mean by the troubles from listening to a confirmed mafia? Next thing you know, someone will come out to expose that they investigated LJustus as an innocent and so he must be the Godfather
I find it very interesting that we have Turbo's Random Role in the game again. What the heck is a "booker" though, in High School? Never heard the term. Very suspicious claim to me as a result... the name is not an expected one and the role is unusual, so it seems designed to dodge counterclaims while being instantly accepted as town (as Turbo was in random). And it seeks to confirm that Agent was lying about the amount of mafia, but I'm not going to speculate on that because that way lies madness.
Yeah, the one thing that stops me FOS-ing Crippled Fist for this is that he'd have to be totally insane to make it up. As soon as our investigator is feeling a bit bored one night he's a prime target. (I know that technically he could be a godfather but in reality we don't even know for sure that there is a godfather - I trust Agentdark about as far as I could spit out a rat.)
I would FOS Silicon at this point, except that I've already got a FOS on him.
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<Limited Clan>
Silicon: Thanks for stating the obvious. If I lied, I get killed. Fos Silicon for sidetracking everyone with long post about nothing.
Plus, never trust a claimed mafia members posts.
I wasn't trying to sidetrack anyone, nor do I trust agentdark's posts, I specifically stated that. What I was doing was posting a theory I had mentioned in the post I made prior to it. I had figured agent would answer my questions in a certain way, and he didn't, which pretty much screwed up my wild idea. However, I felt it necessary to let the town know where I had been going. I feel that you are scum getting us to do your dirty work for you. It makes me very uneasy how quickly you claimed and how quickly the town believed you.
@bat - what is your reasoning for keeping your fos on me? I have answered the question that you wanted answered from when you originally put it on me, but this time you gave no reason
about crippled: well it's strange to see that ability in two games, and stranger still that the two games are back to back, but it fits flavorfully with the role.
I have answered the question that you wanted answered from when you originally put it on me, but this time you gave no reason
Sorry, I probably should have explained. Your carefully constructed "wild idea" seemed very suspicious to me. Split the possible outcomes into three cases:
1) armlx dies after Agentdark is lynched. In this case all bets are off.
2) armlx does not die after Agentdark is lynched. In this case he will either be vigged in the night or will himself be lynched the next day.
3) Agentdark does not die for some reason (currently very unlikely).
So what was the purpose of advancing your idea ? I can't see any possible motivation other than to delay Agentdark's death by persuading the town to lynch armlx first.
Of course it's more likely you were just burbling randomly. But that's the point of a FOS. It's not to say "You're guilty", it's more of a "Hmm...".
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<Limited Clan>
The Bookie. I mean the Bookie, not the Booker. That's what you get when posting tired. *covers himself*
As for the role, I was myself a bit amazed to see it. Your job to figure if you believe me or not. Also, if there's a cult, then the numbers have changed already a bit. I'm myself not thrilled about the investigation being 'wasted' on me as I can't see why a scum would invent something like this. The cop's choice though.
Kind of a scummy post here. Most people don't mess up their role names.
The main point of investigating you is that the only other time we've seen a role like this, it ended up being non-town.
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I'm not convinced you really believe this. According to this, the role you gave carrion pigeons in random 2 is an auto-win.
Now this is what I like to call "not true." See, carrions role in R2 said he must survive to the end of the game. He died, so he loses. The general town win condition is along the lines of "kill all scum." It does not imply that you must be alive at the end to claim victory.
I don't think silicons idea is too crazy, but it doesn't apply here because AD claimed to have the same WC as armlx. I highly doubt armlx would have that WC, plus an "eliminate these 3 players" type thing.
Let us see my #125 : Please remind me of the last time you complimented someone and then the last time you did so while neglecting the fact that this play was so off-time.
I'd disagree that his play was terribly off-time: if we'd waited till the end of the day, perhaps we could have partially cleared someone depending on who AD voted against. But on the other hand, we needed something to spark discussion. You're really making this out to be something worse than it is. It may not have been optimal play, but it was good play, and complimenting good play is rarely even a minor scum tell, except under extreme circumstances.
Quote from Puzzle »
This bad feeling has a ground for it. You FOSed me for not answering your questions right away, tell me why I shouldn't FOS you for trying to hide my argument under the carpet and say there is none ?
Because my alleged "hiding under the carpet" occurred after you were already attacking me for reasons that amount to little more than smoke and mirrors.
Armlx's information didn't spark the discussion, it sealed it for the day, if we exclude AD's comments after (for what they're worth). Today, we lynch scum, which is good, but tomorrow, we will have to start from scratch again analysis-wise (meaning apart from abilities and additional kills).
It ended the lynch discussion, but there's still plenty of reactions to analyze.
Quote from Puzzle »
What you call smoke and mirrors is something you normally care much more about as a townie (that's the image I have of you in any case).
Umm, I usually don't attack players for complimenting good play, even if there was a more optimal play.
Quote from Puzzle »
And you never complimented me (no answer actually called for on this one ).
My opinion now is we are getting nowhere. Puzzle and Az are bickering in both games and it is confusing me. I'd vote to end the day if I wasn't already voting.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Ok, wow. Four claims in the first day? (ok, one was a half-claim) This game has been a bit nuts. I think the day has pretty much wrapped itself up, and we've said what needs to be said. I'd be happy ending the day now, whenever everyone else is ready.
Th only things I really have to add is that I support the investigation of CF tonight. If we can get him confirmed, his info would be very valuable. I am sceptic of him though, I feel it may have been a ballsy move by a GF.
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"There is no royal road to science, and only those who do not dread the fatiguing climb
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx Cube
This thread has gone strange... I've got a 15th page but no posts on it...
40 PPP is tech. Try it out.
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"There is no royal road to science, and only those who do not dread the fatiguing climb
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx Cube
Who else reckons Azrael and Puzzle are both Mafia in this one ?
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<Limited Clan>
I dunno, I find their banter entertaining. The only 'scummy' thing about it is inflating post counts so they can lurk(doubtful for either of them), or confusing the heck out of people.
/me grabs a breadtangle of pizza while he waits for Dark's expulsion
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Quote from Sir Blakely »
turbo...my god. you have reached Uber-Nerd-Dom (TM).
I still say that this day is poor in info. And this argument dates from before Armlx's beans on the floor, so it just proves my point.
I can't even remember what we're arguing about in this thread, but I'm sure you're wrong.
Quote from Puzzle »
No, I said you normally don't compliment, which makes it even more bizarre when you do it lightly. I did't say you used the fact that someone complimenting whereas he never does normally as an argument.
Oh yeah, that. Actually, I've been known to compliment players before when they make exceptional plays: recently I heavily complimented Billking for a certain pro-town gambit he ran in a game over on MT (Axel can confirm).
Well if the day is about to end i will not waste a detailed annasis right now.
I sorry for my inactivety, it is because i have zero time.
I will post a very detailed anasis of the day during day 2.
Well if the day is about to end i will not waste a detailed annasis right now.
I sorry for my inactivety, it is because i have zero time.
I will post a very detailed anasis of the day during day 2.
Might as well post it now, you'd have to rewrite part of it based on whatever happens tonight(the person you thought scummiest turns out to be a dead doc tomorrow, etc). Or you could die, and we'd be without your analysis entirely. Either way, it doesn't have to be posted tomorrow to be discussed tomorrow.
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Azrael presented some good arguments earlier for not rushing to lynch Agentdark. However, those arguments all apply to gathering information from him. Given that we're going to lynch him tonight, almost all other business is better conducted tomorrow, because we'll have more information then.
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
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<Limited Clan>
These are the questions I want AD to answer. Some I've said before, and some are from silicon:
1. Can you give us at least one mafia name we can investigate? (That way we will be much more inclined to believe you about Ljustus)
2. In what specific way did Ljustus turn the mafia against you? Was it a PM or a post? If it was a post, which one?
3. Do you have the same win condition as armlx?
4. Do you die when armlx dies?
5. Does Metalhead target the mafia to be protected, or the townie to be roleblocked?
6. Who did you kill last night and why did you choose them rather than a more reputed player?
7. What incentive did Ljustus have to "sell you out"?
I give AgentDark until Wednesday to answer these questions before my vote goes back on him.
Also - how would the mafia know they'd killed a cop ? Unless you know something I don't, Mr. Puzzle ?
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
To Answer various peoples questions
1.Could you see a cult or serial killer using them either?
2.Hypothetically if we did kill sorryguy it would be to through suspicion off from us.
3.The Mafiaoso
1.Yes
2.No
1.I will think about it, but since I just revealed my own position as well as Ljustus I would not want to reveal another Mafia member.
2.First post I believe but I will get back to you on that one.
3.See 1 and 2
4.see 1 and 2
5.Mafia
6.See above
7.I have no Idea
Crippled fist:4 people are all of the mafia in our group.
Okay, that should do it.
for he is the messenger between the spheres
and the traveler between the realms of the living and the dead.
He shall summon forth the ancient ones
and wake them from their deathly slumber
then shall the elder signs be shattered.
Trade Thread
@CrippledFist: It looks like there is a townie with an alternate win condition. Would it make any sense for a townie to also be a cult leader?
About waiting: I figured not waiting gives the town a better idea of the situation. Plus it gives the cops 2 nights to find scum.
About trying to subtly do it: I would rather give us as much info as possible to the town up front if I am going to die.
Since Dark is the doomed mafia guy and Crip had no reason to lie, I'm pretty sure there are five mafia in the group; but why would dark lie about that? hoping we'd lynch the 4th and then stop looking? O_o or leave the 4th alive while we kill the cult, not knowing there were 2 mafia instead of 1? Or was it just to screw with our heads...
Thanks for replying to my points, Puzzle.
Re-FOS Puzzle.
Yep. A little bit too amazing, perhaps.
Heh, I know what you mean. It's a challenge keeping the two games separate.
Or maybe it's just that my role objective is to kill Puzzle in all the games that I'm currently playing in...
As far as I could tell, your "bad feeling" was the only explanation you gave.
Possibly. But even if we accept that claims lose efficiency over time, that doesn't mean that everyone who someone has a "bad feeling" about should have to claim on day one.
I know, I just thought there could be a grain of truth in what he is saying. Now that I know he's even lying about the NUMBER of mafia, I consider him useless.
That's my point. 26 win conditions - 23 players = 3 players with alternate win conditions. Two of them are armlx and AgentDark, so there must be one other player with both a standard and a non-standard win condition. Could that player be a cult leader? It seems unlikely for a cult leader to have two WCs. Therefore, I think there is no cult.
Of course, Crippled Fist could be keeping something from us. Turbo changed the numbers to make himself look town, didn't he?
I think puzzle should drop his "wagons" against Az and Ljustus, which are based on a) the accusations of a confirmed scum and liar, and b) their congratulations of armlx for helping the town.
fadeblue- CropCircles
armlx- WOLG, Agentdark
Agentdark- armlx, fadeblue, bateleur, Axelrod, Matjoeman, LJustus, RafaelK, JCSuperstar
MoT- turbo164
Not Voting
MoT, Puzzle, silicon, einsteinmonkey, creampuffeater, Azrael, Crippled Fist, & !Chucklez!
With 21 enrolled it takes 11 to expell.
Actually in Random1, I didn't change the numbers. I received the list exactly as I posted it, but I knew it was already at least 1 off, because my win condition was removed *after* my character got the list. So my 'keeping something from you' was that I *didn't* change the numbers
I don't think the role is so powerful that he *has* to have a drawback like I did, but it's possible.
Oh, and unvote MoT, though I wish all of our lurkers would get in a 2nd post before the day ends...
I'm cool with ending this day in the near future.
I'm a little less inclined to buy the info given to us by Crippled Fist, partly because we just had this role in a game, and partly because in that game Turbo was not town.I think the info does argue against a cult though.
[The Family]
It's a double-edged sword really. If raf reveals the number, it gives the mafia a target, but it also gives us a 'cliff', so to speak. If he keeps it to himself and just warns us, it's harder for the mafia to actually to use posts to kill him, but it's also harder to test. I figure that keeping the number to himself is probably better. Also, I thought you were joking about him revealing the number, with that last line - 'It can't hurt (well...)'
Wow dude, not how I expected you to answer at all.
Not that I would have tusted you if you had answered differently, or that I trust you with these answers.
Now on to my 'wild idea'. Please sit back, relax, keep your hands and arms inside the ride at all times, and keep an open mind. We will be venturing into a dangerous place, the realm of speculation.
I find it odd that a townie's life is tied to a mafia members, but the opposite is not true. Actually I find it odd that there's a townie that immediatly knows a mafia. Anyway, part of my 'wild idea' was based on the assumption that agent would die when armlx died. If agent had said he did die when armlx did, my idea was to consider lynching armlx instead. Now, before you start shouting, 'Scum! You just want to save your scum friend for another night!', listen to my reasoning. I have felt uneasy about armlx's claim pretty much from the beginning - part of it I've questioned before (more on that later), part of it I will explore now. First we must ask 'Why?' Why did armlx make this 'noble sacrifice' on day one? Why not wait it out a bit? I know what you're going to say armlx - 'I just wanted to do the best thing for the town'. Well I don't fully buy it. Call me paranoid, mad, insane, crazy, whatever. I figure there's another reason. So I figured, 'If agent dies at the same time as armlx, why not lynch armlx? We still get the same result.' I realize that agent could have lied (or could still be lying) about whether or not he dies with armlx. So what if we lynched armlx and agent didn't die? Well, hopefully agent would get shot in the night by a vig, but if that failed to happen, we just lynch agent the next day. If agent did die along with armlx, wow, thanks armlx and agent for being turthful. Now, back to why armlx revealed this - I think it's possible he could have some alternate win condition where he just has to kill - or survive past - certain charaters to win. What if he lucked out and the two that died the first night were on his list, and so was the guy who he knew? Possibly with one other? He could claim as he did, and possibly win night 2 - a chance that I could certainly understand someone taking.
All that said however, agent denied a death link back to armlx. Thus I feel that we should lynch agent today, and if armlx lives to see the night (which at this point, I've thought this over too much and wouldn't be surprised at all if he did live to the night) I suggest that the vig, if we have one, takes him out. If after all this is said and done, both agent and armlx are somehow town, well my head is going to explode.
@armlx:
I'm not convinced you really believe this. According to this, the role you gave carrion pigeons in random 2 is an auto-win.
I think that enough confusion has gone on...it's now time for action. Unvote, Vote: AgentDark
If Armix doesn't die along with him, and AD is town, then we lynch him tomorrow. If armix dies with him, and is mafia, then yay. If somehow AgentDark is un lynchable (Random thought) and they are both mafia, then they should be killed by a vig or the SK tonight. Otherwise, it seems to me that neither of them should be alive tomorrow.
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Excuse me? How is he town?
I agree with the call to investigate CF, so we know his info can be trusted.
Plus, never trust a claimed mafia members posts.
No, I just think I've over thought way to much...I (for some reason) am not completly sure that AD was truthful about his claim. It's kind of like someone saying "I never tell the truth" (I think WIFOM? [not sure on that]) I was trying to think of each possibility and any consequences that we might not have thought of.
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Awards:
Elegant Mafia: The Joker, Mafia MVP
I get X posts per living person per day, mod posts excepted. I get told X before the start of each day. It's 21 today, so I'm not in any danger on this day. I sincerely hope this is a coincidence with the number of living players, because if we got down to 10 players and had to finish the day inside 100 posts I'd be totally screwed. Let alone getting a day done in 81, 64, 49, 36 posts...
Incidentally, that's not a claim. I haven't said ability or character. I like to get restrictions out early, they always seem so suspicious when people suddenly squeal when they're about to lynched that they acted suspiciously due to a restriction.
However, having had time to think, now that it's very apparent that there is a conclusion to lynch Agentdark and we've got a lot of room in my limit: if there's something you want to say that doesn't depend on info from tonight, say it now rather than tomorrow. I was getting a little worried that people were actually forgetting the admitted mafia there and starting to form bandwagons on other people and spawning a huge argument or something, but it looks like that's past. Still, see what I mean by the troubles from listening to a confirmed mafia? Next thing you know, someone will come out to expose that they investigated LJustus as an innocent and so he must be the Godfather
I find it very interesting that we have Turbo's Random Role in the game again. What the heck is a "booker" though, in High School? Never heard the term. Very suspicious claim to me as a result... the name is not an expected one and the role is unusual, so it seems designed to dodge counterclaims while being instantly accepted as town (as Turbo was in random). And it seeks to confirm that Agent was lying about the amount of mafia, but I'm not going to speculate on that because that way lies madness.
I would FOS Silicon at this point, except that I've already got a FOS on him.
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
I wasn't trying to sidetrack anyone, nor do I trust agentdark's posts, I specifically stated that. What I was doing was posting a theory I had mentioned in the post I made prior to it. I had figured agent would answer my questions in a certain way, and he didn't, which pretty much screwed up my wild idea. However, I felt it necessary to let the town know where I had been going. I feel that you are scum getting us to do your dirty work for you. It makes me very uneasy how quickly you claimed and how quickly the town believed you.
@bat - what is your reasoning for keeping your fos on me? I have answered the question that you wanted answered from when you originally put it on me, but this time you gave no reason
about crippled: well it's strange to see that ability in two games, and stranger still that the two games are back to back, but it fits flavorfully with the role.
Sorry, I probably should have explained. Your carefully constructed "wild idea" seemed very suspicious to me. Split the possible outcomes into three cases:
1) armlx dies after Agentdark is lynched. In this case all bets are off.
2) armlx does not die after Agentdark is lynched. In this case he will either be vigged in the night or will himself be lynched the next day.
3) Agentdark does not die for some reason (currently very unlikely).
So what was the purpose of advancing your idea ? I can't see any possible motivation other than to delay Agentdark's death by persuading the town to lynch armlx first.
Of course it's more likely you were just burbling randomly. But that's the point of a FOS. It's not to say "You're guilty", it's more of a "Hmm...".
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
Kind of a scummy post here. Most people don't mess up their role names.
The main point of investigating you is that the only other time we've seen a role like this, it ended up being non-town.
Now this is what I like to call "not true." See, carrions role in R2 said he must survive to the end of the game. He died, so he loses. The general town win condition is along the lines of "kill all scum." It does not imply that you must be alive at the end to claim victory.
I don't think silicons idea is too crazy, but it doesn't apply here because AD claimed to have the same WC as armlx. I highly doubt armlx would have that WC, plus an "eliminate these 3 players" type thing.
[The Family]
I'd disagree that his play was terribly off-time: if we'd waited till the end of the day, perhaps we could have partially cleared someone depending on who AD voted against. But on the other hand, we needed something to spark discussion. You're really making this out to be something worse than it is. It may not have been optimal play, but it was good play, and complimenting good play is rarely even a minor scum tell, except under extreme circumstances.
Because my alleged "hiding under the carpet" occurred after you were already attacking me for reasons that amount to little more than smoke and mirrors.
It ended the lynch discussion, but there's still plenty of reactions to analyze.
Umm, I usually don't attack players for complimenting good play, even if there was a more optimal play.
I like it when you get all angsty...
Th only things I really have to add is that I support the investigation of CF tonight. If we can get him confirmed, his info would be very valuable. I am sceptic of him though, I feel it may have been a ballsy move by a GF.
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx
Cube
40 PPP is tech. Try it out.
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx
Cube
Now we just have to wait.
Who else reckons Azrael and Puzzle are both Mafia in this one ?
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
There's still information to be gathered from that. This argument, for example.
Yes, but you were saying that I do (and I don't).
You're so sweet.
Anything's possible. Not everything is likely.
(Isn't this fun?)
On a more serious note, I'm leaving this thread for the day. No need to "spam it up" waiting for DM to show up.
I dunno, I find their banter entertaining. The only 'scummy' thing about it is inflating post counts so they can lurk(doubtful for either of them), or confusing the heck out of people.
/me grabs a breadtangle of pizza while he waits for Dark's expulsion
I can't even remember what we're arguing about in this thread, but I'm sure you're wrong.
Oh yeah, that. Actually, I've been known to compliment players before when they make exceptional plays: recently I heavily complimented Billking for a certain pro-town gambit he ran in a game over on MT (Axel can confirm).
Likewise.
You do have a point there...
This is important. Can a mod let us know if this could be due to a deleated post and, if it could, try and find out who did it (if any did).
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Awards:
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BTW, thatks Fade.
Well if the day is about to end i will not waste a detailed annasis right now.
I sorry for my inactivety, it is because i have zero time.
I will post a very detailed anasis of the day during day 2.
Might as well post it now, you'd have to rewrite part of it based on whatever happens tonight(the person you thought scummiest turns out to be a dead doc tomorrow, etc). Or you could die, and we'd be without your analysis entirely. Either way, it doesn't have to be posted tomorrow to be discussed tomorrow.