Maybe we are looking at a 2 Mafia set up. With all the little social groups in high school it would make sense. If AD is telling the truth about the size and role names, this may be the "outcast" mafia.
I think we may actually have gotten something useful out of him.:banana:
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Maybe we are looking at a 2 Mafia set up. With all the little social groups in high school it would make sense. If AD is telling the truth about the size and role names, this may be the "outcast" mafia.
I know something (finally!) that probably have to do with this. It's probably not what most are expecting, unless they know what I do.
I know something (finally!) that probably have to do with this. It's probably not what most are expecting, unless they know what I do.
And you are mentioning this why? Just to brag? Nyah, nyah, I know something you don't know. If you think you have information either keep quiet until the right time, or spill. Don't give us useless stuff like this.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
And you are mentioning this why? Just to brag? Nyah, nyah, I know something you don't know. If you think you have information either keep quiet until the right time, or spill. Don't give us useless stuff like this.
I'm mentioning it because I don't want townies lynched. Would you like me to spill?
Since I have to unvote to vote: unvote, vote agentdark
There, nice and official.
You know, there's desperate flailing and there's BAD desperate flailing.
The whole LJustus thing stinks of an attempt to paint an innocent as the mafia goes down, right to the bit where he says he's Godfather (to explain away the inevitable innocent investigation) and that the Godfather is the Hacker.
The second bit, claiming numbers, names and abilities is more problematic. I have a general belief of ignoring all posts by confirmed mafia after they're outed because they're up to something (if twomz hadn't listened to me after I was pinged, English Literature mafia would have been a bit shorter...). Nonetheless... I wonder if he hasn't kind of screwed the pooch a little on this. There's probably some accurate bits and some inaccurate bits.
If 4 IS the number for the mafia, I must concur with the thought that there could be a 2nd mafia (instead of an SK?) or a cult. Especially if those abilities are anywhere near accurate, because a mafia of 4 with no extra kills- even with an SK along for the ride- isn't enough in a game this size. Interesting situation, since just because someone heavily bandwagons a mafia doesn't mean they aren't a member of the OTHER mafia (or the cult). However, we only have the word of a confirmed mafia for this info.
Let's just lynch him and be done with it before he muddies the water any further.
Well unless Dark is a townie, there were none in danger, so no need to bring it up. Now you've got a nice target on your head for mafia, so you'll prolly want to 'spill' before your blood spills tonight...
Let's just lynch him and be done with it before he muddies the water any further.
Afraid we'll get some valid info out of him? FOS: Raf There is no need to rush this lynch. The day is young.
While I agree that we can't trust what he says, if taken with a grain of salt, we could find some useful info.
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Well first of fos agentdark since there's no reason to rush the lynch. Second fos raf since he wants to rush the lynch.
I find it extremely hard to believe that Ljustus is the godfather if agentdark turns up mafia. On the roles agentdark said are in the mafia, well I might be able to believe him if he would clear it up a bit, especially the metalhead's role.
I'm mentioning it because I don't want townies lynched. Would you like me to spill?
Nevermind. I didn't get what you were saying at first. Now I do.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Silicon posting reminded me I am still random voting him. Luckily random votes won't be necessay in this game. Unvote
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"There is no royal road to science, and only those who do not dread the fatiguing climb
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx Cube
So here's a thought. Maybe there are 2 mafia, and the mafia Agentdark is in knows about at least one member in the other mafia, who is LJustus. So Agentdark is selling out a member of another mafia to help his own. How they would know is beyond me, but this happened in Dominaria mafia, IIRC. Just another possibility to consider.
Yeah, that was stupid in Dominaria. We back stabbed BK, then Vecna went cop on me. If I hadn't been counter claimed I would have gotten away with it too... (stops reminiscing)
I don't understand this E-Monkey thing. Doesn't matter since I die day 1 anyways....
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Albus Dumbledore, Harry Potter and the Sorceror's Stone
To the well organized mind, death is but the next great adventure.
After thinking about it some more, the theory of two mafia groups seems less likely, even with agent claiming that there's only four in his mafia group.
Also, though agent hasn't said it, I would assume that the link with armlx goes both ways. Though I just realized something irks me about the armlx-agent connection. Armlx, you said you have the town's win condition in addition to winning with only you and agent alive, did you not?
*checks*
Yes you did... but you have the con that if he dies, you die. So how could you ever achieve the town win condition, with agent being scum? Though as you said, why is your alternate relevant if agent isn't? Hmm... I'm confusing myself now... I'll get back to this if I can figure this out...
This is getting really complicated - it's making my head hurt !
It certainly seems like a lot of good info is being generated here. I have a feeling I'll be re-reading day one for a long time to come.
One key question which occurs to me, which perhaps more experienced Mafia players may be able to answer: Is four Mafia and an SK enough for a game of this size, or is CropCircles probably right about the second Mafia ? Also, would Agentdark even know whether there was a second Mafia ?
Silicon makes a good point, but since we're planning to eventually lynch Agentdark today anyway there's really no point armlx weaving complex lies since if he doesn't die we'll just kill him anyway. (Unless he's immune to lynches... now that would be really annoying.)
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In regards to the set up... could the cannabis have been a Vig's kill? The vig fired first night in 8-bit to tell the town he was there.... might have happened here too.
Yeah, I remember that. Man that guy is so cool. I wish I were as cool as him. :tongue2:
On a more serious note, framing someone with drugs doesn't sound very Vig-like to me.
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"There is no royal road to science, and only those who do not dread the fatiguing climb
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx Cube
I've got to agree with Raf on this, everything AgentDark has said could be a lie. So unless you want to start playing WIFOM we've got to take everything he has said with a pinch of salt.
Agreed with your agreement with me
The major problem with a lot of mafia games is they get unnecessarily stretched out and people lose interest. We have an absolute lynch for today as far as I can see. There has been time for everyone to express a view on everything they want to express a view on. This is not a rushed lynch. The guy has admitted he's mafia after armlx made a very convincing claim, and it's been a few days of conversation since then. Finish the sod.
As far as more time for Agent to give more "information", well, the town nearly lost by giving me time to weave my wave of total BS in English Lit mafia after I'd been exposed by an inspector because one of them eventually fell for it, stood up for me, and got lynched the next day. There's no benefit. He might say some truthful things, but we don't know what they are. We'll inevitably speculate (me included), but it's not wise to base stuff off the words of a mafia after he's admitted he's mafia. If I thought he was a real game-breaking bastard who was going to feed us everyone's names and ruin the game, I might egg him on- hey, a win's a win!- but he's trying to have it both ways, being "forthcoming" and reticent at the same time.
Anyway, for tomorrow- FOS silicon for barning onto Chuckle's FOS of me and talking about rushing the lynch, and also making NO sense by only FOSing agentdark and talking about how he might believe him or something. Besides, he's also one of these people far too interested too early in convincing the town there's only two sources of scum. And like CropCircles he just played a game with a cult in, too, much less excuse for that kind of thinking... You did say
After thinking about it some more, the theory of two mafia groups seems less likely
. I'd love to hear what that thinking actually is.
4 mafia seems small for a game with 23 people. We don't know, of course, that he's telling the truth about the 4. 2 groups of 4 is too many. 2 groups of 3 would work. Possibly one group of 4 and one of 3 (which seems unlikely).
This is not something we can figure out right now I don't think. Might get a better idea afrer AgentDark is lynched.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
The major problem with a lot of mafia games is they get unnecessarily stretched out and people lose interest. We have an absolute lynch for today as far as I can see. There has been time for everyone to express a view on everything they want to express a view on. This is not a rushed lynch. The guy has admitted he's mafia after armlx made a very convincing claim, and it's been a few days of conversation since then. Finish the sod.
As far as more time for Agent to give more "information", well, the town nearly lost by giving me time to weave my wave of total BS in English Lit mafia after I'd been exposed by an inspector because one of them eventually fell for it, stood up for me, and got lynched the next day. There's no benefit. He might say some truthful things, but we don't know what they are. We'll inevitably speculate (me included), but it's not wise to base stuff off the words of a mafia after he's admitted he's mafia. If I thought he was a real game-breaking bastard who was going to feed us everyone's names and ruin the game, I might egg him on- hey, a win's a win!- but he's trying to have it both ways, being "forthcoming" and reticent at the same time.
Anyway, for tomorrow- FOS silicon for barning onto Chuckle's FOS of me and talking about rushing the lynch, and also making NO sense by only FOSing agentdark and talking about how he might believe him or something. Besides, he's also one of these people far too interested too early in convincing the town there's only two sources of scum. And like CropCircles he just played a game with a cult in, too, much less excuse for that kind of thinking... You did say . I'd love to hear what that thinking actually is.
Even false information is valuable, Raf. It gives us something to sift through, and we definitely don't have a problem with maintaining interest right now. I'm going to agree with Chuckle's and Silicon's FOS of you: this kind of behavior would be very worrying for the mafia, and they would like nothing better than to finish him off before he gives too much away.
I could almost agree with there being two mafias, if armix isn't lying about his win condition. He could very well be part of another mafia, with a masonic tie to the other. It's not too uncommon to have a "backstabbing" or "side changing" clause in a win condition, so he could be able to chage sides later, making it able for them to be the only two alive.
Quote from armix »
Silicon: My pro-town win is relevant as I win if I die but the town wins (thats how it normally works).
I find it very hard to belive that you would "get stuck" without a plausible way to finish the game alive and winning. There's more here that you're not telling us.
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I think that it is possible that there are two mafia groups, but I don't find it likely. Why, you ask? Because the information is coming from AgentDark.
I think "hacker" is more of an investigative role. It doesn't have to necessarily be town-aligned, but I have been in a game with that role (Azrael, I think you were too, right?), and it was an investigative role.
I find it more likely that the GF is something like "Student Body President" or something like that. This role would explain why he appears innocent.
Puzzle, I don't get the FOS on me. . . Well, actually I understand it at this point, but I don't see what it has to do with post #55. Could you clarify your reasoning there?
@AgentDark - The fact that you won't name any mafia besides the Godfather leads me to disbelieve your claim about Ljustus. If you really want to screw him, give us someone we can investigate!
Other questions for you:
1. Would I be correct in assuming that your group killed SorryGuy? (I don't see metalheads and goths using dodgeballs as weapons.)
2. If so, why kill SG as opposed to, say, a good player? If you killed chamber, why him?
3. Does Metalhead target the person using the ability, or the mafioso he wants to protect?
Unvote: AgentDark in the hopes that more information may be forthcoming.
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I think "hacker" is more of an investigative role. It doesn't have to necessarily be town-aligned, but I have been in a game with that role (Azrael, I think you were too, right?), and it was an investigative role.
Yes, that was me. But I don't think we can infer much of anything from that.
Quote from LJustus »
Puzzle, I don't get the FOS on me. . . Well, actually I understand it at this point, but I don't see what it has to do with post #55. Could you clarify your reasoning there?
I'm also a taken aback a little bit by whatever point he's trying to make. Yes, a more optimal play would have been to wait and gather more reactions, but congratulating him on making a 1 for 1 trade with the mafia is somehow scummy? Come on.
A. Am alive with Agentdark at the end and we (only us) both win.
B. Am dead when the town wins and win with the town.
Quote from me »
I find it very hard to belive that you would "get stuck" without a plausible way to finish the game alive and winning. There's more here that you're not telling us.
Please, someone enlighten me with a realisistic way that he could be alive and win.
I don't think the mod, unless he really didn't like you, would give you a role that gives you no incentive to play the game.
(If I were given a role in which I couldn't be alive at the end of the game, even if I technically "won," I would not claim that this early. I would know that I could study the behavior patterns of the mafia and see who followed him closely enough, then present all the information at a time where it would be of the most use to the town.)
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I'm going to die in the game if we hit a certain number of posts in one day before a lynch is achieved. We're not within spitting distance yet, but it does make me vaguely concerned when people want to drag a day out unnecessarily. I would imagine there's a mirror role where they gain power from dragging a day out. Quite possibly a scum role. I'm very grateful for mod-merging of double posts.
The only argument I can see for dragging this out further and risking people drifting off over time (not to mention risking my hide!) is if you think Agent's going to happily feed us more info on the mafia. The fact that he's willing to come out with some names (ie. claiming Ljustus is godfather) but then be reticent on other things is a clear sign he's not, in fact, planning on handing us day 1 on a platter. Give over, Az. If you have something else you want the town to talk about, bring it up now. If you don't, what's the point of stalling? The time for a trap would have been before armlx came out, but what's done is done and it still comes with a dead mafia on the end of it.
[QUOTE=RafaelK]I'm going to die in the game if we hit a certain number of posts in one day before a lynch is achieved. We're not within spitting distance yet, but it does make me vaguely concerned when people want to drag a day out unnecessarily. I would imagine there's a mirror role where they gain power from dragging a day out. Quite possibly a scum role. I'm very grateful for mod-merging of double posts.
[QUOTE]
Wow...lots of claims on day 1. I think that it would be a more scum based role to end the day quickly, so the night can come faster, than to have it go on longer (a.k.a. getting more information for the town to use)
If we weren't close, why bring it up this early?
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Actually, that seems pretty elegant to me. Nice design DM.
See, it makes him look scummy if he tries to speed the day too much, but really he's just trying not to die. I agree with WOLG though. . . I probably wouldn't have let that fact out - at least if we weren't getting close. Now the baddies just have to spam it up a bit if the day runs too long - without making it look suspicious, of course. Let's not give the mafia more information to worik with than they already have. They certainly aren't going to give us any at this stage in the game.
@Raf - I don't think you would make that up, but the part of your claim that bothers me is:
Quote from RafaelK »
I would imagine there's a mirror role where they gain power from dragging a day out. Quite possibly a scum role.
On what basis would you assume this? Minor FOS: RafaelK
In any case, tell us if we get close to the limit and we'll end the day. In the meantime, I think there's a good chance AD will answer at least some of my questions.
@WOLG: Why do you still not get it about armlx? There's a 90% chance he's telling the truth, but if he's not we'll find out at day's end and he'll be dead soon enough. So why keep pressing him?
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@WOLG: Why do you still not get it about armlx? There's a 90% chance he's telling the truth, but if he's not we'll find out at day's end and he'll be dead soon enough. So why keep pressing him?
Mostly to see if he'll change is story or beg for a chance to live...a 1 for 1 |or| 2(town) for 1 trade is can be helpful to the mafia, especially if it ends up confusing the town to the point where no ones alligence can be discerned.
We need to get some more info, but chances are the day will end without any more significant clues...too many for day 1 already anyway...
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The only argument I can see for dragging this out further and risking people drifting off over time (not to mention risking my hide!) is if you think Agent's going to happily feed us more info on the mafia. The fact that he's willing to come out with some names (ie. claiming Ljustus is godfather) but then be reticent on other things is a clear sign he's not, in fact, planning on handing us day 1 on a platter. Give over, Az. If you have something else you want the town to talk about, bring it up now. If you don't, what's the point of stalling? The time for a trap would have been before armlx came out, but what's done is done and it still comes with a dead mafia on the end of it.
As long as people are talking at this rate, why stop? The more we have to analyze, the better off we'll be. If you're not in any imminent danger, then there's little reason to cut things off prematurely.
I wouldn't make any assumptions that you have a symmetrical role that gains some kind of bonus according to how many posts are made, either. That kind of unproven theory is a very dangerous thing to base play decisions upon, especially when it means limiting the town's flow of information based upon pure speculation.
I'd be inclined to believe it doesn't exist, actually: the mafia only have a small number of roles with which to be symmetrical, and the mod has to cram in a whole spectrum of abilities such as role-blocking godfather, daykiller, etc. That doesn't leave very many spots open for such a role. Additionally, the balance created by limiting the town's discussion with your ability, really wouldn't be there if the mafia was allowed to make a certain number of posts, because they could work together to achieve that goal.
Mostly to see if he'll change is story or beg for a chance to live...
Hmmm, so he'll beg for a chance to live, after he himself proposed the idea of his death? Not buying it.
Quote from WellOfLostGnomes »
a 1 for 1 |or| 2(town) for 1 trade is can be helpful to the mafia, especially if it ends up confusing the town to the point where no ones alligence can be discerned.
So you think we shouldn't make the trade?
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I don't think the additional information we're going to get out of AD is going to be very benificiary. I highly doubt he would tell us anything just to save himself for another day. So my vote stays on AD. When everyone else feels they're done interrogating him, then end the day. I am not suggesting we rush the lynch, but I'm just saying the info AD gives us isn't going to be very helpful.
On Raf: Could it be a falseclaim? Trying direct suspicion off himself for rushing the lynch? Most likely not, but it is a possibility.
The more we have to analyze, the better off we'll be.
Strongly agree with this. The best way to lose Mafia games is to end up having to take wild guesses with the lynches due to lack of info.
In fact whilst we're on the subject, here's a list of lurkers:
Crippled Fist - 0 posts
Vecna_Reborn - 1 post
creampuffeater - 1 post
magicianofthought - 1 post
Any chance of a bit more contribution from you guys ? Lurking makes you look scummy, you know ! :tongue2:
Also, just a quick note: Could people please stop roleclaiming. I know there were reasons in both cases, but it can really help the Mafia a lot.
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@ RafaelK : your death by long day doesn't end the day, does it ?
In any case, now that this is open knowledge, you should tell us the number of posts required for you to die, just in case. It can't hurt (well...).
Bad Puzzle! Raf, don't listen to him. We don't need to know how many posts, we just need to be warned when we are getting within 'spitting distance', as you called it, of your death by long day. However, Puzzle does bring up a good question, does your death of boredom (or whatever it is) end the dya? I'd like to drag the day out just a bit more however, because I have a wild idea... though first I'll fos Puzzle.
Now on to the real topic of this post:
I'd like to ask Agentdark two simple questions:
1) Do you indeed have the same alternate win condition as Armlx
2) Do you die when Armlx dies?
I will post more on my wild idea when I get answers to these questions.
Silicon, not only does your assertion make no sense but landing a FOS on Puzzle just seems random here.
Well no, let's be honest, it seems scummy.
FOS: Silicon - at least until he explains why an exact post count limit from Raf would be bad.
Oh, something that's just occurred to me: Could players who have not yet voted for Agentdark please FOS him if you plan to vote for him once we're done discussing ? Otherwise it's not clear who's waiting on purpose and who's just being slack.
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Always glad to take you back.
It's due to calling Armlx's early a good move. I disagree and complimenting him (although I admit the move is good for us) without reserves as for his timing only encourages others, like EinsteinMonkey for example, to go ahead and burst their information bubble too early.
That should be warned against, not encouraged, and both of you (should ?) know that.
*shrugs* I'm not going to nitpick when he just handed us a scum on a silver platter. If and when new players "burst their bubble" too early, we can deal with that then, but getting new players to hold back their role information was hardly the first thing that crossed my mind upon hearing that we had already nailed a scum just a few posts into day one thanks to a townie sacrificing himself for the greater good.
Well, tactically any one-for-one trade that the town can make is a good one in my book. The fact that we are going to lynch scum on day one puts us ahead in the game.
True. . . strategically, it may have been better to wait, but I can hardly fault someone for presenting a one-for-one right off the bat. Perhaps, even knowing that AgentDark was scum, Armlx wasn't comfortable with trying to subtly steer the town to see it. We can't all be the master of the Cunning Plan (TM).
I agree that Raf should tell us how many posts will kill him. For the scum to try and get in range of that number, they may as well post "I am scum" in the posts leading up to his death. There is no reason for him to hold back this info.
I don't think the additional information we're going to get out of AD is going to be very benificiary. I highly doubt he would tell us anything just to save himself for another day. So my vote stays on AD. When everyone else feels they're done interrogating him, then end the day. I am not suggesting we rush the lynch, but I'm just saying the info AD gives us isn't going to be very helpful.
I mostly agree with this. If I were a guessing man (and I am) I'd guess that the "first" bits of information given-up by AgentDark are the only ones that have even a chance of being true. I get this feeling--and it's only a feeling--that he may have regretted his poor sportsmanship (in giving up the mafia GF) and now be trying to make it up to the mafia through mis-information.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I disagree. All they have to do then is string out the discussion before we get too close to a consensus. The less information the mafia have the better. There is no need to hand them extra ammunition.
@_@ This thread got busy quick. I'll start catching up now.
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"There is no royal road to science, and only those who do not dread the fatiguing climb
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx Cube
I actually got a bit the same feeling (cf my #125) and wouldn't mind a LJustus claim before the night at all. In fact, Unvote Azrael, vote LJustus.
So, in the face of a confirmed and claimed scum, you are going to. . .
1. believe his accusation.
2. place your vote on two active players/good analysts (Admittedly, Az is a better player than me.), simply for thanking a townie for a one-for-one trade on a platter.
I don't really think a claim from me is warranted. We have already given the mafia too much information to work with, in my opinion - without gaining any additional information ourselves.
Now, I have a hard time believing that you're scum. I think that you're a good enough player that, if you were scum, you would vote AgentDark and be done with him, so the obligatory FoS or vote is not necessary. I just think that you may be placing to little faith in AD's play ability and actually believe that he would roll over on a fellow mafia member. That's your decision, but I know the truth, and others have pointed out that they know AD to be lying - at least in part.
Um, Puzzle, despite what I just said, voting for LJustus right now is certafiably insane. We have a confessed mafia to lynch. We don't need a claim now.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I mostly agree with this. If I were a guessing man (and I am) I'd guess that the "first" bits of information given-up by AgentDark are the only ones that have even a chance of being true. I get this feeling--and it's only a feeling--that he may have regretted his poor sportsmanship (in giving up the mafia GF) and now be trying to make it up to the mafia through mis-information.
I highly doubt that Agent would give up the name of his GF in an attempt to implicate him. Possibly as a gambit to clear him, but not as an attempt to kill him. Although the second possibility may be giving him too much credit for deviousness.
But now that Agent has attempted to implicate someone, we could conceivably use non-cop roles to possibly confirm LJustus (more than he already is), by detecting whether he has a night role or not. While it would be possible that Agent could have picked a regular mafia agent with a targeting ability instead of the actual GF in order to throw us off, I kinda doubt he thought out his little gambit that far.
I don't think that in the face of an impending lynch, a mafia agent would be irrational enough to try to finger his GF for revenge, instead of trying every false claim and misinformation technique in the book to try to wriggle his way out of a lynch and buy himself time. Their own survival is the first thing on their mind, usually.
It was a desperation tactic, and not likely to work, but what could easily have been going through Agent's mind is that a GF role is a higher priority than a regular mafia role, so that the town might have been persuaded to lynch LJustus instead if they bought his claim. Alternately, he may have accepted the inevitability of his death, but hoped that the town's lack of a way to confirm this false claim would eventually lead to enough paranoid fears that LJustus could be lynched.
So why is it that you found his claim so easy to buy into?
So why is it that you found his claim so easy to buy into?
Couple of things:
Quote from AgentDark »
Okay, well I guess I have to do this :I am mafia
Survival instinct and stuff
The mafia Godfather is Ljustus
He stabbed me in the back so I guess I will return the favor
That was in response you your request that he cough up the name of a fellow mafia. What got me was the casual way this post came out. Also, saying LJustus "stabbed him in the back" when LJustus hadn't done any such thing that I could see. It was weird.
Then this:
Quote from AgentDark »
Why bother lying, If I do get lynched the game wont matter anymore to me anyway.
Besides The rest of the Mafia voted against me as well but I wont reveal them. But I do think that Ljustus might have turned them agaisnt me. Besides I want to screw them over.
That struck me as a genuine sentiment. Plus, again, how did LJustus turn them against him? It's somewhat counter-intuitive, but if he were trying to "frame" someone, wouldn't he be doing a better job?
Quote from AgentDark »
See the problem is everybody assumes I am a normal rational person. I dont care about the Game after I get knocked off, and besides Ljustus sold me out and I want revenge.
To my fellow Mafia buddies: Sorry I had to get rid of Ljustus but whatever, you can all still win without him I think.
Kinda sad, how big a mistake you are all making...........
That's where it sounds like he's now regretting what he did.
Plus, I wasn't in love with some of LJustus' posts up until then anyway. Particularly where he suggested that one of you, Puzzle, or Myself was likely mafia, just by virtue of still being alive. And his reaction after being fingered wasn't what I imagine mine would have been. He was remarkably calm and nonchalant about it, saying "of course he's lying..." as opposed to "WTF!!!"
I realize that's not proof of anything. Nor do you see me voting LJustus. I'd like something more concrete.
Question to you, Az: why did you ask AgentDark to give up a fellow mafia in the first place? What made you think that would work?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Plus, I wasn't in love with some of LJustus' posts up until then anyway. Particularly where he suggested that one of you, Puzzle, or Myself was likely mafia, just by virtue of still being alive. And his reaction after being fingered wasn't what I imagine mine would have been. He was remarkably calm and nonchalant about it, saying "of course he's lying..." as opposed to "WTF!!!"
No, what I said was this. . .
Quote from me in post 20 »
I would imagine that at least one of them is mafia. That and whoever the killers are would probably expect doc protection for those players on night one.
I imagine that at least one good player is in the mafia because the odds of it are likely. There are a lot of good players in this game. It is likely that one of these good players is scum.
Please also note that I offered another explanation. . . that the mafia is trying to out-guess our doc(s). Who is most likely to receive doc protection on night one? (Active players/good analysts.)
I'm sorry if that post caused the wrong impression, but I am simply trying to make logical sense of an illogical situation (as this game inherently is).
Sorry if my nonchalance (or appearance thereof) is unsettling to you, but based on my experience in mafia games, a big reaction is more an indication of scumminess - especially to such a ludicrous accusation as this.
Also, you find it odd that AD would roll over on me (assuming that I am the mafia GF, of course) for stabbing him in the back, when you clearly recognize no such action on my part (again, assuming that I am the GF). But it makes sense to you that AD would roll over on a GF that hasn't voted for him rather than other mafia that have because the alleged GF convinced them to do so when the mafia aren't even allowed to talk privately during the day? How does this make any sense at all?
There is something fishy in Azrael and LJustus's reaction to Armlx. It just sounds wrong. And AgentDark's move seemed actually genuine at the beginning.
Subjective personal impressions aren't very convincing, as evidence. In fact, they're commonly used by the mafia to support false conclusions that they can't justify in any other way.
Quote from Puzzle »
I can understand not wanting a claim today but letting ourselves reach the night gives people (read LJustus) a chance to organize their claims. That said, it's maybe more risky to force a claim today than to wait tomorrow. Yeah, well, unvote LJustus till tomorrow.
LJustus and Axel are completely correct in saying that a claim is unwarranted at this point. All you had to justify your suspicions was an intuitive feeling about his posting style: that looks like a pretty sketchy, badly handled attempt to force a townie to claim unnecessarily. Major FOS Puzzle.
Quote from Puzzle »
It's good to nail scum on day 1 but it feels frustrating.
I'm sure it is, for the mafia.
Quote from Axelrod »
Couple of things:
That was in response you your request that he cough up the name of a fellow mafia. What got me was the casual way this post came out. Also, saying LJustus "stabbed him in the back" when LJustus hadn't done any such thing that I could see. It was weird.
It was very weird. That's why it seems so forced to me, and why I'm surprised that anyone believed him.
Quote from Axelrod »
Then this:
That struck me as a genuine sentiment. Plus, again, how did LJustus turn them against him? It's somewhat counter-intuitive, but if he were trying to "frame" someone, wouldn't he be doing a better job?
I dunno. It strikes me as ludicrous and sensational.
Quote from Axelrod »
That's where it sounds like he's now regretting what he did.
To me, it sounds as if he's trying to come with a very thin justification for why he would turn in his own GF, so that we'll believe his story and go after someone else.
Quote from Axelrod »
Plus, I wasn't in love with some of LJustus' posts up until then anyway. Particularly where he suggested that one of you, Puzzle, or Myself was likely mafia, just by virtue of still being alive. And his reaction after being fingered wasn't what I imagine mine would have been. He was remarkably calm and nonchalant about it, saying "of course he's lying..." as opposed to "WTF!!!"
Because in his opinion, like my own, Agent's claim was simply a desperation tactic with little chance of actually harming him. I wouldn't have been very worried about it, either.
Quote from Agentdark »
Question to you, Az: why did you ask AgentDark to give up a fellow mafia in the first place? What made you think that would work?
I was hoping that he would try something exactly like this: try to feed us some names that we could then use to either clear or nail as mafia (most likely clear). It would also have a nice potential for sparking discussion, which it certainly has.
I think we may actually have gotten something useful out of him.:banana:
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx
Cube
I know something (finally!) that probably have to do with this. It's probably not what most are expecting, unless they know what I do.
And you are mentioning this why? Just to brag? Nyah, nyah, I know something you don't know. If you think you have information either keep quiet until the right time, or spill. Don't give us useless stuff like this.
I'm mentioning it because I don't want townies lynched. Would you like me to spill?
There, nice and official.
You know, there's desperate flailing and there's BAD desperate flailing.
The whole LJustus thing stinks of an attempt to paint an innocent as the mafia goes down, right to the bit where he says he's Godfather (to explain away the inevitable innocent investigation) and that the Godfather is the Hacker.
The second bit, claiming numbers, names and abilities is more problematic. I have a general belief of ignoring all posts by confirmed mafia after they're outed because they're up to something (if twomz hadn't listened to me after I was pinged, English Literature mafia would have been a bit shorter...). Nonetheless... I wonder if he hasn't kind of screwed the pooch a little on this. There's probably some accurate bits and some inaccurate bits.
If 4 IS the number for the mafia, I must concur with the thought that there could be a 2nd mafia (instead of an SK?) or a cult. Especially if those abilities are anywhere near accurate, because a mafia of 4 with no extra kills- even with an SK along for the ride- isn't enough in a game this size. Interesting situation, since just because someone heavily bandwagons a mafia doesn't mean they aren't a member of the OTHER mafia (or the cult). However, we only have the word of a confirmed mafia for this info.
Let's just lynch him and be done with it before he muddies the water any further.
EBDP: That was @ Einstein
Afraid we'll get some valid info out of him? FOS: Raf There is no need to rush this lynch. The day is young.
While I agree that we can't trust what he says, if taken with a grain of salt, we could find some useful info.
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx
Cube
I find it extremely hard to believe that Ljustus is the godfather if agentdark turns up mafia. On the roles agentdark said are in the mafia, well I might be able to believe him if he would clear it up a bit, especially the metalhead's role.
Nevermind. I didn't get what you were saying at first. Now I do.
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx
Cube
[The Family]
I don't understand this E-Monkey thing. Doesn't matter since I die day 1 anyways....
Also, though agent hasn't said it, I would assume that the link with armlx goes both ways. Though I just realized something irks me about the armlx-agent connection. Armlx, you said you have the town's win condition in addition to winning with only you and agent alive, did you not?
*checks*
Yes you did... but you have the con that if he dies, you die. So how could you ever achieve the town win condition, with agent being scum? Though as you said, why is your alternate relevant if agent isn't? Hmm... I'm confusing myself now... I'll get back to this if I can figure this out...
It certainly seems like a lot of good info is being generated here. I have a feeling I'll be re-reading day one for a long time to come.
One key question which occurs to me, which perhaps more experienced Mafia players may be able to answer: Is four Mafia and an SK enough for a game of this size, or is CropCircles probably right about the second Mafia ? Also, would Agentdark even know whether there was a second Mafia ?
Silicon makes a good point, but since we're planning to eventually lynch Agentdark today anyway there's really no point armlx weaving complex lies since if he doesn't die we'll just kill him anyway. (Unless he's immune to lynches... now that would be really annoying.)
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
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MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
Yeah, I remember that. Man that guy is so cool. I wish I were as cool as him. :tongue2:
On a more serious note, framing someone with drugs doesn't sound very Vig-like to me.
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx
Cube
Agreed with your agreement with me
The major problem with a lot of mafia games is they get unnecessarily stretched out and people lose interest. We have an absolute lynch for today as far as I can see. There has been time for everyone to express a view on everything they want to express a view on. This is not a rushed lynch. The guy has admitted he's mafia after armlx made a very convincing claim, and it's been a few days of conversation since then. Finish the sod.
As far as more time for Agent to give more "information", well, the town nearly lost by giving me time to weave my wave of total BS in English Lit mafia after I'd been exposed by an inspector because one of them eventually fell for it, stood up for me, and got lynched the next day. There's no benefit. He might say some truthful things, but we don't know what they are. We'll inevitably speculate (me included), but it's not wise to base stuff off the words of a mafia after he's admitted he's mafia. If I thought he was a real game-breaking bastard who was going to feed us everyone's names and ruin the game, I might egg him on- hey, a win's a win!- but he's trying to have it both ways, being "forthcoming" and reticent at the same time.
Anyway, for tomorrow- FOS silicon for barning onto Chuckle's FOS of me and talking about rushing the lynch, and also making NO sense by only FOSing agentdark and talking about how he might believe him or something. Besides, he's also one of these people far too interested too early in convincing the town there's only two sources of scum. And like CropCircles he just played a game with a cult in, too, much less excuse for that kind of thinking... You did say . I'd love to hear what that thinking actually is.
This is not something we can figure out right now I don't think. Might get a better idea afrer AgentDark is lynched.
Even false information is valuable, Raf. It gives us something to sift through, and we definitely don't have a problem with maintaining interest right now. I'm going to agree with Chuckle's and Silicon's FOS of you: this kind of behavior would be very worrying for the mafia, and they would like nothing better than to finish him off before he gives too much away.
Your OMGUS FOS was kind of meh, as well.
fadeblue- CropCircles
armlx- WOLG, Agentdark
Agentdark- armlx, fadeblue, bateleur, JCSuperstar, Axelrod, Matjoeman, LJustus, RafaelK
MoT- turbo164
Not voting- Crippled Fist, silicon, Kenji, einsteinmonkey, Azrael, creampuffeater, MoT, Puzzle
With 21 enrolled it takes 11 to expell.
I find it very hard to belive that you would "get stuck" without a plausible way to finish the game alive and winning. There's more here that you're not telling us.
-[thread=14456]The [Untitled] Avatar and Sig shop![/thread] Avatar from:[thread=25376] [Epic Graphics][/thread]
Awards:
Elegant Mafia: The Joker, Mafia MVP
A. Am alive with Agentdark at the end and we (only us) both win.
B. Am dead when the town wins and win with the town.
I think that it is possible that there are two mafia groups, but I don't find it likely. Why, you ask? Because the information is coming from AgentDark.
I think "hacker" is more of an investigative role. It doesn't have to necessarily be town-aligned, but I have been in a game with that role (Azrael, I think you were too, right?), and it was an investigative role.
I find it more likely that the GF is something like "Student Body President" or something like that. This role would explain why he appears innocent.
Puzzle, I don't get the FOS on me. . . Well, actually I understand it at this point, but I don't see what it has to do with post #55. Could you clarify your reasoning there?
Other questions for you:
1. Would I be correct in assuming that your group killed SorryGuy? (I don't see metalheads and goths using dodgeballs as weapons.)
2. If so, why kill SG as opposed to, say, a good player? If you killed chamber, why him?
3. Does Metalhead target the person using the ability, or the mafioso he wants to protect?
Unvote: AgentDark in the hopes that more information may be forthcoming.
Yes, that was me. But I don't think we can infer much of anything from that.
I'm also a taken aback a little bit by whatever point he's trying to make. Yes, a more optimal play would have been to wait and gather more reactions, but congratulating him on making a 1 for 1 trade with the mafia is somehow scummy? Come on.
Please, someone enlighten me with a realisistic way that he could be alive and win.
I don't think the mod, unless he really didn't like you, would give you a role that gives you no incentive to play the game.
(If I were given a role in which I couldn't be alive at the end of the game, even if I technically "won," I would not claim that this early. I would know that I could study the behavior patterns of the mafia and see who followed him closely enough, then present all the information at a time where it would be of the most use to the town.)
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Awards:
Elegant Mafia: The Joker, Mafia MVP
The only argument I can see for dragging this out further and risking people drifting off over time (not to mention risking my hide!) is if you think Agent's going to happily feed us more info on the mafia. The fact that he's willing to come out with some names (ie. claiming Ljustus is godfather) but then be reticent on other things is a clear sign he's not, in fact, planning on handing us day 1 on a platter. Give over, Az. If you have something else you want the town to talk about, bring it up now. If you don't, what's the point of stalling? The time for a trap would have been before armlx came out, but what's done is done and it still comes with a dead mafia on the end of it.
[QUOTE]
Wow...lots of claims on day 1. I think that it would be a more scum based role to end the day quickly, so the night can come faster, than to have it go on longer (a.k.a. getting more information for the town to use)
If we weren't close, why bring it up this early?
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Awards:
Elegant Mafia: The Joker, Mafia MVP
See, it makes him look scummy if he tries to speed the day too much, but really he's just trying not to die. I agree with WOLG though. . . I probably wouldn't have let that fact out - at least if we weren't getting close. Now the baddies just have to spam it up a bit if the day runs too long - without making it look suspicious, of course. Let's not give the mafia more information to worik with than they already have. They certainly aren't going to give us any at this stage in the game.
On what basis would you assume this? Minor FOS: RafaelK
In any case, tell us if we get close to the limit and we'll end the day. In the meantime, I think there's a good chance AD will answer at least some of my questions.
@WOLG: Why do you still not get it about armlx? There's a 90% chance he's telling the truth, but if he's not we'll find out at day's end and he'll be dead soon enough. So why keep pressing him?
Mostly to see if he'll change is story or beg for a chance to live...a 1 for 1 |or| 2(town) for 1 trade is can be helpful to the mafia, especially if it ends up confusing the town to the point where no ones alligence can be discerned.
We need to get some more info, but chances are the day will end without any more significant clues...too many for day 1 already anyway...
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Awards:
Elegant Mafia: The Joker, Mafia MVP
As long as people are talking at this rate, why stop? The more we have to analyze, the better off we'll be. If you're not in any imminent danger, then there's little reason to cut things off prematurely.
I wouldn't make any assumptions that you have a symmetrical role that gains some kind of bonus according to how many posts are made, either. That kind of unproven theory is a very dangerous thing to base play decisions upon, especially when it means limiting the town's flow of information based upon pure speculation.
I'd be inclined to believe it doesn't exist, actually: the mafia only have a small number of roles with which to be symmetrical, and the mod has to cram in a whole spectrum of abilities such as role-blocking godfather, daykiller, etc. That doesn't leave very many spots open for such a role. Additionally, the balance created by limiting the town's discussion with your ability, really wouldn't be there if the mafia was allowed to make a certain number of posts, because they could work together to achieve that goal.
Hmmm, so he'll beg for a chance to live, after he himself proposed the idea of his death? Not buying it.
So you think we shouldn't make the trade?
On Raf: Could it be a falseclaim? Trying direct suspicion off himself for rushing the lynch? Most likely not, but it is a possibility.
<XylBot> ||| MAFIABOT || sk: LookingforReality (Copycat) |||
<XylBot> ||| MAFIABOT || survivor: matjoeman (Anarchist) |||
<XylBot> ||| MAFIABOT || town: kops (Anarchist) |||
Mafia stats
Strongly agree with this. The best way to lose Mafia games is to end up having to take wild guesses with the lynches due to lack of info.
In fact whilst we're on the subject, here's a list of lurkers:
Crippled Fist - 0 posts
Vecna_Reborn - 1 post
creampuffeater - 1 post
magicianofthought - 1 post
Any chance of a bit more contribution from you guys ? Lurking makes you look scummy, you know ! :tongue2:
Also, just a quick note: Could people please stop roleclaiming. I know there were reasons in both cases, but it can really help the Mafia a lot.
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
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<Limited Clan>
Bad Puzzle! Raf, don't listen to him. We don't need to know how many posts, we just need to be warned when we are getting within 'spitting distance', as you called it, of your death by long day. However, Puzzle does bring up a good question, does your death of boredom (or whatever it is) end the dya? I'd like to drag the day out just a bit more however, because I have a wild idea... though first I'll fos Puzzle.
Now on to the real topic of this post:
I'd like to ask Agentdark two simple questions:
1) Do you indeed have the same alternate win condition as Armlx
2) Do you die when Armlx dies?
I will post more on my wild idea when I get answers to these questions.
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Awards:
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Well no, let's be honest, it seems scummy.
FOS: Silicon - at least until he explains why an exact post count limit from Raf would be bad.
Oh, something that's just occurred to me: Could players who have not yet voted for Agentdark please FOS him if you plan to vote for him once we're done discussing ? Otherwise it's not clear who's waiting on purpose and who's just being slack.
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
*shrugs* I'm not going to nitpick when he just handed us a scum on a silver platter. If and when new players "burst their bubble" too early, we can deal with that then, but getting new players to hold back their role information was hardly the first thing that crossed my mind upon hearing that we had already nailed a scum just a few posts into day one thanks to a townie sacrificing himself for the greater good.
True. . . strategically, it may have been better to wait, but I can hardly fault someone for presenting a one-for-one right off the bat. Perhaps, even knowing that AgentDark was scum, Armlx wasn't comfortable with trying to subtly steer the town to see it. We can't all be the master of the Cunning Plan (TM).
[The Family]
I mostly agree with this. If I were a guessing man (and I am) I'd guess that the "first" bits of information given-up by AgentDark are the only ones that have even a chance of being true. I get this feeling--and it's only a feeling--that he may have regretted his poor sportsmanship (in giving up the mafia GF) and now be trying to make it up to the mafia through mis-information.
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx
Cube
So, in the face of a confirmed and claimed scum, you are going to. . .
1. believe his accusation.
2. place your vote on two active players/good analysts (Admittedly, Az is a better player than me.), simply for thanking a townie for a one-for-one trade on a platter.
I don't really think a claim from me is warranted. We have already given the mafia too much information to work with, in my opinion - without gaining any additional information ourselves.
Now, I have a hard time believing that you're scum. I think that you're a good enough player that, if you were scum, you would vote AgentDark and be done with him, so the obligatory FoS or vote is not necessary. I just think that you may be placing to little faith in AD's play ability and actually believe that he would roll over on a fellow mafia member. That's your decision, but I know the truth, and others have pointed out that they know AD to be lying - at least in part.
I highly doubt that Agent would give up the name of his GF in an attempt to implicate him. Possibly as a gambit to clear him, but not as an attempt to kill him. Although the second possibility may be giving him too much credit for deviousness.
But now that Agent has attempted to implicate someone, we could conceivably use non-cop roles to possibly confirm LJustus (more than he already is), by detecting whether he has a night role or not. While it would be possible that Agent could have picked a regular mafia agent with a targeting ability instead of the actual GF in order to throw us off, I kinda doubt he thought out his little gambit that far.
I don't think that in the face of an impending lynch, a mafia agent would be irrational enough to try to finger his GF for revenge, instead of trying every false claim and misinformation technique in the book to try to wriggle his way out of a lynch and buy himself time. Their own survival is the first thing on their mind, usually.
It was a desperation tactic, and not likely to work, but what could easily have been going through Agent's mind is that a GF role is a higher priority than a regular mafia role, so that the town might have been persuaded to lynch LJustus instead if they bought his claim. Alternately, he may have accepted the inevitability of his death, but hoped that the town's lack of a way to confirm this false claim would eventually lead to enough paranoid fears that LJustus could be lynched.
So why is it that you found his claim so easy to buy into?
Couple of things:
That was in response you your request that he cough up the name of a fellow mafia. What got me was the casual way this post came out. Also, saying LJustus "stabbed him in the back" when LJustus hadn't done any such thing that I could see. It was weird.
Then this:
That struck me as a genuine sentiment. Plus, again, how did LJustus turn them against him? It's somewhat counter-intuitive, but if he were trying to "frame" someone, wouldn't he be doing a better job?
That's where it sounds like he's now regretting what he did.
Plus, I wasn't in love with some of LJustus' posts up until then anyway. Particularly where he suggested that one of you, Puzzle, or Myself was likely mafia, just by virtue of still being alive. And his reaction after being fingered wasn't what I imagine mine would have been. He was remarkably calm and nonchalant about it, saying "of course he's lying..." as opposed to "WTF!!!"
I realize that's not proof of anything. Nor do you see me voting LJustus. I'd like something more concrete.
Question to you, Az: why did you ask AgentDark to give up a fellow mafia in the first place? What made you think that would work?
No, what I said was this. . .
I imagine that at least one good player is in the mafia because the odds of it are likely. There are a lot of good players in this game. It is likely that one of these good players is scum.
Please also note that I offered another explanation. . . that the mafia is trying to out-guess our doc(s). Who is most likely to receive doc protection on night one? (Active players/good analysts.)
I'm sorry if that post caused the wrong impression, but I am simply trying to make logical sense of an illogical situation (as this game inherently is).
Sorry if my nonchalance (or appearance thereof) is unsettling to you, but based on my experience in mafia games, a big reaction is more an indication of scumminess - especially to such a ludicrous accusation as this.
Also, you find it odd that AD would roll over on me (assuming that I am the mafia GF, of course) for stabbing him in the back, when you clearly recognize no such action on my part (again, assuming that I am the GF). But it makes sense to you that AD would roll over on a GF that hasn't voted for him rather than other mafia that have because the alleged GF convinced them to do so when the mafia aren't even allowed to talk privately during the day? How does this make any sense at all?
Come on Axel, I expect better from you than this.
Subjective personal impressions aren't very convincing, as evidence. In fact, they're commonly used by the mafia to support false conclusions that they can't justify in any other way.
LJustus and Axel are completely correct in saying that a claim is unwarranted at this point. All you had to justify your suspicions was an intuitive feeling about his posting style: that looks like a pretty sketchy, badly handled attempt to force a townie to claim unnecessarily. Major FOS Puzzle.
I'm sure it is, for the mafia.
It was very weird. That's why it seems so forced to me, and why I'm surprised that anyone believed him.
I dunno. It strikes me as ludicrous and sensational.
To me, it sounds as if he's trying to come with a very thin justification for why he would turn in his own GF, so that we'll believe his story and go after someone else.
Because in his opinion, like my own, Agent's claim was simply a desperation tactic with little chance of actually harming him. I wouldn't have been very worried about it, either.
I was hoping that he would try something exactly like this: try to feed us some names that we could then use to either clear or nail as mafia (most likely clear). It would also have a nice potential for sparking discussion, which it certainly has.