If he uses his ability on us, that'd be bad. Best to lynch someone else today and Vig him tonight.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, the wisdom to know the difference, and a ****ing chainsaw.
He will either die, and be proven as a liar and a mafia, or he will use his ability (which, as I said before, is of no use to us) and be proven innocent.
I agree with the first part of this analysis, that if he dies then he's mafia/sk. However, when I read the second part, ie. he doesn't die then he's town, I just thought 'what?' [hide]in a manner that sounded a lot like Eddie Izzard.[/hide] How does Kenji surviving make him town? He could be a scum, albeit an extremely powerful one, with that ability. FOS: Zoob for forgetting/not realizing that, Unvote: StevieT92 and Vote: Kenji as you are definitely more scummy than Fayul, although I don't like the role Fayul claimed, either, so FOS: Fayul because I don't have another available vote.
Pre-Preview Edit: Good point, Fayul. Unvote: Kenji, Vote: Fayul, FOS: Kenji.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Ambivalent owner of nan's soul. Proud worshipper of TFE.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
I agree with the first part of this analysis, that if he dies then he's mafia/sk. However, when I read the second part, ie. he doesn't die then he's town, I just thought 'what?' [hide]in a manner that sounded a lot like Eddie Izzard.[/hide] How does Kenji surviving make him town? He could be a scum, albeit an extremely powerful one, with that ability. FOS: Zoob for forgetting/not realizing that, Unvote: StevieT92 and Vote: Kenji as you are definitely more scummy than Fayul, although I don't like the role Fayul claimed, either, so FOS: Fayul because I don't have another available vote.
Pre-Preview Edit: Good point, Fayul. Unvote: Kenji, Vote: Fayul, FOS: Kenji.
Proven was the wrong choice of words. However, I find it impossible that a mafia could possibly have an ability this powerful.
Proven was the wrong choice of words. However, I find it impossible that a mafia could possibly have an ability this powerful.Yes, proven was definitely the wrong word to use, and I understand where you're going with that. I just disagree. And yes, it is definitely an improbable ability for a scum to have due to its power, but it's definitely not a pro-town ability. Either (a) Kenji is scum who can use the ability to deflect a lynch off himself or one of his scum teammates, or (b) Kenji is a townie who can use it to deflect the lynch off of one of his 'fans' which would make them an anti-town group that can also win with the town. Of course, there's always the chance that Kenji and Fayul and the other two are the mafia. It's a possibility, not the most likely, granted, but it is a possibility.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Ambivalent owner of nan's soul. Proud worshipper of TFE.
Carrion, I voted Kenji a while ago and my vote has not been counted.
Quote from Zoobamaphooza »
Therefore I think that we should lynch Kenji.
If we think Kenji is an SK then we shouldn't just vote for him and see what happens. Rather, we should get him to promise to change the lynch to another target of our choice, as I explained earlier. Then we vote for him, he changes it, and we can still either vig him or lynch him later. If he doesn't change it to the person we want, we will then have proof he's a bad guy.
This means that we need to find someone besides Kenji who is scummy enough to lynch. No one comes to mind just yet.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm a mathematics postdoc researching evolution and complex systems. Learn about these ideas here!
Anyway, I agree with the logic that some member of that four must be a non-townie. It could well be kenji. No matter what, I believe kenji is our best target for the day. If he misdirects a lynch, we hit him tonight or tomorrow.
Kenji, if you're a townie, that's the last thing you should be doing. Heck, mafia is a team game unless you're an SK. Individual townies don't need to be alive for the town to win. And because you have no vote, even if you're a townie, losing you doesn't actually hurt the town. But it will help us narrow down who in your Cowell group is a scum/SK, and it will let the town move on instead of fixating on what you are. If you could help the town, that'd be one thing, but since the town doesn't lose a single vote or anti-mafia ability killing you, well... that's way better than most 1st day lynches for the town, even if you are a townie.
I don't believe we can trust you with any plan, whether to deflect the lynch to someone else of our choosing or to refuse to deflect the lynch at all and take it for the good of the town. I don't believe you're a townie either, why would you talk about randomly getting someone lynched? How does that help anyone? You have no vote, which fits well with winning by an alternate means, but not with helping the town win. You suggest randomly using your ability to get someone else "randomly" killed.
Gut feeling says you're a SK/cult leader, and that we should have you vigged tonight. You got overexcited when you realised that one of your targets (for recruitment or death, I don't know) announced themselves to you and gave away too much. It happens.
If we just go ahead and leave Kenji to the mercy of night abilities, I can wait for the Cowell group I think. If he's scum of some sort, then there's no reason for the Cowellites to pop up. If he IS a voteless townie, then we can ask again politely, and anyone who doesn't pop up immediately but whom is subsequently identified as a Cowell fan will have lots of explaining to do.
However, if we do leave Kenji for the night, what do we do today?
I got angry at Fayul for lying about the extra win condition, why lie about it when we can win the normal town way as well? This action has brought a scuminess towards me, Fayul and the other 2 membes that is totally wrong. We are not scum, just townies with extra win conditions, that is all.
Please stop saying this, Kenji. It doesn't make sense. The town wins when all scum are dead. You win when only the Cowell fans are alive. If all of your group is town, then your alternate win condition is meaningless. By the time you would have won by your alternate condition, the town would have already won.
Therefore, at least one of your group is mafia.
My guess is 1 mafia, 1 SK, and 2 townies. I'm also guessing you're the SK, because it makes flavor sense. Each week, one contestant is eliminated....
If you want to stay alive, you should use your ability only when we tell you to. It won't necessarily clear you, but it might help.
Quote from Puzzle »
Side note : Their survival condition makes sense only if the Mafia wins (SK would typically try to be the last one and town winning would me, well, town wins) If the Mafia wins with 4 scums left, it is still possible that the fan group wins with all being townies. So, although it's a tempting hypothesis that one is scum, it's not a 100% given.
I think you're misunderstanding Kenji's win condition. Either that or I am. My understanding is that they have to be the ONLY players left in the game.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm a mathematics postdoc researching evolution and complex systems. Learn about these ideas here!
I think you're misunderstanding Kenji's win condition. Either that or I am. My understanding is that they have to be the ONLY players left in the game.
Correct.
And if you're so curious as to why I lied, it's because I didn't want to look to have a win condition directly contrary to the town one.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, the wisdom to know the difference, and a ****ing chainsaw.
The more I think about it, the more I think that Kenji is an SK. It seems to make the most sense. Either way, I'm in favor of the other 2 fans coming out.
I'm also worried about Fayul. She seems like a townie, but the fact that she lied disturbs me. I mean, their real win condition seems like less of a threat then the one she made up. I wonder if maybe she's the SK and her fabricated win condition was an attempt to get the other fans to come out.
Wow, the thread has been pretty eventful over the last couple days. One thing is for sure, we've got plenty to discuss, now.
Fayul, do you still intend to use your ability? I can understand your desire to use the post-blocking ability to help your alt-win, but now that that is out in the open, the odds of your achieving it are pretty slim. Since the town needs to be gathering as much information as it can from all of its members, and your townie win condition is now a much stronger bet than your alt-win, do you think you could refrain from using your post-blocking ability in the future unless asked to?
Quote from Crippled_Fist »
Uhh... Last time I saw someone saying they had an alternate win condition in addition to townie win condition they were lying (Azrael in World Dom).
Yeah, true, but I wasn't mafia either. Unless they're close to achieving their alternate win condition, we should be going after mafia rather than confirmed neutrals.
I wish they had been much more forthcoming than they have been so far, and I still have a few misgivings about Kenji given his vote for Chambers and his claimed abilities/role-name, but for the time being I think we should keep trying to gather information prior to deciding our lynch.
Also, if Kenji's claimed ability is true (it does seem very flavorful), then we probably should leave it be, at least for the moment.
Lastly, I'd like to pose a question to the town, on a hunch: how many of us don't have an alternate win condition? Secondly, do you think it would be in our best interests to force a mass alternate win condition claim, in order to prevent anyone from stealing the game out from under our noses? It would make people's individual chances go down, but by aiding everyone's primary townie win condition, it should help all the townies with alternate WCs more than it hurts them.
PP Edit:
Quote from Puzzle »
Against. Fire it within 3 days but at least try to hit scum rather than random.
We do NOT want a random kill to be made, or to lose our lynch. The entire point of disarming Kenji would be to avoid the loss of information and increase our chances of hitting scum: asking him to fire -in order to disarm himself-would completely undo all of the benefits of disarming him in the first place. We don't want a blind or random "vig" kill being made, much less one that deprives the town of our lynch during the crucial first three days, when we are in the most desperate need for information.
Don't forget, my ability isn't JUST post-blocking: I PM the people as well. Now that we've decided to hit Kenji, however, I will stop unless called upon.
Speaking of PM's....
[chamber]I don't like Turbo's claim, as the number 24 seems off.[/chamber]
He said a lot of other stuff, but....I couldn't understand it, honestly.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, the wisdom to know the difference, and a ****ing chainsaw.
Um, jc, I searched through every post on the thread that you've made, and couldn't find any vote for Kenji. However, in the spirit of cooperation, I'll assume that your first post on page 10 is a vote, since it's bolded. How does that sound?
EDIT: Nevermind, I found it. Sorry for any confusion.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
I don't even pretend to understand Puzzle (although I am starting to wonder if he's a Cowell fan trying to preserve his idol). At any rate, I'll go with him this far-it's not a good idea to lynch Kenji today. I disagree with having him fire his ability to check his claim, though, and I imagine he'll object to that too (whether because he's lying or he doesn't want to lose his ability to spite us if we try to lynch him).
So, Kenji, can we have an agreement that you won't decide today's lynch if we don't try to lynch you today?
If we find a Cowell fan who hasn't come out, that's going to look reaaaaally bad (cunning plans are no excuse). I can't see any downside to the town to have everyone know who the Cowell fans are. It doesn't expose their abilities to the mafia. If someone can find a downside, then explain it fairly soon. Please, if you're a townie and you're a Cowell fan, stand up and help us out here.
Puzzle- I'm sorry, why should we be getting "back" to the Verbal lynch? I wasn't aware that most of us had even given the time of day to a bandwagon on Verbal.
So...
Verbal wagon, two votes. Puzzle- voted Verbal in response to
Quote from Verbal »
Oh, really?
I suggest that having 8 players with these mason-esque alternate win conditions is highly unlikely. I suggest that fayul or kenji or both are mafia or serial killers.
I seriously think we should lynch one of them today on the grounds that frankly they may win tonight (if fayul's the accurate pm reader).
It seems a fairly reasonable assertion to a lot of players that one of the Cowell group is likely to be anti-town, and Fayul DID initially claim an awfully quick winning method. Yet Puzzle puts a vote in the very next post, stating:
Quote from Puzzle »
The most scummy thing I've seen so far is your will to lynch one of them without actually knowing what's going on.
And given that Verbal's previous post hadn't even contained a vote, that's quite a stretch. I don't think Verbal ever said he didn't want to know what was going on.
Of course, even dodgier was Stevie's immediate addition to the wagon:
Quote from StevieT92 »
Unvote, Vote Verbal
Finally, something concrete to go on. I like this bandwagon, as I tend to think Verbal and Kenji are cleared. (Again the only way they could be scum is with someone who can come up with great plans for the mafia) Also, I'm leaving today
I assume he meant Fayul and Kenji. Still total BS. There's no reason why they couldn't be telling the truth about having a an alternate win-condition group and still be on opposite sides. Heck, IIRC Stevie was a mafia who was masons with a townie during Dollar mafia, and they had connected (though opposing) win conditions. I don't see why he'd assume any weird group scenario couldn't happen.
Stevie's speed to jump onto someone else's bandwagon for BS reasons is dead scummy to me. Puzzle is behaving strangely and is now eager to return to a nowhere bandwagon inhabited only by himself and Stevie. I don't know who to choose. I was initially going to say Stevie, but I'm going to be arrogant and just assume for now that Stevie's vote was being silly while in a rush to say something before going on vacation. Puzzle's dodginess has come out in more than one post. Vote Puzzle
It occurs to me that there might possibly be a downside for the Cowell "fans" (the two who are left) to come out. (A) it's possible that they could be the target of another role. I'm imagining "Paula Abdul" or some other such thing whose "alternate" win (or even their primary win) is to eliminate Cowell's fans. That might be a bit of a stretch, but literally anything is possible in this game. Part of what makes me wonder this is just the number of people who are asking for this information. If you believe Fayul (and/or Kenji) then these roles are townie roles. The alternate win does not come into play until the very end, and even then under extremely narrow circumstances. The benefit to the town is that there appears to be a high probability that at least one of them is a scum role of some kind.
However, if Turbo could provide some additional details about the number of roles with alternate wins, it might help to clarify this situation. From his last post, it made it look (contrary to his earlier post) like the "fans" were the only group with an alternate win. The four "doubles" as he put it. Now maybe what he meant is that there are only 4 with a double win condition (townie + their own) but there are several roles that have their own independent win condition and apparantly do not have the town win condition. Those roles by definition would be anti-town, whereas it would make the "fans" (including Kenji) look much better by comparison.
Now if you don't believe them--and I still think Kenji in particular is suspect for being a SK of some kind--then you should be voting for them right now, and heck with Kenji's re-direct (you have to get through it eventually, right?)
I'd recommend caution, that's all I'm saying. In a game like this, the mafia have less information than usual because things are so screwy. I wouldn't want to feed then more unnecessarily.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I'm rather curious what Puzzle's Day 3 deadline is all about...maybe some 'use it or lose it' or 'can't use til day 3' ability?
Quote from Axelrod »
However, if Turbo could provide some additional details about the number of roles with alternate wins, it might help to clarify this situation. From his last post, it made it look (contrary to his earlier post) like the "fans" were the only group with an alternate win. The four "doubles" as he put it. Now maybe what he meant is that there are only 4 with a double win condition (townie + their own) but there are several roles that have their own independent win condition and apparantly do not have the town win condition. Those roles by definition would be anti-town, whereas it would make the "fans" (including Kenji) look much better by comparison.
Not sure how they contradicted each other, but I said there were 24 win conditions and 20 people, so 4 people have 2 conditions. I did it to add info to the cowell 4some discussion, but yes, there could be a cowell fan with no other win condiotion (town/mafia whatever) and thus another townie/mafia/sk with multiple wc's.
I plan on sharing the rest of the info when most of the town wants it, but for now I won't deny that there could be more than one anti-town person that's not mafia or sk.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Mucho thx to Erasmus of Erad's Sig Shop for my gosu 'Tog-eatin VICIOUS KAVU !!!
Quote from Sir Blakely »
turbo...my god. you have reached Uber-Nerd-Dom (TM).
Not much to say. Just htat if kenji is about to be lynched the logic is there for him to send it somewhere random. He knows that, at the very least, that he is town. This is indeed different from a night one vig since someone has to die anyways. Later
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please abide by all rules and regulations of MTGS its parent and its affiliates. Malicious activity will result in termination of your account. Do not smoke fake weed. Refrain from trolling the staff and/or its sponsored trolls. This may result in your suspension or account termination. Do not reveal the location of Senior Staff members. Do not purchase Big Gulps outside of Manhattan to bring them there. Do not purchase Kinder Surprise eggs. Offer expires after 40 days. Cursing Annorax optional.
Not sure how they contradicted each other, but I said there were 24 win conditions and 20 people, so 4 people have 2 conditions. I did it to add info to the cowell 4some discussion, but yes, there could be a cowell fan with no other win condiotion (town/mafia whatever) and thus another townie/mafia/sk with multiple wc's.
I plan on sharing the rest of the info when most of the town wants it, but for now I won't deny that there could be more than one anti-town person that's not mafia or sk.
Turbo, you are being awfully cagey with information that appears to be useful for the town to have. Perhaps there is some downside that I do not know about. Why won't you say how many anti-town forces there are in the game?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
What would my interest be in preserving my idol ? Everyone can now easily prevent the group of four from winning.
I'll also repeat that there is no need for Kenji to fire today. As we are not in a lynch-or-lose situation, his ability is not an immediate danger, so it doesn't hurt. We can always make him spit it out later, as long as we are far enough from the danger zone. It wouldn't be the end of the world to have him fire today but there is no rush for that, imo.
We don't want him to fire randomly at all, ever. Bad, bad, bad idea. But if we ever feel it's necessary to disarm him, then we ask him to use his ability to nail our selected lynch target. But given that his alternate WC is pretty much irrelevant now, and the odds of his being SK aren't terribly high, I'm not sure that's even an issue.
Quote from Puzzle »
The problem is that at this point Verbal jumped to the conclusion that either or both were scum although he admittedly didn't know if they had the same win condition or not and ignoring that Fayul's abilities is very unlikely a scum's. And the scum could very well be one of the other fans.
Let's see what he said : " I seriously think we should lynch one of them today on the grounds that frankly they may win tonight". Is it that much of a stretch ?
Granted. It remains that Verbal's attack was done without understanding the situation, which was the scummiest thing I had seen so far.
As I felt the same, I certainly can't blame him.
If you can't blame him, then why did you want us to vote for him?
Quote from Puzzle »
I actually think more and more that I will have to crack the nut before day 3 if the vig gets too much encouragement to kill Kenji. Explaining why before day 3 would not be a major drama but I would really rather avoid it.
Can we please agree not to use the vig on Kenji before night 4, after day 3 (we began at night) ?
Wait a minute, now you're suggesting that it would be an acceptable loss to vig kill Kenji on night 5 rather than night 2-4?? Why on earth would we want to vig-kill Kenji at all, when his ability and allegiance can be at least partially confirmed for us?? It'd be giving the mafia a free kill.
Can we please agree not to use the vig on Kenji before night 4, after day 3 (we began at night) ?
I'm not sure if the town should agree to this based on information that only you have. I guess it depends on how much we trust you...
Quote from Axelrod »
Turbo, you are being awfully cagey with information that appears to be useful for the town to have. Perhaps there is some downside that I do not know about. Why won't you say how many anti-town forces there are in the game?
Ok, let's be careful with this. If we want to follow Azrael's suggestion of a mass alternate-WC claim, then we want him to keep the alternate WC numbers to himself until after the claim, so we can trap liars.
I guess it wouldn't hurt to know how many townies and mafia there are, but I'd like other people to weigh in before pushing Turbo to reveal those numbers.
I'll be going on vacation in three hours and I won't have internet access until Sunday or Monday.
EWP:
Quote from Azrael »
But given that his alternate WC is pretty much irrelevant now, and the odds of his being SK aren't terribly high, I'm not sure that's even an issue.
What makes you think he's unlikely to be an SK? I think it makes perfect sense, both flavor-wise and mechanics-wise. He eliminates everyone but his fans, and then he wins.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm a mathematics postdoc researching evolution and complex systems. Learn about these ideas here!
He will either die, and be proven as a liar and a mafia, or he will use his ability (which, as I said before, is of no use to us) and be proven innocent.
I agree with the first part of this analysis, that if he dies then he's mafia/sk. However, when I read the second part, ie. he doesn't die then he's town, I just thought 'what?' [hide]in a manner that sounded a lot like Eddie Izzard.[/hide] How does Kenji surviving make him town? He could be a scum, albeit an extremely powerful one, with that ability. FOS: Zoob for forgetting/not realizing that, Unvote: StevieT92 and Vote: Kenji as you are definitely more scummy than Fayul, although I don't like the role Fayul claimed, either, so FOS: Fayul because I don't have another available vote.
Pre-Preview Edit: Good point, Fayul. Unvote: Kenji, Vote: Fayul, FOS: Kenji.
Also, this is the scummiest post I have read in the last few days....
Vote: swinkee
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I guess it wouldn't hurt to know how many townies and mafia there are, but I'd like other people to weigh in before pushing Turbo to reveal those numbers.
Yes, if he can give us some more exact numbers, it would be great.
Quote from jcsuperstar »
What makes you think he's unlikely to be an SK? I think it makes perfect sense, both flavor-wise and mechanics-wise. He eliminates everyone but his fans, and then he wins.
Hmm. That's a good point, but where I was coming from was that it'd be a pretty wacky role to have a SK with an alternate win condition AND the lynch redirection ability, along with his usual night-kill powers. It's a bit of a stretch, although, this is random mafia, and anything is possible.
1. He was at least partially against the other Cowell fans coming out. It benefits the town to know who they are because at least one of them is probably mafia.
2. Even though he reccommends "caution" in giving the mafia free info, he wants Turbo to reveal the numbers for ALL the alternate win conditions; not just the mafia and town. This would make it much harder for us to trap liars in the event that we force a mass alt-WC claim.
3. He votes Swinkee without giving an arguement. Nothing in swinkee's post seems scummy to me.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm a mathematics postdoc researching evolution and complex systems. Learn about these ideas here!
- and I strongly doubt he is a SK. If he was, he wouldn't have had the same win as the three others and wouldn't have found it, particularly after Fayul came forward with a wrong one.
That sentence made no sense. Of course he could have an alternate WC. Instead of killing everyone, he only kills the people who don't love him.
Until I know the secret info you are hiding, I will still think Kenji is an SK and reccommend he be vigged.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm a mathematics postdoc researching evolution and complex systems. Learn about these ideas here!
1. He was at least partially against the other Cowell fans coming out. It benefits the town to know who they are because at least one of them is probably mafia.
Meh. I'm not totally against it. I'm just advising caution for the reasons I stated. On the other hand, maybe I just don't think it's necessary because I have figured out who they are. So .
Quote from jcsuperstar »
2. Even though he reccommends "caution" in giving the mafia free info, he wants Turbo to reveal the numbers for ALL the alternate win conditions; not just the mafia and town. This would make it much harder for us to trap liars in the event that we force a mass alt-WC claim.
I want him to tell us how many scum there are in this game. That's not quite the same thing. But anyway, I don't understand your idea that we can "trap" someone via claiming an alternate win condition. How exactly would this happen. You think someone who doesn't have an alternate win condition is going to claim to have one? Or you think someone who does have an alternate win will pretend not to? The latter is the only one that makes sense, but exactly how would you tell and thus "trap" them if they lied.
Quote from jcsuperstar »
3. He votes Swinkee without giving an arguement. Nothing in swinkee's post seems scummy to me.
That post was scummy. I'll explain it to you later. Maybe.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
That post was scummy. I'll explain it to you later. Maybe.
What about it was scummy? The fact that I switched votes mid-post? I didn't see Fayul's post about Kenji moving the lynch, so I moved my vote to my second option: Fayul. So by all means, please explain the scumminess. It helps everyone.
And Turbo, when I first saw you say that there were 24 win conditions, I thought it meant 24 seperate win conditions.:sweat: Because that would require everyone to have a secondary win condition, which is silly.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Ambivalent owner of nan's soul. Proud worshipper of TFE.
I want him to tell us how many scum there are in this game. That's not quite the same thing. But anyway, I don't understand your idea that we can "trap" someone via claiming an alternate win condition. How exactly would this happen. You think someone who doesn't have an alternate win condition is going to claim to have one? Or you think someone who does have an alternate win will pretend not to? The latter is the only one that makes sense, but exactly how would you tell and thus "trap" them if they lied.
If the wrong number of people claim a win condition (either too many or too few) then we will be able to tell that SOMEONE is lying. We won't know exactly who, but it will still be useful information.
Quote from Axelrod »
That post was scummy. I'll explain it to you later. Maybe.
mmmm... condescending...
Let's look at the post, shall we?
Quote from swinkee »
I agree with the first part of this analysis, that if he dies then he's mafia/sk. However, when I read the second part, ie. he doesn't die then he's town, I just thought 'what?' How does Kenji surviving make him town? He could be a scum, albeit an extremely powerful one, with that ability. FOS: Zoob for forgetting/not realizing that, Unvote: StevieT92 and Vote: Kenji as you are definitely more scummy than Fayul, although I don't like the role Fayul claimed, either, so FOS: Fayul because I don't have another available vote.
Pre-Preview Edit: Good point, Fayul. Unvote: Kenji, Vote: Fayul, FOS: Kenji.
He points out an obvious flaw in zoob's logic, and FOSes him for it. He thinks both Fayul and Kenji are scummy, but thinks Kenji is more so. Then he realizes that Kenji can't be lynched today, so he votes Fayul instead.
Makes sense to me.
This is my last post before Sunday/Monday. Have a good weekend!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm a mathematics postdoc researching evolution and complex systems. Learn about these ideas here!
Chamber supports the call for Turbo to come forward.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, the wisdom to know the difference, and a ****ing chainsaw.
turbo, the way you've stated your ability is odd. i got confused just like swinkee when you said that there were 24 win conditions. as a note to those who want to try and 'trap' people using the win condition info - if the assumption that there are 4 people with two win conditions, then there is no way to trap people by with the information we have, because we already know that no one besides a member of the cowell group has an alternate win condition.
about kenji, i don't think we should try to lynch him today, and we definately shouldn't vig him tonight. he seems very unlikely to be anything but town. about the cowell group's alternate win condition, i may be misunderstanding, but as kenji stated, it sounds like they win if some other win condition is triggered and all of them are still alive, not that they have to be the only ones left alive. i'd like this cleared up if at all possible, so if either kenji or fayul can clear it up and would be so kind, i'd much appreciate it.
having said all that, i am going to fos: swinkee - something about that post that axelrod has highlighted does stike me as scummy, though i'm not quite sure what
i am also going to fos: jcsuperstar - something about jc is striking me as scummy, though i can't put my finger on it
The Simon group wins if they 4 are the only people alive.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, the wisdom to know the difference, and a ****ing chainsaw.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
What would my interest be in preserving my idol ? Everyone can now easily prevent the group of four from winning.
What is this wine I see in front of me? Just because we CAN stop the 4 doesn't mean you can't try to talk us into plans that involve killing none of the 4. This statement of yours is really disingenuous at best.
Quote from Puzzle »
I'll also repeat that there is no need for Kenji to fire today. As we are not in a lynch-or-lose situation, his ability is not an immediate danger, so it doesn't hurt. We can always make him spit it out later, as long as we are far enough from the danger zone. It wouldn't be the end of the world to have him fire today but there is no rush for that, imo.
Not the end of the world, maybe, but what benefit is there for the town in having Kenji determine the lynch at all? Ever? The best case scenario would be Kenji volunteering to auto-lynch the person the town was going to lynch anyway and thus disarming himself. Which I sincerely doubt will ever happen.
Quote from Puzzle »
Seconded, with an opening to having him lynch the person of the town's choice at the very end of the day, although I'd rather avoid that right now (see above). Oh, and I repeat my strong opposition to his vigging.
Good for you. I'm almost starting to come back from voting for you, just because I am becoming so convinced that you benefit from keeping him alive and are a Cowell fan, but then you could easily be the mafia Cowell fan.
Quote from Puzzle »
I guess Axelrod's post makes sense about exposing the 2 other fans. Maybe this can wait a bit.
Or maybe it's just nicely convenient for you to have someone else's argument to latch on to. I don't agree with Axelrod's argument. I know my role has 100% no connection to American Idol. We also know there's this soul-removal role and this Jaws of Life thing are around. This is random mafia, not AI mafia. I was amazed enough that there's apparently 3 roles which are all Cowell fans.
Remember, it makes literally no sense if the Cowell group are all town. Them being the sole survivors would just be a case of a town win (4 townies alive, no mafia or SK). And if the group already contains a scum, I don't buy that there's a 5th person outside the group also with a win condition based around eliminating them. How many scum do we need to be centered around this one group? That would seriously warp the entire game to be all about them (since you'd have one scum trying to kill everyone but those people, and one trying to kill them all including outing the scum in the group).
Quote from Puzzle »
The problem is that at this point Verbal jumped to the conclusion that either or both were scum although he admittedly didn't know if they had the same win condition or not and ignoring that Fayul's abilities is very unlikely a scum's. And the scum could very well be one of the other fans.
Who knows what ability is likely to be what's in this game? I see what you're saying about jumping to the concluson though. There's no reason to be suspicious of Fayul and Kenji only but not also of the others who haven't come out yet. Indeed, it makes Fayul and Kenji look a bit better that they've been willing to be forward while others in their group... not so much.
Quote from Puzzle »
That's sort of how he won Dollar for the Mafia.
As I read it, Dollar was won by the mafia because the town did a really, really stupid double lynch. Interestingly, they had two mason pairs which were each likely to contain a mafia (and which both DID contain a mafia), and they were on the edge of realising that in both cases. Some people did realise that. And yet, if they had to make a double lynch, they didn't make it of either of those pairs. Let's not make the same mistake here, hmm?
Quote from Puzzle »
Can we please agree not to use the vig on Kenji before night 4, after day 3 (we began at night) ?
I think you can see why I'm increadingly sure you're one of the Cowell fans. Hey, Fayul and Kenji, I figure that at least SOMEONE in this drama is town so I might get a straight answer: is your goal to survive past a certain day together, not to survive to the end of the game? Of course, it's possible that Puzzle alone gains something from this. Hey, perhaps it's because he's the scum of the group!
Quote from Puzzle »
Well, now my point is out. Kenji is almost a confirmed townie when you think of it :
- he can't be Mafia, his ability being too powerful for the late game (already discussed).
- and I strongly doubt he is a SK. If he was, he wouldn't have had the same win as the three others and wouldn't have found it, particularly after Fayul came forward with a wrong one.
He has no vote (confirmed). Even for a mafia, that's a drawback to balance with a strong ability. Now, we only have his word that he even has this auto-lynch ability. It's effectively a daykill, and that's not horribly imbalanced, especially with a drawback and if the town have good abilities too (which is plausible). And if he's scum, he might not even have that, he might just be scaring us from lynching him. Considered that? But if you're the scum, you know the truth and that he has no reason to lie about his ability, and that might be why you're ignoring the possibility of him lying.
That's a bad reason why he can't be SK. He could easily have the same win as the others: only the Cowell people alive. That makes a lot of sense for an SK win condition in a large game, a bit less impossible than getting EVERYONE killed. And note that he DID find Fayul even though Fayul came forward with the wrong win condition. What do you mean he wouldn't have found it after Fayul come forward with the wrong condition? You're being way too illogical for anything but a desperation attempt to fog.
Quote from Puzzle »
Second misinterpretation.
I was trying at the same time :
- not to confirm Kenji officially too early, as this spreads the doc even more.
- to prevent his vig kill, which has been advocated by several and I admit crossed my mind before I thought of his chances of being scum.
I intended to confirm that Kenji is unlikely to be scum by day 3.
-Kenji is so far from confirmed it isn't funny. Even if he blasts someone with the auto-lynch today, he's far from confirmed. And even if he was confirmed, a townie without a vote is USELESS to the town (one of the reasons that makes me so suspicious of Kenji still) and is not requiring of doc protection. The way you keep waving doc protection like a banner is kind of scummy.
-And if you're so concerned about spreading doc protection, why say that YOU intend to confirm Kenji by day 3? If you actually are town, isn't that an open invitation for the mafia to knock you off if you're capable of confirming people? It's very nice for you, though, the way it would take a couple of days to do it and thus keep the town away from you for at least a couple of days while you try to arrange for something else to occupy our arguments. And then you get up and say "Kenji's a confirmed town! Yay!".
I don't believe you'd be trying to pull this stuff if you were town. It's not helpful.
Oh, and Fayul: is your role-name just "Cowell fan", or is it something else and the Cowell fan bit is just part of the description?
Oh, and Fayul: is your role-name just "Cowell fan", or is it something else and the Cowell fan bit is just part of the description?
Seconded, unvote vote fayul. Just to encourage that. Axlerod might be a cowel fan with masonry with the other. I think the cowel group is like a secon mafia without a night kill and without night conunication. Not much else to say. <out
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please abide by all rules and regulations of MTGS its parent and its affiliates. Malicious activity will result in termination of your account. Do not smoke fake weed. Refrain from trolling the staff and/or its sponsored trolls. This may result in your suspension or account termination. Do not reveal the location of Senior Staff members. Do not purchase Big Gulps outside of Manhattan to bring them there. Do not purchase Kinder Surprise eggs. Offer expires after 40 days. Cursing Annorax optional.
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, the wisdom to know the difference, and a ****ing chainsaw.
rafael, you're missing one thing that makes puzzle being in the cowell group pretty unlikely: he was calling for the other two fans to come forward. if he was a fan, he would have likely come forward at that point - though the fact that he didn't doesn't mean that he isn't a cowell fan... though i don't think he is.
fos: rafael because something about your attack on puzzle seems scummy, though by no means is puzzle clear himself.
To silicon- not missing that at all. Just because he's calling for Cowell fans to come out doesn't mean that he's now one himself, just as someone saying they want to find the mafia doesn't mean they're not mafia. If he's a Cowell fan, now that we already know about the group anyway I'd expect him to want to know who the last person is.
unvote Glad that was cleared up. Asking the cowell fans coming forward would be pretty pointless. If someone was mafia they'd just keep it to themself. I'm going to go out on a limb and ask the cowel fans not to come forward. That's my $335.54 <out
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please abide by all rules and regulations of MTGS its parent and its affiliates. Malicious activity will result in termination of your account. Do not smoke fake weed. Refrain from trolling the staff and/or its sponsored trolls. This may result in your suspension or account termination. Do not reveal the location of Senior Staff members. Do not purchase Big Gulps outside of Manhattan to bring them there. Do not purchase Kinder Surprise eggs. Offer expires after 40 days. Cursing Annorax optional.
I don't want to get bogged down on whether Puzzle is a Cowell fan or not. It has implications, of course- maybe he doesn't want to admit it because he's scum, or maybe he doesn't want to admit it because he's town and doesn't want to add himself to the chopping block order, and maybe he doesn't admit it because he's not actually a Cowell fan.
My position for now is that Puzzle is scummy- hence my vote. If he turns out to be a Cowell fan it might make me reconsider, since it would explain his adamance that Kenji is not scum and should not be killed or lynched, and that Kenji is somehow worthy of doc protection even though his stated abilities don't benefit the town at all.
Puzzle is acting as if he has inside information. We KNOW that there was no inspections night 1, or I would have long ago assumed he was hinting at cop and backed off a little. There's generally three ways to have inside information without inspection. Have the info in your role, be a mason, be a mafia. Mason appears to be out in this case, so he either has reason in his role to be so adamant about Kenji (Cowell fan, most likely) or he's a mafia and knows that Kenji's not one of his.
Re: CropCircles: IF he's a Cowell fan and not just a scum, then he'd like an excuse as to why he didn't come out. If he's found out it's one thing if he can say "I wanted to come out but the town was against it", but very different if it was him arguing to not come out. That's all reliant on him being one of the Cowell group, though. Otherwise, he's just being plain confusing, first backing one argument and then another.
Puzzle has given enough subliminal hints that he's a cowell fan for us to safely assume it: The most of it referring to Simon as my "idol" before his name came out, assuming that he already by some avenue he already knew that it was, in fact, Simon Cowell.
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, the wisdom to know the difference, and a ****ing chainsaw.
Yes, well, I figured Puzzle was a fan as well via the above point. The question now is whether we want to make Simon and his fans the focus of the day. If so, the last one should announce himself/herself. I'm just worried about a situation where (because we think there is a scum in there) we keep going after them until they are all gone and might end up trading 3 townies (with unknown/potentially valuable roles) for one scum, which might be a SK. And possibly there are, in fact, no scum in there at all? I'm still conflicted about this, frankly.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
One of us has to be non-town, otherwise posessing our win condition along with the non-town win condition is redundant.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, the wisdom to know the difference, and a ****ing chainsaw.
Well, now my point is out. Kenji is almost a confirmed townie when you think of it :
- he can't be Mafia, his ability being too powerful for the late game (already discussed).
- and I strongly doubt he is a SK. If he was, he wouldn't have had the same win as the three others and wouldn't have found it, particularly after Fayul came forward with a wrong one.
Right, but what's the sense in trying to confuse the town by not agreeing with other analysts that he's partially confirmed, and then setting up some kind of bogus test that will "clear" him later on in the game? And if you're a townie, how would you have any guarantee that you would live that long? (You probably shouldn't answer that)
Quote from Puzzle »
I was talking of StevieT92 there...
*sheepish* That's what I get for skimming through the thread.
Quote from Puzzle »
Second misinterpretation.
I was trying at the same time :
- not to confirm Kenji officially too early, as this spreads the doc even more.
- to prevent his vig kill, which has been advocated by several and I admit crossed my mind before I thought of his chances of being scum.
I intended to confirm that Kenji is unlikely to be scum by day 3.
Thing is, the town has enough experienced posters in it that a large number of them would realize that he's partially confirmed, so trying to keep it under wraps is kind of pointless. And as he's not a power role, and he's not 100% cleared, I'm not sure he'd be a target for the mafia or SK anyways.
Quote from Puzzle »
I certainly never said to vig him night 4 or 5 or later. I said not to vig him in nights 2 and 3.
Right, which would imply that after that it might be more acceptable, if he wasn't cleared conclusively by you later on.
Also, you mis-intrepeted my point about your plan for Kenji's ability. I'm not only against Kenji firing today, I'm against him firing any time in the conceivable future. We don't want to give up the information we would gain from a lynch, and we don't want to have a townie randomly killed.
*looks at Puzzle anxiously* You don't still have a case of dominaria mafia syndrome, do you?
Ever considered :
1. that I may not be a Cowell fan ?
Yup. I said that, in fact. My last post was kind of aimed at pointing out that you being a Cowell fan should not be taken as a given and noting how scummy you were being. I currently rank the chance of you being scum of some descritpion as greater than the chance of you being a townie Cowell fan. You just don't seem to have had the town's interests in mind with some of the stuff you've tried to pull.
Quote from Puzzle »
2. reading my #164, first part as to why I think Kenji is very likely town ?
I did answer that. Please don't do this "he's not paying attention to my answers" thing, it's annoying. I answered that directly in post 175. I even quoted that post of yours when I did it.
To save time for all concerned, I'll quote your first part of 164 here followed by the part of my post 175 which responded to that.
Quote from Puzzle"s post #164 »
Kenji is almost a confirmed townie when you think of it :
- he can't be Mafia, his ability being too powerful for the late game (already discussed).
- and I strongly doubt he is a SK. If he was, he wouldn't have had the same win as the three others and wouldn't have found it, particularly after Fayul came forward with a wrong one.
Quote from Raf"s post #175 »
He has no vote (confirmed). Even for a mafia, that's a drawback to balance with a strong ability. Now, we only have his word that he even has this auto-lynch ability. It's effectively a daykill, and that's not horribly imbalanced, especially with a drawback and if the town have good abilities too (which is plausible). And if he's scum, he might not even have that, he might just be scaring us from lynching him. Considered that? But if you're the scum, you know the truth and that he has no reason to lie about his ability, and that might be why you're ignoring the possibility of him lying.
That's a bad reason why he can't be SK. He could easily have the same win as the others: only the Cowell people alive. That makes a lot of sense for an SK win condition in a large game, a bit less impossible than getting EVERYONE killed. And note that he DID find Fayul even though Fayul came forward with the wrong win condition. What do you mean he wouldn't have found it after Fayul come forward with the wrong condition? You're being way too illogical for anything but a desperation attempt to fog.
Vote stands on Puzzle. His replies are just delaying tactics, not actually raising anything but attempting to put people off by referring to past posts and claiming people aren't responding and making contradictory claims to get people to run in circles. I fully expect you to say "I didn't see that you'd responded to that", but given that you quoted my post I expect you to have read it enough to know that I have most certainly considered that you're not a Cowell fan and that I've responded to your argument already.
Okay, Puzzle, since you are now denying it, here's your "hint."
Quote from Puzzle in post #97 »
@ Fayul : your PM implied your idol was a member of the Mafia ? Give us some more info than that, please.
Where before this post did Kenji (or Fayul) use the word "idol?" I don't see it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Pre-Preview Edit: Good point, Fayul. Unvote: Kenji, Vote: Fayul, FOS: Kenji.
Proud worshipper of TFE.
Axelrod- (Musashi)
Verbal- (Puzzle, StevieT92)
Fayul- (Crippled_Fist, swinkee)
Kenji- (Zoobamaphooza)
Mafia MVP BM Mafia
Mafia MVP Matrix Mafia
Proven was the wrong choice of words. However, I find it impossible that a mafia could possibly have an ability this powerful.
Proud worshipper of TFE.
If we think Kenji is an SK then we shouldn't just vote for him and see what happens. Rather, we should get him to promise to change the lynch to another target of our choice, as I explained earlier. Then we vote for him, he changes it, and we can still either vig him or lynch him later. If he doesn't change it to the person we want, we will then have proof he's a bad guy.
This means that we need to find someone besides Kenji who is scummy enough to lynch. No one comes to mind just yet.
Also, what happened to 'neutrals must die'?
Anyway, I agree with the logic that some member of that four must be a non-townie. It could well be kenji. No matter what, I believe kenji is our best target for the day. If he misdirects a lynch, we hit him tonight or tomorrow.
I don't believe we can trust you with any plan, whether to deflect the lynch to someone else of our choosing or to refuse to deflect the lynch at all and take it for the good of the town. I don't believe you're a townie either, why would you talk about randomly getting someone lynched? How does that help anyone? You have no vote, which fits well with winning by an alternate means, but not with helping the town win. You suggest randomly using your ability to get someone else "randomly" killed.
Gut feeling says you're a SK/cult leader, and that we should have you vigged tonight. You got overexcited when you realised that one of your targets (for recruitment or death, I don't know) announced themselves to you and gave away too much. It happens.
FOS-with-a-recommendation-to-have-nightkilled: Kenji
If we just go ahead and leave Kenji to the mercy of night abilities, I can wait for the Cowell group I think. If he's scum of some sort, then there's no reason for the Cowellites to pop up. If he IS a voteless townie, then we can ask again politely, and anyone who doesn't pop up immediately but whom is subsequently identified as a Cowell fan will have lots of explaining to do.
However, if we do leave Kenji for the night, what do we do today?
Please stop saying this, Kenji. It doesn't make sense. The town wins when all scum are dead. You win when only the Cowell fans are alive. If all of your group is town, then your alternate win condition is meaningless. By the time you would have won by your alternate condition, the town would have already won.
Therefore, at least one of your group is mafia.
My guess is 1 mafia, 1 SK, and 2 townies. I'm also guessing you're the SK, because it makes flavor sense. Each week, one contestant is eliminated....
If you want to stay alive, you should use your ability only when we tell you to. It won't necessarily clear you, but it might help.
I think you're misunderstanding Kenji's win condition. Either that or I am. My understanding is that they have to be the ONLY players left in the game.
Correct.
And if you're so curious as to why I lied, it's because I didn't want to look to have a win condition directly contrary to the town one.
I'm also worried about Fayul. She seems like a townie, but the fact that she lied disturbs me. I mean, their real win condition seems like less of a threat then the one she made up. I wonder if maybe she's the SK and her fabricated win condition was an attempt to get the other fans to come out.
[The Family]
Wow, the thread has been pretty eventful over the last couple days. One thing is for sure, we've got plenty to discuss, now.
Fayul, do you still intend to use your ability? I can understand your desire to use the post-blocking ability to help your alt-win, but now that that is out in the open, the odds of your achieving it are pretty slim. Since the town needs to be gathering as much information as it can from all of its members, and your townie win condition is now a much stronger bet than your alt-win, do you think you could refrain from using your post-blocking ability in the future unless asked to?
Yeah, true, but I wasn't mafia either. Unless they're close to achieving their alternate win condition, we should be going after mafia rather than confirmed neutrals.
I wish they had been much more forthcoming than they have been so far, and I still have a few misgivings about Kenji given his vote for Chambers and his claimed abilities/role-name, but for the time being I think we should keep trying to gather information prior to deciding our lynch.
Also, if Kenji's claimed ability is true (it does seem very flavorful), then we probably should leave it be, at least for the moment.
Lastly, I'd like to pose a question to the town, on a hunch: how many of us don't have an alternate win condition? Secondly, do you think it would be in our best interests to force a mass alternate win condition claim, in order to prevent anyone from stealing the game out from under our noses? It would make people's individual chances go down, but by aiding everyone's primary townie win condition, it should help all the townies with alternate WCs more than it hurts them.
PP Edit:
We do NOT want a random kill to be made, or to lose our lynch. The entire point of disarming Kenji would be to avoid the loss of information and increase our chances of hitting scum: asking him to fire -in order to disarm himself-would completely undo all of the benefits of disarming him in the first place. We don't want a blind or random "vig" kill being made, much less one that deprives the town of our lynch during the crucial first three days, when we are in the most desperate need for information.
FOS Puzzle. What were you thinking??
Speaking of PM's....
[chamber]I don't like Turbo's claim, as the number 24 seems off.[/chamber]
He said a lot of other stuff, but....I couldn't understand it, honestly.
EDIT: Nevermind, I found it. Sorry for any confusion.
Mafia MVP BM Mafia
Mafia MVP Matrix Mafia
So, Kenji, can we have an agreement that you won't decide today's lynch if we don't try to lynch you today?
If we find a Cowell fan who hasn't come out, that's going to look reaaaaally bad (cunning plans are no excuse). I can't see any downside to the town to have everyone know who the Cowell fans are. It doesn't expose their abilities to the mafia. If someone can find a downside, then explain it fairly soon. Please, if you're a townie and you're a Cowell fan, stand up and help us out here.
Puzzle- I'm sorry, why should we be getting "back" to the Verbal lynch? I wasn't aware that most of us had even given the time of day to a bandwagon on Verbal.
So...
Verbal wagon, two votes. Puzzle- voted Verbal in response to
It seems a fairly reasonable assertion to a lot of players that one of the Cowell group is likely to be anti-town, and Fayul DID initially claim an awfully quick winning method. Yet Puzzle puts a vote in the very next post, stating:
And given that Verbal's previous post hadn't even contained a vote, that's quite a stretch. I don't think Verbal ever said he didn't want to know what was going on.
Of course, even dodgier was Stevie's immediate addition to the wagon:
I assume he meant Fayul and Kenji. Still total BS. There's no reason why they couldn't be telling the truth about having a an alternate win-condition group and still be on opposite sides. Heck, IIRC Stevie was a mafia who was masons with a townie during Dollar mafia, and they had connected (though opposing) win conditions. I don't see why he'd assume any weird group scenario couldn't happen.
Stevie's speed to jump onto someone else's bandwagon for BS reasons is dead scummy to me. Puzzle is behaving strangely and is now eager to return to a nowhere bandwagon inhabited only by himself and Stevie. I don't know who to choose. I was initially going to say Stevie, but I'm going to be arrogant and just assume for now that Stevie's vote was being silly while in a rush to say something before going on vacation. Puzzle's dodginess has come out in more than one post. Vote Puzzle
However, if Turbo could provide some additional details about the number of roles with alternate wins, it might help to clarify this situation. From his last post, it made it look (contrary to his earlier post) like the "fans" were the only group with an alternate win. The four "doubles" as he put it. Now maybe what he meant is that there are only 4 with a double win condition (townie + their own) but there are several roles that have their own independent win condition and apparantly do not have the town win condition. Those roles by definition would be anti-town, whereas it would make the "fans" (including Kenji) look much better by comparison.
Now if you don't believe them--and I still think Kenji in particular is suspect for being a SK of some kind--then you should be voting for them right now, and heck with Kenji's re-direct (you have to get through it eventually, right?)
I'd recommend caution, that's all I'm saying. In a game like this, the mafia have less information than usual because things are so screwy. I wouldn't want to feed then more unnecessarily.
Not sure how they contradicted each other, but I said there were 24 win conditions and 20 people, so 4 people have 2 conditions. I did it to add info to the cowell 4some discussion, but yes, there could be a cowell fan with no other win condiotion (town/mafia whatever) and thus another townie/mafia/sk with multiple wc's.
I plan on sharing the rest of the info when most of the town wants it, but for now I won't deny that there could be more than one anti-town person that's not mafia or sk.
Turbo, you are being awfully cagey with information that appears to be useful for the town to have. Perhaps there is some downside that I do not know about. Why won't you say how many anti-town forces there are in the game?
We don't want him to fire randomly at all, ever. Bad, bad, bad idea. But if we ever feel it's necessary to disarm him, then we ask him to use his ability to nail our selected lynch target. But given that his alternate WC is pretty much irrelevant now, and the odds of his being SK aren't terribly high, I'm not sure that's even an issue.
If you can't blame him, then why did you want us to vote for him?
Wait a minute, now you're suggesting that it would be an acceptable loss to vig kill Kenji on night 5 rather than night 2-4?? Why on earth would we want to vig-kill Kenji at all, when his ability and allegiance can be at least partially confirmed for us?? It'd be giving the mafia a free kill.
Vote Puzzle.
I'm not sure if the town should agree to this based on information that only you have. I guess it depends on how much we trust you...
Ok, let's be careful with this. If we want to follow Azrael's suggestion of a mass alternate-WC claim, then we want him to keep the alternate WC numbers to himself until after the claim, so we can trap liars.
I guess it wouldn't hurt to know how many townies and mafia there are, but I'd like other people to weigh in before pushing Turbo to reveal those numbers.
I'll be going on vacation in three hours and I won't have internet access until Sunday or Monday.
EWP:
What makes you think he's unlikely to be an SK? I think it makes perfect sense, both flavor-wise and mechanics-wise. He eliminates everyone but his fans, and then he wins.
Also, this is the scummiest post I have read in the last few days....
Vote: swinkee
Yes, if he can give us some more exact numbers, it would be great.
Hmm. That's a good point, but where I was coming from was that it'd be a pretty wacky role to have a SK with an alternate win condition AND the lynch redirection ability, along with his usual night-kill powers. It's a bit of a stretch, although, this is random mafia, and anything is possible.
1. He was at least partially against the other Cowell fans coming out. It benefits the town to know who they are because at least one of them is probably mafia.
2. Even though he reccommends "caution" in giving the mafia free info, he wants Turbo to reveal the numbers for ALL the alternate win conditions; not just the mafia and town. This would make it much harder for us to trap liars in the event that we force a mass alt-WC claim.
3. He votes Swinkee without giving an arguement. Nothing in swinkee's post seems scummy to me.
That sentence made no sense. Of course he could have an alternate WC. Instead of killing everyone, he only kills the people who don't love him.
Until I know the secret info you are hiding, I will still think Kenji is an SK and reccommend he be vigged.
Meh. I'm not totally against it. I'm just advising caution for the reasons I stated. On the other hand, maybe I just don't think it's necessary because I have figured out who they are. So .
I want him to tell us how many scum there are in this game. That's not quite the same thing. But anyway, I don't understand your idea that we can "trap" someone via claiming an alternate win condition. How exactly would this happen. You think someone who doesn't have an alternate win condition is going to claim to have one? Or you think someone who does have an alternate win will pretend not to? The latter is the only one that makes sense, but exactly how would you tell and thus "trap" them if they lied.
That post was scummy. I'll explain it to you later. Maybe.
And Turbo, when I first saw you say that there were 24 win conditions, I thought it meant 24 seperate win conditions.:sweat: Because that would require everyone to have a secondary win condition, which is silly.
Proud worshipper of TFE.
If the wrong number of people claim a win condition (either too many or too few) then we will be able to tell that SOMEONE is lying. We won't know exactly who, but it will still be useful information.
mmmm... condescending...
Let's look at the post, shall we?
He points out an obvious flaw in zoob's logic, and FOSes him for it. He thinks both Fayul and Kenji are scummy, but thinks Kenji is more so. Then he realizes that Kenji can't be lynched today, so he votes Fayul instead.
Makes sense to me.
This is my last post before Sunday/Monday. Have a good weekend!
turbo, the way you've stated your ability is odd. i got confused just like swinkee when you said that there were 24 win conditions. as a note to those who want to try and 'trap' people using the win condition info - if the assumption that there are 4 people with two win conditions, then there is no way to trap people by with the information we have, because we already know that no one besides a member of the cowell group has an alternate win condition.
about kenji, i don't think we should try to lynch him today, and we definately shouldn't vig him tonight. he seems very unlikely to be anything but town. about the cowell group's alternate win condition, i may be misunderstanding, but as kenji stated, it sounds like they win if some other win condition is triggered and all of them are still alive, not that they have to be the only ones left alive. i'd like this cleared up if at all possible, so if either kenji or fayul can clear it up and would be so kind, i'd much appreciate it.
having said all that, i am going to fos: swinkee - something about that post that axelrod has highlighted does stike me as scummy, though i'm not quite sure what
i am also going to fos: jcsuperstar - something about jc is striking me as scummy, though i can't put my finger on it
Axelrod- (Musashi)
Verbal- (Puzzle, StevieT92)
Fayul- (Crippled_Fist, swinkee)
Kenji- (jcsuperstar, Zoobamaphooza)
Puzzle- (RafaelK, Azrael)
swinkee- (Axelrod)
Mafia MVP BM Mafia
Mafia MVP Matrix Mafia
What is this wine I see in front of me? Just because we CAN stop the 4 doesn't mean you can't try to talk us into plans that involve killing none of the 4. This statement of yours is really disingenuous at best.
Not the end of the world, maybe, but what benefit is there for the town in having Kenji determine the lynch at all? Ever? The best case scenario would be Kenji volunteering to auto-lynch the person the town was going to lynch anyway and thus disarming himself. Which I sincerely doubt will ever happen.
Good for you. I'm almost starting to come back from voting for you, just because I am becoming so convinced that you benefit from keeping him alive and are a Cowell fan, but then you could easily be the mafia Cowell fan.
Or maybe it's just nicely convenient for you to have someone else's argument to latch on to. I don't agree with Axelrod's argument. I know my role has 100% no connection to American Idol. We also know there's this soul-removal role and this Jaws of Life thing are around. This is random mafia, not AI mafia. I was amazed enough that there's apparently 3 roles which are all Cowell fans.
Remember, it makes literally no sense if the Cowell group are all town. Them being the sole survivors would just be a case of a town win (4 townies alive, no mafia or SK). And if the group already contains a scum, I don't buy that there's a 5th person outside the group also with a win condition based around eliminating them. How many scum do we need to be centered around this one group? That would seriously warp the entire game to be all about them (since you'd have one scum trying to kill everyone but those people, and one trying to kill them all including outing the scum in the group).
Who knows what ability is likely to be what's in this game? I see what you're saying about jumping to the concluson though. There's no reason to be suspicious of Fayul and Kenji only but not also of the others who haven't come out yet. Indeed, it makes Fayul and Kenji look a bit better that they've been willing to be forward while others in their group... not so much.
As I read it, Dollar was won by the mafia because the town did a really, really stupid double lynch. Interestingly, they had two mason pairs which were each likely to contain a mafia (and which both DID contain a mafia), and they were on the edge of realising that in both cases. Some people did realise that. And yet, if they had to make a double lynch, they didn't make it of either of those pairs. Let's not make the same mistake here, hmm?
I think you can see why I'm increadingly sure you're one of the Cowell fans. Hey, Fayul and Kenji, I figure that at least SOMEONE in this drama is town so I might get a straight answer: is your goal to survive past a certain day together, not to survive to the end of the game? Of course, it's possible that Puzzle alone gains something from this. Hey, perhaps it's because he's the scum of the group!
He has no vote (confirmed). Even for a mafia, that's a drawback to balance with a strong ability. Now, we only have his word that he even has this auto-lynch ability. It's effectively a daykill, and that's not horribly imbalanced, especially with a drawback and if the town have good abilities too (which is plausible). And if he's scum, he might not even have that, he might just be scaring us from lynching him. Considered that? But if you're the scum, you know the truth and that he has no reason to lie about his ability, and that might be why you're ignoring the possibility of him lying.
That's a bad reason why he can't be SK. He could easily have the same win as the others: only the Cowell people alive. That makes a lot of sense for an SK win condition in a large game, a bit less impossible than getting EVERYONE killed. And note that he DID find Fayul even though Fayul came forward with the wrong win condition. What do you mean he wouldn't have found it after Fayul come forward with the wrong condition? You're being way too illogical for anything but a desperation attempt to fog.
-Kenji is so far from confirmed it isn't funny. Even if he blasts someone with the auto-lynch today, he's far from confirmed. And even if he was confirmed, a townie without a vote is USELESS to the town (one of the reasons that makes me so suspicious of Kenji still) and is not requiring of doc protection. The way you keep waving doc protection like a banner is kind of scummy.
-And if you're so concerned about spreading doc protection, why say that YOU intend to confirm Kenji by day 3? If you actually are town, isn't that an open invitation for the mafia to knock you off if you're capable of confirming people? It's very nice for you, though, the way it would take a couple of days to do it and thus keep the town away from you for at least a couple of days while you try to arrange for something else to occupy our arguments. And then you get up and say "Kenji's a confirmed town! Yay!".
I don't believe you'd be trying to pull this stuff if you were town. It's not helpful.
Oh, and Fayul: is your role-name just "Cowell fan", or is it something else and the Cowell fan bit is just part of the description?
fos: rafael because something about your attack on puzzle seems scummy, though by no means is puzzle clear himself.
Now that is just worng...........
unvote Glad that was cleared up. Asking the cowell fans coming forward would be pretty pointless. If someone was mafia they'd just keep it to themself. I'm going to go out on a limb and ask the cowel fans not to come forward. That's my $335.54 <out
[The Family]
My position for now is that Puzzle is scummy- hence my vote. If he turns out to be a Cowell fan it might make me reconsider, since it would explain his adamance that Kenji is not scum and should not be killed or lynched, and that Kenji is somehow worthy of doc protection even though his stated abilities don't benefit the town at all.
Puzzle is acting as if he has inside information. We KNOW that there was no inspections night 1, or I would have long ago assumed he was hinting at cop and backed off a little. There's generally three ways to have inside information without inspection. Have the info in your role, be a mason, be a mafia. Mason appears to be out in this case, so he either has reason in his role to be so adamant about Kenji (Cowell fan, most likely) or he's a mafia and knows that Kenji's not one of his.
Re: CropCircles: IF he's a Cowell fan and not just a scum, then he'd like an excuse as to why he didn't come out. If he's found out it's one thing if he can say "I wanted to come out but the town was against it", but very different if it was him arguing to not come out. That's all reliant on him being one of the Cowell group, though. Otherwise, he's just being plain confusing, first backing one argument and then another.
Why do you think I was so reluctant to claim it?
Right, but what's the sense in trying to confuse the town by not agreeing with other analysts that he's partially confirmed, and then setting up some kind of bogus test that will "clear" him later on in the game? And if you're a townie, how would you have any guarantee that you would live that long? (You probably shouldn't answer that)
*sheepish* That's what I get for skimming through the thread.
Thing is, the town has enough experienced posters in it that a large number of them would realize that he's partially confirmed, so trying to keep it under wraps is kind of pointless. And as he's not a power role, and he's not 100% cleared, I'm not sure he'd be a target for the mafia or SK anyways.
Right, which would imply that after that it might be more acceptable, if he wasn't cleared conclusively by you later on.
Also, you mis-intrepeted my point about your plan for Kenji's ability. I'm not only against Kenji firing today, I'm against him firing any time in the conceivable future. We don't want to give up the information we would gain from a lynch, and we don't want to have a townie randomly killed.
*looks at Puzzle anxiously* You don't still have a case of dominaria mafia syndrome, do you?
Yup. I said that, in fact. My last post was kind of aimed at pointing out that you being a Cowell fan should not be taken as a given and noting how scummy you were being. I currently rank the chance of you being scum of some descritpion as greater than the chance of you being a townie Cowell fan. You just don't seem to have had the town's interests in mind with some of the stuff you've tried to pull.
I did answer that. Please don't do this "he's not paying attention to my answers" thing, it's annoying. I answered that directly in post 175. I even quoted that post of yours when I did it.
To save time for all concerned, I'll quote your first part of 164 here followed by the part of my post 175 which responded to that.
Vote stands on Puzzle. His replies are just delaying tactics, not actually raising anything but attempting to put people off by referring to past posts and claiming people aren't responding and making contradictory claims to get people to run in circles. I fully expect you to say "I didn't see that you'd responded to that", but given that you quoted my post I expect you to have read it enough to know that I have most certainly considered that you're not a Cowell fan and that I've responded to your argument already.
Where before this post did Kenji (or Fayul) use the word "idol?" I don't see it.