Hmmm. I am back at home for half a night tonite (My mom had a dentist appointment, and we are bringing my bro down to the shore tomorrow), so I am going to post.
I re-read the thread, and Unvote, Vote: Puzzle. Losing your soul turns you into a homunclus, who are evil. (See Fullmetal Alchemist. also, this is random speculation/Fanboyism)
Chamber I can see as a townie. The only really way he could be mafia if is someone who was good enough to come up with that plan (Axel, Az, etc.) was also mafia. By plan I mean the blocking him so his lurkiness Isn't questioned.
And though Zoob makes a good point about the post-blocker coming foward, I think they should, because however useless that info is, it can only help us, seeing as a post blocker isn't really high on a mafia target list. I also like to have that out in the open, so we can analyze more clearly.
I re-read the thread, and Unvote, Vote: Puzzle. Losing your soul turns you into a homunclus, who are evil. (See Fullmetal Alchemist. also, this is random speculation/Fanboyism)
I know you're joking, but we should at least consider the possibility that losing his soul has turned Puzzle evil (y'know, more evil than usual...)
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Hmm. On the one hand, an ability preventing someone from posting WOULD seem like a mafia ability (lowering communication). Preventing a townie from voting is VERY strong late in the game, however. I've only seen that sort of ability once, and it was on a townie (Pibbly in Dunwich mafia, although it was publically announced that the ability was his). He used it only once that game, late in the game to shut Dusk the hell up on the day Dusk was going to be lynched anyway.
What's keeping me feeling this might be a mafia job anyway is I don't see why a townie would randomly shut someone up night 1. I don't agree with night 1 viggings but I see why some people do them anyway (bloodthirsty glory-hound gambling sods). I don't see why any townie would do a night 1 silencing.
Fact is, we're not going to lynch chamber. He can't respond, and there's no particular reason to believe he's mafia other than speculation that not being able to talk is a great excuse for a mafia to lurk day 1 and not give anything away.
I am concerned about the soul-loss thing. If not for this being so random, I'd simply say it can't be good so let's lynch Puzzle and see what we learn. But between randomness and the fact it was publically announced, there's no guarantee that anything's wrong with Puzzle.
Not really picking up much of anything to base a suspicion off otherwise. Kenji's vote for a player who can't speak (more silly than scummy, I think), both Zoob and jcsuperstar apparently trying to establish that the post-blocker will be seen as mafia if they come out (an understandable opinion), Stevie encouraging the post-blocker to come out because it's not a power role although that will narrow down the list of people are could be (but not by much, and we might get a better idea of how the game works so we can catch up with the mafia who presumably have access to several role PMs).
If there's anyone who hasn't posted, or who only posted to check in, I suggest they weigh in with an opinion sooner rather than later.
I'm a townie, and I used the blocking ability. I used it on chamber because I didn't want a good town analyst to be blocked. No offence to chamber.
The other side of the ability? I can communicate with him by PM during the day: In fact, we have a quite healthy correspondence already going.
Why would I use it? I have the -alternate- win condition of finding three seperate roles: if we can all PM the mod with the playernames of those roles, we win the game. However, I can -also- win through the town win condition.
Look, I'm not going to stop doing it: I'd like to win the game. If you think that it's too dangerous to stop people from posting, lynch me: I'd much prefer it, and I'm sure the rest of you would as well, if you would like to try to find a mafia to lynch.
By the way, if you want to hear anything from chamber, just ask me to forward it through: I'll get back to you with his answer.
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Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, the wisdom to know the difference, and a ****ing chainsaw.
Why would I use it? I have the -alternate- win condition of finding three seperate roles: if we can all PM the mod with the playernames of those roles, we win the game. However, I can -also- win through the town win condition.
The game is afoot...
Who is "we?"
Will Chamber be able to post tomorrow?
NO ONE ROLECLAIM until we know who "we" is.
Alternate wins seem quite likely in this game, but if it's just YOU that wins you've just put a big LYNCH ME sign on you...
FOS Fayul, obviously. Explain yourself a little better please. [and unFOS carrion pigeons in case anyone took that seriously lol; tho I'm still not sure what to expect from him in this game o_O]
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Quote from Sir Blakely »
turbo...my god. you have reached Uber-Nerd-Dom (TM).
Hmm... interesting development... I can understand letting us know that you blocked chamber's posting activity, and the ability to talk to him while he's blocked, but why let us in on the alternate win condition? Someone else take over, I'm hungry.
The "we" was an assumption: I assume the other roles would have the same win condition. Now that I think about it, however, I'm not as sure.
I let you in on the alternate win condition:
1. to boost my credibility.
2. To cover my ass when chamber came back tomorrow talking about it. Goes directly to 1. I obviously have to tell him about it to get him to say if he has one of those particular roles.
Look, I'll admit that I'm not the most beneficial townie ever, but if you lynch me you're just giving the mafia the numbers edge.
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Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, the wisdom to know the difference, and a ****ing chainsaw.
The other roles as in the roles I'm attempting to find so I can win.
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Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, the wisdom to know the difference, and a ****ing chainsaw.
You're town (so you claim) but your win condition and your method of achieving it interfere with the goals of the town.
If you're telling the truth, I have no problem with you trying to win. One way for you to lessen the negative impact of your "nerfing" is to let people post through you. For instance, does Chamber have anything he'd like to say to the town?
Does anyone else think Fayul should claim her role name as well?
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So by that logic, if everyone role-claims then everyone wins... how convenient... :/
Doesn't sound very believable; if he's telling the truth it's a gay 'game over'; if he's lying, it's a 'game over' and only he (and maybe some others) win... Either way, not really something I'd expect a mod to do, even if it is 'random mafia...' It's a big gamble, but WAY too high of stakes for the town to participate in...mass role claims are very risky, even if power roles are hard to ID in random mafia; and if they cause one person to insta-win...
*keeps FOS pointed firmly at Fayul...*
Goin to bed, someone else take over the grilling so I don't look so bloodthirsty ~_~
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Quote from Sir Blakely »
turbo...my god. you have reached Uber-Nerd-Dom (TM).
Fayul:
-is Chamber one of those people you had to find, or are you still 3 away?
-must you find them by using your ability? Or is it just if you all find out each other's name?
-do you get told the people's name/ability, or do you have to rely on them to tell you (in which case they may be lying)?
-Do you have any connection whatsoever to Bill Gates?
-Do you have any connection whatsoever to Scrooge McDuck?
-Do you have any connection whatsoever to The Human Torch?
-Do you have any connection whatsoever to Mick Jagger?
-Do you have any connection whatsoever to Jared, the Subway guy?
(that last lot is deliberately cryptic. Only one of them, as far as I know, has to do with anything. Bear with me.)
I have my doubts about fayul. Note that she has an **alternate** rather than additional win condition. That is not our win condition, people.
Frankly, I suspect she is the serial killer with an alternate win condition - she has to kill several specific people (I've seen it before) and has been given this extra ability to role block and talk to people to help her find her targets.
Fayul, exactly what is preventing you from listing the roles you have to find? Seems that if that is all you have to do (and all they have to do) in order to win, by stating the roles you will all be able to find each other day one, with no chance one of you gets lynched or night-killed before you do (do you still win if one of the roles is killed?)
Do you just have "role-names" or do you have some idea as to ability also? If you just have role-names, would saying the names be detrimental in any way? I'm not fishing here, just trying to understand how this works. Right now I don't quite see it. Seems too easy.
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I suggest that having 8 players with these mason-esque alternate win conditions is highly unlikely. I suggest that fayul or kenji or both are mafia or serial killers.
I seriously think we should lynch one of them today on the grounds that frankly they may win tonight (if fayul's the accurate pm reader).
My suspicion is that the other people involved know nothing of Fayul's (and now Kenji's) alternate win condition and don't gain anything by helping them out. However, don't make it obvious that you're not one of their people either, since that narrows down their choices.
I echo that people should not volunteer information to Fayul and Kenji until we work out what the heck is going on here. Try to fish without giving away your role name to them.
I read Dollar mafia here recently, so I'm certainly aware of games in which townies can have additional win conditions. Attempts to pursue a win instead of all-mafia-dead, a win that the rest of the town won't share, are NOT additional. They are a threat to the town, just like an SK.
That neither of them was under pressure to make the claim was interesting. It suggests that both believe they have nothing to hide and really are helpful townies (that, or that this is the best way for them personally to win the game). Not that it's unheard of for scum to make brazen day 1 claims and be believed because after all, why would a scum claim something scummy-sounding on day 1 without any pressure?
Round in circles we go. Once our two extra-win-condition people read their PMs again and answer everyone's questions, we'll see where we go from there.
Unvote, Vote Verbal
Finally, something concrete to go on. I like this bandwagon, as I tend to think Verbal and Kenji are cleared. (Again the only way they could be scum is with someone who can come up with great plans for the mafia) Also, I'm leaving today
Hopefully this isn't saying too much: my role knows a bit about the NUMBER of win conditions (not what they are or who has them; there's [random numbers for example purposes] 2, 4, 6, 27, 1 for example). There were some intriging numbers which I won't disclose for fear of mafia-role-claiming, but I will say that there were a total of 24 win conditions; so 4 people with this alternate win is quite plausible; someone could have 3 or something, but anyway just wanted to say how many 'double agents' there probably were.
If a majority want the list revealed I will do so, since the Town and Mafia and SK numbers seem rather obvious and could be helpful to the town, but I don't want to give mafia claim-bait unless the rest of the town thinks it's a good idea.
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turbo...my god. you have reached Uber-Nerd-Dom (TM).
1. This ability is obviously very powerful (even more than a role-blocker) and the vote and defense denying capacity certainly means that it's not a mafioso's and unlikely to be a SK's.
Very powerful for the mafia or SK, but not too useful for the town. Since the town thrives on discussion, shutting someone up is not usually an advantage.
Quote from Puzzle »
2. Coming forward so early with that kind of role was not the right move imo. Now, if the cop gets out, the doc will be torn apart.
I don't see Fayul as a candidate for doc protection. I don't much care if she gets nightkilled. (sorry)
Quote from Puzzle »
3. The alternate win condition makes no sense if the persons Fayul wants to find have the same blunt purpose without restrictions : all they would have to do is wild claim off the bat and we would end up with a day 1 Game Over.
This is a good point that others need to take note of. Fayul may be telling the truth about her own condition, but it's highly unlikely that the roles she is looking for will also win if she identifies them.
In particular, it seems clear that Kenji and Fayul are not part of the same group. Kenji is part of a mason-ish group and Fayul is not, IMO.
Quote from Kenji »
After re-reading my role pm... I think Fayul is misunderstanding something or is perhaps of another set of people. If I and the 3 other people survive to the end game then we win but the town does not. My pm says nothing about pm-ing the mod with the names... Which means we could have 2 seperate groups of townie's with extra win conditions.
Fos: Kenji. Who misreads their own role PM?
I think Fayul should claim her role name to help us decide whether she is telling the truth. Will anyone join me on this request?
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I'm puzzled as to why Puzzle is up in arms about who the doc protects. I don't see why the mafia would nightkill either of Fayul or Kenji and I don't see why we want a doc to protect either of them. Arguably the doc should protect Turbo (if he doesn't spill the beans) or just go out among everyone else and hope to protect the person the mafia is trying to kill. The worst thing about all these revelations is it's helping the mafia narrow down who the actually dangerous people might be. Why would they kill fayul or kenji or even turbo when they know that none of these people are a cop or a doc?
Turbo suddenly speaking up, I don't know whether that's unfortunate or not. In case of death or silencing happening, you might want to give us that information before the opportunity is lost. I don't really see much use in keeping it back now that the mafia know someone has that data, and so can't be taken by surprise. At the least, the numbers you believe to be the number of townies/mafia should be given- alternate win conditions are the only stuff we can ambush with, so they're the only stuff worth holding back (although if you die without spilling those, we lose the ability to try and break things with a mass claim later). HOWEVER- as Puzzle says, whatever you end up doing don't spill anything until after Fayul has talked a bit more. And don't give away your role name.
Now that Kenji has come out with it, I'll say it. I lied: my other win isn't to just PM them with the names of the people, it's to survive solely with them. As such, I get strong feelings that at least one of them is mafia. Honestly, I lied so I wouldn't get lynched: another win condition doesn't look all that helpful when it involves other people DYING, but, now that Kenji's spilled the beans *shakes fist*, it's probably best that I tell you.
Chamber refuses to tell me his rolename, as such, he's likely not one of the ones I'm looking for. He gives a bit of a scummy vibe, but not nearly enough to go for a lynch on.
Anything else you'd like to know?
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Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, the wisdom to know the difference, and a ****ing chainsaw.
My role is a fan, yes. Personally, I think he's a twit.
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Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, the wisdom to know the difference, and a ****ing chainsaw.
My PM implied that he was a member of the Mafia. Not enough to act on, but a role where only townies have to survive to win is redundant if we also have the town win condition, and it makes sense that the "leader" of the bunch would be scum.
I'm willing to give up my win condition if we can nail a scum today: That'd put us far enough ahead as a town.
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Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, the wisdom to know the difference, and a ****ing chainsaw.
And Turbo has a list of the number of alternate win conditions? But not what they actually are? And there are 24 of them? How do you tell how many town/mafia/SK there are by a list of the number of alternate wins? And how does that give the mafia claim-bait? Maybe I'm missing something.
Regardless, if you know the number of town/mafia/SK then I'd definitely say tell us that much. The mafia already know how many of them there are, so the only thing they would learn would be if a SK existed, and you basically already said that anyway.
Kenji is "somebody" and Fayul is a "fan." My sense, like Fayul's, is that the "somebody" is anti-town. Possibly mafia, Possibly a SK. Actually makes more sense for the role to be a SK, who just doesn't have to kill everyone. He has to kill everyone except his fans, in which case they all win together.
I'd probably be willing to vote that way myself at this point, so Kenji, if you have a solid claim, might want to spill it.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
@ Fayul : your PM implied your idol was a member of the Mafia ? Give us some more info than that, please.
It didn't necesarily "imply" it, but it's a pretty good assumption. We're sure that -one- of them has to not be town, otherwise it would be redundant to give me that and the town win condition.
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Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, the wisdom to know the difference, and a ****ing chainsaw.
So Fayul can post-block anyone and PM with them instead. She is a fan of ______(who is a twit) and she is looking for other fans of _______. If she, ______, and all the other fans of _______ are the only survivors in the game, they win.
Kenji is ______, and has the same alternate win condition.
Fayul is correct in thinking that not all of this group is town. So it's a strong possibility that ______ himself is mafia. However, it's not certain.
What is certain is that this win condition is anti-town. So it might be wise for the town to eliminate the possibility of this win condition by killing one of them. Of course, we'd much rather kill the one of them that is mafia.
If we believe Puzzle that post-blocking is too strong of an ability for a scum to have, then that clears Fayul. (though I suppose she could still be an SK.)
I think Kenji looks like the best target at the moment. Vote: Kenji
EWP: Replace ________ with Simon Cowell.
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Kenji, I was looking for something more than just your name. You realize it makes no sense for you to have an "alternate" win condition of being alive with only your fans at the end if there is no scum in that group. Otherwise it's redundant. And frankly, Simon Cowell is a good candidate for being the scum.
I assume you have some other ability?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I don't like the idea of Kenji being able to change our lynches. Therefore, today we should pick a lynch target who isn't Kenji. (You know, someone who we all think is scummy.) We can use FOSes like votes against this person.
Once we've decided who we want to lynch, we all vote Kenji and get him to promise to change the lynch to our desired target.
If Kenji is town, he'll do as we ask. If he lynches someone else instead, then we'll know he's scum and we'll lynch him the next day. But either way, he will lose his lynch-changing ability for the rest of the game.
Make sense?
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That ability would not be on a mafia. It could, however, go on a SK. (or, in fairness, I suppose it could go on a townie, which would suggest one of the "fans" is a mafia and not Simon himself).
We could ask for a Cop investigation of Kenji, but the Cop would have to come out to confirm him, so that's a bad idea.
@JC: If we think Kenji is Town, then we would want him to keep his ability intact. It's more useful later. Getting him to agree to lynch who we pick doesn't confirm him one way or the other. It just throws the ability away (which may be what happens if we pick Kenji today anyway.) Then we would have to lynch him again tomorrow (unless he got vig-killed tonight), which would be a huge waste of time and abilities if he's town.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
If I thought you were definitely town, I wouldn't have suggested the idea. But I still think there's a possibility that you're mafia, and if so, your ability is really, really dangerous. I'd feel safer if you didn't have it.
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But there is no way I am mafia with this ability, just think how powerful it is for the mafia. If the mafia had this ability it would effectivly be a day time kill that robs the town of that days lynch... So the mafia get to cancel the towns lynch, and instead lynch whoever they want, then kill whoever they want at night... in the end game this ability is WAY too powerful for the mafia to have. Therefore I can not be mafia.
Hmmm. Perhaps you are right.
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@JC: If we think Kenji is Town, then we would want him to keep his ability intact. It's more useful later.
No it's not. It's a completely worthless ability to anyone but Kenji for saving his own skin. There is no way that it's useful: if we've all decided on a lynch, then that's probably our best target: Kenji deflecting it for no reason is equivalent to a day-1 vigging, at best.
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Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, the wisdom to know the difference, and a ****ing chainsaw.
No it's not. It's a completely worthless ability to anyone but Kenji for saving his own skin. There is no way that it's useful: if we've all decided on a lynch, then that's probably our best target: Kenji deflecting it for no reason is equivalent to a day-1 vigging, at best.
Although that was my first thought as well, it's not quite accurate. Kenji can pick the lynch one day. This completely circumvents the normal order of events, and while, normally, we do not want the order circumvented, there are times when that might be a good thing.
It means the mafia aren't picking the lynch for one thing (this assumes he's not mafia, which I believe), although they have the same opportunity to influence Kenji as anyone else. By the same token, he could save another who he believed was innocent. Yes, the utility of this depends heavily on his own judgment (which may be suspect) but, on the other hand, you might say his opinion is just as valid as anyone else's.
Also, who knows what other abilities are floating around? It might be that the ability to call the lynch could come in very useful, or could prevent the mafia from choosing the lynch another time.
None of this means that Kenji can't still be a SK, however, which is my biggest concern at this point.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Wow, a lot's been going on. I'm not really sure about jcsuperstar's idea. It seems reasonable, but I think it'd be better to keep that ability around in case we need it later. On the other hand, I wouldn't be at all suprised if Kenji was a SK. But if he is, how do we deal with him?
As for Fayul, I don't think she should use her ability anymore. Secrets don't help the town.
Wow, a lot's been going on. I'm not really sure about jcsuperstar's idea. It seems reasonable, but I think it'd be better to keep that ability around in case we need it later. On the other hand, I wouldn't be at all suprised if Kenji was a SK. But if he is, how do we deal with him?
If we think he's an SK, then we should use my idea and get rid of his ability. If we think he's town, we should leave him alone.
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What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Sadly I can't directly quote PM'S but chanber had the following to say:
[chamber]
He was suspicious me at first, but then less so when Kenji came out. He thinks Kenji is probably an SK, and a vigging may be in order. He would vote for Kenji now if he could.[/chamber]
That's more or less the gist of it.
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Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, the wisdom to know the difference, and a ****ing chainsaw.
Heh, last couple pages were much more interesting than my classes today...
Yeah, I probably should have waited until we had more role-claims before i confirmed the 4 doubles... So lemme know when you want me to give more info, I don't want to waste the doc on me if he thinks he knows who the cop is or something. (speaking of which, if we could make sure Kenji's town, it would be great if the cop snuck some info to him somehow; Fayul's mason chain would probably be too risky tho [hmm, bob was blocked, then kenji...bob's a cop!]).
Someone needs to sig-quote Puzzle asking to be voted for lol. Why are you asking him to anyway, since we saw it didn't count on Chamber?
And no one confirmed night0 was no-kill; was it, and if so, where did you read that? Because if it wasn't, that's another clue for Kenji (or SOMEONE of the foursome) being SK, since he probably wouldn't want to bump off anyone until he learned who his Simon cult was, in order to leave both conditions open.
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Quote from Sir Blakely »
turbo...my god. you have reached Uber-Nerd-Dom (TM).
It is now Night 0. If you haven't confirmed, please do so. If you have a night ability other than a kill or an investigation that you wish to use, please make your choice and send it in.
I'll just go ahead and confirm this for you now, since it's public information.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
I read that, but like I said on like page 6, I had already sent in my night ability and assumed that the Mafia/SK had too, so you were just reminding the Doc/Cop/other non-kill-roles to do so.
So it was no-kill, I just read too much into it. kk.
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Quote from Sir Blakely »
turbo...my god. you have reached Uber-Nerd-Dom (TM).
Yeah, I probably should have waited until we had more role-claims before i confirmed the 4 doubles... So lemme know when you want me to give more info, I don't want to waste the doc on me if he thinks he knows who the cop is or something.
I thought you said there were 24 alternate win conditions in this game? What 4 "doubles" are you talking about here?
You said before you knew how many mafia/SK were in this game. How many?
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Well, things have certainly gotten interesting fairly quickly... obviously kenji isn't a mafia member with that ability. he could be a sk though...
I don't know. i am confused by turbo's statements...
K I'll try to clear up some confusion...then I'll make sure I get more sleep before posting from now on lol. Mountain Dew...
The 'no kill' confusion was from the time line:
1. I get role PM
2. I send in night decisions
---Several days pass---
3. c_p asks for 'non kill/investigate' actions
I assumed that the mafia/cop had pm'd him, and he was just waiting on a few. Apparently I'm the only one who found his wording vague...if it were a no-kill night I figured he'd say "send night actions, remember this is a no-kill night."
As for my ability info I shared, I got a list in the form of [1, 33, 2, 17, 99, -4, 2] of the number of win conditions; so there is one person with 'win condition A', 33 with B, 2 with C etc. Presumedly the highest would be town and mafia would be ~ 20-25%, with one or two SK's, etc (not giving away the exact numbers yet). Since there were a total of 24 win conditions, with 20 players, that meant that 4 people had 2 ways to win (or 2 people had 3, or one had 5, etc). Since 2 people had said they had a foursome of people with 2 conditions, I confirmed it with my info, not thinking that I should have waited for some mafia to say "oh yeah I have something like that too..." and then gank their lie...
And that's why c_p wanted 17 veterans :/ I hadn't seen anyone with an ability like mine before and I didn't think about all of the possible uses.
Meh, hope that's cleared up.
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turbo...my god. you have reached Uber-Nerd-Dom (TM).
Hmph. Fayul, I don't know why you lied first up. Your original claim was much more threatening. Now, as Puzzle says, you're an asset to the town (if telling the truth). I certainly don't blame chambers for being unwilling to tell you his role name, though.
One thing's for sure- that win condition makes no sense if all of the Cowell group are townie. Frankly, I now want to know who the other two are. Not what their special abilities are, just who the two other fans of Cowell are.
Re: Kenji
-Lack of vote apparently confirmed. This is a powerful drawback, especially late game, but for both a townie and a mafia so it doesn't prove anything. If the mafia win condition is the usual "equal the town in number" thing, it's less of a drawback for the mafia than might be expected since they can win even if they don't technically have 50% of the votes, whereas it's a VERY big drawback for the town since if Kenji is one of the last townies the mafia can force a win when they still have less than 50% of the people.
-If we believe Kenji is a townie and never try to lynch him, he is strictly worse than a vanilla townie. He has no abilities to interfere with the mafia, and he's deadweight in the endgame. The mafia will never kill him either, since he's 100% no threat to them.
-If Kenji is mafia/SK AND telling the truth about his ability to move lynches, then he's got a bit of a drawback but has the ability to ensure he takes one townie with him which is a very strong balance (especially for an SK, since in the pinch it takes two days to kill him if there's no vig left, and on the first day he effectively gets an extra kill).
-If Kenji is mafia/SK, though, he's quite possibly lying about the second part of his ability to try and discourage a lynch, and in fact has some other strong ability (like serial-killing?).
Frankly, my BS detector is going off here. If Kenji is town, he's not very useful at all since he has no vote so there's minimal downside (plus we'll at least have narrowed down who out of the Cowell group is scum/SK). If he's SK or mafia, he's incredibly dangerous. And either way, getting Kenji apparently removes an alternate win condition from the game. The risk/reward is incredibly good for us given that it's a day 1 lynch and those usually royally suck. My only concern is he might be telling the truth on the lynch ability and so we should hope we have a vig and appeal for a nightkill.
I grudingly agree as well: I'm not a huge fan of losing a win condition, but I 'll just go along as a townie if you'd like.
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Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, the wisdom to know the difference, and a ****ing chainsaw.
And thus my point is proven. Kenji and Fayul have roleclaimed, and now all hell has broken loose. Additionally, we have no idea if we can trust them.
I'm more inclined to trust Fayul at the moment. However, both of them have basically just revealed themselves to be pseudo-enemies as their alternate win conditions involve most of the town dying.
The way I see it, Kenji's claimed ability offers no help to the town, and is really only useful to himself. However, I'm not totally convinced that Kenji actually has this ability. Additionally, I think that there is no possible way that an ability this powerful could be given to a mafia. Therefore I think that we should lynch Kenji. He will either die, and be proven as a liar and a mafia, or he will use his ability (which, as I said before, is of no use to us) and be proven innocent.
Vote: Kenji
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I re-read the thread, and Unvote, Vote: Puzzle. Losing your soul turns you into a homunclus, who are evil. (See Fullmetal Alchemist. also, this is random speculation/Fanboyism)
Chamber I can see as a townie. The only really way he could be mafia if is someone who was good enough to come up with that plan (Axel, Az, etc.) was also mafia. By plan I mean the blocking him so his lurkiness Isn't questioned.
And though Zoob makes a good point about the post-blocker coming foward, I think they should, because however useless that info is, it can only help us, seeing as a post blocker isn't really high on a mafia target list. I also like to have that out in the open, so we can analyze more clearly.
I know you're joking, but we should at least consider the possibility that losing his soul has turned Puzzle evil (y'know, more evil than usual...)
What's keeping me feeling this might be a mafia job anyway is I don't see why a townie would randomly shut someone up night 1. I don't agree with night 1 viggings but I see why some people do them anyway (bloodthirsty glory-hound gambling sods). I don't see why any townie would do a night 1 silencing.
Fact is, we're not going to lynch chamber. He can't respond, and there's no particular reason to believe he's mafia other than speculation that not being able to talk is a great excuse for a mafia to lurk day 1 and not give anything away.
I am concerned about the soul-loss thing. If not for this being so random, I'd simply say it can't be good so let's lynch Puzzle and see what we learn. But between randomness and the fact it was publically announced, there's no guarantee that anything's wrong with Puzzle.
Not really picking up much of anything to base a suspicion off otherwise. Kenji's vote for a player who can't speak (more silly than scummy, I think), both Zoob and jcsuperstar apparently trying to establish that the post-blocker will be seen as mafia if they come out (an understandable opinion), Stevie encouraging the post-blocker to come out because it's not a power role although that will narrow down the list of people are could be (but not by much, and we might get a better idea of how the game works so we can catch up with the mafia who presumably have access to several role PMs).
If there's anyone who hasn't posted, or who only posted to check in, I suggest they weigh in with an opinion sooner rather than later.
I'm a townie, and I used the blocking ability. I used it on chamber because I didn't want a good town analyst to be blocked. No offence to chamber.
The other side of the ability? I can communicate with him by PM during the day: In fact, we have a quite healthy correspondence already going.
Why would I use it? I have the -alternate- win condition of finding three seperate roles: if we can all PM the mod with the playernames of those roles, we win the game. However, I can -also- win through the town win condition.
Look, I'm not going to stop doing it: I'd like to win the game. If you think that it's too dangerous to stop people from posting, lynch me: I'd much prefer it, and I'm sure the rest of you would as well, if you would like to try to find a mafia to lynch.
By the way, if you want to hear anything from chamber, just ask me to forward it through: I'll get back to you with his answer.
The game is afoot...
Who is "we?"
Will Chamber be able to post tomorrow?
NO ONE ROLECLAIM until we know who "we" is.
Alternate wins seem quite likely in this game, but if it's just YOU that wins you've just put a big LYNCH ME sign on you...
FOS Fayul, obviously. Explain yourself a little better please. [and unFOS carrion pigeons in case anyone took that seriously lol; tho I'm still not sure what to expect from him in this game o_O]
I let you in on the alternate win condition:
1. to boost my credibility.
2. To cover my ass when chamber came back tomorrow talking about it. Goes directly to 1. I obviously have to tell him about it to get him to say if he has one of those particular roles.
Look, I'll admit that I'm not the most beneficial townie ever, but if you lynch me you're just giving the mafia the numbers edge.
Other roles as in the ones you roleblock? or the ones you submit? or other people with your same ability but didn't use it? or...cish spy? <_<
You're town (so you claim) but your win condition and your method of achieving it interfere with the goals of the town.
If you're telling the truth, I have no problem with you trying to win. One way for you to lessen the negative impact of your "nerfing" is to let people post through you. For instance, does Chamber have anything he'd like to say to the town?
Does anyone else think Fayul should claim her role name as well?
Doesn't sound very believable; if he's telling the truth it's a gay 'game over'; if he's lying, it's a 'game over' and only he (and maybe some others) win... Either way, not really something I'd expect a mod to do, even if it is 'random mafia...' It's a big gamble, but WAY too high of stakes for the town to participate in...mass role claims are very risky, even if power roles are hard to ID in random mafia; and if they cause one person to insta-win...
*keeps FOS pointed firmly at Fayul...*
Goin to bed, someone else take over the grilling so I don't look so bloodthirsty ~_~
-is Chamber one of those people you had to find, or are you still 3 away?
-must you find them by using your ability? Or is it just if you all find out each other's name?
-do you get told the people's name/ability, or do you have to rely on them to tell you (in which case they may be lying)?
-Do you have any connection whatsoever to Bill Gates?
-Do you have any connection whatsoever to Scrooge McDuck?
-Do you have any connection whatsoever to The Human Torch?
-Do you have any connection whatsoever to Mick Jagger?
-Do you have any connection whatsoever to Jared, the Subway guy?
(that last lot is deliberately cryptic. Only one of them, as far as I know, has to do with anything. Bear with me.)
Frankly, I suspect she is the serial killer with an alternate win condition - she has to kill several specific people (I've seen it before) and has been given this extra ability to role block and talk to people to help her find her targets.
Do you just have "role-names" or do you have some idea as to ability also? If you just have role-names, would saying the names be detrimental in any way? I'm not fishing here, just trying to understand how this works. Right now I don't quite see it. Seems too easy.
I suggest that having 8 players with these mason-esque alternate win conditions is highly unlikely. I suggest that fayul or kenji or both are mafia or serial killers.
I seriously think we should lynch one of them today on the grounds that frankly they may win tonight (if fayul's the accurate pm reader).
I echo that people should not volunteer information to Fayul and Kenji until we work out what the heck is going on here. Try to fish without giving away your role name to them.
I read Dollar mafia here recently, so I'm certainly aware of games in which townies can have additional win conditions. Attempts to pursue a win instead of all-mafia-dead, a win that the rest of the town won't share, are NOT additional. They are a threat to the town, just like an SK.
That neither of them was under pressure to make the claim was interesting. It suggests that both believe they have nothing to hide and really are helpful townies (that, or that this is the best way for them personally to win the game). Not that it's unheard of for scum to make brazen day 1 claims and be believed because after all, why would a scum claim something scummy-sounding on day 1 without any pressure?
Round in circles we go. Once our two extra-win-condition people read their PMs again and answer everyone's questions, we'll see where we go from there.
Finally, something concrete to go on. I like this bandwagon, as I tend to think Verbal and Kenji are cleared. (Again the only way they could be scum is with someone who can come up with great plans for the mafia) Also, I'm leaving today
If a majority want the list revealed I will do so, since the Town and Mafia and SK numbers seem rather obvious and could be helpful to the town, but I don't want to give mafia claim-bait unless the rest of the town thinks it's a good idea.
Very powerful for the mafia or SK, but not too useful for the town. Since the town thrives on discussion, shutting someone up is not usually an advantage.
I don't see Fayul as a candidate for doc protection. I don't much care if she gets nightkilled. (sorry)
This is a good point that others need to take note of. Fayul may be telling the truth about her own condition, but it's highly unlikely that the roles she is looking for will also win if she identifies them.
In particular, it seems clear that Kenji and Fayul are not part of the same group. Kenji is part of a mason-ish group and Fayul is not, IMO.
Fos: Kenji. Who misreads their own role PM?
I think Fayul should claim her role name to help us decide whether she is telling the truth. Will anyone join me on this request?
Turbo suddenly speaking up, I don't know whether that's unfortunate or not. In case of death or silencing happening, you might want to give us that information before the opportunity is lost. I don't really see much use in keeping it back now that the mafia know someone has that data, and so can't be taken by surprise. At the least, the numbers you believe to be the number of townies/mafia should be given- alternate win conditions are the only stuff we can ambush with, so they're the only stuff worth holding back (although if you die without spilling those, we lose the ability to try and break things with a mass claim later). HOWEVER- as Puzzle says, whatever you end up doing don't spill anything until after Fayul has talked a bit more. And don't give away your role name.
Chamber refuses to tell me his rolename, as such, he's likely not one of the ones I'm looking for. He gives a bit of a scummy vibe, but not nearly enough to go for a lynch on.
Anything else you'd like to know?
My PM implied that he was a member of the Mafia. Not enough to act on, but a role where only townies have to survive to win is redundant if we also have the town win condition, and it makes sense that the "leader" of the bunch would be scum.
I'm willing to give up my win condition if we can nail a scum today: That'd put us far enough ahead as a town.
And Turbo has a list of the number of alternate win conditions? But not what they actually are? And there are 24 of them? How do you tell how many town/mafia/SK there are by a list of the number of alternate wins? And how does that give the mafia claim-bait? Maybe I'm missing something.
Regardless, if you know the number of town/mafia/SK then I'd definitely say tell us that much. The mafia already know how many of them there are, so the only thing they would learn would be if a SK existed, and you basically already said that anyway.
Kenji is "somebody" and Fayul is a "fan." My sense, like Fayul's, is that the "somebody" is anti-town. Possibly mafia, Possibly a SK. Actually makes more sense for the role to be a SK, who just doesn't have to kill everyone. He has to kill everyone except his fans, in which case they all win together.
I'd probably be willing to vote that way myself at this point, so Kenji, if you have a solid claim, might want to spill it.
It didn't necesarily "imply" it, but it's a pretty good assumption. We're sure that -one- of them has to not be town, otherwise it would be redundant to give me that and the town win condition.
Kenji is ______, and has the same alternate win condition.
Fayul is correct in thinking that not all of this group is town. So it's a strong possibility that ______ himself is mafia. However, it's not certain.
What is certain is that this win condition is anti-town. So it might be wise for the town to eliminate the possibility of this win condition by killing one of them. Of course, we'd much rather kill the one of them that is mafia.
If we believe Puzzle that post-blocking is too strong of an ability for a scum to have, then that clears Fayul. (though I suppose she could still be an SK.)
I think Kenji looks like the best target at the moment. Vote: Kenji
EWP: Replace ________ with Simon Cowell.
I assume you have some other ability?
My question to everyone else: Is this ability too powerful for a mafia to have? If so, Kenji is cleared.
But if Kenji is scum, what could we do about it?
I don't like the idea of Kenji being able to change our lynches. Therefore, today we should pick a lynch target who isn't Kenji. (You know, someone who we all think is scummy.) We can use FOSes like votes against this person.
Once we've decided who we want to lynch, we all vote Kenji and get him to promise to change the lynch to our desired target.
If Kenji is town, he'll do as we ask. If he lynches someone else instead, then we'll know he's scum and we'll lynch him the next day. But either way, he will lose his lynch-changing ability for the rest of the game.
Make sense?
We could ask for a Cop investigation of Kenji, but the Cop would have to come out to confirm him, so that's a bad idea.
@JC: If we think Kenji is Town, then we would want him to keep his ability intact. It's more useful later. Getting him to agree to lynch who we pick doesn't confirm him one way or the other. It just throws the ability away (which may be what happens if we pick Kenji today anyway.) Then we would have to lynch him again tomorrow (unless he got vig-killed tonight), which would be a huge waste of time and abilities if he's town.
Hmmm. Perhaps you are right.
No it's not. It's a completely worthless ability to anyone but Kenji for saving his own skin. There is no way that it's useful: if we've all decided on a lynch, then that's probably our best target: Kenji deflecting it for no reason is equivalent to a day-1 vigging, at best.
Although that was my first thought as well, it's not quite accurate. Kenji can pick the lynch one day. This completely circumvents the normal order of events, and while, normally, we do not want the order circumvented, there are times when that might be a good thing.
It means the mafia aren't picking the lynch for one thing (this assumes he's not mafia, which I believe), although they have the same opportunity to influence Kenji as anyone else. By the same token, he could save another who he believed was innocent. Yes, the utility of this depends heavily on his own judgment (which may be suspect) but, on the other hand, you might say his opinion is just as valid as anyone else's.
Also, who knows what other abilities are floating around? It might be that the ability to call the lynch could come in very useful, or could prevent the mafia from choosing the lynch another time.
None of this means that Kenji can't still be a SK, however, which is my biggest concern at this point.
As for Fayul, I don't think she should use her ability anymore. Secrets don't help the town.
And yes, Simon is a twit.
[The Family]
If we think he's an SK, then we should use my idea and get rid of his ability. If we think he's town, we should leave him alone.
Kenji's vote does show up in vote counts. So him voting for Puzzle will not prove anything.
StevieT92- (swinkee)
Axelrod- (Musashi)
Verbal- (Puzzle, StevieT92)
Fayul- (Crippled_Fist)
That was an error in the last vote count. Sorry Kenji, for showing the vote when I shouldn't have. I forgot temporarily the role I had assigned you.
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[chamber]
He was suspicious me at first, but then less so when Kenji came out. He thinks Kenji is probably an SK, and a vigging may be in order. He would vote for Kenji now if he could.[/chamber]
That's more or less the gist of it.
Yeah, I probably should have waited until we had more role-claims before i confirmed the 4 doubles... So lemme know when you want me to give more info, I don't want to waste the doc on me if he thinks he knows who the cop is or something. (speaking of which, if we could make sure Kenji's town, it would be great if the cop snuck some info to him somehow; Fayul's mason chain would probably be too risky tho [hmm, bob was blocked, then kenji...bob's a cop!]).
Someone needs to sig-quote Puzzle asking to be voted for lol. Why are you asking him to anyway, since we saw it didn't count on Chamber?
And no one confirmed night0 was no-kill; was it, and if so, where did you read that? Because if it wasn't, that's another clue for Kenji (or SOMEONE of the foursome) being SK, since he probably wouldn't want to bump off anyone until he learned who his Simon cult was, in order to leave both conditions open.
I'll just go ahead and confirm this for you now, since it's public information.
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So it was no-kill, I just read too much into it. kk.
I thought you said there were 24 alternate win conditions in this game? What 4 "doubles" are you talking about here?
You said before you knew how many mafia/SK were in this game. How many?
I don't know. i am confused by turbo's statements...
The 'no kill' confusion was from the time line:
1. I get role PM
2. I send in night decisions
---Several days pass---
3. c_p asks for 'non kill/investigate' actions
I assumed that the mafia/cop had pm'd him, and he was just waiting on a few. Apparently I'm the only one who found his wording vague...if it were a no-kill night I figured he'd say "send night actions, remember this is a no-kill night."
As for my ability info I shared, I got a list in the form of [1, 33, 2, 17, 99, -4, 2] of the number of win conditions; so there is one person with 'win condition A', 33 with B, 2 with C etc. Presumedly the highest would be town and mafia would be ~ 20-25%, with one or two SK's, etc (not giving away the exact numbers yet). Since there were a total of 24 win conditions, with 20 players, that meant that 4 people had 2 ways to win (or 2 people had 3, or one had 5, etc). Since 2 people had said they had a foursome of people with 2 conditions, I confirmed it with my info, not thinking that I should have waited for some mafia to say "oh yeah I have something like that too..." and then gank their lie...
And that's why c_p wanted 17 veterans :/ I hadn't seen anyone with an ability like mine before and I didn't think about all of the possible uses.
Meh, hope that's cleared up.
One thing's for sure- that win condition makes no sense if all of the Cowell group are townie. Frankly, I now want to know who the other two are. Not what their special abilities are, just who the two other fans of Cowell are.
Re: Kenji
-Lack of vote apparently confirmed. This is a powerful drawback, especially late game, but for both a townie and a mafia so it doesn't prove anything. If the mafia win condition is the usual "equal the town in number" thing, it's less of a drawback for the mafia than might be expected since they can win even if they don't technically have 50% of the votes, whereas it's a VERY big drawback for the town since if Kenji is one of the last townies the mafia can force a win when they still have less than 50% of the people.
-If we believe Kenji is a townie and never try to lynch him, he is strictly worse than a vanilla townie. He has no abilities to interfere with the mafia, and he's deadweight in the endgame. The mafia will never kill him either, since he's 100% no threat to them.
-If Kenji is mafia/SK AND telling the truth about his ability to move lynches, then he's got a bit of a drawback but has the ability to ensure he takes one townie with him which is a very strong balance (especially for an SK, since in the pinch it takes two days to kill him if there's no vig left, and on the first day he effectively gets an extra kill).
-If Kenji is mafia/SK, though, he's quite possibly lying about the second part of his ability to try and discourage a lynch, and in fact has some other strong ability (like serial-killing?).
Frankly, my BS detector is going off here. If Kenji is town, he's not very useful at all since he has no vote so there's minimal downside (plus we'll at least have narrowed down who out of the Cowell group is scum/SK). If he's SK or mafia, he's incredibly dangerous. And either way, getting Kenji apparently removes an alternate win condition from the game. The risk/reward is incredibly good for us given that it's a day 1 lynch and those usually royally suck. My only concern is he might be telling the truth on the lynch ability and so we should hope we have a vig and appeal for a nightkill.
I grudingly agree as well: I'm not a huge fan of losing a win condition, but I 'll just go along as a townie if you'd like.
I'm more inclined to trust Fayul at the moment. However, both of them have basically just revealed themselves to be pseudo-enemies as their alternate win conditions involve most of the town dying.
The way I see it, Kenji's claimed ability offers no help to the town, and is really only useful to himself. However, I'm not totally convinced that Kenji actually has this ability. Additionally, I think that there is no possible way that an ability this powerful could be given to a mafia. Therefore I think that we should lynch Kenji. He will either die, and be proven as a liar and a mafia, or he will use his ability (which, as I said before, is of no use to us) and be proven innocent.
Vote: Kenji