High arcana will be spent as follows
1 Mastery of Shaping (Nice with area effect spells for arcane archers ability)
2 Mastery of Elements (ditto)
3-5 on Spell like ability (This will be used to maximum effect to give this arcane archer an insane number of good area effect spells)
Feats haven't been decided yet, but will be split between
1. Bow mastery
2. Metamagic: quicken, empower, maximize
3. Feats which grant mobility and versatility in archery
4. Spell Penetration
5. The annoying requirements of Archmage
The Arch-Arcane Archer will use up a majority of his spellslots for area effect spells, and will use empower, quicken and maximize to spread these out. The endgame abilities of the Archmage will round these out by adding flexability. I decided against taking the 10th level of Arcane Archer, as Archmage just seemed the better option for the last 5 PCL levels.
..and just so that these merged posts make sense, I will say this...
I have a few questions about epic levels for multiclassed characters.
An epic level character does not increase their spells per day past level 20 - does this mean that they do not gain new spells per day after their class level is 20 or their character level is 20? So, for example, if there is a multiclassed character whose character level is epic, but has class levels below 20 each with spellcasting abilities, if they were to increase either of their classes upon gaining a level, do they get any new spells per day with respect to the new class level? Or would they have to simply resort to improved spell capacity feats?
I notice that the epic material describes a character at level 20 suddenly multiclassing gains any new spells of the new class at level 1, which leads me to believe that characters who multiclassed before would similarly gain new spells. Or is it the case that you have to start multiclassing at level 20 in order to get more (or any) new spells per day?
Similarly, characters don't get new class features after level 20, which raises the same question: character or class level? If you were multiclassed with some class with some non-repeating features that would be obtained at a class level at a certain point, do they gain these new class features when they reach that class level even if their character level is epic?
This might be a dumb question, but the reading is surprisingly glib on this matter.
Alright, it's late and I've had a long week, but I'll try my best to clarify-
In epic level, you do not gain any additional class features assuming you are taking additional levels (and this part is important) in any class in which you already have 20 or more levels. This means a level 24th wizard does not continue to gain spells past his 20th wizard level.
However, if that same 24th level wizard gains a level, and takes a level of sorcerer, he gains spells per day, new spells, and new class features as if he were a first level sorcerer. He does not, however, gain the saves and attack bonus of a first level sorcerer, using the default epic progressions for characters with an ECL over 20 instead.
Now, if you were playing a Paladin 12/Sorcerer 8, and took your 21st level as a Sorcerer, you would gain all spells/SPD/etc as a 9th level sorcerer. Then, on your 22nd level, if you took a level in Paladin, you would gain all class features that a 13th level paladin would normally get.
I hope that clarifies it enough.
Lets say I have two attacks. +7,+2. And I cast polymorph, turning myself into a 5 headed hydra.
Does my full attack, at this point, look like: +7, +2, +2, +2, +2, +2, +2 ?
You make an offhand attack with all natural weapons, which means a -5 penalty. In other words, that attack progression is correct. It would be +7/+2/+2/+2/+2/+2/+2
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[16:23] Alacar Leoricar: maybe if you do it'll make the porn more meaningful
The incantatrix class gives you an ability known as metamagic spell trigger. This lets you spend extra charges from a staff or wand to apply metamagic feats to the item in question. There's also a feat called Master Staff, which allows you to substitute a spell slot rather than use charges from the staff. Then there's Improved Metamagic, which lowers the cost of metamagic feats by 1 (but never less than 1, darn it).
How do these abilities interact? My group is under the impression that if you used your metamagic spell trigger ability, have Master Staff, and Improved Metamagic, you can spend a spell slot equal to whatever it would have cost you to cast the spell as if you has prepared it and cast it yourself.
This sounds a bit broken, though. That's why I asked for additional input.:)
And yes, no incantatrix for you. Or anyone. That class makes puppies cry. Mostly because they are the former Big Bads who have been Baleful Polymorphed into said puppies. By you. Because you're an incantatrix.
Quote from Yukora »
This is Deraxas we're talking about.
Remember, the girl that just killed an aspect of herself before literally consuming her?
Yeah, I don't see her handling a pissing match in any way other than a duel.
Quote from RedDwarfian »
Yes mistress...
Quote from About epic-level D&D »
There are only so many epic, psuedonatural barbarian/blackguard half-dragon akutenshai vampire balor paragons they can throw at you, right?
Quote from Concerning breeding habits of humans in fantasy games »
I suppose it's true. Though the logistics implied in a human/Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon pairing makes me shudder.
...Something tells me that even should all arcane casters in the world unite, that the Grease spell would NOT be sufficient.
The incantatrix class gives you an ability known as metamagic spell trigger. This lets you spend extra charges from a staff or wand to apply metamagic feats to the item in question. There's also a feat called Master Staff, which allows you to substitute a spell slot rather than use charges from the staff. Then there's Improved Metamagic, which lowers the cost of metamagic feats by 1 (but never less than 1, darn it).
How do these abilities interact? My group is under the impression that if you used your metamagic spell trigger ability, have Master Staff, and Improved Metamagic, you can spend a spell slot equal to whatever it would have cost you to cast the spell as if you has prepared it and cast it yourself.
This sounds a bit broken, though. That's why I asked for additional input.:)
I'm not familiar with the class or most of feats in question, but I would personally shoot down that little combo faster than Hulk Flash. However, without access to the source material, I can't really offer any actual rules information to support that claim- but I can pretty safely say I DOUBT that the various feats/abilities are meant to interact that way.
That sort of gouda has the odor of Forgotten Realms all over it. Alacar, care to field a more informed take on this situation?
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[16:23] Alacar Leoricar: maybe if you do it'll make the porn more meaningful
And yes, no incantatrix for you. Or anyone. That class makes puppies cry. Mostly because they are the former Big Bads who have been Baleful Polymorphed into said puppies. By you. Because you're an incantatrix.
Quote from Yukora »
This is Deraxas we're talking about.
Remember, the girl that just killed an aspect of herself before literally consuming her?
Yeah, I don't see her handling a pissing match in any way other than a duel.
Quote from RedDwarfian »
Yes mistress...
Quote from About epic-level D&D »
There are only so many epic, psuedonatural barbarian/blackguard half-dragon akutenshai vampire balor paragons they can throw at you, right?
Quote from Concerning breeding habits of humans in fantasy games »
I suppose it's true. Though the logistics implied in a human/Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon pairing makes me shudder.
...Something tells me that even should all arcane casters in the world unite, that the Grease spell would NOT be sufficient.
Just looking from the rules you listed, that sounds about correct. I don't think it's overly broken though, as it isn't pushing the actual boundries of the spells in question outside of the realm of possibility, it's really just giving you more ammo for your staff while letting you tweek it with metamagic, essentially making you a spontanious caster but with the staffs spells as your spell list.
You will still be limited by uses per day and such, if the staff has that limitation.
Hmm.. I might have to try that with my little dragon mage, sounds fun.
Well, we'll put things in a better persepctive, then: the character in question is total level 46, with the ability to use 13th level spell slots, and Improved metamagic four times (three times the feat, once from a class ability (Cloak of Mysteries).)
Is it really broken at that level? The things we're up against include a 60th level wizard, and archlich, and possibly some nastier things.....
And yes, no incantatrix for you. Or anyone. That class makes puppies cry. Mostly because they are the former Big Bads who have been Baleful Polymorphed into said puppies. By you. Because you're an incantatrix.
Quote from Yukora »
This is Deraxas we're talking about.
Remember, the girl that just killed an aspect of herself before literally consuming her?
Yeah, I don't see her handling a pissing match in any way other than a duel.
Quote from RedDwarfian »
Yes mistress...
Quote from About epic-level D&D »
There are only so many epic, psuedonatural barbarian/blackguard half-dragon akutenshai vampire balor paragons they can throw at you, right?
Quote from Concerning breeding habits of humans in fantasy games »
I suppose it's true. Though the logistics implied in a human/Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon pairing makes me shudder.
...Something tells me that even should all arcane casters in the world unite, that the Grease spell would NOT be sufficient.
Well, we'll put things in a better persepctive, then: the character in question is total level 46, with the ability to use 13th level spell slots, and Improved metamagic four times (three times the feat, once from a class ability (Cloak of Mysteries).)
Is it really broken at that level? The things we're up against include a 60th level wizard, and archlich, and possibly some nastier things.....
Doing a little research, I'm finding that the incantatrix has an awful reputation as being something of a broken class in general. Now, "broken" in D&D is always something of a disputable term, but I've read that a lot of DMs just plain out disallow that class, so it's naturally somewhat suspect.
HOWEVER- In Epic, very little is overpowered merely by nature of being epic. I would say, since you guys are basically throwing planets at each other at that point, what harm could it do?
I know, I come up with all the hard ones
It's sort of hard for me to field that one because I really dislike FR, and I rarely if ever actually make use of metamagic considering my group tends to favor sorcerer over wizard in 9 out of 10 cases- and sorcerers suck at metamagic, so usually it's a wasted feat, anyway.
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[16:23] Alacar Leoricar: maybe if you do it'll make the porn more meaningful
Well, since the errata on Cooperative Metamagic (you can only modify a spell up to a level you can actually cast yourself) it's a lot less broken than it used to be.
And yes, no incantatrix for you. Or anyone. That class makes puppies cry. Mostly because they are the former Big Bads who have been Baleful Polymorphed into said puppies. By you. Because you're an incantatrix.
Quote from Yukora »
This is Deraxas we're talking about.
Remember, the girl that just killed an aspect of herself before literally consuming her?
Yeah, I don't see her handling a pissing match in any way other than a duel.
Quote from RedDwarfian »
Yes mistress...
Quote from About epic-level D&D »
There are only so many epic, psuedonatural barbarian/blackguard half-dragon akutenshai vampire balor paragons they can throw at you, right?
Quote from Concerning breeding habits of humans in fantasy games »
I suppose it's true. Though the logistics implied in a human/Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon pairing makes me shudder.
...Something tells me that even should all arcane casters in the world unite, that the Grease spell would NOT be sufficient.
Well, it's epic. If you want to tie up almost every level you're given in level adjustment, racial hit dice, and whatnot, your choice...then again, a solar has...umm...abilities that seem like they'd compensate.
And yes, no incantatrix for you. Or anyone. That class makes puppies cry. Mostly because they are the former Big Bads who have been Baleful Polymorphed into said puppies. By you. Because you're an incantatrix.
Quote from Yukora »
This is Deraxas we're talking about.
Remember, the girl that just killed an aspect of herself before literally consuming her?
Yeah, I don't see her handling a pissing match in any way other than a duel.
Quote from RedDwarfian »
Yes mistress...
Quote from About epic-level D&D »
There are only so many epic, psuedonatural barbarian/blackguard half-dragon akutenshai vampire balor paragons they can throw at you, right?
Quote from Concerning breeding habits of humans in fantasy games »
I suppose it's true. Though the logistics implied in a human/Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon pairing makes me shudder.
...Something tells me that even should all arcane casters in the world unite, that the Grease spell would NOT be sufficient.
Well, it's epic. If you want to tie up almost every level you're given in level adjustment, racial hit dice, and whatnot, your choice...then again, a solar has...umm...abilities that seem like they'd compensate.
Straight spellcaster for me, thanks.:D
I managed to find a progression using the savage species rules that has the solar take up 30 levels by level adjustment. Much less painful with gestalt, obviously, and the solar does get to cast spells as a 20th level Cleric... which leads me to ask the obvious question: if you take levels of Cleric, does this stack? Because that would be sweet.
But yes, I'm definitely in the spellcaster category as well.
Ok, Yukora, keep the baddies away from me, because if I gestalted, I would do something simple, elegant, and completely deadly: wizard/sorcerer/ultimate magus.
Also, as far as I know, effective spellcasting levels granted by race stack with actual class levels when determining spells per day, caster level, and such. At least they do for rakshasa sorcerers.
And yes, no incantatrix for you. Or anyone. That class makes puppies cry. Mostly because they are the former Big Bads who have been Baleful Polymorphed into said puppies. By you. Because you're an incantatrix.
Quote from Yukora »
This is Deraxas we're talking about.
Remember, the girl that just killed an aspect of herself before literally consuming her?
Yeah, I don't see her handling a pissing match in any way other than a duel.
Quote from RedDwarfian »
Yes mistress...
Quote from About epic-level D&D »
There are only so many epic, psuedonatural barbarian/blackguard half-dragon akutenshai vampire balor paragons they can throw at you, right?
Quote from Concerning breeding habits of humans in fantasy games »
I suppose it's true. Though the logistics implied in a human/Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon pairing makes me shudder.
...Something tells me that even should all arcane casters in the world unite, that the Grease spell would NOT be sufficient.
Ok, Yukora, keep the baddies away from me, because if I gestalted, I would do something simple, elegant, and completely deadly: wizard/sorcerer/ultimate magus.
Also, as far as I know, effective spellcasting levels granted by race stack with actual class levels when determining spells per day, caster level, and such. At least they do for rakshasa sorcerers.
YES.
I'm personally inclined to cleric/wizard combinations, and I sometimes like to throw in a little monk if there's room.
Guys, while I don't mind the conversation, let's try not to clutter up this thread with too much conversation. It's fine to talk about what games you would like to play and use it to announce campaign openings, new campaigns, and expressed interests, but when it comes to things like what sort of classes we prefer, I would rather we just create a thread in the University for that than flood this thread with it. Sorry, not trying to be a wet blanket, just trying to keep the place looking clean and organized for any newcomers.
What are you playing? How do you feel about class X? Book Y? Do you think Lolth is hot?
Guys, while I don't mind the conversation, let's try not to clutter up this thread with too much conversation. It's fine to talk about what games you would like to play and use it to announce campaign openings, new campaigns, and expressed interests, but when it comes to things like what sort of classes we prefer, I would rather we just create a thread in the University for that than flood this thread with it. Sorry, not trying to be a wet blanket, just trying to keep the place looking clean and organized for any newcomers.
I had that inkling in the back of my head.
If everyone still wants to talk about this, why don't you move these posts into a new thread?
I don't like epic, myself. The sense of danger is fairly nonexistent unless you are pissing off the Lady of Pain, and the importance of magic is multiplied tenfold.
My ideal level range is from 9 to 15- powerful enough to handle most threats and bounce back from unfortunate events, but not so powerful you are temp-infing the game.
So, will this be a character build thread, or a general discussion thread?
For now, both, since character builds can be summarized by "General Discussion".
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[16:23] Alacar Leoricar: maybe if you do it'll make the porn more meaningful
I just edited my first post so that it makes a little more sense.
I've never played epic in d20, but in second edition I've had a character as high as 23, and I decided to retire him. I felt as if his story was told, and he was ready to settle down. It was actually a milestone in gaming for me, because i've never had a character to just stop, build a house, get married and end their story. It was so very satisfying.
As I was saying... real men don't care about their Charisma score.
EDIT @ Shaharazad: It just occurred to me I've never played an epic character, either. Just built them. I think it appeals to me because I am a megalomaniac.
Have a favorite character build? Lets hear about it.
I'll get the ball rolling. This is a gestalt concept I thought up.
Arch-Arcane Archer or ArchArch
1 Fighter 1 // Envoker 1
2 Fighter 2 // Envoker 2
3 Fighter 3 // Envoker 3
4 Fighter 4 // Envoker 4
5 Fighter 5 // Envoker 5
6 Fighter 6 // Envoker 6
7 Arcane Archer 1 // Envoker 7
8 Arcane Archer 2 // Envoker 8
9 Arcane Archer 3 // Envoker 9
10 Arcane Archer 4 // Envoker 10
11 Arcane Archer 5 // Envoker 11
12 Arcane Archer 6 // Envoker 12
13 Arcane Archer 7 // Envoker 13
14 Arcane Archer 8 // Envoker 14
15 Arcane Archer 9 // Envoker 15
16 Fighter 7 // Archmage 1
17 Fighter 8 // Archmage 2
18 Fighter 9 // Archmage 3
19 Fighter 10 // Archmage 4
20 Fighter 11 // Archmage 5
High arcana will be spent as follows
1 Mastery of Shaping (Nice with area effect spells for arcane archers ability)
2 Mastery of Elements (ditto)
3-5 on Spell like ability (This will be used to maximum effect to give this arcane archer an insane number of good area effect spells)
Feats haven't been decided yet, but will be split between
1. Bow mastery
2. Metamagic: quicken, empower, maximize
3. Feats which grant mobility and versatility in archery
4. Spell Penetration
5. The annoying requirements of Archmage
The Arch-Arcane Archer will use up a majority of his spellslots for area effect spells, and will use empower, quicken and maximize to spread these out. The endgame abilities of the Archmage will round these out by adding flexability. I decided against taking the 10th level of Arcane Archer, as Archmage just seemed the better option for the last 5 PCL levels.
..and just so that these merged posts make sense, I will say this...
Look a Solar!!
An epic level character does not increase their spells per day past level 20 - does this mean that they do not gain new spells per day after their class level is 20 or their character level is 20? So, for example, if there is a multiclassed character whose character level is epic, but has class levels below 20 each with spellcasting abilities, if they were to increase either of their classes upon gaining a level, do they get any new spells per day with respect to the new class level? Or would they have to simply resort to improved spell capacity feats?
I notice that the epic material describes a character at level 20 suddenly multiclassing gains any new spells of the new class at level 1, which leads me to believe that characters who multiclassed before would similarly gain new spells. Or is it the case that you have to start multiclassing at level 20 in order to get more (or any) new spells per day?
Similarly, characters don't get new class features after level 20, which raises the same question: character or class level? If you were multiclassed with some class with some non-repeating features that would be obtained at a class level at a certain point, do they gain these new class features when they reach that class level even if their character level is epic?
This might be a dumb question, but the reading is surprisingly glib on this matter.
In epic level, you do not gain any additional class features assuming you are taking additional levels (and this part is important) in any class in which you already have 20 or more levels. This means a level 24th wizard does not continue to gain spells past his 20th wizard level.
However, if that same 24th level wizard gains a level, and takes a level of sorcerer, he gains spells per day, new spells, and new class features as if he were a first level sorcerer. He does not, however, gain the saves and attack bonus of a first level sorcerer, using the default epic progressions for characters with an ECL over 20 instead.
Now, if you were playing a Paladin 12/Sorcerer 8, and took your 21st level as a Sorcerer, you would gain all spells/SPD/etc as a 9th level sorcerer. Then, on your 22nd level, if you took a level in Paladin, you would gain all class features that a 13th level paladin would normally get.
I hope that clarifies it enough.
You make an offhand attack with all natural weapons, which means a -5 penalty. In other words, that attack progression is correct. It would be +7/+2/+2/+2/+2/+2/+2
The incantatrix class gives you an ability known as metamagic spell trigger. This lets you spend extra charges from a staff or wand to apply metamagic feats to the item in question. There's also a feat called Master Staff, which allows you to substitute a spell slot rather than use charges from the staff. Then there's Improved Metamagic, which lowers the cost of metamagic feats by 1 (but never less than 1, darn it).
How do these abilities interact? My group is under the impression that if you used your metamagic spell trigger ability, have Master Staff, and Improved Metamagic, you can spend a spell slot equal to whatever it would have cost you to cast the spell as if you has prepared it and cast it yourself.
This sounds a bit broken, though. That's why I asked for additional input.:)
"I am in the arcane, and the arcane is in me."
Official Matron Mother of Clan Planar Chaos
Awesome Avatar and signature by DarkNightCavalier
Deraxas, Dark Maiden of Shimia,, still oddly obsessed with a mindmage.
I'm not familiar with the class or most of feats in question, but I would personally shoot down that little combo faster than Hulk Flash. However, without access to the source material, I can't really offer any actual rules information to support that claim- but I can pretty safely say I DOUBT that the various feats/abilities are meant to interact that way.
That sort of gouda has the odor of Forgotten Realms all over it. Alacar, care to field a more informed take on this situation?
I know, I come up with all the hard ones
"I am in the arcane, and the arcane is in me."
Official Matron Mother of Clan Planar Chaos
Awesome Avatar and signature by DarkNightCavalier
Deraxas, Dark Maiden of Shimia,, still oddly obsessed with a mindmage.
You will still be limited by uses per day and such, if the staff has that limitation.
Hmm.. I might have to try that with my little dragon mage, sounds fun.
Is it really broken at that level? The things we're up against include a 60th level wizard, and archlich, and possibly some nastier things.....
"I am in the arcane, and the arcane is in me."
Official Matron Mother of Clan Planar Chaos
Awesome Avatar and signature by DarkNightCavalier
Deraxas, Dark Maiden of Shimia,, still oddly obsessed with a mindmage.
Doing a little research, I'm finding that the incantatrix has an awful reputation as being something of a broken class in general. Now, "broken" in D&D is always something of a disputable term, but I've read that a lot of DMs just plain out disallow that class, so it's naturally somewhat suspect.
HOWEVER- In Epic, very little is overpowered merely by nature of being epic. I would say, since you guys are basically throwing planets at each other at that point, what harm could it do?
It's sort of hard for me to field that one because I really dislike FR, and I rarely if ever actually make use of metamagic considering my group tends to favor sorcerer over wizard in 9 out of 10 cases- and sorcerers suck at metamagic, so usually it's a wasted feat, anyway.
"I am in the arcane, and the arcane is in me."
Official Matron Mother of Clan Planar Chaos
Awesome Avatar and signature by DarkNightCavalier
Deraxas, Dark Maiden of Shimia,, still oddly obsessed with a mindmage.
Well, it's epic. If you want to tie up almost every level you're given in level adjustment, racial hit dice, and whatnot, your choice...then again, a solar has...umm...abilities that seem like they'd compensate.
Straight spellcaster for me, thanks.:D
"I am in the arcane, and the arcane is in me."
Official Matron Mother of Clan Planar Chaos
Awesome Avatar and signature by DarkNightCavalier
Deraxas, Dark Maiden of Shimia,, still oddly obsessed with a mindmage.
I managed to find a progression using the savage species rules that has the solar take up 30 levels by level adjustment. Much less painful with gestalt, obviously, and the solar does get to cast spells as a 20th level Cleric... which leads me to ask the obvious question: if you take levels of Cleric, does this stack? Because that would be sweet.
But yes, I'm definitely in the spellcaster category as well.
Hehe, couldn't resist.
I am planning to run a FR campaign, but it will be set it the past, and it will not be epic nor gestalt.
Escapism is somehow more fulfilling when you get to be elaborate, fancy, and unrealistically powerful spellcasters.
Also, as far as I know, effective spellcasting levels granted by race stack with actual class levels when determining spells per day, caster level, and such. At least they do for rakshasa sorcerers.
"I am in the arcane, and the arcane is in me."
Official Matron Mother of Clan Planar Chaos
Awesome Avatar and signature by DarkNightCavalier
Deraxas, Dark Maiden of Shimia,, still oddly obsessed with a mindmage.
YES.
I'm personally inclined to cleric/wizard combinations, and I sometimes like to throw in a little monk if there's room.
ANYWAY-
Guys, while I don't mind the conversation, let's try not to clutter up this thread with too much conversation. It's fine to talk about what games you would like to play and use it to announce campaign openings, new campaigns, and expressed interests, but when it comes to things like what sort of classes we prefer, I would rather we just create a thread in the University for that than flood this thread with it. Sorry, not trying to be a wet blanket, just trying to keep the place looking clean and organized for any newcomers.
What are you playing? How do you feel about class X? Book Y? Do you think Lolth is hot?
This is the place to talk about it!
Threads merged due to similar topic matter.
I had that inkling in the back of my head.
If everyone still wants to talk about this, why don't you move these posts into a new thread?
So, will this be a character build thread, or a general discussion thread?
My ideal level range is from 9 to 15- powerful enough to handle most threats and bounce back from unfortunate events, but not so powerful you are temp-infing the game.
For now, both, since character builds can be summarized by "General Discussion".
I've never played epic in d20, but in second edition I've had a character as high as 23, and I decided to retire him. I felt as if his story was told, and he was ready to settle down. It was actually a milestone in gaming for me, because i've never had a character to just stop, build a house, get married and end their story. It was so very satisfying.
As I was saying... real men don't care about their Charisma score.
EDIT @ Shaharazad: It just occurred to me I've never played an epic character, either. Just built them. I think it appeals to me because I am a megalomaniac.