What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Yes. It necessitates that any winning deck should use the same breed of cards, and even then I'm sure a well defended Barren Glory deck would triumph over every form of opposition.
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What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
One of the only decks that can beat it without playing really subpar cards is Black Lotus, Leonin Squire, Leonin Squire, Kami of Ancient Law, Aura of Silence but it still loses to too many of the other decks to be truely viable, plus it gets hit by the same lotus hate that takes out cheese. I feel barren glory should be gone as well.
Some of you may have been in shock since we invaded Canada and Mexico, but fear not, it was for a good cause. Now that we conrol North America, we produce an extra 5 armies a turn.^_^
That deck only beats non-Orim's Chant versions, BTW.
It turns out that Glory did not actually perform especially well this past week. It isn't impossible that it could be okay as a part of the metagame. It just annoys me because it makes 5CB play more like RAF.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
That deck only beats non-Orim's Chant versions, BTW.
It turns out that Glory did not actually perform especially well this past week. It isn't impossible that it could be okay as a part of the metagame. It just annoys me because it makes 5CB play more like RAF.
RAF stands for Ready, Aim, Fire, which is another forum game. In that game, choose one of three options to submit to the moderate (target self, target another player, no target). A player dies if targeted, unless he targets himself. If a player targets himself and no one else does, that player dies.
The analogy is to say that RAF is much closer to rock-paper-scissors than is desired for a metagame.
As for Barren Glory, leave it be. It's had one good showing, when Chimpanzee won with it. Other than that, it's just been a consistent middle-scoring deck.
Many decks can effectively win on the first turn; what's so special about Barren Glory?
Hate that's effective against it is equally effective against the other lotus decks in the meta and note that Halinn's Good Will Hunting deck beat jcsuperstar's Coercion-Glory in total points. No one complains about that deck, and I'd argue that it's actually the more powerful because on the draw, it has no problems with targeted removal, which is always prevalent. Barren Glory is the new Rakdos-Pry.
For all of the above reasons, the ban gets a "no" vote from me.
I vote no - it shouldn't be banned. Banning a card is always the last resort - let the metagame take care of hating it away. Creative metagaming is the answer. Now, I know that in past weeks BG has been brutal, but the essence of Card Blind is the metagame.
If BG dominated both on the draw and on the play, then yes it should be banned. But most decks worth their snuff should be able to win when they go first.
There are definitely solid ways to beat this stupid thing when it goes first - (hint: look at the past decks that have been played for inspiration as to how to do it, the answers are already practically there.) There are at least two very solid decks I have in mind that go 6-0 vs any Cheese variant, without being narrow in the least.
CP, tell me if this is the wrong place, but I think some of the cards currently on the banned list deserve reevaluating.
As a preface, I wasn't playing during 5CB's original run, so feel free to tell me how stupid I am for even bringing up some of these cards. The cards I'd like to look at are Unmask, Meddling Mage and Mycosynth Lattice.
Unmask is the card I least understand. Thoughtseize does the same thing, replacing the cost of a card with the cost of B, which I would think is actually better.
Meddling Mage is like a pumped-up Mesmeric Fiend. Compared to a card that sees very little play, it gets +1/+1 and has the possiblity of stopping multiple Lotuses on the play. It also costs UW, which isn't the easiest of mana costs to afford.
I know there was a good deck with Myscosynth Lattice in it. What was that deck, and would it warp the metagame if that deck were legal?
Unmask was banned because the two card utility of Unmask+Sickening Shoal is extremely hard to beat was quite dominant.
Meddling Mage: I don't remember why it's banned. Could be unbannable, since it is very similar to Mesmeric Fiend.
Mycosynth Lattice was ridiculous with Lotus, Channel, Titania's Song. It locks out all lands and 0 cost artifacts while creating a 6/6 and a 4/4, so provided no Foils it is nearly unbeatable when it's on the play, and had a solid win percentage going second as well.
I am all for banning Barren Glory. Even with a field heavily hating it I scored 48 (-1), because my build really requires Chain of Vapor, Demistify, or Abolish to lose. Anything that can walk into a field well prepared for it and largely metagaming against it and still get 4th deserves a ban.
Meddling Mage was one of the three cards originally banned in the format; there has never been a test to see if it really warped the format.
It is basically better than Mesmeric Fiend in every way except mana cost, and Mesmeric Fiend is good, even if it hasn't seen much recent play. The mana cost is very possibly an acceptable balance, though.
Unmask is not broken, per se, but it is definitely a warping influence because it makes combo decks almost completely undisruptible in combination with Sickening Shoal.
Lattice is the critical piece of a combo deck that is far too good let live, as Chimp explained.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
The original 5cb#1 had three banned cards: Meddling Mage, Strip Mine, Wasteland. Greebo kept a tight lid on bannings, so everything else on that list was there because of a deck that seriously warped the metagame. It's possible that the Mage could turn out to be fair, we could try it some time.
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The trouble is, Demystify sucks, and I cannot seem to think of anything that will consistently win that doesn't.
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It turns out that Glory did not actually perform especially well this past week. It isn't impossible that it could be okay as a part of the metagame. It just annoys me because it makes 5CB play more like RAF.
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What's RAF, and what's so bad about it?
The analogy is to say that RAF is much closer to rock-paper-scissors than is desired for a metagame.
As for Barren Glory, leave it be. It's had one good showing, when Chimpanzee won with it. Other than that, it's just been a consistent middle-scoring deck.
Many decks can effectively win on the first turn; what's so special about Barren Glory?
Hate that's effective against it is equally effective against the other lotus decks in the meta and note that Halinn's Good Will Hunting deck beat jcsuperstar's Coercion-Glory in total points. No one complains about that deck, and I'd argue that it's actually the more powerful because on the draw, it has no problems with targeted removal, which is always prevalent. Barren Glory is the new Rakdos-Pry.
For all of the above reasons, the ban gets a "no" vote from me.
BWTeysa, Orzhov Scion
GWRhys the Redeemed
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GRXenagos, God of Revels
GThrun, the Last Troll
GStompy
If BG dominated both on the draw and on the play, then yes it should be banned. But most decks worth their snuff should be able to win when they go first.
There are definitely solid ways to beat this stupid thing when it goes first - (hint: look at the past decks that have been played for inspiration as to how to do it, the answers are already practically there.) There are at least two very solid decks I have in mind that go 6-0 vs any Cheese variant, without being narrow in the least.
DON'T BAN IT - AT LEAST NOT YET.
As a preface, I wasn't playing during 5CB's original run, so feel free to tell me how stupid I am for even bringing up some of these cards. The cards I'd like to look at are Unmask, Meddling Mage and Mycosynth Lattice.
Unmask is the card I least understand. Thoughtseize does the same thing, replacing the cost of a card with the cost of B, which I would think is actually better.
Meddling Mage is like a pumped-up Mesmeric Fiend. Compared to a card that sees very little play, it gets +1/+1 and has the possiblity of stopping multiple Lotuses on the play. It also costs UW, which isn't the easiest of mana costs to afford.
I know there was a good deck with Myscosynth Lattice in it. What was that deck, and would it warp the metagame if that deck were legal?
BWTeysa, Orzhov Scion
GWRhys the Redeemed
GUKruphix, God of Horizons
GRXenagos, God of Revels
GThrun, the Last Troll
GStompy
Meddling Mage: I don't remember why it's banned. Could be unbannable, since it is very similar to Mesmeric Fiend.
Mycosynth Lattice was ridiculous with Lotus, Channel, Titania's Song. It locks out all lands and 0 cost artifacts while creating a 6/6 and a 4/4, so provided no Foils it is nearly unbeatable when it's on the play, and had a solid win percentage going second as well.
I am all for banning Barren Glory. Even with a field heavily hating it I scored 48 (-1), because my build really requires Chain of Vapor, Demistify, or Abolish to lose. Anything that can walk into a field well prepared for it and largely metagaming against it and still get 4th deserves a ban.
3CB and 4CB5CB!It is basically better than Mesmeric Fiend in every way except mana cost, and Mesmeric Fiend is good, even if it hasn't seen much recent play. The mana cost is very possibly an acceptable balance, though.
Unmask is not broken, per se, but it is definitely a warping influence because it makes combo decks almost completely undisruptible in combination with Sickening Shoal.
Lattice is the critical piece of a combo deck that is far too good let live, as Chimp explained.
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