This thread contains the results for week 3 of All Blind Tournament #11 and is the start of week 4 of ABT#11.
As the entries began to come in this week I was briefly worried that Red Sun's Zenith was some kind of supertech that I'd somehow overlooked. But no, in fact it was just immensely popular for some reason. There was one card this round that made me go :o:o:o, but I'll let you read about that for yourself. Let's just say I got halfway through writing the submitter a PM pointing out that it didn't target anything when I read the card and discovered that it did!
Also, I'm pleased to welcome cruelshy to ABT... account newly created just to play, I hear!
Week 3 of ABT#11
This round was Target Practice.
Deck size:
20
3 cards
Land Rule:
20
Land Rule
Special Rules:
Your deck may only contain cards which either require one or more targets when cast or which have at least one activated or triggered ability which requires one or more targets.
03 aurorasparrow :: "Hammer of BogDown" Bog Down / Capsize / Red Sun's Zenith Capsize and Bog Down have some nice synergy... but still can't trap enemy Zeniths!
04 tomsloger :: "Turbo Sun" Utopia Sprawl / Red Sun's Zenith / Vindicate The acceleration is handy in the mirror, but other than that you might have had better options for that slot?
05 knobbodi :: "Mr Bouncy" Eight-and-a-Half-Tails / Karakas / Venser, Shaper Savant Venser was one of the few remaining ways to interact with spells and Karakas is indeed the tech you need to make it playable... lack of speed is your only weakness.
06 WhammWhamme :: "ALL THE PERMANENTS MUST DIE!" Necrotic Sliver / Volrath's Stronghold / Vraska the Unseen In a different metagame this might have been great, but Sliver is already slow so a 5-drop as your third card wasn't quite the thing.
07 Mogg :: "Deceptively Fast" Deceiver Exarch / Splinter Twin / Utopia Sprawl I was amazed by how few combo decks there were under the circumstances, but it was Utopia Sprawl that really made this good.
08 cruelshy :: "Bashling" Fulminator Mage / Ashling the Extinguisher / Faith's Shield Faith's Shield is a lovely bit of tech and gets a lot done here. Mage was this deck's weakness, with too few decks relying on nonbasics to make it good.
09 Reyemile :: "Replay" Wheel of Sun and Moon / Vindicate / Devil's Play This deck has excellent inevitability. Also, destroying the opponent's lands is a cunning way to win burn races!
Blind Magic is an online Magic format played here on the forums. Players play with an extremely limited deck size, such as 3 cards. Players begin with their entire deck (ie: those three cards) in hand and have no library (players don't lose when they fail to draw a card because of this). Due to the extremely limited number of play options given with their small deck size, games are calculated, rather then played, with an absolute determined winner (or a tie). Each player plays a match of two games against each other player who submitted - once going first, and once going second. Wins, losses, and ties for each of those two games are calculated by the moderator and players. The actual fun of the game comes from trying to decide which cards you will be playing.
What is the All Blind Tournament?
The All Blind Tournament is a four-week XCB tournament, which spans all card blind formats and embraces a progressive anti-metagame. For each week of the four-week tournament, a new XCB format is announced for players to enter. Players compete for points (similiar to the PotM points for previous XCB games) each round. At the end of the four-week tournament, the player who has accumulated the most points over the four weeks wins the tournament, and receives a real-world prize.
Basic Rules of All Blind Tournament
Below lies the rules of ABT written in laymen's terms for ease of understanding.
While a comprehensive rule system exists, new players and quick glances are best left for this basic explanation.
Overview
The All Blind Tournament (ABT) is a Magic tournament that consists of four rounds of X Card Blind (XCB), run entirely within this forum. To compete, entrants submit decks containing X cards which are played against each other. Scoring assumes optimal play, without randomness or concealed information.
Deck Construction Rules
1. A deck must contain exactly X cards.
2. A deck may contain any number of copies of any Vintage-legal card, but can't contain any cards on the ABT Banned List.
3. A player's deck must not enable that player to win the game before an opponent's second turn.
4. A player's deck must not enable that player to force an opponent to lose any cards in his or her hand before an opponent's second turn.
5. A player's deck must enable that player to win the game.
Deck Submission Rules
6. An entrant submits his or her deck to the ABT moderator by private message (pm).
Playing the Decks
7. Entrants don't actually play their decks, because game results can be determined theoretically.
8. Each player starts the game with the cards in his or her deck in his or her hand.
9. A player doesn't lose the game as a result of being unable to draw a card.
10. A random effect resolves in favor of the opponent of the owner of that effect.
11. Players know all information that would normally be concealed from them.
12. Each player plays one two-game match against each other player, and each player is the starting player once per match.
Points
13. The entrant with the most points in a round is the round winner. For each match, an entrant earns 3 points per game win and 1 point per drawn game. However, an entrant earns only 2 points for a split match (each player wins a game).
14. The entrant with the most points in the four rounds comprising the ABT is the tournament winner.
Extra Rules
15. Some optional rules may be used; see Optional Rules.
16. The Basic Rules don't cover every issue. For in-depth rules, see Comprehensive Rules.
Optional Rules
Land Rule
Any player may play a basic land of his or her choice from outside the game any time he or she could normally play a land.
Expanded Land Rule
Any player may play a basic land of his or her choice from outside the game any time he or she could normally play a land. Any player may play an additional land on each of his or her turns from his or her hand.
Alternative Land Rule
If a player would draw a card from an empty library, that player puts a basic land card of his or her choice from outside the game into his or her hand instead. The starting player doesn't skip the draw step of his or her first turn.
Sanctioned Magic Format
A deck may contain only cards contained in sets legal in the specified format.
Counter Rule
Until each player has completed two turns, each player ignores any part of an effect of a source an opponent owns that would counter a spell that player controls.
Life Rule
If neither player would win otherwise, then the player who maintains the higher life total wins the game. Determine whether a deck enables the player of that deck to win the game as though this rule didn't exist.
Special Format
Other rules are specified.
XCB Comprehensive Rules
Below lies the comprehensive rules system for the ABT.
Rules are written for precision and game clarification. They are not written for ease of reading.
Game Rules
1.1. There are many versions of XCB. Each version has a name, of the form XCB 'Land Rule' 'Sanctioned Magic Format' 'Special Format' '(Bonus)' 'Counter Rule' 'Life Rule'.
1.1a. X is a number.
1.1b. 'Land Rule' can be LR, ELR, ALR, or nothing. LR indicates that the basic land rule is in effect, ELR indicates that the expanded land rule is in effect, and ALR indicates that the alternative land rule is in effect (see Rule 1.7).
1.1c. 'Sanctioned Magic Format' can be the name of a sanctioned Magic constructed format or nothing. The name of a format indicates that only cards contained in sets legal in that format may be submitted. This is an exception to rule 2.3c.
1.1d. 'Special Format' can be the name of at least one special format or nothing. The name of a special format indicates that the special format in effect (see Rule 1.8).
1.1e. 'Bonus' can be (Bonus) or nothing. (Bonus) modifies the preceding special format, indicating that an entrant must not follow the rules of that format, but that entrant will earn a specified number of bonus points if he or she does (see Rule 2.4f).
1.1f. 'Counter Rule' can be C or nothing. C indicates that the counter rule is in effect (see Rule 1.9).
1.1g. 'Life Rule' can be LF, AL, or nothing. LF indicates that the life rule is in effect and AL indicates that the alternative life rule is in effect (see Rule 1.10).
1.2. Decks are not played, but are scored as though they were. The player of a deck is the entrant who submitted that deck.
1.3. Except for the changes described in these rules, games follow the rules for a normal game of Magic.
1.3a. Ignore any part of an instruction that isn't covered by these rules or the rules of Magic.
1.4. An entrant's deck contains exactly X cards (see Rule 1.1).
1.4a. A player's opening hand contains the cards in his or her deck.
1.4b. Players don't draw hands or mulligan.
1.4c. Players don't have sideboards.
1.5. Players' libraries begin the game empty.
1.5a. A player doesn't lose the game as a result of being unable to draw a card.
1.6. A cost or effect that would produce a random result produces the result that least benefits the player who paid the cost or the owner of the source of the effect instead.
1.7. Some versions of XCB use a land rule.
1.7a. This is the basic land rule (LR). Any player may play a basic land or basic snow land of the subtype of his or her choice from outside the game any time he or she could normally play a land.
1.7b. This is the expanded land rule (ELR). Any player may play a basic land or basic snow land of the subtype of his or her choice from outside the game any time he or she could normally play a land. Any player may play an additional land on each of his or her turns from his or her hand.
1.7c. This is the alternative land rule (ALR). If a player would draw a card from an empty library, that player puts a basic land or basic snow land card of the subtype of his or her choice from outside the game into his or her hand instead. The starting player doesn't skip the draw step of his or her first turn.
1.8. Some versions of XCB use a special format. A special format is an extra set of rules. These rules overwrite any other applicable rules. A non-comprehensive list of special formats is maintained here.
1.8a. Some special formats cause an emblem to be put into the command zone. Abilities of those emblems can't be countered by spells or abilities, except as modified by a special format.
1.8b. Some special formats cause players to draw hands. The drawn cards become part of that player's opening hand.
1.8c. Some special formats generate continuous effects. Continuous effects generated by special formats are applied in the order those formats are listed in the XCB version name, before any other effects that could be applied in a layer.
1.8d. Some special formats require an entrant to make some number of decisions in addition to or instead of submitting a deck. An entrant's submission is that entrant's deck and any decisions that entrant makes. An entrant's submission must not violate rule 2.3 if all instances of the word 'deck' in that rule are replaced with 'submission'.
1.8e. Some special formats require entrants to make decisions "before the start of each game". For these decisions, follow the "Active Player, Nonactive Player order" rule, replacing "active player" with "starting player".
1.8f. Some special formats refer to decks that obtain or could obtain results. Saying that a deck obtains or could obtain a result means that the player of that deck obtains or could obtain that result in a game or match against another player (see Rule 1.11). If a deck obtains or could obtain a result against another deck, then the player of that deck obtains or could obtain that result against the player of the other deck.
1.9. Some versions of XCB use the counter rule.
1.9a. This is the counter rule (C). Until each player has completed two turns, each player ignores any part of an effect of a source an opponent owns that would counter a spell that player controls.
1.10. Some versions of XCB use a life rule.
1.10a. This is the life rule (LF). If neither player would win otherwise, then the player who maintains the higher life total wins the game. Determine whether a deck enables the player of that deck to win a match as though this rule didn't exist (see Rule 2.3b).
1.10b. This is the alternative life rule (AL). If neither player would win otherwise, then the player who maintains the higher life total wins the game.
1.11. Each player plays one match against each other player.
1.11a. Each match has two games.
1.11b. Each player is the starting player for one game in each match.
1.11c. Games are played with perfect information; players know the identities of face-down cards and cards in hidden zones, and players know which decisions have been made by other players.
1.11d. Games are played optimally. The best outcome for a player is to win the game and the worst outcome is to lose the game.
1.11e. If a game would continue indefinitely, then the game is a draw.
Tournament Rules
2.1. Entrants compete in a competition.
2.1a. The shortest type of competition is a round. Typically, each round lasts one week.
2.1b. The ABT is a competition consisting of four rounds.
2.2. An entrant submits his or her deck to the ABT moderator.
2.2a. An entrant submits his or her deck by private message (pm).
2.2b. An entrant may submit multiple decks, but only the most recently submitted deck is counted.
2.2c. An illegal deck is not counted. At the moderator’s discretion, an illegal deck may be replaced by a similar deck – in which any cards causing that deck to be illegal have been removed or replaced.
2.2d. The moderator determines the result of each match. Entrants may challenge results, but not after the results of the first round of a new ABT has been posted, except at the moderator's discretion.
2.2e. An entrant may name his or her deck. If an entrant doesn't, then the moderator may name it.
2.3. Decks are subject to some restrictions.
2.3a. An entrant may not submit a deck that could enable the player of that deck to win the game or force any cards in an opponent's hand to change zones before an opponent's second turn. A card is forced to change zones if the owner of that card could make no sequence of decisions that would not result in either that card changing zones or that player losing the game before his or her second turn. Ignore this rule in the following cases:
i. All cards in an opponent's hand that would be forced to change zones would not be cast by that opponent and would enter the battlefield under that opponent's control. For example, a 4CB deck with two copies of Black Lotus could contain Stronghold Gambit but could not contain Wild Evocation.
ii. All cards in an opponent's hand that weren't there as a result of a cost or effect that opponent controlled that would be forced to change zones during the resolution of a spell or ability would be in that opponent's hand after that spell or ability resolved. For example, a 3CB deck could contain Timetwister and Black Lotus but an 8CB deck could not.
iii. Cards in an opponent's hand would be forced to change zones only if cards in that opponent's hand that started outside the game would cause that opponent's maximum hand size at the start of the game to be exceeded. For example, a 3CB LR deck could contain two copies of Ancestral Recall.
iv. The rule would be violated only in a game that existed as a result of an effect that resolved not before the specified turn or until each player had completed the specified number of turns that restarted the game or created a subgame. For example, a 2CB LR deck could contain Karn Liberated.
v. The rule wouldn't be violated if opponents' cards had no rules text. For example, a 2CB deck could contain Plains and Eager Cadet if a special format read "Each player gets an emblem with 'You control your opponents during your turn'" and an opponent's deck could contain Dryad Arbor and Pact of Negation.
2.3b. An entrant may not submit a deck that wouldn't enable the player of that deck to win a match (see Rule 2.4d) against the player of at least one deck satisfying all rules.
2.3c. A deck may contain any number of copies of any card legal in Vintage (Type 1). Except as modified by a special format, all cards used in a game must be legal in Vintage.
2.3d. A deck may contain any number of copies of any card that will become legal in Vintage upon release of a set that's been revealed fully and officially since the start of the round.
2.3e. A deck may not contain any cards on the ABT Banned List.
2.4. Points determine round standings.
2.4a. Entrants are ranked – first to last – in order of decreasing number of points.
2.4b. For each match, an entrant earns 3 points per game win and 1 point per drawn game.
2.4c. The combined result of both games in a match is called a match result. Possible match results are: 6 – two wins, 4 – a win and a draw, 3 or 2 or S – a win and a loss, 2 – two draws, 1 – a draw and a loss, and 0 – two losses.
2.4d. Some match results are also denoted by names: two wins – match win, a win and a loss – split match, two draws – draw, and two losses – match loss. An entrant wins the match if he or she wins both games, splits the match if he or she wins a game and loses a game, draws a match if he or she draws both games, and loses the match if he or she loses both games.
2.4e. An entrant earns only 2 points for a split match. This is an exception to rule 2.4b.
2.4f. An entrant may earn a number of bonus points defined by a special format. An entrant earns these points in addition to any other points.
2.4g. A table of match results is posted at the end of each round. Its rows represent entrants and its columns represent those entrants' opponents. An entrant's total number of points is listed at the end of his or her row.
2.5. The entrant with the most tournament points over the course of the ABT is the tournament winner.
2.5a. Each round, an entrant receives tournament points equal to his or her average match result for that round multiplied by 100, rounded to the nearest integer or some number of decimal places chosen at the moderator's discretion. For example, an entrant scoring 6-6-6-6-X-0-0-0 in a round with 8 entrants receives 340 tournament points ((6 + 6 + 6 + 6) / (8 - 1) x 100).
2.5b. If two or more entrants would win the ABT, then each of those entrants competes in additional rounds specified by the moderator, until only one entrant has the most tournament points. Each additional round contains only the entrants who have the most tournament points. The moderator may specify a limit to the number of additional rounds.
3. Prize Rules
3.1. A prize shall be given to the tournament winner.
3.1a. The winner of the tournament shall be given the prize described within the tournament, or a suitable replacement upon the tournament's end.
3.1b. If the winner of the tournament has won two or more tournaments, then the highest ranked entrant who hasn't won two or more tournaments shall be given the prize instead.
3.1c. If the winner was a moderator for two or more rounds of the tournament, then the highest ranked entrant who wasn't the moderator for two or more rounds of that tournament shall be given the prize instead. This is to ensure fair play.
3.1d. An entrant may decline the prize. If he or she does, then that entrant may designate another entrant to receive the prize.
3.1e. Entrants under the age of 18 are ineligible for prizes, due to federal laws regarding the sharing of personal information of minors.
3.1f. In the event that a prize can't be given to an entrant, the moderator will do his best to find another suitable way to reward that entrant.
3.1g. No prize is 100% guaranteed, but is assumed upon a good faith basis. Let's face it, with international customs, weird laws, etc, we can't guarantee anything. We'll do our best.
3.2. As a prized tournament, special scoring rules and practices are in place.
3.2a. Entrants are responsible for their own scoring. Assistance will be given, especially to new entrants, but it is ultimately up to each entrant to ensure his or her scoring is completed and accurate.
3.2b. Incomplete scores are considered losses, even to both players in a match if necessary. This is to make sure a winner is determined at the end of a tournament.
3.2c. The moderator always has the final word regarding scores and rules. Entrants may question any scoring the moderator does, until the moderator says that a match's scoring is final.
3.2d. The moderator may, at his or her discretion, determine a match is too difficult to calculate and give it a tie score, or his or her best guess. Again, this is final.
3.2e. Once a winner has been announced as final, that entrant shall receive the prize, even if errors in scoring or points are shown later.
Permanently Banned Cards
The following cards are permanently banned in the All Blind Tournament.
Each round will have an additional banned list that extends beyond, but always includes, these cards.
Previous standings will always be posted below the opening post of each week's thread.
Standings will be updated after the current week has been completed and score checking has finished.
--
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
--
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
My deck code for ABT 11.4 : 773DB693A7B59BCD0645BABBDA02AA3A
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MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
05 knobbodi - Eight-and-a-Half-Tails / Karakas / Venser, Shaper Savant 3-3: knobbodi has three mana to give Exarch protection from white on turn two, so I can only keep him off three mana on the play. 6-0
3-3: knobbodi has three mana to give Exarch protection from white on turn two
It's LR, not ELR, so I think you 6-0 this?
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MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
...ugh I hate having multiple land rules. The names provide no clue as to which is which and it's ridiculously easy to mix them up.
I do this too. And you're right, it's pretty awkward.
The three rules are:
* Play a basic land from outside the game (LR).
* Play an extra basic land from outside the game (ELR).
* Draws from empty libraries are basic lands (ALR).
I tentatively propose we rename these as:
* Basic Land Rule.
* Extra Land Rule.
* Draw Land Rule.
...respectively. Any views on this?
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<Limited Clan>
I do this too. And you're right, it's pretty awkward.
The three rules are:
* Play a basic land from outside the game (LR).
* Play an extra basic land from outside the game (ELR).
* Draws from empty libraries are basic lands (ALR).
I tentatively propose we rename these as:
* Basic Land Rule.
* Extra Land Rule.
* Draw Land Rule.
...respectively. Any views on this?
I'm of the opinion that everyone assumes that its ELR, because that's been standard on these forums for ages, so if it's not ELR then the moderator has a responsibility to clearly and distinctly give players a reminder that it's not what we're using. I dodged the bullet this round, but lost a lot of points to a more-or-less blank Mutavault in Shadowmoor block round.
I do this too. And you're right, it's pretty awkward.
The three rules are:
* Play a basic land from outside the game (LR).
* Play an extra basic land from outside the game (ELR).
* Draws from empty libraries are basic lands (ALR).
I tentatively propose we rename these as:
* Basic Land Rule.
* Extra Land Rule.
* Draw Land Rule.
Because it's way less disruptive than the other two. LR just gives you access to mana and leaves it to the format to create the gameplay. By contrast, ELR gives lands this weird bonus acceleration power and ALR gives you access to infinite cards if you need discard fodder.
To put it another way, if I were forced to remove all but one of the three from the rules, it's definitely LR I'd keep.
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5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
On the draw you can't kill my dudes thanks to Mother of Runes, and when they get bigger you need to be untapped not to die. I can't make one unblockable because in response you kill it.
Admittedly this is a complex and confusing matchup, but I think I can 6-0 it. Maybe. Something like this:
C: Plains, Tactician.
B: Swamp.
C: Plains, Mother of Runes, grow Tactician (2/2).
B: Swamp, Augur.
C: Plains, Harrier, grow Tactician (3/3).
B: Plains, Sliver.
C: Plains, grow Tactician (4/4).
B: Stronghold.
C: Plains, Harrier, grow Tactician (5/5).
B: Swamp.
C: Tap Augur with Harrier, attack to 15.
B: Swamp.
C: Tap Augur with Harrier, attack to 10. EOT: Sliver activates targetting Mother of Runes, which saves itself, activate Stronghold.
B: Draw Sliver. Swamp, Sliver, activate it killing Mother of Runes.
C: Tap Augur with Harrier, attack to 5.
B: Activate Stronghold, draw and cast Sliver.
C: Tap Augur with Harrier, attack, Sliver chumps.
B: Activate Stronghold, draw and cast Sliver, activate to kill Tactician.
Being aggressive earlier doesn't help you since Harrier at 4/4 takes an extra turn to kill and attacking without tapping Augur means it just blocks and regenerates.
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Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
At the very least, we could have the full text of the chosen land rule explicitly stated in the new round information. prevents people (especially newcomers) from having to root around.
also, mogg's deck is ridiculous.
03 vs 01: Red Sun's Zenith kills anything he plays, but Bog Down removes anything he doesn't play.
6-0
03 vs 02: Capsize Mom end of his turn. If he allows it, Bog Down. Otherwise, Zenith.
6-0
03 vs 04: he outraces me every time.
0-6
03 vs 05: I discard Venser and win with burn.
6-0
03 vs 06: If he plays Sliver with less than 6 mana, I Zenith it. I outrace him with Zenith.
6-0
03 vs 07: As stated.
0-6
03 vs 08: Bog Down takes Ashling. I capsize lock fulminator mage unless he protects with Faith's Shield. Either way, Zenith wins.
6-0
03 vs 09: I hold up Capsize mana. If he casts Vindicate or Devil's Play, I bounce Wheel of Sun and Moon. I Zenith him to death.
6-0
At the very least, we could have the full text of the chosen land rule explicitly stated in the new round information. prevents people (especially newcomers) from having to root around.
I like this approach. Give the name of the land rule to save experienced players looking it up, then reminder text in case you're not sure what it means.
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MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
Against bateleur:
He has to pop augur or venser shenanigans will beat him, and 8.5 comes down a turn earlier than necrotic sliver so I just outrace him. 6-0
Against Clairval:
8.5 stops harrier and can never be blocked, and venser prevents tactician from getting too huge, and can circumvent mom runes by casting at eot and then using karakas to do it again. 6-0
Against aurorasparrow:
Bog down prevents venser karakas from going online and rsz outraces 8.5 0-6
Against tomsloger:
Utopia sprawl and vindicate prevent me from racing RSZ since even under venser he can RSZ for half his available mana. 0-6
Against Whammwhamme:
8.5 stops sliver, venser stops vraska 6-0
Against Mogg:
Even on the play, I'm too slow to stop the combo 0-6
Against cruelshy:
Fulminator has to take out karakas, but I play plains plains island island then karakas, bouncing ashling twice. Then 8.5 shuts her down, and I kill him 2 points at a time. Faith's shield causes her to connect once, but 8.5 stops her ability. 6-0
Against Reyemile:
On the draw, all of my lands get vindicated. But on the play, 8.5 does work and saves them. Then when he casts devil's play I venser wheel so he has to flash it back for lethal and I easily race 3-3
Against Reyemile:
On the draw, all of my lands get vindicated. But on the play, 8.5 does work and saves them. Then when he casts devil's play I venser wheel so he has to flash it back for lethal and I easily race 3-3
Here is what I posted about this weeks forum the day after the format was pasted.
However, there is a bigger problem. If spells "can't be exiled while they are on the stack," then Flashback spells return to the graveyard each time you cast them. Suggest, "spells can't be exiled or countered by spells or abilities"
Bateleur never changed the rule. I think I can keep casting devils play over and over from the graveyard? Or possibly when I flashback devil's play, it never leaves the stack and the game ends in a draw.
Flashback doesn't exile the spell while it's on the stack. After the spell resolves, it then leaves the stack and goes to the exile zone as the last step of it resolving. But this is complicated enough that a ruling might be in order
05 knobbodi :: "Mr Bouncy" Eight-and-a-Half-Tails / Karakas / Venser, Shaper Savant
6-0 by the time venser can be played, i can just rsz for less to be able to play it twice or keep vindicate mana open.
I think I can keep casting devils play over and over from the graveyard? Or possibly when I flashback devil's play, it never leaves the stack and the game ends in a draw.
Neither of these happens, since Flashback doesn't exile spells, it exiles cards. (In much the same way that a creature card is not considered to be a creature in any zone besides the battlefield.)
But this is complicated enough that a ruling might be in order
It's difficult to make watertight ruling about things which literally cannot arise in regular Magic. In this case, whilst arguments can be made for the "goes to the graveyard" version based on 608.2k, they're unavoidably rather legalistic (hinging on whether a card is still a spell during the application of Flashback's replacement effect), which I don't think is something to be encouraged.
My recommendation with such interactions is that if you want to submit a deck that exploits a possible interesting effect, check it works by PM before the submission deadline.
There is also a reasonable argument to be made that I should have just incorporated Reyemile's proposed amendment to the rules at the point he mentioned it. That too is reasonable, but I think it again sets the bad precedent of encouraging players to get a bit too interested in what happens when sloppily written rules are added to Magic. XCB's special rules are often a bit ropey (at least I don't think it's just mine ;)) and I'm sure none of us want a situation in some future round where some unforeseen rules problem breaks the round in a way that messes up the whole ABT it's part of.
(For avoidance of doubt I should make absolutely clear that I'm not suggesting Reyemile was being at all dodgy. Indeed, he's been very helpful in PMing me about potential problems with rounds and in discussions in the threads.)
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<Limited Clan>
Second, is Wheel of Torture legal? It can win in 1CB but not in 5CB.
It is indeed legal.
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<Limited Clan>
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This thread contains the results for week 3 of All Blind Tournament #11 and is the start of week 4 of ABT#11.
As the entries began to come in this week I was briefly worried that Red Sun's Zenith was some kind of supertech that I'd somehow overlooked. But no, in fact it was just immensely popular for some reason. There was one card this round that made me go :o:o:o, but I'll let you read about that for yourself. Let's just say I got halfway through writing the submitter a PM pointing out that it didn't target anything when I read the card and discovered that it did!
Also, I'm pleased to welcome cruelshy to ABT... account newly created just to play, I hear!
Week 3 of ABT#11 Next Round : Week 4 of ABT#11 Information
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
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<Limited Clan>
reyemile 1368
Mogg 1289
tomsloger 942
WhammWhamme 833
aurorasparrow 775
knobbodi 614
bateleur 350
clairval 303
cruelshy 000
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
07 Mogg - Deceiver Exarch / Splinter Twin / Utopia Sprawl
vs.
09 Reyemile - Wheel of Sun and Moon / Vindicate / Devil's Play
3-3 -> 6-0: Exarch taps a land to prevent Vindicate and Exarch has enough toughness to survive Devil's Play.
My line:
X| 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
7| 3 6 6 6 6 6 X 6 6 | 44
01 bateleur - Volrath's Stronghold / Necrotic Sliver / Augur of Skulls
3-3: Augur stops Twin.
02 Clairval - Cenn's Tactician / Goldmeadow Harrier / Mother of Runes
6-0: Mother can't target other players' creatures.
03 aurorasparrow - Bog Down / Capsize / Red Sun's Zenith
6-0: Exarch taps a land pre-combo.
04 tomsloger - Utopia Sprawl / Red Sun's Zenith / Vindicate
6-0: Exarch taps the enchanted land pre-combo.
05 knobbodi - Eight-and-a-Half-Tails / Karakas / Venser, Shaper Savant
3-3: knobbodi has three mana to give Exarch protection from white on turn two, so I can only keep him off three mana on the play.6-006 WhammWhamme - Necrotic Sliver / Volrath's Stronghold / Vraska the Unseen
6-0: Too slow.
08 cruelshy - Fulminator Mage / Ashling the Extinguisher / Faith's Shield
6-0: Shield can't target my permanents.
BWTeysa, Orzhov Scion
GWRhys the Redeemed
GUKruphix, God of Horizons
GRXenagos, God of Revels
GThrun, the Last Troll
GStompy
Ooh, good point - I'd missed that Exarch gave you a tap there, I'm so used to the untap mode!
It's LR, not ELR, so I think you 6-0 this?
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
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<Limited Clan>
Good point. In retrospect, it makes sense that I played Utopia Sprawl.
BWTeysa, Orzhov Scion
GWRhys the Redeemed
GUKruphix, God of Horizons
GRXenagos, God of Revels
GThrun, the Last Troll
GStompy
I do this too. And you're right, it's pretty awkward.
The three rules are:
* Play a basic land from outside the game (LR).
* Play an extra basic land from outside the game (ELR).
* Draws from empty libraries are basic lands (ALR).
I tentatively propose we rename these as:
* Basic Land Rule.
* Extra Land Rule.
* Draw Land Rule.
...respectively. Any views on this?
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<Limited Clan>
Why do we even have LR? (BLR)
Yes, clarity is the goal, but I don't see why ELR should get special treatment. The real question is how best to go about being clear.
Because it's way less disruptive than the other two. LR just gives you access to mana and leaves it to the format to create the gameplay. By contrast, ELR gives lands this weird bonus acceleration power and ALR gives you access to infinite cards if you need discard fodder.
To put it another way, if I were forced to remove all but one of the three from the rules, it's definitely LR I'd keep.
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
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<Limited Clan>
Admittedly this is a complex and confusing matchup, but I think I can 6-0 it. Maybe. Something like this:
C: Plains, Tactician.
B: Swamp.
C: Plains, Mother of Runes, grow Tactician (2/2).
B: Swamp, Augur.
C: Plains, Harrier, grow Tactician (3/3).
B: Plains, Sliver.
C: Plains, grow Tactician (4/4).
B: Stronghold.
C: Plains, Harrier, grow Tactician (5/5).
B: Swamp.
C: Tap Augur with Harrier, attack to 15.
B: Swamp.
C: Tap Augur with Harrier, attack to 10. EOT: Sliver activates targetting Mother of Runes, which saves itself, activate Stronghold.
B: Draw Sliver. Swamp, Sliver, activate it killing Mother of Runes.
C: Tap Augur with Harrier, attack to 5.
B: Activate Stronghold, draw and cast Sliver.
C: Tap Augur with Harrier, attack, Sliver chumps.
B: Activate Stronghold, draw and cast Sliver, activate to kill Tactician.
Being aggressive earlier doesn't help you since Harrier at 4/4 takes an extra turn to kill and attacking without tapping Augur means it just blocks and regenerates.
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
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MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
also, mogg's deck is ridiculous.
03 vs 01: Red Sun's Zenith kills anything he plays, but Bog Down removes anything he doesn't play.
6-0
03 vs 02: Capsize Mom end of his turn. If he allows it, Bog Down. Otherwise, Zenith.
6-0
03 vs 04: he outraces me every time.
0-6
03 vs 05: I discard Venser and win with burn.
6-0
03 vs 06: If he plays Sliver with less than 6 mana, I Zenith it. I outrace him with Zenith.
6-0
03 vs 07: As stated.
0-6
03 vs 08: Bog Down takes Ashling. I capsize lock fulminator mage unless he protects with Faith's Shield. Either way, Zenith wins.
6-0
03 vs 09: I hold up Capsize mana. If he casts Vindicate or Devil's Play, I bounce Wheel of Sun and Moon. I Zenith him to death.
6-0
Final score:
03 | 6 6 X 0 6 6 0 6 6 | 36
4th place at CCC&G Pro Tour
Chances of bad hands (<2 or >4 land):
21: 28.9%
22: 27.5%
23: 26.3%
24: 25.5%
25: 25.1%
26: 25.3%
I like this approach. Give the name of the land rule to save experienced players looking it up, then reminder text in case you're not sure what it means.
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
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MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
He has to pop augur or venser shenanigans will beat him, and 8.5 comes down a turn earlier than necrotic sliver so I just outrace him. 6-0
Against Clairval:
8.5 stops harrier and can never be blocked, and venser prevents tactician from getting too huge, and can circumvent mom runes by casting at eot and then using karakas to do it again. 6-0
Against aurorasparrow:
Bog down prevents venser karakas from going online and rsz outraces 8.5 0-6
Against tomsloger:
Utopia sprawl and vindicate prevent me from racing RSZ since even under venser he can RSZ for half his available mana. 0-6
Against Whammwhamme:
8.5 stops sliver, venser stops vraska 6-0
Against Mogg:
Even on the play, I'm too slow to stop the combo 0-6
Against cruelshy:
Fulminator has to take out karakas, but I play plains plains island island then karakas, bouncing ashling twice. Then 8.5 shuts her down, and I kill him 2 points at a time. Faith's shield causes her to connect once, but 8.5 stops her ability. 6-0
Against Reyemile:
On the draw, all of my lands get vindicated. But on the play, 8.5 does work and saves them. Then when he casts devil's play I venser wheel so he has to flash it back for lethal and I easily race 3-3
Here is what I posted about this weeks forum the day after the format was pasted.
Bateleur never changed the rule. I think I can keep casting devils play over and over from the graveyard? Or possibly when I flashback devil's play, it never leaves the stack and the game ends in a draw.
04 tomsloger :: "Turbo Sun"
Utopia Sprawl / Red Sun's Zenith / Vindicate
Volrath's Stronghold / Necrotic Sliver / Augur of Skulls
6-0 discard and permanent destruction mean little to me.
02 Clairval :: "White Weenie"
Cenn's Tactician / Goldmeadow Harrier / Mother of Runes
6-0 i could go about destroying your creatures, but i can just outrace you
03 aurorasparrow :: "Hammer of BogDown"
Bog Down / Capsize / Red Sun's Zenith
6-0 this is why i played sprawl
05 knobbodi :: "Mr Bouncy"
Eight-and-a-Half-Tails / Karakas / Venser, Shaper Savant
6-0 by the time venser can be played, i can just rsz for less to be able to play it twice or keep vindicate mana open.
06 WhammWhamme :: "ALL THE PERMANENTS MUST DIE!"
Necrotic Sliver / Volrath's Stronghold / Vraska the Unseen
6-0 far too slow
07 Mogg :: "Deceptively Fast"
Deceiver Exarch / Splinter Twin / Utopia Sprawl
0-6 if im gonna lose, may as well be to my favorite combo lr deck
08 cruelshy :: "Bashling"
Fulminator Mage / Ashling the Extinguisher / Faith's Shield
6-0 sure. kill my creatures
09 Reyemile :: "Replay"
Wheel of Sun and Moon / Vindicate / Devil's Play
6-0 speed is key
4 | 6 6 6 X 6 6 0 6 6 | 42
Neither of these happens, since Flashback doesn't exile spells, it exiles cards. (In much the same way that a creature card is not considered to be a creature in any zone besides the battlefield.)
It's difficult to make watertight ruling about things which literally cannot arise in regular Magic. In this case, whilst arguments can be made for the "goes to the graveyard" version based on 608.2k, they're unavoidably rather legalistic (hinging on whether a card is still a spell during the application of Flashback's replacement effect), which I don't think is something to be encouraged.
My recommendation with such interactions is that if you want to submit a deck that exploits a possible interesting effect, check it works by PM before the submission deadline.
There is also a reasonable argument to be made that I should have just incorporated Reyemile's proposed amendment to the rules at the point he mentioned it. That too is reasonable, but I think it again sets the bad precedent of encouraging players to get a bit too interested in what happens when sloppily written rules are added to Magic. XCB's special rules are often a bit ropey (at least I don't think it's just mine ;)) and I'm sure none of us want a situation in some future round where some unforeseen rules problem breaks the round in a way that messes up the whole ABT it's part of.
(For avoidance of doubt I should make absolutely clear that I'm not suggesting Reyemile was being at all dodgy. Indeed, he's been very helpful in PMing me about potential problems with rounds and in discussions in the threads.)
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
8 | 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 X 0 | 0 |
Elemental tribal was far too slow for this format, and I gambled and lost on that Fulminator Mage.
First, what must those cards be able to win against? In general, backbuilds specify an opposing deck to beat.
Second, is Wheel of Torture legal? It can win in 1CB but not in 5CB.
BWTeysa, Orzhov Scion
GWRhys the Redeemed
GUKruphix, God of Horizons
GRXenagos, God of Revels
GThrun, the Last Troll
GStompy
This ISN'T a backbuild round.
Those cards must be able to win in the sense stipulated by rule 2.3b.
So, for example, Omniscience is an illegal card for this round because it cannot beat any legal 1CB (LR) deck and also has no mana ability.
It is indeed legal.
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Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>