I made an argument for the unbanning of Balance here. Also, as noted in later posts in that thread, Balance is less powerful than Balancing Act, which has only been banned in land rule rounds (2CB Banned List).
As for Chancellor, there's a good argument to be made that it keeps degenerate decks in check, but I think the evidence points more strongly to its presence having a bad effect on formats. Its minimal cost of inclusion causes it to place significant constraints on mana bases. In conjunction with additional disruption, it's quite powerful against even the decks that can resolve cards through Chancellor, because it buys time for that disruption to become active.
For reference, I compiled the ban lists of the different card blind formats into one list. If a card is banned in the ABT tournament, all four spaces will have X's in it.
Also for reference, here is the current discard rule for ABT:
2.3a. An entrant may not submit a deck that could enable the player of that deck to win the game or force any cards in an opponent's hand to change zones before an opponent's second turn.
Here are things I would like to see changed:
Discard Rule: Normalize the discard rule across all CBs, which will allow a few of the cards to be taken off their respective banned lists (Mesmeric Fiend, Unmask). In addition, the existence of Tidehollow Sculler makes me question why Mesmeric Fiend is still on the banned list.
Banned List - General: Cards banned in 3CB, 4CB, & 5CB but not 2CB should be banned in ABT (Magus of the Moon, Show and Tell). This has already been done with some of the cards. Ghost Quarter, Strip Mine, Wasteland do not appear on the 2CB banned list but are banned in ABT.
XCB Repository: Integrate the different banned lists into a single list, starting with ABT list of cards, then note any additional banned cards in the various formats below, without having to list the same card five different times in five different lists.
XCB Repository: Condense the thread to only include relevant posts for easier reference. Mogg did a good job with compiling information, but it would be nice to have all of that on a single page.
Balance: Unban in ABT. Keep Balance banned in 3CB. Mogg already covered the reasons in his post.
Chancellor of the Annex: Ban in ABT. Mogg already covered the reasons in his post.
I've added the compiled banned list into the general banned list spoiler in the Repository. I changed the formatting slightly, to make it easier for me to read.
I limited the bans to ones that existed when the format was last played, unless a ban was clearly warranted, so Laboratory Maniac is listed as banned in 4CB but Vampire Hexmage isn't (Karn was removed from the banned list). Hexmage probably should be banned in 4CB, but The Rack doesn't need to be banned in 5CB; bans warrant discussion.
The individual lists stayed, because I think those may be easier to read if someone's just looking for information on a particular format. I may reorganize those lists later to make them more similar to the summary list (edit: done).
There may be some merit to leaving the discard rule open-ended, because other versions have been interesting in the past. The current rules prescribes a default, and that's probably enough.
I believe Feyd_Ruin does intend to condense the thread at some point, but multiple posts are still necessary, because there's a cap of 75,000 characters per post.
I deleted my ban list on my last post on the Repository since you made yours. I formatted mine with the card name to the right because it was a pain adding all those white spaces after each card name.
While we are on the discussion of banned lists, we might as well work on all of them. We did play 3CB and 4CB normally during the first month of the ABT.
I deleted my ban list on my last post on the Repository since you made yours. I formatted mine with the card name to the right because it was a pain adding all those white spaces after each card name.
Yeah, I had the Excel formatting from when I did the round results, so I was able to do it faster.
While we are on the discussion of banned lists, we might as well work on all of them. We did play 3CB and 4CB normally during the first month of the ABT.
Flash: Ban in all formats. Worldspine Wurm makes Flash much better than it used to be.
Magus of the Moon: Ban in ABT. Magus has a warping effect on formats where it's relevant and sees no play at all in formats where it isn't.
Vampire Hexmage: Ban in 4CB. In 3CB, it's just a one-threat deck, and 5CB has shown itself capable of handling Hexmage. However, the combination of Hexmage-Depths and one additional piece of removal is potent.
I think the first thing to do is separate the list into a land-rule list and a no-land-rule list, given how different things are with a land rule.
Chancellor, for example, should be banned where there's no land rule, but it's a fair card with a land rule.
I agree with this sentiment, but that would be 3 lists to keep up with.
Two already causes some occasional "I forgot" :/
The main reason I do a perm ban list is because I don't like always having to list 8+ cards on every round, nor having to go back and forth on LR rounds vs NLR rounds. I would forget to add some of them on sometimes. I often already miss things I should have known to ban. Doing so on things like Leyline of Anticipation on a NLR round would be horrible - specifically because many would just assume it's still banned.
Two lists stops more confusion and awfulness then it causes.
I fear three lists will push it too close to what we're trying to avoid.
I agree wholeheartedly that Chancellor is fine in a LR round. But how often would it actually be ran? The same with Trinisphere, etc.
I'm ok with them banned in rounds they're not overpowered because they then become extremely narrow and unused 99% of the time.
All that said, I'm always open to discussion on the ban list and anything else.
I put the work into XCB for all of us to have fun, so it's important to make sure we're having fun.
It's never a "Feyd says, so that's the way it is"
That's unfun.
I agree wholeheartedly that Chancellor is fine in a LR round. But how often would it actually be ran? The same with Trinisphere, etc.
I think Chancellor could be decent. It slows down your opponent by a turn and then is an eventual win condition, as you don't need to devote any other cards to being able to cast it.
well, its only 6 votes, but it is unanimously against chancellor.
as for balance, im one of the votes to keep it banned and im not really convinced anymore. i think the best argument is that you cant even cast it until turn 3. thats a lot of hoops to go through.
im not in charge obviously, but i say we swap them on the banlist.
On the subject of the rules of xcb, a thought occurred to me today. At this time, I'm not advocating it - because I'm not sure how much it helps, and it may add more hassle than it's worth - but I'm not opposed to it either, so here it is.
Normally in Magic, there can exist sequences of actions which can be repeated an indefinite number of times. When that happens, a player demonstrates the sequence, then specifies a number of times to enact that sequence, and then the game continues.
In XCB, combos that can generate an indefinite number of turns - such as Time Vault / Voltaic Key - behave very much like the sequences of actions described above; unlike in other formats, information isn't added between turns via the draw step.
With that in mind, I wonder whether the XCB rules should change to treat a sequence that could be repeated an indefinite number of times over the course of many turns in the same manner as a sequence that could be repeated an indefinite number of times over the course of one turn. i.e., Vault / Key would no longer be able to cause the game to end in a draw by taking infinite turns. Rather, the Vault player would take some number of extra turns, then pass.
Magic should have rules for that, I thought. In Vintage, it's certainly possible for both players to have a Platinum Angel in play and one player have vault-key with no win condition. Can the vault-key player chose to draw the game?
Magic should have rules for that, I thought. In Vintage, it's certainly possible for both players to have a Platinum Angel in play and one player have vault-key with no win condition. Can the vault-key player chose to draw the game?
Once they've drawn their deck, no, I don't think so.
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do we want to unban balance?
do we want to ban chancellor of the annex?
anything else we want to discuss?
As for Chancellor, there's a good argument to be made that it keeps degenerate decks in check, but I think the evidence points more strongly to its presence having a bad effect on formats. Its minimal cost of inclusion causes it to place significant constraints on mana bases. In conjunction with additional disruption, it's quite powerful against even the decks that can resolve cards through Chancellor, because it buys time for that disruption to become active.
My vote: unban Balance, ban Chancellor.
BWTeysa, Orzhov Scion
GWRhys the Redeemed
GUKruphix, God of Horizons
GRXenagos, God of Revels
GThrun, the Last Troll
GStompy
| 2CB | 3CB | 4CB | 5CB | CARD
__________________________Win Condition
| _X_ | ___ | ___ | ___ | Red Sun's Zenith
| _X_ | _X_ | _X_ | _X_ | The Rack
| ___ | _X_ | ___ | ___ | Leonin Squire
| _X_ | _X_ | _X_ | _X_ | Meddling Mage
| ___ | _X_ | _X_ | ___ | Mesmeric Fiend
| _X_ | _X_ | ___ | ___ | Nezumi Shortfang
| _X_ | _X_ | _X_ | _X_ | Vampire Hexmage
| _X_ | _X_ | _X_ | _X_ | Laboratory Maniac
| ___ | _X_ | _X_ | _X_ | Magus of the Moon
| _X_ | ___ | ___ | ___ | White Sun's Zenith
| _X_ | ___ | ___ | ___ | Beacon of Creation
| ___ | ___ | ___ | _X_ | Empty the Warrens
| ___ | _X_ | ___ | ___ | Voidstone Gargoyle
| _X_ | _X_ | _X_ | _X_ | Barren Glory
| ___ | _X_ | _X_ | ___ | Form of the Dragon
__________________________Mana Source
| _X_ | ___ | ___ | ___ | Black Lotus
| _X_ | _X_ | _X_ | _X_ | Ghost Quarter
| _X_ | _X_ | _X_ | _X_ | Strip Mine
| _X_ | _X_ | _X_ | _X_ | Wasteland
__________________________Disruption
| ___ | _X_ | ___ | ___ | Glacial Chasm
| ___ | ___ | ___ | _X_ | Pact of Negation
| ___ | _X_ | ___ | ___ | Restore Balance
| _X_ | _X_ | _X_ | _X_ | Balance
| _X_ | _X_ | _X_ | ___ | Energy Field
| ___ | _X_ | ___ | ___ | Misguided Rage
| _X_ | _X_ | _X_ | _X_ | Trinisphere
| _X_ | ___ | ___ | ___ | Balancing Act
| ___ | _X_ | _X_ | ___ | Foil
| ___ | ___ | ___ | _X_ | Unmask
| _X_ | _X_ | _X_ | _X_ | Force of Will
| _X_ | _X_ | _X_ | _X_ | Karn Liberated
__________________________Utility
| _X_ | ___ | ___ | ___ | Fastbond
| _X_ | _X_ | _X_ | _X_ | Channel
| _X_ | _X_ | _X_ | _X_ | Flash
| _X_ | ___ | ___ | ___ | Time Walk
| ___ | _X_ | _X_ | _X_ | Show and Tell
| _X_ | _X_ | _X_ | _X_ | Leyline of Anticipation
Here are things I would like to see changed:
Discard Rule: Normalize the discard rule across all CBs, which will allow a few of the cards to be taken off their respective banned lists (Mesmeric Fiend, Unmask). In addition, the existence of Tidehollow Sculler makes me question why Mesmeric Fiend is still on the banned list.
Banned List - General: Cards banned in 3CB, 4CB, & 5CB but not 2CB should be banned in ABT (Magus of the Moon, Show and Tell). This has already been done with some of the cards. Ghost Quarter, Strip Mine, Wasteland do not appear on the 2CB banned list but are banned in ABT.
XCB Repository: Integrate the different banned lists into a single list, starting with ABT list of cards, then note any additional banned cards in the various formats below, without having to list the same card five different times in five different lists.
XCB Repository: Condense the thread to only include relevant posts for easier reference. Mogg did a good job with compiling information, but it would be nice to have all of that on a single page.
Balance: Unban in ABT. Keep Balance banned in 3CB. Mogg already covered the reasons in his post.
Chancellor of the Annex: Ban in ABT. Mogg already covered the reasons in his post.
I limited the bans to ones that existed when the format was last played, unless a ban was clearly warranted, so Laboratory Maniac is listed as banned in 4CB but Vampire Hexmage isn't (Karn was removed from the banned list). Hexmage probably should be banned in 4CB, but The Rack doesn't need to be banned in 5CB; bans warrant discussion.
The individual lists stayed, because I think those may be easier to read if someone's just looking for information on a particular format. I may reorganize those lists later to make them more similar to the summary list (edit: done).
There may be some merit to leaving the discard rule open-ended, because other versions have been interesting in the past. The current rules prescribes a default, and that's probably enough.
I believe Feyd_Ruin does intend to condense the thread at some point, but multiple posts are still necessary, because there's a cap of 75,000 characters per post.
BWTeysa, Orzhov Scion
GWRhys the Redeemed
GUKruphix, God of Horizons
GRXenagos, God of Revels
GThrun, the Last Troll
GStompy
While we are on the discussion of banned lists, we might as well work on all of them. We did play 3CB and 4CB normally during the first month of the ABT.
Yeah, I had the Excel formatting from when I did the round results, so I was able to do it faster.
My thoughts on other bans:
Chancellor of the Annex: Ban in all formats.
Flash: Ban in all formats. Worldspine Wurm makes Flash much better than it used to be.
Magus of the Moon: Ban in ABT. Magus has a warping effect on formats where it's relevant and sees no play at all in formats where it isn't.
Vampire Hexmage: Ban in 4CB. In 3CB, it's just a one-threat deck, and 5CB has shown itself capable of handling Hexmage. However, the combination of Hexmage-Depths and one additional piece of removal is potent.
BWTeysa, Orzhov Scion
GWRhys the Redeemed
GUKruphix, God of Horizons
GRXenagos, God of Revels
GThrun, the Last Troll
GStompy
Chancellor, for example, should be banned where there's no land rule, but it's a fair card with a land rule.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
I agree with this sentiment, but that would be 3 lists to keep up with.
Two already causes some occasional "I forgot" :/
The main reason I do a perm ban list is because I don't like always having to list 8+ cards on every round, nor having to go back and forth on LR rounds vs NLR rounds. I would forget to add some of them on sometimes. I often already miss things I should have known to ban. Doing so on things like Leyline of Anticipation on a NLR round would be horrible - specifically because many would just assume it's still banned.
Two lists stops more confusion and awfulness then it causes.
I fear three lists will push it too close to what we're trying to avoid.
I agree wholeheartedly that Chancellor is fine in a LR round. But how often would it actually be ran? The same with Trinisphere, etc.
I'm ok with them banned in rounds they're not overpowered because they then become extremely narrow and unused 99% of the time.
All that said, I'm always open to discussion on the ban list and anything else.
I put the work into XCB for all of us to have fun, so it's important to make sure we're having fun.
It's never a "Feyd says, so that's the way it is"
That's unfun.
No longer staff here.
I think Chancellor could be decent. It slows down your opponent by a turn and then is an eventual win condition, as you don't need to devote any other cards to being able to cast it.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
as for balance, im one of the votes to keep it banned and im not really convinced anymore. i think the best argument is that you cant even cast it until turn 3. thats a lot of hoops to go through.
im not in charge obviously, but i say we swap them on the banlist.
Normally in Magic, there can exist sequences of actions which can be repeated an indefinite number of times. When that happens, a player demonstrates the sequence, then specifies a number of times to enact that sequence, and then the game continues.
In XCB, combos that can generate an indefinite number of turns - such as Time Vault / Voltaic Key - behave very much like the sequences of actions described above; unlike in other formats, information isn't added between turns via the draw step.
With that in mind, I wonder whether the XCB rules should change to treat a sequence that could be repeated an indefinite number of times over the course of many turns in the same manner as a sequence that could be repeated an indefinite number of times over the course of one turn. i.e., Vault / Key would no longer be able to cause the game to end in a draw by taking infinite turns. Rather, the Vault player would take some number of extra turns, then pass.
Thoughts?
BWTeysa, Orzhov Scion
GWRhys the Redeemed
GUKruphix, God of Horizons
GRXenagos, God of Revels
GThrun, the Last Troll
GStompy
Once they've drawn their deck, no, I don't think so.