This is the results for round 2.16 and the start for round 2.17.
Round 2.16
This round was Leyline Week.
In addition to your normal submission, you got a leylines of your choice.
The Entries
01 Feyd_Ruin :: If you build it, the counters will come… Abjure / White Sun's Zenith / Leyline of Singularity I thought of abjure as soon as the round was mentioned. The kill took some thought. I considered Reach of Branches again, for comic value, but.. Nah….
02 Error1 :: Odd Mana Control Dance of Many / Leonin Relic-Warder / Leyline of the Meek Relic-Warder was great. Dance was an interesting creature-stealer, especially mixed with the Leyline which made your dance beat his counterpart. Very inventive and outside of the box.
03 Draco9 :: I'm Sorry Ms. Jackson, FUS RO DAH! Exploration / Dragonmaster Outcast / Leyline of Sanctity Dragonmaster could be a very interesting win con, but would probably be served best in a normal round. With Leylines of Singularity sure to see significant play this round, you were often stuck with a 1/1.
04 TANE :: Almost Transcending Transcendence / Invisible Stalker / Leyline of Punishment The Transcendence/Leyline was awesomesauce, but a bit slow. If you had a little accel, you could have done much better, but Stalker's hexproof was also vital.
05 Reyemile :: The Not-So-Hunted Horror Hunted Horror / Vindicate / Leyline of Singularity It is important to note that against a mirrored Leyline of Singularity, the person on the Draw chooses whether or not one is on the field. You sometimes had to hold yours in hand for a 6th turn Leyline+Horror.
06 Personman :: Antisocial Behavior Ensnaring Bridge / Helix Pinnacle / Leyline of Sanctity I love the lack of interaction your deck had. Your bridge proved to be slightly better than fnord's Sanctuary, but the round saw enough removal to keep the bridge/leyline from protecting you enough.
07 VikingMetal4L :: Karnifornication Ensnaring Bridge / Karn Liberated / Leyline of Sanctity A decent round for karn, but not his best showing. I'm not sold on bridge backup. It garnered you a couple of wins, but Gaea's Touch may still have been better.
08 Catmurderer :: Great Minds… Abjure / Celestial Colonnade / Leyline of Singularity Your wincon was what kept you down a bit. I had a hard time deciding on what to kill with, as I'm sure you did too. I'm sure there's something out there that would have made us at least nearly win. Still haven't found it though.
10 benbuzz790 :: Devil's Playground Esper Charm / Devil's play / Leyline of Singularity I like the use of Esper Charm here. The devil's play use is interesting. Beacon may have faired better, but you thought outside of the box, and that counts a lot for me.
11 DragonDart :: I almost forgot to enter my own special >_< Beacon of Destruction / Orim's Thunder / Leyline of Sanctity Straight forward and to the point. Orim's thunder was nice. If you had thought of Esper Charm, you may have done even better.
12 fnord :: The Double Helix of Control Helix Pinnacle / Island Sanctuary / Leyline of Sanctity As with Personman, the lack of interactions was epic. If helix had been faster, the points would have been a lot higher.
There were 12 players with 66 matches and 132 total games.
14 hands ended in a draw. 8 matches had at least one draw.
That's 11% of all games, averaging 1.2 games per player.
The following player(s) had the most drawn games, with 10 total draws: VikingMetal4L
4 matches were a 3-3 split.
That's 6% of all matches, averaging 0.7 matches per player.
The following player(s) had the most split matches, with 2 total splits: Draco9 : Catmurderer
54 matches were a 6-0 sweep.
That's 82% of all matches, averaging 4.5 matches per player.
The following player(s) had the most 6-0 match sweeps, at 9 total sweeps: Reyemile
There were 25 unique cards submitted, out of 36 total.
3 cards were repeated, not counting Leylines:
Next Round will be 'Niche Week'.
Entries are due Saturday Night at Midnight.
Niche Week
In addition to the normal vintage-legal card pool, there is a custom-created set of Niche cards to choose from.
Due to the diversity and size of the card pool this round, you will be required to use a niche card - and only one.
Your deck will be exactly: 1 Niche Card / 1 Vintage-Legal Non-Niche Card
You may view the entire list of niche cards HERE, a few posts down.
Resources
Basic 2CB Rules
0. Overview
Two Card Blind (2CB) is a weekly Magic tournament, run entirely within this forum. To compete, players submit two-card decks which are played against each other. Scoring assumes optimal play, without randomness or concealed information.
1. Game Rules
1.1. Except for the changes described in these rules, games follow the rules of Magic.
1.2. Players' decks contain exactly two cards, which begin the game in hand. Players do not mulligan or sideboard.
1.3. Players' libraries begin the game empty. A player does not lose the game as a result of being unable to draw a card.
1.4. Each player owns an infinite supply of Basic Lands of each type outside the game. These may be played as if they were in his or her hand.
1.4b. You may play only one land from your hand in addition to only one land from outside the game during your turn; however, continuous effects may increase these numbers (if a card states that you may play an additional land this turn, you may play one from your hand, one from outside the game and one from either your hand or outside the game).
1.4b'. Playing lands from your hand will make you a better person. Officially.
1.5. A random effect produces the result that least benefits the owner of the source of the effect.
1.6. Each player plays two games (one match) against each other player.
1.6a. Each player is the starting player once per match.
1.6b. If no player can win, the game is a draw.
1.6c. Games are played with perfect information.
1.6d. Games are played optimally; players attempt to win, draw, or extend the game – in that order.
2. Tournament Rules
2.1. Players submit their decks to the 2CB moderator.
2.1a. A player may submit multiple decks, but only the most recent deck is counted.
2.1b. An illegal deck is not counted. The removal of an illegal deck does not affect deck distribution (see Rule 2.4).
2.1b'. If an illegal deck is submitted, the deck may be editted at the moderator's discretion (i.e.: If a deck is submitted with a banned card, but can still be considered a legal deck--such as being able to win against a goldfish deck--without that card, the deck may still be included, but without the offending card).
2.1c. The moderator determines the result of each match. Players may challenge results, but not after the results of the first round belonging to a new month have been posted (see Rule 2.5a).
2.1d. A player may name his or her deck. If a player does not, the moderator may name it.
2.2. Decks are subject to some restrictions.
2.2a. A player may not submit a deck that can – against any deck – force any card in an opponent's hand to change zones or Win the Game before an opponent's second turn.
2.2b. A player may not submit a deck that can't win both games of a match against at least one deck satisfying 2.2a and 2.2c.
2.2c. A deck may include any number of any card legal in Vintage (Type 1), with the exception of the following banned cards:
2.2d. A deck may include any number of any card that will become legal in Vintage upon release of a set that has been revealed fully and officially since the start of the round.
2.3. Points determine tournament standings.
2.3a. Players are ranked – first to last – in order of decreasing number of points.
2.3b. For each match, a player earns 3 points per game win and 1 point per drawn game. However, a player earns only 2 points for a split match (one win, one loss).
2.3c. A table of match results is posted each round. Its rows represent players and its columns represent opponents. Match results reflect the combined result of both games played in a match; 6 is a match win, 2 a drawn or split game, and 1 or 4 a draw/loss or draw/win respectively. A player's points are listed at the end of his or her row.
2.5. The player with the most PotM points over the course of a month is the Player of the Month.
2.5a. A month includes all rounds for which decks are due during that month.
2.5b. Each round, each player receives PotM points equal to their average match result for that round, rounded down to 1 decimal place. For example, a player scoring 6-6-6-6-X-0-0-0 in a round with 8 decks receives 3.4 points (24/7).
2.5c. Each week, .5 PotM points will be given to the deck deemed most creative and original.
2.5d. Each week, after the grid is posted, the first player to able to post a deck that can successfully go 6-0 over every deck in the grid will also receive 1 PotM point.
Rules question: The lands from outside the game are treated like cards, not tokens, right? They can move to other zones?
Private Mod Note
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Some facts of magic:
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
Also, as far as the counterspell bannings / rule changes / land rule compromise discussion that was going on in the last thread... I'm of the mind that we have a really healthy meta right now, and it would be good to just wait and not change anything for a while. If things stagnate, change it up!
Private Mod Note
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Some facts of magic:
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
It is important to note that some of these cards do not work in normal magic. Here in 2CB, we have a moderator who can keep track of everything, and players always play with perfect information. As such, we are able to do things that you can not normally do in magic. Some of these cards reflect this difference, and are thus able to work accordingly.
Cards will work as they are obviously intended to, even if new wording is required.
WHITE
Mind TitheW
Sorcery
Target opponent reveals his or her hand. Choose a nonland card revealed this way. That card's printed mana cost permanently increases by 3.
(This effect lasts until end of game - even if the affected card changes zones.)
Overbalance1WW
Sorcery
Choose one - Each player sacrifices all lands they control; Each player sacrifices all creatures they control; or Each player discards their hand.
Shaladi, Blind Titan3WWW
Legendary Creature - Giant Soldier
Protection from spells.
At the beginning of your upkeep, if Shaladi is in your hand and you control no creatures, you may put a 2/2 white soldier creature token onto the battlefield.
6/6
White Sun's Dawn1W
Instant
The next time a source of your choice would deal damage to you this turn, prevent half of that damage, rounded up.
Shuffle White Sun's Dawn into its owner's library.
BLUE
Blue Sun's DawnU
Sorcery
Return target instand or sorcery card from your graveyard to your hand.
Shuffle Blue Sun's Dawn into its owner's library.
Fraalsh, Blind Titan3UUU
Legendary Creature - Giant Wizard
Fraalsh, Blind Titan is unblockable.
As long as Fraalsh is in your hand, artifacts, creatures, and lands your opponents control enter the battlefield tapped.
6/6
Keiga's Touch4UUU
Sorcery
Gain control of all creatures and all lands.
Theft of the Magi2UU
Instant
Gain control and ownership of target noncreature spell. You may choose new targets for that spell.
(A permanent spell will enter the battlefield under your control. If that card goes to a graveyard, hand, or library this game, it will go to yours. This effect lasts until end of game.)
BLACK
Black Sun's Dawn2B
Sorcery
Target player sacrifices a creature.
Shuffle Black sun's Dawn into its owner's library.
Lich's GiftBB
Enchantment
Pay 3 life: Until end of turn, you can't lose life.
Trizzon, Blind Titan3BBB
Legendary Creature - Giant Vampire
Flying
At the beginning of your upkeep, if Trizzon is in your hand, each opponent loses 1 life and you gain 1 life.
6/6
Undying SpiritBB
Creature - Spirit
Whenever Undying Spirit would leave the battlefield, it instead doesn't.
(Creatures with toughness less then 1 stay tapped. You can't sacrifice Undying Spirit.)
2/2
RED
Bearer of the Orb2RR
Creature - Human Wizard
Players can't untap more than two permanents during their untap steps. RR: Bearer of the Orb fights target creature.
4/4
Gralka, Blind Titan3RRR
Legendary Creature - Giant Barbarian
Haste
As long as Gralka is in your hand, creatures you control have double strike.
6/6
Rage ElementalRR
Creature - Elemental
Whenever an opponent is dealt damage, you may put that many +1/+1 counters on Rage Elemental.
1/1
Red Sun's Dawn1R
Instant
Red Sun's Dawn deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
Shuffle Red Sun's Dawn into its owner's library.
GREEN
Crystoderm2GGG
Creature - Beast
Crystoderm can't be countered and is indestructible.
Hexproof
Crystoderm can't be blocked except by three or more creatures.
6/5
Green Sun's Dawn2G
Sorcery
Put a 3/3 green beast creature token onto the battlefield.
Shuffle Green Sun's Dawn into its owner's library.
Patyxia, Blind Titan3GGG
Legendary Creature - Giant Shaman
Patyxia, Blind Titan is indestructible.
At the beginning of your upkeep, if Patyxia has remained in your hand for your past 50 turns, you win the game.
6/6
Weather the StormG
Enchantment
You, spells you control, and permanents you control have shroud.
Effects you don't control can't cause you to discard cards or sacrifice permanents.
GOLD
AEther Swell2GU
Sorcery
Each player may exile a card from his or her hand. As long as a card remains exiled this way, it's owner may cast it without paying it's mana cost.
Divine FractureRW 1, Sacrifice a land: Divine Fracture deals 1 damage to target creature or player. You gain 1 life.
Druade, Soul Extractor1UB
Legendary Creature - Vampire Wizard
Hexproof, lifelink
Whenever Druade, Soul Extractor attacks, defending player may exile a card from his or her graveyard. If he or she doesn't, Druade is unblockable this turn.
3/1
Loxodon Arbiter1GW
Creature - Elephant Cleric
Player can't cast spells that share a name with a spell they have already cast this game.
4/4
Planespark UltimatumWUBRG
Sorcery
If you paid Planespark Ultimatum's mana cost, you win the game.
Pride of the Immortal1WB
Enchantment
If a creature would deal 2 or more damage to you, you lose 1 life and sacrifice a permanent instead.
Savage AwakeningRG
Enchantment Landfall - Whenever a land enters the battlefield under your control, it becomes a 3/1 red and green Elemental creature with haste until end of turn.
Sharazi ReplicatorRU
Creature - Shapeshifter
At the beginning of your upkeep, put a token that's a copy of Sharazi Replicator onto the battlefield
1/1
Tolarian NegotiatorWU
Creature - Human Wizard
Other creatures lose all abilities.
Activated abilities can't be activated unless they're mana abilities.
2/3
Voidshell Behemoth3GGBB
Creature - Giant Horror
You may have Voidshell Behemoth deal combat damage to defending player as though it weren't blocked.
When Voidshell Behemoth enters the battlefield, exile all cards from target player's hand, graveyard, and library.
8/8
Wrath of BolasXRB
Sorcery
Wrath of Bolas deals X damage to target player. That player sacrifices X permanents.
ARTIFACTS
Bladesing, Sword of Akroma3
Legendary Artifact - Equipment
Equip - 2
Equipped creature gets +6/+6 and has flying, first strike, vigilance, trample, haste, and protection from black and from red.
Maelstrom Pendant1
Artifact X, T: You may reveal a creature card from your hand with converted mana cost X or less. If you do, put a token that's a copy of that creature onto the battlefield. That token gains haste. Sacrifice it at the beginning of the next end step.
Paper Wall1
Artifact Creature - Wall
Defender
Paper Wall can block any number of creatures each combat.
Whenever Paper Wall is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, if it was dealt combat damage this turn, return it to its owner's hand.
0/1
Rock-Laden Juggernaught2
Artifact Creature - Juggernaught
Rock-Laden Juggernaught attacks each turn if able.
Whenever Rock-Laden Juggernaught becomes blocked, sacrifice it.
5/4
Scissorling3
Artifact Creature - Horror
Scissorling can't block.
Each other creature gets -3/-1
Whenever a creature deals combat damage to you, sacrifice Scissorling.
3/1
Vyranohai, Blind Giant6
Legendary Artifact Creature - Giant Golem
Annihilator 1
If you would lose the game and Vyronahai is in your hand, instead exile Vyranohai and all lands you control. Shuffle your hand, your graveyard, and all permanents you own into your library, then draw seven cards and your life total becomes 20.
6/6
LAND
Land of Lost Idols
Land
T: Add 1 to your mana pool. X1: Land of Lost Idols becomes an X/X chimera artifact creature until end of turn.
Lotus Garden
Land
T: Add two mana in any combination of colors to your mana pool.
Mishra's Warehouse
Land
T: Add 6 to your mana pool. You can't spend this mana to cast spells.
Vizzia, Cradle of Life
Land
T: Add 1 to your mana pool.
T: You gain 3 life.
I know sometimes niches don't require you to use a niche card, but I think the card pool is large enough (40) and diverse enough to do so this time.
So, in order to have some fun with it, everyone has to use one (and only one).
Specifically, your deck is exactly:
1 Niche Card / 1 Normal Card.
I tried to make them interesting.
Most are high powered, but I don't think any specific one is overpowered compared to the rest.
And since they're half your deck, they better be good, heh.
Edit Note - Singularity v Singularity matchups:
You will sometimes lose on your play but win on your draw (which is backwards for normal 3-3s).
Edit 2:
My next week's noncheat: The Satyr's draconian insults.
(does anyone even care that I do this or not?)
(does anyone even know what this is? heh...?)
Edit 3:
Now with poll.
I forgot to check who's gift got the points last round, but i'll update it all before month's end.
As the moderator, it would have been nice when you thought of Abjure right when you saw the format I chose, you mentioned the no-drawback 1cc counterspell instead of just running it in your own deck. This is the reason I wish we could agree on some blanket rule for counters...
My results look too good to be true; if I screwed them up I apologize, but if not, I think I win.
Correction: 6-0 vs. deck 01
On play: I don't play Leyline, Opponent doesn't play Leyline (if he plays his leyline, Leyline, I Vindicate his Leyline turn 3 and don't care whether it's countered, play my Leyline, and win with my 7/7 dude versus his 2/2 cat.)
My turn 2: Horror
His turn 2: Attack (me: 14)
My turn 3: Attack (him: 13)
His turn 3: Attack (me: 8)
My turn 4: Leyline, attack (him 6)
Him: lose
OR his turn 2: nothing
My turn 3: Attack, he blocks (Him: 19). Vindicate a land.
His turn 3: Attack (Me: 14)
My turn 4: Leyline of Singularity, Attack (him 12)
His turn 4: nothing
I attack twice more before he does anything
Draw: Opponent plays Leyline (if he doesn't, I play my Leyline and turn 2 Horror, turn 3 Vindicate a land crushes him.)
Turn 3: kill opponent's leyline w/Vindicate
Turn 4: Leyline
Turn 5: Horror races his single cat.
Clarification: My deck vs #1 is 4-1 ; on the play, Mayor comes before the Abjure (and either mad tokens > mad tokens that are slower, or 3/3 and two 2/2's > one 2/2), on the DRAW I don't ever cast it if Leyline is in play, in which case Vhitu-Ghazi can hold off the one Cat token WSZ can make without legend-ruling them away indefinitely.
I actually 6-0 deck 7. I was thinking it could play Karn faster than it actually can, but I can vindicate Bridge and kill on turn 5 before Karn hits the table.
P.S. Karn-as-only-win decks should NOT be legal.
Edit: I forgot Esper Charm has a Discard mode, so I lose on the Play to deck 10 because he I can't stick Leyline before I discard my hand.
Haha, my matchup with Viking is cool. Game stalls because of infinite restarts. 10 vs. 11 isn't up, but I'm pretty sure he just wins, since Beacon is a bit faster than Devil's play.
Feyd, I think I beat you.
If I'm on the play, I do not drop a leyline.
1) You do, so that you can counter my esper charm to protect your cats. Then I hardcast my leyline on turn 4. You make a cat on turn 4, which would kill me on turn 14, but Devil's play can get there on turn 12.
2) You do not, so that when I play esper charm on turn 3, you can discard two non-wsz cards. On turn 4 I cast my leyline, and we follow the same play line as in 1.
On the draw,
3) You play your leyline, I do not play mine. On turn 3, I cast esper charm, and hit abjure (either because you counter it or let it resolve), but WSZ is safely in your library. Then I cast my leyline, and we proceed as in 1.
4) You do not play your leyline, I do play mine. On turn 3, I cast esper charm, and hit abjure and Leyline. goto 1.
6-0.
I know I can beat Reyemile too, I worked out that match ahead of time, lol. We stall at least! I thought that the leylines came into play simultaneously and therefore would always either be destroyed or stuck in hand. Anyway...
On the draw - I decide we are not going to have a leyline in play. I make him discard his before he can play it, or destroy it in response to Horror. My tokens and RSZ are faster than his Horror.
2-2
I'm with Reyemile on Karn too. And not just because we stalled, haha.
Some facts of magic:
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
Me too tane! I built my deck with that one in mind! I thought karakas + leyline would be every other deck!
Private Mod Note
():
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Some facts of magic:
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
Interestingly, if Error1 had swapped his Leyline for Leyline of Vitality, he would have had an infinite life combo. Although I'm not sure if that would actually have won him any matches.
Reyemile: I missed you vindicating a land to keep me off enough tokens. You do win both, but a little differently. A 2nd turn Horror and 3rd turn Vindicate leaves you with BBW mana, and Leyline need UU. So you actually vindicate 5th turn, which keeps me 1 token shy of winning.
Reyemile: Yes. They're supposed to always be multiple selections, I just messed up a couple previous polls. That way, each person selects a couple of their favorites, and we can get a real census for the most creative.
WhammWhamme: Missed the nocast infiblockers.
Reyemile: I agree with karn not being a wincon. It has been held as acceptable with all past blinds, however, so I've just followed suit.
Benbuzz790: I don't know why I missed you harcasting your Leyline. You win both. Note, though, that Devil's Play wins turn 13. (XR, XRRR. 11th for 10, 13th for 10.)
Tane: Yes, White Sun's Dawn is an instant. Oops.
Will finish the grid and update corrections in the morning.
As the moderator, it would have been nice when you thought of Abjure right when you saw the format I chose, you mentioned the no-drawback 1cc counterspell instead of just running it in your own deck. This is the reason I wish we could agree on some blanket rule for counters...
Why should the mod be at a disadvantage relative to everyone else? Half of this game is thinking of cool/unusual cards that other people don't think of.
If a mod creates a format with a specific broken card in mind that they think other people won't think of, that's a problem. But it's not what happened here at all.
Quote from Reyemile »
P.S. Karn-as-only-win decks should NOT be legal.
P.P.S Yes they should.
More seriously, why shouldn't they? They adhere to the rules, and they have the built-in weakness of drawing with other Karn decks. If you think the card is too powerful (it's not) you could propose a ban, but I see no philosophical problem with the win condition.
Finally, my results:
00660x006003
vs 01
0-6, Abjure
vs 02
0-6, Relic Warder
vs 03
6-0, Bridge does it's thing
vs 04
6-0, I don't care a lot that you can't take damage.
vs 05
0-6, Vindicate
vs 06
This is me.
vs 07
0-6, I should have thought of that. Shroud doesn't help a lot when I lose to Vindicate on Bridge anyway. He takes my lands and restarts the game until he can start with Karn and get Pinnacle out of my hand (since Karn always goes first in the restarted game).
...why shouldn't they? They adhere to the rules...
They do?
*reads*
They do.
Guess I was thinking of one of the other Blind formats. Thanks to the non-standardization of blinds, Karn-as-only-win is illegal in SOME of them, since the deck never wins a goldfish.
Why should the mod be at a disadvantage relative to everyone else? Half of this game is thinking of cool/unusual cards that other people don't think of.
If a mod creates a format with a specific broken card in mind that they think other people won't think of, that's a problem. But it's not what happened here at all.
The mod shouldn't be at a disadvantage, you're right.
I'm not annoyed so much by his submission, but that he says he immediately thought of Abjure, and didn't mention it, even though my clear intent in banning Force of Will was to ban counterspells enabled by leylines. But you're right, I can't really blame him for that. It's my fault.
But this is exactly why a blanket counterspell rule would be extremely beneficial if it could be formatted in any way to be functional within the rules. It just plain SUCKS to spend any time at all thinking about a deck for a special week (or a specialty week itself for that matter), only to flat-out lose to someone who realized an obscure counterspell interacts with the special week in a way that allows them to counter something on turn 1 or turn 2.
I just hate that 1cc counter + bad threat = really high scoring deck this week, because I didn't have time to scour through all counterspells ever to determine all the ones that would be degenerate within the format.
It's not the first time it's happened, and it won't be the last, and it leaves a really bitter taste in my mouth every time it does.
In short, my mind has been changed. I don't think just the banned list is working for counterspells as well as it ought to. We shouldn't have weeks dominated by counterspells because the mod didn't find all the possible sounterspells that week that could be cheaper than people are used to dealing with in normal weeks.
Sorry I messed up, everyone.
Karn decks can't beat a goldfish. That's... problematic.
How is that in any way problematic? You never HAVE to beat a goldfish... it's a nonissue.
DragonDart: I guess I just like counterspells more than you do, since it doesn't have such a negative impact on me, but I do see where you're coming from.
Still, Abjure is a lot less oppressive than FoW, and good decks exist that make it a dead card -- if we ran this week again, I'm not convinced it would be amazing. And it didn't even win this week!
WhammWhamme: Can you give an example of a problem that it creates?
DragonDart: I guess I just like counterspells more than you do, since it doesn't have such a negative impact on me, but I do see where you're coming from.
Still, Abjure is a lot less oppressive than FoW, and good decks exist that make it a dead card -- if we ran this week again, I'm not convinced it would be amazing. And it didn't even win this week!
WhammWhamme: Can you give an example of a problem that it creates?
Karn?
Well, it sets the precedent of it being legal to enter a deck that can't win.
How exactly does restarting the game work in 2CB? According to 714.2 in the CR, each player's lands, as they were played from outside the game, are part of each player's deck in the restarted game. I see two possibilities:
1. The 2CB rules apply to the restarted game. This means that each player starts the game with all cards in hand (other than the ones Karn exiled). But this also means that Karn is illegal, as the Karn player can — against at least one deck — exile enough lands prior to restarting to force a card in the opponent's hand to change zones before his or her second turn.
2. The normal rules apply. Each player begins the restarted game with all non-exiled cards in their library, then draws 7 and may mulligan. Because of the randomness rule, the player who didn't restart the game gets to choose the order of the cards in the libraries.
Well, it sets the precedent of it being legal to enter a deck that can't win.
It does absolutely no such thing. The rules are very explicit about the requirements with respect to being able to win, and they are that you must be able to beat at least one other legal deck. That's how it's always been; there's no such thing as "setting precedent" in 2CB.
That said...
Quote from fnord »
[some very good points]
2.2a. A player may not submit a deck that can – against any deck – force any card in an opponent's hand to change zones or Win the Game before an opponent's second turn.
I think it's clear that the 2CB rules apply; using Karn's ult in a Commander game doesn't suddenly make you start at 20 life with no Commander.
Given that, I think it's ambiguous whether he's legal or not. If we interpret "before an opponent's second turn" as "before an opponent's second turn of any game", then he's clearly illegal (which is a pretty major & unfortunate oversight that affects several past rounds). If we instead interpret it as "before an opponent has taken two turns in a half-match", he's fine.
Looking at it from the perspective of the spirit of the rule, I (weakly) think he should be okay -- he definitely doesn't stop you from playing 2CC cards that shut him down. However, I do think that a literalist reading of the rules is more likely to come down in favor of the "before an opponent's second turn of any game" reading (though it's by no means clear cut).
So, I dunno what to say, really. I definitely don't think he's brokenly powerful, and I personally like him, so I would vote to modify the rules to allow him in the future, and I guess I think we should err on the side of acceptance when people submit ambiguously legal decks? But this is all rather iffy. What do other people think?
Rule 2.2b is standard across all XCBs, and is the rule that makes Karn technically legal.
2.2b. A player may not submit a deck that can't win both games of a match against at least one deck satisfying 2.2a and 2.2c.
I have never liked the exact wording and legality of this rule, and have proposed changes to it in the past (other XCB long while back). It isn't that playing a bad deck is bad, it's what it allows.
Specifically, you could easily design a deck to cause an unfair points differential against a specific deck or archetype to hate them out of winning. By making a deck that beats one thing specifically and loses to everything else in an over-the-top way, you're purposefully skewing the results rather then competing.
Example: If "Show and Tell/Emrakul" became a more popular deck, then someone could legally submit Gainsay / Planeswalker's Fury to hate that deck out and lose to everything else.
All that said, I don't have a major problem with karn.
I just consider all such things to be fundamentally illegal, even if they technically are legal.
I believe all decks should have to beat a goldfish.
They are not currently, and never have been, held to such a standard though.
....except in backbuild, of all things
EDITS:
Dragondart :
I apologize if it offended you that I didn't mention Abjure.
I knew it wouldn't win (I accurately predicted my own 4 point spread)
Your deck even beat through it (but my cats outraced your beacon).
Please remember, though, that I'm at a full 6-7 day disadvantage of thinking up my deck.
Even with the niche cards that I worked on, I didn't come up with my deck until after I had posted them.
So sometimes I have to keep the little things to myself, so long as I don't think they're too overpowered (and I apologized for the foil that was).
I think VikingMetal4L vs TANE is one of the funniest matchups of the round.
Sure, Karn... make me exile my Transcendence and then restart the game.
I'm ok with that
Grid Finished; current corrections updated.
Reyemile does infact win this round. Huzzahs to him!
This is the results for round 2.16 and the start for round 2.17.
Round 2.16Next Round : 2.17 Resources
No longer staff here.
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
More facts of magic
This is the basis of the following delightful backbuild deck:
Worldpurge
Battle of Wits
Also, as far as the counterspell bannings / rule changes / land rule compromise discussion that was going on in the last thread... I'm of the mind that we have a really healthy meta right now, and it would be good to just wait and not change anything for a while. If things stagnate, change it up!
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
More facts of magic
It is important to note that some of these cards do not work in normal magic. Here in 2CB, we have a moderator who can keep track of everything, and players always play with perfect information. As such, we are able to do things that you can not normally do in magic. Some of these cards reflect this difference, and are thus able to work accordingly.
Cards will work as they are obviously intended to, even if new wording is required.
WHITEBLUEBLACKREDGREENGOLDARTIFACTSLAND
No longer staff here.
grid needs finishing.
next round is niche week.
card list above.
I know sometimes niches don't require you to use a niche card, but I think the card pool is large enough (40) and diverse enough to do so this time.
So, in order to have some fun with it, everyone has to use one (and only one).
Specifically, your deck is exactly:
1 Niche Card / 1 Normal Card.
I tried to make them interesting.
Most are high powered, but I don't think any specific one is overpowered compared to the rest.
And since they're half your deck, they better be good, heh.
Edit Note - Singularity v Singularity matchups:
You will sometimes lose on your play but win on your draw (which is backwards for normal 3-3s).
Edit 2:
My next week's noncheat: The Satyr's draconian insults.
(does anyone even care that I do this or not?)
(does anyone even know what this is? heh...?)
Edit 3:
Now with poll.
I forgot to check who's gift got the points last round, but i'll update it all before month's end.
No longer staff here.
My results look too good to be true; if I screwed them up I apologize, but if not, I think I win.
Correction: 6-0 vs. deck 01
On play: I don't play Leyline, Opponent doesn't play Leyline (if he plays his leyline, Leyline, I Vindicate his Leyline turn 3 and don't care whether it's countered, play my Leyline, and win with my 7/7 dude versus his 2/2 cat.)
My turn 2: Horror
His turn 2: Attack (me: 14)
My turn 3: Attack (him: 13)
His turn 3: Attack (me: 8)
My turn 4: Leyline, attack (him 6)
Him: lose
OR his turn 2: nothing
My turn 3: Attack, he blocks (Him: 19). Vindicate a land.
His turn 3: Attack (Me: 14)
My turn 4: Leyline of Singularity, Attack (him 12)
His turn 4: nothing
I attack twice more before he does anything
Draw: Opponent plays Leyline (if he doesn't, I play my Leyline and turn 2 Horror, turn 3 Vindicate a land crushes him.)
Turn 3: kill opponent's leyline w/Vindicate
Turn 4: Leyline
Turn 5: Horror races his single cat.
The poll, as it stands, allows us to select more than one deck; is that intentional?
So.
9 | 4 6 0 6 0 0 0 6 X 6 6 0 | 34 |
5 | 6 2 6 6 X 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 | 62 | 5.65 | 6 2 6 6 X 6 6 6 6 3 6 6 | 58 | 5.3
I actually 6-0 deck 7. I was thinking it could play Karn faster than it actually can, but I can vindicate Bridge and kill on turn 5 before Karn hits the table.
P.S. Karn-as-only-win decks should NOT be legal.
Edit: I forgot Esper Charm has a Discard mode, so I lose on the Play to deck 10 because he I can't stick Leyline before I discard my hand.
Feyd, I think I beat you.
If I'm on the play, I do not drop a leyline.
1) You do, so that you can counter my esper charm to protect your cats. Then I hardcast my leyline on turn 4. You make a cat on turn 4, which would kill me on turn 14, but Devil's play can get there on turn 12.
2) You do not, so that when I play esper charm on turn 3, you can discard two non-wsz cards. On turn 4 I cast my leyline, and we follow the same play line as in 1.
On the draw,
3) You play your leyline, I do not play mine. On turn 3, I cast esper charm, and hit abjure (either because you counter it or let it resolve), but WSZ is safely in your library. Then I cast my leyline, and we proceed as in 1.
4) You do not play your leyline, I do play mine. On turn 3, I cast esper charm, and hit abjure and Leyline. goto 1.
6-0.
I know I can beat Reyemile too, I worked out that match ahead of time, lol. We stall at least! I thought that the leylines came into play simultaneously and therefore would always either be destroyed or stuck in hand. Anyway...
On the draw - I decide we are not going to have a leyline in play. I make him discard his before he can play it, or destroy it in response to Horror. My tokens and RSZ are faster than his Horror.
2-2
I'm with Reyemile on Karn too. And not just because we stalled, haha.
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
More facts of magic
also, is White Sun's Dawn intended to be an instant?
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
More facts of magic
Reyemile: Yes. They're supposed to always be multiple selections, I just messed up a couple previous polls. That way, each person selects a couple of their favorites, and we can get a real census for the most creative.
WhammWhamme: Missed the nocast infiblockers.
Reyemile: I agree with karn not being a wincon. It has been held as acceptable with all past blinds, however, so I've just followed suit.
Benbuzz790: I don't know why I missed you harcasting your Leyline. You win both. Note, though, that Devil's Play wins turn 13. (XR, XRRR. 11th for 10, 13th for 10.)
Tane: Yes, White Sun's Dawn is an instant. Oops.
Will finish the grid and update corrections in the morning.
No longer staff here.
Why should the mod be at a disadvantage relative to everyone else? Half of this game is thinking of cool/unusual cards that other people don't think of.
If a mod creates a format with a specific broken card in mind that they think other people won't think of, that's a problem. But it's not what happened here at all.
P.P.S Yes they should.
More seriously, why shouldn't they? They adhere to the rules, and they have the built-in weakness of drawing with other Karn decks. If you think the card is too powerful (it's not) you could propose a ban, but I see no philosophical problem with the win condition.
Finally, my results:
00660x006003
0-6, Abjure
vs 02
0-6, Relic Warder
vs 03
6-0, Bridge does it's thing
vs 04
6-0, I don't care a lot that you can't take damage.
vs 05
0-6, Vindicate
vs 06
This is me.
vs 07
0-6, I should have thought of that. Shroud doesn't help a lot when I lose to Vindicate on Bridge anyway. He takes my lands and restarts the game until he can start with Karn and get Pinnacle out of my hand (since Karn always goes first in the restarted game).
vs 08
0-6, Abjure
vs 09
6-0, those are creatures.
vs 10
0-6, Turn 13 v Turn 15
vs 11
0-6, Orim's Thunder does it
vs 12
3-3, pinnacle only relevant card.
*reads*
They do.
Guess I was thinking of one of the other Blind formats. Thanks to the non-standardization of blinds, Karn-as-only-win is illegal in SOME of them, since the deck never wins a goldfish.
The mod shouldn't be at a disadvantage, you're right.
I'm not annoyed so much by his submission, but that he says he immediately thought of Abjure, and didn't mention it, even though my clear intent in banning Force of Will was to ban counterspells enabled by leylines. But you're right, I can't really blame him for that. It's my fault.
But this is exactly why a blanket counterspell rule would be extremely beneficial if it could be formatted in any way to be functional within the rules. It just plain SUCKS to spend any time at all thinking about a deck for a special week (or a specialty week itself for that matter), only to flat-out lose to someone who realized an obscure counterspell interacts with the special week in a way that allows them to counter something on turn 1 or turn 2.
I just hate that 1cc counter + bad threat = really high scoring deck this week, because I didn't have time to scour through all counterspells ever to determine all the ones that would be degenerate within the format.
It's not the first time it's happened, and it won't be the last, and it leaves a really bitter taste in my mouth every time it does.
In short, my mind has been changed. I don't think just the banned list is working for counterspells as well as it ought to. We shouldn't have weeks dominated by counterspells because the mod didn't find all the possible sounterspells that week that could be cheaper than people are used to dealing with in normal weeks.
Sorry I messed up, everyone.
How is that in any way problematic? You never HAVE to beat a goldfish... it's a nonissue.
Still, Abjure is a lot less oppressive than FoW, and good decks exist that make it a dead card -- if we ran this week again, I'm not convinced it would be amazing. And it didn't even win this week!
WhammWhamme: Can you give an example of a problem that it creates?
Karn?
Well, it sets the precedent of it being legal to enter a deck that can't win.
1. The 2CB rules apply to the restarted game. This means that each player starts the game with all cards in hand (other than the ones Karn exiled). But this also means that Karn is illegal, as the Karn player can — against at least one deck — exile enough lands prior to restarting to force a card in the opponent's hand to change zones before his or her second turn.
2. The normal rules apply. Each player begins the restarted game with all non-exiled cards in their library, then draws 7 and may mulligan. Because of the randomness rule, the player who didn't restart the game gets to choose the order of the cards in the libraries.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
It does absolutely no such thing. The rules are very explicit about the requirements with respect to being able to win, and they are that you must be able to beat at least one other legal deck. That's how it's always been; there's no such thing as "setting precedent" in 2CB.
That said...
Given that, I think it's ambiguous whether he's legal or not. If we interpret "before an opponent's second turn" as "before an opponent's second turn of any game", then he's clearly illegal (which is a pretty major & unfortunate oversight that affects several past rounds). If we instead interpret it as "before an opponent has taken two turns in a half-match", he's fine.
Looking at it from the perspective of the spirit of the rule, I (weakly) think he should be okay -- he definitely doesn't stop you from playing 2CC cards that shut him down. However, I do think that a literalist reading of the rules is more likely to come down in favor of the "before an opponent's second turn of any game" reading (though it's by no means clear cut).
So, I dunno what to say, really. I definitely don't think he's brokenly powerful, and I personally like him, so I would vote to modify the rules to allow him in the future, and I guess I think we should err on the side of acceptance when people submit ambiguously legal decks? But this is all rather iffy. What do other people think?
I have never liked the exact wording and legality of this rule, and have proposed changes to it in the past (other XCB long while back). It isn't that playing a bad deck is bad, it's what it allows.
Specifically, you could easily design a deck to cause an unfair points differential against a specific deck or archetype to hate them out of winning. By making a deck that beats one thing specifically and loses to everything else in an over-the-top way, you're purposefully skewing the results rather then competing.
Example: If "Show and Tell/Emrakul" became a more popular deck, then someone could legally submit Gainsay / Planeswalker's Fury to hate that deck out and lose to everything else.
All that said, I don't have a major problem with karn.
I just consider all such things to be fundamentally illegal, even if they technically are legal.
I believe all decks should have to beat a goldfish.
They are not currently, and never have been, held to such a standard though.
....except in backbuild, of all things
EDITS:
Dragondart :
I apologize if it offended you that I didn't mention Abjure.
I knew it wouldn't win (I accurately predicted my own 4 point spread)
Your deck even beat through it (but my cats outraced your beacon).
Please remember, though, that I'm at a full 6-7 day disadvantage of thinking up my deck.
Even with the niche cards that I worked on, I didn't come up with my deck until after I had posted them.
So sometimes I have to keep the little things to myself, so long as I don't think they're too overpowered (and I apologized for the foil that was).
I think VikingMetal4L vs TANE is one of the funniest matchups of the round.
Sure, Karn... make me exile my Transcendence and then restart the game.
I'm ok with that
Grid Finished; current corrections updated.
Reyemile does infact win this round. Huzzahs to him!
No longer staff here.