I apologize dearly for all of the recent delays.
Things should get back to normal soon.
This week will be insane to calculate.
Luckily most of the Ghostway decks lose on their draw, given how easy it is to destroy their mana source. Everything else will be quite a brain struggle.
Since this week took so long, I think it would be best to extend this next week's deadline similarly - due the 20th. This will give everyone plenty of time, and put us back on track. Changing the weekly deadline to wednesday would cause more problems.
Next week will be "Mix and Match" week.
Mix and Match
You may not submit a deck that contains more than one card of any given card type.
Example:
Land/Artifact/Creature/Instant/Sorcery is acceptable.
Artifact/Artifact/Creature/Creature/Instant is not.
Note that cards of two card types count for each card type.
You could not submit a deck with Black Lotus and Tidehollow Sculler, for instance, since you would be submitting two artifacts. You also could not submit an SSG/ESG with a creature, even if you could only use them for mana.
Think long, dig deep. Be original.
You have an extra couple of days to think about it.
"* You may not submit a deck that can cause more than one face down creature an opponent controls to change zones before the start of that player's 2nd turn."
Shouldn't 5 x Chromeshell Crab be illegal? Or changing control is different than changing zone?
It is different. The creature doesn't change zones, it only changes control.
It seems to have been the defining thing to abuse this round.
Also, cudos to mogg for proving that anything that gives an inch in rule 2.1a makes way for major abuse. (On the play, his deck wins - legally - before an opponent's first turn)
"* You may not submit a deck that can cause more than one face down creature an opponent controls to change zones before the start of that player's 2nd turn."
Shouldn't 5 x Chromeshell Crab be illegal? Or changing control is different than changing zone?
abilities can be used during the endstep. Triggered abilities would resolve then too, so on the play the following decks can steal/destroy 2 creatures before their opponent's 2nd turn.
Feyd Ruin (flipping 2 of Merieke, Rubinia and Mangara turns 1 and 2)
XScorpion, LSK, Bateleur, VikingMetal, Heart of Draco (2 or more Chromeshell Crabs)
knobbodi (can steal 1 with Crab, kill another with Marauder)
Intruder Alarm / Vesuvan Shapeshifter / Path of Exile / Tundra / Inkmoth Nexus 6-0: I'm not sure of what Intruder Alarm does here. Shapeshifter can be sacrificed against one of my two legends, and path to exile can kill the other. Still, I have a Nether Traitor and, most of all, Debtors' Knell, which also nullifies Intruder Alarm.
4-1: If I play first, I path Sheoldred. You do whatever (It doesn't matter). Next, I flip Alarm. So every creature tapped can't untap. Therefore, you can only do a max of 10 damage against me, but you will only do 6 in order to block my manland. When you play first, 10+10=20, so I'm dead.
I'll try calculating my other ones later. Looks... painful
12 Mogg Bedlam / Saprazzan Cove / Tidewater Minion / Time Vault / Wall of Deceit 1-4 - I think that Sheoldred on the play should kill his win condition (which is Bedlam), but he can still combo the Time Vault to stall. I'm not sure if it's legal, but I think so.
Infinite turns would cause a draw, but I can't take infinite turns, because I have to sacrifice Tidewater Minion to Sheoldred on one of my upkeeps. The result is 3-3.
Actually, on my play, at the end of your turn the ability returning my creatures from Ghostway and the ability allowing you to flip a creature face up both trigger. Since you're the active player, you put your ability on the stack and then I put mine on top, so mine resolves first. My creatures/lands return and I steal your Homeward Path and Sheoldred, Whispering One which allows me to easily win. 3-3.
I heard people say Chromeshell Crab, so I figured I'd toss in a Bullet that would beat it. What I love most: it's a 4/4, which beats the 3/3 Crab.
I love how bad the synergy is in my deck. Godhead of Awe with Progenitus makes an adorable 1/1 Pro Everything, The Saurian with the pair of Crabs looks boneheaded. I haven't done my results yet, but I don't that will hurt me, just look stupid.
"At the beginning of each player's end step, that player turns a face down creature he or she controls face up."
Neither player controls this ability. When does it trigger relative to other end step triggers? My suggestion is that the format trigger should occur before any other end of turn triggers.
I'm going to wait for the rules to get clarified, since the timing of Ghostway will significantly impact a number of my matches.
what do you need clarified?
if you Ghostway during an endstep they come back next endstep.
if they come back during your opponent's endstep his triggered abilities go on the stack first then yours, so yours resolve first.
so if you ghostway vs crabx5
his "At the beginning of each player's end step, that player turns a face down creature he or she controls face up." triggers
your ghostway triggers
ghostway resolves, you steal two crabs and he names crab
then he filps a crab and switches it with a crab
what do you need clarified?
if you Ghostway during an endstep they come back next endstep.
if they come back during your opponent's endstep his triggered abilities go on the stack first then yours, so yours resolve first.
so if you ghostway vs crabx5
his "At the beginning of each player's end step, that player turns a face down creature he or she controls face up." triggers
your ghostway triggers
ghostway resolves, you steal two crabs and he names crab
then he filps a crab and switches it with a crab
The problem is that triggered abilities without a controller don't normally exist in Magic.
I see two rulings which make sense:
1. Turning a face-down cards face up is a triggered ability that is put on the stack at the beginning of the end step, before any other triggered abilities.
2. Turning a face-down card face-up is a turn-based action that happens at the beginning of the end step.
The problem is that triggered abilities without a controller don't normally exist in Magic.
I see two rulings which make sense:
1. Turning a face-down cards face up is a triggered ability that is put on the stack at the beginning of the end step, before any other triggered abilities.
2. Turning a face-down card face-up is a turn-based action that happens at the beginning of the end step.
Or the third, each player controls the ability to turn one of their own things face up.
Also, I'm afraid I'm going to be nasty to knobbodi... I think his deck is illegal because it breaks the first special rule against an opponent whose deck is five copies of Mirror Gallery due to the flip-up not being optional. (Yeah, I know, I know... but rules is rules, right? Sorry. :-/)
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(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
Why my deck in particular? A lot of other decks have a way to kill / steal / deal with the other players' creatures
Also, the deck that you listed is an illegal deck because it can't win against a deck that only contains basic lands. So that's not a valid deck to compare mine to
if it starts face up can't you bounce a creature first and second turn?
wait feyd explained it in the other thread
Permanent cards start the game on the battlefield, and are thus not in your opening hand. Chancellors won't do their trigger, Leylines are face down 2/2 creatures, etc.
Also, I'm afraid I'm going to be nasty to knobbodi... I think his deck is illegal because it breaks the first special rule against an opponent whose deck is five copies of Mirror Gallery due to the flip-up not being optional. (Yeah, I know, I know... but rules is rules, right? Sorry. :-/)
I don't see how Galleries cause a problem. However, a deck of 5x Leyline of Singularity does cause knobbodi's deck to violate the rule.
I don't follow. Could you describe an example game to prove your point?
1. eot Chromeshell Crab switches places with the face down Progenitus
1. eot beacuse he doesn't have Progenitus anymore he now forced to flip a Riptide Survivor, causing him to discard two card on his first turn
the decks that would still be legal are
Feyd_Ruin
Error1
LSK
BronYAur
and possibly
Reyemile
Shogun 17
depending on ghostway timing
I don't think Callous Oppressor or those types are fast enough
Feyd_Ruin and Reyemile can't actually do anything to a creature until the second turn
don't know what I was thinking with LSK, ~Tilde~, and mogg. I think I got confused with what I was writing down
Feyd_Ruin
Error1
mogg
BronYAur
~Tilde~
and possibly
Reyemile
Shogun 17
This is the results for round 3.16 and the start for round 3.17
Round 3.16
This round was It's a Trap! week.
Entries
[grid]
[footer]
No longer staff here.
Things should get back to normal soon.
This week will be insane to calculate.
Luckily most of the Ghostway decks lose on their draw, given how easy it is to destroy their mana source. Everything else will be quite a brain struggle.
Since this week took so long, I think it would be best to extend this next week's deadline similarly - due the 20th. This will give everyone plenty of time, and put us back on track. Changing the weekly deadline to wednesday would cause more problems.
Next week will be "Mix and Match" week.
Mix and Match
You may not submit a deck that contains more than one card of any given card type.
Example:
Land/Artifact/Creature/Instant/Sorcery is acceptable.
Artifact/Artifact/Creature/Creature/Instant is not.
Note that cards of two card types count for each card type.
You could not submit a deck with Black Lotus and Tidehollow Sculler, for instance, since you would be submitting two artifacts. You also could not submit an SSG/ESG with a creature, even if you could only use them for mana.
Think long, dig deep. Be original.
You have an extra couple of days to think about it.
It is different. The creature doesn't change zones, it only changes control.
It seems to have been the defining thing to abuse this round.
Also, cudos to mogg for proving that anything that gives an inch in rule 2.1a makes way for major abuse. (On the play, his deck wins - legally - before an opponent's first turn)
No longer staff here.
Feyd Ruin (flipping 2 of Merieke, Rubinia and Mangara turns 1 and 2)
XScorpion, LSK, Bateleur, VikingMetal, Heart of Draco (2 or more Chromeshell Crabs)
knobbodi (can steal 1 with Crab, kill another with Marauder)
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
edit: normally I'd do my matches but these are a nightmare
I'll try calculating my other ones later. Looks... painful
Infinite turns would cause a draw, but I can't take infinite turns, because I have to sacrifice Tidewater Minion to Sheoldred on one of my upkeeps. The result is 3-3.
BWTeysa, Orzhov Scion
GWRhys the Redeemed
GUKruphix, God of Horizons
GRXenagos, God of Revels
GThrun, the Last Troll
GStompy
2| 3 4 3 3 3 4 3 3 3 3 3 X 6 3 3 | 36 (2.6)
That's not much better than if I had run Divine Intervention (which I seriously considered as a win-condition - as a 2/2 - with Sundial of the Infinite).
BWTeysa, Orzhov Scion
GWRhys the Redeemed
GUKruphix, God of Horizons
GRXenagos, God of Revels
GThrun, the Last Troll
GStompy
Actually, on my play, at the end of your turn the ability returning my creatures from Ghostway and the ability allowing you to flip a creature face up both trigger. Since you're the active player, you put your ability on the stack and then I put mine on top, so mine resolves first. My creatures/lands return and I steal your Homeward Path and Sheoldred, Whispering One which allows me to easily win. 3-3.
I heard people say Chromeshell Crab, so I figured I'd toss in a Bullet that would beat it. What I love most: it's a 4/4, which beats the 3/3 Crab.
I love how bad the synergy is in my deck. Godhead of Awe with Progenitus makes an adorable 1/1 Pro Everything, The Saurian with the pair of Crabs looks boneheaded. I haven't done my results yet, but I don't that will hurt me, just look stupid.
"At the beginning of each player's end step, that player turns a face down creature he or she controls face up."
Neither player controls this ability. When does it trigger relative to other end step triggers? My suggestion is that the format trigger should occur before any other end of turn triggers.
BWTeysa, Orzhov Scion
GWRhys the Redeemed
GUKruphix, God of Horizons
GRXenagos, God of Revels
GThrun, the Last Troll
GStompy
Additionally, the deck I wanted to enter:
Honden of Infinite Rage
Honden of Cleansing Fire
Honden of Life's Web
Lotus Vale
Ghostway
But that had too much synergy.
Why?
BWTeysa, Orzhov Scion
GWRhys the Redeemed
GUKruphix, God of Horizons
GRXenagos, God of Revels
GThrun, the Last Troll
GStompy
what do you need clarified?
if you Ghostway during an endstep they come back next endstep.
if they come back during your opponent's endstep his triggered abilities go on the stack first then yours, so yours resolve first.
so if you ghostway vs crabx5
his "At the beginning of each player's end step, that player turns a face down creature he or she controls face up." triggers
your ghostway triggers
ghostway resolves, you steal two crabs and he names crab
then he filps a crab and switches it with a crab
The problem is that triggered abilities without a controller don't normally exist in Magic.
I see two rulings which make sense:
1. Turning a face-down cards face up is a triggered ability that is put on the stack at the beginning of the end step, before any other triggered abilities.
2. Turning a face-down card face-up is a turn-based action that happens at the beginning of the end step.
BWTeysa, Orzhov Scion
GWRhys the Redeemed
GUKruphix, God of Horizons
GRXenagos, God of Revels
GThrun, the Last Troll
GStompy
Also, I'm afraid I'm going to be nasty to knobbodi... I think his deck is illegal because it breaks the first special rule against an opponent whose deck is five copies of Mirror Gallery due to the flip-up not being optional. (Yeah, I know, I know... but rules is rules, right? Sorry. :-/)
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
Also, the deck that you listed is an illegal deck because it can't win against a deck that only contains basic lands. So that's not a valid deck to compare mine to
wait feyd explained it in the other thread
I just realized, every singe deck that can kill or steal a creature on the first turn is illegal beacuse it can force two discards vs this deck
Progenitus / Riptide Survivor / Riptide Survivor / Whiteout / Whiteout
I don't see how Galleries cause a problem. However, a deck of 5x Leyline of Singularity does cause knobbodi's deck to violate the rule.
I don't follow. Could you please describe the example game which proves the point?
EDIT: I get it now - force opponent to turn Survivor face-up and discard.
BWTeysa, Orzhov Scion
GWRhys the Redeemed
GUKruphix, God of Horizons
GRXenagos, God of Revels
GThrun, the Last Troll
GStompy
1. eot Chromeshell Crab switches places with the face down Progenitus
1. eot beacuse he doesn't have Progenitus anymore he now forced to flip a Riptide Survivor, causing him to discard two card on his first turn
the decks that would still be legal are
Feyd_Ruin
Error1
LSK
BronYAur
and possibly
Reyemile
Shogun 17
depending on ghostway timing
Feyd_Ruin can certainly remove a creature.
LSK can also certainly remove a face-down creature.
Reyemile has Callous Oppressor to remove a creature.
~Tilde~'s deck has no way to remove a creature. It's legal.
My deck also has no way to remove a creature. It's legal.
BWTeysa, Orzhov Scion
GWRhys the Redeemed
GUKruphix, God of Horizons
GRXenagos, God of Revels
GThrun, the Last Troll
GStompy
Feyd_Ruin and Reyemile can't actually do anything to a creature until the second turn
don't know what I was thinking with LSK, ~Tilde~, and mogg. I think I got confused with what I was writing down
Feyd_Ruin
Error1
mogg
BronYAur
~Tilde~
and possibly
Reyemile
Shogun 17