The Poll
This poll and thread is to vote on and discuss potential upcoming Special Round formats for 5CB. I took what I believed to be the most promising. A couple I made minor changes to or renamed. I apologize if one you submitted or liked didn't make the list. Please don't take it personally, I just didn't want too many at once. An even dozen should be perfect to filter from
Poll closes in 4 days, so hurry.
I need it in before the start of next round.
The Specials
Explanations for each proposed special:
1. Free Lotus Week
At the beginning of each player's first main phase, that player adds 3 mana of any one color to his or her mana pool. (Every turn)
10
Additional Bans: n/a
2. Deckmaster Week
Your deck start in your library, rather then in your hand, in the order in which you submit them. Whenever you would shuffle your library, you may rearrange it how you choose instead. You may not force more than one card in an opponent's library to change zones before an opponent's 2nd turn.
3. Singular Duplicity Week
Whenever a nontoken permanent enters the battlefield under your control, if you haven't put a token that shares a name with that card onto the battlefield yet this game, put a token onto the battlefield that's a copy of that permanent.
5. It's a Trap!
All permanent cards you submit start the game on the battlefield face down as 2/2 creatures. At the beginning of each player's end step, that player may turn a facedown card he or she controls face up.
6. I <3 Enchantments
All enchantments cost one mana of any color less to play for each complete turn played. If an enchantment would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, shuffle it into its owner's library instead.
10
Additional Bans: n/a
7. Timmy
Spells cost {1} less to cast for each of his or her turns your opponent has completed.
If a spell is countered or an effect an opponent controls causes you to discard or exile a card from your hand, place it on top of its owner's library.
Whenever you have one or more spells in your hand which would be castable if not for an effect or ability your opponent controls, such as Meddline Mage, you may cast such spells as though those effects and/or abilities of those permanents did not apply.
8. Infinite Cards
At the start of the game, remove a card in your hand from the game. At the beginning of your draw step, add a copy of that card to your hand.
The starting player decides which card to remove first.
Rule 2.2a. only checks a deck's legality during games when that deck will play first.
9. Respray
When you submit your decklist, you may "respray" any or all of your cards. To do this, pick two colours. All instances of the first color in the card's mana cost and rules text are changed to the second color and all instances of the basic land type corresponding to the first color are changed to the basic land type corresponding to the basic land type corresponding to the second color.
10
Additional Bans: n/a
10. Vanguard Week
Each player chooses a Vanguard when he or she submits his or her deck. A vanguard will give you a bonus, extra ability, etc. Some may also give you a potential drawback. The Vanguards you choose from will be created by the moderator to better adapt to 5CB. It will be similiar to "choose your special from the list" week, but more flavored.
10
Additional Bans: n/a
11. Mix and Match
A deck may not contain any cards that share a cardtype. (ie: 1 land, 1 creature, 1 instant, etc)
10
Additional Bans: n/a
12. Pure Evocation
Player's cant cast spells or play lands. At the beginning of each player's upkeep, that player chooses a card in his or her hand with converted mana cost exactly equal to the number of turns he or she has started this game. That player puts that card onto the stack. (First turn you do a 1 CMC, next turn a 2 CMC, etc)
10
Additional Bans: n/a
-
Please vote only for the ones you wish to see within the next few weeks.
..and discuss
When I suggested the "It's a Trap!" format, I made the turn face up effect mandatory to make it easier to calculate for the moderator. But hey, more power to you.
When I suggested the "It's a Trap!" format, I made the turn face up effect mandatory to make it easier to calculate for the moderator. But hey, more power to you.
It shouldn't make that much difference - but the "may" makes it feel a lot more "Trappy"
Note:
Banned lists are subject to change.
This is the part we need real discussion on.
If you think of something absolutely badass, try to also think of how annoying it could be to play against it. If it's too annoying, it might be something worthy of a ban. Remember that your fellow players are clever too, so they'll probably think of that same bomb card you did, even if I didn't catch it.
In example:
I just realized Elesh Norn needs to be banned in "It's a Trap!" - otherwise it's easily a "who plays first" format.
Shelldock Isle is now banned in Deckmaster. Again, way too degenerating.
Hrm... I'm imagining "planes arranged in random order after all submissions are entered, every second roll is Chaos every third roll is a new Plane" for a Planechase game...
I've voted for lots of things because lots of them look fun, but several of these formats seem like they could be outrageously broken and some care may be required! (Deckmaster, It's a Trap and Pure Evocation in particular look fun but risky...)
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
--
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
Should Lich's Mirror be banned from the "Last Stand" format?
Nah, imo. I see that as more of a viable option than a degeneration. You need to devote at least 2 cards to cast it, 1 to play it. Then possibly 1 to suicide with, and 1-2 to kill with. It's susceptible to foil, etc, and all you gain is a normal Mirror effect. I actually see it weaker than in normal rounds since Mirror-Channel would take an extra slot.
Hrm... I'm imagining "planes arranged in random order after all submissions are entered, every second roll is Chaos every third roll is a new Plane" for a Planechase game...
It would be very interesting, but possibly hard to calculate. There wouldn't be any "that deck obviously wins" with the Chaos rolls thrown in. Not dismissing the idea, but that could be a definite week to have everyone help with the results depending on how the planes lay out, heh.
Ya know, I've always wanted to combine Planechase with the Archenemy cards. (and possibly even commander.) Like an all out "Planar Wars" or something. Do the planes, and then add something like:
"The first time you would lose the game in a round, instead Lich's Mirror and set a scheme in motion."
or, if with commander, add:
"When your commander leaves the battlefield for the first time due to damage from sources you don't control, or due to a spell or ability controlled by an opponent, set a scheme in motion."
If I could design how everything goes before hand, cutting out broken schemes and planes, and sit out that round since I'd have the foreknowledge, we could have quite a hellacious round. Thoughts?
Nah, imo. I see that as more of a viable option than a degeneration. You need to devote at least 2 cards to cast it, 1 to play it. Then possibly 1 to suicide with, and 1-2 to kill with. It's susceptible to foil, etc, and all you gain is a normal Mirror effect. I actually see it weaker than in normal rounds since Mirror-Channel would take an extra slot.
&&
It would be very interesting, but possibly hard to calculate. There wouldn't be any "that deck obviously wins" with the Chaos rolls thrown in. Not dismissing the idea, but that could be a definite week to have everyone help with the results depending on how the planes lay out, heh.
Ya know, I've always wanted to combine Planechase with the Archenemy cards. (and possibly even commander.) Like an all out "Planar Wars" or something. Do the planes, and then add something like:
"The first time you would lose the game in a round, instead Lich's Mirror and set a scheme in motion."
or, if with commander, add:
"When your commander leaves the battlefield for the first time due to damage from sources you don't control, or due to a spell or ability controlled by an opponent, set a scheme in motion."
If I could design how everything goes before hand, cutting out broken schemes and planes, and sit out that round since I'd have the foreknowledge, we could have quite a hellacious round. Thoughts?
Well, just a note, but my suggestion was that every second roll being Chaos and every Third a new plane was supposed to mean die rolls for a given player would go:
Well, just a note, but my suggestion was that every second roll being Chaos and every Third a new plane was supposed to mean die rolls for a given player would go:
1) Nothing
2) Chaos
3) New Plane
So it's still perfect information.
I think you mean that the second turn, and every three turns from then on (5, 8 11...), right? Every second turn sounds like every other turn to me.
The vanguards will most likely just be recreated, rather then using existing ones.
A lot of them just don't translate as well.
Either a handsize +2 means nothing, or it means you're getting 7CB.
Which means Gerrard's handsize -4 is quite the drawback, heh.
Although the MTGO vanguards aren't as bad.
But creating new ones would allow us to do things that are more focused on 5CB things.
How's this for an interesting format: You begin the game with 30 life and submit a deck of at least 3 cards. Each card above 3 in your deck reduces your starting life by 5 points (4 = 25, 5 = 20 and so on)
It could complicate it a bit, but it does add a very interesting element.
You'd know to throw in a City of Traitors or something if Plane X wrecks your deck.
If only there was a way to stay on a plane. Cause I'd want to live in Naar Isle
How's this for an interesting format: You begin the game with 30 life and submit a deck of at least 3 cards. Each card above 3 in your deck reduces your starting life by 5 points (4 = 25, 5 = 20 and so on)
I really like the concept, but as is, it could get pretty powerful.
I don't see anyone going lower than 5 cards, and getting 8 cards with 5 life is still nice.
Off the top of my head:
5 Chancellor of the Dross
2 Chancellor of the Forge
1 Leyline of Sanctity
Would kill anyone going over 5 cards before they could do anything (and win any dross-mirror types), and put the standard 5 carder at 3 life before his first turn. It'd be legal since the 5 card 20 life would stay the standard.
If we took it to:
4 cards = 40 life
5 cards = 20 life
6 cards = 10 life
I think it could be good. Each one has a real incentive. A 6th card is awesomesauce, but you know you're running a risk. It also discourages super fast aggro that loses steam since some people would actually take the 40 life.
What do you think?
edit: you could even go 3 cards = 100 life for the real gamblers.
It could complicate it a bit, but it does add a very interesting element.
You'd know to throw in a City of Traitors or something if Plane X wrecks your deck.
If only there was a way to stay on a plane. Cause I'd want to live in Naar Isle
That could get pretty powerful.
I don't see anyone going lower than 5 cards, and getting 8 cards with 5 life is still nice.
Off the top of my head:
5 Chancellor of the Dross
2 Chancellor of the Forge
1 Leyline of Sanctity
Would kill anyone going over 5 cards before they could do anything (and win any dross-mirror types), and put the standard 5 carder at 3 life before his first turn. It'd be legal since the 5 card 20 life would stay the standard.
If we took it to:
4 cards = 40 life
5 cards = 20 life
6 cards = 10 life
I think it could be good. Each one has a real incentive. A 6th card is awesomesauce, but you know you're running a risk. It also discourages super fast aggro that loses steam since some people would actually take the 40 life.
What do you think?
I think 5 life is less strong than 1 card to be honest. I'd probably (happily) take the 7 card hand at 10, and just card advantage you out. I think more like 6-7 (maybe 6.5 rounded) life per card. You could start at 7 life and 7 cards (more risky), 1 life and 8 cards (VERY risky), or 27 life and 4 cards etc...
That said, I think that week would have a really cool meta, and I'm all for it.
Also, given the example above, I think Chancellor of the Dross should be banned, as it's almost strictly better to add a card if it's him.
Also, I think the rules should be editted that you can't kill a 20 life, 5 card player in the first 2 turns (makes it more risky to get more cards).
This is a bit off-topic, and I'd be happy to move this to a new thread, but I wanted to get the attention of specifically you all.
A) Is anybody here intending on going to a PTQ for PT Philly?
B) Does anyone here play on MWS, and if so, do they have a tag they are willing to post? I often go by the tag Sir Muffin.
You guys seem like pretty good deckbuilders and I wanted to discuss builds/playtest.
I'll let everyone look over these, and see if anyone has any problems with any of them. I'm shooting for decently balanced, but not perfect, since you get to choose. It shouldn't matter if one is a little weaker than the rest, since you'll only the pick the one that fits you (but it shouldn't be "no one will play that" weak). I just don't want one that's a little broken that everyone picks.
This poll and thread is to vote on and discuss potential upcoming Special Round formats for 5CB. I took what I believed to be the most promising. A couple I made minor changes to or renamed. I apologize if one you submitted or liked didn't make the list. Please don't take it personally, I just didn't want too many at once. An even dozen should be perfect to filter from
Poll closes in 4 days, so hurry.
I need it in before the start of next round.
The Specials
Explanations for each proposed special:
1. Free Lotus Week
At the beginning of each player's first main phase, that player adds 3 mana of any one color to his or her mana pool. (Every turn)
2. Deckmaster Week
Your deck start in your library, rather then in your hand, in the order in which you submit them. Whenever you would shuffle your library, you may rearrange it how you choose instead. You may not force more than one card in an opponent's library to change zones before an opponent's 2nd turn.
3. Singular Duplicity Week
Whenever a nontoken permanent enters the battlefield under your control, if you haven't put a token that shares a name with that card onto the battlefield yet this game, put a token onto the battlefield that's a copy of that permanent.
4. Last Stand
Players start the game at 1 life. (You still can't win before op's 2nd)
5. It's a Trap!
All permanent cards you submit start the game on the battlefield face down as 2/2 creatures. At the beginning of each player's end step, that player may turn a facedown card he or she controls face up.
6. I <3 Enchantments
All enchantments cost one mana of any color less to play for each complete turn played. If an enchantment would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, shuffle it into its owner's library instead.
7. Timmy
Spells cost {1} less to cast for each of his or her turns your opponent has completed.
If a spell is countered or an effect an opponent controls causes you to discard or exile a card from your hand, place it on top of its owner's library.
Whenever you have one or more spells in your hand which would be castable if not for an effect or ability your opponent controls, such as Meddline Mage, you may cast such spells as though those effects and/or abilities of those permanents did not apply.
8. Infinite Cards
At the start of the game, remove a card in your hand from the game. At the beginning of your draw step, add a copy of that card to your hand.
The starting player decides which card to remove first.
Rule 2.2a. only checks a deck's legality during games when that deck will play first.
9. Respray
When you submit your decklist, you may "respray" any or all of your cards. To do this, pick two colours. All instances of the first color in the card's mana cost and rules text are changed to the second color and all instances of the basic land type corresponding to the first color are changed to the basic land type corresponding to the basic land type corresponding to the second color.
10. Vanguard Week
Each player chooses a Vanguard when he or she submits his or her deck. A vanguard will give you a bonus, extra ability, etc. Some may also give you a potential drawback. The Vanguards you choose from will be created by the moderator to better adapt to 5CB. It will be similiar to "choose your special from the list" week, but more flavored.
11. Mix and Match
A deck may not contain any cards that share a cardtype. (ie: 1 land, 1 creature, 1 instant, etc)
12. Pure Evocation
Player's cant cast spells or play lands. At the beginning of each player's upkeep, that player chooses a card in his or her hand with converted mana cost exactly equal to the number of turns he or she has started this game. That player puts that card onto the stack. (First turn you do a 1 CMC, next turn a 2 CMC, etc)
-
Please vote only for the ones you wish to see within the next few weeks.
..and discuss
No longer staff here.
You're right.
No longer staff here.
It shouldn't make that much difference - but the "may" makes it feel a lot more "Trappy"
Note:
Banned lists are subject to change.
This is the part we need real discussion on.
If you think of something absolutely badass, try to also think of how annoying it could be to play against it. If it's too annoying, it might be something worthy of a ban. Remember that your fellow players are clever too, so they'll probably think of that same bomb card you did, even if I didn't catch it.
In example:
I just realized Elesh Norn needs to be banned in "It's a Trap!" - otherwise it's easily a "who plays first" format.
Shelldock Isle is now banned in Deckmaster. Again, way too degenerating.
No longer staff here.
Good call though.
Is the Free Lotus thing the first main phase of the game? Or does it occur once each precombat main phase?
Every turn.
Ahhhhh. That's the life right there.
There's nothing like a Lotus in the morning; every morning.
No longer staff here.
Dream Halls week sounds fun too though. I don't see that up there.
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
Nah, imo. I see that as more of a viable option than a degeneration. You need to devote at least 2 cards to cast it, 1 to play it. Then possibly 1 to suicide with, and 1-2 to kill with. It's susceptible to foil, etc, and all you gain is a normal Mirror effect. I actually see it weaker than in normal rounds since Mirror-Channel would take an extra slot.
&&
It would be very interesting, but possibly hard to calculate. There wouldn't be any "that deck obviously wins" with the Chaos rolls thrown in. Not dismissing the idea, but that could be a definite week to have everyone help with the results depending on how the planes lay out, heh.
Ya know, I've always wanted to combine Planechase with the Archenemy cards. (and possibly even commander.) Like an all out "Planar Wars" or something. Do the planes, and then add something like:
"The first time you would lose the game in a round, instead Lich's Mirror and set a scheme in motion."
or, if with commander, add:
"When your commander leaves the battlefield for the first time due to damage from sources you don't control, or due to a spell or ability controlled by an opponent, set a scheme in motion."
If I could design how everything goes before hand, cutting out broken schemes and planes, and sit out that round since I'd have the foreknowledge, we could have quite a hellacious round. Thoughts?
No longer staff here.
I'm guessing you wouldn't let me do Plains, Island, Swamp, Mountain, Forest, MOMIR VIG?
Somebody who actually knows anything about Vanguards should suggest a ban list.
The vanguards will most likely just be recreated, rather then using existing ones.
A lot of them just don't translate as well.
Either a handsize +2 means nothing, or it means you're getting 7CB.
Which means Gerrard's handsize -4 is quite the drawback, heh.
Although the MTGO vanguards aren't as bad.
But creating new ones would allow us to do things that are more focused on 5CB things.
No longer staff here.
That's true. That could be an entire other thread. Discuss for a while, then another poll.
We could have +1 or -1 card be a huge drawback/advantage, as well as all the other crazy stuff Vanguards can do.
Well, just a note, but my suggestion was that every second roll being Chaos and every Third a new plane was supposed to mean die rolls for a given player would go:
1) Nothing
2) Chaos
3) New Plane
So it's still perfect information.
I think you mean that the second turn, and every three turns from then on (5, 8 11...), right? Every second turn sounds like every other turn to me.
I was thinking it meant:
1. nothing
2. chaos
3. plane
4. chaos
5. nothing
6. new plane. chaos.
which would get to be a headache, especially when the turn count goes high, heh.
The (1.nothing, 2.chaos, 3.plane) makes sense and is very doable.
No longer staff here.
Apologies for vagueness.
1st roll - nothing
2nd roll - chaos
3rd roll - new plane
4th roll - nothing
...and you can spend mana to roll, naturally.
How's this for an interesting format: You begin the game with 30 life and submit a deck of at least 3 cards. Each card above 3 in your deck reduces your starting life by 5 points (4 = 25, 5 = 20 and so on)
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
It could complicate it a bit, but it does add a very interesting element.
You'd know to throw in a City of Traitors or something if Plane X wrecks your deck.
If only there was a way to stay on a plane. Cause I'd want to live in Naar Isle
I really like the concept, but as is, it could get pretty powerful.
I don't see anyone going lower than 5 cards, and getting 8 cards with 5 life is still nice.
Off the top of my head:
5 Chancellor of the Dross
2 Chancellor of the Forge
1 Leyline of Sanctity
Would kill anyone going over 5 cards before they could do anything (and win any dross-mirror types), and put the standard 5 carder at 3 life before his first turn. It'd be legal since the 5 card 20 life would stay the standard.
If we took it to:
4 cards = 40 life
5 cards = 20 life
6 cards = 10 life
I think it could be good. Each one has a real incentive. A 6th card is awesomesauce, but you know you're running a risk. It also discourages super fast aggro that loses steam since some people would actually take the 40 life.
What do you think?
edit: you could even go 3 cards = 100 life for the real gamblers.
No longer staff here.
I think 5 life is less strong than 1 card to be honest. I'd probably (happily) take the 7 card hand at 10, and just card advantage you out. I think more like 6-7 (maybe 6.5 rounded) life per card. You could start at 7 life and 7 cards (more risky), 1 life and 8 cards (VERY risky), or 27 life and 4 cards etc...
That said, I think that week would have a really cool meta, and I'm all for it.
Also, given the example above, I think Chancellor of the Dross should be banned, as it's almost strictly better to add a card if it's him.
Also, I think the rules should be editted that you can't kill a 20 life, 5 card player in the first 2 turns (makes it more risky to get more cards).
A) Is anybody here intending on going to a PTQ for PT Philly?
B) Does anyone here play on MWS, and if so, do they have a tag they are willing to post? I often go by the tag Sir Muffin.
You guys seem like pretty good deckbuilders and I wanted to discuss builds/playtest.
Bans
The following cards are additionally banned in Vanguard:
Blood Moon
Chancellor of the Dross
Chancellor of the Forge
Commandeer
Dark Depths
Dust Bowl
Lotus Vale
Rishadan Port
Scorched Ruins
(This is to encourage outside-the-box thinking, and preemptive powerleveling)
"I am eternity. I am strength."
Starting Life: 25
Size of Deck: 5
Ability:
"I am the left when you look right. I am the shadow, absent light. I am the trickster."
Starting Life: 30
Size of Deck: 5
Ability:
"Understand nature, and you understand that all things are possible."
Starting Life: 40
Size of Deck: 5
Ability:
"My blade: aflame. My enemies: defeated."
Starting Life: 15
Size of Deck: 5
Ability:
"I am the wilderness that loses you. I am the thorn that cuts you. I am the earth."
Starting Life: 20
Size of Deck: 5
Ability:
"Knowledge is everything. Brawn is a figment of the weak mind."
Starting Life: 18
Size of Deck: 6
Ability:
"Death? I know nothing of it."
Starting Life: 20
Size of Deck: 5
Ability:
"In death, I have learned malice, hatred, and patience. Especially patience."
Starting Life: 20
Size of Deck: 5
Ability:
"My voice is the wilderness, savage and pure."
Starting Life: 30
Size of Deck: 5
Ability:
"I am the darkness which no light can pierce."
Starting Life: 20
Size of Deck: 5
Ability:
"All life is sacred. Except yours."
Starting Life: 30
Size of Deck: 5
Ability:
"Life is a commodity, and I - it's broker."
Starting Life: 20
Size of Deck: 5
Ability:
Any issues with any of these?
Anything you think needs to also be banned?
No longer staff here.