Sometimes solidly playable, sometimes underpowered, never (yet) truly unplayable - no single card has defined the history of 5CB more than Foil. And this week we saw a glimpse of a world without Foil.
Can I talk about game theory for a moment? Suppose I have a deck available to me which always wins on the play, but seldom on the draw. Is that a good deck? The answer is: it depends on what everyone else submits. If everyone plays a deck which always wins on the play then your choice doesn't matter. But if some people go in search of more points then their choice gives you an opportunity to find a deck which attempts to exploit their weaknesses without exposing too many of its own.
It appears, pleasingly, that a perfect balance was achieved between the two this round! Two players went for the safe option. Two players took the risk of letting their guard down slightly to do better on the draw. The result, as far as I can see, is a tie between the two approaches. But not the boring kind of tie where both win the same matches - the bolder decks did find the points they were searching for, but at the expense of suffering precisely the same amount of damage in return!
Next week I'm expecting to see a much broader field...
2 - bateleur - Black Lotus / Channel / Mycosynth Lattice / Titania's Song / Magus of the Tabernacle This build is better than FuriouslySleepingIdea's in a few narrow cases and worse a slightly larger number of narrow cases. But mostly they do the same thing and this time that proved to be the case.
7 - ced395 - Anurid Scavenger / Black Lotus / Black Lotus / Coercion / Wipe Away This is another deck which I feel is hard to justify in a Foil-less metagame. It does not auto-win on the play and there is no disruption it's happy to see on the draw.
8 - Starkiller2 - Black Lotus / Black Lotus / Auriok Salvagers / Path to Exile / Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre This is a deck I was expecting to see next week! This time round it was borderline underpowered due to being merely good on the play as opposed to staggeringly unfair. However, you did pick up more points than I expected due to being able to dodge some kinds of disruption on the play.
Player of the Month November 2010
1. ced395: 12
2. Mogg: 12
3. MrCowFart: 12
4. bateleur: 11
5. FuriouslySleepingIdea: 11
6. Promatim: 6
7. IOput: 3
8. Feyd_Ruin: 3
9. Starkiller2: 2
10. space_loner: 1
11. Taodd: 1
Resources
Rules
0. Overview
Five Card Blind (5CB) is a weekly Magic tournament, run entirely within this forum. To compete, players submit five-card decks which are played against each other. Scoring assumes optimal play, without randomness or concealed information.
1. Game Rules
1.1. Except for the changes described in these rules, games follow the rules of Magic.
1.2. Players' decks contain exactly five cards, which begin the game in hand. Players do not mulligan or sideboard.
1.3. Players' libraries begin the game empty. A player does not lose the game as a result of being unable to draw a card.
1.4. A random effect produces the result that least benefits the owner of the source of the effect.
1.5. Each player plays two games (one match) against each other player.
1.5a. Each player is the starting player once per match.
1.5b. If no player can win, the game is a draw.
1.5c. Games are played with perfect information.
1.5d. Games are played optimally; players attempt to win, draw, or extend the game – in that order.
2. Tournament Rules
2.1. Players submit their decks to the 5CB moderator.
2.1a. A player may submit multiple decks, but only the most recent deck is counted.
2.1b. An illegal deck is not counted. The removal of an illegal deck does not affect deck distribution (see Rule 2.4).
2.1c. The moderator determines the result of each match. Players may challenge results, but not after the results of the first round belonging to a new month have been posted (see Rule 2.5a).
2.2. Decks are subject to some restrictions.
2.2a. A player may not submit a deck that can – against any deck – win the game or force more than one card in an opponent's hand to change zones before an opponent's second turn.
2.2b. A player may not submit a deck that can't win both games of a match against at least one deck satisfying 2.2a and 2.2c.
2.2c. A deck may include any number of any card legal in Vintage (Type 1), with the exception of the following banned cards:
2.2d. A deck may include any number of any card that will become legal in Vintage upon release of a set that has been revealed fully and officially.
2.3. Points determine tournament standings.
2.3a. Players are ranked – first to last – in order of decreasing number of points.
2.3b. For each match, a player earns 3 points per game win and 1 point per drawn game. However, a player earns only 2 points for a split match (one win, one loss).
2.3c. A table of match results is posted each round. Its rows represent players and its columns represent opponents. Match results reflect the combined result of both games played in a match; 3 is a game win, 1 a drawn game, and 0 a game loss. 2 may be used instead of 3 to denote a split match. A player's points are listed at the end of his or her row.
2.4. In rounds of twenty or more players, players are divided randomly into equally-sized heats of n players, where n is the number of players divided by ten (rounded down).
For example, twenty-five players are divided into heats of twelve and thirteen.
2.4a. Except in the finals, a player only plays against players in his heat.
2.4b. The top four players of each heat advance to the finals, where they play again (with the same decks).
2.4c. Tiebreakers for advancement to the finals are as follows: number of matches in which a player wins both games, number of game wins, points scored against higher-scoring decks. If a tie is unresolved, the tied decks advance.
2.5. The player with the most POTM points over the course of a month is the Player of the Month.
2.5a. A month includes all rounds for which decks are due during that month.
2.5b. The top eight players – or more, if players are tied for the final spot – of rounds of less than twenty players, all players in rounds of eight or fewer players, and all players in the finals of rounds of twenty or more players earn POTM points according to their rank; The player with the highest score earns 8 POTM points, and each subsequent player earns one point less than the previous player, but can't earn less than 0 POTM points. Tied players earn equal points but are counted as separate players when calculating the points of other players.
Next Week Format: Banathon
Each card that has been used in a deck during the Banathon weeks will be banned until the end of the Banathon weeks, unless it's only effect is to generate mana. Examples:
-Black Lotus is not bannable because it's only effect is to generate mana.
-Karakas is bannable because it has an ability that is not a mana ability.
-Llanowar Elves is bannable because it is a creature and can attack and block. Banned cards:
Deck Submission Deadline:
Saturday, November 20th, 6:00 pm GMT.
Submit your deck to bateleur.
Please use this thread to discuss any aspect of 5CB. Also, consider a subscription to 5CB. Subscribed players who have not already submitted a deck receive a reminder PM about two days before deadline. PM bateleur, ced395, Mogg or Alpha Werewolf to subscribe.
--
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
Sigh...my first idea would have been a lot better. Oh well, it's a learning curve I guess.
Shouldn't Channel be banned? I just read through the last two weeks and thought Channel had been decided to be on the banlist.
Ugh, I have a text document full of ideas for this week. Maybe I should test them against each other. Given my scores, that's probably not going to help much :/ I was actually afraid of a very certain threat this week which wasn't played. There's always next week, I suppose.
On the draw he can't lock me out with arbiter cause i can just bounce it with karakas and lock him out. If he drops ajani i can kill it with my ajani and then we are back in the same situation. If he drops arbiter i bounce it and play my own, if he doesn't I play mine and either way he becomes locked out.
Just thought I'd point out that every deck except one is running black lotus.
And yeah, channel should be banned. Not only does it keep the rules more consistent but it's probably healthier for the meta. Being able to drop 3x large spells with a single card is asking for trouble in a metagame short on answers
With me vs MrCowFart we draw when I'm on the play. He can't play both ajani and arbiter the same turn, Karakas only makes white so he can't have 2 white and still have the needed red and blue mana to play it all turn 1. If he plays Grand Arbiter I curfew it. If he plays ajani I kill it, the best he can do wit hit kill my kor which ends up not mattering. Sapphire + factory means I can block with a 3/3 so Arbiter can never attack into it but I can only attack as a 2/2 so I can't swing into Arbiter either.
Also I think Starkiller2 draws with FuriouslySleepingIdea on the play. He makes infinite mana with the Auriok + lotus combo and plays Ulamog destroying a lotus that he gets back and replays. If FSI ever ends a turn with lich's mirror in play it'll die to annihilator and Starkiller2 will win. FSI can prolong the game indefinitely though by basically comboing off each turn to reset his life and end with nothing in play. Each time Starkiller2 can sac a lotus to brigand and get it back by sacing the other lotus for mana and replaying the one he got back to go infinite and end up with both in play again each turn. Decree can't stop this because the lotuses can be played second main after combat where a decree in play would just die to annihilator.
Starkiller2 also draws with Bateleur on the draw. The only thing Bateleur can do on the draw to stop Ulamog from winning is play the song, lattice, and magus but if he does all his own creatures (which will be all 3 of his permanents) will die on his upkeep as well and he won't be able to win either.
Also channel should be banned in everything forever and always. I've never seen it bring anything positive to any format ever.
For this round I really didn't expect the combos to so powerful. The mana is just too good and the answers are too terrible.
With me vs MrCowFart we draw when I'm on the play. He can't play both ajani and arbiter the same turn, Karakas only makes white so he can't have 2 white and still have the needed red and blue mana to play it all turn 1. If he plays Grand Arbiter I curfew it. If he plays ajani I kill it, the best he can do wit hit kill my kor which ends up not mattering. Sapphire + factory means I can block with a 3/3 so Arbiter can never attack into it but I can only attack as a 2/2 so I can't swing into Arbiter either.
I would play ajani and tap down your mox which means u can't activate your factory. You swing in with kor and bring ajani to 2 loyalty. Next turn I drop arbiter and just keep ur mox tapped while blocking your kor and building up loyalty till i can blow up your lands. Then i kill your kor and go for the win from there.
Also I think Starkiller2 draws with FuriouslySleepingIdea on the play. He makes infinite mana with the Auriok + lotus combo and plays Ulamog destroying a lotus that he gets back and replays. If FSI ever ends a turn with lich's mirror in play it'll die to annihilator and Starkiller2 will win. FSI can prolong the game indefinitely though by basically comboing off each turn to reset his life and end with nothing in play. Each time Starkiller2 can sac a lotus to brigand and get it back by sacing the other lotus for mana and replaying the one he got back to go infinite and end up with both in play again each turn. Decree can't stop this because the lotuses can be played second main after combat where a decree in play would just die to annihilator.
Furiously sleeping can play multiple brigands on his turn by repeatedly killing himself.
bateleur, I really don't understand the purpose of Magus of the Tabernacle in your deck. What does it accomplish?
I was about to say "it kills things", but actually you have a point there - it kills my things too! I think I need a correction or two.
Edit: Turns out it doesn't have much impact, although I spotted a processing error in my match with Taodd. Ironically I originally submitted the usual Shattering Spree, but having one actually wouldn't have scored me any extra points since all the matches are just about whether or not I resolve Lotus.
On the draw he can't lock me out with arbiter cause i can just bounce it with karakas and lock him out. If he drops ajani i can kill it with my ajani and then we are back in the same situation. If he drops arbiter i bounce it and play my own, if he doesn't I play mine and either way he becomes locked out.
I accept the need for a correction, but I'm not convinced by your suggested outcome. On the play, Mogg plays Arbiter and Ajani (which his deck can do and yours cannot). You can then bounce Arbiter if you choose, but if you do Mogg then locks down your land with Ajani and so you will be forced to used both copies of Lotus to cast a single threat. Assuming you choose Ajani, the game is a draw.
Being able to drop 3x large spells with a single card is asking for trouble in a metagame short on answers
Says the guy who chose not to run it and won the round.
Or perhaps you're talking about next week? To which I reply: we shall see!
--
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
I would play ajani and tap down your mox which means u can't activate your factory. You swing in with kor and bring ajani to 2 loyalty. Next turn I drop arbiter and just keep ur mox tapped while blocking your kor and building up loyalty till i can blow up your lands. Then i kill your kor and go for the win from there.
Except ajani doesn't tap anything down. Ajani stops something from untapping. Since the mox wouldn't be tapped yet (I simply play the kor unkicked) that does nothing and I kill ajani.
So it looks like Mogg's deck loses the mirror but wins against the field!
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(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
2 bateleur - Black Lotus / Channel / Mycosynth Lattice / Titania's Song / Magus of the Tabernacle
vs.
8 Starkiller2 - Black Lotus / Black Lotus / Auriok Salvagers / Path to Exile / Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
6-0 -> 4-1
Magus makes you sacrifice your creatures, too.
4 MrCowFart - Karakas / Black Lotus / Black Lotus / Ajani Vengeant / Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
vs.
6 Mogg - Ajani Vengeant / Black Lotus / Black Lotus / Grand Arbiter Augustin IV / Plateau
3-3 -> 4-1
As explained by you.
4 MrCowFart - Karakas / Black Lotus / Black Lotus / Ajani Vengeant / Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
vs.
7 ced395 - Anurid Scavenger / Black Lotus / Black Lotus / Coercion / Wipe Away
6-0 -> 4-1
Coercion Arbiter. Wipe Away Ajani.
5 Feyd_Ruin - Karakas / Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth / Thoughtseize / The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale / Mishra's Factory
vs.
7 ced395 - Anurid Scavenger / Black Lotus / Black Lotus / Coercion / Wipe Away
3-3 -> 1-4
Feyd_Ruin must avoid Coercion targetting Mishra's Factory. Feyd_Ruin can play Mishra's Factory or cast Thoughtseize (Coercion). If he plays Factory, then Wipe Away + Coercion discards it. If he Thoughtseizes Coercion, then ced395 casts Lotus, Lotus, Scavenger. Feyd_Ruin can play either Tabernacle or Factory. Regardless, ced395 can return Coercion, sacrifice Scavenger, then Wipe Away + Coercion.
6 Mogg - Ajani Vengeant / Black Lotus / Black Lotus / Grand Arbiter Augustin IV / Plateau
vs.
7 ced395 - Anurid Scavenger / Black Lotus / Black Lotus / Coercion / Wipe Away
With me vs MrCowFart we draw when I'm on the play. He can't play both ajani and arbiter the same turn, Karakas only makes white so he can't have 2 white and still have the needed red and blue mana to play it all turn 1. If he plays Grand Arbiter I curfew it. If he plays ajani I kill it, the best he can do wit hit kill my kor which ends up not mattering. Sapphire + factory means I can block with a 3/3 so Arbiter can never attack into it but I can only attack as a 2/2 so I can't swing into Arbiter either.
3 Taodd - Kor Sanctifiers / Mox Sapphire / Curfew / Black Lotus / Mishra's Factory
vs.
4 MrCowFart - Karakas / Black Lotus / Black Lotus / Ajani Vengeant / Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
If you lead with Sanctifiers, MrCowFart casts Arbiter. You Curfew, returning Kor Sanctifiers (you can't return Factory since Curfew costs +1). On his next turn, MrCowFart casts Ajani and locks down Factory until he has enough loyalty to win.
Essentially, Arbiter will always trade with Sanctifiers plus Curfew (since Factory alone is beaten by Ajani), and then Ajani will beat Factory.
If he Thoughtseizes Coercion, then ced395 casts Lotus, Lotus, Scavenger. Feyd_Ruin can play either Tabernacle or Factory. Regardless, ced395 can return Coercion, sacrifice Scavenger, then Wipe Away + Coercion.
Took me a while to make sense of this. The sentence beginning "regardless" is not literally true. If Feyd_Ruin plays Tabernacle first then ced395 will never get his first Lotus back, but that's OK because he doesn't need to cast Wipe Away in that case. In the case where he does need it, he has an extra turn and therefore is able to return an additional card.
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(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
A 2 card combo that allows access to potentially 20 mana first turn should not be allowed an exception to the rule. Ban channel, it's not a card that "it's only effect is to generate mana", it a card that until end of turn lets you turn your lifepoints into mana which means it's just as bannable as llanowar elves. There are plenty of broken expensive cards left that are ripe for abuse.
If someone desperately wants to run a massive mana deck, force them to invest in multiple lotuses or workshops. Or send me a pm and ill give you a 4-card combo that can net you up to 39 mana of two colors first turn or a 4 card combo that can give u infinite mana of any number of colors first turn. There are a ton of options left, theres no need for making a special case for channel.
A 2 card combo that allows access to potentially 20 mana first turn should not be allowed an exception to the rule. Ban channel, it's not a card that "it's only effect is to generate mana", it a card that until end of turn lets you turn your lifepoints into mana which means it's just as bannable as llanowar elves. There are plenty of broken expensive cards left that are ripe for abuse.
If someone desperately wants to run a massive mana deck, force them to invest in multiple lotuses or workshops. Or send me a pm and ill give you a 4-card combo that can net you up to 39 mana of two colors first turn or a 4 card combo that can give u infinite mana of any number of colors first turn. There are a ton of options left, theres no need for making a special case for channel.
With the functions of Channel now established, would you like to also make a case for why the card is detrimental to the ideal metagame?
With the functions of Channel now established, would you like to also make a case for why the card is detrimental to the ideal metagame?
It's not detrimental to the "ideal" metagame. However, this is definitely not the ideal metagame.
The metagame is already being dominated by black lotus (only one deck didn't play it). Channel is yet another card in that vein of being absurd at producing mana. There's no need to make an exception in the rules for this one card.
It's not detrimental to the "ideal" metagame. However, this is definitely not the ideal metagame.
The metagame is already being dominated by black lotus (only one deck didn't play it). Channel is yet another card in that vein of being absurd at producing mana. There's no need to make an exception in the rules for this one card.
Exactly what exception to which rule is being made?
Exactly what exception to which rule is being made?
unless it's only effect is to generate mana
That is not true for channel. It also lets you manipulate your life points. It's the same reason Grove of the Burnwillows would get banned if someone played it.
That is not true for channel. It also lets you manipulate your life points. It's the same reason Grove of the Burnwillows would get banned if someone played it.
I misunderstood you. I thought you were talking about banning Channel in Normal 5CB.
On reflection, though, I missed an obvious point - that the rule I submitted contradicts the examples, since being able to attack and block (as Llanowar Elves can) is not an effect.
On reflection, though, I missed an obvious point - that the rule I submitted contradicts the examples, since being able to attack and block (as Llanowar Elves can) is not an effect.
If you want the intent to be clearer you could phrase it like:
The only abilities/utility of a card, other than costs paid, can be mana production.
However I do think this policy of letting fast mana cards stay unbanned during banathon weeks is leading to an increasingly degenerate metagame. The huge quantity of games this week decided by who played first is a strong sign of this. I expect you will see this trend continuing in the following rounds..
If you want the intent to be clearer you could phrase it like:
The only abilities/utility of a card, other than costs paid, can be mana production.
However I do think this policy of letting fast mana cards stay unbanned during banathon weeks is leading to an increasingly degenerate metagame. The huge quantity of games this week decided by who played first is a strong sign of this. I expect you will see this trend continuing in the following rounds..
I'm afraid that generalizing it that way won't work. Black Lotus, for example, also had the utility of being an artifact for artifact-relevant abilities, and going into your graveyard for abilities that depend on that.
If you want the intent to be clearer you could phrase it like:
The only abilities/utility of a card, other than costs paid, can be mana production.
However I do think this policy of letting fast mana cards stay unbanned during banathon weeks is leading to an increasingly degenerate metagame. The huge quantity of games this week decided by who played first is a strong sign of this. I expect you will see this trend continuing in the following rounds..
The real mistake was letting anything stay unbanned. Ban it all and let Mogg sort out the survivors.
The real mistake was letting anything stay unbanned.
It's been pretty clear that there are some players who want to play a format where mana sources get banned. That's fine - and the support for this idea means it will likely happen as some future special format.
But it's a different format from the one running right now. You're not obliged to like it, but it is not a "mistake" in any sense.
As far as the wording issues go: yes, it's not perfectly worded. So far this hasn't actually turned out to matter. One player has asked a question about card legality, which didn't cause any kind of problems. If anyone else is unsure about particular cards they're welcome to post in the thread or PM me (or the mod of the relevant round).
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(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
It's been pretty clear that there are some players who want to play a format where mana sources get banned. That's fine - and the support for this idea means it will likely happen as some future special format.
But it's a different format from the one running right now. You're not obliged to like it, but it is not a "mistake" in any sense.
I don't think it's a mistake, it was a decision. However, I don't think that policy leads to very well balanced weeks. Admittedly, most special rounds are not balanced, but banathon is a month long affair so it's slightly more noticeable.
I would suggest at some point trying banathon with everything except for basic lands getting banned. It would be an interesting experiment and I think you would see a lot of cool decks emerge from the wood works.
I would suggest at some point trying banathon with everything except for basic lands getting banned. It would be an interesting experiment and I think you would see a lot of cool decks emerge from the wood works.
Yup, like I said in my previous post I do expect this to happen at some future point. Probably not the very next special format, because some variation is good.
(Amusingly, looking back at the previous Banathon I see that you actually played in it. I'd forgotten.)
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Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Can I talk about game theory for a moment? Suppose I have a deck available to me which always wins on the play, but seldom on the draw. Is that a good deck? The answer is: it depends on what everyone else submits. If everyone plays a deck which always wins on the play then your choice doesn't matter. But if some people go in search of more points then their choice gives you an opportunity to find a deck which attempts to exploit their weaknesses without exposing too many of its own.
It appears, pleasingly, that a perfect balance was achieved between the two this round! Two players went for the safe option. Two players took the risk of letting their guard down slightly to do better on the draw. The result, as far as I can see, is a tie between the two approaches. But not the boring kind of tie where both win the same matches - the bolder decks did find the points they were searching for, but at the expense of suffering precisely the same amount of damage in return!
Next week I'm expecting to see a much broader field...
1 - FuriouslySleepingIdea - Black Lotus / Channel / Decree Of Silence / Lich's Mirror / Rishadan Brigand
Solid choice of deck given the absence of Foil. The field wasn't completely unprepared, but you did enough.
2 - bateleur - Black Lotus / Channel / Mycosynth Lattice / Titania's Song / Magus of the Tabernacle
This build is better than FuriouslySleepingIdea's in a few narrow cases and worse a slightly larger number of narrow cases. But mostly they do the same thing and this time that proved to be the case.
3 - Taodd - Kor Sanctifiers / Mox Sapphire / Curfew / Black Lotus / Mishra's Factory
Your deck was generally quite underpowered, but Curfew was a nice bit of tech and got you most of your points.
4 - MrCowFart - Karakas / Black Lotus / Black Lotus / Ajani Vengeant / Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
Well spotted that this was still legal! Performed well, as you might expect.
5 - Feyd_Ruin - Karakas / Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth / Thoughtseize / The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale / Mishra's Factory
Five land as a deck is good because it dodges Foil. Here, Foil was not legal and your choice of a build with only one threat left you slightly vulnerable. You were saved from embarrassment only by Thoughtseize being unexpectedly excellent.
6 - Mogg - Ajani Vengeant / Black Lotus / Black Lotus / Grand Arbiter Augustin IV / Plateau
I'm not sure which of the three variants of this deck is objectively best, but the differences turned out not to matter in this field. Good choice of deck.
7 - ced395 - Anurid Scavenger / Black Lotus / Black Lotus / Coercion / Wipe Away
This is another deck which I feel is hard to justify in a Foil-less metagame. It does not auto-win on the play and there is no disruption it's happy to see on the draw.
8 - Starkiller2 - Black Lotus / Black Lotus / Auriok Salvagers / Path to Exile / Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
This is a deck I was expecting to see next week! This time round it was borderline underpowered due to being merely good on the play as opposed to staggeringly unfair. However, you did pick up more points than I expected due to being able to dodge some kinds of disruption on the play.
X| 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
1| X 3 6 3 3 3 3 6 | 22
2| 3 X 6 3 3 3 3 4 | 20
3| 0 0 X 0 1 0 0 3 | 3
4| 3 3 6 X 3 4 4 3 | 22
5| 3 3 4 3 X 3 1 3 | 15
6| 3 3 6 1 3 X 4 3 | 19
7| 3 3 6 1 4 1 X 1 | 17
8| 0 1 3 3 3 3 4 X | 13
1 MrCowFart (4): 22
1 FuriouslySleepingIdea (1): 22
3 bateleur (2): 20
4 Mogg (6): 19
5 ced395 (7): 17
6 Feyd_Ruin (5): 15
7 Starkiller2 (8): 13
8 Taodd (3): 3
FuriouslySleepingIdea and MrCowFart win 5CB #158!
Player of the Month November 2010
1. ced395: 12
2. Mogg: 12
3. MrCowFart: 12
4. bateleur: 11
5. FuriouslySleepingIdea: 11
6. Promatim: 6
7. IOput: 3
8. Feyd_Ruin: 3
9. Starkiller2: 2
10. space_loner: 1
11. Taodd: 1
Resources
Rules
0. Overview
Five Card Blind (5CB) is a weekly Magic tournament, run entirely within this forum. To compete, players submit five-card decks which are played against each other. Scoring assumes optimal play, without randomness or concealed information.
1. Game Rules
1.1. Except for the changes described in these rules, games follow the rules of Magic.
1.2. Players' decks contain exactly five cards, which begin the game in hand. Players do not mulligan or sideboard.
1.3. Players' libraries begin the game empty. A player does not lose the game as a result of being unable to draw a card.
1.4. A random effect produces the result that least benefits the owner of the source of the effect.
1.5. Each player plays two games (one match) against each other player.
2. Tournament Rules
2.1. Players submit their decks to the 5CB moderator.
2.2. Decks are subject to some restrictions.
2.3. Points determine tournament standings.
2.4. In rounds of twenty or more players, players are divided randomly into equally-sized heats of n players, where n is the number of players divided by ten (rounded down).
2.5. The player with the most POTM points over the course of a month is the Player of the Month.
Season 1
March 2005
Round 1 r_x, Greebo, zorbop
Round 2 Ankh-Morpokian
Round 3 Greebo
Round 4 Chimpanzee
POTM: Greebo
April 2005
Round 5 help im a bug, Draco9_1_1 (Only Creatures)
Round 6 Greebo (Only Creatures)
Round 7 spuzzem king
Round 8 bateleur
POTM: spuzzem king
May 2005
Round 9 Feyd_Ruin (Only Multicolor)
Round 10 jcsuperstar (Only Multicolor)
Round 11 Lone Warrior
Round 12 Wanderer359
POTM: WhammWhamme
June 2005
Round 13 Silver Seraph, Greebo (Titania's Song)
Round 14 WhammWhamme (Titania's Song)
Round 15 Tahn (Artist Tribute)
Round 16 Lone Warrior (Artist Tribute)
POTM: bateleur, Greebo
July 2005
Round 17 Shadowlord
Round 18 bateleur
Round 19 Shadowlord (Pay 19: Add 1)
Round 20 Greebo (Pay 19: Add 1)
POTM: Shadowlord
August 2005
Round 21 Greebo
Round 22 Greebo
Round 23 spuzzem king (One-Million Life)
Round 24 WhammWhamme (One-Million Life)
POTM: Greebo
September 2005
Round 25 Chimpanzee, Shadowlord
Round 26 dasheiff
Round 27 Chimpanzee (Orrery)
Round 28 Halinn (Orrery)
POTM: jcsuperstar
October 2005
Round 29 Beaker
Round 30 Feuerdrache, Wanderer359
Round 31 r_x (Dream Halls)
Round 32 Puzzle (Dream Halls)
POTM: Chimpanzee
November 2005
Round 33 bateleur
Round 34 Shadowlord
Round 35 jcsuperstar (Backbuild)
Round 36 jcsuperstar (Backbuild)
POTM: bateleur
December 2005
Round 37 bateleur
Round 38 Wanderer359
Round 39 WhammWhamme (Ban a Card)
Round 40 dasheiff, Lone Warrior (Ban a Card)
POTM: Beaker
January 2006
Round 41 Lone Warrior
Round 42 Silver Seraph
Round 43 Trojan (1984)
Round 44 Beaker (1984)
POTM: Lone Warrior
February 2006
Round 45 bateleur
Round 46 Halinn
Round 47 bateleur (7 Life)
Round 48 Chimpanzee (7 Life)
POTM: bateleur
March 2006
Round 49 armlx
Round 50 bateleur
Round 51 armlx (Leyline)
Round 52 Chimpanzee, Greebo (Leyline)
POTM: armlx
April 2006
Round 53 jcsuperstar
Round 54 armlx
Round 55 bateleur (Epic)
Round 56 Xyre (Epic)
POTM: jcsuperstar
May 2006
Round 57 jcsuperstar
Round 58 Pingele_Pats (Banathon)
Round 59 Amadi (Banathon)
Round 60 Solitaire (Banathon)
POTM: Pingele_Pats
June 2006
Round 61 Farik (One-Million Life)
Round 62 Wrath_of_Dog, zu_Faul (Leyline)
Round 63 Beaker (7 Life)
POTM: silicon
July 2006
Round 64 Pingele_Pats (Multi-Set)
Round 65 WhammWhamme, zu_Faul (Extended)
POTM: None
September 2007
Round 1 (Introduction)
Round 2 andelijah
POTM: None
October 2007
Round 3 Mogg
Round 4 Chimpanzee (Lorwyn)
Round 5 Meat Popsicle (Repeat Letters)
Round 6 Mogg (10 Life)
POTM: Mogg
November 2007
Round 7 Death_By_Beebles
Round 8 jcsuperstar (Mindslaver)
Round 9 Mogg (Thanksgiving Special)
Round 10 Mogg (Thanksgiving Special, Part Two)
POTM: Mogg
December 2007
Round 11 carrion pigeons
Round 12 Mogg (Later Alphabet)
Round 13 Mogg (Backbuild)
Round 14 Xyre (Backbuild)
POTM: Mogg
January 2008
Round 15 armlx
Round 16 Chimpanzee (Auras)
Round 17 Mogg (Doubling Season)
Round 18 carrion pigeons, Chimpanzee (Doubling Season)
Round 19 WhammWhamme (31 Bans)
POTM: Mogg
February 2008
Round 20 Chimpanzee
Round 21 Mogg (Combat)
Round 22 Mogg (Combat)
Round 23 Knowledge
POTM: Mogg
March 2008
Round 24 Mogg (Consecutive Names)
Round 25 Chimpanzee (Consecutive Names)
Round 26 The Mad Tapper
Round 27 The Mad Tapper
POTM: The Mad Tapper
April 2008
Round 28 The Mad Tapper (DC5)
Round 29 jcsuperstar (DC5)
Round 30 jcsuperstar (< 20)
Round 31 bateleur
POTM: bateleur
May 2008
Round 32 WhammWhamme (Leyline)
Round 33 Silver Seraph (Mana Market)
Round 34 bateleur (Helm of Awakening and Mirari)
Round 35 Alfred (Pre-entered Decks)
POTM: bateleur
June 2008
Round 36 bateleur, YuanTi
Round 37 WhammWhamme (Favorite Colors)
Round 38 YuanTi (Lotus)
Round 39 Mogg (Mogg Week)
POTM: WhammWhamme
July 2008
Round 40 bateleur (Mulligans)
Round 41 Mogg
Round 42 Chimpanzee
Round 43 ced395 (Even)
POTM: Mogg
August 2008
Round 44 WhammWhamme (Odd)
Round 45 Farik (No Bans)
Round 46 Mogg
POTM: Error1
September 2008
Round 47 ghweiss (Low-Scoring)
Round 48 theeguy (Backbuild, Part Two)
Round 49 Mogg
Round 50 Mogg (50 Life)
Round 51 Error1 (Landline)
POTM: Mogg
October 2008
Round 52 Shogun17 (Exploration)
Round 53 MT_Gunn (Multicolor Discount)
Round 54 Silkenfist (2-2)
Round 55 bateleur, WhammWhamme
POTM: Error1
November 2008
Round 56 Error1 (Colorless Creatures)
Round 57 Knowledge, Silkenfist (Legendary Creatures)
POTM: None
December 2008
Round 58 (Introduction)
Round 59 Halinn
Round 60 Halinn
Round 61 ced395 (Christmas Special)
Round 62 MyNameIsFourteen (New Year's Special)
POTM: None
January 2009
Round 63 Mogg
Round 64 Mogg (Nemesis)
Round 65 MyNameIsFourteen (Nemesis)
Round 66 Mogg
POTM: Mogg
February 2009
Round 67 Chimpanzee
Round 68 MyNameIsFourteen (Lovely Letters)
Round 69 Naphtali (Lovely Letters, Part 2)
Round 70 bateleur
POTM: bateleur
March 2009
Round 71 ced395, Chimpanzee
Round 72 ced395 (Activated)
Round 73 WhammWhamme (Activated)
Round 74 bateleur
POTM: Chimpanzee
April 2009
Round 75 Xyre
Round 76 Mogg, ngollon (Landline-Orrery)
Round 77 Mogg (Landline-Orrery)
Round 78 Mogg
POTM: Mogg
May 2009
Round 79 bateleur
Round 80 ced395 (Upwelling)
Round 81 Mogg (Upwelling)
Round 82 Halinn
Round 83 r_x_
New Player Round math_geek
POTM: Mogg
June 2009
Round 84 Kekekekeke (Block Party)
Round 85 FuriouslySleepingIdea (Block Party)
Round 86 Mogg
Round 87 Farik
POTM: Mogg
July 2009
Round 88 bateleur, dethwing (Infinite Cards)
Round 89 Farik, lOput (Infinite Cards)
Round 90 Farik, Mogg, Personman
Round 91 Madmanquail
Round 92 bateleur (Backbuild, Part Three)
POTM: Madmanquail
August 2009
Round 93 DragonDart (Backbuild, Part Three)
Round 94 lOput
Round 95 domogrue
Round 96 Mogg (Dream Halls)
POTM: ced395
September 2009
Round 97 Mogg (Dream Halls)
Round 98 ced395
Round 99 FuriouslySleepingIdea
Round 100 bateleur, dethwing, FuriouslySleepingIdea, Krashbot, Shogun17, VikingMetal4L (100 Turns)
POTM: FuriouslySleepingIdea
October 2009
Round 101 Shogun17 (100 Turns Revised)
Round 102 Madmanquail
Round 103 bateleur, bman65, ced395
Round 104 (Results) VikingMetal4L
Round 105 SumPhatGuy (Strawman)
POTM: ced395
November 2009
Round 106 bman65 (Strawman)
Round 107 bateleur
Round 108 Madmanquail
Round 109 bman65 (Respray)
POTM: bman65
December 2009
Round 110 Xyre (Respray)
Round 111 ced395
Round 112 Personman
Round 113 Hinotama, WhammWhamme (Niches)
POTM: bman65
January 2010
Round 114 Mogg (Niches)
Round 115 Madmanquail
Round 116 bmh, Personman
Round 117 bateleur (Suspense)
Round 118 VikingMetal4L (Suspense)
POTM: bmh
February 2010
Round 119 VikingMetal4L
Round 120 Madmanquail
Round 121 Madmanquail (Fork)
Round 122 Mogg, ~Tilde~ (Fork)
POTM: Madmanquail
March 2010
Round 123 Hinotama
Round 124 Madmanquail, Personman
Round 125 lOput (Library)
Round 126 lOput (Library)
POTM: lOput
April 2010
Round 127 tomsloger
Round 128 ~Tilde~, ced395
Round 129 Naphtali (Wordy)
Round 130 Feyd_Ruin (Wordy)
POTM: ced395
May 2010
Round 131 bmh
Round 132 bmh
Round 133 ced395 (Bargain)
Round 134 ced395, Madmanquail (Bargain)
POTM: ced395
June 2010
Round 135 jcsuperstar, WhammWhamme
Round 136 ced395
Round 137 Mogg (Timmy)
Round 138 Feyd_Ruin (Timmy)
POTM: bateleur
July 2010
Round 139 jcsuperstar
Round 140 Mogg, ~Tilde~
Round 141 Personman (Mana Market)
Round 142 Mogg (Mana Market)
Round 143 bmh
POTM: Mogg
August 2010
Round 144 ced395, Mogg
Round 145 Error1 (Duplicity)
Round 146 WhammWhamme (Duplicity)
Round 147 bateleur, Mogg
POTM: Mogg
September 2010
Round 148 Draco9_1_1 (Mostly Unbanned)
Round 149 Mogg (WUBRG)
Round 150 Powerrox93 (WUBRG)
Round 151 Mogg
POTM: Mogg
October 2010
Round 152 Promatim
Round 153 Anaklusmos / bateleur (Indigenous)
Round 154 BronYAur / bateleur (Indigenous)
Round 155 bmh
Round 156 bateleur
POTM: bateleur
November 2010
Round 157 ced395
Round 158 FuriouslySleepingIdea, MrCowFart(Banathon)
Rounds
Mogg: 36
bateleur: 26
ced395: 13
Chimpanzee: 13
WhammWhamme: 13
jcsuperstar: 10
Greebo: 8
Madmanquail: 8
Farik: 5
Halinn: 5
Personman: 5
bmh: 5
armlx: 4
Lone Warrior: 4
lOput: 4
Shadowlord: 4
VikingMetal4L: 4
Xyre: 4
~Tilde~: 3
Beaker: 3
bman65: 3
Draco9_1_1: 3
Error1: 3
Feyd_Ruin: 3
FuriouslySleepingIdea: 3
MyNameIsFourteen: 3
r_x: 3
Shogun17: 3
Silver Seraph: 3
The Mad Tapper: 3
Wanderer359: 3
carrion pigeons: 2
dasheiff: 2
dethwing: 2
Hinotama: 2
Knowledge: 2
Naphtali: 2
Pingele_Pats: 2
Silkenfist: 2
spuzzem king: 2
YuanTi: 2
zu_Faul: 2
BronYAur: 1
Alfred: 1
Amadi: 1
andelijah: 1
Ankh-Morpokian: 1
Death_By_Beebles: 1
domogrue: 1
DragonDart: 1
Feuerdrache: 1
ghweiss: 1
help im a bug: 1
Kekekekeke: 1
Krashbot: 1
math_geek: 1
Meat Popsicle: 1
MT_Gunn: 1
ngollon: 1
Powerrox93: 1
Promatim: 1
Puzzle: 1
Solitaire: 1
SumPhatGuy: 1
Tahn: 1
theeguy: 1
tomsloger: 1
Trojan: 1
Wrath_of_Dog: 1
zorbop: 1
Anaklusmos: 1
POTM
Mogg: 14
bateleur: 8
ced395: 5
Greebo: 3
bman65: 2
Chimpanzee: 2
Error1: 2
jcsuperstar: 2
Madmanquail: 2
WhammWhamme: 2
armlx: 1
Beaker: 1
bmh: 1
FuriouslySleepingIdea: 1
Lone Warrior: 1
lOput: 1
Pingele_Pats: 1
Shadowlord: 1
silicon: 1
spuzzem king: 1
The Mad Tapper: 1
Dom Camus
Five Card Blind
Nick Chandler-Klein
Three Card Blind: A Whole Different Format (Part 1)
Three Card Blind: A Whole Different Format (Part 2)
Three Card Blind: A Whole Different Format (Part 3)
Alex Hoffman
Going Blind: A First Look at Lands
Going Blind: A Non-Basic Approach
Going Blind: Metagaming – Being Overly Analytical
Going Blind: Metagaming #2 – All Decked Out
Going Blind: XCB Metagaming – A Prolonged Conclusion
Forum Articles
Madmanquail
5CB Strategy
Mogg
5CB Strategy
Next Week
Format: Banathon
Each card that has been used in a deck during the Banathon weeks will be banned until the end of the Banathon weeks, unless it's only effect is to generate mana. Examples:
-Black Lotus is not bannable because it's only effect is to generate mana.
-Karakas is bannable because it has an ability that is not a mana ability.
-Llanowar Elves is bannable because it is a creature and can attack and block.
Banned cards:
Chalice of the Void
Eater of Days
Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
Smokestack
Foil
Nether Spirit
Great Sable Stag
Kodama of the North Tree
Aura of Silence
Soldevi Digger
Leyline of Anticipation
Meddling Mage
Spell Pierce
Firestorm
Daze
Manabond
Shelldock Isle
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Basking Rootwalla
Force Spike
Anvil of Bogardan
Elvish Spirit Guide
Lodestone Golem
Culling Scales
Darksteel Ingot
Rotting Rats
Leyline of the Void
Frost Titan
Mesmeric Fiend
Yawgmoth's Will
Decree Of Silence
Lich's Mirror
Rishadan Brigand
Mycosynth Lattice
Titania's Song
Magus of the Tabernacle
Kor Sanctifiers
Curfew
Mishra's Factory
Karakas
Ajani Vengeant
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Thoughtseize
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Anurid Scavenger
Coercion
Wipe Away
Auriok Salvagers
Path to Exile
Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
Saturday, November 20th, 6:00 pm GMT.
Submit your deck to bateleur.
Please use this thread to discuss any aspect of 5CB. Also, consider a subscription to 5CB. Subscribed players who have not already submitted a deck receive a reminder PM about two days before deadline. PM bateleur, ced395, Mogg or Alpha Werewolf to subscribe.
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
Shouldn't Channel be banned? I just read through the last two weeks and thought Channel had been decided to be on the banlist.
Ugh, I have a text document full of ideas for this week. Maybe I should test them against each other. Given my scores, that's probably not going to help much :/ I was actually afraid of a very certain threat this week which wasn't played. There's always next week, I suppose.
BWTeysa, Orzhov Scion
GWRhys the Redeemed
GUKruphix, God of Horizons
GRXenagos, God of Revels
GThrun, the Last Troll
GStompy
On the play I lock him out with arbiter.
On the draw he can't lock me out with arbiter cause i can just bounce it with karakas and lock him out. If he drops ajani i can kill it with my ajani and then we are back in the same situation. If he drops arbiter i bounce it and play my own, if he doesn't I play mine and either way he becomes locked out.
Just thought I'd point out that every deck except one is running black lotus.
And yeah, channel should be banned. Not only does it keep the rules more consistent but it's probably healthier for the meta. Being able to drop 3x large spells with a single card is asking for trouble in a metagame short on answers
Also I think Starkiller2 draws with FuriouslySleepingIdea on the play. He makes infinite mana with the Auriok + lotus combo and plays Ulamog destroying a lotus that he gets back and replays. If FSI ever ends a turn with lich's mirror in play it'll die to annihilator and Starkiller2 will win. FSI can prolong the game indefinitely though by basically comboing off each turn to reset his life and end with nothing in play. Each time Starkiller2 can sac a lotus to brigand and get it back by sacing the other lotus for mana and replaying the one he got back to go infinite and end up with both in play again each turn. Decree can't stop this because the lotuses can be played second main after combat where a decree in play would just die to annihilator.
Starkiller2 also draws with Bateleur on the draw. The only thing Bateleur can do on the draw to stop Ulamog from winning is play the song, lattice, and magus but if he does all his own creatures (which will be all 3 of his permanents) will die on his upkeep as well and he won't be able to win either.
Also channel should be banned in everything forever and always. I've never seen it bring anything positive to any format ever.
For this round I really didn't expect the combos to so powerful. The mana is just too good and the answers are too terrible.
Furiously sleeping can play multiple brigands on his turn by repeatedly killing himself.
I was about to say "it kills things", but actually you have a point there - it kills my things too! I think I need a correction or two.
Edit: Turns out it doesn't have much impact, although I spotted a processing error in my match with Taodd. Ironically I originally submitted the usual Shattering Spree, but having one actually wouldn't have scored me any extra points since all the matches are just about whether or not I resolve Lotus.
I accept the need for a correction, but I'm not convinced by your suggested outcome. On the play, Mogg plays Arbiter and Ajani (which his deck can do and yours cannot). You can then bounce Arbiter if you choose, but if you do Mogg then locks down your land with Ajani and so you will be forced to used both copies of Lotus to cast a single threat. Assuming you choose Ajani, the game is a draw.
Says the guy who chose not to run it and won the round.
Or perhaps you're talking about next week? To which I reply: we shall see!
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
Except ajani doesn't tap anything down. Ajani stops something from untapping. Since the mox wouldn't be tapped yet (I simply play the kor unkicked) that does nothing and I kill ajani.
Ah I didn't see that lol. That deck is so rediculously OP.
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
Results
1 FuriouslySleepingIdea - Black Lotus / Channel / Decree Of Silence / Lich's Mirror / Rishadan Brigand
2 bateleur - Black Lotus / Channel / Mycosynth Lattice / Titania's Song / Magus of the Tabernacle
3 Taodd - Kor Sanctifiers / Mox Sapphire / Curfew / Black Lotus / Mishra's Factory
4 MrCowFart - Karakas / Black Lotus / Black Lotus / Ajani Vengeant / Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
5 Feyd_Ruin - Karakas / Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth / Thoughtseize / The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale / Mishra's Factory
6 Mogg - Ajani Vengeant / Black Lotus / Black Lotus / Grand Arbiter Augustin IV / Plateau
7 ced395 - Anurid Scavenger / Black Lotus / Black Lotus / Coercion / Wipe Away
8 Starkiller2 - Black Lotus / Black Lotus / Auriok Salvagers / Path to Exile / Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
X| 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
1| X 3 6 3 3 3 3 6 | 22
2| 3 X 6 3 3 3 3 4 | 20
3| 0 0 X 0 1 0 0 3 | 3
4| 3 3 6 X 3 4 4 3 | 22
5| 3 3 4 3 X 3 1 3 | 15
6| 3 3 6 1 3 X 4 3 | 19
7| 3 3 6 1 4 1 X 1 | 17
8| 0 1 3 3 3 3 4 X | 13
1 MrCowFart (4): 22
1 FuriouslySleepingIdea (1): 22
3 bateleur (2): 20
4 Mogg (6): 19
5 ced395 (7): 17
6 Feyd_Ruin (5): 15
7 Starkiller2 (8): 13
8 Taodd (3): 3
Explanations
2 bateleur - Black Lotus / Channel / Mycosynth Lattice / Titania's Song / Magus of the Tabernacle
vs.
8 Starkiller2 - Black Lotus / Black Lotus / Auriok Salvagers / Path to Exile / Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
6-0 -> 4-1
Magus makes you sacrifice your creatures, too.
4 MrCowFart - Karakas / Black Lotus / Black Lotus / Ajani Vengeant / Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
vs.
6 Mogg - Ajani Vengeant / Black Lotus / Black Lotus / Grand Arbiter Augustin IV / Plateau
3-3 -> 4-1
As explained by you.
4 MrCowFart - Karakas / Black Lotus / Black Lotus / Ajani Vengeant / Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
vs.
7 ced395 - Anurid Scavenger / Black Lotus / Black Lotus / Coercion / Wipe Away
6-0 -> 4-1
Coercion Arbiter. Wipe Away Ajani.
5 Feyd_Ruin - Karakas / Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth / Thoughtseize / The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale / Mishra's Factory
vs.
7 ced395 - Anurid Scavenger / Black Lotus / Black Lotus / Coercion / Wipe Away
3-3 -> 1-4
Feyd_Ruin must avoid Coercion targetting Mishra's Factory. Feyd_Ruin can play Mishra's Factory or cast Thoughtseize (Coercion). If he plays Factory, then Wipe Away + Coercion discards it. If he Thoughtseizes Coercion, then ced395 casts Lotus, Lotus, Scavenger. Feyd_Ruin can play either Tabernacle or Factory. Regardless, ced395 can return Coercion, sacrifice Scavenger, then Wipe Away + Coercion.
6 Mogg - Ajani Vengeant / Black Lotus / Black Lotus / Grand Arbiter Augustin IV / Plateau
vs.
7 ced395 - Anurid Scavenger / Black Lotus / Black Lotus / Coercion / Wipe Away
6-0 -> 4-1
Same as 4-7.
3 Taodd - Kor Sanctifiers / Mox Sapphire / Curfew / Black Lotus / Mishra's Factory
vs.
4 MrCowFart - Karakas / Black Lotus / Black Lotus / Ajani Vengeant / Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
If you lead with Sanctifiers, MrCowFart casts Arbiter. You Curfew, returning Kor Sanctifiers (you can't return Factory since Curfew costs +1). On his next turn, MrCowFart casts Ajani and locks down Factory until he has enough loyalty to win.
Essentially, Arbiter will always trade with Sanctifiers plus Curfew (since Factory alone is beaten by Ajani), and then Ajani will beat Factory.
BWTeysa, Orzhov Scion
GWRhys the Redeemed
GUKruphix, God of Horizons
GRXenagos, God of Revels
GThrun, the Last Troll
GStompy
Thanks!
Took me a while to make sense of this. The sentence beginning "regardless" is not literally true. If Feyd_Ruin plays Tabernacle first then ced395 will never get his first Lotus back, but that's OK because he doesn't need to cast Wipe Away in that case. In the case where he does need it, he has an extra turn and therefore is able to return an additional card.
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
If someone desperately wants to run a massive mana deck, force them to invest in multiple lotuses or workshops. Or send me a pm and ill give you a 4-card combo that can net you up to 39 mana of two colors first turn or a 4 card combo that can give u infinite mana of any number of colors first turn. There are a ton of options left, theres no need for making a special case for channel.
With the functions of Channel now established, would you like to also make a case for why the card is detrimental to the ideal metagame?
BWTeysa, Orzhov Scion
GWRhys the Redeemed
GUKruphix, God of Horizons
GRXenagos, God of Revels
GThrun, the Last Troll
GStompy
It's not detrimental to the "ideal" metagame. However, this is definitely not the ideal metagame.
The metagame is already being dominated by black lotus (only one deck didn't play it). Channel is yet another card in that vein of being absurd at producing mana. There's no need to make an exception in the rules for this one card.
Exactly what exception to which rule is being made?
BWTeysa, Orzhov Scion
GWRhys the Redeemed
GUKruphix, God of Horizons
GRXenagos, God of Revels
GThrun, the Last Troll
GStompy
That is not true for channel. It also lets you manipulate your life points. It's the same reason Grove of the Burnwillows would get banned if someone played it.
I misunderstood you. I thought you were talking about banning Channel in Normal 5CB.
As to your comparison, Channel and Grove of the Burnwillows are not equivalent. I've addressed this issue before - for Grove of the Burnwillows, gaining life is an effect; for Channel, paying life is a cost.
On reflection, though, I missed an obvious point - that the rule I submitted contradicts the examples, since being able to attack and block (as Llanowar Elves can) is not an effect.
BWTeysa, Orzhov Scion
GWRhys the Redeemed
GUKruphix, God of Horizons
GRXenagos, God of Revels
GThrun, the Last Troll
GStompy
I'll be able to go back to modding next week (busy weekend this week).
My blog.
If you want the intent to be clearer you could phrase it like:
The only abilities/utility of a card, other than costs paid, can be mana production.
However I do think this policy of letting fast mana cards stay unbanned during banathon weeks is leading to an increasingly degenerate metagame. The huge quantity of games this week decided by who played first is a strong sign of this. I expect you will see this trend continuing in the following rounds..
I'm afraid that generalizing it that way won't work. Black Lotus, for example, also had the utility of being an artifact for artifact-relevant abilities, and going into your graveyard for abilities that depend on that.
My blog.
The real mistake was letting anything stay unbanned. Ban it all and let Mogg sort out the survivors.
It's been pretty clear that there are some players who want to play a format where mana sources get banned. That's fine - and the support for this idea means it will likely happen as some future special format.
But it's a different format from the one running right now. You're not obliged to like it, but it is not a "mistake" in any sense.
As far as the wording issues go: yes, it's not perfectly worded. So far this hasn't actually turned out to matter. One player has asked a question about card legality, which didn't cause any kind of problems. If anyone else is unsure about particular cards they're welcome to post in the thread or PM me (or the mod of the relevant round).
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
I don't think it's a mistake, it was a decision. However, I don't think that policy leads to very well balanced weeks. Admittedly, most special rounds are not balanced, but banathon is a month long affair so it's slightly more noticeable.
I would suggest at some point trying banathon with everything except for basic lands getting banned. It would be an interesting experiment and I think you would see a lot of cool decks emerge from the wood works.
Yup, like I said in my previous post I do expect this to happen at some future point. Probably not the very next special format, because some variation is good.
(Amusingly, looking back at the previous Banathon I see that you actually played in it. I'd forgotten.)
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>